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Thanks for your edits to Singapore! I don't think there's any restaurant in Singapore where you can get a bill of S$1000 for two without heavily hitting the wine list though... (WT-en) Jpatokal 03:45, 9 February 2008 (EST)

Archived discussions

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18:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Indigenous Australian civilization


When I was learning indigenous culture, I was taught that Aboriginal Australian civilization oldest surviving civilization in the world. Unfortunately, this fact doesn't seem very well known, and needs some better recognition. Just some other sources to back that up:

  • [1] From AllThat'sInteresting
  • [2] CNN
  • [3] Tourism Australia
  • [4] The Guardian
  • [5] Also from the Guardian

There were of course older civilizations, but they're not currently living civilizations today. I'll make that more clearer in the article. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:49, 14 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

If you're talking about continually-existing civlisations, then I guess that's possible. But humans most certainly emerged in Africa before they made their way to Australia, so the earliest human societies most certainly arose in Africa. The dog2 (talk) 21:58, 14 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
True. I reworded it to say that it's the oldest living civilization. However, according to this,

Africa's first great civilization emerged in ancient Egypt in c.3400 BC. Carthage was founded by Phoenicians in the 9th century BC.

I do find it hard to believe as that's not backed up with citations, but hopefully the reworded one makes it more clearer. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:01, 14 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
OK, that works. And African history just happens to be one of my pet peeves because there's so much ignorance of that too. People often think that apart from Egypt and Carthage, Africa was an uncivilised place with only hunter-gatherer cultures, but that's simple not true, and sub-Saharan Africa has a very rich history too, with civilisations that built great cities and complex societies (and besides, I don't like this notion that hunter-gatherer people are uncivilised; it's just a different lifestyle in my view, and there's no reason to view them as inferior to urbanised peoples). The dog2 (talk) 22:26, 14 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Even places like Botswana or Central Africa also had rich history too but it's a sad pity that they also get ignored just like the sub-Saharan Africa or many other places in the world.
Papua New Guinea is another example, which is not far from both Asia and Australia. Unfortunately, the stereotype is that the country has many "uncivilized tribes" living in the highlands far from urbanised places when each of their cultures is quite unique. I'm sure that these these photos are not what most people think of PNG and will probably shock most. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:36, 14 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Mexican food in Adelaide


I was going to add a "Mexican" section in Australian cuisine but wanted to check how common is Mexican food in Adelaide as I never really went looking for them when I was last in Adelaide. At least in my area, Mexican restaurants are nearly everywhere, but it's mostly Mexican-American cuisine as opposed to the traditional Mexican style you'd get in Mexico and I had a similar experience when I last went to Melbourne and Brisbane, but how common is it in Adelaide? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:20, 22 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

I've been to one Mexican restaurant in North Adelaide, but it's also more Mexican-American than authentic Mexican. I also remember that the food court at Marion Shopping Centre had a "Mexican" place along the lines of Taco Bell, but it was a local Australian chain. The dog2 (talk) 05:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
And in Adelaide, is it common to find Mexican chains like Taco Bell, Guzman y Gomez or Mad Mex? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:25, 22 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
I don't recall seeing any of them when I was in Adelaide. Vaticidalprophet has been in Adelaide more recently than I have, so he might be a better person to ask. But suffice to say, Mexican food was quite rare in Adelaide, and some Americans living in Adelaide told me that what they missed most about home was the Mexican food. The dog2 (talk) 05:31, 22 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
I guess they have yet to come to Adelaide yet. The Mexican food here in Sydney has only really popped up within the last seven or eight years, so it's pretty new here and (not exaggerated) you're probably ten times more likely to find Thai food. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:38, 22 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, the Mexican food presence in Adelaide is pretty negligible. Even in much bigger cities it's very, very low compared to what someone coming from anywhere in the Americas would expect. When I last visited there are GyGs now, but still very few. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 05:56, 22 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

I think Travellers' Pub#Uyghur independence was clear enough


Hi there. Did you forget this was already discussed in the Pub? I agree with what the others wrote at the time, that Uyghur independence and Xinjiang are utterly tangential topics during a visit by (mostly) English-speaking tourists to Turkey. There are lots of things that are true, that we nonetheless don't need to write about in a travel guide. But you know this already :-) ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:33, 24 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

To add, the Turkish form of Xinjiang, Sincan, is in almost as common use as Doğu Türkistan, even by those with nationalist/pan-Turkist worldviews (who presumably are the most pro-Uyghur of a population already by and large pro-Uyghur). Vidimian (talk) 20:33, 24 January 2022 (UTC)Reply



I think everyone here also now shortens it to "chips" as well, but "fries" is becoming increasingly common, even outside fast-food chains, and have recently seen two local cafes use "fries". Not sure whether it varies state-to-state, but perhaps we could write a longer explanation in Australian cuisine. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:50, 28 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, it's been a number of years since I left Australia, so things might have changed since then. But back then, in casual conversation, everyone said "chips", and I never heard the word "fries" outside American fast food chains. In the small local takeaways selling roast chicken, it was always "chicken and chips". They may say they are going to buy some "fries" from McDonald's (or Maccas, if you'd like), but that's it. The dog2 (talk) 22:55, 28 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
That's actually a pretty new trend, and I only noticed that in early December – a little less than two months ago. There's a increasing trend to use the North American version, at least in NSW but I don't know what it's like elsewhere. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Uyghur independence

Swept in from the pub

This edit and this edit make questionable assertions about support for the Uyghur independence movement in Turkey and Kazakhstan. Even if the statements are true, do we really want to get to this level of granularity in telling readers what to talk about and what not to talk about? In my decades of travelling, including to China and Turkey (twice), the question of Uyghur independence has never come up in conversation. I would delete these comments, but I would like to hear other views on the question.Ground Zero (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Clear violation of tcf. We have a general issue with country articles becoming bloated with text not useful for the average traveller. /Yvwv (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
I've reverted the additions. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:18, 4 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Before the issue started to gain Western support, Turkey and Kazakhstan had already been providing refuge to many Uyghur independence activists who fled China. Of course, many fled to Western countries too (I dined at an Uyghur restaurant run by Uyghur independence activists in Australia, for instance), but Turkey and Kazakhstan have the largest concentration of Uyghur independence activists in non-Western countries, and there is most certainly a degree of kinship that the Turks and Kazakhs feel with the Uyghurs since they are all Turkic peoples. Unfortunately, I don't have Kazakh colleagues here, but nearly all the Turkish colleagues I have interacted with have expressed support for the Uyghur independence movement. The dog2 (talk) 20:20, 4 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
I don't doubt what you are saying, but I think few travellers would start talking about how wonderful the Chinese Uyghur policy is! In what scenario is this warning useful? We are anyway advised to tread lightly when discussing politics abroad. –LPfi (talk) 21:06, 4 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

Feelings in Ukraine


I reverted your edit on Ukraine. Any Finnish journalist who has commented on the polarization tell that the attack united the country: no one has any sympathy for Russia any more, and many Russian speaking Ukrainians have started to speak Ukrainian instead of Russian to demonstrate that point. The ethnic Russians are even more chocked than ethnic Ukrainians: how does bombing us help us? From where did you get the impression you wrote in the article? –LPfi (talk) 19:10, 23 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Are you talking about ethnic Ukrainians who speak Russian, or actual ethnic Russians? What I've heard from YouTubers based in the Donbass (though those guys are naturally pro-Russia) is that the people there see Putin as a liberator from Ukrainian oppression. And the media can easily choose to interview and highlight the ethnic Russians who oppose Putin, since those people certainly exist. The dog2 (talk) 19:15, 23 March 2022 (UTC)Reply
(Sorry for having had this discussion split up between my talk page and yours.)
I speak about actual ethnic Russians who live in Kharkiv or its surroundings (not those in Donetsk). And I don't listen to Fox news. Of course most Western media, including that of Finland, is biased in much of its reporting, because they get much of their international stuff from AP and the like, and are influenced by the general feelings in the west, including the discussion in quality media, likewise biased for similar reasons. But for Russia and Ukraine, we do have journalists who have lived in and travelled around the area for years. It's their reports we read and listen to now, in addition to the probably more biased interviews with Ukrainian (and Russian) expatriates and refugees, and domestic experts. Most of them have started their correspondent carrier in Russia, so there is no reason they would avoid getting Russian acquaintances, or not calling them to hear about their current sentiments.
I would be very reluctant to believe a word from media or youtubers from Russia or areas under Russian control elsewhere, unless I know them from before the invasion.
LPfi (talk) 20:03, 23 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Finland and NATO


For the second time you added a note that Finland has announced it will join NATO (former one in European history a week ago, I think, now in Finland). In the latest news here in Finland they say the decision is scheduled to be made informally during the weekend and formally on Monday. "Finland" cannot announce anything before formal decisions. Where have you got your information? –LPfi (talk) 17:21, 12 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

@LPfi: here. The Finnish government has made the official announcement. Unless perhaps something got lost in translation (unfortunately, I don't understand Finnish so I can't read the original). The dog2 (talk) 17:23, 12 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
OK. Here it was said that the President and the Prime Minister announced their personal opinion on Tuesday today. There was no decision yet, and "Finland" didn't say anything. It is unlikely that the Government (who makes the decision together with the President) won't follow their recommendation – most parties have announced they share that opinion – but it hasn't happened yet. –LPfi (talk) 17:29, 12 May 2022 (UTC)Reply
The Finnish original seems to say "Now that the time for decision is close [...] our opinion [...] Finland must [...]". So very strong words, but not a decision, and their joint statement, not Finland's. The statement was cited at the top of the government's site, and the linked page is available in three languages, here a link to the English version. –LPfi (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

The dog2: this is the latest example in your long history of posting information about politics and history that is incorrect. These errors make work for other editors, whose time is better spent adding travel content. It also causes us to question the accuracy of everything you add. I believe that you should just stop making changes to text about politics and history. I also think that there are other editors who agree with me. I would prefer not to make a big deal of this. If necessary, I will escalate this to a discussion in the Pub, but I would order if you would just cease making such edits. Ground Zero (talk) 19:20, 12 May 2022 (UTC)Reply



Could you provide me a reliable source to determine the lì chūn information for future years? I'd like to automate hte update of the content as done for Ramadan. Thanks, --Andyrom75 (talk) 16:36, 5 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Here's one from the Hong Kong government. I'll see if I can find others. Unfortunately, it is only in Chinese. Look for the row with the Chinese characters 立春. The second column gives the day, and the third column gives the time. The dog2 (talk) 17:13, 5 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

High schools


You wrote "... equivalent of high schools in the West". Is that equivalent to high schools in the USA? The West doesn't have a common school system. –LPfi (talk) 16:19, 8 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, sort of. In Singapore primary school is 6 years, which is followed by 4 years of secondary school, and 2 years of junior college. So while it's not exactly the same, it is analogous to American senior high school. The dog2 (talk) 16:21, 8 June 2022 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. I don't know the US system well, but I suppose the age is what counts. Edited accordingly. –LPfi (talk) 16:49, 8 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

"General American" accent of Donald Trump


I guess you don't have a keen ear for New York accents. His New York accent is very clear, even if it's not quite as intense as Bernie's Brooklyn accent, but then Trump comes from Queens, and there are historically different accents in different boroughs. Anyway, please forgive me, but I'm going to edit your edit in the New York City article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:47, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

By the way, I won't quote from it because of the WPost's paywall, but I see this much as a search result: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/09/whats-up-with-donald-trumps-voice/ Donald Trump's accent, explained - The Washington Post Feb 9, 2016 "Trump's working-class New York accent may also help the billionaire appear a bit more relatable on the stump." Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:55, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Reply
A somewhat different take at https://pix11.com/news/local-news/who-has-the-better-new-york-accent-sanders-or-trump/:
Trump’s accent, according to the professor, reflects his different socioeconomic background and upbringing from Sanders more than the fact that Sanders is from Brooklyn and Trump from Queens.
“Donald Trump was born into a rich family, went to school with other rich kids,” Professor Newman said, “but his accent is still very much New York.”
So take your pick, but don't argue that he has a "General American" accent, whatever you mean by that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:57, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Ikan Kekek: OK. I remembered watching a video on YouTube where they said you can tell from the accents that Donald Trump came from a rich family, and Bernie Sanders came from a working class family. What I certainly noticed is that Trump's accent is rhotic (like most other American accents), while Bernie's accent is non-rhotic (like a typical New York accent). I think this is the one. Also, there was another video saying that there is no specific Bronx or Brooklyn accent, and really, accents differed based on ethnicity. So an Italian New Yorker, an Irish New Yorker and Jewish New Yorker for instance would have somewhat different accents, due to the influences from their respective ancestral languages. Have a look at this. I think in the Vice video, they also mentioned that Bernie Sanders' accent is indicative of his Jewish ethnic background.
By the way, I recommend watching the whole series of the Wired video if you are interested in the linguistics of American English. I learnt from those videos that the accents of Latinos differ geographically depending on which country the Latin America immigrants in that region came from, so a New York Latino accent will have a more Puerto Rican and Dominican twang, a Miami Latino accent will have a more Cuban twang, and a Southern California Latino accent will have a more Mexican twang. The dog2 (talk) 17:38, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Reply
Brooklyn Italian-Americans and Jews can really sound the same, and far from all New York accents are non-rhotic. Mine is rhotic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:10, 18 June 2022 (UTC)Reply
OK, now there's a specific New York dialect of AAVE and Spanglish? Is it as different from Upstate New York dialects as the New York City accent(s) is (are)? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Ikan Kekek: You should watch the Wired video I posted. They got a black linguist and a Latina linguist to go through the dialectal differences in AAVE and Latino English between different parts of the country. They are experts who can explain it better than I can. The dog2 (talk) 00:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)Reply



Fair enough, I see what you're getting at now. We could make it more specifically about the other country than the reader's home country, though. I'll have a go, tell me what you think.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:17, 1 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

Sure. As an example, if you talk to Chinese people living in the U.S., you'll find that most of them absolutely loathe the Chinese government, especially since Xi Jinping took office. But if you travel to China and think the people living there will have the same views, you might be in for a rude shock because he actually enjoys strong support domestically, and this has been corroborated by studies done by the Harvard Kennedy School and Pew Research (and I presume that such reputable institutions would have already taken the lack of political freedoms in China into account when they publish their studies). My own experience too is that the Chinese nationals living in Singapore (where they have the freedom to speak out against the Chinese government and read Western news sources) tend to be more supportive of the Chinese government compared to those living in the U.S. The dog2 (talk) 15:12, 1 September 2022 (UTC)Reply
Yeah, makes sense. I have two new colleagues from HK.
I replaced your paragraph with mostly different words to emphasise the visitor's experience. It's a little awkwardly-worded though.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:56, 1 September 2022 (UTC)Reply
It actually looks pretty good to me. The dog2 (talk) 16:07, 1 September 2022 (UTC)Reply



Interesting. Didn't know that German restaurants also serve pork (the only German restaurant I've been to was in California), but I guess that's something new I've learned. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 02:15, 7 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000: Germans are known for their crispy skin roast pork, and there are quite a number of restaurants in South Australia that do pretty decent ones. Even if they're not specifically German restaurants, South Australia has a lot of German heritage, especially in the Barossa Valley, so even some non specifically German restaurants serve very good crispy skin roast pork. And here in Chicago, one of the German restaurants makes a very good crispy skin pork knuckle on Saturdays only. Germans also make lots of pork sausages, and you can find quite a stall called Barossa Fine Foods in Adelaide Central Market that sells pretty good ones. And if you want explore German heritage in the U.S., the Midwest is where you should go to. Not California. The dog2 (talk) 02:22, 7 October 2022 (UTC)Reply
Ooh, this has made me want to stop over at Hahndorf when I visit Adelaide later this year (and I probably will now). I was aware that SA does have a strong German heritage, but I didn't expect it to be this strong. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 02:29, 7 October 2022 (UTC)Reply
@SHB2000: As a side point, I know Australia does not have much Spanish heritage, but if you want pork, besides German restaurants, Spanish restaurants are a good bet too. The Philippines has suckling pig because of the legacy of Spanish colonial rule. If you ever travel to Spain, you'll notice how pork-heavy their diet is. Also, in the rest of Southeast Asia, roast pork was mainly brought there by Cantonese immigrant, so in places like Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, and even Singapore, if you see crispy skin pork belly, it's likely that the stall owner is of Cantonese descent. You often find crispy skin roast pork in Vietnamese areas in Australia because many of boat people who fled Vietnam were ethnic Chinese, and most ethnic Chinese in Ho Chi Minh City (Saigon) are of Cantonese descent. The dog2 (talk) 14:29, 7 October 2022 (UTC)Reply

Happy holidays!


Happy holidays, The dog2!

Hello The dog2, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! It has been a pleasure to have you as a fellow Wikivoyager this year. Wherever you are, enjoy the festive season and stay warm (if you're north of the Tropic of Cancer)! Your help in maintaining, improving and expanding Wikivoyage will always be appreciated.

Greetings from Sydney, New South Wales, Australia.
--SHB2000 on 12:33, 24 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000: Thanks so much. Happy holidays to you too. The dog2 (talk) 04:03, 25 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

re Special:Diff/4586725


Indeed. Parks like Pribaikalsky National Park and the Russian Far East are really impressive and are one of their kind. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 05:28, 29 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

Deletion of listings in grand old hotels


I do not think listings should be deleted without prior discussion. Notice that there is no criteria for a hotel to be 4- or 5-star. If you read the preamble it says: "Some hotels have a heritage from the golden age of steam railways and ocean liners; before the Second World War, in the 19th or early 20th centuries. These hotels were where the rich and the famous of the day would stay. They have an appeal all their own: old fashioned fittings, the lack of the latest amenities, and a certain graceful agedness. They are often in superb locations, either smack in the middle of cities – very often being next to a major railway station, as they were often constructed to house railway travelers – or close to major outdoor attractions. For this article, we also include numerous mid-20th century hotels that are iconic and historically significant". Colonial hotels in Africa, especially a 3 star hotel in Senegal would definitively qualify. Jonte-- (talk) 11:08, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

The question is, is it still grand? If it's run down and dirty these days, then it's not grand, is it? The dog2 (talk) 17:09, 29 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Depending. If the interiors are destroyed, then probably not, but shouldn't we discuss them on the talk page? Especially just mentioning stars in the edit summary sets a bad precedent: somebody else might might remove a hotel because of it not having more than three stars, although it might still be grand. What star rating are we using? Aren't television and minibar required for 4 star in some systems? What 19th century hotels had these? Are they required for our article? –LPfi (talk) 14:58, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply
Sure, I'm happy to discuss them on the talk page. I was doing Google searches and these ones didn't look that grand anymore. But if anyone has been there and shows that it's still grand, then sure, we can put it back. The dog2 (talk) 16:12, 30 January 2023 (UTC)Reply

Pork is not banned in Israel


This is simply false:

"Pork is rare or in some countries banned due to Islamic or Jewish customs."

There isn't a single country in the world where pork is banned due to Jewish Law or customs. Can you please stop edit warring in the Middle East article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:57, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

It says "rare or in some countries banned". I presume pork will be rare in Israel even if it may be legal since pork is taboo in Judaism, but if that's not true, correct me. The dog2 (talk) 13:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
If I may say so, you presume too much, you care too much about arcane minutiae totally outside ttcf and WV:Tone, you seem to need to exaust all the subject matter's angles and nooks and cronies in print on every article, especially the top ones in the hierarchy. Sorry to sound harsh. But sometimes it gets tiresome to copyedit all the stuff you're trying to add. Ibaman (talk) 13:33, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
The sentence can be read "Pork is rare, or in some countries banned due to Islamic or Jewish customs." The lack of a comma does not make it clear that pork is not banned in Israel. So it serves the traveller and fairness best to phrase the sentence more carefully. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:14, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
OK, I've rephrased it to try to avoid the misunderstanding. Please have a look and make further edits if necessary. The dog2 (talk) 18:23, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
I think the current phrasing is OK. Thanks for working with me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)Reply



Does the Don River Railway count? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

@SHB2000: Sure. I lived in South Australia, so the ones in South Australia are the ones that I know of, but I'm sure there are some elsewhere in Australia that are worth listing. The dog2 (talk) 22:02, 26 April 2023 (UTC)Reply
I've never really seemingly paid attention to many heritage railways (except when I was in Tasmania last summer), but w:List of heritage railways in Australia has a good list of some heritage railways. There aren't many in my area, but that's because I live in an area of Sydney that's been heavily redeveloped and every other railway near me is used in some way or form. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:39, 27 April 2023 (UTC)Reply



Hello, can we talk about my contribution to the Australia article? 05:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Sure, but please raise it on the talk page for Australia. I just don't think your edits improved the article. For instance, there's no point in listing the visas based on price because which visa you are eligible for is really based on your nationality, and you don't really get a choice. But if you disagree, bring it up on the Australia talk page and see what other editors say. Until we have consensus, status quo bias applies. The dog2 (talk) 05:12, 16 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
I have raised it Talk:Australia#Visa219.88.232.230 05:30, 16 June 2023 (UTC)Reply



Looks about right to me, but I don't know a lot about the nitty-gritty aspects of firearm regulations since I've never had the need to find them out. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:34, 23 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

China: Visa policy


It appears that your page doesn't show the maximum stays for each visa-free country. Here's what I'm found on the FMPRC's Department of Consular Affairs (please click "入境居留" for information):

Best wishes.廣九直通車 (talk) 03:43, 25 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

It's mentioned in a sentence below the table. But OK, since you have an official Chinese government source indicating a longer allowed period of stay, I won't revert. I just think that for visa requirements, an official Chinese government source should always be trusted over Wikipedia. The dog2 (talk) 03:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
I had updated the provisions. To be accurate, it's almost impossible to input all source links in the edit summary, so for the next time, perhaps more sources can be inputted in the talk page?廣九直通車 (talk) 12:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Why wouldn't you take 10 seconds to look this up?


Addiny incorrect information about drug laws could be dangerous for readers, and undermines the credibility of Wikivoyage. Why wouldn't you take 10 seconds to Google this before adding it? Ground Zero (talk) 02:14, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply



Hey, re split paragraph ledes, I really think it's important that we have a nice thick lede paragraph, when possible. My reasoning is, ledes are the fundamental thing that drive non-desktop access to Wikvoyage sites. For example, click on any non-important location on Google Maps, and you get an API request for a lede from Wikipedia. They do this because Wikipedia generally has good juicy ledes, before any newline cuts it off. We should aspire to this. I have a dream of someday typing some travel-related query into Google and they use our ledes! That might not ever happen, but good thick ledes are also fundamentally important to people who don't access WV over a desktop device. I feel like our weird three-paragraph or like "xxx is a country in yyyy, next line" ledes are a hangover from our WT days. So I'm basically asking you to keep thick paragraph ledes. Brycehughes (talk) 07:46, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

You should probably take this discussion to the pub and see what the community says. Long paragraphs can be hard to read when you're pressed for time. The dog2 (talk) 14:03, 20 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I'm not talking anything crazy. Just more than one sentence. Brycehughes (talk) 00:23, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
But anyway, I don't have the authority to decide this issue unilaterally. You need to take it to the pub and get a consensus on how our ledes should be. The dog2 (talk) 00:25, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I think there is consensus on trying to include interesting stuff in the first paragraph and to leave boring details to Understand. I haven't seen what edits this is about, but I think using some common sense, knowing that only the first paragraph will show in some contexts, will go a long way. –LPfi (talk) 11:57, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Of course the lede needs to be interesting. That's not what is being disputed. The issue is on whether or not we want long single-paragraph ledes. The dog2 (talk) 14:51, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I think it's best for the first paragraph to be more than just "Destination X is a city in Y", but I also think it's reasonable to split the lede into multiple paragraphs if it's long enough that a single paragraph would look like a wall of text. Would anyone be able to point to examples of the ledes that led to this discussion? —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:58, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Brycehughes is the one who is pushing for long single-paragraph ledes. The Thailand article is one example. It doesn't look too bad when on computer, but looks really long when viewed on a mobile device. The dog2 (talk) 15:27, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm not really "pushing" anything hard here, more a suggestion. I don't think two or three sentences to begin is too thick for a mobile viewer (I use mobile all the time). And a single-sentence is just awkward writing. Brycehughes (talk)
The earlier version of the Thailand lede had a short first paragraph, but one that packs a punch by starting with a bunch of description of why travelers might want to go there. The current first paragraph is on the long side, and since the lede is supposed to draw the reader in, I think it makes sense to go for something bite-sized in this part of the article. Still, it's not that long – only about half a screen on my mobile device and a similar length to Singapore's first paragraph. This intermediate version seems reasonable to me in terms of paragraph length.
To be honest I'm not a huge fan of the current lead. I find parts of it ("some never find a reason to leave", "it can be a little hard to get to know the 'real' Thailand, but if you get off the beaten track and dig deep enough...", "Thailand is what you make of it") a little trite and generic. One might say the same things about anywhere from Las Vegas to Barcelona. In the spirit of "show, don't tell", can we convey this information in a way that shows more of the flavor of Thailand specifically? —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Unfortunately, writing is not my biggest strength, but in principle I agree that the lede should emphasise what is attractive about Thailand. Westerners tend to go there for the beaches of course, but it's also a great shopping and dining destination. And not to mention some really beautiful temples. My experience is that the sex tourism is there only if you go looking for it, but if you want to experience the local Thai culture, you can find it quite easily in Bangkok too and don't have to go way off the beaten track. The last time I went to Bangkok, I specifically sought out the food stalls that locals patronised and avoided the tourist traps on Khao San Road. With a bit of online research, you can avoid the tourist traps too. The dog2 (talk) 16:50, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I think the current lead could very well be split in two, with the first ending in the sentence on land of smiles. The rest, starting with "It has relatively good infrastructure" is quite boring, with most of the phrases Granger quotes. Even if rewritten, that part has nothing that needs to be in the first paragraph. –LPfi (talk) 19:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I'd be very happy to see it rewritten – I'm not the best writer either. What I was trying to convey with "it can be a little hard to get to know the 'real' Thailand" is that, compared to its neighbours in the region, many of its attractions feel somewhat purged of culture and authenticity for the sake of maximising tourist income. This isn't unique to Thailand globally, but in my experience (been there three times, currently live in SE Asia), it feels truer there (Bali excepted). (On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that objectively and I wanted to make sure I balanced that out with the positive.) I'm not sure the comparison to Barcelona or Vegas is quite on point, although honestly I'm not a big fan of those two cities but that's just my personal style. Anyway, all that is to say, I don't mind if we drop that line. Re-reading "Thailand is what you make of it", is extremely boring (embarrassing for me), I might just delete that now. Brycehughes (talk) 00:37, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
To some degree, yes, if you go to the transgender cabarets for instance. But it's also not that difficult to find places that the locals would patronise. Bangkok Chinatown may seem like a tourist trap, but the food stalls I ate at were patronised by the locals too. Some of them serve things like offal that most Westerners would typically shun. The dog2 (talk) 00:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I wouldn't say it's just the cabarets, Khaosan Rd, etc. For what it's worth, I spent a month in Bangkok a year or two ago and ate at some fantastic places, met some incredible people, but I was very much off the beaten path in Bangkok. So yeah I'd agree with you about tourist Bangkok, but also the known islands, Phuket (gawd), "up north" (you know what I mean), and basically anywhere the crowds go. It feels like SE Asian Orlando a lot of the time. But that's just my opinion and in my boring-ish lede I was just trying to be fair, and if anyone here wants to "fix" my writing I have absolutely no problem with that, in fact I'd appreciate it. Brycehughes (talk) 09:29, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
By the way, who is a good writer around here? Most of us just seem to be logic nerds (myself included), and sometimes when I see some really good writing I look up who wrote it and they either disappeared back in the transition or were banned later for being extreme in some random case (which is also kind of a sign of being a good writer). So sincerely curious is there anyone here we can be like hey can you make some of this beautiful? Brycehughes (talk) 10:13, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Alright Granger I don't LOVE it love it, but it's pretty fuckin good. Bravo. Maybe you're our good writing guy (sorry I don't actually know how to check for pronouns on Wikimedia sites, so correct me if I'm wrong) Brycehughes (talk) 15:10, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, I'm glad you like it. To be honest I didn't write that much of it, I was mostly adapting material from "Understand". I think my own writing is a mixed bag – sometimes in an article for a destination I know well, I can write a lede I'm proud of, but in other cases I struggle. (By the way, not to start a tangent, but I mentioned Las Vegas and Barcelona because they're cities I really enjoyed even though I'm not big on the most famous attractions like gambling, beaches, and traditional nightlife. Barcelona is a great destination for art, architecture, Catalan culture, history, and cuisine, and Las Vegas is fun for people-watching, nature, and a surprising variety of entertainment. Both are cities where, in my opinion, it's well worth trying to dig beneath the surface.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I really like your Thailand lede. (On the tangent, and only for the fun of it, I think Las Vegas is really fun for a particular thing that I went for at age 21, but I wouldn't exactly scream hey mum go to Las Vegas, but it is what it is and I would totally recommend if you haven't been there... nobody goes to Vegas not knowing what they're getting into. Re Barcelona.. ehhh just felt so overcooked to me [been there twice], like a lot of things in Europe, and obviously I'd say yeah it's a must go, but head north or even south and you're going to get a more authentic experience. I'm a bit a judgy bitch though. Don't really like that part of Spain all that much) Brycehughes (talk) 17:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Happy holidays!


Happy holidays, The dog2!

Kia ora, The dog2, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Thank you for all the hard work you've put in the last year to make Wikivoyage the place it is today. Enjoy the festive season from wherever you are in the globe.

Greetings from Te Moeka o Tuawe, Te Tai Poutini, Aotearoa.
(Fox Glacier, West Coast, New Zealand)

--SHB2000 on 00:17, 24 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. Merry Christmas to you too. The dog2 (talk) 03:55, 24 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Hey, Merry Christmas dog2. Brycehughes (talk) 09:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. Merry Christmas to you too. The dog2 (talk) 18:11, 24 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

January 2024


You recently reverted my edit on China. I wanted to clairify - under Chinese civil aviation regs you must not have your phone out at all when the aircraft is moving. RetroCosmos (talk) 15:36, 7 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

You mean even when you put it in flight mode? If that's the case then sure, add it back, but make sure you indicate that even using flight mode is technically not allowed. The dog2 (talk) 15:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Is this really true? I've flown domestically in China a few times and internationally to and from China many times, and I can't remember ever hearing about this rule. I used my phone in airplane mode during most if not all of those flights and I don't remember flight attendants saying anything to me about it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Vietnamese phrasebook


Typically, a hole-in-the-wall restaurant's waiters and waitresses are young people, so "Em ơi" is most oftenly correct. However, the pronoun should be changed depending on the age of that person and yourself:

  • "Bạn ơi": Literally "friend", but commonly used to address a 20-ish staffer by both people of that age and (much) older people.
  • "Anh ơi": When the male staffer looks older than you, but the age difference is not too large.
  • "Chị ơi": Same as above, but for female. It might be better to use this than the next to address women in their fifties, due to you-know-what.
  • "Cô ơi": When the female staffer is much older than you, somewhere around your parents' age.
  • "Chú ơi": Same as above, but for male.
  • "Bác ơi": May be use for both genders; this implies that the staffer is a bit older than even your parents.

There's also "Ông ơi" and "Bà ơi" for very old people; you wouldn't find a waiter/waitress of this age, so such a person is either the owner or the owner's parent. If they still participate in the restaurant's business, they would work as a manager (both), a cashier (both) or the lead cook (female).

"Phục vụ! Làm ơn..." is something I would never say. Frankly, it is a bit too formal; I personally have never heard anyone use it. I'm not sure about customers of classy restaurants though, since I'm not one of those. Having said that, it is fine if the speaker is a foreigner; I'm sure that people will understand.

NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh (talk) 22:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

@NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh: OK. Thanks for the explanation. I think we should find a way to cover this in the article, but without it getting too long. The dog2 (talk) 22:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Phrases without translations


You recently added

'Remembering the Cantonese phrase 我食齋 (ngóh sihk jāai) also goes a long way in getting your point across.'

It would be very nice if there was some kind of translation, which would help me utter the phrase in the right context. Does it say "I am vegetarian", "Do you have any vegetarian dishes?", "[…] made in a vegetarian way, please" or something else? This kind of shorthand reminders work well for those who understand the language, but aren't very helpful on their own for people like me, who cannot parse the phrase.

There is a similar problem in Indonesia (I don't know who added it), see Talk:Indonesia#Incomprehensible advice for vegetarians. If you know enough of the language, please clarify in that article also.

LPfi (talk) 18:43, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

It literally means "I eat vegetarian food.", but that is also the way people would tell others that they are vegetarians. The dog2 (talk) 18:49, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. I added it to the article. Tweak as you like. (It is nice how such a short explanation tells things about how the language in question works.) –LPfi (talk) 19:09, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Please stop telling people not to criticize Israel


I reverted this because it's not about Judaism and just ridiculously purple prose. Tantamount to Holocaust-denial? You have gone off the deep end. Please stop. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:43, 24 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Surveys of American Jews have shown that about 70% see support for Israel as integral to their Jewish identity. I've only met one Singaporean Jew in my lifetime so far given that the community is very small, but he too supports Israel. I usually avoid political discussions of Israel when I know a Jewish person is around given the sensitivity of the issue, but I have heard quite a number of otherwise liberal American Jews specifically support Donald Trump's Israel policy, even though they are opposed to all his other policies. And for that matter, quite a number of Jewish donors to the top American universities have demanded that the universities shut down all pro-Palestinian protests if they want to continue receiving funding. The dog2 (talk) 19:51, 24 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
That's not about Judaism, and you can consider support for Israel to be of basic importance and still hold the country to high standards. Just stop. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
No matter how many times other contributors plead with The dog2 to stop filling up respect sections with their own personal observations, or injecting personal opinions and things that are factually wrong into Politics and History sections, The dog2 continues to do so. Imagine how much more constructive their engagement with Wikivoyage would be if they were to listen to other contributors, instead of arguing every point. Ground Zero (talk) —The preceding comment was added on 21:20, January 24, 2024 (UTC)

Happy Lunar New Year!


Hi, The dog2, wishing you a happy and prosperous Lunar New Year! Let's hope the year of the dragon brings good times ahead. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 13:08, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

(also, I typed this at 00:08 UTC+11; apologies if I sent the message a day too early) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 13:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. Happy New Year to you too. The dog2 (talk) 16:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Swedish and English proficiency in Finland


The language proficiency patterns are complicated – in Finland as probably in any country. While "Finnish people" may have told you that non-Swedish-speaking people usually are more proficient in English than Swedish, that's not all the truth. I assume that most young Finns who don't interact with the Swedish-speaking have that impression, as that's the dominant narrative in some circles. On the other hand, if you live as Swedish-speaking in a bilingual town, you will meet Finns who are just as confident speaking Swedish as their mother tongue (nearly 30% of students at Åbo Akademi are Finnish-speaking). People who speak English even weekly in varying contexts are a quite limited group, so while many think they master the language and indeed speak it pretty well, their repertoire and ability to convey nuances in English may still be limited.

As of 2005 (through Wikipedia), 63% of the population claimed to be conversant in English, 47% in Swedish. For young people the figures have probably changed a bit but still, both are commonly spoken and not everybody can speak English comfortably.

Here at Wikivoyage, the main point is still elsewhere. Who benefit from our telling that Finns master English better than Swedish? Foreigners not from Sweden usually don't speak any Swedish, so the statement is irrelevant for them. It matters for the Swedish, whom we can discourage from using their mother tongue. If they try Swedish, they might be lucky. If not, reverting to English is no worse than having started the conversation in that language.

LPfi (talk) 21:12, 5 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Whitewater sports


Please read Talk:Whitewater sports#Destinations. By adding the disambiguation page Rocky Mountains you show that you didn't even check what Wikivoyage has to offer in the article.

If you want to point the reader to possibilities not yet covered by our articles, please at least tell them why they should look at the Rocky Mountains instead of some random other place, what kind of whitewatering the area has to offer and where they should start looking. Following a link to articles with no information is just frustrating, especially when the article is reasonably long as in this case.

For Costa Rica, a link just to the country article gives the impression that there is nothing to be found, like for the Rockies and the European countries I removed. Instead linking Costa Rica#Rafting and giving a short summary of it would show that the link indeed is worth following.

LPfi (talk) 09:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the new additions. –LPfi (talk) 18:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

license/number plate


Although it never comes up in conversation, Australia these days seems to use both. On most government documents they use "number plate" (or simply "plate"), but the rise of Wilson and Secure Parkings has resulted in an increase in "license plate" (with that spelling). This is not an East Coast-specific thing, as I've seen it in SA too, but it's pretty recent (last 10 years, maybe?). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 22:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I just went by what I saw in the government documents, and based on what I had to study for my driving theory test in Australia. But I do recall people usually just say "plate" since it's usually obvious from context what you mean. The dog2 (talk) 22:22, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Probably also because both terms seem to be a handful – even myplates (NSW) seems to be only using "plate". --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 22:33, 24 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Update request for Azerbaijan and Karabakh



Can you update two relevant topics in the Azerbaijan and Karabakh articles?

Since March 2020, originally due to the COVID-19 pandemic and now due to "national security reasons", all land borders of Azerbaijan remain indefinitely closed to all passenger traffic (bus, train, car and on foot) including for Azerbaijani citizens. Only cargo (trucks and railway only) from Georgia, Russia, Iran and Turkey, is allowed to enter and leave the country by land. Passenger traffic to and from Azerbaijan is only allowed by airplane. The ban is extended every four months, since March 2020, and has not been abolished.

Official Azerbaijani source: https://nk.gov.az/az/senedler/qerarlar/azerbaycan-respublikasinin-erazisinde-xususi-karan-7580 (in Azerbaijani, but can be translated via a machine translator)

English language source: https://eurasianet.org/azerbaijan-land-borders-remain-sealed-for-individuals-but-not-trade

Karabakh needs to be updated as well, because the breakaway Nagorno-Karabakh Republic (Artsakh) ceased to exist in 2023, after Azerbaijan took all of it. After the fighting and total depopulation of the Armenians in Karabakh, it remains off limits to Azerbaijani civilians as well.

Yours sincerely, 17:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm not very familiar with both areas, but if you know about it, plunge forward and make the changes. We've already updated the Karabakh article to reflect the new situation. The dog2 (talk) 17:30, 8 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for the information. The "Get in" section is large and detailed and daunting for me to change from to to bottom. Can you add the information? 17:35, 8 May 2024 (UTC)Reply
It is daunting for everybody, and probably easier for you to do than for somebody who doesn't know the area. –LPfi (talk) 18:24, 8 May 2024 (UTC)Reply