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Thanks for the thanksEdit

Hello! I've been on an extended Wikibreak that I project will last another one to two weeks as I take care of some offwiki business, but I did want to acknowledge and thank you for the recognition for my work on DotM banners. It's a tough job sometimes, but I enjoy it because it's the intersection of a bunch of my interests: travel, writing, and photography (my own and others'). Despite my Wikibreak, I do intend to create banners for Driving in Brazil and Nha Trang before the next OtBP goes live, and I'm looking forward to a new year and a new decade full of banners and Buddha statues!

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:17, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

@AndreCarrotflower: You earned that pudding. Happy new year, and take all the time you need. I appreciate the reply. As for the Nha Trang banner, I've got you covered.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Activity in IglsEdit

Have a look at the Revision history, please. It looks like AC is back in two guises. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:59, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Ikan, while the IP might be AC, the new user name is likely the "pub is closed vandel" (sic), as they also dropped a comment to User:DannyS712, who probably is doing a great job fighting this vandal on different wikis as the vandal never misses an opportunity to post a Wikilove on his talk page. Also, this vandal is nowadays commonly showing up during this time of the day.
One of the new antics of this vandal is restoring previous vandalism, touting and other unwanted edits, for example in Mamallapuram (those particular edits were apparently hidden per our deny recognition policy). Ypsilon (talk) 19:27, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Note the username "Dannyoldpal". Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:37, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
And "Vote to ban Ikan Kekek" or something along those lines a week ago. :P Ypsilon (talk) 19:41, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Yeah. I was offline during that episode, but I saw the aftermath of it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:42, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Well, he's got my vote :P
Thank you both for dealing with whatever happened today. I'm still not comfortable with deleting swathes of travel guide content like that, but don't see what else I could have done besides turning a blind eye to the edits and potentially allowing more far-right stuff in under the radar.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:10, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
We could always selectively restore clearly needed text in the interest of travellers. But we shouldn't let vandals do it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
With altered wording or the same? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:00, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
As you wish. Though it's worth remembering that the entire article was started by and largely the work of this banned user in the first place. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:10, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Indeed, I remember that. But I do feel that TTCF should compel us to disregard the fact of its authorship as long as the content is fine. Might do a fact check on the listings, and if they're clean, reinstate them.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:41, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Second view?Edit


I am not sure if this is a user not knowing this is English Wikivoyage, or a possible tout given the user name.. ShakespeareFan00 (talk)

Religious spam. Thanks, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:30, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Main pageEdit

The coronavirus article is already linked in the new banner. I was adding AndreCarrotflower's homily from Facebook. Ground Zero (talk) 14:28, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes I know, I was testing something out to get rid of that blank space and it didn't work. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:46, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
I was thinking that if an internal link worked, then we could host a copy of the statement on a special page on-wiki, and link that from the main page rather than going to Facebook.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:14, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Vandalism in progressEdit

Take a look at Recent changes. --Ypsilon (talk) 21:51, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorted. Thank you, mate.ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:57, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Merging pagesEdit

Hi, I put some draft expanded guidance on how to merge on that discussion page. I saw nothing extant on whether to blank the source page (the example being Horwich). If it is indeed helpful to do so, please say why, and import the amended draft into the guidance as you see fit. Grahamsands (talk) 17:59, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi Graham. It's basically to save a reader who may hit return from seeing what looks like a normal article, only hidden; a blank page with just a redirect looks more intentional. It also stops someone from coming along and unilaterally deciding to remove the redirect template, causing the articles to "double up" on content. This could easily go unnoticed, whereas the alternatives if a redirect is blank will involve either an undo (in which case you or whoever made the redirect would get a notification), or the person will try to write a new article, which will show up as a large edit on recent changes.
Hope this makes sense. Which discussion page do you mean? Wikivoyage:How to merge two pages? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:54, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
Uh, think I follow that. Yes, it's that page, para "more guidance". Grahamsands (talk) 19:06, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
  Done --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:41, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Spreading smilesEdit

  Barnstar of Good Humor
Thank you for making me smile today. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:30, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Excellent, my first barnstar :) ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:20, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Routebox questionEdit

I wonder about the routebox for E6 in Trondheim with the "main" Östersund/Tromsø. E6 does not go to Östersund, but E14 does (according to the routebox there). Is this slash notation standard when there is a crossroads between cities? –LPfi (talk) 07:04, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

(I have had trouble deciding what to do when a village in the middle of nowhere with one lodging – the present status of which I have been unable to confirm – is an important transfer point, which I'd want to be able to link. I suppose the routebox issue is similar. –LPfi (talk) 07:08, 30 April 2020 (UTC))

I think the relevant guideline is Wikivoyage:Routebox navigation#Termini, merging, and rural junctions:
When a road route crosses another route of equal or higher importance at a place for which we have no article, an unlinked text note reading "Junction" plus a reduced-size icon of the highway in question should be inserted, along with an arrow and space on the appropriate side.
But contrary to your edit summary, E14 starts from Trondheim, according to Wikidata, en-wp, sv-wp nn-wp and no-wp. It seems to follow the same road as E6 to Hell, where it forks off. The routebox in Hell does not mention E14.
LPfi (talk) 07:30, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
Hi, LPfi. I don't know Norway at all, and but always use a map when adding routeboxes, and only the E6 was marked as going to Trondheim. I often also use tend to use Street View of road signs to decide which destinations to put on a routebox when I don't know the area, because it seems to be that the routeboxes should match up with what travellers see when driving, However, I had stopped doing that with Norway, because they seem to use fewer directional signs than most countries, though just now I have found this sign at a junction just eat of Trondheim, to which there are two things of note:
  • The long-distance destination is Narvik, rather than Tromsø, which strikes me as odd, because Narvik is relatively small and unimportant, whereas Tromsø by comparison is an arctic metropolis. I could change the northbound long-distance destination to Narvik on all E6 routeboxes on the Trodheim-Narvik stretch, to match the signs, or stick to the more well-known and tourist-oriented Tromsø. What do you think? Also, by the by, no mention of Östersund, so that can probably go too.
  • To return to your comment, both E6 and E14 appear on the sign, though E14 has a dotted border around it (you'll have to zoom in). Do you know the significance of that? Could it mean "E6 leading to E14", or "E6, multiplexing with E14"?
I didn't even realise we had guidelines for routeboxes, but now I do know about it I still think my way (naming the place where the junction occurs and a destination of the other road) is better than just "junction E14" at an unspecified point along the road. But E14 should definitely have its own routebox at Stjørdal (in the outer circle of Hell), for sure.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:55, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
My knowledge on Norway is quite weak (I have never been responsible for driving or navigation there), but in Finland the dotted border indeed means "leading to". I don't know whether Narvik or Tromsø makes more sense, but Tromsø is far away and Narvik has E10 to Sweden. Although Narvik is quite small, I am sure any Scandinavian knows it, and any Norwegian would know that you need to go via there to reach Tromsø (unless there is some ferry connection out in the archipelago). You say that the sign was east of Trondheim; is it possible that E14 from Trondheim just had not yet joined E6 from the south? (but that would probably mean E14 were synonymous with road 706, and I think that is not what they do in Norway) So no, I don't know what should be done. The way to mark junctions should probably be discussed at the guideline talk page. –LPfi (talk) 11:25, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
Right then, I'll replace Tromsø with Narvik.
The sign is at the junction of E6 and 706, which seems the most likely point the E14 would join if it were coming from Trondheim, though it may not be. Perhaps the E14 just starts on the E6 at the same junction, or else it starts in Stjørdal, where the routes deviate. The dotted line probably means the same as in Finland, but even if it doesn't, the E14 at best shares the same tarmac as the E6 as far as Stjørdal, so a separate routebox in Trondheim would be a bit pointless.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:46, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps E14 officially starts from Trondheim (joint stretch with E6 to Stjørdalshalsen), but that does not really matter because E6 is the reference. Traffic towards Östersund and Sweden will leave E6 at Stjørdalshalsen and follow the E14 signs. Erik den yngre (talk) 15:15, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Narvik is not a major tourist destination (despite the great ski slopes), but an important junction. The main towns of the north are in Bodø and Tromsø, but these towns are not directly on the E6. The E6 is the key road in Norway, and whereever you drive south-north the question is "will you be driving the E6?". Narvik is however too far from Trondheim (some 15 hours driving), Mo i Rana, the main town south of Saltfjellet pass, makes more sense. Mo i Rana is also connected to Sweden by E12 and is the last chance to turn west for the Helgeland coastal road. Erik den yngre (talk) 14:39, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I see what you mean; it's a long way, some 900 km, and Mo i Rana is roughly at the half-way mark. Still, Narvik is the town drivers will see on the road signs. If our routeboxes say Mo i Rana and all drivers can see is signs to Narvik, there's potential for confusion, isn't there? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:03, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
Good point. Road authorities say that the far destination on the sign should in principle not be more than 1 days drive (6-8 hours), seems they break their own rules. In Norway there is usually no point in driving on satnav, drivers just need to know road number and general direction. Erik den yngre (talk) 21:16, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

"The Roman Republic"Edit

  • Hi dude. For the record, throughout Roman Empire I cared to capitalize both words "Republic" and "Empire" because they belong in their respective political entity's proper name. However, I found your last edit to be stylistically sound and sensible. Plus, right now I'm in the mood of not sparing words to say I liked it. Ibaman (talk) 11:22, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
Salve! That makes sense. Thanks for the explainer, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:35, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Syracuse, New York IP editorEdit

Hi there. Regarding that anonymous IP editor who called Ikan Kekek a "jerk", I hope you understand that, by unblocking him provisionally, I did not in any way intend to question your judgment vis-à-vis the original block. Broadly speaking, I of course agree with you that there's no place here for name-calling or for the type of tone that characterized the user's earlier edits. What lay behind my decision to give him another chance was a combination of three factors: 1) the fact that he seemed to be beginning to strike a more constructive tone in his comment at Talk:Syracuse (New York)#The South Side, 2) the fact that, leaving the problems with his tone aside, the substance of his comments actually rings quite true, and 3) the fact that here we have someone with local knowledge that may not be immediately obvious to visitors who's offering a depth of perspective that's not often seen on Wikivoyage, a resource we don't often get the opportunity to take advantage of. Bearing that balance in mind, I think it's fair to allow the user a certain limited span of time to respond to the comments on the talk page - a day or two, I'd say - but if there is no response (or, obviously, in the case of any response that is insulting or snarky), the block should be re-instituted. What do you think? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:16, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi. I think you probably won't get a response, constructive or otherwise, given the IP's last act was to delete one of the good sections they added. But I like to be proven wrong, and have no problem with your plan.ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:04, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
I just want to say, nothing personal on my part, and I'm sorry if I was in the wrong, but to me, his initial edits made it seem like a joke article to me. Considering, for example, that you could easily visit Syracuse intentionally to check out Syracuse University or see an Orangemen game, you didn't probably go there by accident. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:22, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons!' comment, I was under the impression that the "jerk" remark came first and the talk page message later; I'm seeing now that I had it backwards. That does change things. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:28, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: I don't think you were in the wrong—clearly the IP user was taking the snarky jokes too far. But I also support User:AndreCarrotflower's effort to find the diamond in the rough. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:54, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Just Block MeEdit

I clearly do not know how Wikivoyage works. Please block me, I don’t want to keep getting reverted and have articles like this be protected so fellow IP editors can’t edit. Block me for 24 hours for a 3RR violation per this. I am sick and tired of editors reverting me, and honestly, just block me for 24 hours (or longer if you wish) so I can come back compentent. 2600:387:5:803:0:0:0:8F 17:31, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm not going to block you for making a mistake (or even several mistakes). We expect new editors to make mistakes, that's how you learn and get better. But when you're in a dispute with another editor, it's best to talk rather than carry on editing. In your case, this would be easier if you were using a fixed IP address (a shorter one that just contains numbers) or if you set up an account.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:43, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
I added an initial block because the request seemed reasonable enough to me. If, TT, you'd like to unblock the user, I understand and I won't re-apply the 24-hour block. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:45, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Never mind, it's done now. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:13, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Via MariaEdit

Hi! Can you see it: Via Maria?... is it okay for beginning? I'm still trying to work on it in the future... I based it on the Way of St. James... I welcome all criticism! Fauvirt (talk) 15:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

@Fauvirt: Thanks for starting this itinerary. It is currently marked as “outline” as it needs a 7:1 ratio cropped pagebanner, and the layout of the route. But I can help with all of that, and so can TT. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:14, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
@SelfieCity: Thank you for helping! Fauvirt (talk) 15:22, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
You're welcome! I've cropped the pagebanner so it now uses the correct 7:1 ratio. Let me know if there's another pagebanner you would prefer. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:24, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I can see it; it's a good start! I must confess I've never heard of the route, and couldn't find much information about it online in English, so this could be a very valuable article. About the name, is there a reason to prefer the Latin Via Maria than the English Way of Mary? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:25, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Yes, but I don't know if that's right here. I chose the Latin name (Via Maria/Mariae) because Austria and Romania use it uniformly... and I also saw it used in a Hungarian publication. But I’m not sure if that’s okay. And thank you for your help too! Fauvirt (talk) 15:59, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
I've added a redirect from Way of Mary to Via Maria, so those who type "Way of Mary" into search will be redirected to the correct article. Thanks for providing the sources for that name, which I think make it the w:WP:COMMONNAME (we don't have a policy on common name, as far as I know). --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:06, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanations.Wikivoyage: Naming conventions is our policy, and the relevant bit is "For destinations where multiple names or spellings are in use and there isn't an obviously correct English name, the title should be the most commonly-used name in the local language." This itinerary obviously crosses numerous countries, so there isn't one single local name; in which case Via Maria, as used in at least three countries, works well. The Via x format should also be familiar to most travellers who know something of pilgrimages and European history, so I'm happy.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:56, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
  Fauvirt (talk) 17:28, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Question: if I write this: "addition to traditional tourist signs and colors, supplemented by symbols of the branches leading to the sealing place and the sacred place and the special viola (purple) color of Mary Road can appear on pilgrimage routes.", it is enough? Or it is better, if I add this too (but to long for me): "addition to traditional tourist signs (horizontal lane for main roads, cross for connecting roads, triangle for vertices or viewpoints, circle for fountain, square for accommodation, omega for cave, L for ruin and circular walkway signs), supplemented by symbols of the branches leading to the sealing and sacred places. The colors (the highest priority and the best known is the blue signal, followed by the red, then the yellow and the green) are also the same, with the special viola (purple) color of Mary Road, which may appear on the pilgrimage routes."? Fauvirt (talk) 17:28, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

The first one is better, but I'm not sure that it's a sentence. I would write something like "In addition to the traditional tourist signs, the Via Maria is sometimes waymarked by special purple signs. Branches leading to the sealing and sacred places have their own symbols." What is a sealing place?
If all those symbols described are applicable to this route, you could put them in a bulleted list rather than a sentence, which is too long, I agree. So:
  • Main road - horizontal line
  • Connecting roads - cross
  • Viewpoint or steep climb - triangle
Or, if you have photos or can take some (if it's safe to go outside in Hungary), we could have a picture gallery of the symbols like the one at Driving in Europe#Rules of the road. It's difficult to describe symbols in a way that everyone can understand (for instance, "cross" could mean an X, or a plus sign +, or something more like a Christian cross), so pictures are often better.
Does that help you? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:07, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Thank you! Hmm... if so: "In addition to the traditional tourist signs colors, the Via Maria on pilgrimage routes is waymarked by special purple signs. Branches leading to the sealing and sacred places have their own symbols." ?
Sealing place I mean where you get the stamps... not good?...
Hike route signs in Hungary - I ask one of the organizers (I have already contacted him, but because of Pentecost, he asked for time). If yes, let's figure out what to do. (here is a good summary if you are interested) Fauvirt (talk) 19:50, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure the place where you get your book stamped has a name in English, but I have never been on a pilgrimage. This is the official page about stamps on the Spanish Post Office's portal for pilgrims on the Way of Saint James, and they just say to collect your stamps at the post office. You can also get stamped at hostels, churches, tourist offices etc. I don't think "sealing place" is right though; "sealing" is when you hunt seals (the mammal) for their fur and blubber, so a "sealing place" would be a beach, I guess :) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:42, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Finally - for now - I wrote that: "Trails leading to sacred locations or to places where documents can be sealed/stamped have their own, additional trail marks", then if anyone knows better, can rewrite it (or I hope so ;o) ) ... do you think i should delete the word "sealed"? Fauvirt (talk) 09:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
I think what you've got is okay. Keep up the good work 👍 --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Tangent on naming guidelines: User:SelfieCity, what you were looking for is WV:Naming conventions. Carry on! Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:08, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Thanks! --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:10, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

@SelfieCity: I correct myself: Via Maria is an another pilgrimage in the German-speaking areas (from Altötting to Mariazell)... Fauvirt (talk) 19:49, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

@SelfieCity, ThunderingTyphoons!: Can I integrate OpenStreetMap to the pages?... I founded the section maps: ...Mária út M01-19 Zsámbék - Telki - Máriaremete (1715044), Mária út M01-20 (Máriaremete - Makkosmária - Budapest, Szent Anna-rét) (2110962), Mária út M01-21 Budapest, Szent Anna-rét - Vár - Rákosszentmihály (2110961), Mária út M01-22 Budapest-Rákosszentmihály - Máriabesnyő (3528171) ... - can these be somehow brought together? —The preceding comment was added by Fauvirt (talkcontribs)

That's not really my expertise, mate. Hopefully, Selfie City can help you; if not, I suggest posting in the Travellers' pub. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:21, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
All right and thanks for the help so far! Fauvirt (talk) 12:30, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure, actually, as my knowledge of dynamic maps isn't as good as some others. @Shaundd: Perhaps you know how this could be incorporated into the article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:20, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
@Fauvirt: This may be what you're looking for: Template:Mapshape#OSM wikidata tags. In short, OSM relations can be included by linking them with Wikidata. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
@Mx. Granger: oh, thank you! I found more routes (here collected) if more than one property can be entered I think it can work! *hope* Fauvirt (talk) 14:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
ah, noooo "single value constraint" :o( Fauvirt (talk) 14:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
I see there's already links between OSM (relations for the M01 setion and M02 section) and the Wikidata page (Q1212209). So, including {{mapshape|wikidata=Q1212209|type=geoline}} should make the trail appear on the dynamic map... but it doesn't. Looking at OSM, the trail doesn't appear on the map of the relation that Wikidata links to, so maybe there's an error on the OSM side? Another thing is the Wikidata page lists two OSM relations so perhaps that confuses the {{mapshape}} template? I'm afraid I don't have much in the way of solutions. -Shaundd (talk) 15:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
@Shaundd: Thank you! I already wrote to Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub‎#‎OpenStreetMap and on Hungarian hu:Wikipédia:Kocsmafal (egyéb)#OpenStreetMap "szakértő" kerestetik... maybe ... (me, the problematic beginner ...) Fauvirt (talk) 15:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC)


  • Hey TT, just for the record, I always think "kilometers" and "kilometres" are too long and ugly words for a travel guide (and prone for edit warring). I always edit these to "km" and/or use the template. Asking with the best humor, am I being too nitpicky again? Ibaman (talk) 16:06, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Hi. No, you're not; I agree with you. I made several changes in my edit across that massive Go next section, but there was an edit conflict with you, so I heroically and selflessly copied and pasted my edits over the top of yours 😏 All the "kilometres" should be gone now, though... ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Gary AirportEdit

I made a couple edits to Chicago and so did you. But then, in this revision, you revered it. English Wikipedia is not always right. In that case you still need to mention Rockford Airport. If it is due to the current pandemic then that will end eventually(in winter/spring 2021)and flights will resume. Also, according to the MTA(at least as of Nov. 2014)LaGuardia is considered a NYC Airport. I mean it’s complicated, and there is 3 airports-LaGuardia, JFK, and Newark according to this link, but still. I feel like I have lost my voice in Wikivoyage. I am taking a momentary break. Thank you. My break begins one minute after 14:50, 1 June 2020 (UTC) and this was made by on behalf of the entire range of 2600:387:5:800::/61. 14:50, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is right on this occasion, though, isn't it? Gary Airport is listed on our Gary page as being for general aviation. As for the rest of your comment, I'm not sure what you're getting at. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:37, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons!:I am not sure what exactly you are saying, but this is my last message. TTYL(in this case the “later is in February”. Email me at guttmana9@icloud.com if you have questions. The IPv4 IP address I used was not supposed to be. It was supposed to be this IPv6. My last message was added by at 16:33, 1 June 2020 (UTC). Thank you. 16:33, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Okay, take care.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:49, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Star articlesEdit

Following the discussion at Wikivoyage:Star nominations, I've upgraded York to star status. Would you be interested in writing the lede at Wikivoyage:Star articles? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:15, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you, mate. I think I'll just use the first paragraph of the article's lede; if someone wants to improve on that, they can.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:59, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Greek restaurant in Baker, CaliforniaEdit

Thanks for taking the time to find out the real situation! Why would it be confusing to write "temporarily closed due to COVID-19 pandemic"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:50, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

That wouldn't be as confusing but (a) experience has taught that it might not get updated for an embarrassingly long period after the pandemic is over (b) a majority of our listings are or have been closed due to the pandemic, but we haven't put notes on all of them. How many restaurants are or were closed in your part of Manhattan; most or all of them, right? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:58, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
I did some research and found that a restaurant with the same name in Ohio was permanently closed and I thought the two might have been confused somehow. But apparently you guys have already realized what the actual confusion was about. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:52, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
For whatever reason, "The Mad Greek" seems to be a common name for Greek restaurants in the anglosphere. Maybe it's self-awareness...--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:19, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Many restaurants in New York closed temporarily during this period and some are still closed, but some stayed open for takeout and in some cases, delivery, while others reopened more recently. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:38, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Same here. I guess that's been a fairly universal experience in most countries.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:45, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
In Florida a shorter lockdown has made it necessary for restaurants to open early to give them a chance to compete with other restaurants that are also open, but unfortunately for them a group of early tropical storms and thunderstorms have kept many people indoors. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 11:31, 9 June 2020 (UTC)


Good joke! Have fun in your own reality. Best greetings from --Bubo 19:46, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Bubo bubo: It's not "my" reality - I've never edited that article before - and Wikivoyage is not a joke to me. If you read the article, you'll see that Soest is breadcrumbed under that region. If that's not correct, I'd rather it was changed. Which region of North Rhine Westphalia should it be under, in your opinion? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:53, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
OK, no offense. --Bubo 20:12, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

"Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty"Edit

Many rural areas of England seem to have this title, such as Mendips. Would these be considered parks or rural areas, do you think? It's sometimes difficult to determine the difference between rural areas and parks and this is a good example.

If these areas have "staging areas" — which may be an American name, and means parking, restroom, picnic benches, etc. — and hiking trails (public footpaths included, I guess), I would consider them parks, but if "Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty" is a designation for environmental reasons rather than with the goal of creating recreation areas, these areas of outstanding natural beauty could be called rural areas.

--Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:11, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Hmm. They could be either, really. In the UK, "AONB" and "national park" are conservation designations, designed to stop certain kinds of development within the area's boundaries. AONBs have less strict development rules is all, because I guess on the sliding scale of landscapes worth preserving, they're second-tier. But there are still towns, villages and farms in every AONB and national park; they're not like the wilderness areas of the U.S. with no human residents, entry fees, restricted access etc. There's nothing like that in the UK. Thus, "staging areas", or what you will, aren't needed because there are pubs, cafés and restaurants! Still, they are nationally-recognised beauty spots, and some like the Cotswolds are world-famous for tourism. All have extensive public footpaths and bridleways (trails for walkers, bicycles and horses, but not motor vehicles), but that's nothing special in the UK, as these exist in every city, town and area of countryside.
In Wikivoyage terms, designating AONBs as parks might make more sense, because most of them will have city articles under them; my understanding of rural area articles is that they're on the same level as city articles, and which they replace in function.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
I've understood park articles should always be at the bottom of the hierarchy, just like cities? If the areas include cities big enough to have their own articles, I think they should be classified as region articles. Ypsilon (talk) 17:10, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Okay, I'll leave AONB regions as park type articles rather than rural areas. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:16, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
@Ypsilon: I don't know whether you're right about park articles or not, but the UK articles in question would have to be extraregions, if not parks or rural areas.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Maybe best to decide it on a case by case basis. Ypsilon (talk) 19:46, 23 June 2020 (UTC)


Hi dude. The cottage listing is really an aggregator, and about 10 km away at other village, which I felt better removed. Check out the article's history; the IP tried to insert several things from different villages here. Just for the record. Ibaman (talk) 20:55, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Hiya. I can see the history, which was certainly counterproductive, possibly caused by newbie error, but can't see any touting. This doesn't look like an aggregator to me, but rather a small complex of holiday cottages on the same site. Perhaps it shouldn't be listed in Iamia if there's a more appropriate article, but where else would be better? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:55, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Reply to your emailEdit

If that’s the case, then I won’t take any further action. The lack of edit summaries and travel relevant content, like listings, were my main concerns, and I can mention edit summaries on the editor’s talk page. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:35, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Fine. I must admit, I didn't have time to scrutinise the person's whole edit history; I just looked at the diffs you sent.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:35, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
I ended up leaving a welcome message and mentioned the edit summary issue.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:52, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
That's fair enough. I know that your time on WV is limited (and so is mine — the lockdown has given me more time than usual) and I'm definitely not advocating that we should block or even warn this user for edits that are made in mostly, if not all good faith. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:57, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Telling people to wash their handsEdit

Transiting at the Taipei airport in late march, the day that Taiwan closed its borders to foreigners, and two days before Vietnam Airlines cancelled all international flights, I was amazed to see men leaving the toilets without washing their hands. As much as I'd like to live in a world where it isn't necessary to remind people to wash their hands, I don't think we live in that world. Ground Zero (talk) 13:53, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

I know what you mean, but those same people aren't suddenly going to wash their hands because we tell them to. Just like some people will never use protection when having sex, and others carry on smoking 50 a day regardless of the gruesome pictures on the packet.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:31, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Readers don't follow all of our advice to the letter? I am shocked! We're so sensible though. (It's not a big deal for me. We can leave it out.) Ground Zero (talk) 17:03, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

London toursEdit

I see you deleted Tour of London Museums by User:Belder International Travel as "no useful content or test". On one hand the itinerary title suggests a "personal itinerary" and the user name suggests it would be touting of own tours, but on the other one cannot judge the contents of a less-than-a-day old outline and one should not treat somebody open on who they are worse than if they were silent on it.

I think we should give quite a thorough explanation on the user talk page, not just have the page disappear with a less suitable standard comment. Is there something I did not see or something in our guidelines or practice I am not aware of?

--LPfi (talk) 11:58, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi. There's nothing more to it than what you understand, but there was literally no content at all. They created the page, listed it as an itinerary, and left. I don't think someone who starts a page but can't be bothered to even write a first sentence deserves a "thorough explanation" for why it gets deleted. Minimum input, minimum output. Yes, I could have left it a couple of days to see if the user would come back, but then the onus is on me to remember to check up on it at a later date, when frankly I've got better things to do. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:29, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, a general problem. A "remind me after three days" button would be very useful. --LPfi (talk) 13:03, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
It certainly would. For something more important, I'd set a calendar reminder on my phone.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:35, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
@LPfi: It seems I was wrong about the user's intentions. I'll learn my lesson and hang back to see how the article develops, though it looks to me like a personal itinerary that will just end up duplicating content found in London's district articles.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:56, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
  • Wow, that article is textbook toutism, pure propaganda of a private operator. "Our tour starts (...)" and promotional shit and such. It shall not stand. Ibaman (talk) 20:02, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Wait, Ibaman. I googled the username out of interest and there doesn't seem to be a tour operator by that name. If it is touting, they're not doing so under their business name.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough. I copyedited the annoying 1st person prose bits out of it. Ibaman (talk) 20:11, 25 July 2020 (UTC)


Hi, I saw you reverted my edit to the Bristol routebox and added a 6th entry to the routebox. However since Bristol only has ~460k inhabitants, doing so violates the routebox policy which states that "destinations under 1 million people should generally not exceed 5 listings". So my motivation for replacing one of the existing listings was to avoid violating policy. 17:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I see, thanks for explaining. That's a very odd policy, which I'll admit I wasn't aware of and will advocate removing. There are plenty of cities (certainly in the UK) which exceed that limit.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
I posted on Wikivoyage talk:Routebox navigation, if you'd like to comment. Regards, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
It was not my intent to stir up trouble or change existing policies, I only wanted to explain why I opted to replace rather than add an entry. But since we're anyway on that topic: the listing order doesn't specify the ordering of NCN entries, so do you add them chronologically to the list or just insert them at random? 19:53, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Hey, it's no trouble at all. Changing policy through community discussion is not a big deal on Wikivoyage, and happens all the time. You're not expected to take part in that discussion (although you're more than welcome to) and if anything I'm glad that attention has been drawn to that line in the policy.
Most logical would be to put the NCN boxes in numerical order, lowest number first, though really any order that you think works is better than a random jumble. Have a good night, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:15, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Continued experimenting this morning and added the most important connections to the Bristol routebox. 2 questions you might be able to help with:
  1. how do I sort the entries so that the rail connections are on top (as per policy page)?
  2. why does the GWR logo display correctly but the CrossCountry logo doesn't? —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)
Yes, I can answer those questions:
  1. Two ways to do this. One option is to create a new routebox template for the railways and place it above the existing one. This leads to two separate boxes, which leads to the kinda clunky repetition of "Routes through (city)", but helps to separate longer lists, as in London/City of London. The other option, to keep them all in one box, is easy but long-winded: change the numbers around so that the boxes that start with image1=, image2=, image3= are the railways, image=4 through to image=8 are the roads, and image=9 is the cycle path. Every number for a single entry needs to match, otherwise the box will glitch.
  2. The reason for this is that Greater west railw logo.svg is on Wikimedia Commons, whereas File:CrossCountryTrains.svg is uploaded locally to Wikipedia, due to copyright restrictions. There is quite a high probability that the GWR logo will be deleted from Commons in the future due to being copyvio. I note it is also very dark against the background, and not easy to see. My favoured option with GB railways is to use the copyright-free British Rail arrow logo   for all services, which stands out well and is familiar to all rail travellers in Britain. If you need to specify the train operator, you can always add an additional argument to the routebox wikicode: caption1=(name of operator); the name will then appear in a balloon when you mouse over the logo.
Hopefully this is all understandable. Regards, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:35, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the input, I fixed the icons in the Bristol article and sorted the entries by changing the indices. Is there a page with tips and tricks where this kind of guidelines (or rules of thumb) are summarised? Might be useful to other users as well to know where to find the British Rail logo on Commons. 13:20, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
They're looking good; thanks for doing them! I'm not aware of a routebox help page beyond the one you know about already.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:18, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

An award for you!Edit

  The Wikivoyage Barncompass
I just read the Stratford-upon-Avon article, and the quotes are a great touch. What a delightful theme for that article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:04, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
Hey @Mx. Granger: I'm glad you liked it :) Thank you for the barncompass.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:07, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
My congratulations as well. A really nice touch for the hometown of "an upstart Crow, beautified with our feathers" (Robert Greene). Ground Zero (talk) 16:03, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

On footEdit

You said: "We normally use 'On foot', both on WV and in English generally". I don't know about English usage, but Wikivoyage:Article skeleton templates/Sections#Get in says "By foot". I imagined we use "By" for consistency. If we do not, the heading should be changed there and at possible other places. –LPfi (talk) 10:09, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi. I've just looked at about 15 huge city articles (mostly capitals, all major metropolises), and of the ones which have a walking section, there isn't consistency, though 'On foot' seems to be a majority:
  • "By foot": London, Tokyo, Sydney
  • "On foot": Paris, Barcelona, New York City, Buenos Aires, Singapore, Rome, Montreal, Kuala Lumpur.
Perhaps this is better as a discussion on Wikivoyage talk:Article skeleton templates/Sections, where indeed it was already discussed in 2014.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:25, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Question about a revertEdit

Hi ThunderingTyphoons!, why did you revert these edits[1][2]? To me they looked like someone adding a good restaurant listing (admittedly with a couple of typos) and removing several closed listings. Looking online, I can't find any indication that any of the deleted listings still exist. Am I missing something? —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Hello, mate.
To me, it looked like someone removed some listings without comment, and added a semi-touty ("the best in town") listing in their place. It did occur to me to check whether those places were still open or not, but I decided I couldn't be bothered because all it would have taken was a two-word edit summary - "all closed" - from the original editor. I shouldn't have to guess someone's intention.
There has been quite a lot of attempted touting today, but if you think I've been too harsh on this occasion, then go ahead and revert, I won't cry about it.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:36, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks. I agree it would have been better for them to use an edit summary, but of course a new user may not know that that's expected of them. —Granger (talk · contribs) 05:13, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

What's up with this edit?Edit

What's wrong with it? It's not vandalism or anything, is it? I will not revert your edit, but I'm just kinda curious. Thanks, --Prahlad balaji (talk) 17:21, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

That is a very long-term vandal who we call Telstra (after the internet provider (s)he uses or used). For something like 10 years now, he or she has been adding useless or unreliable content to articles all over Wikivoyage on an almost daily basis. Individual edits certainly don't look harmful, but when you look at the entire edit history, made by countless burner accounts, you see thousands of red links, empty new articles, and non-sequitur or incorrect sentences. If they weren't reverted on sight as they are, would litter almost every article on Wikivoyage. When you have spent literally years handling a certain vandal, you get pretty good at identifying them on sight based on their tells; for the edit in question, the addition of a redlink by a brand new account with that type of username (surname and numbers) were enough to tell me that this was the Telstra vandal. Strictly speaking, I should have blocked the account, but since it will only be used once (the next edit will be with a new account), there's not much point.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:44, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation. --Prahlad balaji (talk) 17:55, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
You're welcome. Happy to be of use.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:02, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Possible telstra sockEdit

Does this look like one? Thanks, --Prahlad balaji (talk) 18:13, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Possibly, but there are no contributions yet.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:21, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank youEdit

Hi, ThunderingTyphoons! Thank you very much for help! Bonzg (talk) 12:02, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Reverting IP edits by

Care to explain those rollbacks? The edits appear non malicious to me...Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:25, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

  • It's block evasion by Artic Cynda, that's what it is. Ibaman (talk) 12:47, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Precisely that.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:21, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
I see. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:15, 1 October 2020 (UTC)


I don't understand, why would someone want to be a part of that other site instead of this one, especially after he made all those contributions here? He seemed like an expert on Indonesia. Lazarus1255 (talk) 19:33, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi. He hasn't made any contributions here. When Wikivoyage forked from Wikitravel, everything that was on Wikitravel at the time of the fork (late 2012) was copied onto the Wikivoyage servers. That included every travel guide article, every user page and every user's contribution history prior to the fork. Users who took part in the fork mostly migrated their accounts over here, but users who either chose to stay behind or became inactive prior to the fork didn't migrate their accounts. However, because our copyleft licence requires us to credit every contributor to an article, all those who edited Wikitravel from its inception until 2012 had their user pages and contribution history copied to Wikivoyage, regardless of whether the person decided to move to Wikivoyage. All of these pages are marked as "User:(WT-en)" to show us that these are not active accounts, merely records of accounts that, by virtue of contributing to Wikitravel prior to the fork, have made some contribution to Wikivoyage's history. Some of their edits are doubtlessly still live, even in 2020, although this will become less and less likely over time. I hope this makes more sense? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:02, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
Oh, I see now. Thanks! That really fills in the gaps. Well, that's good Wikivoyage was able to make use of those contributions that had been made before anyway. Thank you for explaining it all to me. Lazarus1255 (talk) 23:03, 6 October 2020 (UTC)


it would be good to know what that entails. There are issues in the current state of the project on english wikipedia tasmania that are very problematic - so as long as there is no necessary connection to some recent editing egnlish wikipedia wise - I am very interested, as the voyage part of life is sadly neglected this last few years... You are kind to offer, I just need to get a handle in being back in the saddle and making sure the boots are on the right way and the stirrupsareontheright way around, and I can make the distiction between the camel head from the camel tail... shukran, salaam and the rest...JarrahTree (talk) 23:54, 22 October 2020 (UTC)


Your insights were really valuable, dude, I stand obliged for your enlightening help. I won't ignore those features again. Very good heads-up. High-five to ya Ibaman (talk) 22:12, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Glad you found it helpful :) ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:23, 24 October 2020 (UTC)


Definitely accidental. Thanks for fixing it. Ground Zero (talk) 22:00, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Moving Along a Star ArticleEdit

Howdy! After 2 years in limbo I decided to plunge forward and make the Farnborough article a star. I've done all the steps (save editing the star map image because I don't have the assets or knowhow) however I am unable to remove the discussion from the star nominations page. The spambot believes that I am blanking. Which, I mean, fair enough lol. Just a heads up that the content needs removing still as I am unable to do it! SpartanFishy (talk) 19:03, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Funny joke I tried publishing one last time after starting this discussion and it went through. False alarm! SpartanFishy (talk) 19:21, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
Nice one, and thank you for doing the honours :) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:26, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
I'd believe to update the map, you'd have to download it, plop a new star in Farnborough's location using some graphics software (ideally something fancy, but even Powerpoint would be capable of this), then reupload the new map to Commons. Seems simple enough, but quite often there are unforeseen issues that make simple jobs much more complicated; for this, I'd imagine getting the new star symbol to look enough like the others that you don't have to change the whole lot could be a challenge. Not something I'd blame you for skipping! All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:35, 23 November 2020 (UTC)