Talk:Egypt/Archive 2004-2013

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The original Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import has been moved to Talk:Egypt/CIA World Factbook 2002 import should it be needed for future reference. -- (WT-en) Huttite 03:17, 12 Apr 2004 (EDT)

Sources for further reseach

Seat 61 [www.seat61.com/Egypt.htm]

Egyptian Railways [1] Unofficial site with downloadable timetables, maps and information on the egyptian railway system.

Ancient Near East .net - Ancient Egypt - provides a convenient listing of online guides to archaeological sites in Egypt

For a Fact Sheet on touring by Bicycle, see :

http://users.utu.fi/mjkain/egypt/factsheet/

(WT-en) Cacahuate 04:54, 2 December 2006 (EST)

IMHO, for things like railways, if there is no official site, then the next best thing should be used. (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:17, 2 December 2006 (EST)

That's a valid opinion, but it doesn't jibe with our external links guideline. If there's no official site, we don't put in a link. --(WT-en) Evan 07:57, 2 December 2006 (EST)

Exchange rates reference

Online rate check: USD | GBP | EUR | AUD | NZD | CAD | JPY | INR |

--(WT-en) DenisYurkin 00:28, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Conflicting information?

Is the abbreviation for the Egyptian Pound EGP or LE? LE is used in the exchange-rate table, but EGP is in the text. 4.243.146.84 23:30, 28 December 2006 (EST)

→ Talk:Cairo#Money. I'll add a note about this to the Buy section. (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:36, 28 December 2006 (EST)

According to Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pound on 01/15/2013, the ISO code is officially EGP to reference the Egyptian pound (analogous to an American dollar). There is also a piastre (analogous to an American cent, or 1/100 of a dollar). However, symbols used to reference the Egyptian pound vary in practice: EGP, LE, E£ or ج.م, (for the piastre, it is Qirsh, Pt.). Perhaps the simplest would be a link to that page. Dorthea Glenn (talk)

return trip to Luxor

Due to a two-tier pricing structure fares can be more than four times as expensive for foreigners than locals but still relatively cheap — for example a return day trip to Luxor is about $150.

A return trip to Luxor -- from where? From Cairo? From some European city? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:18, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

personal experience with taxi

Moving from article text; to be rewritten back to the article according to MoS. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 04:10, 10 July 2007 (EDT)

We visited Egypt in February 2007. HOWEVER; many taxis are still dirty, as are some drivers. They will quote you one price and then raise it at the end of the trip. Some drive as if they have a death wish. [RJM105]It's a good idea to ask the police at your hotel to get a taxi for you; it's often one that they know.

Bargaining

There should be a dedicated exclusive paragraph on bargaining/haggling !! There should be a brief guide on how to outmanuovre egyptian street-vendors, shopkeepers, on-site tourist-guides, etc etc. I spent a couple of months in Egypt recently, and i especially recall one so-called 'bedouin'(?) guy with a donkey at Saqqara who was obstinately nagging me to ride his donkey and take a picture with their kind of clothes on me, ENTIRELY FREE !!! I kept refusing consistently and smilingly, but relented when he almost started dragging me. He lifted me on the back of the donkey before I could realize and told my companion to take a picture. I immediately got down and started to walk away. Now the guy blocks me again and asks USD $ 100.00 for the opportunity to take picture on the back of his donkey :-), which was supposed to be FREE :-)) After a few minutes of adamant argument, I gave him Egyptian L.E. 01.00 and finally walked away . The crux of the matter is, this guy climbed down to Eg LE 01.00, 600th of the price he asked, ie. from USD 100.00 which he demanded for the opportunity to take a photo !! He probably thought after a hard bargain I may give him at least USD $ 50.00 or something and walk away with a feeling of false victory :-)) :-))

The moral of this is, these guys can and will ask for outrageous prices. Be sure about that. So don't be shy and be absolutely outrageous yourself when bargaining. Buy the way, haggling is part and pacel of the culture here. One seems to need this skill most in Khan-e Khalil.

Similar things happened to me everywhere in Egypt, from Alexandria to Abu Simbel, from Bahariya to Sharm al Sheikh.

Thanks for your input. In view of your concerns, I have added a link to the article on haggling to the Egypt - buy section. Take a look. (WT-en) WindHorse 07:50, 28 July 2007 (EDT)

nature reserves

I've moved this list here for now, those red links are tempting, but I'm doubtful that most of these actual need their own articles dedicated to them – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 18:34, 5 July 2008 (EDT)

There are 24 natural reserves in Egypt:

Dress

The common advice is for foreign women to cover up, with long sleeves, etc., as if that will ward off unwanted attention. When I packed to come to Egypt, I had that in mind and packed all long sleeve tops. But, at the last minute tossed a t-shirt into my luggage, and was sure glad I did and regretted packing just one t-shirt.

My experience is that as a foreign woman, you will get plenty of attention regardless of what you wear, and will be subjected to verbal/sexual harassment even if you try to cover up. Even Egyptian women, including those that wear the full hijab, regularly experience sexual harassment. With that being the case, at least in downtown Cairo, Zamalek, Ma'adi and other such areas during the hot summer months, it really didn't make a difference if I wore a t-shirt (or other nice, but short sleeve top) or long sleeves. You still want to dress nice though, but a nice short sleeve top is okay for foreign women. When with a group of foreigners, I would be even more comfortable with a short-sleeve top, since a group of foreigners will get attention no matter what. And, when going to the Giza Pyramids, sleeveless tops and shorts were fine for both women and men, and it the summer, the temperatures can be brutal around the Pyramids. (WT-en) Aude 23:36, 7 January 2009 (EST)

Your new wording is excellent, the old one was much too vague. However, while short-sleeve tops and T-shirts are one thing, travellers probably shouldn't emulate the busful of Italian highschoolers who showed up at the Citadel in Cairo in hotpants/miniskirts and plunging decollete... (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:23, 8 January 2009 (EST)

Average Temperatures and Daylight

It would be interesting to see what the average temperatures are if vauge they may give an idea of what months to travel and what months not to. Also ideas of sunrise/sunset including ref to Daylight saving observations?

Map

FYI, Sinai is spelled "Sanai" on the map.(WT-en) Zepppep 16:31, 6 October 2010 (EDT)

ok I fixed it (WT-en) –sumone10154 21:55, 8 February 2011 (EST)

Int. Student Identiy Card (ISIC)

So this card and its teacher counterpart (that I legitimately own) provide 50% discounts to essentially all tourist sites in Egypt. That seems like a very large point for people to know, however - where in the article (if anywhere) should it be? In the Buy section, or Sights, etc.?

(WT-en) Bbb0777 08:21, 19 March 2011 (EDT)

Since it's most useful for activities and sights, a note at the top of the "See" section seems like the right place to me. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:44, 19 March 2011 (EDT)

OK I added an info box, but it's the first time I've done so and it's a bit rubbish, so if anyone would like to improve upon it... (WT-en) Bbb0777 00:18, 21 March 2011 (EDT)

Warning boxes

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The travel warning box that has appeared in this article today seems very preachy and too extreme to me. The same box has been pasted into several Egyptian city articles as well. Would be good to get some opinions on this.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:48, 13 July 2011 (EDT)

Very much agree. I'd suggest replacing with Template:TravelAlert with whatever official government warnings have actually been issued. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 13:33, 13 July 2011 (EDT)

Given this from the normally ultra-cautious US Department of State, I am removing the warnings from all Egypt articles.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:58, 14 July 2011 (EDT)

I agree. Same with the [UK Foreign Office] and [German Auswärtiges Amt]. Just removed the warning boxes from Cairo again.--(WT-en) JochenvW 02:38, 17 July 2011 (EDT)

Given this most recent outbreak of violence, I've put the warning boxes back up. The situation is looking pretty bad and I'm seeing travel alerts from a lot of governments again (like the aforementioned UK Foreign Office). (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 19:08, 21 November 2011 (EST)

Acording to the UK Foreign Office, there are no travel restrictions in place (Updated 1.12.2011, reviewed today)! The situation at Tahrir has calmed down (been there yesterday). So I removed the warning box.--(WT-en) JochenvW 02:26, 4 December 2011 (EST)

-Time to put it back up. I was there today (December 16th), and violent clashes have broken out again. -People are dead (December 16th).

Rather than adding and deleting warning boxes endlessly, which would be a tedious and prone-to-error job (due to rapidly changing conditions), simply warn people generically on all sites:

_______________________

"Before departure, and throughout your trip, be sure to check for travel advisories from your government's official travel authorities, just like you should before and during a visit to ANY foreign country."

_______________________

I say this because If someone puts up information indicating that an area is safe one day (or takes down a warning), someone reads it, and someone gets killed or injured or captured, that author could potentially be held personally responsible in a court of law. Instead, simply let each country's official agencies issue warning and all-clear statements as appropriate--that is their job, not ours, IMHO. Dorthea Glenn (talk) 20:10, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

The kind of generic advisory you're suggesting should be in a general page about international travel, or even all kinds of travel. I believe that each country that needs a specific warning box should have one, and the number of volunteer editors here should increasingly be sufficient to keep those up to date. To give some extreme examples, it's certainly useful to travelers or potential travelers to be aware of the dangers they could face on a trip to Syria, Mali, Somalia, Afghanistan, or parts of the Congo. However, you may be right that in the particular case of Egypt, the situation is enough in flux that a general advisory to check current conditions from official travel authorities before leaving is the best precaution. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:10, 10 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Water Safety

Regarding the section on drinking water, I found (early 2008) that even well-to-do native Egyptians (anyone who could afford it) drank, cooked, and brushed their teeth only in bottled water.

I think we should add "teeth brushing" on the Page to the list of things to do only with safely bottled water because when I was there I didn't think twice about brushing my teeth in the bathroom water faucet.

Along those lines, is it safe to take a shower using local water, as I did? If walking on a freshly watered lawn (which was mentioned on the Page) isn't safe, my guess is that neither is bathing (showering or in a tub), where water can easily get in your mouth, eyes, and ears. Bathing and washing hair using only bottled water or some sort of wet-wipes-from-home method sounds tedius and insufficient, especially compared to a day of sightseeing in the Cairo/pyramid dust and pollution. Note, however, that I stayed in the best accommodations and did NOT get sick at all during my 2-week trip. Dorthea Glenn (talk)

Khan el-Khalili

Latest comment: 11 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

In the Destinations section, I propose adding the following:

Valley of the Queens this valley is where the queens were buried, not far from the Valley of the Kings.
Workers' city this active excavation is where the workers on the tombs in the Valley of the Kings and Queens lived.
Khan el-Khalili (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_el-Khalili) (Arabic: خان الخليلي‎) no trip to Cairo would be complete without visiting "the Khan", as it is often called; it is one of the largest and oldest bazaars (called "souks") in the world.
Temple of Hatshepsut this architecturally stunning temple was built for Queen Hatshepsut, one of only a few women who ruled alone as Pharaoh, and is a must-see for any tourist. Dorthea Glenn (talk) 18:52, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

These are all red links, and there are already 12 "Other destinations," - 3 too many. Souks and temples generally don't get their own articles, in any case, but are listed under "See" in the appropriate destination guide: See wiaa. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:57, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Khan el Kalili is the highlight of [Cairo] and the other three are very well covered inside the Luxor article where they belong. 186.222.134.220 19:01, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

I agree completely in principle with what you're saying, but then the current "Other Destinations" list includes temples and all manner of things that don't seem to pass that logic. This Wiki page is about Egypt, not just Cairo, so we should think ot the top 12 (?) things that Egypt is famous for. Each item should be a highlight of all of Egypt not just of Cairo. I would say that the Valley of the Queens must be listed IF we list the Valley of the Kings (both or none), and as a pharaoh of upper and lower Egypt (and because of her remarkable story) I think Hatshepsut's unique temple should be listed as a treasure of all of Egypt if we mention Karnak. We might also mention pyramids, the sphinx, and the new library at Alexandria, which I hear is a stunning replacement for the original one that, tragically, burned. Dorthea Glenn (talk) 20:38, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm glad to have you on board, and you certainly know more about Egypt than I do. But I would at least say this: No red-linked attraction should be highlighted on a list of Egyptian destinations. If it's indispensable to link Valley of the Queens, an article about that valley has to be written first, and it has to pass the test in wiaa. As for Hatsheput's temple in Karnak, the thing to do is to list Karnak as a destination and mention the temple in the description of Karnak. So please go ahead and edit the description of Karnak in the "Other destinations" list (though without making it too verbose, as this is just an overview). Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:16, 10 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

"Other destinations" vs. "See": Combine?

Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I don't see the point in having two separate sections (separated by a fair amount of text) containing this type of information. I propose we combine them into one section called "Must see" and re-write the explanatory text to the longer, more descriptive style currently used in the "Other destinations" section Dorthea Glenn (talk) 19:02, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Little things not to miss

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I propose that we add a new section (potentially called "Little things not to miss", but I hope there's a better way of saying that) with the little things that visitors should take notice of; things that might be missed and not covered in their travel guides. Specific examples include:

The floating souk that occurs while the boats wait for their turn to get through the Aswan Dam to lower (southern) Egypt. Sellers in questionable-looking boats fling merchandise up to the people on the tall cruise ships, while passengers attempt to catch the items. Some items end up on the upper deck floor, the canopy over the upper deck, in the water (wherein someone, usually a boy, jumps in and returns to the boat. Bargaining occurs in a confused manner, but sales are often made and the customer fetches their merchandise and throws down the agreed-upon amount of money.

The Nilometers. Most temples have them. There is a narrow staircase leading down to the Nile, and on the wall of that staircase are high water marks and dates, so you can see how high the Nile flooded over the millenia. Some have markings from recent decades.

The meticulously painted starry night skies that cover the ceilings of almost every covered site throughout Egypt, regardless of dynasty or politics. Everywhere you go, there is a deep cobalt blue sky, and in it are many imperfectly shaped but yet identical yellow stars, placed exactly the same distance apart regardless of the size of the tomb or temple.

Don't forget to buy the little paper books from the kids selling them near the various sites--they aren't available in the souks or shops near hotels. They're very cheap, in any case, so if you don't like them you won't be out much money.

Don't skip King Tut's tomb. Despite the fact that his mummy was taken out for scientific testing for a short while, he is back in his tomb in a carefully constructed glass coffin that controls the moisture and prevents his body from decaying.

"When in Egypt..." This is definitely the place to get your name, and the names of everyone you know, engraved in hieroglyphics and placed on a necklace. It's inexpensive and takes them very little time. Some sellers will take your order and then deliver it to your hotel's concierge, so it will be ready for you the next morning. Some necklaces are one-sided, some are two sided, and the price will tell you the real gold content of what you're buying. (But don't forget to bargain!)

Bring heavy sunscreen and a big-brimmed hat or you will be suffering from sunburn almost immediately.

If you're looking for the gift shop for the Cairo museum, exit the main front door, turn left following the building, and enter the first shop around the next left-hand corner.

Cotton scarves, long and in vibrant colors are plentiful and vary a lot in price. Generally 3-4 EGP is a fair price if there is a group of people all buying one or more scarves at the same time.

A Gallabeya is another great take-away. Worn by men and women alike, these usually colorful and embroidered garments are plentiful in the souks. Don't forget to have the seller give you a lesson in how to tie the scarf (sold separately) around your head in native fashion, too.

Egyptians have a great sense of humor, and are always smiling. Even with a great language barrier you can take time to enjoy a good joke or two. Marriage proposals from three separate boys at the same time, a man walking in the Khan with two women might be called "lucky for he has two wives" and he might respond that he is "unlucky because he has two wives".

Take care not to get lost in the Khan, however, for the alleys are narrow and very crowded with both tourists and Egyptians alike shopping there for essentials. Make certain that you have, or bring, someone with a good sense of direction.

Bring your own toilet paper or be prepared to pay 1 EGP for one square. Toilet paper is generally not provided in public stalls, though it is, of course, in the hotels.

Drink LOTS of water. You're in a desert and won't notice how dry you are getting due to evaporation through your skin until it is too late and you are dehydrated. Always have a bottle of water with you. Water is supplied with most tours, though typically not chilled. Ensure that the safety ring around the top of your bottle has not been broken--that indicates that someone has recycled a bottle of water by refilling it with Egyptian tap water and it will probably make you sick.

Something along those lines. Would content like that be inappropriate for this Wiki? Dorthea Glenn (talk) 19:50, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Most of that information should be placed in an appropriate section, not a section of random tips. We try to avoid lists of tips. The information is welcome isn't inappropriate though, though. AHeneen (talk) 19:58, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Egypt warning box

Latest comment: 10 years ago10 comments4 people in discussion

some text copied from Frank's talk page

Thanks for adding warning box atop Egypt article. Much appreciated Frank. Btw, do you think a similar warning box should be added to major Egyptian city article as well? --Saqib (talk) 20:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

I've no recent, special local knowledge, but listening to the BBC here in Glasgow, Yes Sir! --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 20:14, 3 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Would you please not add links in warning boxes? News evolve and the link to an outdated article stays. Also it is not exactly in line with our xl policy. Regards,jan (talk) 09:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

I don't agree.

The traveller comes first and both the British and Canadian governments update their travel advisories on a daily basis.

The link to the BBC is an on-line news report that is updated live continuously. Click on all these links and do the appropriate research before you remove them in future!

When the warning box is outdated it should be removed - so, I'm afraid that argument doesn't pass muster either.

Can you quote me the policy or discussion that says I shouldn't use these external links to warn travellers?

Keep cool! --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 09:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

You are long enough around to know better: What not to link to is pretty clear Newspaper and magazine articles should not be linked to. Even though the BBC might have updates at some point they will stop that live coverage and it will become outdated. TTCF says we focus on traveller needs but thats hardly a live ticker link on WV. Links to Foreign ministries are always a bit difficult due to political aspects. In certain circumstance they have been included in the Stay safe section. Btw: I'm relaxed but would wish you would start reading policies first before insulting me not doing research. jan (talk) 11:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

It certainly wasn't my intention to insult you. The edit comment related to my suspicion that you had not actually clicked on and examined properly the BBC's live and continuously updated news report.

I'd like to quote my puppet (</sarcasm>): "the consensus seemed to be that, generally, these government advisories were a "good idea", but we have to walk a tightrope here (especially since some advisories are subject to political influence and nanny-stateism) between our current xl policies and our common duty of humanity to warn the traveller where unexpected and severe dangers may exist".

1) I agree with the advice given at What not to link to that you should avoid linking to "Newspaper and magazine articles". That's because these are typically static and quickly outdated. Live continuously updated situation reports from the news organisation with more overseas correspondents than any other and a reputation for neutrality and truthfulness are in a different category

2) What not to link to says that "Providing a link to a weather forecast for the destination is okay." - presumably because this is helpful to the traveller and it's difficult to continuously provide such continuously changing info in the actual text of this wiki. If it's important to the traveller to avoid getting wet, I suggest it's even more important to avoid getting shot.

3) We should have removed the warning box before the point that the BBC have stopped that live coverage. If that's not the case, then at that time that the linked BBC coverage ceases to be topical and useful the xl should be removed

4) The relevant discussion around the specialised template seemed to sanction the government travel advisory links: Template_talk:Warningbox#Government_travel_advice and this evidenced by the documentation currently displayed for this template --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 16:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Conflict is going on in Egypt not here so please stay cool both of you. But I agree with Frank here that we should give links to news articles and government travel advisories when it comes to use for the warning box. --Saqib (talk) 17:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

@Saqib, it is WV policy not to link to articles as stated above in our policies. That is my key point and i only wanted to remind the user of that issue. I'm well aware of live tickers for now about every "breaking news" but usually these stop way before the crisis is over (see e.g. the earthquake in Christchurch). Therefore travellers should look to more than one source (the old lady is a good source but definitely not the only one). I understand the point for travel advisories during crisis and would have been more open to discuss that but W.Frank added that point later on(i only reverted the BBC link). I have a relaxed day and only surprised by the rather harsh reaction to a policy reminder.jan (talk) 19:32, 4 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

jan: I don't think it's relevant to the rationale I've tried to advance but, on a point of fact, the xl's to the government travel advisories were right there from the very first.

My broad point is that I think you were wrong about policy not allowing under any circumstances a link to a trusted and continuously updated news source. Did you notice this phrase on the xl page: "In-article text links: Links within the article text should be kept to a minimum and should point only to primary sources. Examples of valid links might include airline companies, bus companies, and sites offering daily updates and warnings about a destination's condition" (my boldening added) ?

Let's hope that the long-suffering people of Egypt are able to agree on a new regime quickly and peacefully and the warning box ("naughty links" and all) can be removed - especially given that many familys' incomes are heavily dependent on tourism. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 19:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

I haven't read all this, but tend to agree with Jan about news articles and sites. We then need to make a decision over who has the best coverage, what coverage is relevant, we would need to keep updating the link to a new article as the situation develops, etc. That's not our job to continually keep track of the news, and I doubt travellers will come to us for that sort of info anyway. The Government travel advisories are the best source (although biased), and we agreed on them by consensus. James A ▪ talk 02:02, 5 July 2013 (UTC)Reply

Unnecessarily complex HTML table

Latest comment: 10 years ago8 comments2 people in discussion

Currently there is the following HTML:

: USD1 = EGP6.9   /   €1 = EGP9.1   /   GBP1 = EGP10.8   /   CHF1 = EGP7.4  /  CAD1 = EGP6.6   /   ¥100 = EGP7

to produce:

USD1 = EGP6.9 / €1 = EGP9.1 / GBP1 = EGP10.8 / CHF1 = EGP7.4 / CAD1 = EGP6.6 / ¥100 = EGP7

I may be abstruse, but since I can not detect any CSS or other styling which is actually using the (currency name) spans, I propose changing this to:

:USD1 = EGP6.9
:€1 = EGP9.1
:GBP1 = EGP10.8
:CHF1 = EGP7.4
:CAD1 = EGP6.6
:JPY100 = EGP7

to produce:

USD1 = EGP6.9

€1 = EGP9.1

GBP1 = EGP10.8

CHF1 = EGP7.4

CAD1 = EGP6.6

JPY100 = EGP7

Any objections ? --W. Frank^email_talk 13:04, 7 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Mmmmm, this is surprising,I asked if there were any objections, and now this edit has changed what I executed after allowing a reasonable time for objections.

I do object to the removal of the Chinese reminbi exchange rate. W're not exactly short of space, and the Egyptian government has been making a particular effort to attract more Chinese travellers:

http://www.economist.com/news/business/21577089-turmoil-has-scared-all-rugged-and-russians-arab-spring-break

http://english.nuqudy.com/North_Africa/Germans,_Chinese_Re-3050

http://www.china-mike.com/facts-about-china/facts-tourism-travel-statistics/

http://www.abou-alhool.com/english1/details.php?id=24320#.UjLRpX85xm4

If the removal is because this editor can not maintain 7 exchange rates rather than 6 each month, then I am a little surprised since the rates are readily available here.

I also think it is a mistake to interpose lengthy text such as "one Great Britain pound sterling" between the two corresponding amounts, and I intend to change that fault immediately. Again, I think the HTML to centre is unnecessary and does not assist clarity.

Anybody who is carrying the relevant currency will not be confused by the internationally recognised symbols for the currency they wish to change from and our target audience is not locals who may want to change into Swiss francs to get out of the rapidly depreciating Egyptian pound. --W. Frank^email_talk 19:51, 13 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

If you're not worried about complexity - or taking up a lot of space - then I suppose you could use something like this:

In September 2013
for	ISO 4217 international currency code	you'd get about this number of Egyptian pounds (EGP)
1 euro	€1	9.1
1 US dollar	USD1	6.9
1 pound sterling	GBP1	10.9	(Bank of England notes - Northern Ireland and Scots notes get less)
1 Canadian dollar	CAD1	6.6
1 Swiss franc	CHF1	7.4
1 Chinese renminbi	CNY1	1.1
100 Japanese yen	JPY100	7.0

--W. Frank^email_talk 00:43, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

I don't think that Money section should be reverted or have its style changed again, as of that edit. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 12:22, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

To W. Frank: Why do you keep on unreasonably changing the order or the currencies? I am sorting them according to which currencies are mostly exchanged. You are consistently reverting my updates to the exchange rates. What is that?! How many pounds sterlings are there? As far as I know there is only one pound sterling, which is the English currency. All exchange rates are different when you actually go to the bank to exchange them, they would exchange them for less. To be realistic, foreigners almost always exchange currencies from only the three currencies (US dollar, Euro or pound sterling), I put all the rest as complementary. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 16:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

I realise that neither of us have English as a mother tongue, but communication requires that you do not continue to neglect to answer my questions nor ignore my replies to your own questions, Mahmudmasri.

I have asked you repeatedly above to address your continued deletion of such currencies as the Chinese renminbi.

My edit summary of "no reason not to show CNY exchange rates" should have given you a clue as to why I ("unreasonably"!!!???!!!!) edited (I rarely use the revert button with good faith edits) the table the way I did.

I also added back in the notes column to the example table above (that your edit removed) so that the following note could be introduced: "(Bank of England notes - Northern Ireland and Scots notes get less). That should have given you another clue as to "How many pounds sterlings are there? As far as I know there is only one pound sterling, which is the English currency". I don't want to bore you with the complexities of the home nations of the United Kingdom but to write, as you did "1 Great Britain pound sterling" is both grammatically and numismatically incorrect. I restored "1 pound sterling" because this is effectively a multi-national currency (like CFA francs are). Pounds sterling are not only used in Wales, Scotland and England on the huge island of "Great Britain", they are also the official currency in Gibraltar, Northern Ireland and Tristan da Cunha.

If you think the order should be by popularity of currencies exchanged, I have no difficulty with that. However I am amazed to see you imply that US Dollars and the euro are not in the top three currencies exchanged in Egypt!

Exchange rates are not just given in the Egypt country article and my stance is that, with very rare exceptions, US Dollars and the euro should both be featured and come at the top of these Forex tables and I'd also question why such common (but lesser used) currencies as the Canadian dollar, pound sterling, Swiss franc, Japanese yen or Chinese Renminbi should be removed (unless there is some weird local prohibition, of course).

Factually, you would be simply wrong to write that Canadian dollars, pounds sterling, Swiss francs, Japanese yen or Chinese Renminbi can not be exchanged for Egyptian pounds at Cairo Airport and Egyptian banks and several bureaux de change.

Finally, your points about changeability and variability are already addressed by my edit of both the caption and column heading.

In summary: update the rates and change the order when necessary, but please convince us all on this talk page first before removing currencies, columns, notes or the names and notations of the currencies.

--W. Frank^email_talk 16:46, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm absolutely not hindered by communicating in English, but it seems that you misunderstood me and I didn't know what exactly did you tell me in the previous discussion.

Anyway, did you notice that I updated the exchange rates that you changed earlier and earlier? Those were the unreasonable reverts/edits I referred to. It is unreasonable to me that the updated values were reverted repeatedly.

About the order of currencies. I was ordering them based on which are the currencies mostly exchanged in Egypt. The order starts with the US dollar, then the Euro, then the pound sterling. The pound sterling of England which is used in a couple of other places. I have no idea whether there were other currencies ambiguously named with the same name, but it is 100% understood for Egyptians and the people who come to Egypt that the pound sterling is the currency of England. We even call it in Egyptian Arabic: genē esterlīni and the Egyptian currency: genē or to disambiguate it: genē masri. So both mainly have the same name, but are perfectly distinguishable. No need at all to notice in the table that it's the currency of England in that article either!

About the Chinese currency, well I have to tell you that foreigners coming to Egypt, usually come with US dollars only, no matter where they come from and they calculate exchange rates based on the US dollars.

I was saying in my previous comments up there that the three currencies, US dollar, euro and the (standard) pound sterling are the most popularly exchanged currencies in Egypt. Other currencies are very rarely exchanged, even rarer than the Persian Gulf states' currencies.

I was removing the unnecessarily complex HTML from the table (the width definition) as it seemed that using too much HTML was annoying to you. That's it.

By the way, in proper punctuation, the unites have to be preceded by a non-breaking space. The non-breaking space is written as  . The space should be non-breakable, which means that if the number came at the end of the screen, as for 17 °C, would always be stuck next to each other, not be separated with a part at the end of a line and the other at the beginning of the next line. The first two examples are correct demonstrations:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 17 °C

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
17 °C

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 17
°C

Am I understood now? Best Regards. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 22:12, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm going to draw a deep breath before I start putting pictures of pound sterling banknotes from countries other than England on this page and deal with the easy stuff first:

Please read HTML. Once you have made the decision to use HTML at all (rather than just plain MediaWiki formatting), then you need to use enough HTML to do the job. The "width:90%;" stops the table overflowing the page width.

You're right in thinking that our MoS suggests using a non-breaking space between the amount and its accompanying units for most units. We do indeed recommend to use a non-breaking space HTML entity for this.

Unfortunately you happen to have picked one of the exceptions: "Except for measurements of temperature and voltage, we have a mild preference for separating the number from its associated unit by a single space..." (my emphasis added)

Goodnight. --W. Frank^email_talk 01:45, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Money section

Latest comment: 10 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

The current table looks very ugly and with unnecessarily long phrases when they could be reduced. Why does the word "approximate" have to be underlined and made oblique? No need to make extra attention to the word since it is the first in the sentence.

Why is there a need to add the (EGP) next to the already long phrase "you'd get about this number of Egyptian pounds" when the abbreviation was already written many times at the same section and it is very explicit what is the table referring to. Tables are supposed to be concise.

How was the English wrong there? I can write value to mean "for each one value of the following, I get that", or "for the following values, I get those".

W. Frank, you make me feel that you just don't like my edits and that's it. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 15:56, 20 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Mahmudmasri, please take reverts and changes from W.Frank with a grain of salt. Frank is not good in finding solutions, see e.g. Talk:Northern_Ireland#Citizenship to get an idea on how irrational his behaviour can be. Several administrators have warned Frank about his abusive behaviour User_talk:W._Frank#Get_a_hold_of_yourself and he is close to a block. Please ignore the non-consensual behaviour. In case you can't agree with Frank, either engage with one of the admins or request help on this talkpage or in the pub. Franks opinion is far from being the consensual opinion of this community. jan (talk) 16:07, 20 September 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm genuinely sorry if I've made you feel that way, Mahmudmasri.

Before I started the series of changes I have made to the display of currency exchange rates in our Egypt article, I did call for comments here on this page, but neither you nor Jan (who has now left our project) responded.

Hopefully you now have this page on your watch list so that we can discuss any controversial changes and come to a rational decision based, as Jan correctly indicates, on an informed consensus of interested editors. Please do not hesitate to e-mail me if you feel at any time that I do not value your edits - I definitely do, especially as you are on the spot and have extensive local knowledge.

Here is another example of what can be achieved if editors are respectful of each others point(s) of view and interact in a civil manner to try and improve our travel guides. --W. Frank^email_talk 14:46, 5 October 2013 (UTC)Reply