Talk:Indonesia

Archived discussions Talk:Indonesia/Archive 2005-2012 Talk:Indonesia/Archive 2013-2018

Formatting and language conventions For articles about Indonesia, please use the 24-hour clock to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00. Please show prices in this format: Rp100 and not IDR 100, 100 rupiah, Rp. 100 nor Rp 100. For areas accepting foreign currency, use S$ for places accepting Singapore Dollars, use A$ for places accepting Australian Dollars, and for places accepting US Dollars, use US$. Please use Australian spelling (colour, realise, program, centre, labour (but Labor Party), analog, program). Phone numbers should be formatted as +62 YYY-XXX XXXX.

Moving the capital?

BBC: Indonesia's planning minister announces capital city move. Not moving yet, but probably worth keeping an eye out for developments. Pashley (talk) 14:16, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, this has been on the cards for a long while now. Anyone who has visited Jakarta will know it could definitely use a lot less pressure (traffic, water usage, pollution, etc). It would also likely make it easier for visitors to check out the very interesting old city areas. Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:38, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Edits by User:Gsarwa

Can someone fix User:Gsarwa's edits here and in other Indonesia articles, which tend to be in broken English when I read them? Thanks. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 19:23, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

User talk:Gsarwa shows that the user's English ability has been an issue for several years now. There are only so many times you can ask someone to take some grammar lessons or to seek the help of a more proficient English speaker before posting. If I can understand the gist of what (s)he is writing, I am happy to copy-edit, but I will certainly not spend any time trying to decode what (s)he is trying to say in edits like this where it is not at all clear what is trying to be conveyed.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:44, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

What Thundering said. I routinely revert edits by Gsarwa that are in terrible English. Gsarwa's English never gets one iota better, ever, no matter what. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:01, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, that's Indonesian English for you.😅 Veracious (talk) 09:56, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Rupiah prices

I think we should agree on the correct way of noting rupiah values, as I see mixed usage of the comma and the period as separators between places. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 19:56, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Actually, this has been discussed earlier at Wikivoyage talk:Currency/Archive 2014-2016#Indonesian Rupiah. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko Those edits were probably made by Indonesian user(s) since the usage of the comma and the period are reversed. What's more, they don't even wanted to bother searching the talk-page archive nor asking other user for an advice. Veracious (talk) 04:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Tone of visa section

Does anyone else feel that the tone of the immigration section is a bit harsh and sounds like it was written by someone with an agenda? Could someone who's familiar with the matter take a look and see how balanced it is and if it's in the interest of the traveler?

--103.42.218.178 12:53, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

I don't know about visa, but Indonesians are very unhappy with their own country's rule of customs duty. Veracious (talk) 04:05, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

New Mobile Phone Registration Law

I've added a section about this in the main article, but also wanted to bring it up here to ask for others' opinions on if the way I've mentioned it in the main article is sufficient (and to see if anyone else here has had first hand experience with this).

Basically, it seems like the Indonesian government, in an effort to clamp down on phones being "smuggled" in, thereby bypassing taxes that would normally be assessed, has introduced a national "registration" system for phones last September. If you want to use a phone bought from overseas with an Indonesian SIM, you have to declare it at customs and pay taxes if it's valued at over US$500. For tourists and short-term visitors there's a provision for temporarily registering devices but it seems to be one-time-only. Compiling some anecdotes from people on Reddit and across the internet more generally, there are a few things that are going to be problematic for visitors:

1. If you don't fill the online form, get the QR code, use it to declare your phone at customs on arrival and register it there, going back to customs to register it after the fact will result in the full value of the phone being taxed at 40% (30% if you have an Indonesian tax ID). No $500 tax-free allowance.

2. The "temporary registration" that carrier stores can do for short-term visitors is absolutely one-time-only for that device, unless you also register it at customs within the first 60 days. If you miss this 60-day window, you will no longer be able to register it, and after the remainder of the 90 days' temporary registration, the phone will no longer work with an Indonesian SIM, making roaming the only option going forward with that device for its lifetime.

3. I put into my most recent edit edit, perhaps too hastily, that phones not permanently registered can only work with the new tourist plans and that that's what they're for. Given the lack of tourists, there's still very little information about whether this is actually the case. Some returning Indonesians have been able to do the temporary registration (and were the ones who found out about the 60-day deadline mentioned above) to use with regular postpaid or prepaid accounts, but not sure if this applies to visitors.

Anyone else have some insight into this? I can imagine this becoming a massive headache for repeat visitors of all kinds as travel opens back up. Official word is that phones roaming in Indonesia with a foreign SIM will be unaffected, so maybe some suggestions for SIMs from elsewhere with good roaming pricing for people who don't want to deal with this?

Jamar0303 (talk) 07:09, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello, (talk)! The last time I was in Indonesia (April 2020 for 6 months) my phone, which was bought abroad, was basically unaffected by the new policy of registering your devices through the customs. AFAIK, as long as your device is not detected for the registration, you should be fine. I'll come back to this space, if there's anything new regarding past experiences from visitors, who are affected by it. ibhi19 (talk) 08:52, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Variety of English

You're sure we should be affirmatively suggesting British spellings and language for all articles about this country? Why? See Talk:Indonesia/Archive 2013-2018#Edits & variety of English for a previous discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:29, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Oops. Didn't check the spelling. I just copy pasted the template from a country that uses British and gave little regard to spelling. My bad. From what I know, they use a mix, but American is preferred.(edit 05:53: I'm getting confused here. Not Indonesia) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:31, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't know which is preferred, nor how much English is spoken in Indonesia, nowadays. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I think whichever form is used is OK, as long as there's internal consistency within an article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:45, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Wait no. I'm getting confused here with something else. But wasn't Indonesia a British colony from 1811-15? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:49, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

For four years? I have no idea. The only longish British presence I know about in what's now Indonesia was in Bengkulu, which the British traded with the Dutch for Malacca. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:47, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, when the Dutch handed all their colonies to the Brits, it's why a bunch of Asian and African colonies speak English, and not Dutch. But I believe it was later taken by the Japanese in WWII in 1942 and I have no idea about anything after that. But from what I know, the British influence on Indonesia is much more than American. (they even drive on the left) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:01, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Where do you get that idea from? The English-speaking countries that have had the biggest influence on Indonesia are Australia and the U.S., and it's not coincidental that those were the two main countries that insisted that the Dutch had to allow Indonesia to become independent and refused to support their attempt to retake the country after the Japanese occupation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:21, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Okay, so I'll admit that I haven't really learned Indonesian history after WWII. Yeah, probably it's quite uncertain here. I'd not be surprised if British was used similar to neighbouring Malaysia and Singapore, but again, I don't know for sure/ I know a couple of people who went to Indonesia as a language teacher, so I'd also not be surprised if en-AU was used here. According to this website, it seems they use truck over lorry, but they use city center, unlike the US downtown. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:35, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, on those four years in the early 19th century: The British must have been caretakers while the Netherlands was occupied by Napoleon, then gave it back to the Dutch. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:59, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ It's been a while since I went to Indonesia, but English is generally not widely spoken there. Bali is of course an exception because of its reliance on the tourism industry. When I went to Tanjung Pinang, most people did not speak English, and I had to use whatever Malay I knew to communicate with the cashier at the supermarket, for instance. And as for the 19th century, the British had colonies on Sumatra, but they traded their colonies on Sumatra to the Dutch in exchange for getting Malacca. Singapore was in fact colonised by the British from Sumatra. The dog2 (talk) 22:59, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Pinging @JarrahTree: who has a lot more experience with Indonesia. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:20, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek, The dog2, Ground Zero: I've done a lot of digging into what spelling is used, and here's what I found. I've given more leeway to Bali since that's one of the few places where English is actually spoken to a decent amount unlike other places like Jakarta where English is known by very little.

1. Wikipedia uses Australian English such as in w:Bali or w:Western New Guinea, but also British English as well like w:Indonesia or w:Jakarta.
2. The government tends to use British spelling, however, you'd need to do a lot of digging to see whether Australian or British is used. I did the easy check on whether a country uses truck or lorry. Indonesia seems to be using truck.
3. The Bali tourism website uses British English although the spelling differences are so unidentifiable that no words differ from spelling
4. Their most read newspaper site Kompas, is only written in Bahasa Indonesia. (so that doesn't help)
5. There is no consistency on Wikivoyage. Some and most articles are written in British English, others are in American English. This is however, not unusual for those using English as a second or third language. There's a similar issue with Bahrain articles too with most of them ending up using Canadian spelling.

It is quite clear that Indonesia either uses British or Australian spelling, and not American spelling, but the choice of Australian or British spelling is difficult to pick although the few differences here don't really matter too much for a travel guide (except from program and maybe catalog). This is probably caused due to as what I mentioned above. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:00, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

It's great that you did all that research. I still doubt there's more British than American influence in Indonesia, but Australia, Singapore and Malaysia are neighbors and are all heavily influenced by British English. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:14, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

It probably may have used American after WWII, but probably due to influence from neighbouring Australia, Singapore and Malaysia, it's not a surprise why they've gone back to British/Australian. But this could explain the preference for truck, not lorry, since both Singapore and Australia use truck. Not sure about Malaysia though. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:50, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

So, uncontroversially, switching? (It might as well be better since most of our articles are written in Australian/British english anyway) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:11, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

My experience was that lorry was always used in Malaysia. So, based on your research, I agree with a preference for British or Australian English, but I would not support people wasting time changing U.S. spellings in articles in which they're used consistently. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:16, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Even if we switch, I don't think anyone will be scavenging for these spelling errors, unless you just come across it by chance. (based on the experience of Bahrain) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:21, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

And you know how I said that the newspapers are in Bahasa, well it seems that I've found one newspaper (The Jakarta Post), and it mostly uses en-GB/AU, but there's the occasional couple of American spellings in some articles (not surprising though). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:19, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Also, interestingly, Jakarta and Borobudur which are guide and star articles, seem to be using en-AU/GB rather than en-US except for one word which I spotted in both the articles. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:34, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

We can't expect non-English-speaking countries to be consistent (or even much bothered about) their use of different spelling conventions when writing in English. But it doesn't make sense to provide guidance to use American spelling if it isn't what is most commonly used in Indonesia and isn't most commonly used in our articles. I support changing the guidance. Thanks to SHB2000 for doing the research. Ground Zero (talk) 11:47, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Done. Changed to Australian, not British (because that is what is used in Bali which is the biggest tourist spot in Indonesia as well as the preference for truck.). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:49, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Further discussion

British English is the de facto English language used by all government departments, in both legal and common parlance. The British ruled huge areas of Indonesia (indeed, many countries of Asia), including Sumartra, Java and parts of Borneo. Culturally, most of Indonesia is still strongly aligned with the United Kingdom regarding English, and even those areas previously under Dutch rule now align with British English. Yes, I accept that there are isolated 'hotspots' which are proliferated with Australian tourists, and I also accept that certain shops might follow the traditions of their American owners - but neither of those give any justifiable reason to change from the de facto and legal usage of British English for Indonesian articles in the English language. 78.32.143.113 16:33, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Postal codes in addresses

I don't believe Indonesia is one of the exceptions to the guidelines that normally call for the omission of postal codes in addresses, but I wanted to double-check on that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:39, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Nope, or at least per wv:postal codes, we're not supposed to include it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:55, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. In that case, they'll have to be deleted from listings in the Purwokerto article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:27, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Monas UpClose.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:30, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

No FoP in Indonesia. Do we want this? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:43, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Maybe it's not of outstanding beauty, but it is important, so I think so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:05, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Done SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:08, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Sex outside marriage made illegal?

BBC Indonesia passes criminal code banning sex outside marriage.

I'm pretty sure using rent-a-wench services or being obviously gay could get you in considerable trouble already, at least in conservative areas. But will this make it worse? What about a straight unmarried couple travelling together? Pashley (talk) 13:08, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

@Pashley Sex outside marriage is a sin for every religion in Indonesia, so nothing suprising here. Veracious (talk) 04:28, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Sure, it is a sin in many religions, though I think one that followers of most religions fairly often commit. The question for a travel guide, though, is whether we need to warn travellers about this law. That will depend mainly on how it is enforced. Pashley (talk) 04:39, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

@Pashley So far, they only swatting the shady prostitution place like in local boarding house. Authorities are rarely swatting hotel/motel, especially in an area with lots of foreign people, because they understood that foreigners do have sex outside marriage. Veracious (talk) 08:10, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• A best architectural mix (26004445313).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:52, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

This has to be uploaded locally if we want to keep it. We probably should. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:41, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Incomprehensible advice for vegetarians

In the section Dietary restrictions we say

Strict vegetarians and vegans will have a tough time in Indonesia […] You can, however, ask them to make something without meat, which can be indicated by asking for "vegetarian" or "tanpa daging dan/atau hasil laut (seafood)".

For me, who don't understand the language, this is very unclear. If they understand "vegetarian", then why not just use that word? Does the dash mean that "dan" and "atau" are synonymous (in this context) or something else? Why is the seafood parenthesis included in the quoted phrase? Would I get seafood if I ask for "tanpa daging dan hasil laut", or if I ask for "atau hasil laut"? –LPfi (talk) 16:43, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree the quoted phrase is confusing (almost comically so) for someone who doesn't understand Indonesian. Google Translate tells me that it means "without meat and/or seafood", itself a somewhat unusual and ambiguous phrase in English. If I want to communicate that I eat neither meat nor seafood, I'm not sure whether or how to modify the phrase to get the point across. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:00, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

@LPfi Maybe because sometimes seaweed are categorized as seafood, because they came from the sea, even though it's not a meat. The correct sentence would be "tanpa seafood" (yes, almost everyone use English to call "seafood") or "tanpa daging ikan" ("without fish meat", which sometimes also means "without crabs, shells, and squids"). Veracious (talk) 09:28, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

But if I want vegetarian food (no meat, no poultry, no fish, no crabs etc.)? Can I then ask for "vegetarian" food or might that not be understood? If not, what should I say? If I understand correctly, asking for "tanpa seafood" could get me a beef (I assume tanpa means "without"). As I neither know the grammar nor the individual words, I need a phrase I can use, not only fragments to combine in ways not known to me. (Yes, if "hasil laut" is seafood including seaweed, but "seafood" is non-vegetarian seafood, then I understand the parenthesis, but I still need the complete phrase.) –LPfi (talk) 12:22, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@LPfi Most of restaurant in Indonesia know what vegetarian is. Now for the street food stalls.. to ask for vegetarian menu, you can say "Tolong sayuran aja, jangan ada/pakai daging-dagingan." (vegetable only, no meat, please)

(Sorry for the late reply, i don't put this page on my watchlist) Veracious (talk) 08:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

what about the use of terasi?  g e c k t r e k (Talk) 08:16, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

@Gecktrek "Terasi" is basically a shrimp paste (sometimes made from a fish). I don't think it counted as a vegetarian menu. Veracious (talk) 08:22, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

How do you pronounce the "/"? Please add the advice, including the complete phrase (including any "please" etc.) to the paragraph in question. It is hard to do for me, who would have to just blindly copy your advice. –LPfi (talk) 08:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

@LPfi Hmm, ok, i will try to do a long-phrase. Here are some of my examples:

• "Saya vegetarian, jadi saya ingin pesan makanan yang sayur-sayuran saja. Tolong jangan ada daging-dagingan."
  

(I'm a vegetarian, so I want to order vegetable-only dishes. No meat, please."

• "Apa ada makanan yang sayuran saja? Karena saya vegetarian, jadi saya tidak makan daging."
  

(Is there any vegetable-only dishes? Because I'm a vegetarian, so I don't eat meats.)

• "Apa saya bisa pesan menu sayuran saja? Soalnya saya tidak makan daging."
  

(May I order vegetable-only dishes? Because I don't eat any meat.)

Hope this helps. Veracious (talk) 08:34, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Could something like that be said shorter? If one relies on a phrasebook, those phrases are awkwardly long. Realistically, to use them, one would point at them in the Wikivoyage page on one's screen. Are they the ones you would suggest for that use? Are there any you could learn and tell aloud? –LPfi (talk) 09:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

By the "including any please" I meant phrases that can be used as such, without any additions you would assume I'd add by myself. –LPfi (talk) 09:30, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

use of something like google translate on your phone?  g e c k t r e k (Talk) 10:12, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

@LPfi Can you write the "short phrase" that you desire in English language? Or.. you could've just simply use google translate on your phone, like @Gecktrek said. Veracious (talk) 10:27, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I would say "Do you have any vegetarian food?" I could of course try to use Google translate myself, but I wouldn't know whether I can trust the translation. I don't think we should recommend Google instead of giving specific advice. –LPfi (talk) 14:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

@LPfi Hmm, you could say "Apa ada makanan khusus vegetarian?" (Is there any food for vegetarian?) Veracious (talk) 04:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

That one seems reasonable. Does it have issues with "vegetarian" understood in a way the traveller wouldn't expect, such as your getting fish and shrimps? –LPfi (talk) 07:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

@LPfi That depends on the food seller's knowledge. Most of upsacle restaurant know about vegetarian. But if you are having a feast on street food, you can reassure them by saying "Juga jangan pakai ikan atau udang" (Also, no fish or shrimps) Veracious (talk) 07:15, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

As a Malay-speaker, I'd translate that as "Also, don't use fish or shrimp," which would be a command to the seller. Indonesians wouldn't use "Saya juga tidak makan ikan atau makanan laut" ("I also don't eat fish or seafood")? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Crime section

@M.akbar.raf, Bennylin, Jpatokal: Is the crime in Indonesia really as bad as is described? Maybe things have changed, but I don't recall it being that dangerous. Petty thefts were common, but I didn't find it any less safe than say, India with regard to violent crime. The dog2 (talk) 14:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that the article sounds a bit alarmist, but it's also sending mixed messages: "car jackings, burglaries and armed robberies are relatively common" on one line, "crime remains mostly non-violent, and guns are rare" on the next. I've taken a stab at making it more consistent and less alarmist. Jpatokal (talk) 21:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

@The dog2 That's actually depends on the area. Veracious (talk) 09:40, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we should be a bit more specific in terms of where the crime happens, as Indonesia is a very populous country, so the situation would differ by province. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:01, 24 April 2024 (UTC)