Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates/Slush pile/2018

2017 DotM slush pile for 2018 (current) 2019

Place: Guadalupe Island
Blurb: Guadalupe Island is truly off the beaten path, being over 100 miles from the Mexican mainland and nearly impossible to reach - but one of the most dramatic spots on Earth. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Any time of year, according to Wikipedia climate data, not large temperature variations in summer/winter
Nominated by: Selfie City (talk) 04:01, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Article I developed with User:Ground Zero a little while ago; it's now at guide status. It's an opportunity to get really off the beaten path!

Nomination
Guadalupe has been the last refuge for the northern elephant seal and the Guadalupe fur seal in the 1890s -> Guadalupe has been the last refuge for the northern elephant seal and the Guadalupe fur seal since the 1890s. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:28, 26 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, a lot of the article (particularly the "Understand" section) is based on the Wikipedia Guadalupe Island article. We have to hope that all the information on here is right, because it's hard to find much else about the island, or not nominate it, of course. Selfie City (talk) 03:50, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Using Wikipedia as a source is no problem so long as it's cited as a source in edit summaries or on the talk page. Content based on speculation might be a different story. Can you identify which content that applies to? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would say, things start to get more speculatory from "Fees and permits" through "Sleep". These parts are not straightforward speculation, but at the same time there's not based on someone's reports of visiting the place. The way the article handles this is actually better than I remember it being, but for example I can see a couple "probablies" where when I was writing it I lacked a little confidence. Selfie City (talk) 16:58, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You know how I feel about speculation, but for the others' benefit, I think it's really unnecessary and potentially worse than having no information. It's not always easy to find out stuff just from internet searches, but remember it's not your personal responsibility to fill all sections at any cost. Wikivoyage being what it is, either someone who knows the location will eventually come along, or new online information will become available. And if that takes years to happen, well just remember W:There's no deadline. There are vast parts of the world about which you can find everything you need to know just by googling, so if that's what you like doing you can, just not for somewhere like Guadalupe.
It's a good article, there's no doubt about that, and partly well-researched (the use of satellite pics to establish the presence of a fresh water source is genius!), but I vote not yet until the unfounded speculation is taken out. This means basically anything you have no evidence for, "It's unlikely that..." "Probably", "make preparations in case this assumption turns out incorrect." etc, etc. These front page articles are supposed to be among the best WV has to offer, and non-factual, unverified content is not up to that standard, IMHO. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:15, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I just did some quick speculation-removing what do you think of this? Selfie City (talk) 17:19, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's a good start, and I thank you for the prompt action.
However, removing speculation isn't just about taking out the parts where you let people know you're not sure, it's about removing content that may not be true. For instance, with "Hiking is probably the main activity" --> "Hiking is the main thing to do", what new information has come to light to assure you that is the case? Are there even any hiking trails, or do walkers have to go through the wilderness and navigate using a compass? Are there maps available? Do hikers need to bring machetes to cut through vegetation like Indiana Jones? (No, not just because it's in Mexico. I've been to parts of Derbyshire where this would be advisable!) Do members of the public even have a right to walk wherever they want, or are there landowners they need to get permission from? What about dangerous animals or sensitive environments? These are all vital questions I have, as an active hiker with no knowledge of the island, but there is nothing in the article to help me out, and probably no way of finding out the answer without paying a visit or speaking to someone who has.
But before we go further, it might be better to know what others think of this issue. Am I being overly strict or demanding here? Should we be relaxed about including information that isn't necessarily true or even verifiable? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
ThunderingTyphoons!, while it's not easy to say hiking is the main thing to do, there is also no evidence that it isn't. This is a next-to-impossible destination; there aren't many things you can do on the island, the two being hiking and fishing, which I mentioned. Selfie City (talk) 18:33, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with ThunderingTyphoons!. SelfieCity says "while it's not easy to say hiking is the main thing to do, there is also no evidence that it isn't." I gather that this is the justification for including the first part of the sentence "Hiking is the main thing to do on the island, along with fishing." If that kind of guesswork was used to build this article, I oppose featuring.
In particular, I strongly agree with ThunderingTyphoons! that "removing speculation isn't just about taking out the parts where you let people know you're not sure, it's about removing content that may not be true". If the information about hiking is just speculation, then saying "Hiking is the main thing to do" is much worse than saying "Hiking is probably the main activity". At least in the second sentence you're sort of signaling to the reader that you're not sure, whereas in the first sentence the reader is likely to assume that you actually know. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:51, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not yet I don't think that there should be speculation about major activities, if we don't have enough solid information then wait until we do. Saying "Hiking is probably the main activity" suggests that we know that hiking is popular and definitely is regularly done, but we are not sure whether it is the most popular activity or the third most popular activity. Get in has no car ferries, but Get around has a large By car section with no mention of car rental. Fees and Permits must have definite information - if necessary ask a Mexican embassy. AlasdairW (talk) 23:07, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Having looked a little more into this, I am now going to Oppose. The WP article has "Because Guadalupe Island is located within a biosphere reserve, anyone visiting the island must obtain a permit from the Mexican government; this means the communities on the island are closed towns." The only reports of visits I could find online were of scientists, publishing reports on he natural history. I don't think that we should feature somewhere that no contributor has visited unless there are reliable published sources of visitor information. AlasdairW (talk) 21:59, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for doing the research, AlasdairW, since your research clarifies that this article is too off the beaten path to go on the front page. Probably should go to the slush pile. Selfie City (talk) 22:07, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There's no such thing as "too off the beaten path to go on the front page". Wake Island, open only to the U.S. military and civilian contractors, was OtBP in February 2009. Of course it's more difficult for an article for place like that to achieve Guide status, but there appears to be enough in this article (even if we subtract out speculative information) to justify putting it on the Main Page. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:07, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My main reason for opposing is that I don't think the article is reliable. I would reconsider if some published guide was identified, or the article was reviewed by somebody that had been there. The information about permits in the WP article is somewhat different to "Considering how hard it is to get to the island, it is unlikely that the Mexican government will worry about restricting anyone from getting there" which we have. A lesser point: we are a site for real travellers, not armchair explorers, and I think that we should only feature places that almost nobody is permitted to visit on 1 April - but this may be resolved if full details of getting a permit are added to the article. AlasdairW (talk) 20:55, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, unfortunately it's really difficult to know how much of the article is true without having much online info or people with experience on the island,to turn to. There really is no reason to run this article when there are so many others without such doubts hanging over them. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:27, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Sorry, I probably never should have nominated this article in the first place. I'm really beginning to think that this nomination belongs in the slush pile. There is simply not enough information about the place (from other sources, that is) for it to be on the front page of this website. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:32, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to slush this article, that's fine, but let the record show that the slushing did not happen on the basis of Guadalupe Island being "too OtBP for the Main Page". Every article, no matter for which destination, has an equal shot at the Main Page provided it's at Guide level or better. Suggestions otherwise fly in the face of longstanding precedent (Childs is another example). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:46, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, what I meant by saying "too OTBP" is that it is such an obscure place that creating a main-page quality article about it has proved impossible. Sorry if I was misunderstood. --- Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:48, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with AndreCarrotflower that there's nothing wrong with featuring places very far off the beaten path. I also agree with slushing this article, as too unreliable and difficult to fix. (As a side note, though, I'm not sure I agree that every guide-status article has an equal shot at the main page. I don't think I'd support featuring ultra-dangerous places like Mogadishu, even if guide status.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:15, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment — so how should we proceed? I was looking forward to see an article of a really offbeat destination on the Main Page and therefore I'd hate see this article go on the slush pile, but people opposing it on the basis that it's too speculative do have a point. The January OtBP slot could maybe house one of our many US OtBP candidates. ϒpsilon (talk) 12:41, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think this article is realistically fixable in time for featuring. I think the way to proceed is to slush it and look for a replacement. A US destination would be good by me, assuming the schedule isn't too crowded with US destinations already. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:34, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Andre? ϒpsilon (talk) 14:39, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, sorry, I thought this had already been taken care of. I personally still think it's salvageable, but most others don't, and it shouldn't be too difficult to find another candidate for January. Go ahead and slush, I'd say. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:42, 6 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Pudong
Blurb: Shanghai's financial and business center, packed with skyscrapers all built since 1990. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Usable (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Spring or fall
Nominated by: Pashley (talk) 06:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This area has seen perhaps the world's fastest development in the last few years & has many upmarket hotels and a variety of tourist attractions including some of the world's tallest buildings. There are some broken link problems but other than that the article looks ready to me.

Nomination
  • Comment Downtown is featured in May, and we usually want to have two years between places in or involving the same city, which means it will take at least until 2020 before this could hit the Main Page. Perchance we could aim for Shanghai itself on the Main Page for then. --ϒpsilon (talk) 11:17, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Shanghai as a whole would have a really hard time reaching Guide status; see Talk:Shanghai#Getting_to_guide?. It might be easier to get Downtown to Star. Pashley (talk) 12:59, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not yet. I notice this article is only at usable status; guide status is required for featuring. From a quick glance, there are also some listings that need coordinates and some dead links that need to be addressed, and the "Eat" and "Drink" sections strike me as skimpy for a bustling district in a major city. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:45, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree but thought it worth listing as a future possibility. It seems to me it is quite close to Guide & it would not be featured for at least a year, likely more, so there is time to fix it. Pashley (talk) 12:59, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we can even consider a nominee until it's a Guide. And I would certainly oppose featuring an article that's not a Guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:34, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with Ikan; this nomination was very premature, especially since it couldn't be featured till 2020 anyway. Barring any last-minute objections (which would have to be extremely convincing indeed), I'm going to throw this on the slush pile. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:46, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Madrid
Blurb: Spain's capital has some of Europe's finest art collections at Del Prado, Reina Sofía and Thyssen-Bornemisza, historical artifacts from the once enormous Spanish Empire, and bustling nightlife. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Spring or autumn. Madrid is good for a casual visit, without too much preparation.
Nominated by: Yvwv (talk) 15:23, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The article itself is well-updated. District articles were created in 2017.

Nomination

Oppose; not at Guide status. Two of the district articles are redlinks. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:06, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

More specifically, those articles must not only exist but also be at Usable status. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:13, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well that is one way to "fix" it, the other is to get rid of the districts on the map, merge them, the likes... Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:08, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Weak oppose. Despite this article being divided into districts, it has a lot of eat listings, but then lacks sleep listings. Selfie City (talk) 01:59, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Venice
Blurb: Venice was once an independent merchant republic and the cradle of the Italian Renaissance. Still today, canal boats are the main means of transportation. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Spring or autumn
Nominated by: Yvwv (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Surprised to see that this classical destination has yet to be featured or nominated. The article has improved a lot during last weeks.

Nomination
  • Not yet. There are the bones of a good article here, but there are also a lot of issues that need to be addressed before Venice is ready for prime time:
  • The "By boat" and "Porters" subsections of "Get in", and the "By water taxi" subsection of "Get around", need to be at least converted into bullet-point lists, if not listingified. All those price quotes (how old are those, by the way?) and phone numbers are ugly when presented as a big block of prose.
  • There are quite a few listings that lack geo coordinates and/or need descriptions.
  • The list of churches in "See" is too long, as are most of the "Sleep" subsections. Pick the best and ditch the rest.
  • Some of the material in "Do" is questionable, for instance there are a few apparently non-value-added tours (Il Burchiello, Secret Itineraries in Doge's Palace).
  • In the "Buy" section, for such a major tourist city as Venice, I totally understand the urge to avoid listing every shop that might be of interest to our readers, but in that case the article should present generalized information of where you can find shopping areas, any types of specialty items that are unique to the area or for which you can find unusually good bargains, etc. without any listings at all. But having five listings of apparently randomly-selected shops looks too much like unreverted touting for my tastes. (Also, why is one of them an "Eat" listing?)
  • "Eat", "Sleep", and "Drink" need to be alphabetized.
  • The whole article needs to be copyedited by someone who speaks English natively.
-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:45, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not yet — this article does need quite a bit of streamlining and pruning, and listings need coords and expansion and perhaps a couple more photos, though the article is much less of a mess than I remembered. --ϒpsilon (talk) 10:16, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article yet to receive a single support vote. I would suggest running Sarajevo in September instead. Not only was Sarajevo added to the nominations before Venice but it also has more than enough support votes and the article is otherwise in mint condition compared to Venice. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:03, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone? I mean the article is still fairly messy and we as I said have a candidate freshly written up to guide status that shouldn't have to wait almost another year. ϒpsilon (talk) 14:26, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question/Comment. There's a style tag in Sleep, saying "too many hotels"; only a few of them are georeferenced. Shouldn't this be worked out? Should this be a reson for demoting the article from Guide? Ibaman (talk) 19:12, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I was hoping that pointing out some of the article's issues above would serve as an inspiration to get cracking on it. But no one has risen to the occasion, and my plate is full as usual. We have enough DotM nominees that this one can go on the slush pile, though I'd say hold off for another couple of days to give folks a last chance. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:07, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]