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To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Project:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub.

Thanks for your edits to Singapore! I don't think there's any restaurant in Singapore where you can get a bill of S$1000 for two without heavily hitting the wine list though... (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:45, 9 February 2008 (EST)

Buffets, golf and notesEdit

Just three notes:

  1. Hotel buffets are already mentioned under "high tea", and the Shang isn't even particularly expensive β€” the Sunday champagne buffet at eg. Mezza9 is well over $100.
  2. Wikivoyage is a travel guide, so if there are golf courses that are not open to the public, then there's not much point in listing them
  3. And please don't say "Note that X" β€” just say X! (WT-en) Jpatokal 14:54, 11 February 2008 (EST)


Switzerland is a dream place to visit, with enchanting buildings and such natural places of intrest. if you do get the chance to visit (as you said on your "wish list") then be sure to visit a city called Lugano - Its amazing!! The swiss albs are also fantastic, and breathtaking all year round! I've been Lucky enough to visit Switzerland twice, so if you want any tips feel free to ask. (WT-en) Claire Renton, 08:02, 16 February 2008 (GMT)

Is it true that the Swiss portray racialist behaviour? I'm planning to take a trip there and websites have being making those statements, so...just wanted yo know where I'm going is safe in my terms.😁😁 BulbAtop (talk) 10:11, 14 December 2016 (UTC)


Just a friendly heads-up: Wikivoyage does not use <ref>. Texugo (talk) 15:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Universities in Seoul (and elsewhere)Edit

Hi, I have taken out your section on Seoul universities and moved to the talk page LINK

Please note that although contributions are appreciated, they should add something relevant to visitors. If we just add any information we want then the page will cease to be useful as a travel guide.

As per my suggestion, if you want to identify some Korean language courses in those universities, then we could look at adding it back.--Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:09, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Any comment here? Talk:Shanghai#Universities Pashley (talk) 04:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
The universities as described in Shanghai are now part of the article fabric (and of the sub articles). I am more comfortable with that. I maintain that Seoul still requires some work to be useful. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:58, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
I do think that at least the most famous universities should be listed. There is no need to go through a comprehensive listing of all the universities in Seoul, as that will make things too cluttered. However, there will be travellers who wish to stay in Seoul for an extended period for various reasons such as to experience modern Korean culture, and going there as an international student is one of the ways. So I think it is definitely useful to list the famous universities, so that potential international students have a rough idea on what universities they should consider. The dog2 (talk) 02:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
As suggested in the Seoul discussion, listing universities at this high level may be more appropriate for the country level Article in South Korea . I believe listing famous universities is useful as you say to understand the background of the country, and leave the Seoul page as a list of travel destinations for travelers. (i.e. I would research South Korea online, however would want to print off Seoul as a separate guide to carry with me. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Studying abroadEdit

I notice that you have started that article. Bravo! There have been red links to it for several years.

I have a file that I created for my students, Chinese preparing for study abroad, a few years back. I think it might be of some use in working on the article, and I do not want to do that work myself, so I'd like to give you the file. I was going to put it on a talk page, but the spam filter blocks it because it has dozens of links. Then I thought I might email it to you instead, but you do not seem to have enabled the "email this user" feature. I have, so you can reply by email if you like and I'll send it along. Or do you have another suggestion? Pashley (talk) 06:10, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I have just enabled the feature. Go ahead and send it to me by e-mail. I'll see what I can do. The dog2 (talk) 12:25, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Broken LinkEdit

I noticed you added an external hyperlink for Work in Seoul LINK which was broken. I have removed.

Can you please verify that hyperlinks are valid before adding them to articles? Also this action would suggest you have just copied and pasted from another source, and this is against WikiVoyage policy. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:28, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I am quite sure the link was valid at the time I added it, but perhaps they re-organised their web-site after that. I assure you that I wrote the paragaph on my own and did not copy and paste from another source. Any similarities are purely coincidental. The dog2 (talk) 05:38, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
OK, apologies. The link was broken quite soon after it was added, so I had assumed that it was already broken. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

A friendly reminderEdit

Thanks for your recent edits to Canada and Australia, but keep in mind that rather than being an encyclopedia, Wikivoyage is a tourist guide with information on visitor attractions, food and drink, events and festivals, and other things of interest to travellers. Brief summaries about the history of a particular destination are probably fine, but detailed information on the particularities of politics and government is better suited for Wikipedia than Wikivoyage. Please see Wikivoyage:Goals and non-goals and Wikivoyage:The traveller comes first for more information about what kind of information should and should not be added to Wikivoyage. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:46, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I would second AndreCarrotflower's request regarding many of your Asian edits. I appreciate that it is not always clear what belongs in a travel guide and what belongs in an encyclopedia, however please take note of this specific text in AndreCarrotflower's link:
Non-Goal Encyclopedia: "Wikivoyage aims to tell people how to travel all over the world, not document everything there is on the planet or how it ended up that way. If you find yourself needing references and footnotes on Wikivoyage, whatever you're writing should probably go to Wikipedia instead" Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:28, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

You've been putting in some great work, The dog2
(interesting name - whatever made you pick that? I suppose you're aware of the unfortunate connotations in Australian/British/Irish/Jamaican/New Zealand Englishes?),
but sometimes your edits add just a teensy bit too much detail from the traveller's perspective, don't you think?
I suspect you're a very experienced and knowledgeable Wikipedian but we do strive for a less weighty tone here...
Any way, this editor does need to be guided gently - and perhaps by prior discussion on article discussion pages - if we are not to risk discouraging her great efforts to add content on so many articles, eh? -- 01:55, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
The guidance provided by AndreCarrotflower can be categorized as gentle, and I would also hope that my own contribution is taken in the same way. Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:11, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I do not know of the connotations regarding the name but I chose such a name simply because I like dogs. But anyway, back to the point. Well, I was just trying to contribute some background information. Perhaps I may have been abit too detailed in some contributions, but I do think that a brief synopsis of a country's history and political system may of of interest to travellers who want to get to know a particular country better. The dog2 (talk) 03:23, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Care around financial informationEdit

Hi, I noticed that your have turned your attention to financial information. I would just like to add some caution since some of the UK information you added appeared to not be correct, so please be sure that you do have appropriate first hand local knowledge.

Additionally, you are reorganizing the sections and adding content at the same time. This makes it very hard to see what content you have added. Can you please reorganize and add new content in two separate edits? Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:42, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I think what you added might have been helpful. Unfortunately:
1) the UK country level is getting very bloated and verbose and we need to be careful not to use too encyclopaedic or dry a tone
2) technically speaking the only "legal tender" in Scotland is the pound coin - not even Bank of England notes are "legal tender" north of the border. However, "legal tender" is a somewhat sterile legal concept - we're more interested in the practical information you're trying to add. Don't get discouraged, though - it's very useful sometimes to get a "left field" perspective sometimes!
Andrew makes an interesting point about trying to incorporate organisational changes with copyediting type changes - I noticed you (mistakenly?) reverted my use of the <abbr> tag to explain what US English calls a bank note...
PS is there something shorter and nicer I can call you apart from "The dog2"? (That sounds very rude and unfriendly in Kiwi English...)
--118.93nzp (talk) 03:26, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
Just an opinion.. although I wouldn't call someone a dog without solicitation, I'd have no issue in calling them such if that was what they wanted. I guess it is cultural since (for example) Arabs would be offended, yet many Americans would in fact like to be called 'Dawg'Β :) Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:36, 27 November 2013 (UTC)



Citation for university rankings?Edit

Hi, I notice you are adding a lot of information about University rankings, such as this for Japan:

Japan's most prestigious university is the University of Tokyo, which together with the University of Hong Kong is considered to be one of the two top ranked universities in Asia.

My question is simply: How do you determine the top ranked universities on both a local and global scale? There is nothing in your edits to indicate this. Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:35, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

We don't generally require citations, unless someone actively disputes the veracity of the information being added, when the source(s) are probably best put on the discussion page of the article in question in case somebody else raises a similar objection at a later date.
This editor does live in the region concerned and, because you're right about all the Uni additions, I assume she has done her research.
I hope she has also understood by now that our emphasis is very much on what is useful to travellers rather than those visitors contemplating anything other than a short course... --118.93nzp (talk) 06:03, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Although citations are in general not required, some of the claims (such as the one above) are actually a bit hard for me to understand. I also live in this region (for the record)
I admit you are right in that these discussions are best left on the discussion page of the article itself, it is just that TheDog2 seldom uses that forum on any article that they are active on. Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:12, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure she'll be able to come up with some sources - she's probably away checking as we speak.
The other thing we need to put into the equation is that "prestige" varies between locales. Although in your Japan example it is probably quite clear that we are looking at things from a Japanese perspective, in other less clear contexts what is the "most prestigious" will probably vary considerably (eg between a Singaporean and a Hong Konger) - probably another good reason for hesitating before adding this kind of marginal information to too many country level articles... --118.93nzp (talk) 06:31, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
I use a variety of sources, since every ranking agency uses different criteria, but the ones I do look at include Times Higer Education Rankings, US News and QS World University Rankings. I am fully aware that the rankings do change from year to year, and somewhat differ between the agencies, but throughout the past few years, I have noticed that the University of Tokyo and University of Hong Kong tend to top the list (if we only look at the Asian universities) over the years. In the past 2 years or so, the National University of Singapore is beginning to be added to the mix, so the big 2 of Asia are becoming the big 3, but I'm waiting to see if it can maintain that position for long. Another source which is harder to cite is from my interaction with students from those areas. For instance, if you go to Japan and ask any Japanese, their dream university will be the University of Tokyo. Hong Kong is a bit different, since the top students tend to prefer to be educated overseas in universities such as Oxford and Cambridge, but among local universities, most locals will choose the University of Hong Kong over the others.
I understand that Wikivoyage is aimed at travellers. But based on my understanding of the aims, it plans to cater to all types of travellers, and not just those making short trips for recreational purposes. I understand that it's impractical to list all the universities located in a particular country or city, but I think that it is useful to at least mention the famous ones. After all, by definition, international students are travellers as well, and such information will give potential international students a place to start. But if the Wikivoyage community decides that this guide should only cater to tourists and not other types of travellers, then I'll be happy to oblige and direct my edits accordingly.
And just so you know, I am a he, not a she. The dog2 (talk) 06:37, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your very prompt and complete reply! --118.93nzp (talk) 06:49, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks also for the clarification. In terms of travelers, we actually already had that discussion sometime ago in the South Korea article where we built a 'mini-consensus' around listing the most important universities, although not in too much detail. A traveler certainly isn't just someone on a short vacation, however we can go too far in addressing every single permutation of interest to everyone and thereby make the general article unreadable. Have you considered instead giving some momentum to the Wikivoyage:Education_Expedition which does actually seem well aligned with your goals? Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:34, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Actually, on second glance, the Education Expedition seems to be more about using WV to teach. How about going to Wikivoyage:Expeditions and proposing a Wikivoyage:University_ExpeditionΒ ? Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:37, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi, While I think that the studying abroad article is a highly valid topic for a WV article (its a major reason driving international travel after all), you're placing much too much emphasis on the elite universities. International students tend to end up across the university systems of the developed countries, for the simple reason that even middling universities in these countries are dramatically better than most of those at home (and, with the exception of the dodgy private collages in the US, there aren't actually that many bad institutions in the developed countries). Not all that many international students would qualify for elite institutions, and most aren't very interested in the kind of research-oriented environment they offer anyway: the general focus is to gain a vocationally orientated qualification and either return home or apply to work in the country they've been studying in. I'd suggest that a better focus for the article would be on the general features of national university systems and how accessible they are to international students. Regards, Nick-D (talk) 09:37, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I completely agree the focusing on prestigious universities is actually not serving the traveler well. Tokyo University will only be of interest to a very limited number of international students, and therefore its ranking is somewhat irrelevant. In the UK, Cambridge (for example) is of great interest to foreign students, although in reality many more international students head to all UK universities of all ranks, and the University of East London is therefore as relevant as Oxford.
On the other hand, I wouldn't want to see a comprehensive list of UK universities added to the UK article. I think Study in the United Kingdom, Study in the Australia and Study in the United States would be good separate feature articles for each country. Andrewssi2 (talk) 13:08, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I guess where I grew up in Singapore, everyone there wants to get into the prestigious ones, so that's why I have a tendency to focus on those. I remember back in my high school days, pretty much all of my classmates dreamt of getting in to Harvard, MIT, Oxford and Cambridge. Of course, only the top student actually got in to one of those, but with the exception of me, pretty much everyone who went overseas ended up in a prestigious place. That being said, I understand your concern, so feel free to make any edits that you see to be fit. This is a wiki after all. I think that knowing which universities are prestigious is useful, but yes, what you said about explaining each country's national university system is also useful, since not all international students get into the prestigious universities. Unfortunately, it is not practical to list every single university in the article, but perhaps what Andrewssi2 suggested can be done. The dog2 (talk) 18:18, 10 December 2013 (UTC)


You've been making interesting edits for many years now and seem to be very diplomatic.

Would the admin tools help you in making this a better travel guide?

Do you fight vandalism sometimes? --118.93nzp (talk) 07:47, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I am not really interested in becoming an admin. I just love travelling, and I just like to share my knowledge about a place. Being an admin is a lot of responsibility, and I am not prepared for that at the moment. As for vandalism, I do try to revert it if I see it happening, but at this point, I have no intention of making it a full time job. Thanks for your suggestion though. The dog2 (talk) 21:25, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your quick reply and the useful edits that you continue to make! --118.93nzp (talk) 21:58, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Perth weatherEdit

Please note that I have reverted your edits about Perth weather - I realise that you have lived in Perth (it has been so hot recently it is ridiculous) the comments about snow i think are so far off the mark about Perth weather I am about to try to re-write. 3 recorded occurences of snow in the hills in 180 years of european presence sems to be a pointless discussion in a travel article. The classic interpretation of the weather of a mediteranean climate area is that snow never happens close to the coast, it requires altitude - hence what you say about the hills in your version is true of the stirling ranges, but not Perth hills (I have lived in the past for over 30 years in the perth hills btw).

Just incase you think i am trying you on - read http://www.feargod.net/wa-1956snow.php

I dont think the average traveller really needs to think about snow in perth. sats (talk) 14:49, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

I actually haven't lived in Perth, though I did live in Australia for 5 years, and I have been to Perth before. I actually lived in Adelaide, which is very similar to Perth climate wise, though a little colder in the winter, and with a little less rain. I do make mistakes sometimes so go ahead and correct whatever mistakes I have made. I was mainly trying to indicate that there is no snow in Perth, though later I came across some articles on the internet that there have been recorded instances of snow in the Perth hills. Over in Adelaide where I live, you do get some snow in the Adelaide hills every 10-20 years or so. But down in the CBD, you never get snow. The dog2 (talk) 04:00, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Pointless, I am not sure if you really understand the scope of voyage - really if you read anything about mediterranean climate - snow is not even in the framework or scope of such a weather pattern. Please do not add again, and try to get a better handle on what voyage is about. sats (talk) 07:59, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I beg to differ from what you said. A mediterranean climate merely means that it experiences dry summers and wet winters. While it is true that most areas with mediterranean climates do not get snow, this is not universal. Rome and Athens are considered to be mediterranean, but they do get snow from time to time. The dog2 (talk) 05:27, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
that is missing the point, exceptions to the rule are not necessarily what voyage is about, a good overall explanation for a planning traveller doesnt give voyage the opportunity to confuse them the 1% exception to the rule - the information is superflous statistically and not of relevance. sats (talk) 06:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Sorry to add to this, however I'd like to make it clear that from the traveler's perspective (which is what is important) that there is no snowfall in Adelaide as well. For someone who claims to have lived in Adelaide (as I have for over a year) I find it very difficult to understand why you would want to labor this point. Even the Wikipedia entry for Adelaide climate says that snowfall is extremely rare in the hills outside the city. Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Mount Lofty is technically considered to be part of the Adelaide metropolitan area, and Mount Lofty does get the occasional snowfall. I know that there is no snowfall in the Adelaide CBD or any of the low-lying suburbs. If you define Adelaide as only the CBD, then it's true that there is no snow in Adelaide. But if you include the entire metropolitan area, of which Mount Lofty is a part of, then the term "usually" is accurate. I do not wish to engage in edit war, and neither do I wish to challenge the authority of two admins, but I hope you can let me know how you define a city in Wikivoyage. Do you want to define a city as just the city centre, or do you want to define the city as that which includes the entire metropolitan area. Let me know what you decide, and I will make changes to my editing style accordingly. The dog2 (talk) 06:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Firstly, Admin status does not give anyone any authority over content greater than that of a regular user.
Anyway, I think it is needlessly pedantic to concern whether or not Mount Lofty is in a designated civic area. We really need to take this from the traveler's perspective, and the truth is that they will not boundaries well and will not encounter snow in Adelaide in Perth.
The current text reads: There is no snowfall in Adelaide, although very rarely there can be a small sprinkling on higher ground such as at the top of Mount Lofty and in some towns in the Adelaide Hills . Does this really not cover Mount Lofty from your perspective? Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

That's why I said it depends on how you wish to define "Adelaide". If you define "Adelaide" as just the CBD, then there is no problem with the statement. Adelaide's CBD never snows, while Mount Lofty occasionally gets a light dusting. If you define "Adelaide" as the entire metropolitan area though, then the wording makes it kind of self contradictory. The way it is phrased suggests that Adelaide is one place, and Mount Lofty is another. As far as I have observed, in Wikivoyage we tend to define a city as the entire metropolitan area. Perhaps I'll just re-word it slightly in a way that makes everyone happy. The dog2 (talk) 03:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Fifth Freedom RightsEdit

Hi, partly because of your content related to 'Fifth Freedom Rights', I noticed there was a lot of content in Low-cost_airlines not directly related to Low Cost Carriers.

As such I have created Air travel on a budget and moved content there. I hope you would like to also contribute there as well! Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:35, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Jewish businessesEdit

Hi, in reference to your recent edit on the United States, I thought I might let you know about the related discussion on that topic. Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:28, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

English language varietiesEdit

Hello, The dog2. I see you put deleted content back into this article without giving a reason for that. I'm not saying you are wrong to do so, but I think you should read Talk:English language varieties, especially Talk:English language varieties#Californian road parlance, and maybe give your reason there. User:ThunderingTyphoons! has been trying to eliminate redundancies and words that most every English-speaker will understand even if they don't use them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:18, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not aware that I put deleted content into the article. If some of the comments I added were previously deleted, please alert me to the fact and I will not put it back in if the consensus is that the comment is redundant. And yes, I just realised I made a mistake in one of the edits. I'll correct it. The dog2 (talk) 04:07, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
I don't think there's a clear consensus, but the entree edit was previously deleted as redundant, given the relevant entry in English language varieties#Same words, different meaning. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:09, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
OK, I'll delete it then. The dog2 (talk) 05:11, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
[edit conflict] Also, I think User:ThunderingTyphoons! might say "So what if Americans recognize 'fish & chips'? The point of this article is to clear up possible confusion, not to point out instances of common understanding." Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, that's exactly what I would say. I'm going to delete it, along with two other instances of the same kind of note (for "main course" and "surname"). If you object raise it on the talk page. Thanks! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:10, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
Oh, and Autumn. Cheers, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:14, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Repeated informationEdit

Hi, sorry to undo your [recent edit] on Australia, but you basically added information that already existed further down in the section.

This happened yesterday as well on your edit to United Kingdom where you added information about the Cornish language when it was already covered by another sentence further down in the same section.

It is fine to rewrite a section to improve it, but if you are inserting facts then it would be great if you could at least read the whole section first to ensure that you are not repeating. Thanks. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:33, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

In the case of the UK article, it was my mistake for not reading the section carefully so I apologise for that. But I'm pretty sure that what I added to the Australia article was not already covered, so please let me know if there was something I missed. It does say that the governor-general is the queen's representative, but that's only as far as the national government is concerned. Nowhere does it mention that the queen is represented in each individual state government by a governor. And similarly, there's nowhere it explicitly says that the Prime Minister is the head of government, at least as far as I can see. The dog2 (talk) 02:16, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

CEO or higherEdit

How are you, Dog? I don't understand this edit (nor, to be fair, the previous version of that text). What's a higher position in a corporation than CEO? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:32, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I was trying to clarify that it meant ministerial positions in the government or large company CEO. Technically the chairman of the board of directors could be ranked higher than the CEO depending of the individual company structure, but I'm happy to have it just be CEO. In essence, I'm trying to reflect the fact than even having served as CFO is not considered to be a high enough position to qualify for the presidency. The dog2 (talk) 17:52, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining. I think "CEO or Chairman of the Board" would be clearer, because I think people normally think of the CEO as the highest position in a company. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:01, 6 November 2015 (UTC)


Is perhaps not as great or significant, amd perhaps a better way is a more humbler line on its place and role in the world..Β ?? JarrahTree (talk) 00:42, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I have no problems with that. I was just intending to point out that Australia punches well above its weight for a country of its population in terms of international influence, and I'd be happy with anything that gets the point across. The dog2 (talk) 05:52, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Staging oratoriosEdit

What's your evidence that oratorios were not staged during the 17th and 18th centuries? My understanding is that it's quite unclear how often oratorios were staged, and that operas also were sometimes done in concert performances. Do you have any sources to cite in proving what Baroque composers "intended"?

Interesting data point for you:

Staged Oratorio - Italy 1 Jan 1750

The staged oratorio appeared. This resulted in the primary differences between opera and oratorio being the number of parts and the sacred or secular subject matter.

Staged oratorios were most frequently seen in Naples, Italy


Another data point:

Stage action had been abandoned in the oratorios of Italy by the late 18th century. [My remark: If that's the case, staged oratorios must have taken place in Italy until the early-to-mid 18th century.]


Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:22, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I admit that Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source, but I understand that Handel's oratorios were not actually staged [1]. Vivaldi's Juditha Triumphans is very operatic in structure, but it premiered in the Pieta, the church which Vivaldi worked at [2], and was performed by the women at the pieta behind iron grills to conceal their faces, so it could not have been staged. I'll see if I can find actual peer reviewed journal articles to support the internet readings I've done, and I'll apologise if I made a mistake of using unreliable sources for my information. The dog2 (talk) 08:34, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
I'll take your point that those particular oratorios were not staged. I just think we should be careful about making absolute statements about the genre. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:41, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
Another data point, cited in italianacademy.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/papers/HuubvanderLinden.pdf:
When Taruskin does refer to Italian oratorio, he reiterates the well-trodden (and on more than one count untenable) clichΓ© that β€œthe traditional Italian oratorio was simply an opera seria on a biblical subject, by the early eighteenth century often performed with action, although this was not always allowed”. (p. 3)
The PDF I cite argues that it isn't "simply" that, but doesn't contradict that Italian oratorios were often performed with action on stage in the 18th century.
Of course, you can find a lot of claims that oratorios were not staged, but they are from textbooks or quotes from textbooks. I'd definitely go with Taruskin on this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:08, 15 December 2015 (UTC)


Hi. I apologize for reverting your edit to English language varieties without comment - I pressed "Enter" by mistake. But what I would have written in my edit summary is that I believe "trousers" is pretty widely understood in the U.S., too, and that it's not important to indicate what is understood, only what isn't understood. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Stay safe/RacismEdit

Hello, Dog. I'd welcome your participation at Talk:United States of America#Stay safe/Racism.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:00, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Revert on Driving in the United StatesEdit

To go into more detail on this: Cops I know (and one I know who wrote a book about this general subject) say that "sorry" sounds like someone trying to get out of the ticket. Basically, save it for the judge, for whom it will really matter. OTOH, thanking the officer for the ticket recognizes that he is, after all, doing a job and is not the one who made the rules you didn't really intend to break. And it may be something the cop mentions to the judge, should the judge ask him for any details about the stop (this happens more than you might think, apparently). And you want every break you can get. Daniel Case (talk) 06:17, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Curb (noun)Edit

Re: This edit. I can't remember "curb" as a noun ever being used in the sense of "a restraint". Where have you come across this usage? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:55, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

I guess "restraint" isn't the synonym for it, but I have seen "curb" being used as a noun before. For instance, in the financial news, you often see the term "curbs on public spending". The dog2 (talk) 14:27, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
OK, sure, and I guess I've seen that, too, but it certainly isn't a very common noun. I think that would be a synonym of "restraint". Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:23, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Christmas MarketsEdit

Hi, not sure about this page become a list of locations. I have started a conversation on the talk page there. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:28, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

What causes offense in the U.S.Edit

Hi, and thanks as always for contributing diligently from your point of view. Before you make more edits to fine tune that section on offending based on food questions, though, you might want to look at the thread I started at Talk:United States of America#Associating people with their ethnicity's traditional foods. In short, I seriously doubt this is nearly as offensive as you think it is; I think it's highly context-dependent and is by no means the same across different ethnic groups.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:54, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Talk:United States of AmericaEdit

I saw your last comment on this thread. I hope that I have not misrepresented you or undertaken character assassination. If I have, please let me know which of my statements have made you feel that way, as that was not my intent. I try to maintain a civil tone at all times on WV, but I don't always succeed, and would like to make amends if I have crossed a line. Ground Zero (talk) 11:40, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

I guess the tone of the debate can sometimes make it seem that I am being accused of added useless information just for the sake of adding it, and I apologise is I misread your intentions. I do have my opinions on stuff, but I'm also open to changing my opinions if other people can give me a logical reason to do so. I don't think it's entirely unjustified for me to say that there are things about the US that a foreigner would notice but an American wouldn't and this is in no way suggesting that I know more about the US than Americans themselves. I'm just saying that as a result of the "culture shock" I experienced when moving to the US, I have the perspective of being able to notice that some things that are commonsense to Americans, but not so obvious to a foreigner. I hope this also clarifies some things. The dog2 (talk) 18:32, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Teaching EnglishEdit

I took most of the material on tests there & moved it to Studying_abroad#Admission_tests. I don't think it really belonged in the Teaching E article, but Studying abroad did not exist a few years back when it was added. Pashley (talk) 20:38, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

No problems with me. I agree that these tests are more appropriate in the Studying abroad article. The dog2 (talk) 23:08, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Australian 'Talk' Vocabulary in Australian EnglishEdit

Vocabulary choices in Australian English do vary from both UK and US English, at times favouring one over the other, but also borrowing from non UK or US dialects, while retaining a lot that's unique Which is it more similar to? It depends purely on the context, but a visiter from either country will need to adjust to be fully understood, even if its simply tuning into the sometimes subtle, but sometimes significant difference in meaning for specific words.

I've also lived in Australia before. Sure, Australian English does follow American English in some instances, and also has its own unique slang, but as far as commonly used words are concern, I'd say it's more similar to British than American English. For instance, a "rubber" in Australia would be understood to mean an eraser as in the UK, while Americans will understand it to mean a condom. Even for say, motor vehicle terms, Australians say "bonnet" instead of "hood", "petrol" instead of "gas" and "boot" instead of "trunk". I'll try to find a comprehensive study if one exists, but just from casual observation, I do find a higher incidence of British than American terms used in the street in Australia. The dog2 (talk) 16:14, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I've lived-in Australia most of my life, and am very familiar with both UK and US English. "Rubber" has both meanings in Australia, and is generally not used for an eraser. As for automotive issues, Australians drive "sedans and wagons" not "saloons and estate cars" (UK), have "intersections" rather than "junctions" (UK), have a "muffler" on their car and not an "exhaust box"(UK) and their car has a "fire wall" rather than a 'bulkhead" (UK). Words like "pants" and "trousers" follow the North American meaning rather than the UK, and Australians have "cuffs" rather than "turn-ups"(UK). For food, Australians use names such as "zucchini" and "egg plant', not the UK "courgette" and "aubergine", and "pudding" also follows US rather than UK meaning. Words that are common to both UK and US English that are not generally used in Australia include "cobbler" (both meanings), "pepper" rather than "capsicum" and "coolar" and "ice box" compared to the Australian "esky". Similarly "thongs" in UK and US English is different than the Australian meaning.

How about we move this to the talk page of the article and see what everyone says. I see your point there, which is why I put the word "generally", which means "usually but not always". Let's see what everyone says. The statement also mentions that Australian English is also known for its own colour and colloquialisms, so that would account for the fact that Australian English has some unique words that are not known anywhere else. The dog2 (talk) 21:32, 3 August 2017 (UTC)


Re: this edit summary, "popular" doesn't mean "lauded" or "highly rated". It just means popular. And the four airlines with the most passengers per year are all American. Powers (talk) 15:28, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps my understanding is mistaken, but I always thought "popular" means "well-liked". In the case of the US, the domestic air travel market is huge, and people fly US airlines because they don't have a choice - The US government will never allow the likes of Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific to operate US domestic flights, as they need to ensure that US airlines stay in business. The dog2 (talk) 18:05, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
No, except as far as popular things are usually so because they're well-liked. Taken literally, though, it just means a lot of people partake of it. Same root as "populous". Powers (talk) 02:20, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't believe US carriers can operate domestic China flights either. That requires a very flexible open skies agreement, so it isn't just the US being particularly protectionist. Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:58, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
That's true. I never said the US was particularly protectionist. I don't know of any country that allows foreign airlines to operate domestic routes within the country. Even Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific cannot operate domestic flights in mainland China. The dog2 (talk) 03:14, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, although Cathay Pacific is legally a foreign carrier with respect to flying in mainland China Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:16, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


I appreciate that you want to contribute to the article. If you're not able to leave it alone, how about spending some time trimming some stuff from it every time you want to add to it? I think many people would be more positive toward your edits if they didn't means net lengthening of the article. Ground Zero (talk) 20:31, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

I do try when I can. I will try to see how I can cut down on the immigration section, given that it does seem a little excessively long. The dog2 (talk) 20:35, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. I agree that section is too long, but it's important, so trimming it is tricky. Good job. Ground Zero (talk) 21:21, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Again, if you really feel you have to add something, please take out something less important. Many of us worked hard to cut this article down to a reasonable size, and don't take kindly to you coming back to pile more stuff in. Ground Zero (talk) 20:47, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

And Japan, too. This article is still the longest country article of them all. Piling in more stuff while I'm trying to wrestle the article down is not appreciated. Ground Zero (talk) 20:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Leftist "extremism" in the United StatesEdit

My friend, I just deleted your tendentious claim about extreme leftism in the U.S. in the Post-war United Statesβ€Ž article. You need to please stop conflating your experience with a tiny percentage of extremists with what actually happens in the United States outside of those pockets. Extreme leftism has hardly existed in the U.S. for decades at least. There is no strong Communist Party, and even the resurgence within the Democratic Party of people using the name "socialist" like Bernie Sanders tends to be represented by those who merely advocate tame social democratic policies of the type that are uncontroversial in most of Europe, Canada and beyond. On the other hand, whereas the number of Leninists, let alone Stalinists in the U.S. is vanishingly tiny, there is a resurgence of Nazis, Ku Klux Klanners and other out-and-proud racists. So the extremism is almost all on the right in the U.S., as has been the case for some time now, but this is also something not to post about in articlespace because this is a travel guide, not an editorial or a political discussion board. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:21, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

I must concur. Any actual American left of even remote consequence died with Eugene V Debs. Everything since has been identity politics or social democracy. Both Woodrow in certain regards but surely no leftist extremism. Hobbitschuster (talk) 06:40, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
I wasn't intending for this to be a political commentary, but merely to reflect that political polarisation we can actually see, so I apologise if the phrasing wasn't perfect. But although I agree with you that right-wing extremism is a problem, I disagree with you that left-wing extremism isn't a problem. You have the SPLC labelling people and organisations as hate groups on the most tenuous grounds, and these days there's quite a fair bit of Antifa rioting whenever a conservative speaker (even a moderate one) speaks on a college campus. And the moment you suggest that the reason men perform better than women in some disciplines is anything other than misogyny and may have a biological aspect, you will be labelled a misogynist. From the scientific perspective, our brains are slightly different (the corpus callosum is thicker in women, for example), and our hormonal balance is different, which would almost certainly affect our brains in some way, so it comes as no surprise that men tend to perform better in some disciplines, and women tend to perform better in other disciplines. Of course, these are just trends and don't tell you anything about individuals, and the environment and culture probably plays some part too. But of course, the feminists refuse to accept the possibility that biology likely plays a role too, and despite all the scientific evidence we have that this is probably the case, having the audacity to suggest that could potentially lead to me being fired from my job for what they call misogyny. These are just a few of the examples I can think of, but what I can attest to is that these days, the terms "racist", "misogynist", "homophobic", "bigot", etc. are just being thrown around on even the flimsiest grounds, often to shut down legitimate debate because a black/Latino/female/homosexual/whatever person doesn't feel comfortable having his/her ideas challenged by someone from the "privileged class". If this kind of shutting down of debate using slander, fact denial, or selective belief in science only when it conforms with left-wing ideals isn't left-wing extremism, I don't know what is. The dog2 (talk) 07:17, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Once again, you're going on about doings in a particularly extreme university as if that gives you any insight into American politics in general. Please at long last stop. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:34, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
I believe the SPLC and Antifa aren't universities. And what do you have to say about the way the two BLM women hijacked one of Bernie Sanders’ election rallies and did not allow him to speak? The dog2 (talk) 07:58, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Intolerance is not the same as extremist views. There is nothing whatsoever extremist about "black lives matter", unless you think black lives don't matter. Besides, they did it not to drown him out forever but as a strategy to make a point, and the result was that Sanders met them and worked with them on their issue. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:03, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
And the very fact that your edits engender this kind of off-topic debate really ought to prove to you that this stuff is not anything you should be posting about in articlespace. It's for that reason that I am holding back from taking your bait on anti-fascism as an example of left-wing "extremism"... Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:06, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
(And yes, I know who antifa are, so please do not lecture me about them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:08, 2 February 2018 (UTC))
Hold it: You think the Southern Poverty Law Center is a left-wing extremist organization? Are you serious? You really ought not to call the most effective civil rights litigators extremists. I now think I understand where you lie on the political spectrum and why you seem to think all left-wingers are extremists. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:10, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
I recognize that the SPLC has a history of doing a lot of good work in the civil rights movement, but it's absurd some of the people they label as extremists. If you look at say, Maajid Nawaz, how on earth could he be an anti-Muslim extremist when he’s a Muslim himself. Yet, that's what the SPLC calls him. If you actually investigate his background, heβ€˜s fighting for gay rights and women's rights within Muslim communities, which I think is a noble cause. And let's be real here. Countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran have an appalling record when it comes to these issues. Maybe extremist isn't the right word, but the SPLC ought not to slander people like that.
And I did not call BLM an extremist organisation. But I most certainly disagree with some of the tactics used by some of the hotter heads within the movement, which I won't get into detail here. But to sum it off, I'll just say that violence and destroying other people's shops most certainly doesn't sit well with me. The dog2 (talk) 08:46, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
And let's be clear here. I don't consider every left winger to be an extremist. David Pakman and Ana Kasparian are examples of left wingers who I respect and don't consider to be extremists. The dog2 (talk) 08:59, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
You think it's impossible to hate a group you belong to? I'd have to look into Maajid Nawaz specifically to have an opinion about him, but the existence of self-haters is not the least bit questionable. But this is just way too much detail, and I don't think this site is the place for us to discuss things like the difference between tactics and ideology and whether some assholes or opportunists using demonstrations as a pretext for misbehavior reflect on the overall movement. But I really wish you would consider whether some talk show host on the left is really of much relevance to the actual power structure in the U.S. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:45, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜Of course there is a possibility that someone can be a self hater, but this guy actually once participated in a debate where he argued in favour of the notion that Islam is a religion of peace. It is perfectly fine to disagree with his opinions and some of his methods, but I think calling him an anti-Muslim extremist is pretty absurd.

Anyway, I'm happy to disagree with you on some of these things, and I will not force such things into the article if there is no consensus. But what I will say is that one opinion that disagree with the American left on, which may perhaps be extremist by my standards but not yours, is the idea that "all white people are racist, and black people cannot possibly be racist", which is something I've come across quite a bit on MTV, Huffington Post, Vox and so on. For me, it's simple; if you dislike someone because of their skin colour, you are a racist regardless of who you are or what race the other person is. The dog2 (talk) 18:07, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

"All [blank] people are [blank]" statements are almost always false, and this one is no exception. However, for someone with a lot of exposure to leftist thinking, you don't seem to have understood the difference in academic contexts between bigotry and racism. Of course in common parlance, the definition of racism is exactly the one you give, but the definition is much more precise in academic contexts, so if you want to understand that, you can do a little reading. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:06, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Embassy and consulateEdit

Agreed that these are not proper nouns per se, but isn't Ecuadorian Embassy a proper noun? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:09, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I thought that in this case, Ecuadorian in an adjective and embassy is a noun, which in this case is not a proper noun. I guess it can go either way since you would capitalise "Embassy" if you use the formal title "Embassy of the Republic of Ecuador". The dog2 (talk) 01:45, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
I would capitalize it, but I get your point that it's not the official name. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:03, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Why don't we take this to the talk page and see what everyone says. I can see both sides of this, and I'd be happy to go with whatever the consensus is. But I'll just point out that if you write something like "Chinese man", notice how you would capitalise "Chinese" but not "man". The dog2 (talk) 02:36, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Definitely, but that's not the name of a man, whereas "Ecuadorian Embassy" is arguably the name of a building. I don't care greatly about this and see your point of view, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:25, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

User:ShakespeareFan00/Government, politics and oppositionEdit

Following up on a suggestion made on Talk:History of justice, this was started in User Space, because my knowledge of political history outside the UK is somewhat limited.

As you commented in the talk page mentioned, your contribution much appreciated. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:21, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Postwar United States#Rise of the automobileEdit

I rephrased and expanded upon what you wrote, as you invited. Please let me know what you think. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:55, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

I think it looks great. I felt it was necessary to mention these discriminatory practices and their legacy in a fair and non-prejudiced way, especially since the result is so apparent in Chicago, where I'm currently based. Many thanks for your help on this. The dog2 (talk) 23:05, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


Hi, dog. I was probably in the wrong in asking you not to edit the USA guide, especially as I agreed with this edit and we may get a consensus behind it. You are a valued editor and always have the best of intentions.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:03, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

No worries. I have also been at fault for allowing some of these discussions to go off on a tangent. Unfortunately, in the case of the U.S., sensitivities are very much connected to very politically charged issues, and it's easy to stray from the main point of the discussion in the heat of our passions. The dog2 (talk) 15:07, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Dennis Prager's opinion on the American Civil WarEdit

For what it's worth, regarding this edit, D. Prager has a youtube channel with the ridiculous title of "University". They have a video on just that question and while Prager himself does not appear in that video, the video is surprisingly clear. Unless you have reason to suspect otherwise or evidence to the contrary, I think we can assume that D.P. (that sounded dirty) shares the views expressed in that video. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:40, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

To be fair, there are a few conservatives such as Ben Shapiro and Larry Elder who acknowledge the fact that the Civil War was about the South trying to keep slavery. But yes, that video is one of the reasons why I though we should mention the conservative position, as it appears to be fairly common among conservatives. Naturally, I do not engage in this kind of fact denial and I do not share their view, but I thought it was worth mentioning. The dog2 (talk) 23:29, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Have you watched the video? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:14, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
Not yet. I've only seen the title, but I have watched many of Dave Rubin's interviews with conservatives, and this is quite a common belief that I have heard. I'll watch it later but I’m pretty sure it's similar BS. The dog2 (talk) 00:51, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
You might be surprised... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:53, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
I guess I was wrong about him then. I thought it would just be another video of excuses for the Confederacy. The dog2 (talk) 03:34, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Cantonese phrasebookEdit

I cleaned it up a bit. Would have added more phrases if the article's pronunciations are written in Jyutping instead of Yale Romanization. OhanaUnitedTalk page 18:54, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

@OhanaUnited:Thanks for your work. The pronunciations are in Yale simply because that's what the editor who did most of the work on it chose. That particular editor is no longer active, and I don't think anyone will object if you change it all to Jyutping. But anyway, please just add the phases even if you don't know what the Romanization is. Romanizations can always be added later. The dog2 (talk) 20:57, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Your reverts on SingaporeEdit

Hi, I got your point but still differ in viewpoint. I still stand on my view but will not contests the reverts. --Cohaf (talk) 03:44, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

You're always welcome to start a discussion on the talk page. We work by consensus here, so it's not just about you and me. Whenever there's a dispute, we go to the talk page, try to get more people to join the discussion, and hopefully come to a consensus. The dog2 (talk) 03:57, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
replied on my talkpage, yes I know wiki work on consensus. Sadly, the content on Chinese version is woefully lacking for Singapore articles, both on wikivoyage as well as Wikipedia, so for these minor details, I will accept your views as you are clearly more experienced here and I simply do not hsve the time to start discussions--Cohaf (talk) 04:11, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Mainstream black music and musicians in the U.S.Edit

Hi. I'd like to discuss this edit with you. I appreciate your reasons for making the edit, and there's some truth to it, but it's historically quite problematic.

I assume you mean for ragtime and not black spirituals as caricatured by minstrel troupes to be the first mainstream black musical style in the U.S. If so, it burst onto the national scene with performances at the Chicago World's Fair in 1893, though it took a few more years for the first rag to be published, so turn of the 20th century.

However, how early was the first mainstream black musician? Not counting the fame of Scott Joplin, mainly as a composer, there was James Reese Europe and the Hellfighters in the teens as a worldwide superstar of big-band ragtime. Louis Armstrong was the foremost of several black New Orleans jazz artists who broke onto the national scene in the 20s. In the swing era, there were among others the Count Basie Orchestra, the Duke Ellington Orchestra, Fletcher Henderson, Lionel Hampton and Ella Fitzgerald. And starting in the 40s, there was the superstar, Nat King Cole. When rock 'n' roll/R&B became ascendant in the 50s, there were Chuck Berry, Little Richard and Fats Domino, among others, and certainly, Chuck Berry was world-famous very quickly.

In no sense was the 60s the first decade when black artists had popularity among white audiences. The change is more subtle than that, and it involves the segregation of the recording industry, with "race records" (after WWII, "rhythm and blues") being defined as "music performed by black musicians for black audiences", and the way that particular type of segregation started to break down in the 50s, with Chuck Berry foremost among those getting top-10 hits in both categories for the same music, weakened again in the 60s when Motown deliberately appealed to all audiences, and weakened further in the 70s and 80s with white artists crossing over to R&B at the same time that Michael Jackson became the biggest-selling pop superstar in history.

The problem for a travel article is that it might be difficult to summarize this briefly enough, while still having a modicum of accuracy.

I think I have a suggestion, though, which is to say that while black music had tremendous mass appeal throughout the postwar period, black artists often had trouble in their efforts to receive as much pay and recognition as white artists, frequently being left impoverished by exploitative recording companies and, especially in the 1950s, by white groups releasing covers based on their recordings and undercutting their profits, and that this inequity eased substantially in succeeding decades, ultimately paving the way for Michael Jackson to establish himself in the 1980s as the top-selling pop star of all time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:20, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

I know of Scott Joplin and ragtime, and I'm familiar with "The Entertainer", but I wasn't sure how mainstream he was or how popular he was among white audiences given how racist people were back then. But anyway, I'm happy with what you suggested. The role of African-American music in American pop culture is most certainly too significant to ignore, and we also need to address the historic injustices faced by black artistes. Your suggestion covers all that. The dog2 (talk) 23:51, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure people in the 1890s were much more racist than in the 1950s. Certainly people were more racist in the 1920s than in the 1870s. At least white people in the US. "Separate but equal" only became law in the 1890s and segregation in the federal government was introduced by Woodrow Wilson. At any rate, the history of African Americans between the two great sixties that are usually talked about is interesting for a couple of reasons. And it might be instructive which tactics to use and which to refrain from when fighting for justice.
at any rate, a trend of more recent vintage is Hispanic music crossing over into Anglo circles, most notably despacito. Now that specific song may be a fluke, but the enduring success of artists like Pitbull or Mark Anthony and genres likelike reguetΓ³n is notable if only something that's occurred over the last two decades or so... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:12, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Yes. Though that has powerful antecedents, too. There was substantial Latin influence on ragtime and jazz; Western swing, which has very strong Tejano influence, was very popular in the swing era; and then there was the mambo craze in the 50s; the bossa nova craze in the 60s (though that's Luso-American, a mixture of Brazilian samba and jazz); the Latin influence on disco. Also important to mention is the mainstream popularity of Tito Puente and Ritchie Valens' hit rock 'n' roll version of "La Bamba" in 1958. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:22, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
One comment about racism and the popularity of black music among white audiences: These coexisted for decades and probably well over a century, if you consider the minstrel craze that started, I think, around the 1820s. Consider the fact that Duke Ellington's orchestra was being broadcast nationally on the radio in the 1920s from the Cotton Club, where he could not have been a patron because it was segregated.
I think that the continuing popularity of black music and particularly of forms of the blues (which is really to a large extent what rock 'n' roll was in the 1950s and early 60s) among younger white Americans ultimately helped subvert segregation, sexual repression and the repression of women - both because of who performed it and because of the lyrics they sang - but it took a long time, has obviously remained quite incomplete, and it was neither a linear process nor close to a one-to-one correspondence. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:32, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
I also wouldn't mind adding parts about Hispanic influces in American pop culture. I agree that it has a huge influence, though if I'm not wrong, the acceptance of Latino artistes into the mainstream came later than the acceptance of black artistes. I'm just not as well aquainted with Latino music as I am with African-American music. But I certainly of know a large number of Latino artistes like Arianna Grande, Ricky Martin, Christina Aguilera and Selena Gomez. The one group of Americans that has not been accepted into mainstream American pop culture is Asian-Americans, to the point that most Asian-American artistes are only able to launch successful careers by moving to Asia. (eg. Wang Leehom and Utada Hikaru) The dog2 (talk) 01:00, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Actually, Ariana Grande is Italian-American, not Hispanic. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:56, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜Sorry, my mistake, but I think I got the point across. The influence of both African-American and Hispanic music on modern American pop culture cannot be overstated. And as a side note, I'm actually a fan of African pop music, and if you listen to some of that, you'll notice how much African music has influenced American pop culture, and even the pop culture of Latin America and the Caribbean. The dog2 (talk) 04:47, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

The influence has gone both ways, but Soul Makossa was definitely a big influence on disco. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:04, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:08, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
That looks good. The dog2 (talk) 12:52, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Tangentially, I just started a Rock and roll topic article. Ο’psilon (talk) 13:05, 13 October 2018 (UTC)


I won't revert this, as online sources I've been reading today lump in bossa nova as a Brazilian stream of Latin jazz. Bossa is not at all what I know to be Latin jazz, which is really Afro-Cuban jazz. I think the reason why I don't call Brazilians Latin, though, may have more to do with what "Latin" means in the U.S. than what it means elsewhere. I see that Brazil is included in w:Latin America, but in the U.S., many Brazilians consider themselves Luso-American and not Latinos, as Latinx tends to be synonymous with Hispanic here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:09, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

I don't think I referred to Brazilians as Latinos in the edit, but Brazil is still considered to be part of Latin America even if Brazilians are not referred to as Latinos. I definitely know of Lisa Ono and bossa nova, although I'm not sure whether she'll be regarded as a Latina even if Brazilians are considered to be Latinos, given that she's ethnically Japanese. I understand this is a complicated issue though. Will a Chinese-Cuban be considered Asian or Latino? And likewise, how would you refer to an American whose parents are white South Africans? It probably wouldn't be technically wrong to call that person African-American even if he/she wouldn't typically be regarded that way. The dog2 (talk) 04:20, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
I have relatives in Mexico and Argentina. I don't know them personally, but since our ancestors came from Europe around the same time, they're presumably as Latino as I am Anglo. And I have some experience with Cuban-Chinese people. There used to be a bunch of Chino-Latino Cuban-Chinese restaurants in New York. Now, only a few remain. I never directly asked, but I think that the owners, managers and waiters were both Chinese and Latino. Similarly, I knew a Chinese-Jamaican guy named Chan, and he was very Jamaican in identity. I think the biggest issue in identity is what we should call the millions of aboriginal people from countries that otherwise speak Spanish. In what way is a Quechua or a Mayan - especially one who doesn't speak much Spanish - either Latino or Hispanic? But that's not so much an issue in terms of jazz, although I did know one Tupi-Guarani musician from Brazil, Thiago de Mello. I'm sad to see that he died in 2013. He was my phys ed teacher in 8th grade, and he was a very nice man. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:35, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Travel topic templatesEdit

From the travel topic you recently created, it seems that you do not know that there is a standard template used for travel topics. Here is the code for it:

{{pagebanner|TT Banner.jpg}}

'''[Insert travel topic name here]''' is a travel topic about [insert short explanation here].

==[Insert heading name here]==

==[Insert heading name here]==


You can have as many headings as you like, and call them whatever you like, but it's best to start out with this template (in source mode) and then start working on the article, in visual mode or source mode, whichever you prefer.

If you have any questions, please ask them, I will be happy to answer.

Thanks for these recent travel topic articles you have started.

--Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:32, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Adjunct professorsEdit

Hi. We've discussed this before, but not only is it fairly common for students to call Adjunct Instructors "professor"; it's not even necessarily incorrect. When I used to teach at CUNY schools, my title was Adjunct Assistant Professor. So please, I think this is the second time you've incorrectly asserted that only full-time professors are called "professor" in the U.S. It's not true. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I can't remember if I made this edit previously, but what I was meaning to do was to account for the fact that TAs and community college faculty are instructors but not addressed as "professor". Sorry if it was unclear what I was trying to do. I wasn't disputing the fact that adjunct professors are also called "professor". The dog2 (talk) 03:36, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Uh, not at all true about community college faculty! There are both tenured and adjunct professors at community colleges! Just say that teaching assistants are not professors and not so-called, or some similar but briefer explanation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:46, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
OK, I guess I was misinformed then. I thought community college instructors were called "teachers", and my understanding is that even K-12 public school teachers in the US are tenured although they are not "professors". But point taken about university instructors. The dog2 (talk) 03:54, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
I can tell you as someone who used to teach at community colleges that it's quite incorrect that we were called "teachers". Of course, generically, professors are a kind of teacher, but that's beside the point. I'm curious who misinformed you about this. Also, community colleges can be part of a university, as I mentioned (CUNY has a bunch of community colleges along with 4-year and graduate ones) so the distinction you're trying to make in that regard is illusory. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:11, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
It wasn't by a specific person but by Google. When I typed "community college professor" in Google search, the first result that came out was "How to be a community college teacher", so I presumed that I had made a mistake. And I guess it was confusing for me since we don't have an equivalent of community college in Singapore. There are tertiary level institutions other than universities in Singapore, but you generally go to those in lieu of high school (in other words, you get in straight out of middle school), and you most certainly don't called the instructors there "professors". "Professors" only exist in universities (just like in the British system), and only those who have attained the rank, and not all instructors, are addressed as "Professor". The dog2 (talk) 04:22, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Blessed New YearEdit

Have a healthy and happy year ahead. Wishing you health and happiness.--Cohaf (talk) 04:34, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. You have a happy new year too, and all the best for the year ahead. η₯δ½ ζ­ε–œε‘θ΄’οΌŒεΏƒζƒ³δΊ‹ζˆγ€‚The dog2 (talk) 04:57, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Gong xi fa cai, Dog. All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:25, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Quebec cuisineEdit

Do you know anything about QC cuisine? I'm only asking because of your edits to French cuisine, and the fact that the Eat section on Quebec is a bit sparse, particularly on explaining the Gallic influence (poutine is possibly the least French food imaginable, yet that article claims French gastronomy has helped to shape the QuΓ©bΓ©cois diet). Have you anything interesting to add?

BTW, thanks for taking out two instances of a suspect claim about knowledge of the French / Italian languages being essential to properly appreciate the food - they were so similar in wording, they must have been written by the same author. Best wishes, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:08, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I have not been to France, but I have been to Quebec and I guess if you go to a restaurant in Quebec, many of the dishes would be French based but with a Canadian twist. One dish I remember I really liked was a duck confit with maple syrup. I can't think of anything else specific now, but I would say that the emphasis French Canadians place on their cuisine is very much due to their French heritage, as you don't get the same gastronomical adventure in the Anglophone parts of Canada.
And I will admit that I wrote the initial versions of those sentences, but they came off a little wrong, which is why I made further edits so there won't be any misunderstandings. What is true though is that French and Italian colleagues have told me that in general, if you want better food, go to the restaurants where the waiters don't speak English, as those are the ones that cater more to locals. If you go to a restaurant with English-speaking waiters, chances are it is a tourist trap. And while I haven't been to Italy either, I have been to Spain, and one of the best culinary experiences I had was at a restaurant with no English menu or English-speaking waiters, in which I had to fight my way through a Spanish phrasebook to communicate. The dog2 (talk) 21:27, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
I totally agree with this, too. Your best bet is to look for places that have no English-language menus and speak with the waitstaff in the local language. I think that's just about always best, though less important a lot of the time in countries like The Netherlands where English is so widely and well spoken. As someone who's been to both France and Quebec, I didn't get much of an impression of Quebecois cuisine being similar to French cuisine I know. The duck confit example is a good one, but my general impression of Quebecois cuisine (though I haven't spent a long time in Quebec) is that it's pretty stick-to-your-ribs, with a lot of meat and potatoes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:42, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Edits at Horse racingEdit

Dear @The dog2:, I see I deleted your edits accidentally, thus I apologised for that. Actually, your idea to split the ibfobxes is helpful so it easier on the readers. Again, sorry I undid your edits. Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 19:23, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

No worries. The dog2 (talk) 19:26, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Discussions about race, politics, bias, etc.Edit

Hi and thanks for contributing.

I have noticed lately (as have others) that you have been starting discussions on controversial issues, and generally editors are not too happy about these discussions and the course that they take. It would be helpful if you made clear that you will no longer start or take place in these kinds of discussions. If you see an issue with Wikivoyage, you can always email me or bring up the issue on some talk page that does not receive so much attention (as the issues of concern are usually minor on balance).

Unfortunately, if these kinds of discussions continue, things may fast head towards a topic ban, which I do not want to see. It would be easier to resolve things here than at the user bans page, which should not be used when possible.

I hope we can come to an agreement on this issue. Thanks.

--Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:50, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I was thinking of responding to this in the pub, but I'll do it here instead to avoid further inflaming things.
I don't think you are being fair in saying that I'm bringing up political discussions on Wikivoyage. This discussion I was intending to have was purely about what terminology to use due to concerns about potential ambiguity, and nothing to do with politics. In fact, I stopped responding to the thread on seeing AndreCarrotflower's response, since I found that to be a satisfactory enough answer. I never mentioned anything about people getting offended. And previously, someone else brought up the issue about the use of "Caucasian" to mean "white people", so I don't see how this was being different from that. I've taken the point made that perhaps I was being too nitpicky on semantics and some degree of ambiguity is OK as long as people pretty much know what we're referring to, and I will keep that in mind before I bring up any issues in the pub and talk pages, but I don't think it's fair for you to blame me when other people take the discussion in a political direction that I never intended for it to take. I can personally commit to not bringing up political issues unless they affect travellers, and I fully support WV being non-partisan, but whether or not other editors take discussions in a political direction is beyond my control. The dog2 (talk) 15:04, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
I simply think that it would be better to email me or other users over this, rather than taking the discussion to a high profile place. This is not a one-time thing, but a continued pattern of starting these kinds of discussions. All I need is a clear answer, one way or another. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:41, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
I am just going to say this. I will not bring up any political issues unless they have to do with things like traveller safety and things essential for travellers to know, and I will try to be less nitpicky when it comes to semantics, but I cannot accept culpability for what I see as an unfair accusation you are making against me. As I said, I never intended for that discussion to become political, and it was other people who steered it in the political direction it took. If anything, my final comment in that thread was actually an effort to steer the discussion away from politics and get it back to semantics. I accept the criticism that perhaps I was too caught up in trying to fix potential ambiguities and should probably not have brought that issue up given that the potential for confusion is low, but I don't appreciate you blaming me because other people made that discussion political, which is obviously beyond my control. The dog2 (talk) 17:07, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
Don't get me wrong here. I'm not trying to punish you. I hope to see the best possible contributions from you, and I hope that this discussion in no shape or form sows disunity or discord between us or the rest of Wikivoyage. Really, I'm acting on the behalf of those in the community who have raised concerns about all this. However, what you need to recognize is that some discussions, while not inherently political, will easily become political due to their nature β€” the "African descent" discussion somewhat falls under that category, but the "media bias" one does so greatly more. What I hope for is an agreement that we'll stay off the semantics, especially in the case of controversial issues. That is very simple and all I ask of you.
Thanks for your patience on this issue. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:23, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
I still don't think you or the community's accusations against me are fair but I will make a compromise offer in the interest of defusing tensions. I can offer to not bring up semantic discussions unless the potential for confusion is high. The dog2 (talk) 15:02, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
That's fine with me. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:58, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
  • If you don't mind my saying, I think your contributions have really improved lately. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:21, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank youEdit

Hello! Thank you for your copyedit and general fixes on my edits. Have a cup of coffee on me, to thank you for your hard work. --Wikiemirati (talk) 02:44, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

My pleasure. And thank you for expanding the UAE article. The dog2 (talk) 03:14, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Minnan phrasebookEdit

Do you have any comments, especially in the last two sections? Pashley (talk) 23:30, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Community Insights SurveyEdit

RMaung (WMF) 14:34, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Reminder: Community Insights SurveyEdit

RMaung (WMF) 19:13, 20 September 2019 (UTC)


I undid your edits because I don't think they were relevant to this project, and their content is historically controversial. I would have put this in an edit summary, but I had to rollback. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:03, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

I thought that it would be an interesting point that highlights just how strong the Swiss identity is, since it was able to survive even such stark political divisions. What I wrote was simply based on what I learnt in history class in school, but I am open to being educated on the topic if you know the situation better. The dog2 (talk) 20:07, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm not trying to educate you, I just don't think Nazis should ever be used as a passing interest to illustrate something which is nothing to do with Nazis. And I also don't think a reference to far right politics from 75 years ago is welcome in the middle of a travel guide to Switzerland.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:44, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Reminder: Community Insights SurveyEdit

RMaung (WMF) 17:04, 4 October 2019 (UTC)


I saw that you added this to the Cantonese phrasebook: "all the major Cantonese-speaking cities in mainland China are prosperous cities that are full of migrants from other parts of China who speak Mandarin but not Cantonese".

Are you sure? My experience is limited, but in Foshan I found that most people I asked were, if not from Foshan, at least from somewhere else in Guangdong, and I met one young person there from rural Guangdong whose Mandarin was really weak. And what about in northern Guangdong or Guangxi? I suppose it depends what you mean by "full" and "major", but I'm concerned the sentence may give the wrong impression by implying that Cantonese is less useful than it is. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 10:54, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

I see what you mean. I've only been to Shenzhen and Zhuhai, but I've seen forum replies and other stuff on the internet that said that the entire Pearl River Delta is full of migrants from all over China. My friend from Guangzhou told me that when he goes home, he would instinctively speak to the taxi driver in Cantonese, only to realise that the taxi driver is a migrant who doesn't understand Cantonese. As for Foshan, I read somewhere that it is an industrial city, meaning that it is home to many factories, and is home to migrants from all over China who have moved there to work in those factories, at least according to my understanding. The dog2 (talk) 17:01, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
I've been to all the central cities of the PRD. I agree with the assessment of Shenzhen and Zhuhai (though I did hear plenty of Cantonese in rural Zhuhai), and I think Dongguan (though I haven't been there much). I also heard lots of Mandarin in Guangzhou. Zhongshan didn't have as much of an industrial feel as the others, and in Foshan, like I said, most of the migrants I talked to were from elsewhere in Guangdong. To put it another wayβ€”in Foshan and Dongguan you can get by only speaking Cantonese. In Shenzhen you can't reallyβ€”you need to speak Mandarin to communicate.
I've adjusted the article a bit. The story about the taxi drivers reminds me of Barcelona, where someone told me that she uses Catalan in her everyday life, but always speaks Spanish with taxi drivers, since a lot of them don't speak Catalan. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 00:11, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
OK, that looks fair. I will agree with you that you hear more Cantonese in Zhuhai than Shenzhen. The taxi drivers I encountered when I was in Zhuhai spoke Cantonese, though this may have changed in the 10 years or so since I last went there. The dog2 (talk) 02:45, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Working in ChinaEdit

Thanks for the update to this article. I definitely agree that deportations have become much more common. At this point I think our articles should advise readers in no uncertain terms not to work illegally in China. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 06:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Agreed on that. I think we should re-write parts of the article to reflect that. That would be the responsible thing to do. The dog2 (talk) 06:06, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Indeed. I've been slowly rewriting parts of the article in this way over the past several months, but as your edit proves, I haven't caught everything. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 06:15, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

What time is it in San Jose?Edit

Is it 5:30PM, or 17:30? Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 22:24, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Actually, Costa Rica is in the same time zone as Chicago and New Orleans in the winter, so that would be UTC-6. The 12-hour clock is more common. The dog2 (talk) 22:30, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Just to double checkEdit

The account User:The dog0 isn't an alternative account set up by you, is it? I'm quite sure it isn't, though you'd be within your rights to have a second account as long as you declared it, but you probably know that, which is why I blocked the poor imitation. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:57, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

No, that isn't me. This is my only account. The dog2 (talk) 23:56, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
As I thought. Thank you for answering.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:13, 22 December 2019 (UTC)


I'd actually seen the Europe line before, but it's only when I saw the edit you made that I thought how suspect a 'fact' both of them were. So I looked into it, and the source for the claim which has been repeated by news media and rival travel guides throughout the last decade, was, as described, a survey of the opinions of TripAdvisor users conducted in 2009 and published in the Telegraph. I believe you're a scientist, so you don't need me to explain why that has pretty shaky validity or reliability, but I did just want to stress that if my edit summary seemed grumpy at you (and it looks grumpy when I see it now), that wasn't my intention.

If there is a better way of stressing the significance of pickpocketing than I have managed, then we can look at that. All the best.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:05, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

No worries about that. I didn't take it personally. I guess it was my mistake for not verifying the source independently. But in any case, do you think it will be fair to say that pickpocketing is "rampant" in Barcelona then? From what people have told me, it's a much more serious problem in Barcelona than in say, London or New York, or even Chinese cities like Beijing and Shanghai. The dog2 (talk) 18:39, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
Doesn't "rampant" make it sound like everyone who flashes any valuable will get robbed? Although it may be the case that there's more pickpocketing in Barcelona than the other cities you mentioned (can only compare to London myself), it is not the case that there's a pickpocket lurking on every corner, which is what "rampant" says to me.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:05, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
OK, I guess the term can be subjective then. If you come from a place like Tokyo, Taipei or Singapore, then pickpocketing in many European cities will seem rampant from your perspective. I've been to Barcelona, including La Rambla, and I did not get pickpocketed, so saying that there are pickpockets lurking around every corner is definitely an exaggeration.
Speaking of which, my brother went backpacking around Germany, Italy, Belgium and Switzerland, and he told me of failed attempts to pick his and his friends' pockets in Berlin, Rome and Brussels (apparently, a pickpocket tried to steal his friend's wallet in Berlin, but because the wallet was tied to his belt with a string, the attempt failed). He did also mention that as far as crime went,he felt safer in London than mainland European cities (except Switzerland of course, but it was so expensive that he had to keep his time there to a minimum, and sleep on benches in parks because even the backpackers' hostels were too expensive), but I'm not sure if that is accurate or just a perception. The dog2 (talk) 20:06, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
Indeed, it all depends on what base measures you're using. I certainly don't dispute that pickpocketing (in fact robbery in general) is more of an issue for tourists in Barcelona than in London, but we need hard stats to back up bolder statements than that. Your brother was very unlucky to be targeted by criminals three times in one trip. In my whole life in Europe, there have been two (thankfully failed) attempts to steal my stuff, once in London and once in Paris. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:41, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Min-nan in Chinese charactersEdit


Continuing the conversation you started at Travellers' pub.

Is Min-nan written anywhere in any Wikimedia wiki in the Chinese characters? English Wikipedia, Min-nan Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Wikidata any other place? Any pages, any templates, anything? If it is useful, then perhaps it's possible to add a variant in Chinese characters.

Examples on Min-nan in Chinese characters from other websites, books, etc., are useful, too.

The more examples you can give, the better. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:04, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

In Wikipedia's version of Babel, it is written in both Chinese characters and the Roman alphabet. See my user page on Wikipedia for an example. If you sing karaoke for Minnan (Taiwanese) pop, the lyrics are always in Chinese characters. (See [3]). And if you watch Xiamen TV, you'll see that they always write the Chinese characters when they teach Minnan on screen. See [4]. Is that enough? The only instance where I know Minnan is written in the Roman alphabet is in some Bibles, and very few Minnan speakers in Taiwan or China are Christian. By and large everyone writes in Chinese characters. For that matter, Chinese characters were the only way I knew Minnan was written until I first stumbled upon Wikipedia, so I'm not sure why Minnan Wikipedia is written in the Roman alphabet instead of Chinese characters. The dog2 (talk) 17:54, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll take it from here. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 10:57, 23 February 2020 (UTC)


This kind of dedication makes me proud to be part of this community.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:14, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

My pleasure. As you pointed out, I'm a scientist, so whether it's here or anywhere else, it's my duty to ensure that information concerning people's health is accurate, and that misinformation does not spread. The dog2 (talk) 00:46, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
Hey The dog2, I'm taking you up on this offer. The New York Times is reporting that a significant fraction of patients seem to experience anosmia, sometimes as their only symptom. It has been added to the Wikipedia articles on the pandemic and the disease. Do you think this is something we should mention in the article in any way? Maybe adding "lost sense of smell" to the list of symptoms? Or should we wait for a clearer indication from specialists and authorities? β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 17:08, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
I have a friend in Berlin who's lost her sense of smell and taste from this virus, and she was tested, so she knows she's positive for it. We'll have to wait to see whether she gets those senses back later. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:56, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
Apparently, this has not been published in a peer-reviewed journal yet, but it's certainly scientifically plausible, and given that it has been acknowledged by the Royal College of Surgeons, I'm inclined to believe it. I think we could probably mention it, and it might well be published in the near future once the peer review process is complete.
@Doc James: What's your view on this? The dog2 (talk) 19:18, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
People lose their sense of smell everytime they get a common cold. Not very specific. Travel Doc James (talk Β· contribs Β· email) 19:35, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

DeCode Genetics and Icelandic health authorityEdit

Regarding this offer of yours. Do you have access to the DeCode Genetics mapping of Icelandic gensequences? Perhaps a link to an online publication? TIA 20:59, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't have access to those. Sometimes, people may publish the analysis of the data without publishing the actual sequences. The dog2 (talk) 21:51, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
Thanks anyway. I stumbled over this article on the topic. 21:14, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Coordinates from Baidu and GoogleEdit

You may already know this, but since I saw your edit summary from a couple of hours ago I wanted to mention it – in general, coordinates from Baidu Maps and Google Maps for destinations in mainland China can't be used on Wikivoyage. Mainland China uses an obfuscated coordinate system distinct from the international standard WGS system used by Wikivoyage dynamic maps.

This means that coordinates for mainland China locations need to be gathered from sources like (a) a physical GPS device or cell phone bought outside mainland China, (b) OpenStreetMap, or (c) the international version of Google Earth (the satellite view on maps.google.com, not the map and not maps.google.cn). I usually use OpenStreetMap. For famous attractions you can try Wikipedia or Wikidata, although they occasionally have incorrect coordinates for the same reason. For more information see w:Restrictions on geographic data in China. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 23:18, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. What I have been doing is using Baidu Maps, then manually searching for the approximate location on GeoMap, which is of course a little tedious. I'll try some of your methods too. I'm aware of that problem you mentioned when it comes to mainland China, which can make it a little tricky. The dog2 (talk) 23:28, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
Okay, good to know you're away of the problem too. It just occurred to me that there's another solution, which is to convert the coordinates from mainland China's system to the international system. I've never tried that but I think it's possible. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 23:55, 8 April 2020 (UTC)


I agree this is important for Chinese-speaking travellers to know, but I'm not sure it fits in an English-language travel guide to China. Maybe it would be better to cover it in the Chinese phrasebook instead. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 22:40, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

I've already included it in the Chinese phrasebook. I see where you're coming from, but it is certainly conceivable that an English-speaking traveller will live in Taiwan for a some time to learn Mandarin, then travel on vacation to mainland China and get tripped up by this. I don't know how common such travellers are, but I don't think they're that rare either. The dog2 (talk) 22:51, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Fair enough, I agree that's a plausible scenario. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 23:55, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Accidental revertEdit

This edit of mine was purely accidental (I should have somehow hit the revert button while I was checking the recent changes) and I wasn't even aware of it until I recently checked my contribution history. Apologies for the inconvenience. Vidimian (talk) 13:33, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

No worries. The dog2 (talk) 13:37, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Faroe Islands and Greenland colonies?Edit

You wrote "The Faroe Islands and Greenland continue to be Danish colonies to this day."

What do you mean? I have never heard that characterisation. What is your definition of a colony? Should Γ…land (regarded to have the same status as the Faroes) be regarded a colony also?

--LPfi (talk) 10:34, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

@LPfi: I just think they should somehow be mentioned as a legacy of the former colonial empire, even if "colony" isn't the official term these days. How else will you suggest we write it? The dog2 (talk) 14:42, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
I don't know the history well enough. There was no indigenous population in the Faroes, the inhabitants were people from Scandinavia. As the kingdoms were not stable, I don't know whether the kingdoms to get power should be seen as the same as those from which the inhabitants had come. The situation in Greenland is different, and I think some people see the connection to be a remnant of colonialism, but "colony" is certainly not the right word for an autonomous territory (especially as it, in my understanding, has got right to control its natural resources themselves).
Did the Faroe Islands ever have any connection to colonialism? Greenland might have been seen as a colony back then, but I think that ended at latest with the autonomy process. Again, my knowledge of history is sorely lacking here.
Wikipedia says "With the 1953 Danish constitution, Greenland's colonial status ended as the island was incorporated into the Danish realm as an amt (county). Danish citizenship was extended to Greenlanders", but "Danish policies toward Greenland consisted of a strategy of cultural assimilation". Home rule was granted 1979.
--LPfi (talk) 17:39, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
@LPfi: The Faroe Islanders are Norsemen like the Danes, but have their own language which, to my knowledge, is not mutually intelligible with Danish, and even somewhat tricky for Icelandic speakers to understand. I'm not sure about the history, but the Faroe Islands have their own national football team, and have tried to send a team to the Olympics. Denmark is apparently fine with the Faroe Islands having their own Olympic team, but the IOC is not, and insist that the Faroe Islanders compete for Denmark. I'm no expert on this, but my impression is that Faroe Islanders have their own national identity and don't identify as Danish. The dog2 (talk) 17:51, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
They indeed have their own national identity, and therefore it is good they have autonomy. Faroese, like Islandic, has been spared from contamination by German and other continental languages and thus is close to Old Norse. The islands were not settled by different groups having their own languages, rather the language on the mainland changed as the centuries rolled by. It might be that there were some unjust things done in the past, but such things have happened on much greater scale nearly anywhere in Europe. Colonialism was a system of its own, not only about conquering foreign territory (and the Faroes were never conquered that I know), but above all relegating a native population to second class citizens (or no, they did not get citizenship) and abusing them for economic gain. –LPfi (talk) 18:17, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
@LPfi: OK. My addition was not intended to be a political statement, but merely to indicate that some vestige of the Danish colonial empire still exists in the form of the autonomous territories. We do that in articles about the British, Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch and French empires. So if the term "colony" has negative connotations, how about using the word "territory" instead? How about a statement along the lines of "Greenland and the Faroe Islands remain Danish territories, so in a sense, the Danish empire still exists.". I would also like to ensure that we are in no way suggesting that the current Danish government is oppressing the citizens of Greenland and the Faroe Islands.
I think that sentence is accurate (although I am not sure about the nuances of English "territory"), but I am afraid that putting it in a paragraph about colonies would imply the Faroe Islands were a colony, which is not true. I am not going to think more of this tonight, and perhaps have no time tomorrow. Feel free to make a try if you want to. – LPfi (talk) 19:10, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
And just one more thing; not all colonies were acquired through war and conquest. In Singapore's case, the British exploited a succession crisis in the royal family of Johor and managed to gain control without firing a single bullet. The dog2 (talk) 18:26, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
True, I think most of the the Swedish colonies were aquired through developments in Europe. Still, one king using a crises in the neighbouring kingdom to aquire the Faroes (which probably happened a few times) would not make them a colony. I think the main distinction here is that the Nordic fights happened among equals in a way, not somebody from the outside laying hand on Nordic land. – LPfi (talk) 19:10, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

[undent] Sweden did have colonies. I suggest you have a look here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:53, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes it did, but I doubt the dependencies in Europe – or Greenland at present – can be described as colonies. --LPfi (talk) 10:33, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
I don't know how Greenlanders view their land's relationship with Denmark; do you? I wouldn't make any assumptions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps I shouldn't. Still, I am not inclined to call Greenland a colony without quite strong evidence. --LPfi (talk) 16:17, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
We could accept the determination of the UN General Assembly, which voted to remove Greenland from the w:United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories and return to building a travel guide, or we could decide that we are better placed to make that call and spend a bunch of time and energy debating this question, which really doesn't matter to travellers. Ground Zero (talk) 17:00, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, this is too much nitpicking for travel guide prose. This info could maybe inserted in Age of Discovery, or even Vikings and the Old Norse, if it's the case. Ibaman (talk) 17:16, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
How long did it really take for you guys to make those posts? I'm not arguing; I'm just saying, I don't make assumptions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:55, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Edit to EuropeEdit

Thanks for the edit summary, but this seems to me to be a case where the name of the guide should be explicitly mentioned in the text, so as to avoid the repetition in the future of the question of who rated the restaurant #1 and how.


Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:50, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: OK, I've gone in and added in that information. The dog2 (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2020 (UTC)


Hi Let me know the reason why you reverted my edit?--స్డరలాసిక (talk) 03:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

@స్డరలాసిక: Sorry, I hit the revert button by mistake. I have already restored your edit. The dog2 (talk) 03:25, 27 May 2020 (UTC)


Hi there! I was a little puzzled by why you made Wikiemirati an Autopatroller at this time. Looking at his user contributions, he hasn't made any constructive edits since October, and his last edits were to blank his user page. My practice is to promote users to Autopatroller only when they are currently making constructive edits. Otherwise, I leave their status alone, but in this case, not only has it been months since he edited, but his last two edits were, if anything, questionable. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:11, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. There’s no need to unnecessarily upgrade users to autopatroller (for similar reasons we don’t make inactive editors administrators). There’s always a security risk involved when an account has autopatroller/admin rights so let’s try to be more careful about giving inactive users autopatroller rights in future. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:55, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
OK, I'll keep that in mind. Sorry about that. I'm new to this admin thing so I'm still learning. The dog2 (talk) 13:05, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
It's OK, I myself made a similar mistake when I was an administrator. There's no exact moment when autopatroller should be given to a user, but the general rule of thumb is that atopatrollers should have at least several months of editing experience without major controversy, and have made (not an exact number) a hundred or more edits during that time. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:15, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Fact checkingEdit

Look, we all make mistakes, but I get the feeling that you're just writing history and politics stuff from memory instead of checking sources. This sort of edit just shouldn't happen. Ground Zero (talk) 21:09, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Another case of not bothering to checkEdit

In this edit, you commented "If I'm not wrong, Tibetan is the only ethnic minority language in China that is related to Chinese." It took me seconds to check this out to find out that you are wrong. See this: Tibetan, Kam-Tai, Miao-Yao are all part of the Sino-Tibetan family (with Mandarin and Southern Chinese languages). The Sino-Tibetan family includes "19 official ethnicities".

I don't want to seem like I'm getting on your case, but if I don't, then it seems like you'll just add wrong stuff the pops into your head. Please check these facts before you add them. It's not up to other editors to check your work. Ground Zero (talk) 20:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Some help with an articleEdit

I noticed that my new Englewood (Chicago) article doesn't have the same stuff on it as other articles. The format seems a bit off. Can you help me out? I noticed you edited the Chicago article before I did, so you obviosly have a lot of experience in this field.


@JewBoyPritzker: Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with Englewood, and for obvious reasons, I don't go to the area, so I can't contribute much to the Englewood article. I have gone in an adjusted some of the breadcrumbs though. The dog2 (talk) 21:17, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
I have blocked this user and restored the redirect. Didn't the username jump out at you? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:25, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons!: It certainly seemed a little weird, but people can have weird usernames, and I didn't want to jump the gun. J.B. Pritzker is indeed Jewish, and while the username could come off as anti-Semitic, it didn't actually have any racial slurs in it, so I was a little hesitant to assume the worst. But if that guy is a known vandal, thanks for taking care of it. The dog2 (talk) 21:30, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
Not a known vandal that I'm aware of, but the username is anti-Semitic and "Jewboy" is a slur. However, caution is not a bad thing when deciding whether to block, especially if you're not sure. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:39, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜Should we revert his edits? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:37, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

@SelfieCity: If they are clear vandalism then yes. The dog2 (talk) 00:22, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Never mind, he has agreed to change his username. Therefore I have unblocked his account. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:44, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Where was that agreed? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 06:35, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
Quite frankly, I don't give a monkeys that this person suddenly decided to change their name. It doesn't show any regret or attrition to do that, and none was expressed either. The person's character was revealed the second that username was created. The user's contributions were all tinged with racism: Elmwood is a 90-something percent black neighbourhood, and this user wrote repeatedly of how unsafe and unpleasant it is. I have no interest in giving this person a second chance, no interest in seeing what further "contributions" they can offer, no interest in waiting for them to replace an offensive username with a political slogan username. Hell will freeze over before I welcome someone like that into this community again, so I am restoring the indefinite block.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:34, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
If you look at the deleted user page, you see that the intended new name indeed was chosen as a political slogan. I agree with TT. --LPfi (talk) 08:17, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
The only edit of his I had seen was the one pertaining to sending in the military, and I’m not aware of the user page content, but I’m not going to oppose consensus on this one. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 10:53, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
On closer inspection of his contributions, this guy is clearly a right-wing political troll and a bigot. Banning him was the right move. The dog2 (talk) 13:49, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
But I don't understand deleting his user talk page. This serves as a record of what the user has said and could be useful in the case of potential sockpuppetry. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:15, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
I posted the welcome message without inspecting his contributions, so I just wanted to rectify my mistake. If you think we should restore his talk page then go ahead. The dog2 (talk) 14:17, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
I don't think we need to restore it. The user is blocked, which gives a clue, and admins can look at the deleted pages. We don't have to provide net space for his thought just to show our decision was right. --LPfi (talk) 15:48, 24 July 2020 (UTC)


The listing I removed was for an event management company, mostly for weddings. It was just a spam-type advertisement, not a competitor. Even if the subject matter were relevant to the page (which it wasn't), it was listed in the wrong section.

@ OK, thanks for explaining. And please consider creating and account. It will be much easier for us to communicate with you that way. The dog2 (talk) 18:00, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Sorry I didn't explain earlier when I deleted the listing.

Deleted Page For VandalismEdit

Hello. I don't understand, what contribution did I make that constituted vandalism? Thanks. ~~Lazarus1255

@Lazarus1255: Was that IP editor you? As a general rule, we don't edit the user pages of other users, unless it's to remove touting or offensive language. When I saw somebody other than you editing your user page, I assumed it was vandalism because that is usually the case. I apologise if that IP editor was just you when you forgot to log in, but please remember to log in before you edit so we don't have any misunderstandings. The dog2 (talk) 22:34, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh, ha, I'm not sure. I had wondered what that note was on my user page. I am just a newbie. I should be the one to apologize in case I did inadvertently do it. Thanks for taking that action. I'll try to be sure to log in whenever I enter info from here on.

@Lazarus1255: No need to apologise. You didn't do anything wrong. But here's a few tips.
1) Next time you post on talk pages, please sign off by typing 4 tildes (~~~~).
2) Let's say there's vandalism on your user page or talk page, we will of course revert it and block the vandal. When that happens, you will get a note. It doesn't mean we are accusing you of vandalism.
Anyway, happy editing, and welcome on board. Many of our Africa articles have not been edited for a long time, and it's good to have someone working on them. The dog2 (talk) 23:02, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Lazarus1255 (talk) 00:09, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Question about a revertEdit

Hi The dog2, why did you revert this update to a hotel listing? β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 15:50, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

And several others, it looks like. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 15:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@Mx. Granger: The IP editor was only adding Radisson Blu, so it looked kind of suspicious, and I suspected it to be touting. If it was not, I'm happy to apologise and restore the IP editor's edits. The dog2 (talk) 16:12, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
But they are updating information about that hotel, including where it has changed from another chain to Radisson. We have to watch this editor's contributions for things like this, but let's not throw out useful updates with the bathwater. Ground Zero (talk) 16:28, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Right. We can remove the touty language while keeping the useful updates. I certainly don't think an IP address should be blocked (for six months!) for making constructive edits. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 16:33, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
And there's no reason to revert updates like the one I linked above. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 16:36, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
OK, sorry about that. I'm still learning the ropes here, so maybe I was too quick to judge the user. I will unblock the user. The dog2 (talk) 16:45, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks! β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 17:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


It occurs to me to wonder if you'd have comments or edits at Xiamen#History. Pashley (talk) 08:05, 22 August 2020 (UTC)


Don't you know edit warring's not allowed, even with yourself?Β :-) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:31, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: Yeah, that was because I accidentally hit the rollback button, so I was just reverting my mistake. The dog2 (talk) 15:27, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
I do that all the time, but usually to other people's edits.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Food prices in ZimbabweEdit

What are the prices like? Are they expensive from the perspective of a typical international traveller, a well-off local, or an average local? β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 17:51, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

I've never been there, so what wrote was just from what I have seen in the news. By the law of supply and demand, a food shortage will mean that food becomes more expensive. The dog2 (talk) 17:54, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Yes, more expensive than it would have been otherwise, all else being equal. (But have the prices in travel hubs increased enough that international travellers will feel the difference in their wallets? I don't know, and I take it you don't either.) I suggest we replace the paragraph with information about shortages summarized from the Canadian government's travel advice. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 18:08, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
It might also be worth mentioning shortages in the "Understand" section, maybe in Zimbabwe#Economy. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 18:15, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
I don't know the answer to that, but yes, I'm happy with using the Canadian government's travel advice in this case. As for the "Understand" section, I don't know how much detail we should go into, but my understanding is that it was caused by Mugabe confiscating land from the white farmers in the name of racial justice, and giving them to his cronies who didn't know how to farm. So because of that, Zimbabwe went from being a net food exporter to having a food shortage. The dog2 (talk) 18:18, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
I see. I've adjusted the article to summarize shortages based on the Canadian government's advice. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 18:27, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Six-month IP blockEdit

Hi The dog2. I see that you've blocked Special:Contributions/2604:6000:1113:c214:3114:a978:c895:890 for a whopping six months, but the only contributions I can see are what seem to be two fairly harmless test edits to Talk:HΓΊsavΓ­k. Am I missing something? β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 19:56, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

@Mx. Granger: I thought indefinite blocks were the standard for vandalism, and since we don't block IP address indefinitely, 6 months is the equivalent. I've actually been dealing with quite a bit of similar edits where things are inserted randomly into talk pages and sometimes, articlespace, especially in our board games articles. The dog2 (talk) 20:00, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Indefblocks / three or six months for IPs are the standard for block-evading vandals or vandals who post obscenities / threats or what have you, not for all vandals. I recommend you refresh on WV:How to handle unwanted edits, where the first block should be three days upwards, and subsequent blocks should escalate from there. Accordingly, I have reblocked the IP for three days. All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:09, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Six months is a very long block for an IP address, especially one that has only been active for two minutes (!). We talked about this at User talk:Ikan Kekek recently. The problem with long IP blocks is that IP addresses often change users, so it's easy for someone else to get caught up in the block, and if the IP user has only been active at that address briefly, there is little benefit to a long block.
To be honest I don't think those edits need a block at all. To me they don't look like real vandalism, but more likely a new user experimenting to see if they can really edit Wikivoyage. If you think they fit the pattern of a long-term abuser, that's different, but still not a reason for a six-month IP block. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 20:15, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
@Mx. Granger: OK. I've been dealing with the Rocky vandal targeting our board games articles, and the pattern looked suspicious to me. But if you think I've been too hasty to judge and it was not actual vandalism, go ahead and unblock the IP address. The dog2 (talk) 20:47, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll unblock for nowβ€”if we see more unconstructive edits from this IP address, then I think a block of a few days would be appropriate. And thanks for reverting the vandalism at the board game articles. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 21:19, 12 November 2020 (UTC)


I'm really confused. Why is everyone reverting that IP address and what vandalism did they do to warrant a block? Their contributions look sound to me.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:48, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I am also confused, for the same reason. Is there some place where we should have read about this? –LPfi (talk) 17:56, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
In this edit, he left a single empty bullet point, so it did seem a little suspicious to me. But I admit I didn't look through every single one of his edits. Unblock him if you feel I was too hasty. The dog2 (talk) 18:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Definitely too hasty.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Not only was there no reason to block the IP user at all (you have to check the contributions of someone you think needs to be blocked), I have serious questions about the conduct of User:Nieuwsgierige Gebruiker, who rolled back the IP's edits without comment and then when the IP left him/her a message, (s)he rolled back that as well.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:46, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Thedog2, No problem. I also act too hastily most of the time. By the way, the reason I left the empty space with the bullet point was not due to vandalism, but inexperience in editing. I would have cleaned it up later. In reality, I was just trying to update some information on Bhutan and then one contributor reverted the entire edit. Then, while asking for help, I was blocked. 18:48, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

@ I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding. The dog2 (talk) 19:12, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Knights and damesEdit

Hello (or should that be "Alright!"?)

Here, I wrote "Although this is interesting, the vast majority of visitors will not meet any knights or dames." but here you reinserted a (gratifyingly much shorter) version of the same info without comment. I still think most travellers won't be meeting any knights or dames, and the minority that do who may be foreign dignitaries or what have you, are just as likely to meet a senior clergyman, a lord, or a minor royal, yet we haven't put the forms of address for those in.

And as someone who has met one or two knights and dames, I don't recall them making a fuss about what we called them.

What say you? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:57, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: Oh sorry, I was skimming through things rather quickly and didn't notice your comment. But I thought in the UK, knighthoods and damehoods are commonly given to sportspeople and artistes for instance (eg. Elton John, Maggie Smith, Chris Hoy, Matthew Pinsent, etc.), so they are not as rare as say, earls or barons. Even in Singapore, I was taught how to address knights and dames in school (and I went to a government school, by the way).
Also on a unrelated note, do you think we should maybe expand the history section a little? Like maybe adding a bit of stuff about the Heptarchy and the Wars of the Roses, though I understand the concern that that might make it a little too England-centric. The dog2 (talk) 18:08, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
What you say about knight- and damehoods is true, but we're still only talking about a tiny number of people relative to the population. The people you list are all outstanding in their field; you don't just get a knighthood for being a celebrity (although MPs can and do get knighthoods for being useful to the government of the day, so they skew it a bit). And there are other, 'lesser' honours like CBEs and MBEs. The point kind of remains that you're not going to bump into Dame Maggie Smith in Tesco, just like you probably won't bump into Ben Affleck in Hollywood. If you're a guest in the UK attending some sort of ceremony you may well meet dames, knights, dukes, princesses etc., but that will be a negligible minority of overseas visitors. Perhaps I should have elaborated that I've never met one of these people outside of a formal setting like a memorial service, veterans' banquet or opening ceremony; the sort of thing not attended by your average tourist.
Isn't Singapore still rather influenced by the philosophy of Lee Kuan Yew, who despite being the driving force behind independence, was an LSE and Cambridge-educated anglophile with close ties to the British establishment? I think I remember you saying you were also taught formal British table manners at school; well sorry, but these things are no longer in our national curriculum, if they ever were! (They probably are still in the curriculum at the likes of Eton, because "their sort" need to know all that twaddle for their future lives as rulers...)
The idea of the history section, if I recall, was to deliberately have very limited pre-Union history, and for other stuff to go in the nation articles. I'd probably prefer to see English medieval history in the England article, but others might feel differently.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:18, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Just a tangent here, but Mr. Lee wasn't the driving force behind Singaporean independence; that was Malaysia, which threw Singapore out of the Federation kicking and screaming. What Lee Kuan Yew did is to make a really impressive lemonade out of the lemons he was dealt. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:43, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @ThunderingTyphoons!: I see. One more question about knights and dames then? While I take your point that an average tourist is unlikely to bump into one in the street, how likely are you to meet one if you're travelling to the UK for a business meeting or scientific conference? If you are likely to meet one in that scenario, I think there's a case for stating the mode of address.
As for Singapore, yes, it's still strongly influenced by the philosophy of Lee Kuan Yew, and his son is still the prime minister. Lee Hsien Loong was apparently the top student in mathematics at Cambridge. But anyway, table manners aren't part of the curriculum in the sense that, you do not have to sit for exams about them, but you are taught them in school, or at least in in the more prestigious ones (unlike in Western countries, the most prestigious schools in Singapore are all government schools, not private schools; the stereotype of private school students in Singapore is that they are not very smart but have rich parents). And we are not only taught traditional British table manners, but also traditional Chinese, Malay and Indian table manners, which is why I know that if you go to Malaysia or India, you should only eat with your right hand.
As for history, sure, I don't mind putting them the Norman invasion, Heptarchy and Wars of the Roses in the England article. If you know more details, maybe the Black Dinner and Glencoe Massacre can go into the Scotland article too. The dog2 (talk) 19:59, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons!: Speaking of which, the England article does not even have a history section, so perhaps you can write something, since you probably know English medieval history better than I do. The dog2 (talk) 22:39, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Interesting stuff about Singapore courtesy of you and Mr Fish. Forced, compulsory independence is not a concept I've come across before, at least not beyond Caesar recalling the legions. I was slightly mocking of the Eton curriculum, but there's no doubt that what they teach boys there beyond academics sets them up with skills to thrive at the top of British or wider Anglo culture, which is what the fees are for. Similarly, I imagine teaching seemingly random life skills in Singaporean state schools is more about imparting knowledge of the cultures that have made the country what it is, rather than just the one a kid happens to grow up in.
I might struggle to write an entire history of England in six or seven paragraphs (to adequately summarise such a complex topic is no mean feat), so while I'm not saying "no", it's not something I feel brave enough to tackle right now. The 'history' section on just York was a toil, and some of that was already written. That said, I would help out if someone else wanted to have a go...
Back to knights and dames, I suppose at a business meeting or scientific conference you're more likely to meet one, but since my experience of the former is very limited and of the latter non-existent, I wouldn't know for sure. As it's such a short sentence, it might as well stay putΒ :-) ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:59, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Russian churchEdit

You wrote that "The Russian church left in 2018". What did they leave? w:Eastern Orthodox Church says that the Russian Orthodox Church (Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia) is one of the "14 autocephalous Orthodox churches forming the main body of Orthodox Christianity". Aren't all those Eastern Orthodox Churches? There was a Schism between Moscow and Constantinople (perhaps in 2018), but did Moscow really leave all this community? –LPfi (talk) 22:09, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

@LPfi: I don't know the details, but I know there was a schism, and Moscow and Constantinople no longer attend each other's events. The dog2 (talk) 22:17, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I think it is temporary, and not worth mentioning in the context of the Great Schism. For the Orthodox, the severing of communion is probably a drastic thing, but for non-Orthodox travellers I suppose it is less important. The churches still resemble each other in liturgy, architecture etc. It might be important for those visiting Ukraine, but there being two churches, one of which is lead from Moscow, should be a big enough clue. –LPfi (talk) 23:36, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
It's been two years now, and it's pretty obvious that the schism was driven by geopolitics, so unless relations between Russia and the U.S. or Western Europe improve, I don't think communion will be restored. Of course, things may change, and there is now an almost unanimous consensus in the U.S. that China is the biggest threat to American interests, and anti-China sentiment is pretty much the only thing uniting all Americans in an otherwise deeply divided country, so it is certainly not inconceivable that the U.S. will make peace with Russia in order to focus on China (which is what U Chicago foreign policy expert John Mearsheimer recommends), and if that happens, then the schism will likely resolve. But as of now, because they are no longer in communion, Russians cannot attend services in a Greek church and vice-versa (at least that is my understanding). The dog2 (talk) 23:50, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
There is no such consensus. The Russians were recently discovered to have conducted the most extensive and intrusive hacking of national security and corporate entities in American history. Furthermore, I don't understand why you think a split that has to do with the Russian capture of Crimea and involvement in ethnic Russian rebellions in eastern Ukraine has anything to do with U.S. or Western European policy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:57, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: Go and check out the work of John Mearsheimer. He advocates philosophy called "offensive realism" for guiding America's foreign policy. But basically, he mentions that Russia invading Ukraine and Georgia is in response to America and Western Europe trying to expand NATO to include those two countries, which Russia absolutely cannot allow to happen because it is a threat to their national interests (since both countries border Russia). And he does say that China is the real threat, because they have 4 times the U.S. population, so if China reaches the same level of development as the U.S., China will be world number 1 by a long stretch, and that is something America absolutely cannot allow to happen, because that will be the end of American global hegemony, which the only thing preventing American citizens from becoming victims of foreign aggression. So he advocates that America should make peace with Russia, Iran, Venezuela and Cuba so that all these countries can join America in an alliance to contain China, so that American supremacy will be preserved.
Of course, if you also want to check out the works of other foreign policy scholars and their views on geopolitics, I'd be happy to recommend some more to you too. The dog2 (talk) 01:16, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
You're suggesting "making peace" with a scorpion bent on paralyzing the U.S. and destroying it - one that's already gone a long way toward doing so. And someone I never heard of doesn't constitute a "consensus". A consensus would have to include politicians. Anyway, if your claim is that the U.S. or Western Europe could somehow reverse Russian occupations in countries on their border through negotiations or something, and then that would resolve the schism, well... Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:00, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: First of all, I'm not suggesting that America should do that. As a foreigner and guest in this country, I don't think it's my place to interfere in American politics. I'm just stating a view put forth by John Mearsheimer, who is a very well-respected scholar in foreign policy circles, and whose work I'm somewhat familiar with. He's not the only person whose work I look into; I'm also familiar with the work of Kevin Rudd (former Australian prime minister) and Kishore Mahbubani (Singapore's former permanent representative to the UN, and at one point president of the UN security council), and they have differing views on geopolitics. I'm merely stating one view here, and that's not necessarily what I advocate (and Wikivoyage is certainly not the place to advocate my own political positions). But trust me, when China grows so strong that there are signs of it being able to dominate Asia in the same way the U.S. currently dominates the Americas, you'll see geopolitical shifts, and it is very likely you'll get an alliance between Russia and the U.S. to contain China purely out of political necessity. After all China has a long border with Russia, and as China gets stronger, its only natural that the Russians will feel increasingly threatened by them. Don't forget that the reason why Richard Nixon made peace with Mao Zedong was because he was hoping to use China to take down the Soviet Union after the Sino-Soviet split, and China in fact allied itself with the U.S. during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. And despite common perceptions, Russia and China are certainly not best friends, and what you see now is merely a marriage of convenience; there is a lot of historical baggage between Russia and China dating back to the "Century of Humiliation". The dog2 (talk) 02:25, 2 January 2021 (UTC)


My understanding is that biryani is a specifically Muslim dish, not a Hindu dish. w:Biryani seems to back that up, stating among other things that: "According to Pratibha Karan, who wrote the book Biryani, the biryani is of South Indian origin, derived from pilaf varieties brought to the Indian subcontinent by Arab traders." Do you know for a fact that some Indians aren't intolerant of non-vegetarians? I don't know that, so I wouldn't have made this change. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:16, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: Yes, it's a Muslim dish, but it doesn't mean the Hindus can't eat it. I don't know for a fact that some Indians aren't intolerant of vegetarians, but I don't think the number will be particularly large even if those people exist. Your view might be skewed by the fact that most Indians in the West are vegetarian, but that is not true of Indians in India or Southeast Asia. The reason why most Indians in the West are vegetarian is because only people from more affluent backgrounds get to immigrate to the West, so that leads to an overrepresentation of Brahmins among Indian immigrants to the West, and most Brahmins are required to be vegetarian. However, the Brahmin caste is very much a privileged minority in India, and people from the lower castes are usually not vegetarian. In Singapore, most of the Indians are descended from indentured labourers brought there by the British, and came form the lower castes, so you will find that most Indian Singaporeans are not vegetarian, even though they are mostly Hindus. The dog2 (talk) 06:24, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
My "view" isn't skewed; I just don't assume I know. Things have changed in India, with the growth of Hindu nationalism. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:30, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: Yes, but it's only certain sects of Hinduism that are required to be vegetarian, not all Hindus. At least from what I see in the news, the growth of fundamentalist Hinduism has led to Muslims being lynched for eating beef, but I've yet to hear of people being lynched just for not being a vegetarian. And as I said, it's a common misconception in the West that most Indians are vegetarians, and that is because most Indians in the West are vegetarian. Among Indians in India, Singapore and Malaysia, vegetarians are a minority, even among the Hindu community. The dog2 (talk) 06:39, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
You have an annoying habit of conflating me with whatever you think an average American is, even though you know I lived in Malaysia for 2 years and might or might not know that I've also visited India. I'm aware of the lynchings of beef-eaters, but I wouldn't be shocked if in vegetarian states like Gujarat, there's also intolerance toward non-vegetarians. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:19, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: Do we have any regular contributors who are actually from India to verify any of these? An Indian-American or Indian-Canadian is not going to have the same cultural experience as someone actually from India. The dog2 (talk) 07:42, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
DaGizza edited, but Ravikiran r, Prof tpms, Soumya-8974, and I believe Roovinn are all Indian. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:51, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Also Rangan Datta Wiki. I'm sure there are some people I'm forgetting or don't know are Indians. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:59, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
But I have to say, you are again engaging in stereotypes. "An Indian-American or Indian-Canadian is not going to have the same cultural experience as someone actually from India." Why couldn't their experience be similar enough for them to be knowledgeable on this and other subjects, if they visit relatives in India, speak the local language and use their powers of observation? Isn't the point of traveling for many people to learn things about how other people live and think in other places? If you think that it's not possible to learn things from speaking to people who live in a particular place, why are you editing a travel guide? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:02, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Also, would every Indian know? I surely do not know about fine points of Serbian or Italian culture, although I am a European. –LPfi (talk) 15:02, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ That's a fair point about Indian-Americans. My experience with Chinese-Americans and Chinese-Australians though is that they are very much assimilated into American/Australian culture, and there's almost nothing Chinese about them other than their skin colour (of course, there are exceptions, but this is in general). Most of them only speak English, and are Evangelical Christians as opposed to practising traditional Chinese religion. I guess Indian-Americans have preserved their ancestral culture a lot better, since most of the speak an Indian language, and practise their traditional religion. The dog2 (talk) 17:16, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Some do, some don't, and for some, their traditional religion is Islam, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, etc. Just don't stereotype individuals. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:49, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
The closest thing we have to an authoritative source on the extent of vegetarianism in India is the Registrar General of India survey in 2016, which showed a prevalence of around 30% nationally. Other sources have provided ranges of somewhere between 20%-40%. In the context of India, it refers to people who avoid eating meats and eggs, and "ovo-vegetarians" represent another 5-10% of the population. Among religious communities, Jains and Sikhs are the most likely to be vegetarian (Sikhs being more vegetarian than Hindus is contrary to stereotypes within and outside of India but multiple studies have reported this). Among caste or state boundaries, the situation is more complicated than it appears. On average, the higher the caste, the greater the likelihood of someone being vegetarian but there are a huge number of exceptions. Brahmins from Himalayan regions like Kashmir consume meat while Brahmins from the coastal regions of Bengal, Odisha, Kerala, Maharashtra, etc. consumer fish and seafood. On the other hand, Dalits, other lower-caste and oppressed people who live in fertile areas where crops are readily available are often vegetarian. Geography and the availability of food is a significant factor. Among states where over 90% of the people are not vegetarian like Telangana, being vegetarian on certain days or holy months is the norm among Hindus, similar to Fridays and Lent among some Catholic communities. The number of times a non-vegetarian eats meat per week is lower than the West among nearly all communities because of the cost, availability of vegetarian food, and in some cases religious factors which push certain faiths towards a half-vegetarianism of sorts.
There are issues with the original wording but the changes are potentially more problematic. The more specific the claim, the more evidence you need to back it up. And painting a broad brush over 1.3 billion very diverse people isn't necessary in a travel guide. Taboos against food are highly varied. Whether it's meat, beef, pork (which is taboo among many Hindus too, not just Muslims), allium vegetables (which Jains and some Hindus abstain from and many Hindus abstain from on certain days), alcohol, cigarettes, and other drugs, the taboos mostly manifest themselves in social judgement and snobbery, not true intolerance or violence. Violence is rare and if it will happen, is more likely to occur on religious sites where there are more prohibitions. Whatever intolerance does occur nearly always happens towards the local populace. The "When in Rome" adage doesn't necessarily hold except in religious places. A conservative, judgemental Indian will more likely judge a local for not conforming to a dress code or food habits than a foreigner visiting the country who are expected to have a different culture, which is why beef is available in 5-star hotels across the entire country. Conversely, you may be judged and mocked for being a vegetarian in places where it is not the norm at all, and where it can be difficult to find vegetarian food on occasions.
Trends over time are also complicated. Among friends and relatives I know in India, I've seen shifts in both directions (away and towards vegetarianism) among the younger generations, and also the situation flipping after one generation (e.g. the grandparents and kids could be meat eaters while the parents are veg). I haven't found any independent research that looks into this in depth. Vegan and keto/almost carnivorous diets are also gaining popularity among pockets of the educated class, probably due to exposure to Western media and the internet.
The point is that whatever is written in a section about a highly-populous and diverse country should be very general, because we don't have the space to describe all of the nuances (of which I only scratched the surface) nor it is particularly useful for a traveller. Some things could be mentioned further down the hierarchy though at the even at the state level, the situation is more complicated than what the stereotypes say (40% of the people in Gujarat are not vegetarian). Gizza (roam) 02:04, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
@DaGizza: Thanks for explaining. Since you appear to know what you are writing about, I will let it stand. It's a very common misconception in America the most Indians are vegetarian, and as a foreigner living in the US, I've met so many people with that view. And indeed most (but not all) Indian-Americans I have met are vegetarian. But in Singapore, we have a substantial Indian community dating back to colonial times, and most of them, whether Hindu, Muslim or Sikh (the Jain community is very small, and I have yet to meet one), are not vegetarian. (And for context, most Indian-Singaporeans are Tamils, though there are also substantial numbers of Malayalees and Punjabis, and much smaller numbers of Indians of other backgrounds) So yeah, I just wanted to be sure that whatever we have there is accurate information, and not based on some popular misonception. The dog2 (talk) 02:23, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Vietnamese cuisine articleEdit

Swept in from the pub

I wonder if anyone has the expertise to create this. Vietnamese cuisine is one of the great cuisines of Asia, and I think it's kind of a pity that we don't have any articles covering it. The dog2 (talk) 19:49, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

There are always Wikipedia articles to consult, and they're usually much more comprehensive than Wikivoyage articles, which should remind us to be focused squarely on practical travel-related questions like where to go for the best examples of this or that dish and what kind of behavior is normal and expected when eating and drinking. That said, I think a lot of us have at least some experience eating Vietnamese food. I have yet to visit Vietnam but have eaten Vietnamese food in France, the U.S., Canada and Hong Kong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:28, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
I've been to Vietnam, but only for short trips; once to the north and once to the south. The Vietnamese food you get in the U.S., Canada and Australia is mainly southern Vietnamese food. The pho in the north is different; you typically don't get the condiments like lemon, basil and mint, as that's a very southern thing. But you may get some fritters to dip in the soup. Generally, Vietnamese people regard pho to be better in the north, but there are other dishes like banh xeo which are more famous in the south. A potential article could cover the regional differences in Vietnamese cuisine. And just like in Thai cuisine, Vietnamese cuisine makes heavy use of fish sauce, so that could make things a little tough for vegetarians. And in general (not just in Vietnam, but in other Asian countries like Malaysia, Myanmar and Thailand too), I will advise you to avoid your hotel restaurant, and try the local food at the street stalls where you see many locals eating at; not only is it cheaper, it usually tastes better too. The dog2 (talk) 20:37, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Our rule when travelling in Vietnam was to look for places with plastic chairs or stools. If it didn't have plastic chairs, Vietnamese people wouldn't eat there, and neither would we. Ground Zero (talk) 21:16, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Spam pagesEdit

Hi, can you delete the pages in Category:Speedy deletion candidates. Thank you --Nintendofan885 (talk) 18:53, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

@Nintendofan885: Β  Done The dog2 (talk) 18:58, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Opium WarsEdit

Taking it here, not to distract from what is needed in the article.

In school here in Finland, we learnt the "mainland Chinese" version: the British fought the Opium Wars to force the Chinese to accept opium in exchange of tea and other Chinese goods, as the British had a massive trade deficit with China.

I have never heard the Hong Kong version before. I suppose I would had were it the mainstream Western version of events. I don't know what is told in the UK.

–LPfi (talk) 08:39, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

@LPfi: OK, thanks for your reply. I was just curious. There was an incident in Hong Kong recently where a history teacher was fired for teaching that the Opium Wars were an act of self defence by the British in response to unwarranted aggression from China, and that the British also fought the war to save China from an opium addiction crisis. It caused a huge controversy among the pro-democracy camp, because they felt that the his firing was an assault on freedom of speech. The dog2 (talk) 16:16, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Freedom of speech? I don't think freedom of speech covers teachers lying in class. But then, I don't know what the teacher said – if it was along the lines that there were also other reasons for the war or that some think there were, then it is about the teacher's right to teach well. Over here teachers are given large independence on such matters (trusting teachers is said to be one key factor in Finland's education success), although I think a teacher telling "alternative truth" would make for a big scandal. –LPfi (talk) 16:40, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
It is of course problematic to fire teachers for teaching what all of them have been teaching until now. In this situation no one can be assumed to think the teaching is changed because of what the truth is. It is obvious that it is purely about politics, and that the mainland version probably happens to be true is just a coincidence. I am in no position to know what really happened a century and a half ago, but self-defence is quite a shaky reason to go to war overseas against somebody with no real navy. –LPfi (talk) 17:30, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't know what the official history syllabus in Hong Kong says given that I never went to school in Hong Kong. What is certain though is that there is currently a lot of animosity against China, and nostalgia for British rule among a significant segment of the Hong Kong population. There certainly is a perception that China is trying to wipe out Hong Kong's identity, which explains why there is so much resistance to learning Mandarin in Hong Kong, as many young people feel that if they learn Mandarin, it will cause Cantonese to die out, and that they have a moral duty to protect Cantonese at all costs. (I have watched Cantonese TV shows from the mainland myself, so I have doubts in the narrative that China is trying to wipe out Cantonese and make everybody speak Mandarin only, but that's certainly what many young Hongkongers believe is happening.) The dog2 (talk) 17:42, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Southern Thai MalaysEdit

Re: this edit: I don't Thai citizens of Malay ethnicity are all taught standard Malay like people in Kelantan and Terengganu are, so I'd like to change the wording, but if my information is incorrect or out of date, please let me know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:08, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: Oh yeah, I mistyped there. I will make the change. To my knowledge, the Malays in southern Thailand are mostly taught Thai in school, but not standard Malay. The dog2 (talk) 01:57, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
That was my understanding, too. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:17, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Offensive generalizations and geopoliticsEdit

Hi The dog2, can you please focus on writing a travel guide instead of turning everything into a political controversy? Claims like "the one thing that all Americans agree on regardless of political ideology is that China is the greatest threat to American interests that must be taken down at any cost" are blatantly false, offensive, and not useful to a travel guide.

If you want to write about geopolitics and are willing to limit yourself to accurate statements instead of false overgeneralizations, I recommend editing Wikipedia. I've been finding it an interesting place to write about topics that are interesting but unsuited to Wikivoyage. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 05:49, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

If you look at the actual content of my edit, I don't think it was controversial. It's a fact that there has been an increase in hate crimes against Asians in America. And it's not only white people committing these hate crimes by the way; there are videos you can find of black people and Latinos assaulting Asians. (Though to put things in perspective, I haven't been a victim of one myself, and people who commit such crimes are still very much a minority). And there was that shooting of several Asian women in Atlanta a couple of weeks ago, so mentioning shootings was also not factually incorrect. I did not claim that everyone who hates China is a racist, and in fact, some of the most hawkish anti-China opinions I have heard come from Chinese-Americans. But I don't think you can deny that soaring U.S.-China geopolitical tensions are a contributing factor in the rise in hate crimes against Asians. Sure, you can't blame the depredations of the Chinese government on every single Chinese person, but morons will always be morons, and there will inevitably be some who take that animosity to a different level. And because morons are morons, they will not distinguish between Chinese, Japanese and Koreans, and they will assume we are all the same and attack whoever they think "looks Chinese". The dog2 (talk) 14:04, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
Mate, you've missed Granger's point entirely, which was that the sweeping statement in your edit summary was totally, completely and laughably wrong, and to Sinophile Americans, offensive. You could have easily made the helpful changes without making the unhelpful comment. And this from the perspective of a non-American who wouldn't trust the rotten Chinese "Communist" Party as far as I could spit.
As a general life rule, roughly 100% of claims that begin "All Americans (Singaporeans, Kuwaitis, Brits, Japanese...) agree that..." are false.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:50, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
There are Americans (a surprising number of them) who dispute that the world is round. (This true of other countries, too.) So explain to us how you've come to the conclusion that all Americans agree on the China question. Please provide references to polling data. Ground Zero (talk) 15:08, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
Well, it's a fact that anti-China bills always pass unanimously in both houses of Congress. Even people normally opposed to sanctions against say, Iran, Cuba or Venezuela like Bernie Sanders and AOC, or against Russia like Rand Paul, will vote in favour of sanctions against China. And if you've noticed, Biden is basically continuing Trump's foreign policy towards China unchanged since taking office. The dog2 (talk) 15:30, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
That evidence doesn't support your claim about all Americans. Ground Zero (talk) 16:24, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
This is all apart from the meaning of "taken down", which I don't think Americans would agree on (I don't recognize your use of it as a clear American expression, but I read it as "utterly dominated", which would decidedly not be the opinion of most Americans, who wouldn't support an unnecessary war with a country that can nuke us). I certainly don't know what you think we American people are unanimous on in regard to China, but if you seriously think most Americans have strong, fully-formed opinions about foreign policy, I don't think you're paying much attention to U.S. election results. Americans rarely care greatly about foreign policy unless Americans are dying in foreign wars in large numbers without being victorious (Vietnam and to a much lesser extent Iraq, and in both cases, it took a while). Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:40, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
By take down, I don't necessarily think it means through a military invasion of China, but by using whatever means necessary to contain China's rise. There is no question that China is the biggest threat to American primacy, and Biden has declared that one of his top foreign policy objectives is to ensure that China's GDP never overtakes that of the U.S. And it's simple math here. China has four times the American population, so if China reaches the same level of economic development, and the same standards of living for its citizens as the U.S., then China would be the world's most powerful economy. And that is something that American policymakers absolutely cannot allow to happen if they want to preserve American global dominance. The dog2 (talk) 18:25, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
(1) We don't use the expression "take down" in the U.S. except for to write things someone says, etc. (2) Whatever policymakers think is not necessarily the opinion of "all Americans". Come on! Don't you know better than that? The world and the U.S. are not unanimous in anything! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:00, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Why I reverted your edit on Driving in AustraliaEdit

I thought I might let you know about why I reverted your edit on Driving in Australia.

So while most urban roads in Adelaide are 60km/h, and 90km/h on urban expressways, some roads in the outer suburbs like Gawler Bypass, or roads in Virginia, Two Wells, Main South Road in Aldinga all have limits of 80-100km/h and are in Metro Adelaide. Infact, if you notice that the NSW one is 110km/h on urban, that's because the Hume is still a highway in some towns, but unlike in Victoria, the limit is 110 and not 80 or 90. Most of Sydney's roads for that matter are 80km/h, but there's a couple of non-motorway 100 or 90km/h roads. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 22:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000: I see. Now that I think about it, I remember Main South Road had a speed limit of 80 km/h some time after you pass Flinders University on the way to Victor Harbor and Kangaroo Island, and there were roads with a speed limit of 80 km/h in Hallet Cove. The Southern Expressway had a speed limit of 100 km/h, and I remember it was reversible back then, with it going north half the day, and south the other, but apparently it has been upgraded into a dual carriageway since I left. The dog2 (talk) 22:23, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it was the world's longest one way expressway, with the other side having to use A13. Also, the new northbound approach to the M2 North South Motorway northbound on South Road is 80 (up from 60) and the only 110km/h road in Adelaide is now a 100 (Pt. Wakefield Highway). I also believe that Salisbury Highway was 80 or 90, can't remember on the top on my head. But a city like Melbourne may have 100km/h roads on freeways, but the max is only 80km/h in urban areas. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 22:29, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000: By the way, do you know much about truck stops in Australia? I added some information about them, and I certainly remember the huge BP somewhere along Main North Road (or maybe it was Port Wakefield Road), but it's been a number of years since I left Australia and moved to the U.S., so there might be some things that have changed, or that I overlooked. The dog2 (talk) 22:50, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
nah, truck stops haven't changed much since you left. But a few now give free coffee, but that's only in NSW. Also, the litter bins have not changed (see Talk:Manilla (New South Wales) for a truck/rest stop dispute which went a bit too far). From what I know now, most truck/rest stops with a servo now come alongside with a Maccas next to it, but apart from it, nothing much has changed since 2015. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 22:54, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

A goat for you!Edit

Sorry for being so harsh about your edit to Presidents of the United States. This is for speaking up.

JTZegers (talk) 20:35, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Some recent editsEdit

Canton was a redirect to Guangzhou, a new user changed it to a disambig & I reverted. See talk page. Same user did a similar change to Teochew. I have not touched that. Please have a look. Pashley (talk) 13:44, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

We've had plenty of redirect problems with User:Soumya-8974 before. Also, if you want to leave the user a message, they usually have a tendency of not replying and avoiding all attempts of communication with us. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:48, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
This was also the user who created some Taiwan redirects - which were deleted and now the TW and MO redirects. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:50, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
If it's a user with a long-term abuse pattern then I'd say nuke his contributions and use the escalating series of blocks on him. The dog2 (talk) 14:20, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, this user has been doing this ever since I came here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:23, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
I suppose I agree that we cannot be bothered to discuss every redirect they come up with. Leave it to them to start the talking and get support before plunging forward. –LPfi (talk) 14:53, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
By "nuke his contributions", I hope you don't mean to eliminate them indiscriminately. He made useful contributions to various articles, particularly articles about places in India. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
I guess I mean those useless pages he's been creating. If he hasn't been responding to people's messages, then we should certainly start using the escalating series of blocks. The dog2 (talk) 15:04, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
I'm baffled by the nuking suggestion. Soumya-8974 is clearly a good-faith user and has made many helpful contributions. I think the edit to Canton makes sense, as the term was used to refer to Guangdong as a whole ("Canton Province"), as well as to Guangzhou ("Canton City"), not to mention the various other places called Canton. β€”GrangerΒ (talk Β· contribs) 15:06, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
[edit conflict] I didn't notice that wording. No, don't support any mass revert. But we can start rolling back disambig creations, just checking whether they make sense, not arguing about them. We should write a note on their talk page that we've had enough and asking them to concentrate on other work – and starting a discussion if they think a redirect is warranted. –LPfi (talk) 15:07, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
The disambig might make sense, and it might not, as I sais on the talk page, but if nine out of ten get reverted after discussion, they seem not to have a good sense about from where the wind blows among us, which makes for unnecessary discussions. –LPfi (talk) 15:08, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
@LPfi: but letting the user know on their talk page won't do much since this user never responds to messages (except one harsh worded message of mine) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:10, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
They might read them regardless. And if they insist on creating the redirect or disambiguation page, it is easy to point to that note. –LPfi (talk) 11:24, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
Very true. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:25, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

European table mannersEdit

Do you have a sense for whether the advice now in Europe#Eat is sufficient. I suppose it is for an American, but what about Chinese etc.? Is what is not said Obvious for anybody knowing enough English to read our articles? –LPfi (talk) 11:34, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

I guess we could cover a bit more. One thing I noticed is that at posher Western restaurants, you are generally expected to be quiet and talk softly. People aren't as particular about this at Chinese restaurants, at least in Singapore, since meals are a major way to socialise in Chinese culture, but of course, at posher Chinese restaurants, talking really loudly is also considered impolite. One thing I was taught in school is that Western soups are to be scooped outwards, while Chinese soups are to be scooped inwards, but from a previous discussion thread, it seems that even Europeans aren't particular about this. The dog2 (talk) 17:03, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
The avoiding loudness (and sounds other than of talking) could be worth mentioning. Although it might not be generally true, if you are observant on it you can adapt to other diners. But I don't know what level of loudness is considered normal elsewhere, it might be a similar scale everywhere (with Finns of course on the lower end of the scale, which I think is apparent from Finland#Respect). –LPfi (talk) 17:18, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
I don't know if chewing with your mouth closed and not making loud slurping noises is worth mentioning too. This applies to Chinese restaurants in Singapore too, but I'm not sure if there's a difference in etiquette if you go to China. One thing that is certainly different though is that you have finish all the food that you order in Europe since not doing so is wasteful, while in China, you are expected to order too much as not doing so is considered stingy. However, this practice of ordering too much does not apply at Chinese restaurants in Singapore; it only applies in China. In Singapore, you also order just enough for everybody to be full. Speaking of taking away leftovers, some European colleagues have told me that that is a very American thing, and to do so is considered rude in Europe. The dog2 (talk) 17:28, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
I wouldn't ask for leftovers at a fine dining restaurant, but especially at budget places the personnel is prepared for packing them. This for Finland. It might be common in the USA because of serving sizes. Here one is supposed to be content with what one gets, and it works for me: sometimes I could have eaten a little more, sometimes a little less, but seldom to the point of it being a problem. For children and small women it tends to be a bigger problem; just leaving the rest feels awkward. There's also the difference, I've understood, that the Chinese practice is to order a number of dishes that are then shared, while over here you get personal servings, with only some accompaniments shared, other than among very good friends in informal settings. You have little influence on the serving size; leaving much can be taken as a hint you didn't like the food, leaving nothing that you didn't get enough. At self-serving places, taking significantly more than you eat is of course bad manners. –LPfi (talk) 18:01, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
My colleague is from Spain, so I guess that's another country where this applies. And I have certainly noticed that portions in England are smaller than in the U.S. The dog2 (talk) 18:35, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
I think the thing about being quiet in upscale restaurants could vary a lot between European countries. Italian trattorie/ristoranti tend to have a convivial atmosphere, even if they're upscale. France is different. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:01, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
OK, I haven't been to Italy so I can't comment on that. And I didn't eat in top-end fine dining restaurants in Spain, Portugal or Iceland. My experience was based mainly on England. So go ahead and adjust based on what you know. The dog2 (talk) 19:04, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
I don't think I know enough. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:39, 21 June 2021 (UTC)