Hello, Mr. Granger! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.--ϒpsilon (talk) 05:01, 26 March 2014 (UTC)


I'm enjoying your pagebanners. Thanks! Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:45, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Glad to hear it! Mr. Granger (talk) 11:12, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

You have reverted my travel guide to Somaliland which is different from Somalia,there are thousands of Bussiness people.UN workers oversea somalis who depend on travelling to somalia even with security guard now i have updated from my own experience pics and reference.you were quick to revert them with out any reason.you have caused a lot of foreign bussiness people a great deal of pain

Thanks for the message. Updates are very welcome, but please respect the formatting and organization of the page. For example, don't radically change the headings, and don't remove the templates at the bottom of the page. See Wikivoyage:Country article template for the structure that a country article like Somalia should have. I've incorporated some of your updates into the existing structure of the article—you're welcome to add more, but please maintain the overall organization of the article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 06:35, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the banner update on Bonavista Peninsula! I knew it wasn't cropped to the correct ratio, but am running a random garbage netbook with no decent ability to really do anything. So I was hoping someone would see and fix the image. Glad you did. Cheers! Pbaribeau (talk) 01:11, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome! Thanks for creating the article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:43, 21 June 2017 (UTC)


Thanks for your assistance in cleaning up dead links! It's been great to see so many people updating old information now that outdated links have been flagged. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:31, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

No problem! I fix dead links now and then on Wikipedia, where there are some 70,000 currently tagged (and that's after a massive bot cleanup effort that was recently undertaken—there used to be hundreds of thousands). Since there are only a few thousand here, I feel like I can make more of a dent in them. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:38, 8 May 2016 (UTC)


Hi Are there boat tours in San Rafael?😐 BulbAtop (talk) 02:56, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi BulbAtop. Yes! Barbary Ghost apparently offers cruises through the canal. That's the only one I know of, but you might also be able to find boat tours around Marin or the Bay Area that pass by San Rafael. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:55, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for updatingEdit

Thanks a lot for updating not only URLs but also menu prices for New York restaurants - really helpful! Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:13, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

No problem! —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:51, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Beccles and BungayEdit

Thanks for creating the redirects. I had thought about doing it but was unsure so held back (to avoid what seems a bit of effort to get pages deleted). I was unsure about combining the two towns to a single destination (Wikipedia keeps them separate) but thought that from a travel perspective they are both too small to warrant their own pages but are significant enough to justify being covered so ended up combining them - hope I made the right decision. PsamatheM (talk) 21:46, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

No problem! I think when places are combined like this, redirects are useful, both to facilitate linking and to help readers who search for one of the places. As for whether to combine the towns or not, I can't really say, but the article looks good to me. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:55, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

O'Hare International Airport redirect??Edit

Please explain this. Same exact name, right, or am I missing something? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:41, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a similar redirect [1]—one title uses a "curly" apostrophe ( ’ ) and the other uses a "straight" apostrophe ( ' ). Our article is located at the title with the straight apostrophe, but I found that someone had written the name of the airport with a curly apostrophe in the article Northfield (Illinois), so when I added a wikilink it didn't work. I figured I'd go ahead and create the redirect so that that link (and any similar ones added to other articles in the future) would work. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:52, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
I struggle to see the difference, but I get it now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:25, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

An award for you!Edit

  The Wikivoyage Barncompass
As thanks for months and years of valuable contributions to Wikivoyage, please have a Barncompass. :) ϒpsilon (talk) 07:05, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Thank you! —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:21, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Page banner captionsEdit

Hi Mx. Granger! Thanks for adding banners to several articles. If you could, it's usually considered good practice to add a caption to those banners unless they clearly just show a skyline or something. So, for example, on Southern Tier, it would be nice to have a caption explaining what that building is and where it's located. Powers (talk) 21:28, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know! I added a caption to the Southern Tier banner, and I'll try to include them in the future. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:42, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's a radio telescope!Edit

And it's been used to transmit signals to possible alien civilisations. I understand your point, and would ordinarily agree, but the comment about it possibly being the largest in the universe was an intentional nod to Arecibo's role in the SETI projects - and to a lesser extent, its role in The X Files :) I'd like to reinstate, but don't want to tread on your toes if you really don't like that line. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:09, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm familiar with SETI and the Arecibo message, but I don't think the line really tells readers very much. We don't really have any reason to think it's the largest one in the universe, unless you think humans are the most technologically advanced beings in the universe (which seems unlikely to me and would make projects like SETI fairly worthless if it's true). But the line is technically true and vaguely related to the topic of the fact, so I won't make a fuss if you put it back. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you! If someone else removes it, it'll stay out. I hope it's not the largest either, but decades of radio silence seems to defy all logic... hence the Fermi Paradox :) Fascinating topic. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:55, 10 October 2017 (UTC)


I think I'll start hiding instances of "seemingly-straightforward" around Wikivoyage for you to find and correct. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:56, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Hahaha, well, it probably won't be my top priority... —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:20, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Marking one's own passportEdit

Hi, just a quickie (hopefully). I think it should be made clear here where the illegality of marking one's own passport applies. Is it against Peruvian law? If not, how can we be sure that it is against the law of the traveller's home country? Many countries have laws against passport defacement, but those laws are unlikely to match up, and are probably not universal. In the UK for instance, "reasonable wear and tear" is allowed, but for anything beyond this deliberately vague threshold, passport replacement is merely advised, as it "may not" allow you to travel otherwise, rather than required, which suggests that defacing a British passport is not illegal as such. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:27, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Good point. I find it hard to imagine that it's against Peruvian law, but I don't know. I've never heard of anyone actually getting in trouble for getting these kinds of souvenir stamps (which exist at other places besides Machu Picchu as well), which is why I restored the word "technically". I don't know, maybe it would be better to remove the entire comment about it being technically illegal to mark your own passport. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:34, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
Well if it can't be established who it is illegal for and where, it probably would be better to remove the comment :-) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:50, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

brand newEdit

Thanks! Great initiative to tidy things up. Andrewssi2 (talk) 18:56, 1 January 2018 (UTC)


Hi. Regarding your edit to Rail travel in the United States, I must disagree. Brightline may currently only operate along a rather short route, but they are by their nature distinct from a commuter railroad and their current short service is just a stopgap until their full stretch is built. I am rather certain that they could not sustain operations over just this short stretch and will thus either expand towards Orlando and Miami or withdraw service in a few years' time. Thus I do think they merit their own bullet point. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:34, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

I understand that Brightline is still growing and their future is uncertain, but from a traveller's perspective at this time, how is it more important than, say, the South Shore Line in Chicagoland, the Front Runner in Utah, and Caltrain in the Bay Area? None of those lines have their own paragraphs, nor do the numerous other short-distance rail systems in the US. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:39, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
There is a difference that travelers might care about, at least as far as I understand it. Brightline apparently uses or plans to use dynamic pricing and sells tickets via app and internet. I am not sure most commuter railroads do this. So if you book a Caltrain ticket at the station, no problem, the price is the same at any given time. Brightline apparently not so much... However, maybe we should agree for the time being to not list it prominently (a single link somewhere might still be wise due to some unique features) but to revisit the issue and perhaps give it a proper listing type thingy when service to more destinations starts... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:44, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
The dynamic pricing sounds interesting and different, but it doesn't sound like it makes Brightline any more important for travellers than the other rail systems I mentioned, as far as I can tell. Anyway, when it expands to Miami and Orlando it'll be pretty large, so I agree we should revisit the issue at that time. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:53, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Night in the dayEdit

I noted your confusion about the day in the polar night. The polar night is the opposite of the "nightless nights" you encounter in the Nordic (or Antarctic) summer: in midwinter the sun is below the horizon all day, so it is more or less night all the time. "In the day" during the polar night means the hours when your watch shows it should be day (there is usually some twilight, depending on season and how far north you are). I hope the wording in Northern Lights makes sense after reading this (see also Midnight sun which explains the phenomena). If you can clarify it, you are welcome. --LPfi (talk) 11:47, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification—I'm familiar with the polar night, but was confused by the phrase "Day Northern Lights". I'll try to clarify it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:34, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Airport exchange ratesEdit

Hi there. You are right, the "surprisingly" was maybe a little overdrawn. However, I have been to Taiwan and Egypt lately—two completely different countries for that matter—and you would be surprised how incredible close the exchange rates at the airport were to the interbank ones, just about 1 % off. Some countries just remain stuck in the past apparently. ;-) Cheers, Ceever (talk) 14:50, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Miras for thrill seekersEdit

Just what I read somewhere. But I will check it out and correct if wrong. ;-) Ceever (talk) 01:54, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good! I've never been to Minas (except riding through it on the way to other places), but from what I've heard it seems to be mostly known for old mines, rolling hills, and alfajores. There could well be other attractions there that I don't know about, though. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:57, 27 January 2018 (UTC)


Sorry, did not see the rest there. :-) Thanks, Ceever (talk) 23:44, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Connect headersEdit

Hi there

Can we not get rid of the Connect chapters? I do not see when and with what most of them would ever be filled in the times of the Internet.

Also, most other WV article, except for maybe South America omit this chapter, which is what the manual of style says if no information is to be expected. Though, it does not mention this explicitely for Connect.

I feel for about 90 % of all article for Uruguay and Argentina that have this chapter, it is empty. Where is the added value for the traveller? Why do you need it?

Cheers, Ceever (talk) 20:04, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Most major cities in Uruguay have free public WiFi available somewhere. I've added this information to some Uruguay articles, including Colonia, Durazno, Florida (city, Uruguay), and Rocha. It would be nice for other Uruguay city articles to have it too. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:14, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
Yes, that is fine. But in general, do we want to downgrade articles that are quite good with an empty "Connect". We can of course always add it if information is available, but I feel the general consensus on WV seems to be to hide empty Connect chapters, at least for most articles I have worked on.
How about giving me this little gift, and I promise to continue adding more information on Argentina. :-)
Cheers, Ceever (talk) 23:05, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
As User:LPfi said at User talk:Ceever#What sections can be omitted, it is useful to keep empty section headers for sections that should have information, because it lets prospective editors know that something needs to be added. Please do continue adding information about Argentina, though. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:06, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
That is inconsistent. As there are sections that can be omitted, prospective editors will not be able to fill these, according to this reasoning. Give me a reason. Ceever (talk) 01:10, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
As I've already said, most major cities in Uruguay have free public WiFi available somewhere, and it would be nice for this information to be included in the articles. The empty section headers are a signal to prospective editors that the information should be added. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:16, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

An award for you!Edit

  The Wikivoyage Barncompass
For tireless clean up of deadlinks in country articles. Ground Zero (talk) 00:22, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks! It's good to know the effort is appreciated :) —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:51, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Planning a Trip Around America, potentially including San RafaelEdit


I'm planning a trip around America at the moment, and have some questions about San Rafael that I would like answered by a local, not by a travel corporation that wants my money. Is there some way I can contact you that is more private? - I'm not really comfortable putting all my travel details out for everyone to see.

Thank you so much! —The preceding comment was added by DJ TLmayo (talkcontribs)

Yes! You can email me using the "Email this user" link in the sidebar on the left of this page, or using this link. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:18, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Blank spaceEdit


I notice you've reverted the blank space in the Brazil article. I've been adding them to country articles (when illustrating them), because I think it looks crammed, ugly and sometimes outright annoying when the sidebar pushes down the maps/pictures from next to the text they belong halfway down the article. This is usually even worse in articles like Brazil with more than one map. Much better to have a white space there (which could be filled with text like has been done e.g. in the Colombia article). Just my opinion. --ϒpsilon (talk) 16:56, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree that it's less than ideal when the map gets pushed away from the text that it corresponds to, but that's not the case in Brazil—the map is still next to the list of regions, at least on my computer. In contrast, I think the big white space is a bit of an eyesore and requires unnecessary scrolling. It's not that important to me, though—if you want the white space, I won't revert it again. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:05, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
OK, in my summary to my last edit I tried to write that the setup isn't that bad compared to many other country articles, but accidentially hit enter prematurely :P. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:12, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Haha, fair enough. I definitely do see the value of having the white space in some articles, like American Samoa, where the space is not that big and the layout looks pretty strange without it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:15, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

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You recently added Shunde at Pearl_River_Delta#Cities, but it is already mentioned under Foshan. Could you please reduce it to one mention? I do not think it matters much which. Pashley (talk) 03:59, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

It does matter which since the intro says "eight prefectures named for their main cities which we list below." Shunde does not have a prefecture & should not be on that list, so I'll delete it. Putting it back would be OK only if you rewrite the intro & I do not think that is a good idea. Pashley (talk)
Okay. In that case I guess Houjie needs to be removed too. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:05, 9 May 2018 (UTC)


What about Saaremaa and Hiiumaa? Are you also going to convert them to city articles? Ceever (talk) 11:51, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

There seems to be a separate article about a city in Saaremaa, so while the current setup for that article isn't good, I'm not sure how best to resolve it. Hopefully someone else will be able to figure out whether it's better to merge Kuressaare into Saaremaa, keep them as two separate city articles, create articles for other places on the island, or some other solution. As for Hiiumaa, it does look like a city article currently, so I'll adjust that now. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:06, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


After the time when I upgraded some articles that you didn't think I should have upgraded, I want to check with you about some itineraries I just upgraded to usable status: Trans-Siberian Highway and Interstate 5. Selfie City (talk) 17:36, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree, they look usable. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:39, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks; sorry for responding so late. Selfie City (talk) 20:43, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

two maps (Uruguay)Edit

Hi! I won't revert your revert, but I'd say until we can export dynamic maps as static maps, having two maps (one of them clickable, with city/main attraction photos) is better than one static map... I have done it like this for many places already in any case... Andree.sk (talk) 12:15, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, then would it be better to just use the dynamic map and get rid of the static map? Two maps giving roughly the same information just seems like a lot of clutter to me. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:27, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
I would prefer that, esp. when the regions masks are also shown in the dynamic maps (like "here") - unfortunately the dynamic maps aren't exported in any way to offline versions (such as what can be viewed by kiwix)... :-( On the other hand, often the static maps are out of date with the article, and there's hardly anyone who would fix them, I guess. But as usual, this is a complicated topic - perhaps we could discuss it on pub or somewhere? In any case it'll surely take many weeks/months to come to a conclusion. I'd rather use the 2 maps in the meantime, and we can later cleanup (e.g. remove the staticmap=...) Andree.sk (talk) 13:17, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
It seems to me it would be better to use one map (static or dynamic, it doesn't matter to me which one) in the meantime. But if you want to use two, I won't argue. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:34, 1 July 2018 (UTC)


I'm trying to inform readers about what to do if you get lost hiking in the East Bay. This means that I need to include quite a few "might" and "could" examples in case someone loses their way. Would you consider what I've written in Hiking_in_the_East_Bay#Stay_safe to be harmful speculation. Just checking. Selfie City (talk) 21:49, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. I can't really tell just from reading the section whether the information is speculation or not, but I don't see any red flags. If it's based on your own or others' experience or drawn from other sources, I think it's good. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:09, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Apology, Article requestsEdit

Sorry, I went ahead and slushed some outdated nominations without realizing you commented with a disagreement. I think the best solution would be to change the name "Slush pile" to something like "Outdated nominations" or "Archives". What do you think? (Just to make clear, we're not removing nominations, just archiving them.) What do you think? Selfie City (talk) 03:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

How about "older nominations", so as not to suggest that they are no longer valid, just a separate group? Ground Zero (talk) 03:28, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
That does sound better to me. Maybe "older requests" or "older suggestions". —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:35, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
They are "Requested articles", so "Older requests" seems to be the best fit. Ground Zero (talk) 03:44, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
I think either would work. Selfie City (talk) 13:49, 14 August 2018 (UTC)


With regards to my edit that you reverted, "obligatory" of course does not mean the restaurant will force you to order it. Of course, you are free to order whatever you like, and the restaurant isn't going to complain as long as you are paying up. What I meant is that is is obligatory from a cultural perspective. I have Cantonese relatives myself, so I am somewhat familiar with Cantonese dining culture, and whenever you eat dim sum with Cantonese people, it is almost a given that they will order those two dishes. The philosophy behind this tradition is that because shrimp dumplings and pork dumplings are so simple, every restaurant should be able to make them, and if you can't make even such simple dishes well, chances are your other dishes won't be good. Moreover, because they require minimal seasoning, the belief is that ordering those two dishes will allow you to gauge the freshness of the restaurant's seafood and meat. I hope this clarifies what I meant by that. No restaurant will force you to order those two dishes, but if you dine with Cantonese people, they will expect you to order them. The dog2 (talk) 15:50, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. In my opinion, your original phrasing ("Cantonese diners always order...") is a clearer way to convey that—saying "obligatory" in this context invites confusion. (There are restaurants where it actually is obligatory to get X or Y, in the sense that if you insist you don't want it, they'll charge you for it anyway. I've even been to an all-you-can-eat sushi restaurant where eating rice is obligatory—if you just eat the fish and not the rice from the rolls you order, they charge you extra.) By the way, I think the information about the philosophy behind the tradition would be a good addition to the article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:03, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Do you think Alameda County is at usable status yet?Edit

I have upgraded a couple of the lower-level destinations to usable, but Piedmont really just isn't up there yet. However, that county is very close to being at usable status and it would be great if we could get another region to usable status. What do you think? I can work on the county's article itself, but I know practically nothing about Piedmont. Selfie City (talk) 20:54, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Well, Wikivoyage:Region guide status says that usable status doesn't require all the cities to be at usable status or better, just the most important ones. I don't think Piedmont is one of the most important cities in the county, so that shouldn't be a problem. If you can work on the county article to add a "Get in" section with all the typical ways to get there, and the most prominent attractions (identified with directions), I think that'll be enough to get it to usable. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:20, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes, that should be easy enough. Thanks for the information, and yes, Piedmont is definitely not the most important city in Alameda County. As you probably know, the main cities in Alameda County are Oakland, Fremont, Hayward, and Berkeley or something along those lines, with Pleasanton, Livermore, Alameda itself, and perhaps Castro Valley being of medium importance, and then the other cities being of much less importance. Thanks though. Selfie City (talk) 01:44, 19 August 2018 (UTC)


Just to let you know if you don't already, User:WOSlinker has nominated you as an admin. While I would of course be delighted if you were to accept (I don't think there's any doubt which way the vote will go), the choice is fully yours and I can't see anywhere where you were asked if you wanted to be nominated, so just wanted to make sure it's what you want. Best of luck, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:38, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I accept the nomination. Thanks for the message and the support! —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:10, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Great! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:19, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
I just voted for you, Granger. The above talk page sections show that you have given me a lot of help and guidance, and I think you'll be a good admin. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:23, 26 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the support! —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:26, 27 August 2018 (UTC)


Regarding your edit summary

"restoring - the word "technically" is meaningful here - the country isn't legally part of the Schengen Area but de facto functions as part of it for travel purposes"

I will point out that this is what my version said (emphasis added):

"Although it's not part of the Schengen Area, there are no border controls when entering or exiting Monaco from France, so it can for all practical purposes be considered part of the Schengen Area."

The "technically" you've added back in alludes to what the rest of the sentence states clearly and unambiguously. Can we not expect readers to read a whole sentence? Or do we have to be repetitive and redundant and bore readers? Ground Zero (talk) 02:16, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't think it's boring, I think it's clearer. Sometimes it's worth having a sentence that's slightly redundant, in order to make it easier to follow. The word "technically" here prepares the reader for some kind of major exception or different situation.
This seems to follow the pattern of other differences of opinion we've had about wording, where you've removed a word that's redundant, strictly speaking, but that (in my view) makes the sentence easier to follow. I think it's a small difference in this case, though, so if you want to remove the word again I won't object. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:21, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Given that the reader has already been prepared for an exception by the word "Although" at the very start of the sentence. I'll take you up on that offer. Ground Zero (talk) 03:28, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Chinese cuisineEdit

Great job on Chinese cuisine! I'm excited by the progress in the article. It would be awesome if it gets good and relatively comprehensive enough to feature as a travel topic! To what extent should we cover Overseas Chinese cuisines like Malaysian or Thai Chinese cuisines? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:30, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm glad the progress is appreciated! I'm hoping it can be a featured travel topic someday too. As for overseas Chinese cuisines, my initial thought is that the Chinese cuisine article should mainly focus on the food you can get in greater China (mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan). Then Malaysian Chinese cuisine would be covered in our Malaysia article (which already seems to have a good section about it), or a Malaysian cuisine article if it's ever created. But I think it would be good for the Chinese cuisine article to have a paragraph or two about overseas Chinese cuisine, so that readers know it exists and can click over to the relevant articles if they're interested. But I'm interested to hear what you and other editors think. —Granger (talk · contribs) 05:15, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:34, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't think the Chinese cuisine article should include information about, for example, Burmese cuisine. But at the same time I think the Chinese cuisine article should absolutely mention Chinese-American cuisine and other Chinese cuisines found in countries besides China. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 14:10, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
There are many different kinds of Overseas Chinese cuisine. Thai, Malaysian, Indonesian and in some cases Indian Chinese cuisines are way more interesting than American Chinese cuisine, and in the U.S., really old-school American Chinese cuisine (chow mein, chop suey, egg foo young, etc.) has been superseded in many places by a slightly less Americanized version. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:09, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
What if we created a separate article for Overseas Chinese cuisine or even just for Chinese-American cuisine? --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:18, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
I'd support the creation of an Overseas Chinese cuisine with sections for each country or region with a distinct variety if someone wants to start one, but let's keep in mind that there'd be significant overlap with articles on the cuisines of Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, India and even the Anglo-Caribbean region (Jamaica, Trinidad, etc.). Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:53, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
What if we did something along the lines of Overseas Asian cuisine? I could see that getting chaotic, though, with so many different countries having different versions of their cuisines in different countries. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 21:56, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Asian? No. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:02, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Too broad a topic, I guess. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 16:14, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Broad and unspecific. Compare "Overseas European cuisine". Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:35, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I see what you mean. Greek and German cuisines are not remotely alike. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 17:46, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
Sorry that I came across this so late, but I'd like to add that there's also Cuban-Chinese cuisine, even though I've never tried it myself. And there's also Japanese-Chinese (eg. ramen, gyoza) and Korean-Chinese (eg. jajangmyeon) cuisine. So if anyone decides to start the article, there's a lot you could possibly cover.
Speaking of which, I've never been a fan of American-Chinese or Australian-Chinese cuisine so perhaps I'm ignorant, but it seems like American, British, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and South African Chinese cuisine all appear very similar to me. If anyone knows those in depth, I'm happy to have them included too. The dog2 (talk) 20:27, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Regarding American vs. Canadian Chinese food, one point that springs immediately to mind is that most Canadian Chinese restaurants, especially away from major cities, also serve Western food, while this is rarely if ever seen in the U.S. As for the cuisine itself, though, leaving aside different regional specialties that you can find in specific areas of both countries (i.e. Springfield-style cashew chicken in the U.S., ginger beef which originated in Calgary), there is no notable difference. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:43, 8 December 2018 (UTC)


Hi! Please pardon the delay in flipping the switch, but you are now an Admin by acclamation. Let me know if you need any help with any of your new tools, and thanks for being willing to help out this way.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:43, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank you! —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:04, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
Congratulations on the promotion! --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 03:46, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
Thanks! —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:57, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Thank messagesEdit

I’ve been sending you a lot of thanks messages for edits lately. Just wanted to let you know that I am not trying to bother you, just that you’ve been doing a lot of edits lately that I’m grateful about. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 02:01, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

It's no bother—I'm glad you appreciate the edits! —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:55, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. And yes, thanks for your work on the South American indegenous peoples article. IMO the Latin American indigenous groups have very interesting histories, and while our coverage of the Native Americans is quite detailed, until yesterday UTC the coverage on the South American peoples was comparatively very poor. History books tend to focus on Mediterranean peoples, and in the process many civilisations seem to be neglected. But how those Inca people survived, let alone thrived, in the mountainous jungles is quite an accomplishment. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 03:31, 15 September 2018 (UTC)
Agreed—the Inca Empire is really interesting, and it would be great to improve our coverage of it and other South American cultures. —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:08, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Discussion about banner on Talk:Fruits and vegetablesEdit

I messed up on the ping the first time, just wanted to let you know, I responded to you there today. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:36, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Litte non-sense fightsEdit

Could you please appreciate the work I put into WV and not always make my life harder?

Yes, I know, you do not agree with every change I make, but at least have the decency to not start a fight about non-sense when there is no hard rules how it should be done.

I also do not agree with your edits all the time. But at least I respect your work and not just go ahead and revert changes that are not worth the fight.

Cheers Ceever (talk) 15:15, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

I usually ignore edits of yours that I disagree with, because for some reason our disagreements seem to escalate and become unpleasant quickly. For example, I disagree with your recent addition of a banner to Talk:Bolivia—I think the banner is confusing because it makes the talk page look like an article, but I decided it wasn't worth the argument, so I left it alone. But sometimes when I see an edit that, in my view, clearly makes an article worse or violates Wikivoyage policies, I do revert it.
In the specific case of the Puno article, Wikivoyage:Measurements clearly advises providing conversions.
I do appreciate the work that you do to improve Wikivoyage and hope that you'll continue to do so. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:30, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
In the case of the banner at the top of Talk:Bolivia, it's non-standard for pagebanners to be at the top of talk pages. Sorry, Ceever, but I think the banner should be removed (it's already at the top of Bolivia. It's actually a very nice pagebanner, just in the case of the talk page, not in the place where it belongs.
If we ever decide to make pagebanners at the top of talk pages standard, I'd go along with it, but since there isn't consensus currently for that, I think we should keep the status quo of not having pagebanners on talk pages. Per WV:Banner expedition and common knowledge, the point of banners is relevance to the place/topic described in the body of the article, which would make pagebanners irrelevant on talk pages. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:35, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
I don't really care about the banner. I was just wondering where the chapter index appears. I thought the banner was the reason. Sorry for adding. I fixed the missing index with TOC. Cheers Ceever (talk) 16:17, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Could it be that they escalate, because many senior users do not understand how to properly handle enthusiastic new editors? I have seen it often enough that new users are punished with apparently not applied "rules" by senior users, and often discussions escalate in the following.
This would be fine, if we had enough editors, but considering I am on the watchlist of beyond 600 articles, many of which are favourite travel destinations, and I am still able to review all edits within 2 hours after a break of 4 weeks, clearly points to the fact that we lack good and enthusiastic editors. That let alone is catastrophic, but editors also bring new readers, because they are keen to promote their work. If they decide to leave frustrated because all this bureaucracy is rained down on them, well guess what will be the consequence.
What people here need to understand is that besides the travellers/readers the editors are equally if not even more important customers for WV.
Yes, I had a look at Wikivoyage:Measurements, but it is clearly not applied meaningfully. Apparently, no one is really interested in conversions that are relevant to 5% or less of travellers. Rules should be practical not just logical, even though I do not even see much logic in this rule either.
Cheers, Ceever (talk) 16:17, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Edit to RussiaEdit

I liked the change for Swaziland to Eswatini in that case. I think it's the sort of thing that will make people think "where's Eswatini?" and probably generate some interest. I don't think Swaziland would have had such a strong effect in that sense. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Great! I think you're right. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:38, 7 March 2019 (UTC)


Thanks for helping out with followup edits to the articles for the Chinese provinces I moved to different Wikivoyage regions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:34, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Jews having ancestors from Ukraine, etc.Edit

Re: this edit: Yeah, I think "vast majority" is accurate. To take me as an example, my immediate ancestors left Lithuania, Ukraine and Poland in the 19th and early 20th centuries, but I had a lot of relatives in Poland who were murdered. I think this is very typical of American Jews. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:22, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

That doesn't mean I think we have to revert your edit, but I do think the previous wording was accurate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:23, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Maybe it was accurate, I don't know for sure. Like I said, I haven't seen statistics, I'm just judging from my own informal experience. I think among American Jews outside my family who I've talked to about the Holocaust, probably less than 2/3 have relatives who were killed. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:30, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
So that would be a majority but not a vast majority. OK, fair enough. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:33, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Joke articles/NanotourismEdit

Sorry, I didn't realize that you reverted my edit. I have and will continue to adjust to disclaimer so it adds to the joke rather than spoiling it. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:15, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Yep, it now reads in such a way that it doesn't come across as serious. Sorry, I can see how such a disclaimer can easily be a joke spoiler if used the wrong way. I totally agree with you. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:21, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
Looks much better to me now. Thanks! —Granger (talk · contribs) 09:47, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I can see that before it was kind of a spoiler. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:50, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Page Banner CompletionEdit

Hi! Thanks for creating so many page banners and helping to reduce the number of articles without custom page banners.

I am wondering though if you would follow-up by adding the banners to Wikidata? For each banner that you create, I have had to follow-up and complete this work for you. All of the articles that don't have their page banner added to Wikidata remain in the Wikivoyage maintenance category of Category:Banner missing from Wikidata. The top part of the page has the instructions on how to properly add the banner to Wikidata, and at the bottom is a list of articles that need this action. While the instructions may look lengthy, after you do this a couple of times it goes very quickly. Thanks for considering my request. It can be challenging to keep up with all of the banners that are being added each week. Zcarstvnz (talk) 09:58, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

@Zcarstvnz: It seems to me this is something that can easily be done by bot—I don't think either of us need to spend the time manually adding the banners to Wikidata. At the very bottom of Wikivoyage:Banner Expedition you can find information about who to contact for a bot run. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:20, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Ancient EgyptEdit

Would you say that article is at usable status yet? Thanks. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:00, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

It's funny, I was going through "what links here" for Ancient Egypt and I consequently viewed the Cedarville article, where it mentions "two sphinx". Which made me realize — the Sphinx isn't included in the Ancient Egypt article! What a terrible omission! I'll fix the problem. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:10, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't know. It only has two sections—is that all we expect the article to have? If so, I guess it's usable. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:37, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
I agree—it's a little thin. But what other sections could be added? I guess #Stay safe, but all I'd put is a link to Egypt#Stay safe, since relevant information is included there. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:16, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Does it need to be its own article then? Maybe better to redirect to Egypt and include relevant content in the "Understand" and "See" sections. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:23, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Like many of the travel topic articles about history (and other topics), they were created around 2015 and have developed since then, but not a lot. I'm actually currently involved in a debate on this very issue at Talk:Ancient Israel. In both cases, I think there's too much content that's too united for for the travel topics to be merged into the country articles. But that's not how everyone sees it. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:27, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Very much support merging with Egypt. Not enough travel-related content on this page to justify being separated, and the non-travel-related content should go, anyway. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 01:18, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Civil WarEdit

Just out of curiosity, which state declaration of secession doesn't mention slavery? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:51, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia, only South Carolina, Texas, Alabama, and Virginia did, with Mississippi and Georgia additionally publishing separate explanations of their secessions which mentioned the slavery issue. If you're interested in a concrete example, you can read the Louisiana ordinance of secession here. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:34, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Guns and trespassingEdit

While I will defer this to your expertise, I would just like to understand what exactly the law is. My understanding is that the moment you stumble off the sidewalk onto someone's front yard, you are considered a trespasser and the owner then has the right to shoot you because he/she can go to court and claim to feel threatened because of your intrusion. The dog2 (talk) 19:07, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

I also have reason to believe that your appearance and skin color all too often have an effect on the likelihood of your being shot in such situations. There are too many stories about black folks being shot without good reasons and the shooters not punished for me to be naive about the difference in degrees of danger. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:21, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
And one thing that I will add is that even when it comes to self-defence, American law is quite unique in that you can use as much force as you want in the name of self-defence. In Singapore and Australia, which follow British law on this, you are only allowed to use "a reasonable amount of force" in the name of self-defence. So for instance, if a five-year-old boy punches you and you shoot him in retaliation, my understanding is that it is legal in the US because that is part of your right to defend yourself, while in Australia, you would still be guilty of murder because the amount of force used would be considered to be disproportionate and not reasonable. The dog2 (talk) 19:45, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't think you're right, The dog2. If you were a police officer and the 5-year-old was black, you might get away with it, but I don't think there's any law in the U.S. that gives you the right to shoot someone in supposed self-defense, let alone in retaliation, just because they punched you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:48, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
What are "stand your ground" laws then? The dog2 (talk) 23:36, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
You think they apply to shooting a 5-year-old? I mean, in practice, maybe if the shooter is white and the puncher is black, but that's not because of the law; it's because of racism in the legal system. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:48, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm not a lawyer, so don't take this as legal advice, but at most, "stand your ground" laws allow the use of lethal force only if you believe the person presents an imminent threat of physical harm. Nowhere in the US (as far as I know) is it legal to shoot someone just because they're on your property. That's a Hollywood exaggeration. Your "five-year-old" example is incorrect too. (Of course it's true that race is a factor, both in property owners' behavior and in how a jury is likely to view the situation.)
More broadly, The dog2, I've noticed you sometimes add content to articles that's based on overgeneralizations, incorrect assumptions, or inaccurate stereotypes. I've gone behind you and corrected these sometimes, but there are certainly others that I've missed. Please be careful not to add content that you're not sure about. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:50, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
OK, I guess sometimes the media does exaggerate some aspects of American gun culture for dramatic effect. Perhaps how the media portrays the red states is not that accurate after all. But tangential to this, I've heard that it's legal for you to drive without a licence on your own private property. Is that actually true? The dog2 (talk) 02:13, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't know, but I would believe it. Probably depends on the state. I know someone who grew up on a farm and started driving there when she was 12 or 13. If true, though, I don't think it's relevant to travelers. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:27, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm Canadian, our legal system is mostly British, my dad was a high-ranking officer of our federal police, the RCMP, and sometime around 1970 he explained our law on this to me.
Shoot a burglar as he climbs in your window & you are in the clear; no charge will be laid. You do not know his intentions or how he might be armed, whether he has four buddies about to climb in behind him, etc.
Shoot him as he climbs out the window & you will be charged. With a good lawyer you might well beat the charge -- temporary insanity because he kicked your wife & raped your dog, or claim you were defending your neighbours who you thought he was going after next, or whatever -- but you would have to face a court.
This still sounds about right to me. Pashley (talk) 02:37, 16 April 2019 (UTC)


Do you have the full international phone number for Traveles hotel? --Traveler100 (talk) 19:16, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid not, though after looking online I found a longer version of the number with the area code, which I've put in the article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:24, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
I looked on Wikipedia for information and I think I've added the country code correctly. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:12, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Recent issue with blocked accountEdit

Thank you for taking care of this issue. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

My comment in Talk:United States of AmericaEdit

Just letting you know, it just so happened that you replied while I was editing my comment halfway, because I felt the need to elaborate further on why I consider some of these vitamins to be a safety risk. Whatever you were replying to is still there, and I merely added some stuff. I assure you that I was not trying to misrepresent you. The dog2 (talk) 17:56, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Understood, and thanks for clarifying. I added the note to my comment to make sure it's clear I was responding to the stuff from the main article and the comments about Paul Offit and the FDA, not the information about Vitamin C. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:00, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Unidiomatic word-for-word translationsEdit

Nice little list. There's a whole Stack Exchange thread about "touristic" and how it's basically only used by non-native speakers. As an addition, may I suggest "orthography"? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:53, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Oh, good one—that word is often misused by non-native speakers. That said, it doesn't seem to be a big problem on Wikivoyage—I just searched for "orthography" and it's mostly being used for its correct technical meaning. So I'm not ready to add it to the list yet...but let me know if you have any other suggestions! —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:56, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Community Insights SurveyEdit

RMaung (WMF) 14:34, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Hong KongEdit

I understand the last time, I erred in saying that people could die by visiting Hong Kong, but people have indeed been injured as a result of the protests recently. There are photos of bloodied protesters on the metro that have been widely disseminated. I believe adding a notice saying that injuries are possible is not at all ridiculous or an exaggeration. I will not edit the warning box further, however, until we can reach a consensus on this issue. Kiteinthewind (talk) 07:37, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Indeed protestors have been injured, and I think the word "violent" already makes it obvious that attending the protests may bring a risk of injury—we don't need to be repetitive or to exaggerate by implying travelers are at risk everywhere in Hong Kong. The stuff about travelers' native languages is basically speculative, and the advice not to go to Hong Kong at all is excessive. One of my students (from mainland China) took a shopping trip to Hong Kong just last week. And so on. I think the current warning is adequate. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:22, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
As I see it, if people are covered in blood, there is a risk of death, low it may be. However, I don't say the wording should necessarily be changed. —The preceding comment was added by SelfieCity (talkcontribs) 22:59, 16 September 2019

Reminder: Community Insights SurveyEdit

RMaung (WMF) 19:13, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Reminder: Community Insights SurveyEdit

RMaung (WMF) 17:04, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Country article lead paragraphsEdit

  The Wikivoyage Barncompass
For your amazing work revising country article lead paragraphs. Great job! Ground Zero (talk) 08:22, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree. Tremendous amount of work! Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:36, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Thank you both—I'm glad it's appreciated! Still lots of room for improvement, of course. —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:46, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Vaduz Not being a cityEdit

I'm not sure the concept of "Stadtrecht" translates well into English, but Vaduz never received it, making it "still a village" at least in a somewhat medieval interpretation of legalities. This German language source mentions the lack of Stadtrecht near the beginning. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:49, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I'll defer to your judgement on the technicalities of Liechtenstein law, but I suggest we put this administrative trivia in the "Understand" section rather than the lead. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Something that might interest you.Edit

Since you lived in Guangdong for a while, I though I'd share a clip from Guangdong television with you. What they did here was that they got people from different cities in Guangdong to rap their parts in their local dialect, so you'll hear Cantonese, Taishanese, Hakka, Teochew and so on. The dog2 (talk) 08:01, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

I love it! Thanks for the recommendation. —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:29, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Sorry about the disruption in Hong KongEdit

Sorry about the mistake made in Hong Kong, as I thought that "lynching" refers to the unlawful punishment by others. I didn't even know that the term only refers to extrajudicial killing... But anyways, there are definitely such beatings by protesters on counterprotesters, known as "私了" by the protesters. Perhaps it is worth mentioning? 廣九直通車 (talk) 23:37, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

No need to apologize! I'm glad we have you here updating the situation in Hong Kong, and there are plenty of people watching the article to correct any errors that slip through. The word "lynching" is sometimes used metaphorically, but usually refers to extrajudicial killing (I think it's narrower than the Chinese term 私刑).
About the beatings, I suppose the current language referring to "violent assaults on people having different political views" is adequate. Unless you think more details are needed? —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:42, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
I'll point out that there have also been violent attacks by counter-protesters on protesters, so the violence is really coming from all sides at this point. As a travel guide, our job is not to assign blame or take sides in the political dispute, but to simply provide information that keeps travellers safe. The dog2 (talk) 17:39, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

CCTV cameras in ChinaEdit

To respond to your comment on this, I was absolutely not trying to present a pro-Western or pro-Chinese view on this. I have in fact made as much effort as I can to avoid taking sides on political conflicts here. But I think it is worth covering more about how the presence of CCTV cameras affects traveller safety. It is certainly true that if you decide to go to China to join a protest, they will use the CCTV footage to track you down and arrest you, and it has been used in that way to track down political dissidents. But it has also been highly successful at tracking down criminals. According to my relatives who travel to China regularly for business, since they installed the CCTV cameras, the incidence of armed robberies and other crimes have been greatly reduced as many of the criminals were tracked down and arrested, and the streets have become safer in general as far as personal safety is concerned. The dog2 (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

The presence of CCRV cameras is relevant to travellers. A travel guide needn't cover the criticism of them and the government defence of the policy, and it is definitely not appropriate in an article that we've work so hard to wrestle down to a manageable size. Ground Zero (talk) 21:55, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
I agree with Ground Zero. With respect to protests, our advice should be not to participate in any protests in mainland China, period. Doesn't matter whether there are CCTV cameras or not.
As a general point, we should not uncritically parrot the Chinese government's framing that criticism of the government is a "West vs. China" issue. But if we stick to stuff that's within the scope of a travel guide, this shouldn't be a much of problem. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:51, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
To your last point, I'm not in any way suggesting that we should promote the Chinese government's narrative. All I'm saying is that we should give a fair and accurate account of events and the situation on the ground. If something portrays China or the Chinese government in a bad light but is fair and accurate, then so be it. What I'm against is taking the Western media's portrayal of China at face value (or for that matter, the Chinese media's portrayal of the West) without bothering to verify their factual accuracy. In fact, I've also pushed back against more sensationalist claims about the U.S. when the situation called for it (such as when someone wanted to insert a warning box about the crime rate in the U.S.). The dog2 (talk) 21:00, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Indeed, the goal here is accurate travel information. Please make an effort to (a) avoid excessive discussions of politics and (b) not parrot inaccurate narratives, and we should be all good. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:33, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

On personsEdit

I think your comment on Religion and LGBT was unneeded. The regulars know the situation well enough and there was no need to interfere with a discussion mostly keeping to the facts. The less personal issues pop up, the better. --LPfi (talk) 06:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

You're right—the comment wasn't helpful to the discussion. Thanks for bringing it up. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:32, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Gateway airports to ChinaEdit

First of all, I want to thank you for updating the section and mentioning Chengdu as a viable alternative to China in place of the Big Three. I would like to ask for your opinion on whether or not some of the other airports could be worth a mention in the main China article instead of just the regional or city articles. Some airports I would think could possibly be worth a mention include Kunming, Chongqing, Xiamen and possibly Shenzhen. What do you think? The dog2 (talk) 19:56, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the message - I had forgotten it was me who added Chengdu.
I'm not really sure if those other airports merit a mention or not. Chongqing rings a bell as a flight hub. Shenzhen has decent connections in the region but is still low on intercontinental flights. For the others I don't really know, and I'm traveling at the moment so I can't do much research very easily. Feel free to add them if you see fit. —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:05, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Angkor Archaeological ParkEdit

I don't think this is true anymore:

"Horse carriages and even elephants are also available within the park, but only from specific points. For example, elephants travel the route between Bayon and the nearest gate of Angkor Thom."

I'd like to remove it. Do you agree? Ground Zero (talk) 11:08, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, please remove it. When I was there I made a mental note to remove that line, but then I forgot. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:24, 7 February 2020 (UTC)


Thanks for that listing. We enjoyed it, and sponsored a rat. Ground Zero (talk) 06:14, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm glad! We enjoyed it a lot too. —Granger (talk · contribs) 06:46, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Sponsored a rat? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:36, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
In other words, made a donation to support training a landmine-sniffing rat. (This might give you some idea what we're talking about.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:04, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
The rats can smell TNT up to a metre away, including underground, so they can find landmines and UXO much faster than metal detectors that find lots of scrap metal. And they weigh 1.5 kg, so they don't detonate the mines. Ground Zero (talk) 23:29, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Woah! That's incredible! Rats are amazing animals, aren't they? I've long been an admirer of theirs, and all rodents actually. Intelligent, resourceful, adaptable. But the people who came up with the idea are equally impressive. I think the best ideas are the ones which are completely off the wall, but which become obvious in their simplicity as soon as they're thought of.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:18, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
The demonstration was very cool. And the Giant Africa Rat is, well, very big for a rat. Ground Zero (talk) 15:32, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
I googled them. They're as big as cats, and bigger than those tiny dogs that I sometimes suspect are rats in a costume.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:41, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank youEdit

Thanks for fixing my mistake. I was copying the box to modify it in Hajj, but had to finish quickly and got muddled. Ground Zero (talk) 12:20, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

No worries - glad we got it worked out. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:44, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

"That paper is on other coronaviruses"Edit

Not true. Please, read carefully. The very beginning of the article's summary:

"Currently, the emergence of a novel human coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2, has become a global health concern causing severe respiratory tract infections in humans."

Look at the charts for SARS-CoV-2. That's what I did. You understand that's another name for COVID-19, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:18, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: I think it is you who needs to read more carefully. I looked in the charts and do not see SARS-CoV-2. I see SARS-CoV (the virus that caused the SARS outbreak several years ago), MERS-CoV (the virus that causes MERS), and several other viruses, but not SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19). This paper is an analysis of papers that were published before the COVID-19 outbreak studying other coronaviruses. Obviously this paper was published with an eye toward fighting the current outbreak, but the data in the table is for other coronaviruses. I urge you to self-revert. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:26, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, you're right. Sorry. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:48, 14 March 2020 (UTC)


You seem to be making a lot of edits marked "copyedit" that don't change any of the text. Why is that? (I assume there is a good reason for it. ) Ground Zero (talk) 20:39, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

These are cases where Latin and Cyrillic letters have been substituted for each other—for instance "М" (Cyrillic) being used instead of "M" (Latin). With default font settings, the difference is invisible to readers, but it causes problems for copy+pasting and searching. Maybe I should use a clearer edit summary. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:45, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
It's probably worth a better edit summary. It looks odd, but I'm glad you're doing it. Ground Zero (talk) 20:54, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Lot's of changesEdit

... but I do not see the difference. Could you give me a hint? Cheers Ceever (talk) 21:31, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Basically, I'm changing Cyrillic to Latin letters and vice versa to aid searching. There are more details in the section above this, and the list of pages I'm working with is here. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:35, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Mapframe removalsEdit

I noticed the comments on the Atlanta article and Beirut, just wanted to understand the logic further on complete removal versus just removing the map shape. I would like to have slippy maps on pages as I find them useful for a quick browse (better than another click to the map at the top). If removal is the result of discussion there at least should be a status applied so they don't appear in "articles without mapframes" as that is what I'm working through and useful for quality ranking. Also to the comment about the districts not appearing, removing the mapshape would leave the interactive map, but not be in conflict with the areas mentioned in the article. What do you think about just removing the mapshapes? Wolfgang8741 (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

That works for me. Thanks for the work you're doing adding maps, by the way. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:23, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Great! I skipped a handful of pages that had districts in the list until this was settled so not to cause more work. Pretty much went through all the up to pages without maps starting with C from the list today. The ones that remain lack a mapshape to display. Thanks for catching the few map centering adjustments I didn't catch. Interestingly adding mapframes also has helped identify wrong wikidata and OpenStreetMap linkings, and a few coordinates as well for a few pages. I'm just planning to skip pages with districts and look at those another time since they have a little more to think about. :) Wolfgang8741 (talk) 23:17, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Sounds good! I'm glad you've been catching wrong Wikidata and OpenStreetMap linkings too—those can easily slip in and last a long time without being noticed. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:44, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Discrimination in ChinaEdit

Just to clarify some of my recent edits, sure I am aware that there's always been racism against black people in China, but the COVID-19 outbreak has certainly main things worse. I have seen videos of landlords in Guangzhou evicting their black tenants, and saying that they are being evicted to they do not spread COVID-19 to others. And I've certainly seen reports of hotels refusing to let black people check-in. So while discrimination has always existed, some of the more egregious forms we are seeing now were a lot rarer until the COVID-19 outbreak.

And yes, I know that there are negative stereotypes about Japanese people, Southeast Asians and many other groups, but the general impression is that white people tend to get away with things that Chinese people or other groups would be punished for. And it's not just in China. There's quite a bit of resentment about "begpacking" in many Asian countries, because the impression, whether true or not, is that only white people get away with it. I know almost for certain that if I go on a "begpacking" trip around America or Europe, I would probably be arrested and deported. And in Singapore, there is certainly an impression that in the workplace, white people tend to get promoted faster and have their opinions taken more seriously than non-whites. The dog2 (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Good points, and maybe discrimination in favor of white people should be mentioned in that section (or in Singapore or other articles). What I want to avoid is travellers who aren't white thinking "this doesn't apply to me", because the advice to try to leave a good impression and avoid furthering negative stereotypes applies to non-white visitors as well.
And yes, while the phenomenon of black people being refused hotel stays existed before, it seems to have increased amid COVID. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
I see what you mean. Certainly I'd advise everyone to behave properly when you visit a foreign country (or even in your own country) regardless of skin colour. But certainly, the resentment over foreigners getting special privileges applies more to white people. For non-white people, the racism that they face tends to be more out of contempt than resentment over perceived special privileges, so what I'm intending to say here is that the racism that white people and non-white people face are different in their nature. The dog2 (talk) 22:48, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Good point. Come to think of it, maybe the information I'm trying to convey (advising good behavior to avoid furthering negative stereotypes) really belongs in "Respect" rather than "Stay safe". What if we move the phrase "who allegedly enjoy significantly better treatment than locals" to the first paragraph of the racism section (after "white foreigners"), remove the rest of the 洋垃圾 paragraph, and add a note to "Respect" about stereotypes and good behavior? A traveller doesn't really need to learn the term "洋垃圾", after all. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:56, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I think that works. The dog2 (talk) 23:13, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
What do you think? Please adjust as needed. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:23, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
Looks good to me. The dog2 (talk) 01:20, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Clear from mapsEdit

Yes, this is true but not everyone can see a map: some persons are blind. The copy may still be need to be removed for other reasons, but we shouldn't assume that plain text is somehow redundant to graphics: they are complementary. Just a friendly reminder to keep accessibility in mind. —Justin (koavf)TCM 20:23, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Good point, it's true that not everyone can see a map. I don't really think a list of bordering states is necessary at all (except maybe as part of the directions in "Get in" or the suggestions in "Go next"). But if you think it's useful, feel free to add it to the "Understand" section. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:27, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
No, not disputing the content, just the rationale. Thanks. —Justin (koavf)TCM 02:44, 3 May 2020 (UTC)


I was just improving the lede of Great Basin as you had mentioned the problem encountered in many introductions to Wikivoyage articles. What do you think of the idea of creating an expedition to improve lede paragraphs in articles? Just a thought. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

That's an interesting idea. It can be hard to write a good lede if you don't know much about thre destination, though I've had some success moving information from "Understand". An expedition could help coordinate. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:41, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I think that's the best approach. Limits to each contributor's knowledge limits the input possible from each contributor, but the more contributors that would join an expedition of this kind, the more chance there would be of its having a larger impact. I think we should encourage contributors to add lede paragraphs to places they know. Otherwise, it's a matter of their best judgment whether or not they can incorporate information from the "understand" section as you mentioned. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:48, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Well said. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:49, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
I think this would be an excellent expedition, and provide more improvement in the reader's experience than any formatting change can. Ground Zero (talk) 15:51, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Early tasks: A) develop a metric – something machine-countable to measure progress. Number of pages with lede of less than 100 characters, does that sound right? Or start with < 50 to focus on the most blatant examples? B) Standardise terminology. Is “lede” well understood by contributors, or does “intro” or somesuch play better? (Styleguide calls it “lead”.) C) Update and publicise the lede and Understand style guide, because confusion between lede and Understand lies at the root of many examples. That would prompt everyone, whatever they’re working on, to take a moment to remedy their page ledes if indicated. D) Consider how the project might be segmented into do-able chunks, because perhaps 20% of all pages have poor ledes, a daunting task. (Indeed it’s an infinite task if you get sucked in to fixing the other glaring faults you might find on such pages.) For Scotland I counted 38 examples, for Switzerland 36, for Saskatchewan 25, and I didn’t dare look at Sri Lanka or Sudan. For Spain I’m told it’s 1003. Grahamsands (talk) 17:30, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
@Grahamsands: I've created Wikivoyage:Lede Paragraphs Expedition and used your comment to build the "tasks" section. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:05, 14 May 2020 (UTC)


Age of Discovery is a difficult fit for our current categories as it could, in my opinion, be considered either part of In the footsteps of explorers or European history. I'm not concerned either way. I was thinking about the Age of Discovery as a travel topic about a period in history rather than a travel topic about explorers, which is the reason for my earlier categorization. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:14, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough. I don't feel strongly about it, so feel free to change it back if you'd like to. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:22, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
No, I think given The Dog2's edits (including James Cook in Age of Discovery), it's better this way. I'm not sure those had been made yet at the time. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:23, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Kaga-Bandoro and Al NabekEdit

I've just redirected these two articles per discussion on each one's talk page. It occurred to me that they should accordingly be removed from Wikidata. Should articles that are now redirecting to another place be removed from Wikidata's Wikivoyage entry? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

I think it's fine to keep them attached to Wikidata. That simplifies things slightly if they're ever recreated, and in the meantime it helps readers navigate to the most relevant Wikivoyage article. There might be some issue I'm not aware of, though. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:01, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
OK, thanks. Just wondering. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:39, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Colombia boatsEdit

Hi, Max. About the "sneaky link" format of the bit reinserted, it looks very touty, out of place and ugly, if I may say so, on Wikivoyage. External links says, in-article text links: Links within the article text should be kept to a minimum and should point only to primary sources. Examples of valid links might include airline companies, bus companies, and sites offering daily updates and warnings about a destination's condition, but this I'd like to debate in the future. That's why I objected to the format as admin. Consider agreeing that a professional-looking listing on the appropriate articles is the best approach. This is what was asked to this user. Ibaman (talk) 14:26, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. If I'm not mistaken, the link is to a primary source (a transportation service), so it should be acceptable under the policy you linked. I agree it would be better in the Cartagena (Colombia) article, though—I'll move it there. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:35, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

New Smyrna Beach#SleepEdit

I'm not sure what to do here per Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates#New Smyrna Beach. I can definitely add descriptions of my own for some places, but certainly not for all of them, for example the "budget" listings. I'm not sure a visitor should consider budget travel options here, as anything on the N. Dixie Freeway (to my knowledge) is on the budget end of the scale for a reason.

Should every hotel listing include a description? If so, I'm not sure it will be possible to feature the article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:57, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

IMO, every listing should have a description, but you can get ideas from online reviews and reading hotels' websites. It takes time, but the end results are worth it.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:03, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
OK. I saw that you were doing that but I wasn't sure, and had a "trust but verify" moment per Wikivoyage:Copyleft. I'll look for reviews now, which I'm sure will be helpful. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:06, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Agree with ThunderingTyphoons!. Information about amenities can be gathered from the official sites; more qualitative judgements can be summarized from online reviews. As long as you summarize in your own words there are no copyright issues. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:34, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

"Arson and looting"Edit

In the article Minneapolis the following sentence mentions looting so I have maintained the word. Otherwise feel free to remove it, as arson should be a clear enough message to warn tourists not to visit cities with demonstrations.

P.S. I didn't write the travel warnings. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:38, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Admin stuffEdit

Hi mate. When you get a spare moment, would you mind reading the discussion at filter 43? Thanks, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:32, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I've responded. I don't think abuse filters are the right place for these kinds of proposals, though—they should be made in regular community discussion forums like the pub so that non-admins can participate. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:02, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, and yes, you're probably right now.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:26, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Rural areasEdit

I'm a little confused by your recent edit. Not that I'm opposed, but isn't the purpose of a rural area article template that it doesn't overlap with city article template? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

The "city guide status" page is already used for both city articles and district articles, and the "region guide status" is used for region articles, continent articles, and continental section articles. In the same way, I think it's okay to use the "city guide status" page for rural areas as well—the standards for promoting a rural area article should probably be similar to the standards for promoting a city article (non-empty "Get in", "See", "Eat", and "Sleep", for usable, multiple attractions to choose from for "Guide", and so on). That's my thinking, anyway. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:58, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Oh, I see. Yes, that makes sense! I should have checked the context of your edit; I was thinking that you were referring to what the purpose was for each article type. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:02, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

"Coronavirus has ended" editsEdit

I'm not sure I understand the reason for this diff. The IP user removed the offending text, which is a good thing and IMO shouldn't be reverted. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:48, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I clicked the revert button because I noticed this edit altering your comment. I'll reinstate the IP user's other edit. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
OK. I'm not sure why the user did that. Thanks for otherwise restoring the earlier revision of the article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:05, 6 July 2020 (UTC)