User talk:Ibaman

Hello, Ibaman! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here. Curtaintoad (user · talk · contribs) 13:39, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Pratyeka

Hi, I have reverted a comment made by another user which seemed purely abusive and nonconstructive. If you would like to restore it, by all means feel free. Your contributions are valued here. I recommend ignoring this particular user, as others will deal with him. --Peter ^Talk 19:17, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Dynamic maps, FYI

Hi!

I noticed you've added dynamic maps to Moscow and St.Petersburg per our recent discussion. In the case you worry about the error showing up instead of the map it's not because you've set some parameters wrong (they're correct). :) It's just a server that likes giving our technical colleagues a headache once a week. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:34, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks my friend! I was starting to worry. Good to know about that. :) Ibaman (talk) 18:47, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Leaving St. Pete

Previous on Talk:Saint_Petersburg/Center

About 'leaving Center St Pete': I had a discuss about 'Center St Pete' future (how splitting and so)... and its ended with ...stop it.... I did it. I stopped.

Anyway. Same happened in Central Moscow (resulted a torso).

And about South Pete: Planned to come back! My problem is the Russian vers. so short... maybe first that need to expanding Globetrotter19 (talk) 14:12, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Admin?

Ibaman, I don't remember if I ever brought up before the idea that you might want to become an admin. You do a lot of valuable work across the site, and since some of it involves reversion, you might enjoy having tools like a 1-click rollback of a string of edits and the ability to block spammers and persistent vandals. If you have any interest in having a few more tools at your disposal, just say the word and I'll nominate you.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:02, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

• "The Word"! When do I start?? :D Ibaman (talk) 12:39, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Not so fast. :-) You have to be nominated, and there's no guarantee you'd be confirmed. One quick question: What IP(s) have you been using? You should be credited in the nomination with your IP contributions as well as your Ibaman contributions. Also, I remember that when I was nominated, it was suggested that I write something on my user page, so you might want to do that, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:38, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

All right, I'll work on my user page. I have seldom used IPs other than 200.252.135.78 and the amount of work I made under other IPs is negligible. This will simplify things. Ibaman (talk) 12:29, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

What's the whole IP address? I have a very long day ahead of me, after a sleepless night, so it may be a while before I type up the nomination. Enjoy your day!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:53, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• This will be 200.252.135.78 Enjoy you day too! Geetings from sunny and cozy Brasília at 10am. Ibaman (talk) 13:33, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh, for some reason, not the entire IP was showing up for me this morning. Here's the thread nominating you. Be prepared to address questions others may have.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:46, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Administrator nomination

Per Wikivoyage:Administrator nominations/Archives#User:Ibaman I've flipped the bits and you should see several new buttons when you next login. See Wikivoyage:Administrators' handbook for guidance on using the new functionality. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:19, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

User:Ikan Kekek

Before you left that shouting comment on my talk page, I had no idea that Ikan was an administrator for Wikivoyage. Had I known that, I would've taken his criticism lightly. Not to be pushy, but I'm still kind of new here, and have a lot to learn. Can you ease up on me just a tad please? Donny (talk) 12:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Segway rental in Prague

Hi, Ibaman. I'm not sure what was wrong with this edit. It doesn't seem promotional, on the face of it. Is it that a Segway rental doesn't seem important enough to mention? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• I'm under the impression that this Segway tour's case falls under Tour, as do most walking tours that are added in bigger cities... if you say it's OK to leave it in, let's leave it in then. Ibaman (talk) 11:37, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

It's described as a Segway rental, not a Segway tour, it lacks a link, and actually, Segway tours turn out to count as "value added" like bike tours (I learned this in a discussion some time ago). Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:11, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Votes for deletion

Hello Ibaman. I saw you simply deleted Taipan, despite the discussion on Wikivoyage:Votes_for_deletion. That's not in line with our deletion procedure, so I restored it. When a vfd-template is added to a page, please follow the procedure as explained on that discussion page. Before deleting other pages, please read the deletion policy and note the difference between a vote for deletion nomination and a speedy deletion rationale. Particularly, keep in mind that we don't delete real places; we redirect them. If you merge information, it's best to link the original article in the edit summary and not to delete the article but create a redirect. This saves the history and thus covers any attribution issues. If you have any questions, just ask. Thanks, JuliasTravels (talk) 09:42, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

• sorry for the blunder. I will pay attention to the procedures. Ibaman (talk) 12:23, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

No worries, and thanks! JuliasTravels (talk) 19:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

disambiguation needed

Shahbazpur disambiguation needed, and this is a habitation than Shahbazpur in India, Pakistan. thanks! Minhaz.de (talk) 13:48, 05 Oct 2015 (UTC)

Myanmar

Hi ! Have you ever been to Myanmar?YLNSMN (talk) 17:28, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

• No, never; but I've been on Wikivoyage for quite a while. :) Ibaman (talk) 17:42, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
• Hello, Ibaman ;How should I do to nominate the Yangon for in becoming a star? Help? Yanlinnnaung (talk) 16:23, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Please read Wikivoyage:Article status, Wikivoyage:Consensus, and last but not least, Wikivoyage:Manual_of_style; You might have already read that your user page is very out of line according to Tone and Don't tout. Please consider removing references to your own work as tourist guide. Best wishes Ibaman (talk) 16:34, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks so much for your suggestion! Yanlinnnaung (talk) 17:42, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

enquiry

	enquiry
	hello ibaman, please let me know why the edit uder "do" category on the wikivoyage page of puri was reverted. i have visited that place and whatever i edit was informative. please share where i lacked explaining it. Abhewday (talk) 08:35, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

• About the additions in the Do section, they are not in accordance to our policy of avoiding " vague, flowery, and effusive language". As for the Sleep additions, the only contact provided was the email address "ardhendu.sekhar1956@gmail.com" for both of them. This characterizes toutism, and is stongly discouraged in Wikivoyage. In short, these are the reasonsfor the revert. Ibaman (talk) 12:01, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Length of block

Hello, my friend. Do I understand correctly that User:Turbo8000's first block is 1 week long? Isn't the first block supposed to be no longer than 3 days and agreed upon or at least explained at Wikivoyage:User ban nominations? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:29, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

• Sorry for overlooking that. I haven't reread the policy pages as often as I should. The block has been reset for 3 days. Ibaman (talk) 17:42, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

No problem. Please also post to Wikivoyage:User ban nominations, explaining the reasons for the block to whomever hasn't been following Talk:Peru and other places where problems have cropped up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:58, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Metro Atlanta reversion

Ibaman, I really don't understand this edit. It is very unusual to revert contributions to talk pages. And in this instance, a quick search of the article under "Athens" would have turned up a result. The rest of us are here to offer advice before you take action on stuff like this, if you ask for advice.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:39, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks for the support. I will ask for advice next time I feel the need. I honestly thought it was a silly joke. Only after rereading the article three times I saw the mention of Athens. I promise to become more attentive to this kind of detail. Ibaman (talk) 19:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

User:Ianman007

You blocked Ianman007 for one week as a spambot, but that account is most definitely not a spambot. Also, the user was given no talk page warning, and blocks of longer than 3 days without a ban nomination are considered abuse of the block button. I've removed the block pending clarification. -- Ryan • (talk) • 12:47, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

• Well, the user in question posted this:

Expatriates in Berlin

Berlin has reinvented itself as an exciting, innovative, modern capital and is an appealing destination for students, businessmen, entrepreneurs and expats from around the world. From old-world town houses on quiet streets, Soviet-era apartment blocks and modern skyscrapers to artsy industrial neighbourhoods - Berlin has it all. Especially young people are drawn to Berlin thanks to its multicultural artsy atmosphere.

Expatriates in Berlin - Finding an apartment

When moving to Berlin, it is important to choose the right location. Rental prices in Berlin are set according to so called Bezirke (boroughs). Which means that sometimes all you need to do is cross the bridge or turn around the corner and prices drop considerably for just about the same apartments. Berliners do not put signs “for rent” into their windows, so looking for a flat to rent by walking the streets and looking for signs isn't really an option. You need to seach online. Fortunately there is a great number of websites for this purpose:

• Immobilienscout24 – probably the biggest German rental portal with the largest selection of flats for rent.

• FARAWAYHOME - offers only verified furnished Apartments in Berlin, which you can rent for longterm housing (starting from 1 Month)

• White Apartments - specialises in furnished apartments in Berlin. It is the right place to look for nicely decorated furnished apartments for long term rent.

• Wg-gesucht - offers flats for rent as well as flatshares. Advertisements are being posted both by the agents and flat owners.

Additionally you can find a comparison and rating of the most widely used websites on Vergleich.org.

• (end of said posting)

These links are totally unacceptable per policy. I reverted the edit per External links and Goals and non-goals, as I usually do. The user instantly reverted my edit (=edit war=doubly unacceptable) and I blocked. I stand corrected; I should hit the 3 days option instead of 1 week; I should have posted a standard wbo warning, which I would have done if these links were minimally acceptable per policy. What should the standard procedure be in such cases? Ibaman (talk) 13:03, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't find a block inappropriate, even if it possibly should be just three days. As a rule, spamming-only accounts are blocked right away, and even as the text above is more than just linkspam to apartment search sites, to me they look more like a decoration to the links rather than anything else.

Per Apt "in general real estate and rental agency listings are not allowed", unless they are approved for the individual article (ought to be discussed at the talk page) and then added to the Sleep section. Probably Ibaman should've added a warning/notification to the user's talk page, but given the edit warring, chances are that the user wouldn't give a damn about the warning anyway. ϒpsilon (talk) 15:03, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Last resorts has the relevant guidance for when and how to block users that aren't automated spambots or vandals, and it is important that anyone using the "block" button be very familiar with that guidance as unwarranted or excessive use of the block button can be considered abuse of admin privileges. I think all admins deserve some leeway, but this is the second time in ten days that concerns with blocks made by Ibaman have come up, and I don't want to see a precedent set where we start allowing admins to regularly violate site guidelines. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:35, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

At most, this would deserve a 1-day block. The opening paragraph is inappropriate, but the links to portals, though a violation of policy, are probably useful. I know that my girlfriend has used immobilienscout to very good effect in Germany. It's something like airbnb or homeaway, only probably better. As for 3-day bans, once again, unless they are obviously uncontroversial (such as in the case of inveterate spam/touters who have already been blocked for a day and when they return, continue to spam/edit war, not once but numerous times), inappropriate without prior agreement by consensus on Wikivoyage:User ban nominations, and since we just went through this quite recently, as Ryan alludes to, I don't understand why you thought it was OK to do this unilaterally. Can you please explain? As Ryan says, having access to blocking tools is a weighty responsibility which we have to avoid abusing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:14, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

At this point I feel that Ibaman's statement that he will re-read the policies on user blocks and use them more appropriately in the future is a sufficient resolution to this issue. My purpose in calling out this particular incident was not to chastise, but to correct what I perceived to be a worrisome pattern of user blocks. Ibaman has done excellent work in keeping an eye on edits and correcting touting, and I definitely don't want a single bad event to overshadow all of the good work he does. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:05, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you that Ibaman does excellent work: I was the one who nominated him for admin. But for the record, this is now arguably 2 bad events. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:06, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Spambots

I've reverted your block of User:72.252.235.202. This is clearly a real user, not an automated spambot, and no user talk page warning was given prior to the block. -- Ryan • (talk) • 15:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Kashan

What is the reason that the contact info for a tour organiser is to be deleted, while contact info for accomodation/hotel/restaurant is fine? I think it is valuable info for someone who would like to visit a country like Iran independently. Moreover, after your edit, several references in other parts of the text are broken. Please repair it yourself, I dislike your style of editing other peoples' contributions.--149.244.249.9 11:41, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• If you have not read Don't tout and Welcome, business owners, please do so. You cannot advertise yourself as a tour organizer or guide in Wikivoyage, it's against policy. All the best, Ibaman (talk) 11:56, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

If I may interject: 149.244.249.9, Wikivoyage:Tour (scroll to where there is a "Tour listings" subheading if you end up somewhere else when you click that link) is more relevant here. We appreciate the information you've shared, but tours and tour providers can be listed only under restrictive circumstances on this site, such as when they are required by law or regulation or when it is extremely difficult for an independent traveler to accomplish the activity by themselves (such as in the case of river cruises, which require an independent traveler to have or acquire a boat if s/he would like to do one independently). Please have a look at those guidelines, and I regret that they have inconvenienced you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:08, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Dear Ibaman, first, I am not a business owner, and also not a tout. I am a traveller and experienced contributor to other wikimedia projects. I contribute anonymously to protect my privacy. Second, yes, I have read those pages. Wikovoyage policy clearly says Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity. Clearly, independent tourists should not venture out into the salt desert by themselves, the risk of getting lost is considerable. And if I say in many places in the article "charter a car", then I should also say where/how/from whom to charter, otherwise it is a mockery of the reader. Maybe it is up to you to read before deleting.--149.244.249.9 12:27, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

You should state your case on Talk:Kashan, and the Wikivoyage community will express itself and decide about the matter. All the best, Ibaman (talk) 12:39, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

[Edit conflict] The don't tout guidelines are not just for business owners, nor just for people who are intentionally touting, but that said, I think that the tour policy is more relevant. I fully agree on desert tours, but most types of tours can't be listed. The issue is really with this paragraph:

It is possible to make a few day trips out of town. A group of tour guides around Hossein Moznabi (kashan_guide@yahoo.com) has compiled a few tours you can simply sign up to. Prices depend on group size and whether you choose a Persian speaking driver or an English speaking guide. Inquire. You can also bargain with any taxi driver on the road.

Specifically, the problem is that an email address has been given, seemingly for a particular individual guide. The tours mentioned include a trip to sand dunes, which as you say, would reasonably constitute a "value-added" activity that a tour agency or individual guide could be listed as providing. However, a visit to a small town should be possible as an independent traveler.

As I said, I regret the inconvenience, but there is a delicate balance that a consensus on Wikivoyage has decided to maintain, so as to keep this site geared toward independent travelers and prevent it from becoming an advertising board and link farm for all the slews of travel agencies and tour guides who used to spam Wikitravel when it was much less restrictive toward tour listings.

Nothing personal, and thanks again for your helpful contributions.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:41, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

No thanks, I have come here with the intention of a good deed and sharing something useful with future visitors of Iran, where you won't do lots of things without local support, unless you bring tons lof time. I'm not up to lenghty discussions about policy. I find my time too precious. I'd rather throw my notes into the garbage bin, as I see, it saves me lots of frustration.--149.244.249.9 13:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

You needn't engage in lengthy policy discussions if you would choose to operate within the limits of policies set by consensus, just as the rest of us do, regardless of our feelings about each policy. But in the end, whether to contribute here under the site rules is totally up to each individual. Either way, I wish you the best. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:31, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Surprising that you haven't received a proper barnstar yet. Your fighting vandalism and touting is very appreciated as is of course your other contributions too. Obrigado! :) ϒpsilon (talk) 09:28, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

• WoW! This is surprising and much appreciated. Big Thank You! :D Ibaman (talk) 10:04, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Well-deserved indeed. Thanks for all your contributions, Ibaman. JuliasTravels (talk) 17:38, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

What's the difference?

What's the difference of this two sentences. Sue was walking the dog. Sue was walking with the dog.please reply me.Yanlinnnaung (talk) 11:18, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Your reversion(s)

Why did you make rollbacks like this one? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:27, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

• It was inertia actually, I went into "autopatroller mode" after I re-rolled this one, originally rolled by Ikan, which is really redundant and unnecessary. I was really pondering and considering undoing the one you just mentioned (and undid), which isn't redundant neither unnecessary. No big deal. Ibaman (talk) 18:10, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Ah okay. No problem. (If I sound blunt, it might be a cultural thing- there's little small talk in Germany). Good that we cleared that up! Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:52, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

• Always the most important thing here is the creation and maintenance of great travel guide articles. For the record, last month I had a most delightful time in Berlin (Neukölln, to be more specific). I happen to like this "bluntness" and hope to be back there ASAP! Ibaman (talk) 19:16, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Riyadh edits

How's it going? I think that now that User:Bionkid explained his/her reasoning on Talk:Riyadh, it would be great if you would address some of his/her specifics, not just revert the edit again by saying that the "older text is better". Does that seem reasonable to you? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:31, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

• Totally. I'd like to keep the "older text" which is a very clever and well-written bit of prose in my opinion, but User:Bionkid has driven his point home. Having never been to Riyadh, I'd rather trust the writing of fellow Wikivoyagers who know the place. Ibaman (talk) 19:11, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I feel that way, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:02, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Delisted and blacklisted BambooBar Sihanoukville Cambodia

>> Bamboo Bar was de-listed, with its URL blacklisted for repeated touting/edit warring and ignoring edit summaries and user talk messages. I don't think we should suddenly allow it to be listed without any statement by the staff, under whatever username

What can we do to become de-de-listed and de-blacklisted? And what you will do if someone of our guests, or someone from vegetarian subculture decide to add listing about our restauraunt to Wikivoyage/Sihanoukville.

• For a start, state your case on the respective talk page. Regards, Ibaman (talk) 11:58, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Kolkata Article Reverts

Hi! I find that you have reverted all the contribs I made to Wikivoyage entry to "Kolkata, India" over the last weekend. Checking out the difference between the versions, I understand some of them might have been in conflict with external references and Link [you have also deleted all the links to Wikipedia as well] policies, but for many other I could not understand the reason at all. Can you just drop me a line regarding where is this coming in conflict with the policies and why was it necessary for you to delete all of them, including updates on bus fares etc? Thanks! greetjGreetj (talk) 06:22, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Daman and Diu

Sorry for those unexplained edits. I was in the process of turning it into an extraregion. I will be breadcrumbing Daman and Diu separately under Gujarat. Give me a couple of days — Ravikiran (talk) 07:26, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind my butting in to thank you for doing that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Kilometres

Hi, Ibaman! Just a quick comment: India uses British spellings in English, so it's correct to use "kilometres" in articles about India.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:25, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Marking as patrolled

Hi Ibaman! I just wanted to ask if you could make use of the "mark patrolled"-option when doing recent changes patrol. It keeps other patrollers from spending time on edits you have already checked and often reverted of fixed. Did you enable the RTRC option in your preferences? It does make checking and marking a lot easier :) Thanks and keep up the good work! JuliasTravels (talk) 09:27, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

What is a 'guide' article?

Hi Ibaman, could you explain why you indicated the article Oldambt to be "not a guide yet", but instead "usable"? Reading the definition of guide, it states: "The article would be helpful for the average traveler, such as offering alternatives for where to stay and eat, what to see and do, how to get in and out, etc. and provide enough information for at least a few days there. But at least a few things are missing to make this a star article. It follows the manual of style in spirit if not in detail." I would say that it complies with that exactly. I don't really mind, but I am justwondering which criterion I have overlooked. Cheers. --ErwinFCG (talk) 14:48, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Annan

Why have you removed parts of some addresses? In particular postcodes are very useful for people using SatNavs to travel with.

Usable

Hi!

Just a little friendly reminder, per this: for usable status it's enough that a city article has one way of getting in, one thing to see, one place to eat and one place to sleep. It is guide status that requires more. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:11, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

• oops... overzealousness feelings... my bad. Sorry. Will pay attention. Ibaman (talk) 20:15, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Block of Wpwatchdog

I've removed the one day block you placed on Wpwatchdog. The user's contributions weren't obvious vandalism, and since there wasn't an effort to discuss issues with the user in advance I don't think a block is justified. -- Ryan • (talk) • 17:50, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

My apologies to Ibaman. I kept getting error messages while editing and I assumed it was my often poor internet service. I did not see your reversions until after I was blocked. I have no problem with keeping the Whitefish Point Light section in the same section as the Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum in the Paradise, Michigan article. I noticed your edits did not retain the admission price to the museum. Is this something that can be included? Do you mind if I add any other information to that section? I am very new to Wikivoyage although I have been an editor on Wikipedia since 2008. I do not engage in edit wars. Thank you in advance for your patience.Wpwatchdog (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

• First of all, to rejoice it was only a misunderstanding, for lack of communication. Let's think about this matter: we in WV would rather keep things simple and avoid long lists for the benefit of the traveler. I noticed the two attractions share the same location. Two separate listings will overlap each other in the dynamic map. In my view, that justifies the decision for a simple listing describing both attractions. Tell me about your view. And thanks for adding content (I very much want to see the biggest falls east of the Mississipi and west of Niagara), and sorry for my part on the miscommunications and consequent bad feelings. All the best, Ibaman (talk) 11:15, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Botanical tourism

I was wondering if you could add a Brazillian section to this. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:34, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

• Sounds very interesting and feasible! Gonna refresh my sources and start writing soon. Ibaman (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Would certainly be nice to have a few more real tropical gardens on the list, too (now only Singapore is there).

On a related note, to my understanding there are, like elsewhere in the tropics, quite a lot of dangerous snakes and spiders (particularly those palm/hand/even bigger sized hairy things that, if not poisonous, would give travelers from temperate countries instant Travellers' diarrhea by just showing up within a meter) in the Amazon jungle and perhaps elsewhere in the country too. Poisonous South American critters don't seem to be mentioned in those travel topics, nor in the Brazil article or elsewhere, so perhaps you would like to give some input on them too at some point. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:22, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

IP blocks

IP addresses should never be indefinitely blocked. See Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Escalating user blocks. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:11, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Your Iriomote edit

Hi,

for what reason did you delete the link to the bike rental place on the entry for Iriomote?

This is very useful information for any traveller. There are virtually no signs and even if, they are in Japanese only. So any person not in good command of Japanese (probably a lot of the travellers going to the English page of Wikivoyage) will profit hugely from this information.

If it is just the format I'll happily take the hint and redo that paragraph.

Thanks! User4353 (talk) 15:50, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello. The issue with your edit was, such links to Google Maps don't comply with our External links policy. If you can provide a physical address, phone number, primary website, or proper (decimal) geocoordinates, we can list this business properly. Best wishes, Ibaman (talk) 17:46, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

OK, I see. I will add the geocoordinates then. Thanks! User4353 (talk) 18:03, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Mapframe

Could you please be a little more creative with your contributions? --Vadim Shlyakhov (talk) 19:24, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Hello @Ibaman:, the way you were adding mapframes recently to a few pages, in Sicily in particular (Special:Diff/3151032) simply damages their layout. These mapframes bump into another section, "See" in in this case, so if there are any photos in this section they are get pushed into irrelevant location causing also a "domino effect". So you're essentially damaging the work done by other people. That's why I was asking you to be more creative.

Please consider: mapframes are optional. It makes sense to have one at a page if it adds a value and improves readability of a page, not the opposite. So if you're adding one to an article please format and place it accordingly.

BTW If you read more carefully the page you posted a link to at your comment to Special:Diff/3151032 then you'll learn that "Static or dynamic maps are usually displayed in this (Understand) section, if present" Wikivoyage:Where_you_can_stick_it#Understand. Also note that this passage does not use a verb must. So again this is a reference to your creativity.

Hope this makes sense. --Vadim Shlyakhov (talk) 13:21, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Do not vandalise! --Vadim Shlyakhov (talk) 09:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

• This is not vandalism, it's closer to "standard Wiki collaborative effort" and "compliance to Wiki policy", you know. You don't "own" these articles and ought not to feel protective or jealous about them. Ibaman (talk) 12:33, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Please check Wikivoyage:Travellers'_pub#.7B.7BMapframe.7D.7D_vandalism --Vadim Shlyakhov (talk) 13:24, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Roger. By this moment you should be realizing that this is not a "personal" problem, and I'm not the only one concerned with the situation. I hope you can understand and comply. Happy editings. Ibaman (talk) 15:10, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Again; marking as patrolled

Hi Ibaman, I'm not sure if you ever saw my earlier comment here (since you never replied). It's great that you do a lot of recent changes patrol and correct or undo unwanted changes. However, you never mark them as patrolled. Therefore, they continue to show up as unpatrolled (with the red exclamation marks) in the recent changes list, making other administrators and patrollers go through them again. In the end, that means that others are constantly checking your changes as an administrator and marking as patrolled for you - which really is double work and thus a waste of effort. Could you please just click "mark as patrolled" when you check a change? Thanks a lot! JuliasTravels (talk) 22:09, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

• I have not really paid attention to this. I'll be more careful from now on. Thanks for the tip. Ibaman (talk) 10:54, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Great, thanks! There's one more thing. When you block new, registered accounts for obvious spamming or vandalism, you can and probably should do so "indefinitely". You've been blocking the recent file upload spammers for only 1 day. It doesn't only mean that they can just come back to that account, but also that account creation from that IP is only blocked for 1 day. For IP vandals we use short (and increasing) blocks, but for clearly malicious registered editors, especially during a wave of vandalism from one source, Wikivoyage:How_to_handle_unwanted_edits#User_ban offers more firm solutions. JuliasTravels (talk) 12:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

How long to block spammers

Re: this block and some others: Please, when you see a spambot, block indefinitely, or if they're an IP, for at least 1 month. Blocking for a day just means they'll come back and spam more, and someone else will have to block them indefinitely. Thanks a lot.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:02, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Editing

Please refrain from editing an article if someone else is editing it at this very moment: this could be not only distracting, but it may become messy if two people submitting different versions of its text simultaneously. Give it some timeout --Vadim Shlyakhov (talk) 14:12, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Short Addresses

I'm a new contributor but have been entering full addresses as would be needed for a sat nav or routing app (where just the street name would not be adequate). I note you've been editing out the full addresses and wondered if this was practice and if it limits utility (e.g. cyclist out touring might want full address (incl postcode) to get a route? I'm not aware of general practice on the site but was entering what I'd need if touring so I'm unsure (hence asking)

Aware of problems it can cause after the Apple Maps problems with MapKit where app developers have had to bypass Apple "modifying/shortening" the address because of these problems.PsamatheM (talk) 18:45, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

• It has always been standard practice to trim out cities' names in addresses of listings on the respective pages, for brevity and avoidance of redundancy. The importance of the post codes on the context you mention, however, is really not to be overlooked. There has been talk about this issue in a lot of articles about places in England and Wales. I'll pay attention to save them from now on. However, let's agree, Eat or Sleep listings on (e.g) the Lhomme article don't really need "Lhomme, France" on their addresses. Ibaman (talk) 19:23, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Please don't think I'm "disagreeing", just I've been helping one of the major Calendar app supplier for Apple platforms (iOS & macOS) get to the bottom of and debug issues Apple have been causing them with the MapKit API where Apple think they can abbreviate an address and take too much out and even they cannot then locate it on a map (correctly, so they just mark the wrong place). It is particularly bad in the UK (East Anglia particularly), but France can suffer due to the size of their postcode areas (unlike the UK) so ambiguity is far more common e.g. "Place de la Republique, 72250". I'm a new contributor so not for me to come on and immediately start wanting to change everything others have already discussed. I think a lot depends on how an address is being used - use it within e.g. WikiVoyage and the town is redundant, but look to cut and paste the address into e.g. a navigation app (e.g. turn by turn directions to get you there) and suddenly you have an address that "does not work" and you have to start manually edit it to put back in the missing (and crucial) components.PsamatheM (talk) 21:29, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

If I may interject: You should make this point at Wikivoyage talk:Listings. Feel free to link to this discussion when you do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:32, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Listings and Postcodes and Addresses and Abbreviating/Detail

Thanks for your response. I've replied (on my own page) with rather long (and rambling?) thoughts on the WikiVoyage practice of shortening/removing elements/etc. of addresses. Some responding to your comment (appreciated) but a longer bit on my thoughts as to why the practice significantly lowers the usefulness of the WikiVoyage dataset. I include thoughts there as I am unsure as to the best place to post them for any public discussion hopefully towards a new "improved" consensus for best practice ... My thoughts/response User_talk:PsamatheM#Listings_and_postal_codes

Your WV:Tone edits on Sosúa

Please note that I have started a discussion in the pub and want you to weigh in there, before reinstating your edits. I am a bit on the fence of this issue, but clearly a substantial part of the community seems to have a different opinion from yours.

All the best. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:39, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

California dynamic map

Thanks for helping out with the map. I am trying to get all 50 US states (Nevada's done) up to scratch as well, along with all UK counties. We will need to fix the See section though and decide which city isn't immediately noteworthy (as a foreigner, probably Santa Barbara). —The preceding comment was added by Inferno986return (talk • contribs)

Pardon me for interjecting, but why is it useful to have a dynamic map of any state? I would think that at the state level, especially for a huge state like California, we want only static maps. Also, as a non-foreigner but an East Coaster, I would disagree that Santa Barbara is not noteworthy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:22, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately for me, I've never been to California and cannot have an opinion (farther than wanting Yosemite and Sequoia/King's Canyon National Parks featured). What I did was, there were two dynamic maps on this page, whose geomarks were overlapping. One had to go, but the features have to be sorted; on doing that, we now have ten cities. As I said, I cannot have an opinion on this subject. Ibaman (talk) 19:28, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

California is bigger in both area and population than a very large number of countries. Does that influence your opinion on this matter? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:17, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Of course it does. I wish to get to know the region one day. The beaches and the desert and the Sierra Nevada and all the National Parks (Yosemite, Sequoia, Reyes Point, Death Valley etc. etc. etc.) What I meant was, I'm not in a position to judge which of the ten cities must be delisted. Ibaman (talk) 11:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I see! I would think that either Bakersfield or Fresno should be the odd one out, as neither are big draws for tourists. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:10, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Wait, are you denying the incredible touristic value of those metropolyses of the Central Valley? After all, it is there that America's first high speed rail line will be built. SCNR. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:46, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

As a close wiki-companion, thought you should know

	Notice of account creation and page movement
	I, 174.45.128.124 have decided to create an account, User: Zanygenius please direct all posts to my new talk page. (Remember what I said about the password rememberance thing? Well, thank God for a notepad!) -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 04:59, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Justice history

Stub, and I probably don't know very much on the topic outside of the English Speaking world.

Do you know anyone on Wikivoyage that would be able to expand it?

I felt this would be a better article than "History of crime and punishment", as the focus is slightly different. The aim here would be to focus on sites (such as historic legal sites, famous archives.) where the aim was to get "justice" and laws the reflected it, as opposed to an "History of crime" article, which would be a bit darker.. That's not to say "Justice history" can't be rather dark itself in places, if you look at places like the UK. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 19:38, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

• Well, being Brazilian, with a Latin cultural background, I would start with Roman law. Maybe Ancient Egypt or even Hammurabi. The Spanish Inquisition and the French Revolution should be mentioned. I'm by no means an expert on this area but would like very much to contribute. Ibaman (talk) 19:50, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Look forward to the stub being expanded in the near future then :).

And yes the distinction between Roman law systems, Civil law systems , and Common Law systems (like the UK, Commonwealth and US) deserves a mention as the history is different. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:09, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Every empire had laws, including the Chinese Empire, ancient Israel, the Caliphates, you name it. But what's the travel angle? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Well some famous precedents perhaps happened at places you can visit? Is the rail car, Homer Plessy was in, to deliberately break a stupid law, still in existence? What about the former home of Richard & Mildred Loving? What about the site where the Code Napoleon or its step-cousin the BGB (which in turn inspired Japanese Civil Law) were written? Still the travel angle seems not all that broad... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:45, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, another US site would be the Topeka school that was sued in Brown v. Board of Education. But a real effort is needed to keep an article like this travel-relevant. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:20, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Hmm.. You seem to have the right idea, another one would be the Tolpuddle martys museum, in that it relates to legal events that effectively inspired a number of subsequent labour rights movements. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:54, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

There's also the monument in Ottawa for the 4 women who sued to end the prohibition on women becoming senators in 1929. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Attribution of Talk

I see you deleted Phrasebook International. Talk still has much of the wordings copied over when Talk was created. Did you do anything to get attribution work? Otherwise I think Talk is a copyright violation in its current form. Four people seem to have been concerned about attribution in the deletion discussion, while I see nobody arguing for it not being an issue. (And shouldn't the deletion discussion be moved to Talk:Phrasebook International]] instead of deleted? It seems to be quite difficult to find now.) --LPfi (talk) 15:10, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

• I'm sorry to say I overlooked this detail. It seemed to me another simple pcv; I didn't stop and check it carefully. My bad. Ibaman (talk) 12:31, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I'd suggest undeleting it and again turning it into the suggested redirect. --LPfi (talk) 10:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Done Ibaman (talk) 11:55, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

The link above is still red, and it seems to point right. What was done? --LPfi (talk) 05:49, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

• I thought at the time that you meant the talk page only. Now I undeleted the article itself. Ibaman (talk) 13:51, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Thank you. I now added a link from Talk:Talk#Origin to the last version of Phrasebook International before the redirect was made for the first time. I suppose it is the version used for starting the Talk article. --LPfi (talk) 14:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Map of Zug

Hi ibaman, sorry that I more or less reverted your changes on the map of Zug. But I think the town itself is the main attraction in this region. So it makes sense to zoom to the town itself in my opinion. --Renek78 (talk) 17:38, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi there

Hi there fellow Human. --Warfare910 (talk) 15:54, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

IP blocks, Part 2

I see you've been warned about this on your talk page on several instances in the past. Again, please do not indefinitely block anonymous IP editors, even in instances where registered users would ordinarily be indefinitely blocked. See Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Escalating user blocks. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:53, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Avaition (models)

It was claimed in a BBC program about model making from the late 1970's that there were model aircraft and scale flying machines before their full size versions. Although it's probably a footnote in the article, I had put in a section for aviation models where this might be worth mentioning if you find the detail. Thanks ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 20:10, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

WV:TDF

Where does the policy you are quoting say that "12:00" is unacceptable when you are using a 24-hour clock? It doesn't. "Noon" is not used in the 24-hr format. Please read the policy you are claiming to be enforcing. Thank you. Ground Zero (talk) 20:41, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Read the section on 24-hour clock formatting, please. That is the section that applies to this article because all of the times in the article are expressed in the 24-hr format. Ground Zero (talk) 21:00, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

WV:TDF#24-hour format says "Use 00:00 for midnight and 12:00 for noon", nothing else relevant in that section that I can see (and it has not been modified lately). --LPfi (talk) 05:39, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Land art trail on Mt. Učka

Hello, I saw that you put notice on the Land art trail on Mt. Učka - Is this an article? I don't understand where is the problem? It is an itenerary and I follow the sugestions for itineraries, and template to fill it up. --Ursus44 (talk) 18:12, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

• OK, thank you for the explanation. I removed the external links and some "tout" words... I hope it's better now. Feel free to change anything that is not good. Yes, I'm the author, but this is non-comercial project and I really don't want to present it here in the wrong way. It is situated high on the mountain and everyone can visit it while traveling in Croatia. --Ursus44 (talk) 20:18, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
• This is not *my* wiki, you know. This decision must be a consensus. I myself read the article and got interested in this attraction; maybe someday I'll get to go to Croatia and check it out. However, even after your last edit, it still reads very promotional. The art installation is original and beautiful, you must be proud of your work. We all understand that. If it was, say, an amusement park, or a spa, the article would already be deleted beacause it would not qualify as an article. Your case is more delicate. Let's hear what other editors and admins here feel about the situation. Ibaman (talk) 20:27, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

My Listing in Paris page

Hello there Ibaman

Good day to you!

I'm new here and I was wondering why my listing has been removed. I didn't use any promotional language as per the writing guidelines. this is a service which I've used personally and just a recommendation to fellow travellers. That's the best I could do for their reliable service.

Is there any other way I could mention them in the text. let me know

Awaiting yours.

Zoe!

ZoeSparks

Olá

Enviei um email a você, Abs. Guga1248 (talk) 12:19, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

• O email foi lido. A resposta é: aprenda a assumir responsabilidade por aquilo que escreve para ser lido em público. Ibaman (talk) 12:57, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Pode apenas reduzir para 3 dias ou 1 dia? Guga1248 (talk) 15:35, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Por favor! Guga1248 (talk) 13:26, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Some articles that might interest you

Hi Ibaman!

As you might have noticed I just started an airport article for São Paulo-Guarulhos International Airport, perhaps you have some experience with this airport and have something useful to add. Also, Iguaçu Falls will be featured as DotM in December so as an "almost local" you might want to have a look at the article and comment on its nomination. :) ϒpsilon (talk) 16:44, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Varus Battle

I really don't like the term "Teuteborg Forest Battle" because it implies a geography we don't know. As per this (audio in German) there can hardly have been more than one, two thousand Romans at the battle in Kalkriese, which is way less than three legions at full strength would be. However, there is no other place in Germany that "fits", either. There is still some research to be done to find out what happened and where it happened... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:10, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

• Oh well! How I wish I could have already made this trip to Osnabruck and see the evidence for myself. I have recently read Harry Turtledove's "Give Me Back My Legions", that tells the "story" through the viewpoints of Varus and Hermann-aka-Arminius. It's fresh on my memory and surely got me biased. As always, I will trust your judgement, Hobbit, I really enjoy these middle-of-editing small chats we always have. They're always constructive and informative. Ibaman (talk) 18:17, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I have thus far also not had the chance to visit the place. I have been to Cambodonum once, though. With Latin class, as a matter of fact. Or was it history class? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:05, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Edit on the Asia page 10:10, 11 December 2017‎

Hello, I'd like to discuss with you the recent edit you made on the Asia page and why you blocked the anonymous user who made the edit. I believe what that user wrote is accurate; Japanese, Georgian, and Mongolian are not language isolates and the Wikipedia article on language isolates makes this clear (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate) since these languages are demonstrably part of the Japonic, Kartvelian, and Mongolic language families, respectively. Was blocking his/her IP address and accusing him/her of edit warring really necessary? I'd like to restore what he/she wrote since the original wording of the article in the "Talk" section was misleading. Would that be ok with you? PoetOfSaiMiHunManKal (talk) 10:29, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

• This is not about "me", it's about Wikivoyage policy and consensus. I'd like this issue to reach consensus on its respective talk page; with that happening, then, and only then, it "would be ok with me". Ibaman (talk) 10:35, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I think blocking may have been harsh. However we are not a linguistics forum. We don't want to write incorrect stuff, either so we have to thread a tight needle here. I must say that I was dismayed with the dismissive nature of the debate at Talk:Asia as claiming a language is an isolate while it isn't does not in any way help anybody. This does not mean we have to get into protracted linguistic disputes over minutiae, but we should not claim something downright false, either. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:04, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Correct me if you think I'm wrong, Hobbit, but, on my view, whoever comes to this travel guide to dispute linguistically over such minutiae (or, even worse, to reverse edits and conduct an EDIT WAR) does not *at all* have the traveller as a priority. Ibaman (talk) 14:50, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I have to say, I don't think it was necessary to block an IP user for one instance of reinstating an edit, with a reason given in an edit summary. I think that it would be more appropriate to end the block and post an explanation to the IP's user page.

• I'm always very sensitive about anonymous IP numbers edit-warring, and reversing edits by fellow Admins; having said that, I respect your point, Ikan. Will do. Ibaman (talk) 18:54, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Hobbitschuster, in terms of the discussion at Talk:Asia, if you're disappointed with it, please pursue that on the thread. I, too, don't agree with spreading incorrect information. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:43, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your grammar edits to my work.

Page in question: https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Da_Nang

Thank you for your grammar edits to my work. I appreciate the correction. --Beelerb (talk) 16:59, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

• You're welcome. Let's keep on building this awesome travel guide. Ibaman (talk) 17:05, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Stavanger City Map 2018

Wikimedia has received an e-mail confirming that the copyright holder has approved publication under the terms mentioned on this page. This correspondence has been reviewed by an OTRS member and stored in our permission archive. The correspondence is available to trusted volunteers as ticket #2015011410013126. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:City_map_stavanger.png

• Your contribution is much appreciated. However, the map formatting is problematic. Could you please produce a Wikivoyage-style map so the Stavanger article complies to our Manual of Style? It would be even more appreciated. I thank you in advance. Ibaman (talk) 22:04, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

SVG version published

Singular they

While I don't fundamentally disagree with this edit (though it does introduce a presumption of all pilots being male which was not previously there and which might be problematic), please do note that "singular they" has been around for a long time and continues to be used for various purposes. (and here is a Tom Scott video). Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:13, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

• I see . And I can also get your point gramatically. I'm glad to keep learning things from you Hobbitschuster. Ibaman (talk) 22:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Haiti description - collaboration request

Hi Ibaman, I don't disagree that Haiti is poor - however, could there be anything more relevant to mention on a travel page? This tag "Haiti, the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere" is a media stereotype that in 2018 we could hope to move on from. You wouldn't see a city in American highlighted as "Americas poorest city" or "Poorest city in New York State" Or North Korea as the poorest country in Asia or CAR as the poorest country in Africa.

The values of Wikivoyage seem to align that poverty porn should not be encouraged in general. Additionally, there are many other angles to Haiti that could be mentioned here and many more things relevant for a traveller to make a choice to go to this country.

Could you please re-consider and work together with me on this?

I would like to encourage more of my personal contacts that are Haiti/Caribbean travellers to contribute to the Haiti page, and this would be a great place to get started in a positive and realistic manner. What do you think?

References for alternative current Haiti https://www.instagram.com/explore/tags/thisishaiti/

BTW if there is a better place to have this conversation, please let me know or help me move it. I am new, and responding the call-out for new editors and new content. Hope this is a friendly space and I look forward to contributing more. https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Wikivoyage_edit-a-thon_2018

J-wonder (talk) 00:04, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

I think I originally wrote at least part of this blurb. Let me stress that I am not married to it. I think the bit about the Haitian Revolution shows a part of Haitian history that Haiti can be proud of. I have been to the second part country of the Americas and as far as I have heard Haiti is much harder hit than Nicaragua. I think we should address the reputation in some way though I don't know if necessarily in the blurb. If you want to draw more eyeballs you can also raise the issue in the pub Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:16, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the background and being open to working on this together Hobbitschuster (talk). The first part of the blurb is fine, even Haitians have a lot of interest in that part of their history. What do you mean that Haiti was much harder hit than Nicaragura? As someone who lives and travels in Haiti I don't think it's appropriate for the poverty should be addressed at all this section. The reality of travelers to Haiti today is beaches, market life, tap-taps, Carnival (happening now) and nice very hotels. The tourist make-up remains a lot of mission groups, NGO workers (they get out a lot on the weekends actually and would potential use this resource), a dwindling UN contingent that should be all gone in 2 years, and increasingly the Haitian Diaspora and other returnees. There is a trickle of independent and adventure visitors that has the most opportunity to increase. With USA late-night host Conann O'Brien's recent visit the booking numbers reportedly have already gone up. J-wonder (talk) 01:18, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

I raised the issue in the pub Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:14, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Pinging: User:Barbara (WVS), User:Gilles2014, User:Ageency, User:Katxis:

Some contributors to Wikivoyage have a question about the best way to describe Haiti in Caribbean#Countries and territories, from the viewpoint of a traveler. Do you think that it's fair to call out Haiti's reputation for being the least wealthy Caribbean country in that list? Is there something else that you think is more salient?

(See Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians for general information about Wikivoyage, and, yes, we probably should try to steal User:J-wonder for the w:ht:Haitian Wikipedia, but let's all pretend that we're not going to do that until at least next week, okay? 😸) WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:26, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping-I would never have discovered this conversation. I'm a little unsettled about the whole idea that an editor on Wikivoyage can say things like Haiti is the poorest country and use the phrase 'grinding poverty' without some kind of reference. Isn't it better to use terms used by Haitians themselves? At this point I don't know what those terms might be. Granted, I've only been in Cap Haitian for a short time, but no one I was with needed to apologize for their 'grinding' poverty. Isn't a bit more neutral to list a per capita income? That would be a little more objective. It is also unsettling to think that travelers have to be warned to be somehow prepared to see what they will see. I don't travel as much as I would like, unfortunately but have always considered my self fortunate enough to be able deal with people in a way that is not based upon their income. I've known grinding poverty and because I am proud (and vain) I would not like to be reminded of it. We tend to blame people for their poverty and I don't like to seeing what I read in the description of Haiti. Only my opinion, btw. Best Regards, Barbara (WVS) (talk) 07:45, 11 February 2018 (UTC) (temporary administrator on ht:Wikipedya)

It is emphatically not the fault of Haitians that they are in such a bad way. Instead, as I understand, historically it's been overwhelmingly the fault of France and the United States, which never forgave enslaved people from the African Diaspora for successfully overthrowing their masters, imposing trade sanctions and requiring reparations for stealing property by freeing themselves! Subsequently, the U.S. dominated Haiti, either directly or by installing one corrupt, brutal dictator after another. In recent years, even United Nations "peacekeeping" forces (odd in a country not at war) have severely compounded the problems there by importing cholera and sexually assaulting Haitians. So the problem I see is that the sentence order and context for the grinding poverty could be made clearer.

But where I disagree strongly is that just because a lot of people have bought into the propaganda of right-wing "Devil take the hindmost" capitalists that poor people are to blame for their poverty is no reason to ignore the existence of poverty, nor the fact that visitors will witness it unless they are solely going on cruises to resorts cut off from the rest of the country. I have not been to Haiti, but I went to India in 1977 and wouldn't have minded being given a clear forewarning that my parents and I would be repeatedly surrounded by crowds of child beggars in Delhi. Despite having lived in Malaysia for the previous two years before that, I had never experienced that (Malaysia was an upper-tier developing country in those days, and while I saw poor people in Medan, Indonesia literally eating garbage, itself a shocking experience, we hadn't been surrounded by child beggars there). Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:33, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

The current version says, "Founded by former slaves who won first their freedom and then independence against the might of revolutionary and Napoleonic France. Today, Haiti is the poorest country of the Americas, having struggled against conflicts and natural disasters in recent years." Do you think that provides the kind of useful information that a traveler might need?

(Right now, I'm thinking that the recent US State Department's warnings about violent crime might be of more immediate interest to a traveler.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:18, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

It misses everything in between independence and the disasters of the last few years. Even the hurricane was a lot worse because Haiti, deliberately impoverished by France and the U.S., was forced to chop down all its forests for fuel and left with no protection against flooding. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:38, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

It's not particularly tourism focused, I must say... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:50, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

As I excuse myself of being absent for the last few days - with not enough free time to do more than quick spam-mopping duty - I thank all of you for carrying on with this discussion, and engaging its important points. Wikivoyage is the best. Ibaman (talk) 13:26, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

User:J-wonder suggested "Today, Haiti has relative political stability and security and is once again becoming a tourist destination for those seeking a road less traveled". I'm not sure that quite hits the mark, either. Maybe we could find something between the two?

The travel advice from the UK is very similar to that from the US: robbery is a serious problem, kidnappings aren't unusual, and demonstrations happen frequently. The advice felt more a lot more like "don't travel at night, don't walk around town, don't carry much cash, don't go into certain neighborhoods at all" than "there's missing windows and dirt and beggars". Given this, I wonder whether these might be the relevant points:

• The southwestern parts of the country are still affected by hurricane damage.
• Some parts of the country currently have significant problems with crime and security.
• It might be appealing to someone looking for an unusual destination ("a road less traveled"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:29, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘While I agree that all of this should be mentioned in the "Stay Safe" section, does it really belong in the blurb? Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:18, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Karnataka edit

Dear Sir

Thank you for the editing

Well, i just want to take off some of the smaller Towns and add some larger Towns in that page. Considering the page limit is 7+2, can i edit the number of towns to keep it at max of 9, adding some of them and deleting a few of them which I feel are quite smaller

Kindly please let me know the same

• Thank you for replying. Such edits are never done unilaterally on Wikivoyage; they require consensus. You should start proposing on the article's talk page which cities should or not be on the list and why. If no one objects or contests your proposal, then you may proceed with the change. Please refer to our Manual of Style whenever you feel the need. Regards Ibaman (talk) 18:51, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

User:Pearlconstruction

There's an important difference between spammers and touts that must govern what you do when handling problem editors like the user above.

Even though they're doing so as a means to promote their own businesses, in a certain way touts are here to help build a travel guide: they do add listings to articles, albeit with promotional language, flowery prose, etc. With a bit of guidance, it's possible to turn a tout into a productive editor, so by all means you can welcome a tout on his talk page with Template:Tout.

However, User:Pearlconstruction was not a tout but a spammer. He's never going to edit in mainspace; he's just here to post ad copy on his user page so that search engines will pick it up. Don't waste your time welcoming spammers with the tout template, or leaving notes on their talk page gently reminding them that spam is not allowed. Just delete everything and block them.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:33, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

• Roger, Andre. I've been through some mobile phone hardware problems lately, and this interferes with my operational decisions, clouds my judgement, sometimes (and is the reason why I didn't reply instantly)... maybe we should produce a "subst:spammer" template to employ in such cases. But I see and get your point. Will comply. Let's keep it up. Ibaman (talk) 17:42, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Non promotional edits

I was adding a destination that you removed. https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Guanacaste#Do What about it makes it promotional? This is a thing to do in the area. I am trying to offer suggestions of things to do in Guanacaste, Costa Rica.

Here is a similar destination that is not promotional. https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Abiquiu with Ghost Ranch.

• The article is in question is about a province. Such listings should go in their respective cities' pages, not provinces. Abiquiu (AH-bi-kyoo) is a village and not a province. Please mind our policies about Wikivoyage:Geographical hierarchy and Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it. Regards Ibaman (talk) 20:45, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Merge the Page (Duhok) to (Dahuk)

Hi...i am working on the Page (Duhok) and this is the correct spelling so why not adding the merge tag on the other page with the name of (Dahuk)?..Regards Sarbast.T.Hameed (talk) 23:30, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

• Hello. This is so because "the other page" is older. If you disagree with this, please express yourself on the article's talk page about your reasoning. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 20:35, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

• ok thanks for declaration and do I have to delete all the work I did on the page Duhok and add it to the Page Dahuk ? Sarbast.T.Hameed (talk) 23:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Please just add your stuff to the older page, we'll take care of the deletions. Thanks a lot for the attention Ibaman (talk) 20:43, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Ok Dear I will...Sarbast.T.Hameed (talk) 23:45, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Ok It Is Done and you can Delet the page Duhok...Sarbast.T.Hameed (talk) 12:03, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I restored Duhok and turned it into a redirect to Dahuk. Merge and delete is not to my knowledge an option on this site, as when text is merged from one article to another, the history of the source article has to be kept intact. Moreover, an alternate spelling of a city's name is a possibly search term, and therefore a good redirect. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:51, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

• I see, and will keep attention to this procedure from now on. Ibaman (talk) 11:59, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Cool. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Simplifying

I think my version of the sentence was simpler and easier to follow as it avoided having a long and unwieldy compound subject. Is there a reason you [ https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Kehl&curid=131690&diff=3456178&oldid=3456174 reverted] to the more awkward earlier version? Ground Zero (talk) 20:27, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

• Our edits were simultaneous. I reverted mine. Yours reads better indeed. Ibaman (talk) 20:29, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Keta article

Messed-up Telstra article: Please have a look at User talk:Edmondson1344. We should delete the article, IMO. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:45, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

• As it is a place that actually exists, shouldn't we just edit out the Telstralized bits? I guess policy says so, I was advised something like that before. Ibaman (talk) 22:12, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

I thought telstra policy was "shoot on sight" i.e. deletion. Hobbitschuster (talk) 02:34, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Exactly. It should be deleted, now that it's entirely clear who wrote it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:41, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Of course you could re-create the article if you like. Copy anything useful to your user page if you want to, and then I'll delete. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:42, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

• Done I don't want it that much, you know. Ibaman (talk) 11:14, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

User:ShakespeareFan00/Government,_politics_and_opposition

My knowledge of political history outside of the UK is somewhat limited. Perhaps if you time you would be able to help expand this?

I've added a link Brasilia as Seat of Government though. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:09, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Blocking

A ban on one month after only one warning? That seems pretty severe. I would have escalated fairly quickly, but that strong a penalty seems designed to get him to quit instead of trying to turn him into a constructive contributor. Ground Zero (talk) 18:01, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

• It seems harsh at first, yes. However, I noticed a pattern; the user in question didn't "create a new vandalism", instead, a rollback of mine was undone, which makes me almost sure it was the same "Fuck Florida" user who made the original vandalism I rolled back. That was my logic. Ibaman (talk) 18:25, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Less tourists

Yuck. I meant "less touristy", but I like "less crowded" even better. Thanks for fixing that. Ground Zero (talk) 19:12, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Hot desert, not desert.

You reverted my edit on the Sahara page.

The thing is, it's true. It says on Wikipedia, "The Sahara (Arabic: الصحراء الكبرى‎, aṣ-ṣaḥrāʼ al-kubrá, 'the Great Desert') is the largest hot desert and the third largest desert in the world after Antarctica and the Arctic."

So why did you revert it? --Wasabi OS (talk) 15:06, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

• Wikivoyage has policies on obvious and brevity of speech. The information is undisputably true, however, it sounds like "Rio de Janeiro's beaches are wet and sandy". If you care very much about saying Sahara is hot, the edit may be kept, though. Ibaman (talk) 15:42, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Nowhere in our policies does it say that we should convey wrong information. I do think that the information should be worded in such a way that it is clear that the Ice Deserts are in fact deserts... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:20, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

True. I don't find it fair. Also, Ibaman, that wasn't the point I was getting across. A desert is a place where it hardly ever rains and it is hard to live there. Antarctica fits that description. And it's bigger than the Sahara. A desert doesn't have to be sandy to be a desert.--Wasabi OS (talk) 13:49, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Here's my take on this: The Sahara is obviously not an ice desert, but not all parts of it are always hot. I think the text of that article should read something like "Other than the vast expanses of ice desert in the Antarctic and Arctic, the Sahara is the world's largest desert." The reason I like a wording like that is that the Antarctic and Arctic are literally deserts but rarely considered to be deserts in common parlance. This way, the article is accurate but the points about the Antarctic and Arctic, which aren't specifically relevant to the article, are deemphasized. Ibaman, are you OK with that? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:20, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

it's a better wording indeed. No objections. Let's keep on building this awesome travel guide. Ibaman (talk) 23:29, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:24, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi, Ibaman, and thanks for your tireless patrolling!

I'd like to ask you to please address the point in this edit summary at User talk:Soarwakes. I, too, occasionally just rollback edits when I don't have time to do anything more, but when we have a moment, explaining the reason for an edit can really help (though sometimes not).

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:52, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Specialty drinks of the region

Hello, Ibaman,

The rollback you did on San Luis Soyatlán in the Drinks section where you state that is should be about places and not regional specialties; I have to address that the town is most famous for one of those specialty drinks (know as the "Vampire" cocktail). I understand the other drinks should be removed if the page should only be about the region. However, should this particular drink, of which this town is famous for, be removed as well?

Thanks for the attention,

Wikismart (talk) 21:34, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks for asking! Specialities usually go on the Eat and Drink sections of the province/state level article. In this particular case, I think the Vampire deserves a brief mention; it would be best to list the places that serve it as well. Thanks for improving the San Luis Soyatlán article. All the best, Ibaman (talk) 21:46, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

D Day

Not exactly sure why some editings have just been made removing the amendments I've made to the DDay guide. All the changes are factual .. and I know since I live here

• Erasing links to put "your" preferred battlefield guide is unacceptable and against WV:Tour, External links and Don't tout policies; talking about "one of the seven key reasons why (...)" is too vague and imprecise and against the WV:Tone policy. Ibaman (talk) 16:44, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Your revision on Literary travels

My contribution was a literary reference to Alexandre Dumas Lady of Montsoreau, and I think there is no connection between Dumas and Chambord. Would you consider reverting your revision. All my very best, Philippe49730--Philippe49730 (talk) 14:32, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

As we were talking before, I was concerned that your edits might constitute touting; after we spoke, I got convinced and satisfied that they're not. I'd be glad if there was an article on the Château d'Ussé, so we could make the Perrault connection. Let's keep working and improving our travel guides. Ibaman (talk) 15:59, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Perfect! --Philippe49730 (talk) 16:58, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Tukums

Hello! Thanks for help in article about Tukums. I think, there must be two maps - the largest one, which is at this moment, and one more, where can see only Centre of Tukums. Can it be possible? --Treisijs (talk) 20:16, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

• I think so. It could be a stactic map. Please read WV:Map and WV:Mapmaking Expedition to know more about this. And thank YOU for improving the article. Ibaman (talk) 20:32, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Why did you block recent user?

I understand why you did, but I had just perfected the "Welcome to Wikivoyage" letter to TheJagla. I think this page creation could have been, as Wikipedia says, a "good faith edit". However, I didn't click the link on the page, and that could definitely have been a trojan horse. I just think that we should have waited for him to do something worse before completely removing him from Wikivoyage. Selfie City (talk) 15:20, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

• Even as I don't disagree with your point of view, edit warring like that is bad enough. I hope the user in question reflects his/hers own actions and expresses his/her feelings on the talk page. Ibaman (talk) 15:29, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I'm just worried that their whole reason for getting on Wikivoyage was that post, and now they feel like they've lost, they'll leave the site. Thanks, though, for taking fast action in deleting that page. Selfie City (talk) 15:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Serviced apartments

Hi, Ibaman, and thanks for your great patrolling work, as always!

But re: this edit, serviced apartments are OK to list - of course, without touting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:52, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

• Done Long live Wikivoyage. Ibaman (talk) 12:29, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. It still probably needs detouting; maybe I'll get to that some time. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Northeastern India

Hi there!

You recently deleted few suggested edits to North-Eastern India - Travel Guide. Moreover, you have also deleted the underlying text - while only retaining the suggested photograph. Thank you for pointing to a reason - external links. Those links are authoritative and exceptional themselves - a criteria point that allows such references - to help others develop the article or to travellers looking for more information. Could you please help explain why the links and text were deleted? These add value to a page that needs more love, not less, sir. Backpackingseries

Thanks,

• Please acquaint yourself with our Don't tout, Goals and non-goals and External links#What not to link to policies. You cannot link to your own blog, even if you happen to be Abhijeet Deshpande himself in person, sorry. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 15:27, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

• What is the rationale for deletion of underlying text? Is that too in conflict with External links#What not to link to ? If the links are a problem, remove them. But why delete the text? Sorry, it takes time and effort to create and provide information. We would not want to form opinions about this platform early on. As for the page, it requires more love, not less. So if there's no other reason, could you please restore the underlying text? Otherwise, it's just waste to contribute here.

The underlying text has nothing of value. Making patronising comments is obviously a faux pas. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:58, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Alright, perhaps there are similar views (obvious) about the contrib on improving security situation - which is good. Thank you.

I think generally if an article doesn't mention safety issues, that should be enough for most people. But if the region has a reputation for lack of security in the past, then it would be worth mentioning, without the links of course. I hope that makes sense. Let me know if not. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:32, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

User block User:Libertarianmoderate

Please add text to users talk page for the reason why the account is blocked? I am interested to know too. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:59, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Traveler100, he created a page called "The Great Satan" and redirected to WT, and a few days ago caused some problems on the Wikivoyage:Wikivoyage and Wikitravel page. I've gotten in touch with you guys about this because he's basically acting like a vandal would. He probably thought it was just a joke, but it didn't go down to well. Selfie City (talk) 22:05, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Misunderstanding is not vandalism. I am not enthusiastic about his editing but should first try to explain convention here and give the person a chance before going for the blocking method. --Traveler100 (talk) 22:07, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, he was blocked, and he has apologized. We should probably unblock him now he's apologized. But still, let's be clear that creating pages that shouldn't be on the site is vandalism. That's what Willy does. Selfie City (talk) 23:02, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

• I basically checked out SelfieCity's request, in the manner that I do with most PCV vandals. Said user sent me an apologistic inbox message, with some deep self-criticism. "Maybe I set you WV guys for a major lawsuit and I understand ir I get banned for life (...)" Some actions of his are clearly unacceptable. I'd like to get a little more of the community's input on this situation. Sorry for the lack of words, at this timezone I'm on smartphone mode and typing is slower. Ibaman (talk) 23:15, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

At the moment, there's not much hope of community input: apart from Libertarian, there hasn't been much activity on WV and the usual users haven't been very active lately: AndreCarrotflower, Granger, Ikan Kekek, Ground Zero, Typhoons, and the list goes on. However, I'm more willing to take Ibaman's view about this than Traveler100's: after the discussion in the Pub (I get the feeling from Libertarian's apology that he read the discussion and suddenly realized what he was doing), it's clear this is a serious issue: the main reason I'm not administrator now is because of that issue, and I didn't even purposely do anything harmful (and there were no disasters, fortunately). I think in the long run we should let Libertarian back in the ring, but I wouldn't do that until we got opinions from Wikivoyagers who have been around longer, like the names I've mentioned in the first part of this comment. Selfie City (talk) 23:54, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

I have left my thoughts under the VIP discussion. In short, In think the response has been far too heavy handed in this case. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:01, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

I think he deserves another chance, but a stern warning should be given and his conduct monitored... Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:27, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Ive weighed in here. My Wikivoyage time will be more limited for the next couple of weeks. I agree with a temporary block, but not a permaban. Ground Zero (talk) 04:00, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

On the face of it, if he's apologized, he shouldn't be permanently banned, but we need to watch him very closely, and if he ever does something like this again, he should face a long ban of at least a month, as this is a more serious offense than touting/edit warring on a single page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:25, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree with the emerging consensus. Thanks, guys, for taking a more considered approach. I think this kind of permanent ban without warning, when used against accounts that are not used solely for vandalism, reflects poorly on Wikivoyage and puts into question how seriously we take our own rules, not to mention our sense of fairness. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:05, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Image

Ref: Pharping article. I understand the no gallery policy, but the only attraction of the area is a sacred cave and a hand print. What other image could be added to the article other than one of the cave and/or hand print. Furthermore the image was taken by me and uploaded by me. So, if you do not agree to adding one image of the main attraction of the place that the article is dedicated to, then please advise me on what images would be acceptable. 27.34.104.55 15:22, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

N W Iraq

I meant to say it was religiously Sunni and ethnically Arab and Kurdish. I guess I forgot to finish it. My mistake. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 00:52, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Universal Orlando

Hey!

Why did you revert literally all of my edits on the Universal Orlando page? I was expanding in in the vein of the Walt Disney World travel guide, with exciting language and clear sections. In reversing my edits, you also removed all of my added listings in the hotels and other sections. The guide is now, once again, hopelessly out of date and unusable.

Threeyoda (talk) 19:59, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

• Hello. Thanks for asking. Wikivoyage has standing policies about tone and promotional flowery language. Your edits needed adjustments, something that happens all the time in collaborative efforts like this online travel guide. Please pay attention to our Manual of style, and acquaint yourself with the WV policies, so these unpleasant situations can be avoided. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 20:04, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Ibaman I think there have been problems with your sometimes a bit too eager use of the undo button. Please consider a more fine grained approach before biting newbies... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:01, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Blocked PCV vandal for one week?

Isn't the standard a three-day block, and then gradual increase? 71.208.13.42 didn't do anything that was truly harmful, so I think a smaller time block would be more appropriate. Selfie City (talk) 20:24, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Or is the starting block even less? Selfie City (talk) 20:29, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing, sometimes I get a little hot headed with these serial PCV freaks and forget the timetables. I will adjust accodingly. Ibaman (talk) 21:13, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Jason Cribbs

This is an LTA, reported at Meta: m:Special:Diff/18286064. Favonian (talk) 18:38, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Ibaman, thanks for banning indefinitely. Obviously a troublemaker. Selfie City (talk) 18:44, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

• Always watching. Long live Wikivoyage. Ibaman (talk) 18:45, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Also, make sure he can't edit his own talk page. He's edit warring on that one too now, as well, as you know. Selfie City (talk) 18:47, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

• Good point, done that. Ibaman (talk) 18:49, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

For the record, this guy is a real troublemaker. He's now adding his usual complimentary statements to my Wiktionary user page, which I really don't care about because I don't edit there anyway. But it doesn't matter to us Wikivoyagers anymore, so I'm not too worried. Selfie City (talk) 19:07, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Per the link posted at meta: w:Wikipedia:Long-term_abuse/Denver_LTA, this individual has been vandalising wikis since 2007, so unfortunately this is another "on wheels" type of vandal that we aren't going to get rid of anytime soon. One might wonder how that person behaves in real life. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:14, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Limoncocha

I am undoing the vfd on the article because I think that is a very blunt instrument to use on a newbie. As it is about a reserve around a body of water then it could be a valid article. Should give the article and the new user a bit of time and assistance rather then discouragement. --Traveler100 (talk) 21:35, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

this is a valid point; I abide it. Ibaman (talk) 22:54, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I think in general your admin work could improve by you sometimes taking a step back, waiting a bit and then taking a decision. I respect your admining work, but I fear sometimes you go too far and perhaps bite newbies who may have become valuable contributors otherwise... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:58, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I won't disagree that sometimes I get a little too obsessive-compulsive and visceral about cleanliness and spit-and-polish here in WV. This weekend was very busy, we know. Let me breathe and drink some tea and work on improving my calmness. :) Ibaman (talk) 23:08, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm blocked

....?? Ibaman (talk) 18:49, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I think it was a mistake. Ikan Kekek, can you fix the problem? ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:50, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Ibaman, do you know what "BTCentralPlus" is? It's the reason given for your block. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:55, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

• It's analogous to "Telstra". Let's hope Andre shows up online soon... Ibaman (talk) 18:59, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Oh, we'll then this was definitely a mistake. In the last 30 minutes or so I've got in touch with a couple other users about this, but they either didn't respond or they weren't admins. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:02, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

BTCentralPlus is apparently a UK telecom provider used by that vandal from northwestern England who blanks pages and writes offensive stuff on people's talk pages (Telstra is an Australian one, used by the Telstra vandal).

Is TT or Traveler100 around, they're admins and here fairly often? Also, it would be good if Andre could identify what mistake made him block two normal users within a couple of days. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:08, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

You can check the recent changes log to see what admins are around. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:25, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Just checked AndreCarrotflower’s talk page and you should now be unblocked. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:30, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry

I sincerely apologize for the mistake. I'll try to be more careful going forward. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:48, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

• No problem. These things happen. Let's keep building an awesome travel guide. Ibaman (talk) 20:03, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Zayn Hussein

Hey, man. I'm Zayn Hussein! Can't wait to start working with you. Zayn Hussein (talk) 12:51, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

located located located located located located located located located located located located located located located located located located located located located

Hello, my friend, and thanks for your tireless patrolling work! However, would you consider dialing down the hyperbole on uses of "located"? Sure, it's unnecessary, but when users include it, they don't mean any harm, and posting this kind of edit summary might offend them, especially when they used the word only once and the real problem is a lack of information in the article, at least for now.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:27, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

• I'll consider. I exaggerate sometimes, I agree. As for the Sleep item in Phong Nha-Ke Bang, I un-reverted back to "your" edition, as I thought to have seen an Eat listing hijacked in benefit of said item. Excessive zeal. I'll pay more attention to that. Long live Wikivoyage Ibaman (talk) 13:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

The "Eat" listing was indeed hijacked without comment, but I had already reverted that action and the "Sleep" listing, though not informative enough, was OK in terms of the touting guidelines. We'll have to watch the coming edits (if any) by that user to see if they form a pattern of touting or improve, but so far, I think the "Sleep" listing showed improvement - and thanks for listifying it! Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:55, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Reversion

Hi, Ibaman. Are you sure about this one? It seems borderline to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:19, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

• Written by the same hand, featuring the same address. Yeah, I'm positively sure. Ibaman (talk) 18:23, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

OK. My approach was to revert the 1st-person tour listing but leave the other one, but I could have been wrong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:26, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks

For your work dealing with today's vandal. Since I'm not an admin I could only blank the talk page. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 19:37, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Atins

Hi there. My internet here is very slow and limited, it's difficult to edit the article at the same time you do. Would you mind giving me one hour or so so I can add new content before you edit and tweak it? Thanks Kyriri (talk) 22:13, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	TELSTRA, FUERDAI AND PCV ON UNICYCLES! ALSO JOIN TODAY FOR A FANTASTIC HOTEL RATE OFFER!!! Just kidding, have this barnstar for your awesome, tireless work keeping Wikivoyage vandal-, troll- and tout-free. :) ϒpsilon (talk) 19:17, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

• Heat, hear! A well-deserved award! Ground Zero (talk) 03:16, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Appeal by the blocked user

Hi! Today you blocked Wekeepwhatwekill, who then left a message on my talk page and asserted that the scripts in his user space make no harm. He made a few contributions to several Wikimedia projects without being blocked there, so there seems to be no immediate reason to block him here at Wikivoyage. However, I don't know exact reasons you imposed the block and I don't really want to interfere. Just take a look at this appeal and make your decision. Thanks! --Alexander (talk) 17:10, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks for the headsup. This username and scripts and statements on his talk page got me kinda startled, and lately we have been tackling wanton vandalism on a daily basis. I will act. Ibaman (talk) 18:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for unblocking me

I appreciate it. So we don't have this confusion again, I'm going to tell you what those scripts are. The first script is a userhighliter, it consists of two files, 1.) Userhighlighter.js and sysops.js. The file highlights the sysops names in blue on talk pages. The "engine" if you want to call it that, is Userhighliter.js, it reads the sysop's names from sysop.js. I'm not it's author, it's written by Amalthea over on en.wikipedia.org.

2.) The second script is a vandal fighting script from Lupin (also on en.wikipedia.org) This has a few files attached to it, but the engine it recent2.js. This one takes the feeds from recent changes and allows for quick reverting in the case of test edits, vandalism, etc... It's not a bot because the operator makes the decision to remove the edit, it also has a way of placing a template on the page of the person who's edit was removed.

I run these two same scripts on simple.wikipedia.org without any issue. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me.

By the way, my username is a reference to the movie "Riddick" , as is my tag "We keep what we kill" . It's what the necromongers (characters from "Riddick" ) said was their religious credo, that's all. 'Necromonger' Wekeepwhatwekill 19:04, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikivoyage! I'm sure you were accidentally blocked because we have a vandal that shows up here almost every day creating new accounts, sometimes with names formatted similar to yours (for instance yesterday: Special:Contributions/15menonadeadmanschest, Special:Contributions/Letshavealookatwhatwecandohere). Their modus operandi includes, among other things, insulting admins and others who revert their vandalism. As one of your created pages as per recent changes happens to include a list of names of admins, Ibaman probably assumed the page included something offensive about them. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:21, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

• Yes, we're on a high alert condition these days, and I am sorry for mistaking you for a vandal, and happy that this misunderstanding is over. Let's keep on building this awesome travel guide. Ibaman (talk) 23:08, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Steamboat Springs

Please be a little nicer to new contributors. Suggest, rather than simply deleting the entry, edit so it is not touting and explain why on the users talk page. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:05, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

• I usually do exactly that with registered users. IP numbers who don't bother to register are sometimes entitled to that amount of courtesy, if they add content of value. This edit was a link to an aggregator site of condo rentals, one textbook example of a very common violation of Apt and Don't tout and External links, which I treat as spam on sight, in autopilot mode. Having said this, I see and respect your point, and will do my best to comply from this moment on. Ibaman (talk) 20:11, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Well, actually I think you did the right thing. We should have zero tolerance towards touting. This is not a "new contributor", it's a tout. The most you owed him was a talk page message to give him another chance to post a non-touty version. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:45, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I don't want to drag people into the discussion unless this is really what they think, but I remember Ikan Kekek saying in the past that we should deal with touting by completely removing any "touty" comment. I'm not stating my opinion on this, just saying that if this was the case then what Ibaman was doing made sense. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:56, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

But since you did drag me in... :-) My feeling is that when there are few listings in an article or the listing is almost OK (or a bunch of listings are touty and need work), it's worth the time to detout, but when there are a lot of listings, it's best to simply revert and post an edit summary and a message in the user's user talk page with either the subst:tout template or a short typed pointer to Wikivoyage policies. Only when I'm in a rush may I just rollback with no edit summary or talk page message (I don't recommend doing that), unless it's a repeat offender, in which case, I am likely to block the user's posting privileges if they should have had sufficient time to read the previous message on their user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:26, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I just looked at the reversion. It was a blatant tout, as Ibaman said. And he didn't use rollback but gave reasons for the reversion in an edit summary. Traveler100, if you'd like to spend your time trying to work with marketers, please go ahead and do it, but in most cases, it's about as useful and about as good a use of time as hitting your head hard against the wall repeatedly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:48, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Walt Disney World

Hey, you revert my contribution : https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Walt_Disney_World&oldid=prev&diff=3639044 However on the website of Disney World, the price that you say, it's not indicated : https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/guest-services/parking/ --Mikani (talk) 18:48, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

• Hello. I happened to have been there two weeks ago. I can testify the price is US$22. Ibaman (talk) 18:50, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Value-added tours?

Hi, Ibaman. I'm not sure about this edit. Horseback riding is a value-added activity. Trekking would seem to be, too, but I'm not quite as sure about that one. And for what it's worth, the language doesn't seem touty to me. I'd like to hear your views, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:27, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

• Well, I acknowledge a tendency of mine to sometimes go "nuke'em all" when it come to tour agencies. Most of the time, I see no point in letting this kind of listing stand, per the same criteria by which we don't list fast-food chains. I confess having made similar edits on Mount Kinabalu not too long ago. Basically it looks unclean and cluttering our pages. But yours is an important point. Sometimes I check our wbo policy before acting, someitimes I don't. If the listings are legit and totally compliant to policy, let's put them back. Ibaman (talk) 21:48, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm very sympathetic to your viewpoint, but at the same time, we do benefit from encouraging constructive businesses and marketers. They're few and far between and do add real value to this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:38, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, and especially in locations like these, in deep South America. I have put the listings back. Ibaman (talk) 22:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Paw paws

Have a look at w:Asimina triloba. I don't know if I've tried this fruit, but you will see that it is not a papaya. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:32, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

• Well, thanks for the heads-up IK. I have read a lot of books on travel and literature that call papayas "pawpaws", and felt confused. I like a lot of Annonaceae fruits (they're abundant and popular down here), but this one I have never seen or heard about. Obviously papayas and pawpaws are very dissimilar and not related. Ibaman (talk) 14:47, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Your confusion is totally understandable. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:53, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

I also learned something new :) ϒψιλον (talk) 15:05, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

69.119.123.19

if you do not like the edits explain in user talk page and in the undo. Maybe give a reason and a block could be considered. --Traveler100 (talk) 17:26, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

• I did! I put obvious on most of them. The user in question made some quality edits, though. Ibaman (talk) 17:48, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Editing people's user pages

My friend, I really disagree with edits like this. It's to my understanding a cardinal principle of Wikivoyage that no-one except the user him-/herself edits their user page, other than to delete it for violation of Wikivoyage policies. I would go so far as to say that making someone's user page - which is supposed to be where they introduce themselves to readers - say "Wikivoyage tolerates no spam, sorry" constitutes vandalism. The thing to do is delete the page and then post the no-spam notice on their user talk page - or just permanently block the user if they seem like an outright spambot. I will do that in this case. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:09, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Recent edit that was reverted

The edit by TheYoungTourist388 about the village of Pakistan is a Telstra edit, so really there's no point in explaining why you are doing the reversion. Just in case you didn't know, if you see usernames like the one above that make unconstructive edits, it's not a user that wants to work with us.

See User talk:Brendan John Williams. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:29, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Apologies

In case you don't notice my comments elsewhere, my sincerest apologies for the mistake I made that stopped you from editing. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:28, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

• It was on the side of overcautious, no problem, I understand. Wikivoyage rules. Ibaman (talk) 01:31, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Why u have reverted my contributiion in wikivoyage page about Banlung

Hi. Golf nights. I have got one contributiion adding information in the page of Banlung on wikivoyage. I dont understand why u have reverted the information if its its verídic. U van contrast on web page. After there are information about one travel Agency with link not good and nobody quit this information. I can not understand why u don t accept good information. Pitxiquin (talk) 13:30, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Banlung

Hola. Veo que entiendes el castellanisme. Perdona que te escriba en este idioma. Lo domino mas que el ingles. Yo no sou vandalico. Sou editor experto de la Viquipèdia en català. Puedes verlo si quieres. Lo inici que me història és saber que he echo mal editando la informació certera y veritable que he añadido de una agència de viajes local. No tengo ningún interès en la misma, solo añado informacion por si alguien quiere buscar un guia local indígena que le explique el funcionamento y como vivien las gentes locals. No entiendo que hay de mal en Ello. Y Mas cuando contrasto la información con una pàgina web que funciona y avala la informacion. Si me puedes explicar que hago mal, agradeceria que lo explicaràs en vez de borrar la información y proteger la pàgina. Gràcies. Atentamente, Pitxiquin. Pitxiquin (talk) 14:03, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Hello. Please read our policies on WV:Tour and External links and Don't tout and Welcome, business owners. Tour agencies are a really sensible topic in Wikivoyage. Thanks for showing interest in engaging in constructive conversation. Most people do not. Ibaman (talk) 14:18, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

edit summary removed

Please do not overuse visibility censorship. Removing text from an article is not the same as adding offensive language or adding personal information about someone. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

The "Fuerdai on wheels" guy deserves full WV:Deny recognition. I'm vigilant and will do my best to not overuse my admin rights. Ibaman (talk) 20:47, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Dates (spelling out months)

FYI, WV Manual of Style says, "Abbreviate months to three letters—Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec—in lists, listings and where space is at a premium, such as in a table." (my emphasis) In other words, it points out an exception to the spelling out of months in full. Seligne (talk) 08:04, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

If you are around ...

... can you please block Special:Contributions/Modulation scheme for template vandalism? Thanks Maxim (talk) 18:46, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for showing no respect for other peoples' work, disregarding Talk discussions and removing significant portions of pages without discussing first. I am out of Wikivoyage. Keep whatever you want. I hope fewer people will behave like you in the future.

Revision deletion

Hi Ibaman. Thank you as always for helping out in the struggle against vandalism. A few pointers, though. Because this is a WMF site that operates according to the spirit of freely shared information and all that jazz, we have to be very judicious when it comes to revision deletion. One of the things a lot of people were concerned about when we started revision-deleting edits from the Fuerdai vandal, LibMod, and those guys is that the practice would become normalized and would start to be used against ordinary vandals as well. Obviously we don't want our editors referring to Somalia as "some garbage African country lol", but please take into account the difference between that kind of thing and, for example, doxing other editors, using the N-word, or making real-world threats. All vandalism should be reverted, but only the absolute most serious misconduct should be revision-deleted. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:20, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Request

Can you please tell me how we can the Auto-Patrolled rights here on Wiki Voyage? (Just asking.). Arep Ticous 15:37, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• Sure I can tell you. Admins can grant autopatroller status. Ibaman (talk) 16:38, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks... how long do you think it would take me to get the rights? Arep Ticous 16:40, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Apologies for this edit

I'm sorry about this, but User:190.153.65.158 has really made a mess of things by inserting lots of uncredited copypasta that had to be removed. Let me know if I can help you add back anything that is not copypasta. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:31, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Apologies for this edit

"Many articles in Wikivoyage can benefit from links to Wikipedia articles on the same subject."

I believed the links to be compliant. Can you edit the Wikipedia links to the way you believe to be official/preferred, rather than just repeatedly deleting them please? Thanks for being more constructive.

• Please state your case in Wikivoyage talk:Links to Wikipedia if you disagree with this policy. Thanks for the cooperation. Ibaman (talk) 15:28, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the policy. It appears that you do, or that you don't understand the policy. The policy states, "Many articles in Wikivoyage can benefit from links to Wikipedia articles on the same subject.", but it appears that you DO object to this, or that you don't understand the policy. Please revert your reversions.

• It's not only me; this style of linking is very, very frowned upon in WV. The community as a whole is always undoing such links whenever they appear. If I reverted, some other Admin would undo it. Please, please, with sugar on top, take it to the article's talk page if you really, strongly feel these WP links should stand. Ibaman (talk) 20:53, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your work today, reviewing and reverting edits. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:48, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

• My pleasure. Wikivoyage is the best. Ibaman (talk) 17:51, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Prague

Hello Ibaman, you have undo my changes to Prague page, but with not clear reasons. I have read the guidelines and posted an update based on that. Can you please tell what should be changed so it can be listed? Can you please tell what is the difference between my posting and the business listings listed there?? Thank you.—The preceding comment was added by Hejazz (talk • contribs)

• Thank YOU for the heads-up. Listings for "Escape games" and "tours" and such commercial activities are very frowned upon, per WV:Tour and Don't tout, and even more in the "big city" article; they could be listed in the proper district's article, with acceptable non-promotional language. Wikivoyage is no free advertisement space. Ibaman (talk) 18:52, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

To my knowledge, there's no rule against listing escape games; on the contrary, it's how you list them, and where you list them that is the issue. If you put listings for escape rooms in their proper district article, and don't use promotional language, there will be no problem. All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:00, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

• Still not clear what is the difference between the wording in my post here:

CityQuester Sightseeing Scavenger Hunt in Prague. CityQuester is type of city quest tour that combines a fun of scavenger hunt game with a private walking tour. Suitable for groups of all sizes. €15-18 per person depending on number of team members. and the wording of the other listing in the same section here: Treasure Hunt Prague, Treasure Hunt Prague is a dynamic team competition, that makes use of modern technology and GPS-enabled tablets and lets you visit a wide range of Prague's historical monuments in a record time. Suitable for larger groups and companies.

Posting "tout" templates on user pages

Hi, Ibaman, and thank you very much, as always, for your great and extensive work reverting spam and touting, etc., etc. I'd like to ask you, though, when you revert touting, please put the {{subst:tout}} template on the user's talk page. I often find myself following up by doing that, and I'm currently away from home with a very spotty Wi-Fi connection. It saves time to do that, because then any admin is justified in blocking the touter's posting privileges the next time, as they were duly warned.

Thanks a lot!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:59, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I try to never forget this. Will keep on trying. Let's go on improving this awesome travel guide. Ibaman (talk) 13:23, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Amen. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:17, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

request

Thank you for checking up on Mannar. I would really like some advice right now... if you are willing to give me a few pointers before starting again... Arep Ticous 13:34, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

• The Policies and the Manual of style are always the best place to start. Read them really well, please. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 13:41, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

From what you added about restaurants, I'd say one thing you should avoid is stating the obvious. If a piece of advice is true around the world, there is no need to put it in a specific destination article — except a country article, perhaps. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:27, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Blocks for indefinitely banned users evading their user blocks

...should be a minimum of 3 months for anonymous users (arguably more for IPv6 addresses, which are more stable than IPv4) and indefinite for registered accounts.

Good looking out, though. Keep up the vigilance.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:02, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

While I generally agree, this assertion about IP addresses is not supported by the text at Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Escalating user blocks: "Three-month block...For IP addresses (rather than user accounts), user blocks of longer duration than this should be avoided, as addresses may be re-assigned or have different users." Of course it says avoided and not never ever used, but we do have to consider IP address reassignment. And the text gives no consideration to the case of indefinitely-blocked folks using IP addresses to circumnavigate the block.

As is often the case on Wikivoyage, a proposal to extend the maximum to six months fizzled out after a few comments. I see little point in reopening the same discussion, but I think a modified proposal along the lines of Andre's argument would probably pass; deploying successively longer IP blocks for block-evading vandals or former Wikivoyagers. It's a common sense policy, but as ever it's better to specify it in writing, lest there be accusations of arbitrary use of admin powers.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:24, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• Yeah, the IP addresses are a fickle and volatile thing. As for my opinion, a week-long ban would work. But I won't argue, I will comply. Trolls shall not prevail. Ibaman (talk) 19:46, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

That policy is long overdue for a rewrite, and I'm disappointed to hear from TT that an earlier effort fizzled out. As far as I've heard, because we will essentially never run out of IPv6 addresses (there are 3.4 x 10³⁸ possible unique ones), they were designed to be used once and never recycled after they expire, so theoretically they can be blocked indefinitely without worries. In any event, since policy doesn't speak in absolute terms, I think it's probably okay to fudge the rules a little bit with IPv6 addresses. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:24, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

How can you tell what kind of IP address you're dealing with? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:14, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Ikan - 174.214.7.249 is an example of an IPv4 address. 2600:1017:B119:A8FA:6BE9:FF89:606C:8DD5 is an example of an IPv6 address. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:50, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

I see. So basically, if it's long and includes letters, you can block it essentially indefinitely. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Right. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:01, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

But that is unimportant. Blocking somebody every three months is no big deal. What user will return every three months to make a few edits and then wait out the new block anyway? Three months is plenty of time to forget about WV or find a way to get a new IP address. Long blocks are useful only if changing IP address is difficult. Ordinary home users get new addresses routinely, those with a server that needs a static address probably have the know-how to get parallel disposable addresses, and where the IP address is out of the user's control, such as in schools and libraries, many other people will probably be affected. --LPfi (talk) 07:39, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Attica

Why revert my edits?--2A02:587:440A:5D3A:6D37:3E36:48CC:C19E 13:03, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

• We have an obvious policy, you know. When the first sentence of an article says " It's the region of Athens the Greek capital", it becomes unimportant to reaffirm it on every other sentence. Ibaman (talk) 13:42, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

1 is the historic region of athens city-State 2 Lavrion and rafina serves as the alternative ports of Athens 3 perfectures no more existed, now is region since 2010. Sorry for my english--2A02:587:440A:5D3A:6D37:3E36:48CC:C19E 14:41, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Tone and negative review

Hello Ibaman, You have undone some edit on Baliem Valley. It is a good thing has the sentence was not neutral enough. Thus, I think people should be aware of behaviours which are ungoing there. If 'acting like savage' is clearly inappropriate, avoiding children seating on benchs is a fact and participates in the tourism experience. Perhaps adding the date ? Giving more information about ongoing context ?

Thank you four your help.

Emmanuel

• Here's the text you mention: " This is very touristic event with tourists and indonesian police behaving like papuan people are savages : taking photos of people as attractions, forbiding the access to shed bench to papuan children...". Frankly, it's not very comprehensible. It could be written more clearly. Ibaman (talk) 12:51, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Kankakee

Why did you mass up my edit about the FLW home? Now, there's no link or an explanation of what "home" means!

Please get back to me ASAP,

~CavSquad

You blocked an IP address

Thanks for doing that. I found an instance of unreverted vandalism by him and reverted it. Bellingham (Washington) --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:47, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Community Insights Survey

Share your experience in this survey

Hi Ibaman,

The Wikimedia Foundation is asking for your feedback in a survey about your experience with Wikivoyage and Wikimedia. The purpose of this survey is to learn how well the Foundation is supporting your work on wiki and how we can change or improve things in the future. The opinions you share will directly affect the current and future work of the Wikimedia Foundation.

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Sincerely,

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Edit conflicts

Sorry, mate, it seems your reply to our IP friend was lost due to my editing at the same time. If you want to restore it, be my guest. I think we should allow freedom of speech on talk pages, as long as it's about the article.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:25, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Why do you keep editing the Middle East article back to its inaccurate nature?

Why do you keep editing the Middle East article back to its inaccurate nature?

the Middle East is not synonymous with Western Asia nor is it exclusive to West Asia. Why did you re-edit back? This is the correct introduction... "The Middle East is a region in western Asia and north-eastern Africa. The term was created by British military strategists in the 19th century, and definitions of the Middle East vary; it is not simply a geographical term, but also a political one, connoting that it separates Europe ("the West") from the Far East." Saying Egypt is not part of the Middle East but part of Africa is just as ignorant as saying "Saudi Arabia is part of Asia, not the Middle East". The Middle East has never been a continent nor is it synonymous with West Asia. Africa and Asia are continents, the Middle East is a transcontinental region(extends to multiple continents) that is geopolitical meaning its geographical territory is solely based on shared Politics, shared Culture and shared History rather than a shared continent.

Also Where is Cairo? Why is the capital of the region not Added? Cairo is literally the Cultural and political center of the Middle East yet it is not included here? hmm and when I tried to include it, you oblivious people deleted it. Why don't you actually let people from the region like me give you an advice on what is the Middle East instead of being completely oblivious and deleting accurate and correct edits? and why are their contradictions on your article? At one point in the article you acknowledge that Egypt is a Middle Eastern country and another section Egypt and Turkey are under the "Go next" section, implying that Egypt and Turkey are not in the Region as is they were a different destinations to go next after a trip to the Middle East. It is like saying "im going to Saudi Arabia After I get our of the Middle East" which is baffling

The Middle East's geographical territory is solely based on shared politics, shared history and shared culture rather than a shared continent which is not the criteria of the region’s geographical makeup. 

Anyways, the geographical territory of the Middle East was created way before the Western term. It was created by Arab geographers and Historians such as ibn Khaldun in the Middle Ages and the main criteria was to split the Western Berber Arab countries(Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco) from the Arab mainlands(Egypt, the Levant, The Arabian peninsula and Iraq) the non Arab countries were added to the list when the western terms were created in the 19th and 20th century(Iran, Turkey, Israel and Cyprus). Anyways, the western part of the Arab world was called the “Maghreb” which is an Arabic word meaning “Where the sun sets” referring to the Western part of the Arab world, the other half of the Arab world, if you will.

Also context is very important when it comes to geopolitical regions and I want to bring up something regarding North Africa and that is when we say “North Africa” in modern terms, we are actually talking about the Maghreb Berber region rather than the literal meaning of “North Africa” which originally used to simply mean the Northern upper part of Africa. So we are talking about Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya not Egypt. Egypt is in the Middle Eastern region.

"North African ethnicity Many people from the North African region known as the Maghreb (which encompasses modern-day Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya) trace their roots to the Berbers of antiquity."

• First of all, it's not "my" article. This community has been toiling over it for more than ten years now. As for myself, I have been in arguments like this more than I like to count, on several articles (but this one is a perennial polemic, unsurprisingly). To mantain an online travel guide like ours, the way geography must be subdivided might never satisfy every member of this community. I would even invite you to witness similar situations in Talk:United States of America or Talk:Lima. That's why we work by discussion and consensus. The questions you raised today have been already discussed several times before; that's why I asked you to read all the discussion. All this time and energy spent over this discussion will not automatically be discarded just because a new user shows up claiming to have definitive solutions. You have the option to understand and join the discussion "the Wikivoyage way", argue your point, achieve consensus, and then make necessary changes; you also could invent the "ArabPridePedia" and write whatever strikes your fancy, and never have to argue or justify your edits. Hope you get the point. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 21:00, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Great Lakes

I was adding some updated information about the Great Lakes, particularly with regard to Cruising. I tried to follow the general approach of Cruising on the Baltic (https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Cruising_the_Baltic_Sea -- as a note, I do realize I left some fragments from that, for which I apologize). However, my edits were deleted.

Some of those were frankly corrections (e.g. adding some of the other Cruising Companies), but it was all deleted. I'd like to go back and still make some edits, but before I do so I'd like to know what specifically caused the deletion so that I don't cross that line again.

Thank you for your assistance and consideration. I actually want to get this right.

• Thank YOU for your concern. I became worried to notice what seemed to me aggregator and travel planning sites; these are unacceptable per our External links#what not to link to and WV:Goals and non-goals policies. Also, you'll notice in the article's history of edits, there were some links to "cities" that I formatted properly, and got messed up in the meantime. This raised my alert level in the "unwanted edits" zone; I apologize for the full hasty revert and thank you again for your attention and concern. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 23:15, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

post codes in Germany

In one of your recent edits to Berlin/East Central you removed a bunch of post codes (the five digits before the city name). I think this was ill advised, as post codes get pretty fine grained in Germany and often help disambiguate streets with the same name in big cities - such as Berlin. If you enter "Goethestraße 15 Berlin" into a navigation device or Google without a postcode, you won't get where you want to go... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:18, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

This might be better as a policy discussion. Wikivoyage doesn't use postcodes in its articles at all, with the exception of the UK, because postcodes there aid navigation. If Germany has a similar benefit, of course an exception can be made there too, but it should be handled at a community level, so we can all be on the same page and roll out the changes across Germany articles (if agreed upon) rather than the two of you deciding something for a single district article. That way, we're consistent with our policy, and we can adopt a better practice across the wiki, rather than piecemeal.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:45, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• I see and respect your point, Hobbitschuster. I figured out that to make the listings on the East Central Berlin nightclubs cleaner would do no harm whatsoever to the traveller; if it was Dresden or Freiburg I'd do otherwise. If you feel it's better to restore them, let's do it. Ibaman (talk) 23:15, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I think I raised the issue once in the pub of postcodes in Germany and despite most people agreeing there was no movement. I think we should do the policy change if we can find wherever that policy is but in the absence of this restore the listings to their former postcode including state... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:09, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

I vaguely remember the Pub conversation you mention. Wonder where it was swept to. Somehow I found the policy; it's at Wikivoyage:Listings#Template parameters. Wouldn't the state be the same for every address in East Central Berlin, i.e. Berlin? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:46, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

• Postcodes restored. The district is huge, not all nightclubs are in the same neighborhood, hence the varying postcodes. Ibaman (talk) 18:08, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Vandalism on Philippines page

We're dealing with some IPs vandalizing the Philippines page, and I've reverted an edit done two days ago. I'm inclined to request semi-protection for the page, but I think it's better to temporarily block the IP addresses which have been vandalizing the "Regions" section with vulgar messages (doing a semi might be too hard for IPs doing constructive edits). TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:20, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Reminder: Community Insights Survey

Share your experience in this survey

Hi Ibaman,

A couple of weeks ago, we invited you to take the Community Insights Survey. It is the Wikimedia Foundation’s annual survey of our global communities. We want to learn how well we support your work on wiki. We are 10% towards our goal for participation. If you have not already taken the survey, you can help us reach our goal! Your voice matters to us.

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Sincerely,

RMaung (WMF) 19:13, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Guided Tours section

Hi, I saw that you removed the "Guided Tours" section of https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch_Country. Thanks for the message. I'm not an employee of the business. I'm a local (I live in Lancaster County) that was simply adding it because I've took a scooter tour using that business in June and thought that guided tours would be a helpful section to have. Many people come to Pennsylvania Dutch Country to learn more about the Amish and they do that through guided tours. I'd be happy to add some other tour companies to the list if that would be better. Let me know. Thanks! JustinSayin (talk) 07:40, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

South Korea

In the pub, there is a discussion explaining the unusual edits taking place for South Korea articles. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:42, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Gurgaon Changes

Hi Ibaman,

Regarding the undo action https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Gurgaon&oldid=3853806 about Link Hijacking: I was trying to change a verifiably bad place to stay with a better rated option. I'm not sure why it was considered as hijacking, I have no affiliation with either properties but I do try to maintain the Gurgaon page from time to time. What is the appropriate action here?

Rbtravel (talk) 10:41, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

• Thanks for the heads-up. I've adjusted the article accordingly. Ibaman (talk) 13:40, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

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Edit warring

In this edit with summary "Undo revision 3863191 by W.carter (talk) reverted again for same reasons. PLEASE DO NOT EDIT WAR", I should point out that you yourself are edit warring. Edit warring is simply the repeated reverting of someone else's edit without attempting first to seek and achieve consensus. On a wiki, there is nothing special about any revision. You can't just join in with the war to force whichever version you think should be kept and then keep it there with a warning to others. For what it is worth AndreCarrotflower has realised their mistake at the discussion on Commons. It is quite ridiculous to keep this fake photo on WikiVoyage. I think you owe W.carter and Paul 012 an apology, and if it hasn't been reverted back to a natural leaf-colour version already, please revert your revert. -- Colin (talk) 14:14, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

• Andre is a Wikivoyage administrator, and has been for much longer than I am. We are part of the maintenance team of this great online travel guide, and have worked together for many years on a daily basis. To revert an edit of his will always be perceived by me, if I'm unaware of previous context, as unacceptable edit warring on our travel guide. I stand by his decisions and his edits and whatever he cares to tell me personally about this situation. Ibaman (talk) 15:59, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm active at Commons as well as Wikivoyage, and I agree with Colin and other Commoners on this one and have stated so to Andre. What's more, Andre has come around on this. Look at User talk:AndreCarrotflower#Khlong Lan Waterfall images. Time to give up on this one, IMO. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:04, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

When you screw up and make a fool of yourself online, it is really best to show some humility, accept you made a bad move, and apologise. Instead you have just dug yourself into a bigger hole trying to rationalise your actions. Andre is human and thus fallible. Administrators have no more right to decide content on any wikimedia site than other users. Administrators should not show favouritism in a dispute. Our principles of Assume Good Faith apply to all editors. Your statement says that you assume bad faith on anyone who reverts Andre. You really need to stop that. That's quite fundamentally wrongheaded. Furthermore, in this situation, it makes you both look like foolish bullies because both of you were edit warring to retain a fake. So, I repeat that you owe Cart and Paul an apology. -- Colin (talk) 14:57, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Ibaman, I sincerely appreciate your faith in my judgment as administrator, but the previous commenters are correct: my earlier revert was based on mistaken information. I remain opposed to deletion of the image on Commons, but as far as usage on Wikivoyage is concerned, I think it's best to replace the picture with something else. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:22, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

However, I am going to push back on the penultimate sentence of Colin's most recent comment. Colin, you said yourself that we're "human and thus fallible". Ibaman and myself were both misinformed as to whether the leaves change color seasonally at Khlong Lan, and the user who reverted the edit the first time had no previous contribution history at Wikivoyage. So it looked at first as if we were dealing with an agenda-pushing newbie. Dealing with (i.e. reverting) edits of that nature is something that happens routinely at Wikivoyage, as I imagine is also the case at Commons and on other wikis. In the end Paul turned out not to be a newbie at all, and we all gave our mea culpas, so I hope you can appreciate now why bandying about phrases like "foolish bullies" and "edit warring" is not constructive at this juncture. Our actions were no more foolish and no more bully-ish than any other innocent mistake that people make in life. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:37, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

• Andre, we're a team. We work together, we win together, we lose together. So the previous commenters were correct, and our reverts were based on mistaken information. Duly acknowledged. I stand corrected. Cart and Paul and Colin please accept my mea culpa on this package. Now let's get back to our usual business of building awesome travel guides. Ibaman (talk) 18:52, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Ibaman, we're a team, but my colleagues from Wikimedia Commons have a point. All of us make mistakes, and I don't think you need to or even should assume other admins are always right. Yes, of course that includes me. I'm also sometimes a bit unsure that touters should be blocked when they've greatly reduced the amount of touting, suggesting some kind of effort to comply with our policies. It's OK that we sometimes differ on that, as it's a matter of degree, but let's remain thinking individuals, regardless of what work we've volunteered to do on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:29, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

I've seen the discussion on Commons, and am aware of the discussion's contents. I regret jumping on it while unsure of the whole context; I also regret some of my actions and comments, made without much ponderation, missing the Wikimedia Commons users' point. Ibaman (talk) 12:31, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for being on vandal patrol. This is important for keeping Wikivoyage a useful travel guide. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 19:19, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

• Thank YOU for ALL your tweaks about WV:tdf, WV:units, WV:$, Words to avoid and so forth, and for correcting my edits when needed. Our team is the best. Long live Wikivoyage. Ibaman (talk) 20:25, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Ephrata (Pennsylvania)

Understand that listing should not be in a region, but suggest helping a newby rather than just a simple undo. I have moved the entry to Ephrata (Pennsylvania), hopefully it will encourage them to contribute more. --Traveler100 (talk) 02:32, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Whoa

A vandal that had the audacity to impersonate Wikipedia's Arbitration Committee... Ypsilon (talk) 14:21, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

• Yeah, he's trying to make it stick on Wikibooks right now. I wish I knew how to ring the alarm, wiki-globally-wise. Ibaman (talk) 14:29, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Will you PLEASE stop SHOUTING at people?!

Hello mate. Don't worry. We're cool.

Has anyone ever told you that typing in all caps (like in the manner I demonstrated above) comes across shouty?

Perhaps you mean to use all caps for emphasis, well in that case you can choose italics, bold, *asterisks*, ~tildes~, or any other way you can think of that emphatically emphasises emphasis in an emphatic way. But the consensus on the internets is that all caps means shouting.

Put yourself in different shoes for a minute. You're a new user, you're trying to improve this cool new travel guide you've discovered, and are especially interested in promoting your home town. You've suddenly realised that contributing is not as straightforward as it initially seemed, you can't just edit however you like without people questioning you, and now people are deleting your content. This can be intimidating, but after a day or two you decide to join in a discussion with these people and work out a consensus. You still don't quite understand why the other people are doing what they're doing, so you ask the question. Then a guy with 'site administrator' next to his user name comes along and barks at you "DID YOU EVEN READ THE POLICY? DO NOT ADD ANY MORE IMAGES." How are you going to feel?

OK, I'm exaggerating slightly and glossing over the fact you said please and thank you as well in your post on Talk:Soest. But I'm doing so because I've seen you use all caps at people, usually IP users or newbies, on a number of occasions, in edit summaries and on talk pages. And the general feeling such comments convey whether you intend it or not is "this angry dude is shouting". I don't think that's how you want to come across.

As administrators, you and I both repeat the same stuff to newbies endlessly: "don't tout", "please don't change this without the blessed approval of the Holy consensus", "of course it's in Krakow, Poland, this is the Krakow/Kazimierz article", "bloody located in a great location situated next to the sunset", "too many images!"

It gets boring. It's frustrating.

But each newbie only has that conversation once or twice ever (lucky sods) so when we show our frustration at a newbie for not understanding, we're not being fair to that individual. We don't show our best face to that person. We effectively tell them "I can't be bothered to deal with your shit" even when that may not be true. We tell them "You're not welcome here." even when that definitely isn't true.

Would you be okay with not 'shouting' in future?

Thanks as ever for your great commitment to Wikivoyage. If I'm being critical, it comes from a place of friendship and respect, and because I think you'll get what I'm saying.

Sorry for the long-winded post. All the best, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:32, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

• Don't need to be sorry. I'm conscious that it was an overreaction. I'm conscious that, sometimes, I overplay the "this angry dude is shouting" stance, to emphasize the seriousness with which I carry out my admin duties in Wikivoyage. For a number of reasons, lately my threshold of patience is somewhat low. I'm conscious of all that. All that matters here to me is the creation and maintenance of a great online travel guide. Everything else is secondary. I will try to get creative, not boring or frustrating, on this matter. Thanks for the heads-up. Ibaman (talk) 15:49, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. I know you take your duties here very seriously. You work very hard on here and, I suspect, in your real job too. If for any reason you ever find that anything or anyone on here is getting on top of you, know that you have a team around you that can step in and take the slack. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:14, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for this discussion. Ibaman, please note my reply in that thread. I'm sorry you're having a hard time in real life. However, if I were in your shoes, I'd probably delete my remark and put an apology in my edit summary. Think about it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:33, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

• Your advice is always sound and helpful, IK. It's a fact, this is not the happiest time to be a Brazilian working with environmental issues. However, I should not, must not, will not vent this unhappiness on our travel guide. I did just what you suggested. It was the best thing to do. Ibaman (talk) 17:53, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I absolutely relate to that. Very dark times for the Americas. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:22, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Why not fun?

Dear Ibaman: https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Hong_Kong&diff=3889422&oldid=3889415 Why my edit is not fun? Listing offices from the same country as "consulates" implies they are not in one country, it's weird. --行到水穷处 (talk) 13:01, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• WV:SH. Your edit breaks the site-wide consistency of headings and subheadings. It's the longest subheading ever. It looks ugly and out of line with WV:Manual of Style. This is the reason. I hope you don't take it personal. Ibaman (talk) 13:30, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
• You are escaping the problem. I understand the rationalities of these rules of wikivoyage, and also sorry for my unfamiliarity with them. But offices from Beijing and Taipei are not consulates, please help to find a way to state this fact correctly, thank you! --行到水穷处 (talk) 16:43, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

The official name is already stated in the listing. As I said, the traveller comes first, and those offices are where people in Hong Kong need to go to get mainland Chinese or Taiwanese visas, so even though they are not official consulates, they are effectively consulates from a traveller's perspective. For the same reason, we list Hong Kong as a separate country even though it is technically part of China, because it has a separate legal system and different immigration requirements so from a traveller's perspective, it feels like a different country. Politics does not matter here. All we care about is what the traveller's experience is. The dog2 (talk) 16:52, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

• I stand by TheDog2 and his justification for this edit: "They may not be officially called consulates, but because they are where you to go to get visas, they effectively function as consulates from a traveller's perspective." The traveller comes first. The aforementioned offices, technically, are not consulates, BUT they are indeed the places to go to get visas, THEREFORE they effectively function as consulates from a traveller's perspective. Simpler is better. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. Please don't try to fix what ain't broke. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 16:53, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
• Thanks for your reply, I have a proposal, adding "As the relationships are not country-to-country, China Mainland and Taiwan don't have consulates in Hong Kong. However, offices with similar functions are set, also listed here." to that paragranph, is this breaks any rule of wikivoyage? --行到水穷处 (talk) 16:56, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Done I must say I think the added bit is borderline obvious, but, hey, it's done. Ibaman (talk) 18:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

I've adjusted it slightly. Our job here is not to take sides with regard to the independence movements in Hong Kong and Taiwan, but solely to provide information about the situation on the ground and how it affects travellers. The dog2 (talk) 18:38, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks!--行到水穷处 (talk) 04:36, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Annotated radio station list in Seattle

Hi, Ibaman. I reverted your deletion of that list, because we've allowed such lists in other articles. Please feel free to start a discussion at Talk:Seattle, or if you'd like to make it a global one, Wikivoyage talk:Listings or Wikivoyage talk:Avoid long lists, I suppose. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:29, 27 November 2019 (UTC)