Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates/Slush pile/2014

2013 DotM slush pile for 2014 (current) 2015

Place: Taxila
Blurb: A group of archaeological sites, once a great center of Greek-influenced Buddhist culture and Silk Road trade. Today is is a World Heritage Site and one of Pakistan's main tourist destinations. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: February 2015
Nominated by: Saqib (talk) 01:51, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Let's feature it instead of Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates#Kirthar National Park. Repeating what I said above: When it comes to Pakistan, I'm only in favour of featuring well known, popular and most visited sites. Kirthar National Park is not popular and only few visit it whereas Taxila is an important archaeological sites of South Asia and a UNESCO World Heritage Site, not to mention, is counted amongst the top visited tourist sites of Pakistan. The article is guide but I'll work on its expansion and will make it more polished, detailed and informative. I'm pretty sure this article will generate a good number of visitors to WV and will be helpful to those visiting Taxila.

Nomination
  • Almost - I would like some more places to eat and drink, coordinates for everything, a few more photos further down plus an embedded dynamic (or a static map). ϒpsilon (talk) 05:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Close - One of the main sights in the country and one of the best of its kind in Asia, so the topic sure has my support, although not as a replacement for Kirthar but as a next Pakistani destination on feature. Here are my thoughts on what should be expanded. It needs more listings to really be a good guide, and the listings are still incomplete (contact details, prices). The thing is that Taxila is in fact also a modern day town, with the ruins as a main draw - but that is hardly clear from the article. It's not remote, like Mohenjodaro, with hardly any places to eat. I imagine many might visit as a day-trip from nearby Islamabad, but that doesn't mean we should simply ignore our normal standards for Taxila as a destination, I guess? "There are plenty of places to eat" is okay for a usable article, but a featured guide should ideally have a better selection of places (now there are only two, with one being a double listing for a hotel-restaurant) or at least better pointers as to in which streets to search and descriptions of available foods and prices. If it's indeed common to visit as a day trip from Islamabad, some more detailed information on transport there and back seems useful. Getting around is not fully helpful yet: the article suggests trying to find a bike but is vague about if they can reasonably be found. Same with the scooters: are you saying most visitors are just locals from Islamabad and other nearby towns? Is it possible then to rent a bike or scooter there? Get out can easily be expanded. It's great that we have our own (not copied) version of a description of the heritage site, but it's actually the practicalities that can set our Taxila guide apart from other sources about the ruins, as several have detailed information about the historic sites. Some work to do, but this could become a really great article :-) JuliasTravels (talk) 15:04, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very promising, but needs more work So far, I agree with the others. There's a large amount of information in this guide, but it looks like it will all need copy editing. I've worked through the sections preceding "See" and the text box in "See," but it will take me a while to work through the rest of the article. I also agree that while the archeological sites are covered admirably, the sections below "See" seem very sparse in comparison. I think this will be a great article, but right now, it's a diamond in the rough. There's now enough support to run Kirthar National Park as is, but this article will take more work, so that may influence the order in which these articles are featured. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:57, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ypsi, Julias and Ikan: in your opinion, what's the state of this article now? It looks like there have been some substantial changes made since nomination, but it also appears that Saqib is inactive for the time being, so the prospects for any further edits that may be needed (beyond copyediting and other tweaks that can be done by anyone regardless of local knowledge) are uncertain. Would any of you like to amend your votes, or should Taxila be slushed? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:13, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
For the record: Yes, I haven't touched the article since it was discussed it cannot be replace by Kirthar but if it can be, I can resume working on it. --Saqib (talk) 17:03, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, Saqib but if "eateries are plentiful and basic Pakistani food can be found anywhere in town." I would expect there to be more than just two of them listed. After all, Eat is one of our four most important sections — the sections that must have some content for the article to be even usable.
Taking into consideration that the article is chiefly about a large archeological site rather than a town itself, the rest of the article is in a reasonable shape (but things like Get around could likely still be expanded) . Some coordinates are also still missing. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:06, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I feel rather the same. There's indeed no consensus for replacing Kirthar, but Taxila seems like a great next Pakistani destination, so I do hope you'll continue to work on it, Saqib :-) My earlier remarks have not yet been addressed. The article is nicely improved as far as the archaeological site is concerned, but the rest of the (modern) city description remains undeveloped. That said, if Saqib still has an interest to do it later, I'm fine with leaving it up and not slushing. JuliasTravels (talk) 13:53, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Julia, ϒpsi, IK, and Andrew: Okay guys, I'm sorry for being so selfish and self-serving. I think lately I lacked consideration for others so lets feature Kirthar as planned. I was reading my comments above in Kirthar nomination and it was kind of funny and babyishness comments made by me. Anyways I will resume working on Kirthat article to improve it further as I can so lets slush this nomination. --Saqib (talk) 11:08, 4 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Don't feel bad, Saqib. You do so much work for this site and Commons! I hope you come back to this article before too long, as it seems like a great place to visit, and I'd very much like to see it featured in due time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:22, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Look at it from the bright side. Here we have a possible OtBP candidate for the 2015-16 winter season! ϒpsilon (talk) 21:06, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In early November, the community was asked if the progress made on this article since nomination was enough to make them overturn their Oppose votes; the response was that more work needed to be done. Six weeks have passed since then, and while Saqib has returned to activity, he seems to be focusing his attention elsewhere and there has been no further progress on Taxila. I'd say it's time to slush Taxila; would the rest of you agree? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:31, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, unless User:Saqib has plans to get back to working on the article within the next few weeks. Let's see what he says. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:26, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree. The Eat section is still sparse and coordinates are missing. ϒpsilon (talk) 21:09, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My friends, I have said above that "slush this nomination" timestamp 11:08, 4 November 2014 (UTC) so Andrew, please feel free to do it. Yes I have become bit busy on Wikipedia lately but soon you will be seeing me active here. In next couple of days, I will hopefully work on Kirthar as featuring time is approaching. --Saqib (talk) 06:18, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Delhi
Blurb: Delhi is the capital of India. It is one of the oldest cities of India and with innumerable structures of historical importance, it is a great attraction for tourists who are history buffs. Delhi has more layers of culture, history, civilization extant than any other city of the world. It has tales extending from pre historic period to Indira Gandhi's assassination. The city has been destroyed many times, but each time it has been reconstruced like a pheonix from fire. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Thorugh out the year
Nominated by: Royroydeb (talk) 15:48, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: It is a heaven for history buffs as well as for photo bugs.

Nomination
  • Don't support at this time. Royroydeb has been doing splendid work enlarging this article; however, that very work underlines even more clearly the need to districtify the city. The boundaries of the districts need to be discussed and agreed upon on the Talk:Delhi page, and then all the listings will need to be moved to the appropriate district article, with more general information and illustrative examples in prose remaining in the Delhi article. In addition, the article needs more copy editing, but that's really a side point right now. Once the city is districtified and all the district articles are at least Usable, with the Delhi article properly edited to reflect its new status as a "Huge City" with districts, I will be happy to support featuring the article on the front page, but that is some way off. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:06, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not yet. Delhi is one of the world's great cities and the article is certainly comprehensive, but I repeat all of Ikan's criticisms - particularly that it needs to be districted; there's really no excuse for a city of 11 million not to be. I'd like to add that in many sections, the article is longwinded to the point of absurdity - case in point, there's no need to devote north of 3,200 bytes of text (including 655 bytes in the directions argument alone!) to the New Delhi train station, nor to list seventeen different taxi-booking services in #By taxi. Sometimes less is more. And yes, I know I'm one to talk. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:26, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Would anyone else like to opine, or should this go on the Slush pile? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:47, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not yet - Delhi absolutely has to be districtified. Not only is it a huge city, the article is "huge" as well — e.g. 91 numbered POIs in the See section and almost 30 more lacking coordinates. I certainly don't doubt there are 120 places worth seeing in the Indian capital but it would be useful to have them organized into district articles. Moreover, many of the restaurants towards the end of Eat have to be listingfied and more info added about each establishment/the rest of the entries may have to be deleted as we're not the yellow pages. Overall, in the latter half of the article there are many many POIs needing coordinates. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:08, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Diving in South Africa
Blurb: The waters around South Africa have a lot to offer to scuba divers! (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: any
Nominated by: ϒpsilon (talk) 20:40, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Just look at the stunning number of South African diving articles in Category:Guide articles, and then there are even some Stars. Yup, I know that Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay already has been featured and that almost all of those great articles are sub articles of that area. But let's give some credit to WV's diving expert's outstanding work once again (and also, as I've already said, African articles don't get featured very often).

Nomination
  • Support - as the nominator. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:40, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Looks like a very comprehensive article. I made "scuba" lowercase in the blurb, because I think that we decided to do so at some point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:37, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not yet. The article is comprehensive, as Ikan said, but the tone is off. Much of the information in "Understand" borders on the encyclopedic, and the "Read" section should be eliminated or at least drastically reformatted - as it is currently, it's dry and looks almost like a bibliography. Also, the lists of individual dive sites are overly long, and each entry should be accompanied by a one-line descriptor as is already the case in the "inland diving sites" section. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:47, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Would like to invite User:Pbsouthwood to comment. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:23, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd like the editors who have commented on this nomination, and others, to take a close look at this article in light of the concerns I raised about it above, and carefully reconsider whether we really want it on the Main Page in its current state.
Pruning the information in "Understand" and "Read" that's of limited relevance to travelers should be easy enough, but the issue that I'm most concerned about by far – the Telstra vandal-style bullet point lists of individual dive sites; long, monotonous, and free of descriptions or context of any kind – is something that can't be fixed except by someone who has familiarity with the subject. To sum up, despite the wealth of information contained in the article, these glaring faults give it the appearance of being incomplete. I reiterate in strong terms what I said above, that Diving in South Africa is currently in no state to be put on the Main Page, and it's arguably not even truly at Guide status.
I placed this article on the schedule for the February 2015 FTT slot with the hope that Peter Southwood would weigh in and/or make the necessary fixes as Ypsilon had suggested. However, no substantial edits have been made to the article since its nomination, nor has its main contributor even commented on this thread. That being the case, I'm afraid that, absent some substantial work on it, I'm going to strongly suggest this article be slushed.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... I might have a look at the article tomorrow night if there's anything I can do, but the problem is that I don't know anything about diving. I'm a little disappointed that Peter hasn't even had the time to write a comment. We do have other travel topics thart could potentially be featured. But let's keep up the nomination for a couple more days. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:03, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Would anyone else like to comment? (Ikan?) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:10, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I just came back from a trip to California so I won't be able to consider this tonight and I'm not sure when I can (perhaps tomorrow), but I have no expertise in diving. It wouldn't bother me for this article to be slushed, and it sounds like you have good reasons for doing so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:21, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay then. I'm going to leave this nomination in place for another two or three days in case Peter Southwood's attention can still be caught, or anyone else who hasn't spoken up yet in this article's defense would like to do so. Otherwise I'll slush it and adjust the schedule accordingly. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:11, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I expected to find more information about each site in the linked articles. But I now see that there are many many cases like Wild Coast, Diving in Hermanus and Diving Aliwal Shoal where there is at best the same list of dive sites. Let's slush this nomination. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:10, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Lijiang
Blurb: Formerly capital of a small mountain kingdom, still a center of the Naxi ethnic group, and one of China's most popular tourist draws. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Any except mid-winter (Northern hemisphere) when it is quite cold or major Chinese holidays when it is overcrowded.
Nominated by: Pashley (talk) 15:42, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: See Yunnan tourist trail for context. The place is extremely popular with Chinese tour groups and also gets a lot of Western backpackers. It is also a jumping off spot for treks; see Tiger Leaping Gorge (quite nearby) and Three Parallel Rivers National Park (more of an expedition).

Nomination
  • Almost - Firstly, Lijang looks like an exciting and pretty town. My pet complaint are of course the missing geo coordinates :). A few more pictures towards the end of the article wouldn't hurt and there are style issues here and there. There is plenty of time to improve the article, as there are no free time slots before the cold winter. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:34, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It looks close, but although this might not be the only problem, it's clear that at least some of the listings and transportation info needs updating. Some examples: "From Dali, minibus/bus at 55/60¥ about every 30/60min, ~4h (highway in construction, oct 2011)." "Walking is the only option in the old town, while taxis are often the easiest way around the rest of town for ¥7 (June 2008)." "Entry fee is ¥60 (Oct 2011)" "Note: Black Dragon Pool is virtually empty as of June 11, 2012." Until we can be confident that the article is reasonably up-to-date, we shouldn't feature it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:02, 4 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Even if we keep the nomination here Lijiang won't be featured before October 2015 at the very earliest. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:38, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Bangkok/Yaowarat and Phahurat
Blurb: This interesting neighborhood is the abode of Bangkok's Chinese and Indian communities, a lot of fantastic food, and good shopping. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Star (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: November-April, based on Bangkok#Climate
Nominated by: Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:09, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: A Star district article of a warm place that could be featured during one of the cooler months in the north. Bangkok itself was featured, but almost 10 years ago, in January, 2005.

Nomination
  • Support as nominator. It's conceivable that certain information should be updated in this article, and perhaps there might be more good photos to add, but this is a Star article, and all things being equal, it's an obvious one to run. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:09, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, so it was. I agree with you: It would make more sense to slush this nomination and feature another neighborhood. Please go ahead and nominate any of the other neighborhoods you mention, instead. You can copy the time to feature, which I'm basing on which months have less rain. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Let's move this nomination to the slush pile. ϒpsilon (talk) 10:51, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Eindhoven
Blurb: Eindhoven is the fifth-largest city in the Netherlands, which despite a dearth of historic monuments holds a suprising variety of attractions to those interested in design and technology. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Oct the Dutch Design Week or Glow
Nominated by: PrinceGloria (talk) 10:33, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: While there has been a discussion whether we feature too much Europe, we certainly don't in Off the Beaten Track. Eindhoven seems like a perfect destination to me to show that there are off-the-beaten-track destinations in Europe that do not have to be small villages hidden in a remote location. I think it is a neat, complete and compact article, and the destination is relatively easy to reach. The Eindhoven tourist board also seem to be receptive to Wikivoyage, so we can have them involved if we notify them of impending publication on the fron page.

Nomination
Hey, check out Category:Guide articles. Personally I've been looking at Cannes (April or May for the film festival?), Valletta (needs some polishing) and Turku, plus a few of those more hidden places. ϒpsilon (talk) 13:37, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Yongding County
Blurb: A mostly rural are of China area with Hakka tulou, earth buildings/fortresses on the UNESCO World Heritage List. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Sep-Feb
Nominated by: Pashley (talk) 20:05, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: A very unusual and interesting area. It does get some tourism, but mainly from nearby areas or overseas Chinese visiting the ancestral home. On a national or world scale, it is "off the beaten path".

Nomination
I also took the liberty of amending the "Time to feature" - per w:Yongding County, spring and summer are fairly nasty times to visit due to monsoon rains. I'd say that if we run this article at the next opportunity, it should be toward the end of that range (i.e. Jan-Feb 2015) because we've had a glut of featured articles from this region over the past year (Xiamen, Kunming). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:30, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there anyone about who could improve it? Most of it was written by user User:(WT-en) Pinkfluffybrick who has not joined us here. I have done some editing but I've only lived nearby, not actually visited, so there is much I cannot do. It really needs someone on the ground to expand sections like Eat & Sleep, and it is far enough OtBP that we may not have anyone. Pashley (talk) 18:06, 30 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Our aviation Tetralogy: Planning your flight, At the airport, On the plane, Arriving by plane
Blurb: Planning a plane trip? Have a look at our guides to the different aspects of flying. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (all of them) (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Any (February?)
Nominated by: ϒpsilon (talk) 08:17, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: We have four great Guides concerning flying. As they form a whole it would be totally stupid to feature just one of them. On the other hand, four months of almost the same topic would be too much. Therefore I would suggest featuring either Flying, with links to each of those four in the blurb, or as February happens to be exactly four weeks long, why not feature each of them one week during February-March? (21 Feb: Planning, 28 Feb:Airport, 7 Mar:Plane, 14 Mar:Arrival).

Nomination
  • Almost - All four of them plus Flying itself are Guides. There is probably a thing or another to add to the articles, but as this is a topic I believe almost all of us are familiar with and (at least slightly?) interested in, I'm confident the articles will be in a superb shape in February. ϒpsilon (talk) 08:17, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: We previously featured Fundamentals of flying (now a redirect to Flying, since the reorganization of the topic) in February, 2013. How would this be fundamentally different, and should the previous feature be an issue in whether to feature this topic again or not? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:29, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Further comment:I'm not sure that four months of topics on flying would be so stupid, considering how often people use air as their means of transportation. Four straight months wouldn't trouble me, but alternating them with other, unrelated topics would be OK, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, I didn't notice it had already been featured as it didn't have the "already featured" logo in the banner (why?). Let's hear what Andre others think. ϒpsilon (talk) 09:52, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fundamentals of Flying is a unique case: it was one of our first FTTs, but the article doesn't exist anymore, having been split off (if I'm not mistaken) into the four articles nominated here plus Flying. On that basis, I'm going to have to oppose this nomination as a de facto rerun of a previously featured article. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 12:53, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Let's slush the nomination. But shouldn't we put the "previously featured" orange pen on Flying or even all of them, otherwise someone might nominate them again next year? ϒpsilon (talk) 13:05, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
For all intents and purposes, Flying should inherit Fundamentals of flying's history. Powers (talk) 20:30, 21 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Bucharest
Blurb: Bucharest is the capital city of Romania, also known as the Little Paris of East. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: March-November
Nominated by: Vladislavian (talk) 17:59, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Good article from a nice city. I was there last autumn and I recommend it.

Nomination
  • Not yet - The Bucharest article is Usable, as you can see at the bottom of the article. Yes, the article has a decent amount of information but in order to be graded as a Guide, there are a couple of things that has to be done. The restaurants need to be grouped into price classes and I do think there should be more of them in an article about such a large city. Here and there in the article there are small things that don't follow WV's manual of style and more photos definitely would be good to have. WV does not use any External links section, etc. I noticed that you've started some kind of translation competition for articles about Romanian destinations similar to the one we had about Wales, so if it gets enough participants, I think there's a good possibility that Bucharest can be bettered to Guide status and be nominated here. As of now I sadly have to say no. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:26, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Stockholm
Blurb: Home of the Nobel Prize, the Woodland Cemetery, and Stieg Larsson's Millennium series, Sweden's capital is an intoxicating blend of old and new. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: June-August
Nominated by: Yvwv (talk) 14:27, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: A lengthy guide, with many district articles.

Nomination
  • Maybe. I'm going to take a closer look at this article later, but right off the bat there are a number of listings in the "See", "Buy" and other sections that need to be moved to the district articles. The article certainly has potential, though - there's tons of information here. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:48, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The main article has been made slightly shorter. /Yvwv (talk) 12:37, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just a comment—User:Blist did lots of excellent work on the Stockholm articles on WT after we had already migrated. It might be nice to see what new content he added there can be integrated into our articles here before featuring. --Peter Talk 05:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. The listings that Andre said needed to be moved must have been moved. The article is extremely informative (even rather long, but not in a bad way) and beautifully illustrated with photographs. I just did a bit of copy editing. More is needed, but I think it's actually good enough to feature now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC) Update: I am not currently supporting featuring this article, per discussion below, but would support featuring it if the problems identified by ChubbyWimbus are addressed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:21, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: Why is this article getting so little attention here? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:16, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, for starters, per "Time to feature", Stockholm won't be on the Main Page till next year, so there's perhaps no real sense of urgency. Secondly, I wonder if it has something to do with my "maybe" vote above. I distinctly remember that at the time I made those remarks, there were stray listings in the main article that needed to be moved to the district article; those now appear to have been moved. I see no reason why I wouldn't change my vote to "support" now; once I look over the article to make sure everything else is in order, I will likely do that. But in the meantime, perhaps my reticence has influenced others. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 12:38, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Soft support. As my earlier, retracted vote stated, this is one of the most detailed articles on Wikivoyage not written by myself. :) My pet peeve, though, is the "See" section, which has a very troublesome format given the fact that Stockholm is districted. Those bullet points look deceptively like listings, and all those subsections probably should be converted to prose. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:11, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Oppose This article is riddled with issues. None of the districts are particularly well-covered, and many of them are barely more than lists. I don't think Stockholm warrants this many districts anyway. The content that does exist is improperly formatted from the listings to the district names themselves (Ex: Norrmalm, Stockholm should be Stockholm/Norrmalm). There are strange random subdistricts of the districts that make navigation difficult, as well. Two of the districts have the same grey color on the map... There is a lot of work that needs to be done to get this article up to standard. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:16, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Per policy, the content of the district articles has nothing to do with anything. They're not the ones being featured on the Main Page. That leaves the color issue on the map, which is easily fixable, and the issues I brought up in my comment in August, unless they've already been addressed. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:38, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My opposition is entirely valid. The content of the districts are part of the feature, and most of them are rather bare outlines. These 'mega-cities' are treated as regions and regions with subsections must have a reasonable number of districts that are at least usable. In fact, I don't believe this city even qualifies for 'guide status' and therefore should not even be eligible for nomination since part of achieving guide status requires a significant number of the districts to be at least usable.
Beyond that, though, why on earth would we want to feature such a mess even if policy allowed it? The features are supposed to show off what great articles can and should look like. This article is what our articles can look like but a far cry from what they should look like. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 04:25, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be regarding the district articles as part and parcel of the main Stockholm article. I don't think they are - any more than Buffalo should be regarded as an integral part of the outline-grade Northtowns article, the only marginally more substantive Niagara Frontier article, and on up the hierarchy - and as far as it seems to me, policy doesn't take that view either. Regardless of what may or may not be in the district articles, the information in the parent article is comprehensive and presented well. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 06:33, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your analogies are incomparable. You're talking about different cities; I'm talking about Stockholm's own districts, such as Södertörn, Ekerö, Stockholm/Kungsholmen, Stockholm/Vasastan, Sigtuna, etc. These are all listed as part of Stockholm City's districts and along with others, they're outlines. Mostly just lists or lacking content completely. The parent article is useless without its districts. It says directly to "refer to the district articles" for details, but if the details aren't there, only there as a list with no information, or presented with strange formatting then the parent article is also rather useless. They cannot be looked at independently. If you delete Manhattan, Queens etc. how useful would our New York City article be? Mostly useless. That is what I'm talking about here. We have a parent article (with an improperly formatted See section) and then a lot of hollow content beneath it. That's not acceptable, and this article should only be at "usable" status. Discussion on the article's talk page also suggest what look like much more reasonable district breakdowns than the current district overload that I believe is contributing to the great lack of content in many of the articles. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 07:16, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You said my "analogies are incomparable", but you also said "'mega-cities' are treated as regions". I think we're getting into uncharted territory here in that I've never heard this particular issue brought up regarding a nominee. Let me ask you this: if we were to feature an actual region article as a DotM - say, New York (state) - or even a country article, would you make the same argument if the article's subregions on the next lowest rung of the hierarchy weren't up to snuff? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 08:16, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have never visited Stockholm, so I'm not sure why some of the district articles that are classed as Outlines are Outlines, rather than Usable, but that aside, I think ChubbyWimbus' points about district articles are valid. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not the case that regional articles cannot even be classed as Usable unless all the cities linked from them are at Usable status? Perhaps that should be true of city articles, too (or at least that they can't be Guides unless all their district articles are at least Usable), but even while it isn't, it seems to me that his arguments - especially inasmuch as readers are referred to district articles for specific listings - are pretty unimpeachable. I know that several of us spent a lot of time getting all the district articles in Manhattan to at least Usable status. Still, the point has been made below that there aren't enough geographic coordinates in the district articles for Manhattan. Cities and their district articles are to some degree a package. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:53, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that a Huge City article should not be at Guide status unless all of its districts are at least Usable. Powers (talk) 23:34, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we should hold a front-page feature of this article in abeyance until the problems that ChubbyWimbus identified are rectified. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:56, 11 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed Andrew put up Manchester for DoTM but reverted it later, because that would make two UK articles in a row which is something I think we do not want. CW is right, the requirements for a city article to be a guide requires all districts to be usable or better in the case that the city is districtified. Now this is not the case, so we need to find some other article to feature or fix the problems with Stockholm, which I think is a fairly easy task. Currently there are a whole lot of districts each of which contains relatively little content. It wouldn't be too hard to combine some of them and get fewer but more comprehensive district articles. I guess I could do this to some extent, but it would be better if Yvwv who I believe is a local and suggested Stockholm for DoTM would at least comment on this. ϒpsilon (talk) 08:42, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What is the preferred length of a district article? As I see it, each Stockholm districts has a sufficient number of notable venues for an independent article; please provide a counter-example, if you disagree. /Yvwv (talk) 23:06, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(indent) It's not completely about them being long enough. Less districts are preferred when possible for usability, and I think this article has way too many. Districts that don't have much content: Eskero, Vasterort, Sigtuna, Skeppsholmen, Kungsholmer, the Northern suburbs, all of the southern suburbs.
The hierarchy is also messy. Stockholm isn't a mega-city, so the districts shouldn't have districts, yet Sodertorn, the Stockholm archipelago, Norrort, and Normalm all have one or two districts that make navigation confusing. Some places are described as 'cities' as well, so I honestly don't even know exactly what is Stockholm from reading the article or districts. The articles also don't use proper district naming conventions, which contributes a lot to this confusion. Are all of these places actually Stockholm or are some of them actually independent towns?
I do not know the city, so I'm not comfortable trying to district it however, it looks like all of the Southern Suburbs could be combined into a single Stockholm/Southern Suburbs or Stockholm/Southern article. The northern suburbs look the same. Could Skeppsholmen just join Norrmalm? Kungsholmen doesn't have a lot of content, but looking at the map, it may still make sense to remain its own article. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 03:25, 21 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've started a thread about this at Talk:Stockholm#Destination of the month and districts ϒpsilon (talk) 20:05, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A timeframe

I continue to think that this article has potential, but recognize that consensus says major changes need to be made before Stockholm can be featured. I'm noticing that the talk page discussion initiated by Ypsilon is off to somewhat of a slow start. I'm going to say let's slush this nomination if substantial progress hasn't been made by July. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:26, 5 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

André, i agree with your position. The districts don't work out at the moment and more needs to be done to make on the mainpage. jan (talk) 12:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Stockholm is really a place to visit in the summer and this is also stated in the nomination. This summer there is not going to be any free time slot for Stockholm, so in practice I cannot imagine it being featured before earliest in May 2015. I do know (central) Stockholm, but for me other articles and projects have priority right now. Unless someone else is signing up for the job, I'd say we could slush this nomination and put up a new one towards the end of the year. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:00, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ypsilon, i agree with you. I think it is best to slush Stockholm and get a fresh start. There are so many issues with the article at the moment that i would strike my support from above otherwise. jan (talk) 11:50, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Place: Singapore
Blurb: A stopover in Singapore? Make the most of it! (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Any, but a good “filler” when the weather is cold and crappy in the Northern Hemisphere where I believe most Wikivoyagers live.
Nominated by: ϒpsilon (talk) 22:30, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Well written, the maps that you need are included, otherwise Singapore is probably our best covered country and I’ve personally used this guide and found it very helpful. Who says “personal” itineraries are necessarily bad?

Nomination
You're right that "I don't like it" is not per se a justification for opposing a feature. But it would be a bit hypocritical if we delete One day in Hong Kong, which is currently in Vfd, for being merely Usable and then feature this "personal itinerary" for being a Guide, wouldn't it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:19, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Auckland
Blurb: Ringed by rugged wilderness and pristine beaches, New Zealand's capital is a vibrant metropolis where a heady mix of cultures rub shoulders. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Nov-Mar
Nominated by: AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:06, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Something with which to replace that pesky ? in the March 2014 DotM slot.

Nomination
A map is missing. Sleep section is without mid-range subsection. I also realised descriptions of some listings in the "see", "eat" and "drink" sections are quite short while some listings are without descriptions. To me, the guide status of this article is questionable because most of the tourist attractions are missing. See this for comparison. I've also checked LP article on Auckland and some attractions are missing. --Saqib (talk) 17:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, I think I agree with you, Saqib. Luckily, we have another DotM nominee, Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park, that would work well as a March feature. I'll leave Auckland on the nominees list without slushing it, and hopefully by November 2014 it will be fit for featuring. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:48, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Andrew, I know Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park was nominated earlier than Karachi, but Karachi is first Pakistani DotM and so far got 4 support votes within 2 days. And btw March is not that hot weather either. Can't you compromise please? Its a humble request deep from my heart. If Karachi will be feature in March, I'll be able to start working on other Pakistani articles earlier to get them at guide status otherwise my focus will be remain on Karachi article until its not featured. --Saqib (talk) 17:55, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Per this article's talk page, we're supposed to keep destinations in the same country as far away from each other on the schedule as possible, but you're asking us to schedule Karachi for the very same month as Mohenjo-daro, which is also located in Pakistan. Both of these articles are spectacular and definitely deserve to go on the Main Page, but if we move Karachi into the March 2013 slot, Mohenjo-daro would need to be put off till at least the fall. It's your call. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:27, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've spent really a lot of time lately working on both Mohenjo-daro and Karachi article almost alone, and got them both at the guide status within the short period of time with the hope that they would be featured on the main page as soon as possible but now since the DotM slot is almost full, I'm very disappointed. If you really want to sort out the issue, you can replace Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park article with either Xiamen or Georgetown on the slot and put Karachi somewhere to feature in either April or May. Frankly speaking, I lives here and April is still not that hot weather. And btw, Madison was featured as DotM this September and Clarence as OtbP in October and then Pittsburgh was featured as DotM in June and Childs in July. Please consider. --Saqib (talk) 19:58, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Saqib. You make a good point about work that still needs to be done in the Auckland guide, so I've struck my support for featuring this, for now. I'd suggest that you not be so disappointed that both Pakistan articles you nominated won't be featured so soon, though. The fact that articles about the US have been featured at the same time doesn't mean we should compound the error by featuring two Pakistan articles at the same time. Instead, we're trying to avoid featuring articles about the same country at the same time. That's also why the time to feature Mitzpe Ramon and Golan Trail has been separated. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:42, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I might add that even though we were overloaded with U.S. nominees last summer (which was a major bone of contention with some editors, and which led to a lot of discussion on the need for more diverse features), we still managed to not feature any two American destinations together in the same month, as you propose to do in March. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:19, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Blanes
Blurb: Blanes is an old Catalan fishing town that's become a major tourist destination. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: June-August, July ideal
Nominated by: Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:34, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: User:Eloi.sanmartin has done a wonderful job, starting this article and bringing it up to Guide status in short order, with a bit of editing help from several other folks. Eloi is still working to improve the article, but I believe it is ready for nomination now.

Nomination
One issue: User:Eloi.sanmartin says this town gets about 1 million visitors a year, though he also says most of them are from Europe, mainly Spain. Should it be a Destination of the Month, rather than OtBP? Or is this a case in which this should be a DotM in es:Wikivoyage but an OtBP in en:Wikivoyage? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:39, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Soft support. The information in here is good, but the article badly needs copyediting—not to put too fine a point on it, but it's obvious its main author is not a native speaker of English. It's an easy fix, but it really stands out (and experience tells us that just because it's an easy fix doesn't necessarily mean it will get done quickly!) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:40, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding OtBP vs. DotM, an extensive and time-consuming series of Google searches for "where visitors to Blanes originate from" turned up very little. The only information I was able to find mentions domestic tourists above all, followed by those from the Netherlands, Germany and the UK. The fact that the only Anglophone country mentioned in that source placed last in a field of four and seemed tacked on almost as an afterthought, combined with the description of Blanes in the same source as a quieter alternative to the "hustle and bustle" and "tourist excesses" of Lloret de Mar, and of course, User:Eloi.sanmartin's firsthand experience, lead me to conclude that Blanes does indeed belong in the OtBP column, at least on en:. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 08:54, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't support — Sorry but I've concerns because the listenings have no or very short descriptions and because of this, to me, the article look like at usable status not guide. --Saqib (talk) 02:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strike through after I found it was actually Ikan who promoted it to guide status. No offence, but I thought our guide articles are the ones that are at least as good as a comparable article in any printed guidebook like LP, rough guide but this one is not. --Saqib (talk) 03:10, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Saqib, I believe the passage you're referring to, in Wikivoyage:Guide articles, is: "Not only would you not need to consult another guide, you'd really have no reason to want to: it's all here." Leaving aside the problems I have with that text, the fact remains that it simply calls for a Guide article to be good enough that a visitor to the destination could conceivably use it as his sole source of information. The question of how our coverage compares with coverage in other guidebooks is not only never mentioned in policy, but it's also inherently subjective and likely varies depending on what each individual reader is looking for.
Looking at the number and variety of different attractions listed in the article, I am quite positive that if I were travelling to Blanes with a printout of its Wikivoyage article and no other tourist information, I'd get on just fine. It's true that some of the descriptions are short, but they give the basics of what each destination is—and while it's the polar opposite of my usual approach, I think there's something to be said for letting the visitor uncover the appeal of the various attractions him- or herself rather than "spoiling the surprise" by giving them all the relevant information beforehand.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 08:36, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This article is still in progress. User:Eloi.sanmartin has said that he's still improving the article, and as he has added more content to it, I have been copy editing it. I may not be able to do that much in the teeth of final grading and then again when I'm in Germany for most of the month of January, but I thought the guide was already good enough to nominate. It's OK if people would rather wait for it to be improved further before supporting featuring it. As for the length of descriptions, I really don't use printed guidebooks much anymore, but when I did, I found that in guidebooks for entire countries or regions, some destinations were covered briefly and some (like Paris, London, Rome, Florence, and in some guidebooks even Siena, because of its great historical, artistic, architectural, and cultural importance) were covered at length. It hasn't struck me that the lengths of descriptions were insufficient in this article. If there are additional types of information you'd like in the article, maybe it's best to specify those in the article's talk page and see if User:Eloi.sanmartin or someone else who's familiar with the town can add them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I was not only referring to attractions but listings in the "Buy", "Eat" "Drink" and "Sleep" sections. Don't you think it looks like a directory and there should be some descriptions? --Saqib (talk) 10:21, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, you're right. Quite a few listings lack descriptions. We can hold off on this nomination for the time being. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:38, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, especially because we've really got more DotM and OtBP nominees than we know what to do with. If we'd supported Blanes to be featured, it wouldn't have gone on the Main Page till 2015 at the earliest. I'd go so far as to say that, other than FTT, we hold off on any new nominees for a while. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 11:09, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Point very well taken. We should be looking for more FTT. I was hoping maybe the Chinese phrasebook would be ready, but I don't think it is yet (you can see my remarks in its talk page, but I digress). Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:39, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't object. I haven't been making copy-editing that article a priority. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:41, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]