Hello, everybody! If you'd like to discuss anything with me, please post new topics at the bottom of the page and sign the posts with 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row. Thanks!

Currently inactive discussions can be found at User talk:Ikan Kekek/archive. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:50, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Jazz vs bluesEdit

Hey there. I was just wondering if as a musician, you think we should cover the differences between the two genres in one of our articles. After all, many tourists visit the U.S. to listen to both genres of music, and they do share many similarities as both are of African-American origin, and someone who is not experienced could easily confuse the two. The dog2 (talk) 18:00, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Well, I mean, by that logic why not also cover rock and roll in that article too? Honestly, I think that despite springing from the same well, jazz and blues are distinct enough from each other in their history, tourist-related POIs, etc. that we'd be doing readers a disservice lumping them together. Anyone who wants to explore both jazz and blues music on their visit to the U.S. can consult both the Jazz and Blues articles (and if the latter doesn't exist yet, it should). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:31, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
Fair point. Unfortunately, I'm not well-versed enough in the history of the blues to start the article, but if someone can get that going, I'd be happy to contribute. Speaking of which, from doing a few Google searches, I came across some tour itineraries about the "Americana music triangle" of Nashville (country music), Memphis (blues) and New Orleans (jazz). Perhaps something we analogous could create here is an "American Southern music cities" road trip starting in Bristol, Tennessee and ending in Lafayette, Louisiana, passing though some important cities such as Clarksdale, Knoxville and Baton Rouge. The dog2 (talk) 19:09, 25 September 2019 (UTC)


I agree with Andre on jazz and the blues. I'd be interested in knowing more about the itinerary. Austin is a big music city, too, though Texas isn't treated as part of the South on this site. And maybe Miami for Cuban music? Which cities in Mississippi have an interesting music scene, nowadays? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:07, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
This is one of the web-sites I came across: [1]. I've never been to Mississippi or Tennessee so I don't know what the scene is like now, but I just got back from a trip to Louisiana, and New Orleans definitely has a happening music scene. Of course there's the traditional jazz, but there are also plenty of bands that are playing modern variants of New Orleans jazz. One that I got to listen to live was called the Jumbo Shrimp Jazz Band. Over in Lafayette, they have the traditional Cajun-style music, which makes extensive use of the accordion. My understanding about Mississippi though is that Clarksdale is regarded as the birthplace of the blues, so that would be a stop on make on such an itinerary. And Bristol, Tennessee is supposed to be where the first country music record was produced. Of course, Knoxville was where Dolly Parton started her career, so that could be a destination. And I think for the purpose of the itinerary, we can consider Texas to be part of the South. The dog2 (talk) 02:48, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
That's quite an interesting site. Another thought I had is that Sheffield, Alabama (no Wikivoyage article) might be a place of pilgrimage for fans of rock 'n' roll recorded at Mussel Shoals Studio. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:37, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Guided Tours section of Pennsylvania Dutch Country pageEdit

Hi, I saw that you removed the "Guided Tours" listings on https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch_Country. I also got your Talk message. Just wanted to follow up about that.

You mentioned "You also need to read the site's tour listing policy. Most tours can't be listed at all."

Each of the businesses that had been listed meet all 6 of the requirements on https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Listings#Tour_listings

None of those tour guides run tours where "...the substance of such tours can generally be fulfilled by an independent traveller". An independent traveler can't walk onto the private property of Amish folks and talk with them. These bus/scooter tours allow for that. The tours of the Amish are each unique because they offer tourists the chance to learn about different Amish farms (none of which are publicly accessible apart from the tour).

Also, all of those guided tours are in "Pennsylvania Dutch Country". That's why they're listed on that page. Sure, they could be listed on individual city pages, but if you're a tourist visiting "PA Dutch Country", you're looking for info about the Amish. Whereas, if you're looking to visit (city), you may be looking for info about a variety of things (which includes, but isn't exclusive to) the Amish.

With that being the case, could you please undo your edit: https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Pennsylvania_Dutch_Country&oldid=3850308

--JustinSayin (talk) 21:27, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanation. Site policy is to list tours in the article for the locality where they are headquartered (or, failing that, start from). The appropriate thing to do in the region article is to mention guided tours under "Do" as an activity, giving the background information you just put on this talk page, and state with Wikivoyage links the names of towns where tours originate. Do not list, link or even use the names of specific tours or tour agencies in the region article. In articles for localities, either in an introduction to the "Guided tours" subsection if there is more than one guided tour starting from that town or in the listing, if there's only one tour originating from that town, you should include a similar summary of the points you made here. It would not only justify listings but also help inform the traveler. Thanks a lot.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:01, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Few questionsEdit

In addition to my reply on my talk to you, as I am improving Katowice, I have few questions:

  • why is there no 'add listing' for the learn section?
  • pl wikivoyage for Katowice describes local cuisine. Can I add some notes about famous local dishes to Eat section?
  • how can we mention / link to stuff like https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlak_Zabytk%C3%B3w_Techniki_Wojew%C3%B3dztwa_%C5%9Al%C4%85skiego (no eng wiki article yet), it is quite useful for tourist (government-supoorted lists of local monuments in the form of a trail)?
  • should I create listings for the large shopping malls? Right now they are mentioned in the Buy section in text.
  • I've added entries for some attractions located on the border of Katowice and nearby Chorzów; some of them are technically located in Chorzów, but locals tend to see them as 'shared'. Anyway, is it ok to list them in the main article or should they be removed?

--Piotrus (talk) 07:03, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your work and your questions!
(1) I think there's no "add listing" for the "Learn" section because it's an optional section. What should be in that section is anyplace that provides classes either a visitor of ~2 weeks or less (or perhaps a summer) can take (e.g., Polish language classes for beginners, cooking classes, classes in Polish dances or music) and/or universities that take students on a year abroad, and the things to emphasize are how they are useful and/or attractive to such visitors.
(2) Yes, absolutely mention famous local dishes! It's probably most helpful to put those in an introductory section before the listings of places to eat.
(3) For this one, I suggest you bring it up at Talk:Katowice, because it will need a discussion, as Wikipedia articles of that type are not usually linked, but exceptions can be made by consensus. So make an argument for how it's so helpful to visitors that we should include it as an exception to normal guidelines.
(4) Yes, create listings for shopping malls.
(5) Yes, this is OK. You can mention in the lede or "Understand" section that Chorzów is also covered in this article - unless you plan on creating a separate article about that town, and in that case, we can't have the same listings in two articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:48, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

An award for you!Edit

  The Wikivoyage Barncompass
Hey thanks for the kind words re: the American Cuisine article. It sort of became a hobby over the last couple of months. Beeelb (talk) 22:14, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
You deserve this barncompass more than I. Thanks! Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:16, 4 October 2019 (UTC)


I've started a page. Any comments appreciated. Not sure why pagebanner is not working... --Piotrus (talk) 14:22, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

What should it be doing if it were working? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:25, 8 October 2019 (UTC)


Thanks for correcting me, and more than my reverted one-letter un-correction, thanks for the remaining stuff that needed it. About my attempt of improvement, I wasn't sure, I just put the two "XXX year/s/ old" in coherence, from what seemed to me the most /logical/ — but well, logics and writing make the pair, as we use to say in french. Best --Eric.LEWIN (talk) 06:17, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Sure thing. Hyphenated adjectives are a sort of pet peeve of mine. They seem very unpopular with other editors on this site, and I'm not sure why. And welcome to Wikivoyage! I'll post a welcome message with some useful links on your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:20, 8 October 2019 (UTC)


100px Thank you for the mercy you gave to an tired student.
oO ( Thank you for your careful help. I hope you are always happy...) Tichiel (talk) 07:10, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
Sure thing. It's all about collaborating. Have a great day! And do let me know if you have any questions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:09, 11 October 2019 (UTC)


I see your point, but I know that bano and mujer are words in Spanish. I was guessing about the one listed for "men" — because I was guessing, I did not remove that one. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:01, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

How many English words would you guess are borrow words from foreign languages? What about foreign words used in Malay? Don't guess that a Spanish word can't also be a Quechua word. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:13, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, well you reverted it, so it's fine. I don't care much either way. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:21, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi thereEdit

Your feedback here would be most valuable. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:58, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Done. Shocking for an admin to edit war. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:32, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Isn't he a bureaucrat, too? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:40, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Yep. But it would be shocking, regardless, for an admin to do that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:16, 15 October 2019 (UTC)


hello, we saw your message; by group project we mean that its a class, the 4 of us belong to a college class, and we are new to creating articles in general thus all the template and style problems. Also we believe that Woodside, queens has enough reasons to have an article of its own, and we will follow up on the Talk:Queens. Our next class will be on Thursday and we will work on it.

We appreciate your opinion and ask you very kindly to be patient with us, as we are just learning. Kind Regards, Jondiaz121 (talk) 15:55, 17 October 2019 (UTC)—The preceding comment was added by Jondiaz121 (talkcontribs)

Hi, J, and thanks for explaining.
First, a procedural point: When you post to talk pages, please sign your posts by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of the post. Second, I appreciate your enthusiasm and hope you add as much useful content as possible. Whether it remains in a separate article or not is of secondary concern at most.
Third, I'd like you to read the "Plunge forward" article, especially the "...But don't be reckless!!" section. Relevant excerpt:
Don't be afraid of making mistakes, but at the same time be aware that there are certain cases where you might find that your edit receives extra scrutiny, or may be undone by others:
  • Changes to regional organization. A lot of effort goes into splitting up huge cities into districts, or splitting up larger regions into smaller ones, so in cases where the regional breakdown was the result of lengthy discussion changes should usually be proposed on the article talk page first.
Since you didn't propose the changes on Talk:Queens before making them, it's important for you to start a thread there. In it, address not only how there are so many points of interest in Woodside that a separate article is required in in the interest of travelers, but also precisely what boundaries you are proposing for Woodside (and, preferably, all the other Wikivoyage districts for Queens, because we've never reached a conclusion about their exact boundaries).
And the article, if approved, would be named Queens/Woodside.
Thanks a lot.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:20, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
Hello Ikan kekek thanks for your help, as you may know we are new at wikivoyage therefore we are lerning. our profesor ask as to create an article at wikivoyage for woodside since woodside didndt have one. for now we are going to try to add woodside nformation into Jackson Heights.
Thanks a lot.
All the best,

--RodriguezLuis7631 (talk) 16:40, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Does your professor have a Wikivoyage account? It would be good for us to have a dialogue with him or her. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:51, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting typosEdit

In Wikivoyage:Correct typos in one click one should remove corrected typos, but it is better to do so with the project script, this way fixing/removing is done in a single click and the version history has the needed info to filter the typo on next scan. Thanks, Uziel302 (talk) 09:48, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

I'll have a look at the instructions you referenced. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:55, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

External link in article, namely to a videoEdit

Hey, Ikan. There's a YouTube channel called Wendover Productions that has—in my opinion—an amazing video about Barrow, Alaska (now Utqiaġvik) called "Why the Northernmost Town in America Exists". I'm not sure if you've watched it, and it doesn't function as a standalone travel guide, but I believe it imparts excellent information that's pertinent to prospective travelers. Would it be appropriate for me to create an external links section and put a link to the video there? TheTechnician27 (talk) 02:22, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Wikivoyage policy doesn't allow any external links section, nor are video links allowed. There might be a way to mention the title of the video somewhere, though, in the same manner that some articles mention books in "Understand" for people who want more background on a place. Broach that topic at Talk:Utqiagvik. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:24, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
I know the video TheTechnician27 is talking about, and I can vouch that there's a lot of good information in it that could be incorporated into the article (directly, not as a link). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:03, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
If so, either by summary/paraphrase or by mentioning that [Name of Video] states that x and y. Either way, credit should be given in (an) edit summary(-ies). Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:24, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

China and ethnic minoritiesEdit

Hey there, I just thought it's better I carry on the discussion here rather than on the other person's talk page so (s)he's not flooded with alerts from messages not addressed to him/her. I am not here to advocate for any political position, but I just wish to give a bit more nuance to the topic than what you will get from Fox News, MSNBC or CNN, and while Xi Jinping is no saint, and the Chinese media is most certainly guilty of propagandising, it is also true that the Western media has its biases, and sometimes be a little unfair and even sensationalist in its coverage of China.

To cut a long story short, modern China is not concerned about people practising a religion or promoting their culture per se; that was true during the Cultural Revolution but not anymore. What they are really concerned about is if you are trying to subvert the government's authority, or to promote separatism. If you look carefully, for those ethnic minorities that have no active independence movements, the Chinese government is for the most part happy to let them promote their own cultures. I've in fact seen an ethnic Mongol boy perform a song in Mongolian on China's Got Talent (see this link). Even some of the Han Chinese have strong regional identities, and the Chinese government allows them to promote their own regional languages and cultures as long as they still identify as Chinese. You can find Cantonese channels if you go to Guangzhou, Teochew channels if you go to Chaozhou, Hokkien channels if you go to Xiamen and so on. It's mainly those ethnic minorities that are trying to push for independence whose cultures the Chinese government is actively trying to suppress. While it's a fair point to say that that's still oppressive and disproportionate, and that it's actually making the problem worse, as you can see, it's not as simple as the Chinese government being against diversity and wanting homogeneity for sake of it. It's a lot more complex than that.

Sorry for the rant, and I hope this doesn't come across as me trying to preach to you, but I just wished to provide a different perspective, which the privilege of being bilingual has allowed me to have. I think the bottomline is that China is not as dangerous or oppressive as the Western media often makes it out to be. Sure, they don't have many of the civil liberties that you guys have in America, and there are legitimate human rights concerns regarding political dissidents, but so long as you don't get involved in any criminal or political activity while you're there, the Chinese police are very unlikely to go after you. I've been to China several times, and not once have I felt that my personal safety was threatened. For that matter, I'll bet you that walking through a Chinese slum is safer than walking through an American slum, so go figure. The dog2 (talk) 05:22, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

I get your points, but remember that I am a Jew - a member of a people who have been brutalized for millennia for choosing to remain distinct and not do things like bow down to rulers as if they were god, take part in any communal non-Jewish religious activities (including the original ancient Greek Olympics) or tolerate attempts to prohibit the exercise of our own religion. Do you expect me to feel sanguine about hundreds of thousands of people being detained in w:Xinjiang re-education camps? "In August 2018, a United Nations human rights panel said that it had received many credible reports that 1 million ethnic Uyghurs in China have been held in 're-education camps'." You can read about how these detainees have been treated in the rest of the article, which is of course cited and documented like all other Wikipedia articles. I don't think that the idea that Uighurs, Kazakhs, Kirghiz and so forth are "rebellious" justifies this attempt to destroy their culture and prevent them from practicing Islam. Basically, what you're explaining is that the Chinese government inflicts collective punishment with a vengeance, but I already knew that. That's what all authoritarian regimes do. And I know a fair amount about Chinese history. Understanding the motivations for an action doesn't make it any better or more justified. I'm not an authoritarian ruler and don't need to judge the world by putting myself in their shoes. I can do so enough to understand how they think and why, but I'd rather put myself in the shoes of an ordinary person who is dragged to a detention camp because of who or what they are. I sympathize with them, not with the heavy hand of the state that makes life a living nightmare for them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:59, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
Now, having said all that, I think the points you made bear more on the safety of travelers in China. While a responsible travel guide doesn't serve to defame dissidents by taking the side of the government, neither does it exist to serve as an activist organization on behalf of dissidents. Instead, we should give basic information to travelers on what the situation is like, and especially how it might affect their safety and their experience of traveling in a particular place. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:02, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm not saying that the Chinese government is right to do what they're doing, nor does the fact that I'm critical of the U.S. government's imperialistic tendencies mean that I support the Chinese government's human rights abuses. I'm just trying to provide an extra level of nuance that Western media often doesn't give you (and to be fair, the Chinese media doesn't either). Let's put it this way: you can try to understand why someone is doing something, but still disagree with what they're doing. An example I can think of in America would be those people who voted for Obama twice, then voted for Trump. And yes, I most certainly agree that as a travel guide, we should not take sides in any of these conflicts, and we should simply provide the necessary information so travellers will have an idea on how these conflicts will affect their experience. If you've seen my edits in the Hong Kong article, I hope you've notice that I have done my best to be fair and avoid propogandising for either side. The dog2 (talk) 06:32, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I get your points, certainly. Just to add, though, certain facts, simply by being stated, speak against a side in a conflict, and those can be fair to state for the information of (prospective) travelers. I mean, WV:Be fair doesn't mean that we should say "the Rohingyas and the U.N. say the armed forces of Myanmar have committed genocidal actions in Rakhine State, but since the government of Myanmar denies it, it's as likely as not to be a lie". I don't see any contradiction between condemning imperialism and also condemning human rights violations, though - isn't that logical? I don't really want to be drawn into a long discussion on imperialism, but suffice it to say that I know about Zheng He's voyages and what followed them, so I'm very much aware that China lost an opportunity to rule the waves for hundreds of years and hasn't forgotten it. And as for the U.S., when has it not been an imperialist power? That's all I want to say. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:55, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
My point was that being critical of the U.S. government doesn't mean that I'm not critical of the Chinese government and vice versa. Not that there's a contradiction between condemning both imperialism and human rights abuses. The dog2 (talk) 07:09, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
But of course there's never a contradiction in criticizing abuses by different governments. That's consistent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:16, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
And just one last thing here. While I'm pretty sure you already knew this, I just wanted to point out that, being ethnically Chinese doesn't mean that I support everything the Chinese government does, in the same way that being Jewish doesn't mean that you support everything the Israeli government does. I know of some American Jews who are calling for the Israeli government to launch a genocide of the Palestinians, but I also know of Jews on the other end of the spectrum like Bernie Sanders who are standing up for Palestinian rights. So the same goes for ethnic Chinese too; while ideologues who blindly support the Chinese government certainly do exist, there are also many of us who are capable of having our own minds and being fair by, and just like you guys, we have a wide range of opinions of various issues. The dog2 (talk) 17:12, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
To me, that goes without saying. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:22, 2 November 2019 (UTC)


The problem I have with "increasingly" here is using it with a past tense.

"Since the 1950s, foreign cuisines have increasingly found their way into Germany and have mixed with local dishes."

Foreign cuisines have found their way -- this is something that has already happened, do how it this trend increasing?

If the sentence read

"Since the 1950s, foreign cuisines are increasingly finding their way into Germany and have mixed with local dishes."

it would make sense as the tend is ongoing.

So I'd either take "increasingly" out, or leave it in and change the verb tense. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 15:39, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

To me there is no problem with the past tense. Until now they have, the current or coming trend I know nothing about. With present tense the large timespan seems odd. But then, I am not a native speaker. Of course, such a phrase should be used sparingly. --LPfi (talk) 17:20, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
The edit in question is here. "Increasingly" + past tense is used twice in the article, and "increasingly" + present tense is used twice (or 3 times), so I think I was also looking at it from the perspective of repeated use of the same phrases being boring, and trying for livelier writing. The other instance of its use with a past tense is:
"However, increasingly restaurants have switched to 0.4 liter beers "
Have they switched, as the verb says, or is it ongoing as the adverb implies? Ground Zero (talk) 17:45, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
There are still restaurants with 0.5 liter beer on tap (bottles are virtually never 0.4 liters) and there are those that switched several decades ago as well as those that switched a few years ago. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:24, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
Ground Zero, I don't understand your objection. "Have found" is a present perfect tense, indicating an action that started in the past and is continuing. It is not a past tense. Past tense would be "found" - that's over and done with. "Are increasingly finding" shouldn't start in the 1950s; that doesn't feel like idiomatic English to me because of how far in the past the process started. (I could see "This month, I'm increasingly finding kale on the menu at trendy restaurants," but there would be nothing wrong with using "I have found" in that context, and I'd usually use that.) I feel like you should chalk this one up to different usage between different individuals who are native English speakers, but it's certainly not a grammatical issue. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:43, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
Of course you're right that "have found" is the present perfect tense. What was I thinking? I still think that "increasingly" is overused on this article, and repetition bid boring, but I will drop the issue. Sorry to have bothered you with this. Ground Zero (talk) 14:23, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
No bother! Perhaps there are other places where "increasingly" is superfluous in the article; I haven't checked. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Portugal hotel rating systemEdit

Hey, Ikan. To try to answer your question "Why are you capitalizing" rural "?" on the link https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Chaves&oldid=3881383 I wrote this short text: The European Consumer Centres Network, an institution of the European Union, published a document about the "classification of hotel establishments in the European Union (E.U.)". This document can be found at the following link: https://cec.consumidor.pt/gestao-ficheiros-externos/classification-of-hotel-establishment-within-the-eu-pdf.aspx By consulting this document, on page 5, you will see the question: "Classification systems – why are they so different?". In summary, I have retained the following: "Each of the countries of the world, because of cultural traditions, national and otherwise, are using specific rating systems, which prevent the application of a single classification system worldwide. The possible criteria for the classification of hospitality establishments, which the World Tourism Organization (WTO) takes into consideration, are: a) The level of comfort: ... b) The location of the territory: ... ...)" Based on these 2 criteria we can distinguish "hotels" from "rural hotels" in Portugal. Page 31 of this document briefly describes how the classification of hospitality establishments in Portugal works and sorts their Categories by: Hotels, hotel apartments, Inns, Touristic (holiday) villages, Touristic (holiday) apartments, resorts, holiday villas, rural tourism, camping and caravans. One example of the difference between hotels and rural hotels is described in this document: "In Portugal, all touristic business should offer premises, equipments and at least one accommodation unit to be used by customers with conditioned mobility. The exception applies to ... rural hotels." But for a tourist is it important to distinguish the difference between a hotel and a rural hotel? It is really very important. For example, this tourist will know that, for example, a 4-star rural hotel is theoretically inferior to a 4-star hotel. I am at your disposal for any further clarification.Sanjorgepinho (talk) 15:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

  • I hope IK won't mind if I reply in the manner I think he would: when writing on a Wikivoyage article, please follow Wikivoyage's capitalization policy, not Portugal's policy, not the EU's policy. Thanks for adding valuable content to our beloved online travel guide. Ibaman (talk) 15:56, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you Ibaman. I didn't understand the question. I thought you were asking why I was using the rural hotel category. I will then correct my publications. ThanksSanjorgepinho (talk) 16:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining, Ibaman. That's it exactly. Sanjorgepinho, if the category "rural hotel" means it isn't accessible to people with limited mobility, I think that should be explained in each case, as most readers are unlikely to know that. At the very least, it should be explained in Portugal#Sleep. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:10, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I will do that. It will take a while because Portugal#Sleep has a lot of wrong information to correct. For example, "residential or pension" ceased to exist in 2011.Sanjorgepinho (talk) 23:04, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks a lot! Parenthetically, "pension" in English means only money for retired people. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:40, 17 November 2019 (UTC)


I'd like your opinion on this edit, which restored what I believe to be excessive detail on this listing. Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 17:30, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

It looks like useful information to me, so I'd tend to leave it, except for the "Districts" header, which doesn't belong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:57, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
OK, Ground Zero, I'm looking at it on my computer now. I don't like how it looks. I think a range of prices in the "price" tab would be better, and a range of areas and number of people the rooms accommodate could be given in "content". Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:02, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. It's much better after your edit. Ground Zero (talk) 07:45, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
Sure thing. I'm glad I didn't restrict myself to looking at the diff on my phone, but saw what it actually looked like in the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:54, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Your revert on my edit in the North Carolina articleEdit

I'm very sure you are in the wrong here. I've lived in north carolina the past 8 years, and I've driven through south carolina (many times) and georgia a few times. Please look at a map closely yourself. There is no common border for NC and GA. Please revert your revert, or show me what evidence you are looking at. Marvin The Paranoid (talk) 01:25, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I was doing my best to be polite, but be a bit careful what you're sure of. You can look at any of numerous maps with state borders in these search results if you're not satisfied with the map in South (United States of America). The border between North Carolina and Georgia is clearly further southwest than you've driven from North Carolina. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:57, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
My bad. My very bad. I did look at the map before I had made my edit, but it didn't occur to me that the border existed on the western side. My apologies and thanks for teaching me something new. Marvin The Paranoid (talk) 02:24, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
No problem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:00, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

"Capital" of the Holy Roman EmpireEdit

Regarding your edit to North Rhine Westphalia - Aachen, or indeed any other city, was never capital of the Holy Roman Empire. I'd have to look up the edit history but my guess is this mistaken claim was introduced by someone removing "scare quotes" or "shortening" stuff or "straightening prose". I'll attempt a new blurb that if anything doesn't claim a blatant falsehood Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Not really wanting to stick my nose where I wasn't called, but hey, Charlemagne did indeed live and hold court at Aachen, just like Maximilian at Innsbruck or Maria Theresa at the Schönbrunn palace in Vienna or Philip II of Spain at Madrid and so on, therefore, there's nothing unusual or out of line about referring to these cities as "former Imperial capitals". That's my opinion, based on my interpretation of the WV:Tone and WV:Keep Wikivoyage fun policies. Ibaman (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
I looked it up, and while I don't know what would or wouldn't have made it the capital of the Holy Roman Empire, "from 936 to 1531, the place where 31 Holy Roman Emperors were crowned Kings of the Germans". Hobbitschuster, you're saying that empire had no capital? Isn't the capital wherever the seat of government is? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
Capital and seat of government are not necessarily the same place. South Africa for example has them in different places. During the HRE the emperors were crowned in different places (often crowned king north of the alps and crowned emperor in Rome) they were constantly on the move in part because authority in those times only reached as far as it could be enforced and local lords absent the emperor did their own thing. The empire had a number of Pfalzen which were places where the emperor stayed repeatedly. Apparently many were glad when the court was gone because the emperor and his court had an appetite that no Pfalz could sustainably satiate (another reason for the moving around). Then there's the question what "the government" even was. The electors met only when a new emperor was to be elected, the Reichstag met only when called until the 17th century when it was "perpetually" in Regensburg and once the Habsburgs took over the title of emperor, they were mostly in their residence although that wasn't always Vienna. So in short, royal residences may be capitals, especially when the current capital goes back to a royal residence (in Europe that's basically only Madrid, the French kings resided in Versailles from Louis XIV to the revolution, the English kings moved out of the City of London and even had parliament move out) but just because a monarch is somewhere doesn't make it the capital. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:53, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining all of that. And yet, wasn't Vienna thought of as the (or at least a) capital of the Austrian Empire? And St. Petersburg as capital of the Russian Empire, for example? Or did people not use that term? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:08, 18 November 2019 (UTC)


We have an extensive holiday list for Israel. Why no list for Ukraine? Cheers Ceever (talk) 21:51, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ceever: The holiday list is one of the Telstra vandal's editing obsessions, so I can understand the reversion. Though I will give him this: surely it's one of his more useful habits? Isn't a country article made better with a list of national holidays, as long as it's accurate and concise? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:02, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
What is the Telstra vandal and how do I identify em? Cheers Ceever (talk) 22:16, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Typically, names plus 2-3 numbers, and there are certain kinds of edits that are typical from him. We do occasionally get false positives. And because he's proven repeatedly in the past to be unreliable, I don't trust any edit he makes except for pure typo corrections. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:56, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
👍 Ceever (talk) 18:11, 27 November 2019 (UTC)


I recently improved Patan (Gujarat). Please go through it and do needful corrections. Suggestions are welcome. -Nizil Shah (talk) 05:10, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Nizil. I'll have a look when I can. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:34, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
I made a start. I'm mostly inserting articles (a, the) so far. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:04, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

My account is under attackEdit

Swept in from the pub

Someone set up a temporary password for my account. I wasn't given the option of denying approval for it. I don't know what is going to happen. Watch out for someone impersonating me and doing nefarious things, and block this account if you have to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:36, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

same here. Ground Zero (talk) 02:37, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
Oh really? Everyone, please read this:

Account details on Wikivoyage Inbox x Wikivoyage <wiki@wikimedia.org> Unsubscribe

8:53 PM (45 minutes ago)

to me Someone (probably you, from IP address requested a reset of your password for Wikivoyage (<https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Main_Page>). The following user account is associated with this email address:

Username: Ikan Kekek

Temporary password: 3ltrnulgeu

This temporary password will expire in 7 days. You should log in and choose a new password now. If someone else made this request, or if you have remembered your original password, and you no longer wish to change it, you may ignore this message and continue using your old password.

I didn't ignore it. I wouldn't have been able to log in if I had, but I don't know if they are keylogging me or what. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:39, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Don't panic. I assume the impersonator got the temporary password sent to your email address by entering your username at Special:PasswordReset. This wouldn't require a keylogger or any other sophisticated technique. I suppose if you had ignored the message, and the impersonator doesn't have access to your email account, then you would have been able to continue logging in with your old password as before.
Does Wikivoyage support two-factor authentication? If so, that would be another layer of protection. Make sure that both Wikivoyage and your email account use strong passwords that are different from each other and from any other websites you use.
@WhatamIdoing: does the WMF have any other recommendations about account security? —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:52, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
(By the way, @Ikan Kekek: you may have just received a notification that an IP address starting with "45" tried and failed to log into your account. If so, don't worry, that was me making sure that the temporary password you posted above isn't still active.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:57, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
Cool. I thought I had a very strong password, but that someone had cracked it. I had just gotten a third notice a few hours ago that there had been repeated failed attempts to log in as Ikan Kekek from another device. I looked at two-factor authentication but couldn't figure out how to make it work on a laptop. I am careful to use unique passwords, as you said. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:03, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Ikan Kekek, Ground Zero: I just checked the email account associated with my Wikimedia accounts (it's an old one that's no longer my main one) and I got an identically worded message a couple hours ago, citing the same IP address which traces back to Taiwan. Unlike you, Ikan, I've never been notified of any failed attempts to log in under my name. At the moment I'm not more than mildly concerned about the integrity of this account, mainly because of Granger's explanation above - it seems (correct me if I'm wrong, Granger) that there's no reason to believe the bad actor has access to either my Wikimedia password or my email password. But, needless to say, I'll be watching out for further developments on this front and acting accordingly with regards to security if the situation should change. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:36, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

A thousand thanks for your vigilance. Ground Zero (talk) 03:44, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
I think that w:en:Wikipedia:User account security might be the best general page. m:Community Tech/Password Reset Update, when it's finished, is probably your best hope. Admins are common targets. If you need help with two-factor authentication, then it's possible that the m:Stewards could help you out. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:44, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
If what WhatamIdoing says about "admins [being] common targets" refers specifically to spurious password reset attempts, I guess this whole series of incidents represents a mere nuisance, rather than a clear and present danger to the integrity of our user accounts. In a strange way, you could almost see it as a positive development: Wikivoyage is now a big enough deal for people to bother trying this kind of thing here. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:49, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

I got one of these messages, too. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:56, 14 December 2019 (UTC)


Actually, about 1100UTC+8, official sources claimed that Shantou was under lockdown, I just forgot to change Wuhan to Shantou. But anyways, the lockdown was found to be false alarm... Anyways, thanks for your help! 廣九直通車 (talk) 10:46, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

I understand. I'm glad it was a false alarm - thank goodness for small favors. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:49, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Ready to helpEdit

Yes, Ikan, I am ready for any discussion on Kerala and Karnataka. Now I live in Mysore. Regards, --Prof TPMS (talk) 06:59, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Happy New Year. Glad to hear from you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:23, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Sex tourism policyEdit

I'm beginning to think that we're not getting any closer to consensus on overhauling the policy. I am thinking of proposing to address the original issue by proposing to (1) specifically permit listings for saunas and other places where consenting adults have sex, and (2) prohibiting listings for saunas, bars and other establishments that allow prostitution in the premises or take payments from prostitutes or from their customers. This would address the specific issue, and let us to move the discussion onward, or come back to it later. It will not satisfy ChibbyWimbus or Pashley. Do you think there might be a consensus for this limited change? Thanks for your ongoing assistance in this discussion. Ground Zero (talk) 10:10, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

I think there is a consensus for a change like that, but I think it would be not that a bar or hotel allows prostitution but that they directly profit from it, such as by accepting bar fines or taking a cut of the payment to a pimp or prostitute. I don't think there would be a consensus to delist all hotels that rent rooms with a wink and a nod, because an objection was already made that in some cities, if hotels that tolerate prostitution can't be listed, no hotels can be listed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:42, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. That is helpful. I will bring forward a modified proposal. Ground Zero (talk) 13:14, 12 February 2020 (UTC)



I shouldn't be editing before morning coffee :) --Ypsilon (talk) 07:03, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Now I'm smiling, too. :-) Enjoy your day! Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 14 February 2020 (UTC)