Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates/Slush pile/2020

2019 DotM slush pile for 2020 (current) 2021

Place: European classical music
Blurb: In concert halls around the world, you can hear the music of classical composers — in their home towns you can visit the places where they lived and worked. (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Any
Nominated by: Ypsilon (talk) 20:21, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: A good-looking and interesting article, and the article was already at guide status when I added some pictures a while ago. And we have many Wikivoyagers who are familiar with classical music and can help improving the article if needed. One thing that does need to be updated is the Events list, though this is probably best done a month or two before the article is featured, to make sure it's up to date also when the article actually is displayed on the Main Page.

Nomination
  • Support but the Events list needs to be up to date when the article is featured. --Ypsilon (talk) 20:21, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not yet. It's grossly incomplete, IMO. Here is a very non-exhaustive list of cities that deserve coverage and have as yet no listing: British Isles: Birmingham and either Glasgow, Edinburgh or both plus probably Dublin. Central Europe: Geneva, Zurich. France: Lyon and probably Strasbourg and some other places (Marseille?). Iberia: Madrid. Nordic countries: Copenhagen, Oslo, Stockholm. Outside Europe: Atlanta, Cleveland, Houston, Montreal, Tel Aviv and maybe Jerusalem and/or Haifa, Toronto, Washington, D.C., and strong arguments can be made for Pittsburgh, St. Louis and possibly Baltimore in spite of the really sad cut in their orchestra's season (they still have Peabody, a famous conservatory). Perhaps Seattle, too, Phoenix, and the Utah Symphony has a good tradition, having been conducted for years by Maurice Abramavel. Come to think of it, Minneapolis/St. Paul, with the Minnesota Symphony and St. Paul Chamber Orchestra should be covered, too. And in Japan, Osaka probably should be listed. Other places in Asia would probably include Seoul, Taipei and Shanghai, and possibly other Chinese cities with large conservatories (Beijing, Chengdu, nor sure which others). All of this will take a lot of work. I think we can take care of that in the time before it would be featured, but I'd like to see a good head start on it before I vote to feature. I can do some of the work, but it would be great if some other folks who personally know the classical music scenes in those cities take the lead. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:51, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not yet for the same reasons of completeness. Plus, the blurbs of cities are either overlong or too short, and there are too many missing cities. A much quicker issue to fix is the use of continental regions, rather than countries, which leads to a very long 'Central Europe' on the one hand versus 'France' (or, more accurately, Paris) on the other. I would suggest splitting by country.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 01:15, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are also some Latin American cities that should have listings, including Buenos Aires, Sao Paulo and Mexico City. And I'm not an expert on the classical music scene in South Africa, but I'm guessing Cape Town should be listed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:32, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speaking of colonial opera houses, there are several ones in Asia too. There are ones built by the French in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City, and one built by the British in Mumbai, and these still occasionally host classical music performances, though they are primarily used for other purposes. I'm not sure if that merits a listing for these. There is also an opera house in Haiphong built by the French, but I'm not sure if it still hosts any classical music performances. The dog2 (talk) 04:28, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the article is really more about hearing the music than anything else, but at worst, if the information is added and we decide it doesn't belong, it could probably be merged to the articles about those cities (if there isn't sufficient content about the opera houses in those articles). But I should say, there are also American cities and towns with opera houses that wouldn't merit a listing because they're rarely if ever used for operas, nowadays, though I guess a few are sometimes, even in tiny towns like Cambridge, New York. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:56, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not yet. I don't find the city listings very travel related, and they don't connect with the city articles. For instance, I could find nothing in Aranjuez that related to the listing in the article. Composers should only be mentionned if the city article has something (museum, statue etc) related to them. There are loads of places to hear classical music - almost any mid-sized European city has a performance once a week, so maybe we should only list a few special venues. Music museums are much rarer and so are more deserving of space. I have updated the dates of some of the events, but many did not have 2020 dates on their websites. AlasdairW (talk) 23:31, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Aranjuez is said to have been made famous by a concerto. I suppose it is interesting mainly for those who know it through the concerto, and those need not be told about it (and perhaps for other visitors in the city, so might be worth mentioning in the city's Understand). Most listings are there because they have venues worth visiting, and those worth listing in this article should be worth listing in the city articles. In rare cases, where the specifics of a city (or park or whatever) have influenced an important composer, one might want to wander down the same streets even when there is nothing devoted to them, but that may be too marginal for this article. --LPfi (talk) 13:01, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should we slush this nomination? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:20, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'd agree with that, if there is more work that people feel is possible. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:51, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's plenty of discussion right here in this thread about work that's possible. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:07, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - if, as many have said, the article doesn't by far cover all the listings it should cover, then there's no point in having the article collecting dust here on the nominations page. But in that case the article shouldn't for sure be at guide status either. Plus, the article does now have 70 listings, and if it will be expanded by many more I think it eventually needs to be split up in a couple of regions. --Ypsilon (talk) 19:00, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question What do you mean by "split up in a couple of regions"? The listings are already split by continent and country. What else do you have in mind?
Subarticles for different parts of the world, maybe "Classical music in Central Europe", "Classical music in Southern Europe", "Classical music in the rest of Europe" (???), "European Classical music outside Europe" (???). --Ypsilon (talk) 05:50, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If you think that kind of split is necessary, we should discuss it on the article's talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe it's not necessary yet, but if there will be many more listings (more than 100?), at some point the article would be more reader-friendly if the listings would be distributed on a few subarticles. --Ypsilon (talk) 18:33, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
99 of a single type of listing is the maximum before the markers stop working, so either subarticles or becoming more picky over listings would at that point be a necessity.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:16, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's technically possible to add as many listings as we like. In Roman Empire an additional "counter" parameter was added to the listings (e.g. counter=f for France), and for each counter name 99 listings can be added. But that would make the article longer and longer, just like the Roman Empire one. I mean, we districtify big city articles too, to make them easier to grasp. --Ypsilon (talk) 19:49, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There's another major issue, which is that none of us has any idea what the classical music scene will look like after this pandemic is over. I think that while there will be a strong pent-up desire to go to concerts, many people may be slow in coming out of lingering fear of infection, and many arts organizations may cease to exist, especially in countries with weak governmental support for the arts like the U.S. (I'd expect much less of this in countries with very robust arts support like Germany and The Netherlands.) Thinking about this clearly, I believe we should continue working on this article but probably shouldn't feature it until the pandemic is over and the dust has settled. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:52, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to slush the nomination shortly, no point in keeping it here. --Ypsilon (talk) 17:29, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Hopefully it will eventually be good enough to be a featured travel topic. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:37, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Place: Quebec City
Blurb: A piece of France in North America, this fortified, scenic city is a worthwhile destination during summer and winter alike (should not exceed ~145 characters)
Article status: Guide (must be guide or above).
Time to feature: Jun-Sep for warm weather, though there's much going on during the winter despite the cold so Jan-Mar could also be a possibility
Nominated by: Ypsilon (talk) 18:20, 18 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Q is finally going on the Main Page!. The article was a guide already, but a little short on sights, shops and eateries so I've brought over some of those from other language versions over the last few days. It has been slushed before but that was back in the WT days so I guess this was a really different article back then.

Nomination
  • Support as nominator. --Ypsilon (talk) 18:20, 18 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Looks good to me. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:43, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. #By boat needs more information, like where the cruise begins, or at least a website about it. Otherwise, this is a good article to feature. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:57, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I've travelled extensively in Quebec City, and I have to admit I was ruing the day when this article was nominated. I can't in good conscience vote "Support", just because of how incredibly much the article is missing. It's not just a matter of an attraction here or an activity there. It's a matter of, if a friend were to ask me for advice about travelling to Quebec City, the one item of overarching importance that I would say right at the start before getting into anything else is something that this article barely mentions. Which is that Old Quebec is a conundrum. On the one hand, its historical importance is genuine and immense; pound for pound it's almost inarguably the densest cluster of historic sites and buildings in Canada. But on the other hand, it's touristed to the hilt; those old cobblestone streets are always clogged with tour buses herding selfie-snapping day-trippers around like human cattle, the buildings are full of overpriced restaurants and knickknack shops, and generally it's a place that locals avoid like the plague and does not in any way depict the true face of the city. The fact that the Quebec City article focuses on Old Quebec to an almost exclusive degree, I look at the same way as if our New York City article focused almost exclusively on Times Square. You have to get outside the walls of the old city, to places like Saint-Roch and Saint-Sauveur and Limoilou, to experience the real Quebec City, yet these places barely rate a passing mention in our article. To do the place justice it would almost have to be districtified, yet the reason I also can't in good conscience vote "Oppose" is that I know I won't be getting around to that before summer 2020. I wish I had a better answer for you guys, but that's where I stand on this nominee. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:56, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am withdrawing my support in light of Andre's knowledge of the city and the shortcomings of this article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:03, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
By that, I don't mean to say that Old Quebec is unworthy of being discussed in the article, just the same as I wouldn't advise a visitor to New York City to never set foot in Times Square. What's important is placing them in their proper context. New Yorkers themselves may not spend much time at Times Square, but it's a place with a lot to offer visitors of a certain bent, and our job is to make sure our readers are not under the mistaken impression that Times Square is what all of New York is like. Similarly, our job is also to make sure our readers know Quebec City residents don't live in a 17th-century time warp; they live in a modern-day city like anywhere else in North America, except they have a Disneyland castle full of tourists in their backyard that just so happens to also be an actual, bona fide 17th-century castle. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:25, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I see. So one solution would be to replace Quebec City in July 2020's DotM slot with another Canadian article, for example Hamilton (Ontario) is at guide status and just needs some photos and a Google checkup of listings. Then you (or someone else familiar with Quebec City?) could add attractions from outside the old city when you have time, because everything useful from other language versions is already translated. In the case we will have many more listings, especially in See, I think the article needs to be districtified. --Ypsilon (talk) 18:51, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ypsilon - Hamilton is a good choice for replacement DotM. Also, it's only an hour's drive from Buffalo, so assuming the U.S./Canada border has reopened by July, I can help out with adding photos and verifying whatever listings aren't verifiable through Google. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:56, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, we probably should slush this nomination? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 11:09, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with slushing; this page is already too long with nominations that have got the go-ahead but not the time slot (e.g. until recently Rail travel in the NL).--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:32, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a good plan. I don't think the nominations list per se is too long, 9-12 nominations in each section is optimal IMO, but I agree there are some nominations that probably will sit around until summer 2021 and we shouldn't nominate more of those. On the other hand if there's a good article for a place that's visited in the Northern Hemisphere winter (ie. in less than a year) you'd like to see to the Main Page, then by all means go ahead and add it. --Ypsilon (talk) 18:52, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In particular, we need OtBPs that are suitable for the Northern Hemisphere winter. Nkhata Bay will be going in the October 2020 slot in a few days and Iriomote will follow in November, but after that, it's ?s all down the line until the spring. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:02, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There's a town in Florida that I know called New Smyrna Beach. The article is already good, but I could definitely work on that article and perhaps make it an OtBP candidate. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:14, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea. Another possible winter otbp is Quy Nhon (which could be our first feature starting with Q if Quebec City is slushed). It's at guide status but needs coordinates and maybe some updates. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:40, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── When QC is slushed, I suggest these last few comments are siphoned off, and placed in the talk page of this page.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:16, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]