User talk:Gorilla Jones/Archives 2006-2007

Active discussions

This is an archive of discussions on my talk page from 2006 and 2007. If anything here requires further discussion, please take it to my current talk page.

Hello! Welcome to Wikivoyage. You can edit your preferences to change how the software works for you. Please take a second to look at our copyleft and policies and guidelines, but feel free to plunge forward and edit some pages. Scanning the Manual of style, especially the article templates, can give you a good idea of how we like articles formatted. If you're new to our wiki software, MediaWiki, look at the Wiki markup to get an idea of how to edit a page. If you need help, check out the help desk, and if you need some info not on there, post a message in the travellers' pub.-- (WT-en) Sapphire 23:57, 14 October 2006 (EDT)

Great work on Inuyama and more, keep it up! (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:13, 19 October 2006 (EDT)
The Uji article is great — you make it sound so interesting that I'll have to pop in for a visit next time I'm in town! I've bumped it up one more level to "guide". (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:07, 17 November 2006 (EST)



Could I ask you to upload this image Wikipedia:Image:Deadwood_today.jpg to Wikivoyage licensed under CC-by-SA 1.0? Thanks. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 18:08, 9 November 2006 (EST)

Any chance that you happen to have a few extra Deadwood images? I think I might be able to make Deadwood into a very useful guide by Monday, but images would sure be a great means to the end. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 13:39, 10 November 2006 (EST)


The ceremonial dance is a very good picture, but IMHO the torii is more 'iconic' and instantly recognizable -- how about swapping the places of the two? (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:53, 9 January 2007 (EST)

Compromise -- I snarfed a pretty shocking crimson torii pic from Wikipedia and used it as the intro pic. (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:23, 9 January 2007 (EST)

People in photosEdit

Do you think this photo is usable under the Shared:Image policy? (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 12:10, 22 February 2007 (EST)

Yes, because no one is identifiable. Thanks for the Trans-Siberian images - I've been making use of them on de:Transsibirische Eisenbahn. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 17:37, 22 February 2007 (EST)
Thanks! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 20:57, 22 February 2007 (EST)


大阪の観光ガイドの記事の冒頭があまりにも恣意的です。���ぜ一番最初に「Tokyo」が出てくるのでしょうか? 素直に、普通に、都市の説明を書けば良いだけのことを、なぜ大阪の記事に関しては、冒頭から根拠無き地域比較になっているのでしょうか。なにを印象操作しようとしているのでしょうか? しかも、こんな書き方をしているのは、大阪の記事だけですよね。荒らしですよ。

Kyoto_splurge - WikivoyageEdit

Thank you, you corrected my sentences. (^^)

by 09:35, 2 March 2007 (JST)

You're welcome! Thank you for adding that information. It's great to have more hotels in the Kyoto article. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 20:00, 1 March 2007 (EST)

Myer CentreEdit

Thanks for appreciating it! I figured only a couple people would even know what I was talking about, but... that guy kills me  ;) – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 00:32, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

I told Cacahuate I was buying him a beer for that! Next year, we might just want Cacahuate to write the April Fool's Joke. I'm still laughing about "Charon, on a good day". -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 04:46, 12 May 2007 (EDT)


Still that bad, huh? Sounds like things have only gotten worse since I wrote the first draft of that three years ago... (WT-en) Jpatokal 02:10, 8 June 2007 (EDT)

I was disappointed that the guy from the talk page never reappeared with his "Up With Poipet" draft. That would have been something to read. Needless to say, I'm taking the airplane next time. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 16:34, 8 June 2007 (EDT)


I'm tired of clicking "patrolled" for every single one of your edits, so I've nominated you as administrator. =) Sign up if interested, or decline if not. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:07, 11 June 2007 (EDT)

Namche BazaarEdit

Hey, thanks for adding the photo of Namche. It is great and clearly shows the geography and lay out of the village. I had previously made a few sojourns into Flickr, but was unable to find anything suitable, so I particularly appreciate your efforts. By the way, congrats on being nominated for admin. I think you'll be a great asset to the team. (WT-en) WindHorse 19:47, 13 June 2007 (EDT)

What is...Edit

an Afghan Whig? -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 17:34, 14 June 2007 (EDT)

One of my favorite bands, originally from Cincinnati. [1] (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:42, 14 June 2007 (EDT)


Thank you for doing all the clean-up on the Peoria article! (It was my first try; I was the anon adder!) (WT-en) Eyebrows McGee

To be quite honest I had a killer headache that afternoon and was avoiding work. :) Plus I'm annoyed by locals who think Peoria isn't fun. Maybe as a transplant I have a different vision! (WT-en) Eyebrows McGee

South Side StarsEdit

Thanks for the offer! I can't think of anything right now, but things may come up. One thing I definitely could use some help with though is the formatting on the Chicago/Bridgeport-Chinatown page. For some reason the edit button for the Buy section edits the Understand section and "Pui Tak" in the see section insists on being randomly indented. Do you have any idea what's going on here? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:19, 23 June 2007 (EDT)

I'm finally feeling like trying out the star nomination process, and I am thinking of starting with Chicago/South Chicago Shore. The one thing that I would like to do that is easier to do from Chicago is to call the four hotels that have no price information to try and fill out more of the template (definitely to get a price range on a double and some sort of blurb information). There is zero information on the web and I'd rather not fork out the long-distance charges for this, so—only if this suits your fancy—would you mind making the calls? I imagine that the call to the "Climax Motel" by 67th & Skyway would be an interesting one! The Chicago/Bronzeville article has a lot of hotels with no information available, but I wouldn't ask you to do that because it looks like a significantly bigger job. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:39, 27 June 2007 (EDT)
I'm genuinely disappointed to hear that your call to the Climax Motel was so, well, anti-climactic... Thanks so much for helping out with this, it added a lot of polish to the two articles. Now I just need to see if I can drum up at least one more hotel for Chicago/Bridgeport-Chinatown, then I think a little clean up and we can nominate the three of them for star status. I've also got a massive edit in the pipelines for Chicago/Far Southeast Side, which I might get in tonight, provided my insomnia continues ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 22:05, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Quebec copyviosEdit

Hey, so, could you check that those Quebec copyvios weren't put there intentionally by a representative of Quebec? The links suggest that there was some official action. I'd hate to discourage a tourism official from contributing. --(WT-en) Evan 22:22, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

I checked a few and found the same text on some tourism websites and the official government site. For example, or this too. Should I leave a note on the IP's talk page asking if they're a representative of the government and are hereby licensing the text as CC-by-SA? (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 22:32, 27 June 2007 (EDT)
Yeah, that'd be great. It might also be good to contact directly. I can do it if you don't want to. --(WT-en) Evan 23:21, 27 June 2007 (EDT)
OK. I'll write the talk page if you'll contact the government. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:39, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Chicago photosEdit

Yeah at first glance I thought it was stuffed, but no, that is just one huge deep dish pie! Unfortunately there are no satisfactory Chicago hot dog pictures around. I guess I'll have to photograph it myself (and confuse some vendor) when I get back. Man, nothing makes me miss the place like thinking about stuffed pizza—I actually lived right across the street from the Hyde Park Giordano's last year... --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:52, 1 July 2007 (EDT)


As it is on Balbo Dr, it is above the community area's southern boundary on Rossevelt Ave. I think the section of town it is in is usually referred to as "South Loop," which we have kept in the Loop article. This section of town is often referred to as the Near South, though, so if you think we should adjust district boundaries, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:34, 6 July 2007 (EDT)

Nope, not opposed, seems like a good idea to me. The character of the neighborhood really changes dramatically after going under the L on Balbo. I suppose we could keep the name Near South, but note in the intro that it includes the "eclectic South Loop" neighborhood? Oh and don't worry about the megalomania—it's the only reason why any of us are here. All my work on Chicago has really been an experiment to see whether I can introduce "South Chicago Shore" into the public vocabulary. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:35, 1 August 2007 (EDT)
Ah, I finally made enough weird translations of policies and templates on :ru to galvanize a few good (and linguistically offended) Russians into action, hence I have a bit of time to work on good old :en tonight.
Sure, Harrison works just fine. My only real concern is to preserve the loop L map (it was tough getting all those different L lines to line up like that). One trick to the new division is that Grant Park will now be split across guides—I'm not sure how to deal with that. That sort of overlap usually something we try hard to avoid, but I still think the benefits outweigh the costs of this new district division. In addition to giving us something to write about in the Near South, it will allow us to focus properly on what's left of the Loop. I'll see what I can do with the maps tonight, before I leave tomorrow for an extended beach vacation. Looking forward to the Near North/South stars! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:54, 2 August 2007 (EDT)
OK, I do have the most recent SVGs for the Loop and Near South, but these map changes are actually a pretty big deal. Next time I map a city, I'm going to just take snapshots off of one giant city map for districts, so that I have more leeway to change district borders. Needless to say, though, my perfectionist streak won't allow me to let this go. I should be able to get everything done on the central Chicago maps by next weekend, if I put my mind to it, except perhaps listings, which I don't really want to tackle unless we feel certain that the article's listings are really complete. I'm guessing that right now the Near North is the only one fitting this bill? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 04:51, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

Along the Magnificent MileEdit

Just had to exclaim, "Nice job!" (WT-en) OldPine 22:49, 6 July 2007 (EDT)

Thanks! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 14:18, 8 July 2007 (EDT)

More Chicago materialEdit

Nice work tonight on the Chicago/Near North article! Whenever you are feeling done-ish with it, let me know and I'll try and update the map to cover any new listings. You've probably noticed that I have been hard at work tonight on my rather experimental User:(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald/Chicago skyline guide—if you have any suggestions, criticism, advice, etc., I would appreciate it. I still need to write the understand section, with which I am straining to avoid overlap with the Chicago#Architecture piece, but aside from that I'm starting to feel like it might be ready to move out of my userspace. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:42, 11 July 2007 (EDT)

Cool, I'll hit the map when I get back on Monday from relaxing in the Adirondacks. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:30, 12 July 2007 (EDT)
Thanks so much for the copy-edit on the skyline guide—it really needed it. You are quite the master of the pen! I wonder whether I could get you to look over my thesis ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:20, 12 July 2007 (EDT)
Ugh. I forgot to upload my most recent version of the Near North map svg file and it's on my desktop—looks like this update will have to wait until I replace my broken monitor :( But in any rate, nice work on the Near North. All that jumps out as "missing" are buy entries along the Magnificent Mile—that section should probably be pretty long, but like you I am not a "shopper" and don't want to tackle it. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:59, 20 July 2007 (EDT)

Far Southeast/west SidesEdit

Thanks again for the offer to spruce these up! As far as I know, the only thing the Chicago/Far Southwest Side is missing is a photo of that silly castle (and maybe one of the parade, but that will have to wait). In addition to the hotel calls, the Chicago/Far Southeast Side could use some new photos—I'm not very happy with the current Pullman photos. So if you happen to make it down to either of these areas, don't forget your camera! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:23, 18 July 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for the Southeast hotel calls! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:56, 23 July 2007 (EDT)


I see your point about Avondale, but my concern is that it isn't contiguous with the rest of the Far Northwest Side. We could move Irving Park to the Far Northwest as well and keep North Center (which we are currently calling a part of Irving Park) in the North Side. Would that work well? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 03:39, 22 July 2007 (EDT)

O'Hare is gargantuan; I would like to see it get its own article. And I will make a point of changing our district maps to show North Center in the North Side and Irving Park & Avondale in the Far Northwest. I also wanted to point out that the last districts below usable status are the Far Northwest and the Southwest (I have an enormous edit coming through soon on the latter)—once these are upgraded, we can return the Chicago article to guide status (and on the way to Stardom). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 04:01, 22 July 2007 (EDT)
Hmm, where is that Mandarmani spamdal? He's become part of my daily bedtime routine and I need to get to sleep! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 04:03, 22 July 2007 (EDT)

Back to the Avondale question (now that I have got some sleep). One disadvantage to splitting Irving Park and North Center is that they then both become too small to ever get their own district. I would like to eventually get individual district articles for the north side (I think Lakeview and Lincoln Park more than deserve them). I don't really know too much about the area though, do you think it would be possible or at all desirable to write a North Center article? My hunch is no, but I could certainly be wrong. For that matter, would Avondale/Polish Village ever realistically make a standalone article? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:53, 22 July 2007 (EDT)

Ah, I'm glad to hear that North Center would work in a Lakeview-North Center article—that resolves my concerns. I realize that we currently split Old Town between the Near North and Lincoln Park articles. I think it would make sense to move all of Old Town (down to Division St) into a Lincoln Park-Old Town article. So I guess I should bump up the priority of finding a new monitor to hook up to my desktop so I can alter/update the Near North map! By the way, I'm very glad to have someone from the North Side working on these because my limited knowledge would make this sort of district sorting a nightmare. I'm discovering this while I try to sort out the Southwest Side content—all I know personally about the area are the areas right along 55th St on the way to Midway, plus a few other nightlife venues. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:32, 23 July 2007 (EDT)

Rare, fragile beautyEdit

That was the funniest thing I've read on Wikivoyage in a long time! (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:24, 27 July 2007 (EDT)

Sometimes a spammer brings out the best in you. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 15:56, 27 July 2007 (EDT)
A true flash of genious indeed, still chuckling! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 03:02, 28 July 2007 (EDT)

Retail GorillaEdit

Nice job on the Chicago/Near North#Buy! I realize all too well that was a bit painful to write. But hey, I think fashion-conscious cat and the trend-minded dog would make an awesome Near North superhero duo! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 03:02, 28 July 2007 (EDT)

Near SouthEdit

Hey I forgot about your ru-1! Please do feel free to stop by and import some templates—I feel like there is actually a fair amount of work to be done that doesn't require any language skills beyond reading cyrillic. I especially have no idea what is going on with more technical aspects, like setting up direct wikipedia links. I don't know whether that's something you have a handle on. In any rate, it would be nice to see more :ru user registrations, even non-contributing—it will help inflate our statistics!

My knowledge of the Near South is unfortunately very scatterbrained. I've done a fair amount of aimless wandering and cheap eats, but I've never really analyzed what I was doing there. But I'll dig around the internet and see what turns up, when I get a chance. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:16, 30 July 2007 (EDT)

If you have any more listings to add to the Near South, please try to do so within the next several hours. I'll get the Near South map with the updated boundaries and listings uploaded tonight; then perhaps we could nominate it for star status, after a bit of tightening up? I'm still held up with my monitor problem on the Near North, but I'll try to fix that soon. I have the Loop map all drawn, but the listings need updating. I suppose I could just put that up without perfect listings for the time being (so that boundaries are clear) and then update it when we feel it is ready. I would also like to map the North Side articles, whenever you feel like the listings are looking complete, let me know and I'll get them uploaded. My (WT-en) Southwest work stalled big time after I lost something like 25,000 characters of work in a computer crash. But I will bite the bullet and get all the listings compiled once more, because I really want to push Chicago to star status.
I would really like to see the West Side and possibly the Far North Side broken into smaller districts as well. The West Side will be straightforward enough. To me, it seems that smaller districts for the Far North Side would also be useful, as there seems to be pretty big differences by neighborhood, but I'll defer to your opinion on whether they would make good articles on their own. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:41, 7 August 2007 (EDT)
One question, how do we treat Grant Park, now that we have divided it between the Loop and Near South? Should we just direct all Grant Park information into one of the two and leave a note regarding this decision on the other? And in which of the two should we include it? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 22:59, 7 August 2007 (EDT)
Hey no worries, just so long as you don't have any new budget eateries up your sleeve—I'd have to change every single eat icon that came after it! I have to add the gourmand cafe anyway. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:41, 9 August 2007 (EDT)


Congratulations on Star-ifying Chicago/Bronzeville. We've gone through the process, there was zero dissent (unusual for recent Star nominations, incidentally), and time is up, so I just applied the coveted label. Great work by you and Peter on this one. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 13:47, 4 August 2007 (EDT)


Thanks for the nice comments and thanks for your tireless work on hotel listings, etc. (I seem to have accidentally done the parking rework without logging in, incidentally). (WT-en) N. Paul Inast 23:04, 4 August 2007 (EDT)

CTA MapEdit

That one is quite nice. Put it up for now; it will be useful for me when I do get around to making a city-overview map, which will include the L lines (and perhaps Metra lines too). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:13, 8 August 2007 (EDT)

West SideEdit

That would be a perfectly fine temporary fix, but I think in the long run that sort of division wouldn't make much sense. I would include the Lower West Side/Pilsen with the Near West and Far West in this scheme. But might it not be simpler to just break out one district at a time? I did that for the South Side, and it preserved usable status for all articles while allowing me to go one by one. Just a suggestion. And I'm looking forward to the Lower West Side article, so save some for me ok? ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:13, 8 August 2007 (EDT)

Баня in Chicago?! If only I had known! I presume you may BYOB? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 05:28, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

Lincoln SquareEdit

My initial feeling was that North Park & Albany Park together could eventually make for an interesting and coherent article. I'm sure there are lots of good eat listings to be found, but I suppose there might not be any attractions. But I haven't dug around in that area very much, so I'll defer to your judgment. I have no problem with grouping them under the one name "Lincoln Park," however, just as long as they get a good write-up in the "understand" section.

I've been thinking, though, if we are combining neighborhoods into made up districts, why not just start making up names? Call the place "Heiden Park" why not! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:01, 13 August 2007 (EDT)

Which small areas in particular have the majority of the listings? If you could let me know the block (e.g., street name between streets A & B), that would help speed things up a bit. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 15:52, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
Hmm, I'm thinking a general map with the main roads + a blow up of Lincoln Ave from 4500-4800. Does that sound about right? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:26, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
Is there an appropriate name I could give to this blow up (4500-4800 Lincoln Ave)? Somehow a map without a title just doesn't feel right. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:45, 23 August 2007 (EDT)
Right, but since we're calling the greater neighborhood Lincoln Square (as one of the three neighborhoods in the district), I was wondering if we could go more specific. Would "Giddings Plaza" work? In any rate, I'll upload these maps pretty soon, so you can see exactly what I've done.
Btw, welcome to the megalomania! I drew up a highly detailed map of my folks' ancestral lands in the Adirondacks last week, and I named an as-of-yet unnamed mountain after myself! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:11, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

Long BeachEdit

I think that this edit to the Long Beach article, while not exactly MOS, is still valid. The Queen Mary is docked there and I'm fairly sure it has some restaurants available that are frequented by tourists. If that's wrong I apologize - it's late and I didn't investigate further. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 02:28, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

OK. I didn't catch that it is permanently docked. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 02:36, 23 August 2007 (EDT)
Thanks - I pretty much only patrol articles that are on my watchlist anymore, and for some strange reason that one was on it. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 02:42, 23 August 2007 (EDT)


Well, sometimes I stay silent when I should comment. But, you know the saying about keeping your mouth shut and everyone thinking you are a fool, is better than opening your mouth and confirming it to everyone. Anyway, Chicago is one of my favorite places to visit and you and Peter did a grand job of re-working it recently. Good job!!!(WT-en) Workerbee 13:26, 24 August 2007 (EDT)


You can use Template:AttributionAlt now. I've moved it out of my namespace. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 20:23, 31 August 2007 (EDT)



I'm awarding this barnstar to yourself and another User:(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald for having made our previously hopeless Chicago guide into a world-class guide befitting a world class city. Thank you! You rock. -- (WT-en) Mark 14:57, 3 September 2007 (EDT)


I'm so happy there is an unofficial fanblog for Harolds—I found them earlier this year and got a good chuckle at their writeup of the yuppifried Harold's outpost in Wicker Park. Sometimes I think Harold's is really what I miss the most about Chicago. $3 buys more fried chicken than anyone needs and it's hands down the best north of the Mason Dixon line. Sorry for touting all over your talk page, but I have trouble resisting jubilant, nostalgic outbursts about my beloved ghetto chain. I'll see if I can muster a good infobox for the main page, hopefully it won't require too much in the way of detout edits. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:33, 3 September 2007 (EDT)

Wisconsin editEdit

You deleted my addition of a link to a pronunciation guide, saying "undo - see Wikivoyage:External links (we want to add content, not just link to it." Did you realize that the link contained audio of the pronunciation of hundreds of words associated with the state? While I agree that having content on the site is best, for every rule there is an exception. In this case, helpful information is not easily duplicated by text. Isn't it better to have access to the information by way of a link from the Wikivoyage site rather than having nothing whatsoever?(WT-en) Butwhatdoiknow 09:04, 9 September 2007 (EDT)

No, it isn't better. Empty space calls for knowledgeable people to fill it; filled space doesn't. Although we provide links to the official websites of hotels, restaurants, and tourist sights, we're really trying to create a guide that can be used without need for other websites - so travelers can print the Wikivoyage guide and use it off-line. In this case, the pronunciation of people from Wisconsin is not that strange to require an audio guide for outsiders to understand. The 'Talk' section should mention any second languages that are popular in Wisconsin and cover English slang from Wisconsin that's not used in other places. (Like the way we in Chicago might refer to a 'two-flat'.)
I hope you'll keep pushing the Wisconsin article forward, though. It'd be great to have more coverage of the cities and attractions there. Gorilla Jones 10:46, 9 September 2007 (EDT)

The reason I included the guide is that includes the audio of pronunciations of PLACES in Wisconsin (such as "Chequamegon" and "Lac Courte Oreilles") that would be helpful to a traveler. This is distinguishable from "two-flat," which can be easily pronounced whatever its meaning.

The "filled space" mantra is nice enough if people can find the filled space. Why wouldn't we want to help readers find that space if we cannot easily duplicate (or improve) it? My take-away lesson is that there are no exceptions to the "no link" rule whatever the benefit to the user. Pedantry prevails. (WT-en) Butwhatdoiknow 12:54, 9 September 2007 (EDT)

Wow, you're a real charmer. If that's your "take-away lesson", then I see no need to take it away from you. Feel free to raise the issue in the travellers' pub if you think policy should be changed to include audio guides. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 13:03, 9 September 2007 (EDT)
I want to be sure that I understand this comment before I respond to it. Are we now going to a place where personal attacks are appropriate? (WT-en) Butwhatdoiknow 16:01, 9 September 2007 (EDT)
It was your comment that pedantry prevails. I'm not interested in going back and forth. You've been given two suggestions for places to state your case if you think links to external audio guides should be included in Wikivoyage. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 16:18, 9 September 2007 (EDT)
I accept your apology. (WT-en) Butwhatdoiknow 17:32, 9 September 2007 (EDT)

More various Chicago issuesEdit

As far as a map strategy goes for the West Side, I'd like to still break it down further. I think the near west side definitely deserves its own article, as evidenced by the fact that virtually all the information on the West Side right now is about the Near West. The one thing I'm still unsure about is whether the Far West & Lower West Sides really deserve their own separate articles. One thought floating around in my head is that we might actually combine the two of them into a "Far West Side" article. Lower West's Pilsen has plenty in common with Far West's Little Village directly to the west. But I still just don't know that much about the Far West (aside from the fact that Garfield Park is dangerous), so I'll have to do a bit more looking into this before I feel confident making a decision.

I should tell you too, I decided to break down the Southwest Side into two articles: Midway Area, and Southwest Side. I'm basically done with the "Southwest Side" district and could bring out a guide level article complete with street map whenever. I'm holding off only because I haven't finished the Midway Area, and would probably have to acknowledge that by downgrading the main article to usable if I publish a complete guide to only most of the actual southwest.

Individual district locater maps are something I've also thought about, and they would be very easy to make from the existing district overview map on the main page. The main downside IMO is that there isn't a good place to put them on the individual district articles. A more time consuming, but probably better option would be to put in neighboring district names in the street maps. I'm thinking of putting in color coded neighborhoods to all existing maps (for which it would make sense) anyway, so it might not be too hard to go through and make this change at the same time.

Yeah, and not to overtoot my horn, but the neighborhood crime map is cool ;) Being a social science nerd, I had actually plotted out the police statistics a year ago for my own use, and I just realized I could adapt that map to show a neighborhood breakdown here. I found a few surprises too, some neighborhoods I thought were pretty cool are actually pretty tough according to the stats. And I would have thought some of those riverside southwest neighborhoods would have been tougher. In any rate, I think this sort of thing is just another way to put our guide way above and beyond other guides I've seen (to any city). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:15, 10 September 2007 (EDT)

I'll work out the street layouts for near west, lincoln park, and lakeview now and add the listings as they become finalized later. How about West Town? Its listings look pretty filled out to me. And I suppose I'll put up the southwest side article now and just create an outline for the Midway Area, until I finish redoing my lost work for that section :( Lastly, I'm not too worried if a lower west side article isn't as impressive as, say, the Near North guide, because it really doesn't need to be. A lot of fine published guides will devote just a single page or two to a less noteworthy section of town. My Far Southwest Side nonsense probably droned on for too long ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:25, 10 September 2007 (EDT)
One more thing, I haven't been able to get a response out of the Chicago Blues Museum folks by email, would you mind calling them at +1 773 828-8118 to find out what times the museum is open (or if it is open) and whether its location is still at 3636 S Iron St? I've put it in in the meantime (because the museum looks really cool), but I feel weird doing so without knowing if it's even open to the public right now. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:33, 10 September 2007 (EDT)
Hipsters in Canaryville huh? They should consult with me first, I think I could suggest some alternatives ;) Not that I know the area that well—I've only driven through it—but I've heard stories of streets full of belligerent alcoholics. It's also right next to the only two neighborhoods in Chicago that I colored bright red on that violent crime map... Bridgeport, on the other hand, has surprised me a bit while working on these guides. I think that its not just a nice neighborhood to live in, but its actually got some interesting neighborhood life going on. If I wind up in Chicago more permanently I think I might apartment shop over there. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:16, 11 September 2007 (EDT)
My friend Edmar who's the editor of the Lumpen Times has run his mother's bar in Bridgeport for years. It's kindof an old-man-bar place, but I like it. I just wish I could remember its name. I'll ask Ed or go down there next time I'm in town.
Meanwhile, about the Chicago Crime map, maybe it should say over what time the crimes were reported. I assume it's one year? -- (WT-en) Mark 03:52, 11 September 2007 (EDT)
I tweaked the crime map to make it a bit more obvious. And yes it is over the full year, thankfully; otherwise Chicago would be a dangerous place! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:35, 14 September 2007 (EDT)

For Bridgeport pictures, I was mostly thinking street scene + church, but that's pretty non-specific. St Mary is impressive, if for nothing but its size. Another option could be the 35th & Halsted "downtown" area—the Bridgeport Restaurant in particular is very photogenic, although I didn't actually list it in the article. And don't worry if you don't get to this—I would think it would be a pain unless you're driving. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:35, 14 September 2007 (EDT)

Lincoln Park-Old TownEdit

Hey nice work on this one! It's fortuitous that you've been focusing on this today, because I've now got a pretty street map just waiting on listings. Let me know when you think it's ready. Also, would it be helpful if I came up with some Flickr photos of the district? Or do you have your own? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:39, 13 September 2007 (EDT)

It would defy commonly understood neighborhood borders, but I don't care—I kind of like redrawing the lines ;) And it actually is surprisingly easy to make that change to both maps. Let me know if you decide positively to go forward with this and I'll make the map changes. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:21, 15 September 2007 (EDT)
Well, the Gold Coast is definitely known as a Near North Neighborhood, and I usually group it in my mind with the Magnificent Mile. Are you thinking of adding a bunch of new Gold Coast content? That would be below Division St? If it's just a matter of changing the grouping, without a significant content change, then it might not be worth it, given the amount of work it would require on the Near North map to move out and renumber the listings between Division & Oak. Could you explain in more detail what you've got up your sleeve? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:50, 15 September 2007 (EDT)
OK, I see what you mean. I think this would work well if we move the chunk of the Near North article between LaSalle & the shore, down as far as Elm St. Down to Oak St strikes me as just a bit too far. Does this sound like it would work? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 15:20, 15 September 2007 (EDT)
I almost forgot about this! But I've now adjusted the maps and moved the two listings in the moved section. I kept the Original Mother's bar in the Near North, though, to group it with the other Rush street bars. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 22:53, 3 October 2007 (EDT)

Vandalism policy?Edit

I don't know about you folks (I'm sending the same message to several), but I for one am getting sick and tired of the intentional vandalism that's going on here. I am trying to start a discussion on Project:Community policies as to whether something more forceful needs to be in place to deal with it. Historically, we have bent far over backwards to avoid punitive action against vandals and have simply gone in and cleaned up the messes they create. However, the frequency of vandalism is growing, and I am not convinced that we are doing Wikivoyage a service by tolerating it. This said, I'm not at all sure what the "right" response is.

I'd appreciate your participation in the discussion on that talk page. Let's see if we can come up with something appropriate. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 11:42, 19 October 2007 (EDT)

Who do you think you are, reverting my edits? Go to hell! --(WT-en) Stewie Griffin 14:53, 27 October 2007 (EDT)
I'd like to take this opportunity to note that "Family Guy" is a truly shit TV show. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 14:56, 27 October 2007 (EDT)


Hey Marc, would you let me know if O'Hare International Airport needs anything else in particular before we call it print ready? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:13, 28 October 2007 (EDT)

I just put up an O'Hare airport map! I left out eat/see/buy listings on purpose, because I don't have any information about their precise locations within their respective concourses. Let me know if you think it needs anything else. Otherwise, feel free to do the starry honors ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:22, 30 October 2007 (EDT)
And ditto for Along the Magnificent Mile—unless you have changes to suggest for the new map, that itinerary should also be ready for star status IMHO. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 05:59, 30 October 2007 (EDT)
OK, Union Station is now on the itinerary map. --(WT-en) 7Peter 18:38, 31 October 2007 (EDT)
For the Far Northwest Side, do you have an idea of what is the westernmost listing? If we don't have listings there, I'm tempted to leave out the O'Hare neighborhood. It is only tenuously connected to the city, and it is gigantic, so it would force me to split the map across pages. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:03, 31 October 2007 (EDT)
Oof. The Far Northwest map is like a punch in the stomache—I had to take 25 full-screen screenshots to acquire a satisfactory satellite base. Now that that's done, though, it should now be smooth sailing. I'll try and get the Near West Side map listingified now. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:34, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

Teaching EnglishEdit

Is it ready for re-nomination as a star? (WT-en) Pashley 05:43, 29 October 2007 (EDT)

Logan SquareEdit

I'll get working on that map. This site is the best I've found for checking community area boundaries. This is another good map.

I'm also just about done with the Near West Side map, sans listings. I'm planning to put them in once we split off Pilsen/Lower West Side—can we do this now? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:30, 1 November 2007 (EDT)

Do you mean to degroup West Town & Logan from the West Side? I don't know—they are generally considered "West Side" neighborhoods, and if we were to put them under their own grouping, I'd prefer that if we do we retain some sort of directional name for it, as all other neighborhoods are currently under a directional "side" category. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 22:15, 2 November 2007 (EDT)
The Far West Side is actually going to be really strong (heh heh). The only thing that will stop it from being a star, I think, is that I didn't get a chance to hit the streets in the three little neighborhoods north of Austin. But it will definitely be a more dense and interesting article, I think, than most of the other "Far Side" articles. So we could certainly split the map into the four West Side neighborhoods and the one Far West Side. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 22:55, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

Pilsen/Lower West SideEdit

Lower West Side is more accurate, since the district includes Heart of Chicago (which isn't technically part of Pilsen), but I nonetheless prefer Pilsen—it sounds less bureaucratic. I'm all for going for a historical rather than a directional name when possible. But I'll leave the decision to you. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:32, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, I'm not sure about Pizza Nova—the website I was looking at regarding neighborhood boundaries claims that the Mexican Art Museum is itself in Heart of Chicago, although I'm pretty sure not one Italian lives on that block. I'll nail down the boundaries better (and shift around listings accordingly) when I make the map. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:07, 15 November 2007 (EST)
If you'd like help with the Pilsen galleries, let me know—I happen to have a long-open browser full of Pilsen gallery tabs. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:49, 15 November 2007 (EST)
Another brilliant job with Pilsen! I couldn't find any info on sub-neighborhood boundaries, so I just left them off. I'll get the Far NW map update done tomorrow. On that note, do you mind my asking what the randomly capitalized "S" and "N"s were about? If they were a code, I wasn't able to crack it.
By the way, I checked out the first season of The Wire—fantastic show! The setting's real familiar too, as the projects depicted in the first season are just down the street from a friend of mine, and the gangsters eat at my favorite pit beef shack. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 03:42, 21 November 2007 (EST)
  • <eat name="" alt="" address="" directions="" phone="" email="" fax="" url="" hours="" price=""></eat>

Boracay IslandEdit

Have you already red the article of Boracay? I thought its already an established destination because it is well-known attraction in the Philippines. There are hotels, resorts and restaurants there, even a marketplace and residential area. I am not really sure if it is an off-the beaten path.. yes it is an island but not secluded nor that isolated. (WT-en) Alas 19:21, 3 November 2007 (EDT)


Holy @#$% there's a Laotian place here! I've been looking far and wide for Laotian places in the US for years without success. Fantastic job with this article—it's the first to really seize me with a desire to hit the North Side streets ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 03:39, 4 November 2007 (EST)

Whoops, thanks for catching that--I just reuploaded the near west side maps with the sleep icons. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:23, 4 November 2007 (EST)
Again, really a bang-up job with the Uptown article. If you've got the listings done now, I'll have a map up tomorrow. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 03:09, 7 November 2007 (EST)
I'm mucking about with the uptown/andersonville map(s) and I'm using the wikipedia andersonville borders right now:
east: Magnolia
west: Ravenswood
north: Victoria/Ridge
Do these seem appropriate to you? They work well with the map—I'm planning to make one full page Uptown map and one half page Andersonville map—but they exclude a couple listings (Early to Bed, Ardmore House), which would have to move to the Rogers Park/Edgewater district. Can you think of other borders that would better represent the neighborhoods as locals refer to them? I've pretty much got the maps finished, so I'll publish them once I hear from you. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 05:58, 12 November 2007 (EST)
If that last message was muddled, here's a thumb of what I'm working on. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 06:18, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Alright, I think I've come up with a double-sided work around that would work with only one downside—it would retract Andersonville's northern boundary with Edgwater down to Bryn Mawr, while the blocks just north are usually considered to still be part of Andersonville. I've updated the thumbnail to illustrate, with temporary ugly shading to indicate what I'm calling Andersonville. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:28, 12 November 2007 (EST)

Chicago with childrenEdit

Yeah, I think this would be a great addition to the guide. We should probably hold off on it until we've finished the districts, but I don't think it would be too hard for us to crank out. There wouldn't be much to look up—we could mostly write it off the cuff at this point, I think. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 13:09, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Far West SideEdit

The neighborhoods I missed were Austin and the northernmost parts, although I did at least drive through Belmont Cragin/Hermosa. I managed to turn up some good information on Austin online, but little Montclare remains the one black hole in the article—no information whatsoever. The map will take me a bit of time, but it shouldn't hurt as much as the Far Northwest. The Far Northwest satellite base required a patchwork of 25 screenshots of my satellite program, compared to 1 for Uptown. So creating the base and trace took forever. But anyway, I think I'm going to try and slam Pilsen with a load of listings before throwing myself at the Far West map. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 15:53, 9 November 2007 (EST)

I've already got content lined up in my endless see of Firefox tabs, so I'll put in the Pilsen content today/tomorrow. Also, if the mood so moves you, would you mind calling the new motel listings for price info and UnfoundArt and Peeples Taco Place for hours? I think that's all thats missing in the existing listings. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:43, 9 November 2007 (EST)
Ack! I was nearing the finish line with the Uptown map, when I realized that I left Andersonville off. Ah well. I hope UnfoundArt does respond—from the sounds of it, it's a pretty cool gallery. Will revise the Far Northwest map & Douglassess. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:10, 11 November 2007 (EST)
Actually, scratch that, I'll update the Far Northwest map after you decide to keep/strike that last listing. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:26, 11 November 2007 (EST)

Cabbage WarEdit

Hmm, never knew that Rogers Park had a civil war[2]—any ancestors involved? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:00, 14 November 2007 (EST)

Finishing upEdit

Let me know if you'd like me to bombard any specific article/sections with listings—my google-fu is strong. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:39, 26 November 2007 (EST)

Sure, I've got the listings all ready, just need to input them and "make up" descriptions. By the way, I just saw that Google has added its "street view" option for Chicago--huge news for a snoop like me! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:19, 27 November 2007 (EST)
I've now put a good 9 galleries into the Near West article. Would you mind giving a call to Landmark Arts and the Polite Gallery when you have time? I'm not convinced that the former is still open (website is down), and the latter may travel (no permanent location). I'll wait before cramming them onto the map.
Also, should we be listing galleries in the see section? Or the do? Or the buy? I think I've leaned buy in the past, so we should make sure to be consistent across the guide. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:18, 29 November 2007 (EST)
FYI, I've finished updating the Near North maps. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 22:38, 5 December 2007 (EST)

Warehouse districtEdit

I hate to bring this up (since it could create a good amount of work), but I realized that we've really neglected the so-called "Warehouse District." It's split across the Near West Side and Wicker Park districts and we don't really have any information about it. I could drum up some listings, although I've only been in that area once, but should we consolidate it into one district? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:37, 4 December 2007 (EST)

*sigh of relief* — I was hoping you might be able to supply a good reason to put this task off :)
On a very different note, I've noticed that mdashes don't display at the proper width on Yucca, and therefore display poorly unless surrounded by spaces. So as much as my Chicago Manual of Style-touting-self hates to do this, I'm planning to standardize to your preferred hyphenation across the guide. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:36, 5 December 2007 (EST)

Hutchinson StEdit

Huh? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:55, 7 December 2007 (EST)

Ah, sorry, the confusion was mostly the result of a night well spent, not your message. I'm guessing your dreamt recollection was inspired by what I did for the Walk of Fame on the Bronzeville map? I basically did the same tonight for the Astor St Historical district. For the other historical districts in Old Town/Lincoln Park, unfortunately, I did not come up with a map solution that works in black & white (let me know if you have any ideas). Also let me know if you like what I did with Astor St, and I'll make the quick change to the Uptown map. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:52, 8 December 2007 (EST)
On a different note, do you have plans for the understand sections on the Loop and the Near West Side? If you don't, I'm sure I could come up with something. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:54, 8 December 2007 (EST)


What's with all the Bella internet cafes in your old neighborhood? Are they all so pretty and Italian? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:34, 13 December 2007 (EST)


Hey, I think I'm almost ready to declare satisfaction with the Loop article. Would you mind adding a couple brief descriptions for the architecture listings you put in earlier? Also, do you have any more listings you're planning to add? If not, I'll update the map and call it done. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:03, 13 December 2007 (EST)

Sounds good. I'll get the Loop map up and running ASAP and I'm already done filling out the Rogers Park map save the see/do listings (I'll wait for the beaches). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:48, 14 December 2007 (EST)
Yep, I just finished with the Loop. I'm looking forward to moving that out of the "almost ready" section! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 17:51, 14 December 2007 (EST)
No kidding about those sw "hotels"—I hadn't even noticed! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 01:20, 16 December 2007 (EST)
Agreed, as I'm updating the map, it definitely no longer looks like we're just pushing for adequacy. The Loop Art Tour also sets my mind at ease, since I wanted that content in our Loop coverage, but fitting it all in one article would be maddening.
I'm now running through all the print-ready articles to double check their perfection in pdf format. With Rogers Park soon to be done, I suppose all we have left to do before publishing is finish the Logan-Bucktown article? The city overview map has been taking me to school, but I'm just a few hours away from finishing it. I'm kind of hoping I might run off some copies at a local print shop this week! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 03:15, 16 December 2007 (EST)
That Edgewater photo is golden for the online version. For the print version, I've been using just one photo per article except in a few rare instances to cut down on our page length (well over 400p now), and I was leaning towards the same pic you used for the online lead image. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 18:18, 16 December 2007 (EST)
Any part of Chicago/Logan-Bucktown that you could use help with? --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:34, 17 December 2007 (EST)

Far NW photosEdit

Do you have any thoughts on what we should do for the Far NW lead photo in the book? It needs to be wider than it is tall, so we can't use the online lead image. I'm using Mr Steer right now, which brings a smile to my face each time I see it, but I'm not sure that someone reading the book would have any idea what he has to do with the Far NW. There is nothing else on the internet under a compatible license (but there is an infuriating, endless sea of nice Portage Theater shots with the "non-commercial" CC license). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 03:14, 17 December 2007 (EST)

We could also use a new lead image for the Near West Side. The current web lead is too small for print, so I'm using the Jordan statue picture, but I'm just not convinced that picture is really good enough for the lead. But I suppose this isn't a very big deal. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 19:15, 17 December 2007 (EST)
I was actually thinking the same thing about the neighborhoods section (that it's redundant) — I was toying with an idea of dropping all descriptions from the districts section and just using that as a navigational tool. But I suppose it makes just as much sense to drop it from the understand and expand the ==districts== part a bit (at least in the print version). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:27, 18 December 2007 (EST)

Chicago overview mapEdit

Do you have any suggestions re: the overview map I uploaded? I have a few more things still that I'd like to do with it, but I'd appreciate your input. The Rogers Park article is looking beautiful, by the way. Seems like a pretty fantastic part of the city to live. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 00:07, 19 December 2007 (EST)

Have fun in Europe! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:52, 19 December 2007 (EST)
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