User talk:Ikan Kekek/archive

Latest comment: 3 months ago by Ikan Kekek in topic Merry Christmas

Hello, Ikan Kekek! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Project:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub.

I wanted to make sure you got the proper welcome! And thanks for your work on NYC. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:26, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Thank you, Peter, and thanks for your work, too! (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:08, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

  • Hey, thanks for the compliments. Anyway, you asked about the Chinatown article - I'm planning to improve it further, the reason I took down the cuisine categories is that Wikivoyage articles don't usually divide restaurants by cuisine, they divide them by price. If you think about it, it's simpler to just have three simple categories (by price) then to have multiple categories (by cuisine), especially when a lot of those categories have only one or two listings. Anyway, the current state of the article is just temporary. (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 00:14, 3 August 2009 (EDT)
Thanks for creating a user page - I was wondering why someone who posted about etiquette-as-practiced-in-Manhattan had a user name that sounded Southeast Asian-ish, but now the mystery has been solved :) -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 02:04, 12 April 2011 (EDT)
Yeah. I was really bicultural as well as bilingual for most of those 2 years. And I spoke Malay with a thick Terengganu accent! I still have some traditional Malay beliefs today. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:16, 12 April 2011 (EDT)
Hi Ikan,
   Thanks for editing the page of my province,Urdaneta! You are great editor.I'm jealous but i'm happy that you edit correctly the page.Thanks!

(WT-en) Angellene10

Using talk pages

While I'll stay as long from any punctuation debate as I possibly can. Just a quick pointer, new sections on talk pages should always be added to the bottom of the page. Otherwise us old dogs that you can't teach new tricks, have trouble finding the stuff. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) Talk 17:37, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

Thanks, Stefan. I'll keep that in mind. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 22:44, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

Hi Ikan Sorry to piss you off. Don't worry this is only a school project and I just want an A. Delete whatever, I don't care as long as my teacher sees what I wrote in the history it works. Have a good one. Heatherberg

The thing is, you're doing a very good job and your contributions are much appreciated. Don't take my edits based on Wikivoyage policies too much to heart. I hope that you stick around when you no longer need to do this for a grade.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 22:42, 16 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the kind comment I hope to build the page even better, I am actually in kota kinabalu Malaysia traveling right now and wikivoyage has saved me many times that I am trying to repay the favor haha. -Travellight

External links

I think you've already figured this out, but to recap, the External links policy in a nutshell is that primary sites (hotels, airlines, restaurants, etc) directly operated by the thing listed are OK, but secondary sites (booking engines, blogs, newspapers, travel guides) maintained by others are not. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:41, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, I did get that, thanks. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:26, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Brooklyn districts

We have tentatively agreed on a districts scheme for Brooklyn, and I was hoping you might take a look over it and share any feedback. It would also be fantastic, of course, if you would be willing to pitch in a bit with the actual task of moving content to new districts articles and replacing that content with overview prose in the Brooklyn article itself! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 20:19, 5 November 2009 (EST)

Get out

Just a heads up that this confusingly named section actually is meant to highlight nearby destinations worth visiting, rather than transport information! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 21:05, 24 August 2010 (EDT)

Shiny buttons

It's customary to ask someone if they'd be interested in having some additional buttons prior to a nomination. You've been around for a while, know the site's policies well, and would benefit from a rollback button, so would you mind if I put you up for nomination? -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:29, 1 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks, Ryan. If given the shiny new buttons, I promise not to break them.
All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:41, 1 April 2011 (EDT)
Two weeks have passed, so welcome to the admin club! You may need to log out and then log in again to see any change. Check out the Project:Administrator's handbook for instructions on how to use your shiny new buttons - while the "revert" button is pretty tough, "block", "protect" and "delete" should be handled with utmost care. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 16:47, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
Thanks, Ryan. I appreciate the confidence you all have shown in me. I expect to lean on you and the others for advice from time to time, while I learn the ropes.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:51, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
A question: What does "Rollback" do that's different from "Revert," if anything? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:54, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
I may have made a typo above - "rollback" as described here is what I meant when I typed "revert" above. It's useful for cases of vandalism, repeated policy violations, or other cases that involve reverting one or more edits that don't require any edit summary. If you're seeing "revert" anywhere then I suspect it's the same functionality, although I'm not seeing that option on a quick perusal of recent change or history pages so if you've got questions about a specific link you might need to let me know where you're seeing it :) -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 17:02, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
"Revert" is what I mean by the "undo" button. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:22, 15 April 2011 (EDT)
Rollback is a single step, which saves time but does not allow you to enter an edit summary. It automatically marks the edits in question as "patrolled" and removes all consecutive contributions that a person has made (undo removes only a single edit) so if someone makes five malicious edits in a row then rollback will remove all of them. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 17:28, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

Car Hire Listing Question

Hi Ikan, I notice you remove my work about car hire service from Yangshuo page. I think it is the same as hotel and restaurant listing. Should be okay to put it there.

I posted about this in the "Talk" (discussion) page for Yangshuo, so it's best to discuss it there, but part of the problem is what seems to me a touty tone in your description. But as I said, let's discuss the question there, where any other users interested in Yangshuo can easily address it.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:46, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

hi Ikan,

My car rental site is being removed from the link

the policy says "Rental cars operators, in cities where they are common (10 or more operating in the city). Typically we don't provide details of national car rental chains in local guides. Providing details at the national level, and mentioning the name and location at local level is sufficient if required. " There is only one other listing. is there something wrong with my listing (WT-en) Ano0810 09:36, 4 June 2011 (EDT)ano0810

Hi. (1) Please identify yourself on talk pages by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) in a row at the end of your post, so that I know who you are. I'm guessing you are the owner of HemKund Sahib Tours and Travel? If so, you would have to satisfy the criteria under Project:Activity listings#Tour listings. In any case, you could have at most one listing and it would have to be in the right format (again, read Project:Activity listings). If this doesn't answer your questions, please clarify what you are asking about.
All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:15, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek Thank you for the information. I have read through the links provided and published in accordance with the guidelines. Please let me know if there is something more I could do to make the listing better. (WT-en) Ano0810 10:01, 4 June 2011 (EDT)ano0810

The problem is, it's not clear from either your listing or your website what services you provide. If you are a tour provider, that lack of clarity makes you out of compliance with the criteria for acceptable tour listings, under Project:Activity listings#Tour listings.

made some more changes (WT-en) Ano0810 19:30, 4 June 2011 (EDT)ano0810

I saw. I regret that I have to delete your listing for violating the criteria on tour listings that I linked for you above. You are offering a non-specific tour listing that in no way indicates how an independent traveler can't do it by him-/herself. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:32, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

There is another listing in the same section. Could you throw some light on how that follows the rules laid down the wiki? Thnx(WT-en) Ano0810 19:59, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

If you think a listing is against the rules, Project:Plunge forward and delete it yourself, giving your reason in your editing "Summary". I think you mean the "AC Volvo" listing, which is a bit confusing, so I don't know whether to delete it or not. You probably know better whether it's merely informational or really promotional. But that said, if it's really just a listing for a bus trip, not a tour agency, it's probably fine. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 20:05, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

Edit Summaries

Quick note in case you weren't aware of this before, but when you are entering text in edit summaries, if you use wiki link formats instead of full URLs, the link will be clickable from the recent changes and history pages. For example, instead of:

Hard revert. Edit to eliminate 1st-person language and repost. which case the URL shows up in the edit summary as plain text, you can write:

Hard revert. Edit to eliminate 1st-person language and repost. Project:First person pronouns which case the URL will be a clickable link in the edit summary. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:15, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks, Ryan. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 18:04, 14 April 2011 (EDT)


Thanks for helping patrolling, but please remember to mark as patrolled, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 17:39, 18 April 2011 (EDT)

I don't mark articles as patrolled if instead of just patrolling them, I edit them. Are you suggesting that I marked them as patrolled in such instances? If so, please explain. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:01, 19 April 2011 (EDT)
I may not understand the purpose of marking a revision as "patrolled." I have been operating on the basis that doing so means that I approve of the edit. What does it actually mean? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:43, 19 April 2011 (EDT)
It means that you either approve of the edit or have fixed the part of the edit that you do not approve. So clicken 'mark as patrolled' tells the rest of us that we do not need to check the edit because you have done it already, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 07:41, 19 April 2011 (EDT)
I see. Thanks for explaining. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 10:44, 19 April 2011 (EDT)

Once again, thanks for patrolling. One hint: I see you patrol one edit at a time, which of course is ok, but if you would like to patrol all recent changes to one artilce in one move, you can go to Prefences > Recent changes, and click 'Enhanced recent changes (JavaScript)', regards, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 05:28, 25 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks. I'll try that and see how it works. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:34, 25 April 2011 (EDT)
It really will make a difference. When I first discovered that feature it was like a whole new world of Wikivoyage efficiency :). --(WT-en) Burmesedays 06:23, 25 April 2011 (EDT)


Hi! I have seen your comment on vfd concerning Forex. Felix is not an admin, so when he sees spam he needs to label with vfd so an admin sees it and hits the delete button. (WT-en) jan 04:33, 29 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks. I understand. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 14:44, 29 April 2011 (EDT)

Pure Lotus Edits - Yangshuo China

You asked about my edits on the above page. The reason that I am changing the Pure lotus listing is simple. It is wrong. I am a freelance travel writer on commission for a large US publisher. I am writing this from Yangshuo. In order to update the current edition info of the book that I am working on that includes Pure Lotus, I went to the restaurant myself. I confronted both the manager Xiao Dai, and the owner Malcom The, about the criticisms on the wikivoyage page, and both assured me that they are unfounded. Perhaps you have some extra information that I do not know about? I am not sure who wrote the original piece but it seems unfair that one person's opinion, offering no additional explanation should be acceptable as a wikivoyage listing. Sbouldn't wikivoyage be based on facts rather than personal opinions? Isn't that what Tripadvisor is for? I hope that this explains my edits. Chris

No, I don't have more information. All you had to do was explain why you're making the edits, which you now have done. You should be able to understand that we have quite a lot of touters and self-interested people here who would make the kind of edits you made without comment for commercial reasons, and not in the interest of accuracy. So we can't just assume there's a good reason for the kind of edit you made.
As for the question you ask about facts vs. opinions: Wikivoyage shouldn't be a purveyor of false information, but it is not supposed to be objective. The policy is summed up here: Project:Be fair
Thanks for explaining things, and please keep contributing but explain in the editing Summary why you're making any non-obvious changes.
All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:31, 9 May 2011 (EDT)


It looks like an inadvertent reversion caused me to repost some graffiti on May 2, 2011 in the Hinchinbrook Island guide. Sorry about that. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:51, 15 May 2011 (EDT)

Hi there. Just out of courtesy I want to let you know that I have reverted your deletion here [1], as this is the correct article for that operator (who is a good one). I realise why you deleted it as the user inserted it into the region and sub-region articles as well, but I think it ought to stay in the correct article. Cheers --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:28, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the courtesy, and for your knowledgeable second opinion. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:36, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

NYC pizza

Thanks for offering the local perspective on that John's Pizzeria listing I added. I'm not familiar with the NYC pizza scene, but after watching this Daily Show clip I figured I'd better make sure these places were at least mentioned on Wikivoyage. ;) (WT-en) PerryPlanet Talk 19:43, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

That was a hilarious segment! And you are making good additions, which are much appreciated. I wouldn't recommend that location of John's, but it is extremely popular, though mostly with tourists. We New Yorkers usually spend as little time as possible at Times Square, nowadays. :-) All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:50, 4 June 2011 (EDT)
Whoa, that video was legendary! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 12:46, 7 June 2011 (EDT)

As requested

Here you go :) Wikivoyage_talk:User_ban_nominations#User_talk:Xiali1208. Cheers. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:27, 11 June 2011 (EDT)


Hi there (with apologies for a cut and paste message). I am trying to muster up some interest again in the now almost moribund Destination of the Month feature. This used to be one of our more dynamic initiatives with lots of debate. Sadly, that is no longer the case. I have made some new nominations to try to get it going again. If you have a moment please pop over there. And some nominations would be good if you can think of any! Thanks. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:22, 9 July 2011 (EDT)

Wadi Rum

Hello Ikan Kekek,

Thank you to take care of wikivoyage pages.

You ask if Jordantracks is an abusive company. We also remark that people are making a lot of changes in the page, adding and deleting informations about us and about others. The final result appears that Jordantracks can't be mention in the same way than the others and is always the one removed. Could you please help for this page as it would be good that everyone have the chance to appear in the same way.

Kind regards,


Hi, Saleem, and thanks for contacting me. Are you representing Jordantracks? I would suggest that you post to the "Talk" page of the Wadi Rum guide if you believe you are being unfairly treated, rather than that you or someone else presumably representing Jordantracks has made abusive edits. Because what I observe is that you or someone else was posting up to 4 separate entries for Jordantracks and deleting competitors' information. I already made clear what was wrong here - [[2]] - among other places. There is also a very firm policy against business owners (managers, etc.) deleting competitors' listings, but it should be so obvious that's wrong, and at least looks and smells so much like bad faith, that I don't feel I need to link to the policy.
If you want to post an entry for your agency, do so, do it once, don't tout or use 1st-person language, and don't delete or edit any other agency's listing.
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:39, 13 July 2011 (EDT)
PS: It's customary to sign posts in "Talk" pages - though not guides - by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) in a row at the end of one's post.

Koh Tao

Hello Ikan Kekek,

thank you for pointing out that there should be only one business listing, but as you might know diving and freediving are quite different and its not about having Alvaro Diving listed twice, but to have a listing in the right category. Since there is a "diving" and a separate "freediving" section Alvaro Diving belongs in both of them, otherwise you will find only one company in the freediving section and the other one somewhere hidden amongst the dive shops. do you have any suggestions on how to deal with the category listings other then deleting Alvaro Diving all the time?? Regards, Andreas

Sure, Andreas, and thanks for asking. Pick which type of diving you want to emphasize more, put the listing in that section, and indicate in your listing that you offer the other activity, too. That will enable you to put the information out there, and I believe it's probably the only solution that conforms to Wikivoyage's listing policy.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:01, 18 July 2011 (EDT)


Hi! Currently there are some trolls that delete and move articles a lot. There is not need to argue with them as they vandalise. Please immediately block them and delete their created mess. Thank you, (WT-en) jan 04:08, 4 August 2011 (EDT)

Please point out instances of this happening. I am here only part of the time and don't see everything that happens.
That said, I probably wouldn't block a user right away unless they were an obvious spambot. We all need to deal with a certain degree of frustration and use some measure of restraint. Some users start out disruptively but improve greatly. I've certainly seen that with some users who used to be seemingly inveterate touters.
All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:15, 4 August 2011 (EDT)


I am just checking, do you have an account on Wikivoyage Shared? If yes, you may, if you like, become an administrator there, which are privileges automatically given to admins from other language versions that want them. If not, I suppose you might prefer to first become acquainted with the policies and procedures over there ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 18:20, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

Hi, Peter. No, I don't have an account there. So I'm definitely not ready to become an administrator there at this time. :-) All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:54, 11 August 2011 (EDT)



I realise that lately you are often plying a lone battle with edit patrolling. Much of that is due to other regular patrollers being so frustrated by the slowness of the site. Huge kudos to you for carrying on with this against the odds. You certainly deserve one of these. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 07:11, 26 August 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the appreciation, Burmesedays. I, too, am frustrated by the slowness of the site.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:02, 26 August 2011 (EDT)


Hi Ikan, I can understand your confusion. The shallow and sketchy reporting on Libya by the worlds media is not particularly informing, not in an way that is reality based anyway. There seems to be a determined move to legitimise the NTC by NATO allied governments and their media services but even the National Transitional Council do not claim to have formed a government. Indeed they recently again suspended plans to do so. They are subject to considerable internal divisions and conflict and occasionally bump each other off. Some qualified commentators consider that the place is going to go downhill even further and I will not be surprised if this odd assemblage of provocateurs, traitors and defectors from the original government, various ex-muǧāhidūn and so-called al-Qaeda elements don't go even more feral soon and start shooting at each other now that they are apparently running out members of the Libyan armed forces, Gaddafi supporters and angry residents to blaze away at. It would be naive to expect any democratic form of governance to emerge in Libya in the foreseeable future. As for the NTC, Mahmoud Jibril recently announced he is quitting. "We have moved into a political struggle with no boundaries," ... "The political struggle requires finances, organization, arms and ideologies,".... "I am afraid I don't have any of this." Indeed what the western press avoids reporting is that many of these so called rebels are not even part of the NTC and are likely to become combative if the current controlling elements of the NTC try to exert power as a national governing body. Indeed even putting the NTC flag in the article is highly questionable. The African Union certainly had a lot of difficulty in recognising these people as a legitimate authority in Libya. It must not be overlooked that Libya is flooded with a lot of fools carrying weapons and a lot of them have become accustomed to making their point of view understood by shooting at those who disagree with them. Indeed any detailed analysis of the situation in Libya will reveal a picture almost diametrically opposed to that presented in the western media. It has every chance of turning into a madhouse of quasi corporate governance mixed up with combative and competing private militias and extremist groups squabbling, maneuvering assassinating and shooting at each other. Libya is now a very unstable, fractured nation with a seriously damaged infrastructure from the NATO aerial campaign and ground based conflicts and no established civil governance. Libya is most certainly not a stable and suitable destination for a traveller and is unlikely to be so for some time. I think the Libyan articles are going to be subject to ongoing manipulation and posturing by self effected propagandists for some time. Lets just try and steer it toward the interests of the traveller whenever this sort of recent editing occurs. The warningbox needs some subtle rewriting to accommodate the most recent events and the possible cessation of air and missile strikes. -- cheers --(WT-en) felix 06:31, 22 October 2011 (EDT)

I certainly agree with you - the traveller comes first, propaganda be damned. Thanks for all you do, felix. You are an indefatigable editor! All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 20:31, 22 October 2011 (EDT)


Hi Ikan,

im suprised that most of articles are lacking info, i got my info through wikipedia as noticed most of the articles have used information from wikipedia. is that ok?. Sorry im new at this--(WT-en) Anthrogex11 14:41, 10 November 2011 (EST)

Hi. Have a look here: Project:Cooperating with Wikipedia. I think this is probably the key point:
"Wikipedia and Wikivoyage have compatible licensing, and it is technically possible to share content between the two provided the license requirements are followed; in general this entails providing attribution indicating the source from which the content was taken using the Wikipedia attribution template.
However, think carefully before doing this, and discuss it with others. Wikipedia and Wikivoyage have distinct goals, and forking large amounts of content from one project to the other creates wasteful duplication, and can actually stifle the development of creative, original content. In most cases, linking from one to the other would be a better choice.
As a rule, any significant copy-pasting of Wikipedia text to Wikivoyage is not permitted, while borrowing the odd single turn of phrase when your writers' brain is stalling is allowed."
So basically, what I'd say is don't copy and paste to any large extent, but taking travel-related information from Wikipedia and paraphrasing it is fine.
You might also want to run this by folks at the Travellers' Pub. I haven't been an administrator on this site very long, and others have much more experience with this kind of issue.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 21:45, 10 November 2011 (EST)

Hi Ikan, sorry I'm new to writing for Wikis. All my work seems to have gone. I can find it in older versions, but can't understand what's going on. I see you made a comment. Was it rolled back? I tried to edit it to remove the first person as much as I could, but in some cases not possible. Thanks.

Who is this and what article is this in reference to? Please sign your posts on "Talk" pages by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) in a row before pressing "Enter." But in any case, please explain enough of what you're talking about that I can understand what happened and where. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:18, 12 November 2011 (EST)
OK, I see from the History that you are Gautam Khanna, but when I click on your contributions, your edit of the Changsha article is the current version. It looks like none of your edits were reverted (deleted), and the only edit I made was to change "defend" to "defended."
In looking through your helpful contributions to the article, the only problem I'm seeing is the use of first-person language, which is not part of the style of this site. So please read Project:First person pronouns and Project:Tone. When you have time, you can also look at Project:Manual of style. In any case, your 1st-person language and accounts will eventually be deleted or edited by someone, but you posted a lot of good content, and I thank you for that. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:25, 12 November 2011 (EST)

Mandarmani hijackers-the Bengal cowboys

Hi Ikan, regarding that recent MB Resorts edit...

Here are some of the other appearances of the contact number from that listing you just reverted due to the excessive Capitalisations. I thought I recognised the number and so I checked in my brief notes on the articles and other web listings relating to the Bengal area that have the sticky finger markings of these characters all over them

  • Bakkhali Hotel Amarabati 8100291011
  • Mandarmani / Tajpu 91 33 8100291011 from Hotel Sonarbangla Resorts
  • Digha‎ Hotel Dolphin 8100291011
  • Digha‎ Rojana Beach 91 33 8100291011

The URL is just a bait job as well.

I think it is reasonable to assume that (WT-en) M.B.Resorts is not playing the game straight. I have looked him over and this single edit has been the only activity with that account so far. Seeing as Mr Ryan likes to deal with these nefarious sorts of things I will leave him a note to have a look at this message here, I assume he might like to spam block the URL and that tel number, though I thought that number had already been dealt with when I raised it months ago after doing those serious sweep outs of the Bengali articles. I do not have the necessary buttons myself so I cannot send him to the bottom of the sea to visit the sea shells.-- (WT-en) felix 07:14, 15 November 2011 (EST)

There are a lot of these kinds of spammers/scammers. And thanks for being so vigilant and for tirelessly detouting and reformatting so many articles - you are a gem! (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:10, 18 November 2011 (EST)


Hi Ikan - I restored the IATA article that you speedy deleted to put it through the normal VFD process. While it's something that will almost certainly be deleted, it looks like it was created in good faith and there were three articles that linked to that subject, so using the normal VFD process seems like the right approach. Please understand that I don't think you did anything wrong - I just think this is (barley) enough of a borderline case that it makes sense to follow the normal procedure for deletion. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:25, 18 November 2011 (EST)

Thanks for the heads-up. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:08, 18 November 2011 (EST)

liked your descriptive welcome messages..

like your welcome message to new users so much better than the standard one.. --(WT-en) Inas 02:06, 28 November 2011 (EST)

Thanks. I liked one you posted recently. Glad I was able to inspire you! (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:58, 28 November 2011 (EST)

El Salvador

Hi Ikan. I'm a Brazilian user, and mostly act on the Portuguese version of Wikivoyage, but stay alert in English as well, I've come to love and support the Wiktravel standards and format. Maybe you should check out the recent edits about El Salvador, one user who's most likely a publicist for the Tortuga Verde resort did a lot of entries that smell of toutism. Perhaps I'm a little high strung about it then I decided it's best to ask expert advice about it. Let's keep Wikivoyage up where it deserves! All the best. 18:50, 9 December 2011 (EST)

Hello. I have been looking at those entries and made some conservative edits. I am troubled by the spamming of the same information to several guides, as well as the listing a single resort in more than one place, which is forbidden, and which you were completely right to revert. Thank you for your help, and I hope you stick around and continue to help us patrol those articles.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:04, 9 December 2011 (EST)


Hi, i just edited the bucharest hostels list, i added my hostel and removed 2 other hostels that have been closed 2 years ago, namely east hostel and vila helga. I noticed you reverted the edits. I would like then to just add my hostel, and leave the other 2 there , even if they dont exit. Could i do that? Thanks

Hi. I just added your IP to keep things straight. It's customary to sign your name in "Talk" pages by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) in a row before pressing "Enter," and it's also customary to start a new section at the bottom of the page.
All that aside, it sounds like your edits were totally valid; all you needed to do was explain them in an edit summary before you did them. Go ahead and put up your listing, but avoid first person, and redelete the listings for the closed hostels. Indicate in your edit summary "added listing, deleting listings for closed hostels."
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:21, 19 December 2011 (EST)
Nevermind; I deleted those listings. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:22, 19 December 2011 (EST)

Vang Vieng

Hi Ikan, Run your eyes over this group of edits, I would appreciate your POV. -- (WT-en) felix 14:59, 20 December 2011 (EST)

Hi, Felix. The thing that jumps out at me is the allegations about the police. But I have no personal knowledge about the behavior of the police in Vang Vieng, so I'm in no position to offer an opinion. Otherwise, "Politically incorrect jokes are a must" is a strange thing to put in a "Sleep" listing but nothing I care all that much about.
What jumps out at you?
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:29, 20 December 2011 (EST)
I feel prety much the same I guess. I was going to leave it as was but thought it might be good to get a second opinion as it is a bit odd. I also have no direct knowledge regarding the local plods. I guess it would not be a worlds first instance if there was some local funny business going on. I will just leave it I reckon. Sounds like eating rice porridge there has a few worrying issues, I will bear that in mind if I am there and feel a bit hungry for some bubur. It also seems that the guy he is most disturbed about works for the immigration services anyway, and not the police. I think it is the tourists that would have me more worried than the police in Vang Vieng, the place seems a bit unhinged. -- hope you are keeping well... oh BTY I did a little tidy up on Pedasi and did a listing edit on the apartment listing on the discussion page. --cheers - (WT-en) felix 16:49, 20 December 2011 (EST)
Yes, I saw that. Thank you.
If you have a chance, I'd also like some help with M'Hamid. I posted for help in the Travellers' Guide, but hardly anyone seems to be reading that, lately. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:55, 20 December 2011 (EST)
  • I have gone through the listing of camel and 4x4 tours and made some suggestions on the Discussion page. I think we might need to do a bit of a spring cleaning there. I think you would be quite justified in making some bold changes. I am uncertain about the listings as a whole, I guess as it seems to be such a feature of that town then it deserves such a dominating section in the article. The section stands out as the article is otherwise quite undeveloped, makes it lok a bit like a listing venue fo various camel and 4x4 trek operators, some of which should probably be cleaned out per general WT guidelines. Have a look over my Remove/Retain comments and if you agree then I think we should just do it. Certainly I would support you in that action.-- (WT-en) felix 08:03, 21 December 2011 (EST)
Pisa article. "If these are really sights, they should be moved back to "See," but if they were "mythic" educational institutions, they would be imaginary!". Quite right to move them as you did, I was so amused by the mythic educational institutions" I could not bring myself to do it. Leaning towers and mythic educational institutions have a certain symbiosis when appraised in the middle of the night. I guess really I should have fixed it up when I did the small tidy up there last night but the outbreak of serial walkingstreethostel edit reverts sort of distracted me. -- (WT-en) felix 08:03, 21 December 2011 (EST)


do i have a reason for removing my listing from manhattan? 04:16, 7 January 2012 (EST)tarasnake

What listing? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:21, 7 January 2012 (EST)


I have seen your discussion on Jjtk talk page. Only as an admin the rollback leads to automatic patrolling. All non-Admin user need to click seperate for patrolling. (WT-en) Jc8136 06:06, 16 January 2012 (EST)

I see. Thanks for explaining. I had forgotten that rollback is an administrative function and that non-administrators have to revert. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:31, 16 January 2012 (EST)


I'm not a big grammar person, but regarding this revert, "...Secretary of State, William H. Seward (1801-1872), who...", while the second comma might be OK, the first one is questionable. For example, you wouldn't write "action by President, Barack Obama, who...". In any case, not a big deal, but the English student in me wanted to defend my grammar knowledge :) -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:39, 20 January 2012 (EST)

You're right: I misread it to say "the Secretary of State, William H. Seward." I'll revert my edit. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:45, 20 January 2012 (EST)

Piatra Craiului National Park

Hi, I changed my remark about a EU founded road passing the house of the minister of tourism to a more neutral sentence myself. Knowing the corruption in Romania it does not seem to be a coincedence when she has a house there. Especially when driving on the road you wonder why they ever built it. At the other hand I only heard about this house from a local. I would like to make this statement only when the house is realy there and some more proof of corruption can be found. I would like to re-undo your action.

--(WT-en) Bfwelter 11:08, 20 January 2012 (EST)

Go right ahead. Thanks for the explanation.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:48, 20 January 2012 (EST)

It's all written in Turkish and lately we had a couple of turkish articles that don't belong here. Is it worth to keep or not? Regards, (WT-en) Jc8136 08:43, 24 January 2012 (EST)

Hi. I moved your post to a new section at the bottom of this talk page in order to be able to read it and reply. Someone deleted the Turkish-language article in question in the interim. Any new article in that's not written in English should be deleted, and any edits not in English should be reverted. There are Wikivoyage sites in other languages, where a Turkish-language article might be relevant, but I suspect this article was probably advertising spam.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:12, 25 January 2012 (EST)
Incidently, on top of being in Turkish, that article was a non-travel-related information page about the state of wind power generation in Turkey. (WT-en) texugo 00:27, 25 January 2012 (EST)
I assumed it was spam. I always assume anything article posted in a non-English language is spam, and that's been true with languages I understand, too. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:32, 25 January 2012 (EST)

Bangkok bicycle tours

I'm not sure why you have removed [5] all the bicycle tours in Bangkok? They are a value-added activity. Cycling on your own in Bangkok is virtually impossible, as it it is incredibly hazardous. A cycling trip would definitely need to be done in some kind of tour. --(WT-en) Globe-trotter 04:00, 25 January 2012 (EST)

In that case, the listings should be restored but have to be realphabetized and some have to be detouted. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:21, 25 January 2012 (EST)

La Paz

Hi Ikan K, sorry I only noticed your post on the pub page well after I put the comments on the La Paz discussion page. I had been watching it for a while and thought about trying to give you some support but backed away as I could not readily identify a way to assist. Plus our electricity is on and off so often now that it is like a disco light show. It is normally bad here but there is also a cyclone not to far away and things have going a bit crazy with trees going over and killing people and ships capsizing or threatening to do so from the ferocious waves. Accordingly our internet connection here comes on and off rather frequently. I hope my comments on the La Paz page do assist. It is certainly a difficult and sometimes vexing problem and this particular listing although it appears quite legitimate still bears some issues with our understanding of the prevailing policies. Even with tour guides, some of them may be highly qualified and have something literally unique to contribute to a travellers experience that is otherwise unavailable. Very hard for us to determine that, although sometimes the 'can the traveller do it on their own' aspect will assist with that one. I think you explained it al very well on the La Paz Talk page but equally I can understand the frustration and POV of the person wishing to list his friend who provides the tuition services, especially as she was listed previously without event. Cheers -- (WT-en) felix 13:13, 28 January 2012 (EST)

Felix: Be safe! And thanks, as always, for your thoughtful perspective. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 18:13, 28 January 2012 (EST)

Banaue tour guides

The two tour guides, one of them a driver, listed in the Do section seem to be in conflict with the general policies on listing tour guides. They do not seem to be doing anything that requires a permit or restricted areas access and do not appear to be taking anyone to a place that they could not go to themselves. I do not though that one of them is described as providing "regular treks in the Northern Luzon, but also some extreme activities". this is not really defined very clearly though. He is described as "accredited" but it is not explained by who he is 'accredited' or what it is that he is accredited to do. I think I would be inclined to delete them both, or move them to the Talk page and leave them there for discussion.-- (WT-en) felix 13:22, 28 January 2012 (EST)


I was hoping I could include you in an ongoing discussion group for WT admins, to which I realized you are not subscribed. If you'd like to join in, please email me, and I will send the Google Groups invite to the email of your choosing. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 16:49, 9 February 2012 (EST)

It looks like I can't email you unless I want to make my email address visible to all users here. If you can see a way around that, please let me know. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:10, 10 February 2012 (EST)
I guess the best way would be to enable it, send me an email, and then disable it. By the way, enabling email won't actually make your email visible to the internet. It just makes it possible to send you an email (and, of course, if you reply to that, your email will be made clear to the recipient). --(WT-en) Peter Talk 14:22, 10 February 2012 (EST)


Thanks for fixing that typo, I think my eyes need testing. -- (WT-en) felix 08:48, 23 February 2012 (EST)

You do a great job, and it's easy to miss things like that. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 15:02, 23 February 2012 (EST)

Personal Talk Page Edits

Hello Ivan,

After I edited my talk page recently, you reverted it with a note stating: "You are not allowed to remove content from your user talk page". I believe this may be in error. The closest policy I can find is: "In general, conversations aren't deleted from talk pages but are instead archived when they are old or no longer relevant. To archive discussions simply create a new page such as User talk:Mypage/Archive and copy the old discussions to it."

If I'm in error, please direct me to the appropriate policy. Thanks!

In the mean time, I have gone ahead and moved it to an archive page as discussed in the policy.

My name isn't Ivan, first of all. But archiving is not the same as deleting. Every talk page is a record of discussions, and can't just be deleted unilaterally. There is a Votes for deletion procedure for proposed deletions of pages that aren't completely obvious candidates for speedy deletion. And I'm unconvinced the content you deleted is no longer relevant. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 22:54, 26 February 2012 (EST)
So your argument is that discussion that's less than a month old is "old or no longer relevant"? Very weak argument. I disagree. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:22, 26 February 2012 (EST)

Lima regional listings

Hi IK, good spotting. I did not even notice the listings were out of place, indeed I think I probably just went there to patrol an edit and got caught up in a little tidy up while I was there but did not pay any attention to the relative hierarchical status of the article. Those listings should be moved out but I do not know the area well enough to confidently move any listings into the correct sub-articles. BTY have a look over La Paz and make sure that you approve. I came in after the listing was restored and did a mild article-wide tidy up and left a welcome note on the contributors Talk page thanking them for their efforts as I noticed that neither of us had done that. I assume you are comfortable with the outcome. I will try and keep an eye on that article as well following the recent changes to those language schools. --Salam ke mr ikan-- (WT-en) felix 05:00, 3 March 2012 (EST).

I'm not familiar with Lima, either. I'll have a look at the La Paz article within a couple of days.
Yang ikhlas,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:34, 3 March 2012 (EST)


On the off chance that you haven't heard the "please do not feed the trolls" mantra that is standard on wikis, it's generally best to pay vandals as little attention as possible. User talk page messages such as this one are often just enough to let them know that they've gotten under someone's skin, and may be enough to encourage them to continue. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 19:07, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

I hear you. I posted that as a record, so that we can remember to block the user for a longer amount of time next time, but I can do that in a matter-of-fact way next time or just post nothing. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:56, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
You'll see any previous blocks if you go to re-block a user (for example), even after the blocks have expired. Makes it easy to avoid other acknowledgement. -- (WT-en) D. Guillaime 21:01, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
I didn't realize that. Thanks for letting me know. I will act accordingly. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 21:27, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
Thanks for clarifying - I figured there was a reason for the talk page posting, but wanted to note the "do not feed" advice just in case. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:22, 19 March 2012 (EDT)
I'm glad you did. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:05, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

Nuweiba posting

Hi Ikan, saw you removed an external link to Instead of deleting a useful link, you could have moved it/made sure it was in the right format? There is hardly any info on Nuweiba and what is on Wikivoyage is extremely outdated, so I thought the above mentioned link might be useful to the audience of Wikivoyage. But if you think Wikivoyage is better off without useful info, that's okay for me too. Regards, Ali

Nuweiba posting

Hi Ilkan, saw you removed an external link to Instead of deleting a useful link, you could have moved it/made sure it was in the right format? There is hardly any info on Nuweiba and what is on Wikivoyage is extremely outdated, so I thought the above mentioned link might be useful to the audience of Wikivoyage. But if you think Wikivoyage is better off without useful info, that's okay for me too. Regards, Ali

Hi, Ali. As I wrote in my editing summary, which you can see at [6], portals cannot be linked on Wikivoyage, per the policy detailed at this link: xl, and specifically Project:External links#What not to link to. If you would like to suggest changes to that policy, the place to have that discussion is at Project:External links. I don't think a suggestion to change the external links policy would be successful, however, because information portals are competitors with this guide, and I won't even bring up likely responses to any suggestion of allowing listings of hotel reservation or ticket purchasing portals - but again, discuss them in that talk page if you feel strongly, because that's the place where decisions can be made. Under current guidelines, it simply is not possible to list a portal. However, useful, relevant, and non-touty information on that portal can be summarized or paraphrased and put into the Nuweiba article.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:35, 13 April 2012 (EDT)

Last Vientiane Revert

The reference to iSpot was intended to supplement the wikivoyageers to Vientiane as it is a free information center. It is not a Tour Agency or Operator. If not on grounds of Tour, what would be the nature of the revert? Thanks!

Hi. Those were the grounds. If it's really not selling anything, it's probably fine to list it, but you'll get more visibility for the discussion of why it's OK if you post a message on Talk:Vientiane. And when you do, please sign it by typing 4 tildes (the "`" key) in a row.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:36, 20 April 2012 (EDT)
I may have been too hasty in my last post. xl should be looked at, too. Post to Talk:Vientiane, and let's discuss it. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:49, 20 April 2012 (EDT)
Thanks, will do


I removed the permanent block on this account as it doesn't look like a bot to me - there weren't any URLs on the user page, and the edits weren't done immediately after user registration, which are both usually good "tells" for a bot. However, a temp block might be warranted if the user continues to upload advertising logos and put tour advertising on the user page. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:59, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

OK, let's see. But I think this user will be a continual problem. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:15, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
Feel free to use shorter term blocks if that's the case - my only concern is that infinite blocks are a fairly harsh measure, and are only meant to be used in rare cases, such as when there isn't a real user operating the account. On a related note, thanks yet again for all of your patrolling - you have far more tolerance for reviewing edits than I do! -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:04, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
Certainly. And I do understand that, given any doubt, it is best not to block an account permanently. So I appreciate your decision. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 14:27, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Car rental provider listing

Hi Ikan, We are a car rental service providers, we are not typical aggregators. We take care of end to end car rental service in 75+ cities in India to make tourist's journey easy and convenient,We own the customers (We provide the service; if any issue customer can directly contact us)hence I am not violating any rules.Look forward to hearing from you. Thank you. - Unsigned Nehapb

Dear Nehapb:
I hope you don't mind that I took the liberty of creating a new section at the bottom of this page and moving your post there, for the sake of easier reading.
This is from the FAQ on your website:
"What is is an online car rental booking service currently available across 75 cities in India. Our service enables customers to search for car rental/hire options in terms of operators, vehicle type, price points and then make an online reservation by making an advance payment."
"Why can’t I book from an operator directly?
Your favourite operator in your home city may or may not have operations in other cities. By using, you get access to a cross section of operators across cities, vehicles and prices giving you the freedom of choice."
Whether you are a typical booking service or not, I cannot judge, but you are very clearly and avowedly a booking service, and because of that, you may not be linked or have listings on this site. If you would like to argue that Wikivoyage's policy on booking services ill serves travellers in some way and should be changed, you are welcome to go to Project:External links and start a new thread at the bottom of the page. If you do, please sign your post, as is customary on talk pages, by typing the tilde key (~) 4 times in a row before pressing "Enter" at the end of your post. A discussion might be good for the site, so I would encourage you to set forth your arguments there.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:17, 7 May 2012 (EDT)

Thank You.

Utrecht Free Tours

Hi, just wanted to let you know I just found out I was the second person trying to add the Utrecht Free Tours to wikivoyage. I just red the guidelines on activity listings and will try to write something that complies to it. We are definately offering an experience that adds somethings to visiting Utrecht, and we are 100% non profit (even the tips are used to invest in a better tour). I will try so suggest that it is nice to take a free tour in Utrecht without referring to OUR free tour. IF that is not right, please help me in finding out what IS right and what is the difference between the Utrecht Free Tour and the Riga Free Tour [7] thnx, Jasper

Hi, Jasper. Your proposed edit sounds fine to me, as long as it's a comment and not an entry, but it's possible some other volunteer editors may not agree, in which case it would be best to discuss this in Talk:Utrecht. The Riga listing shouldn't be there, either, but please understand that these kinds of edits are often put back just as quickly as they are removed, so at any particular time, you may see a listing that shouldn't be there. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:38, 7 May 2012 (EDT)

Hi Ikan, I am very unconvinced concerning this content introduced into the Bali article. I have edited the recent reinstatement of the content however I note it was previously removed by Ryan (due to touting) and has returned, still with a touty emphasis. I have not seen the publication so it is difficult to assess the appropriateness of the content in a travellers context. I have left a note on Ryan's talk page as well as yours as he has been involved in corrective edits to Anand Ashram related content. I am also a little curious about (WT-en) Adisucipta and obviously the new contributions in the reading section of the Bali article raises the question of who (WT-en) Adisucipta and (WT-en) Anand Ashram are, and if indeed they are the same contributor. We have both left a note on Anand Ashram's talk page, doesn't seem to have had much effect though. I have also recently been editing Anand Ashram content in the Jakarta, Ubud and Bogor articles. -- (WT-en) felix 08:20, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

That edit caught my eye, too. Since I don't know the book, I took no action. Your edits are good. I would observe that it's because of these kinds of sometimes self-serving edits that listing suggested reading material can become a problem. It may become most appropriate to delete the entire section, though I don't yet recommend that "throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater" action. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:18, 9 May 2012 (EDT)
Followup: Look at Wrh2's latest editing summary: [8] (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:20, 9 May 2012 (EDT)\
Appropriate action by Wrh2 I think and it has my full support, that contributor/s is rather active in a 'promotional' sense at present, I hope they calm down soon. --cheers-- (WT-en) felix 22:37, 9 May 2012 (EDT)
"Free, but donations are accepted" whoops, thanks for spotting that, I only just noticed your corrective edit. -- (WT-en) felix 23:58, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

Regarding your help with the Can Tho page. We appreciate your help in regards to making us aware about links and the site policies as well as help on other parts. In regards to content, could we use the discussion page though? It would be nice, if you do not delete the content about free student tours. We are working on the site as part of a student project and constantly add content at the moment. It would be great, if you could help with improving the text itself as well. We are all non-native English speakers and would be happy if someone can contribute here as well. For the moment we would like to keep the tours inside. If you have any deeper concerns, could you please discuss with us on the talk page? Thank you -(WT-en) Mario

Hi, Mario. I appreciate the content you're putting up, and I will certainly have a look from time to time and see if any of it needs editing. However, I cannot control what other volunteer editors do, and the precedent has been that listings for tours, regardless of whether they're free or not, are reverted in every article where they are placed, in view of the tour policy. If you would like to argue for more exceptions to the restrictions on listing tours, I would recommend that you post your argument in Project:Activity listings. However, before you do that, I would suggest that you read this particular discussion a bit: [9]
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:00, 10 May 2012 (EDT)
Hello Ikan Keke,
I understand the guideline and I agree: Tours should offer something as a supplement, rather than a replacement for Wikivoyage guides. They should count as an activity available at a destination.
The particularity of the student tours are that they give people the chance to meet locals in their environment and apart from the usual tourist paths - Wikivoyage could not offer that and other tours do not offer this here. Visitors have the chance to meet English speaking locals, something not so easy here normally. As written in the explanation, visitors will also have the chance to get info about current developments, that would not be possible to cover in in Wikivoyage or other guides. Additionally, the tour allows people to access places with the guides, that are not usually available to tourists, e.g. manufacture area of tailors or a meet up with monks. We should probably clarify this in the description.
Thank you for your support and help to understand the working of the site better.
(WT-en) Mario 02:34, 10 May 2012 (EDT)
Again, I think you should be discussing the policy on tours at Project:Activity listings, because the same argument could be made for free tours in any other place, yet current practice is to revert (delete) such listings. If policy is to be changed, the change will have to be site-wide. I do see where you're going, though: If you can show that your particular tour adds so much value that it's unusual, that might engender a different reaction, even without a site-wide change of policy. It might be advisable to discuss that in Talk:Can Tho, though, in order to involve more people and reach a consensus. Sorry to sound so bureaucratic. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:34, 10 May 2012 (EDT)


Thanks for the welcome, Ikan! Hopefully I'll be able to make some valuable contributions around here. I noticed on your talk page you want to visit some cities with amazing mosques. May I recommend Dhaka? Haha, I may be biased, but Wikipedia does give it the title of the "City of Mosques". Enjoy your travels! (WT-en) JamesA >talk 05:09, 14 May 2012 (EDT)

Thanks, James. Yeah, Dhaka could be an interesting place to visit. So many places to go, so little time! :-) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:07, 14 May 2012 (EDT)

I'm admittedly not a grammar person, but your revert in the Mogadishu article seems to be reverting three changes that look correct to me. Since I was the one who marked that edit as patrolled, please let me know if I missed something. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 19:29, 24 May 2012 (EDT)

I think I was experiencing some technical glitches on Wikivoyage earlier. I know there was another article in which I deleted spam links, and the "edit" view showed that they were gone, but even after I cleared my cache, the regular view was showing all the links I had deleted. So I will try to fix the two obvious errors. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:49, 25 May 2012 (EDT)
Thanks! As noted, I'm not much with the words, but that edit struck me as being OK so I appreciate the confirmation. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 10:55, 25 May 2012 (EDT)

Page move vandalism

As an FYI since your edit comment indicated you had questions about fixing page moves, if you ever have to remove page move vandalism, go to the Move Log and there is an "undo" button next to each entry. Note that if a page is moved multiple times (A → B → C) then you need to "undo" the move in the reverse order (C → B → A). -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 10:55, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

Thanks, Ryan. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:29, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

Too many Ikan

So that would be an unrequired school of fish someone has called up from the depths :)

Might call for a speargun to cull out the bottom feeders and assorted miscreants.

I have voiced my support for an editing lock down, hope it assists to strengthen your own comments and advice. cheers--(WT-en) felix 22:45, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

Thanks, Felix. Seekor ikan cukuplah. :-) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:02, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
Benar, terlalu banyak ikan nakal, aku harapan semoga sukses mancing -- (WT-en) felix 23:22, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
Terima kasih, Felix. Sedaplah makan ikan... :-) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:07, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

Delete JamesA/Bangladesh

Hey Ivan. Could you please delete JamesA/Bangladesh? I've moved it into my userspace, after accidentally creating it in the mainspace. Thanks. (WT-en) JamesA >talk 10:15, 16 June 2012 (EDT)

Hi, James. My name isn't Ivan. :-) I'll poke around your user page and see if I understand things clearly. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:55, 16 June 2012 (EDT)
Someone already put in a redirect. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:56, 16 June 2012 (EDT)
Apologies for calling you a Malaysian fish (and mispelling it with a "v")! Yes, it was automatically turned into a redirect when I moved it, but wasn't sure if redirects from the mainspace to the userspace were appropriate. If there's no issue, it can be left as-is. Thanks, (WT-en) JamesA >talk 03:14, 17 June 2012 (EDT)
Ikan Kekek is a Malaysian fish, so no issue there. :-) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:59, 17 June 2012 (EDT)

Mythinkhouse- Arusha Wiki Travel Edit questions

First of all thank you for your time. I originally had some posts taken down by you on June 15th I think. It was my first time posting so could see my mistakes based on your feedback which I appreciated.

Today I posted again for my restaurant (Mexican Cafe) in a manner that I thought was very acceptable. But I do not see it? Wondering if you had any feedback.

I also have a night club that I added into the "Drink" section of the page. I believe I can see where you took down this post in my history. It looks like it was replacing another location. The reason I replaced that location was because that club no longer exists in the city.

Please let me know any feed back so I can get it right. I don't want my account to be blocked.

Again the restaurant I felt was perfectly fine but don't see it listed. Feeback?

The Club AQ I see you said not to take down another location, but the one I did no longer exists.

Thank you in advance!


Hi, Patrick. Have read through don't tout? My editing summary for my latest reversion of your edits was as follows:
"Deleted per don't tout, etc. One listing only - no other mention - and never substitute your listing for another's."
Is that unclear? You can post a single listing for a business; you cannot mention it anywhere else. Had that been your first edit, I might have tried fixing it myself, but I want you to read and understand don't tout, and I don't think you've read it yet. Read it, and if you still have questions afterwards, ask.
As for a place that no longer exists, yes, of course you can delete such a listing and should, but make sure to write "closed" - or something similar - in your editing summary that makes it clear why you deleted or overwrote a listing. Unexplained deletions are typically reverted. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:45, 27 June 2012 (EDT)

Hallmark Greetings

It's been about three weeks since I've gone to Special:RecentChanges and seen "Ikan Kekek" in the listings. With any luck you've been able to fulfill your plans of returning to Indonesia or are otherwise engaged in fun activities, and hopefully we'll see you again soon around these parts, or at the new site (if/when that happens). -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 23:13, 24 July 2012 (EDT)

Sure. The trip to Indonesia didn't happen this summer, but I'm just back from almost a month total in California and Hawaii, a truly marvelous trip! Thanks for thinking of me, and best wishes to you! Aloha, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:31, 28 July 2012 (EDT)
Welcome home, and good to hear you had a nice trip away--(WT-en) felix 19:23, 29 July 2012 (EDT)

Block ID #10618

Hi Ikan,

One of my IPs was blocked for editing due to "Spambot" reason (no idea why, but I am certainly not a Spambot =)). Could you do the unblocking for me? The Block ID is #10618.

Best regards, --(WT-en) Edsonaoki 03:27, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

Hi. I've just read up on this. Apparently, you and Jnich99 were both using the same IP also used by a spambot, Hdfs9f2qb, whom I blocked. And believe me, you'd consider what it posted to be spam; just have a look: [10]. I just reblocked that user, but unchecked "Automatically block the last IP address used by this user, and any subsequent IP addresses they try to edit from," which seemed to be causing problems for you, Jnich99, and possibly other good-faith users. Sorry for the unpleasant experience.
All the best,
(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:07, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
Thanks for the explanation. No great harm done. The various recent software upgrades certainly don't seem to have halted the march of the spambots. (WT-en) Jnich99 05:28, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
What upgrades? :-) I'm no techie, but I do know on an empirical basis that the spamming has gotten worse and more difficult to fight. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:33, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

Hello Ikan Kekek and welcome to Wikivoyage!

You sly old fox! You seem to be conspiring with sundry disreputable Janitors to achieve multiple "OrgasmsWelcomes" (huge grin):

Wikivoyage is a project with the aim to create a free, up-to-date, and reliable world-wide travel guide, and it is based on an association with the same name: Wikivoyage e.V.

To get a clearer idea about Wikivoyage and how it works, have a look at the community policies and the FAQ section. It may also be useful to read the Copyleft page where you can find more information about our license. The part of Wikivoyage called Wikivoyage General helps Wikivoyagers to organize and discuss language independent topics. If you want to find more information related to potential language versions, have a look at the language version discussions page. "How to start a new language version" will help you plunge forward.

If you understand their languages, it might be interesting to have a look at the German or the Italian language versions of Wikivoyage, as those are the long established language versions and there you will have an opportunity to discover what the project and its articles look like. The launch of the English Language version is imminent. The images that are used within our articles are at Wikivoyage Shared.

Our policies, guidelines and Manual of style may be a bit different to other Wiki's you've worked on.

If you need more information or you have questions that have not been answered in the help pages, please do not hesitate to write a post in the Travellers' Pub or to ask me directly.

--W. Franke-mailtalk 02:35, 24 September 2012 (CEST)

cross confirmation

Hi Ikan, hope you are doing fine. You have not been around for some time, so this might be interesting Also we try to get the new policies here implemented, so any helpful hand is appreciated. Have a great weekend, Jc8136 (talk) 12:46, 5 October 2012 (CEST)

Hi, Jc. I'm not a techie, so I couldn't help with the implementation of this kind of policy. Are there any other new discussions I should be aware of? Thanks, and I hope you also have a great weekend. (WV-en) Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:53, 5 October 2012 (CEST)
Ikan, there is an misunderstanding. The policy is already implemented and made. If you would like to merge your accounts from WT and WV here, then you solely need to add your account name on the bottom of the list [11]. It's great because it imports your old WT history if you want, too. Regards, Jc8136 (talk) 13:06, 5 October 2012 (CEST)
I accidentally deleted my WT history before I left WT, so that wouldn't help. Oh well. :-) (WV-en) Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:07, 5 October 2012 (CEST)
I saw that my undeleted WT history was imported here, so I did apply to merge my accounts. Thanks again, Jc. (WV-en) Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:26, 14 October 2012 (CEST)

them external links

Thanks for the welcome back, Ikan! And thanks for pointing out the external links page - with all the listings now doing frontlinking, I thought that was going to be the new standard here. Then I found this. Well, back to fixing my stuff up! PerryPlanet (talk) 18:21, 12 October 2012 (CEST)

Account merge

Hi Ikan - I've merged your (new) Wikivoyage account with your old account, so this account should include all content contributions you've ever made. I've also moved your user page and talk page. You were somewhat of a test case, so please report any problems. Provided everything worked as expected then the same process will probably be used with other user accounts. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:52, 13 November 2012 (UTC)Reply


at my page --Cyrfaw (Talk) 07:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Thank you :)

Thank you for your warm welcome Ikan Kekek :) I see Wikivoyage has recently been added to the Wikimedia Foundation and now is itself a Wikimedia project. I am very happy to be a part of such place. I originally started on Wikipedia and have continued to spread out on other wiki's like Wikisource, Wikibooks, etc. and now Wikivoyage! This looks like a very interesting project related to travel and tourism which has one of the most reliable world-wide travel guides that can be found on the web. I look forward to be a dedicated long term member and a positive contributor to Wikivoyage. Best Regards! TheGeneralUser (talk) 20:01, 21 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Wonderful. I look forward to working with you and reading your contributions in the future. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Plain words

May I compliment you on your much clearer wording?

I think many Asian cultures employ these indirect circumlocutions because they think it is more likely to preserve harmony.

(Every time I look at Abbrev. it grates that we firstly recommend something like "These abbreviations should be uniform and consistent and generally should not include full stops or periods" in the lead or nutshell and then go on to say "Some country abbreviations include periods while others do not: "United States of America" should be abbreviated as U.S. with periods, not U.S.A., USA, or US" when the latter abbreviation is used by some (but certainly not all) US departments and agencies...).

Happy New Year! -- Alice 19:44, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the positive feedback. We argue about more or less small or moderately important points in the "Talk" pages here, but it pays for us to remember that we're all really trying to do the same thing, which is to make this site better for readers. Have a great 2013, and enjoy the warm weather you have at this time - and every other time of year - in Singapore. It's cold here in New York! :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 30 December 2012 (UTC)Reply
Sometimes it is very difficult not being able to see faces and hear tones of voice. I need to try very hard to be tolerant of Peter's boorishness - I'm sure I'd probably find him very attractive if I met him face to face - but it really is very tough trying to ignore the continual sniping about me being a puppet of a German friend of mine that lives in Glasgow. Especially when both Frank and I have already established our bona fides to Fred Bauder and Jimmy Wales on Wikipedia all those years ago and I personally have offered to appear in person with my passports and driving licences to a named admin that promises to keep my personal details confidential - plus anyone with Check user rights can see that I don't usually edit from the continent of Europe. By the way, my work takes me all over the Pacific Rim (but often to and from Oz and NZ) and I'm down under right now and won't be back to spend much time in Singapore until March. -- Alice 00:30, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Happy New Year from Cyfraw

Hi there and happy new year! Thanks for your efforts at WikiVoyage. Regards --cyrfaw (talk) 09:25, 31 December 2012 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, Cyfraw. Same to you! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:48, 31 December 2012 (UTC)Reply


You're welcome! Tony (talk) 06:02, 12 January 2013 (UTC)Reply


Hi, are you still here? I clarified my Main Page edit request at Talk:Main_Page#Mobile_version. :-) Rogerhc (talk) 05:52, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, but I'm having trouble seeing things clearly in that dense thicket of HTML on the main page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Okay, answered here. Rogerhc (talk) 06:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for helping. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:03, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Indeed, no comma

[12] Travelpleb (talk) 09:59, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. Things sure have changed since I was in school. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Aggressive flirting

Ok, now that you explained, it's clearer to me. On the other side, we should have to be aware that the vast majority of en.wikivoyage readers are not English natives; and, by any means, "aggressive" in such a transcultural context is semantically conveying the idea of snatching a woman's arm in the street. Which is naturally false, especially when you consider the incidence of rapes compared to apparently calmer cities like Florence (which, between you and me, has the highest rapes' incidence in Italy, followed by Milan...)...Neapolitans consider getting along with a woman like a proof of their courting capabilities, so being "aggressive" in such a trans-cultural meaning would be cause of shame for them. So, having understood your meaning, I would rather use "persistent" or "insisted". Ah, probably you understood I AM a Neapolitan and live in town, so I can speak about courting with some insider view... :-) --Ferdinando Scala (talk) 10:53, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Your point is well taken. Can we agree on "somewhat persistent flirting"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:01, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Sorry if I didn't answer earlier, I was working and then flying back home. Your new version is ok, thank you for your kind understanding. Btw, I often travel to Turkey for business, and first time I read your nickname I thought you were a Turkish...thenafter I read the history of your life, quite fascinating. I'm also a global traveller, so it will be great to share views with you in the future. And, in case you come to Naples, I will be happy to show you some special places. :-) --Ferdinando Scala (talk) 21:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
I'll let you know. I loved visiting Naples. :-) Distintamente, Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:51, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Johor Bahru

Hi! I have seen that you worked a bit on the Malaysia article. We tried to get Johor into a better shape for OtBP but it contains to much info. Felix and i tried to work it but another helping hand would be great, if you have some spare time. Regards, jan (talk) 08:25, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Jan. I've never been to Johor Bahru, but I'll have a look when I have a chance. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:26, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Not a Bot.

I am receiving multiple email about some minor edits I made asking me to post a reply to confirm that I am not a this the correct place to do so?

You already made that clear. I was asking you to respond in your user talk page. Did you read the messages I left for you there, and do you understand them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:00, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Vikram chuahan

Hi there, I change the deletion template from {{vfd}} to {{speedy}} because it is lacking information and it looks like a non-sense article. If you don't belive me you can undo my edit. Thanks! --cyrfaw (talk) 11:10, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

not done - Never mind - The page is already deleted since it has lack of information. Thanks! --cyrfaw (talk) 05:09, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Yes, I noticed. And that's certainly fine with me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:12, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Good, thanks! --cyrfaw (talk) 05:15, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hudson valley

You're welcome! Daniel Case (talk) 05:18, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I restored Il Cena'colo to the restaurant section minus the Zagat ref (didn't know about that rule, thanks). It's not the only one of those restaurants west of the river. Daniel Case (talk) 02:28, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Why does it belong in Hudson Valley, rather than Newburgh? The standard practice is to list restaurants in city guides, whenever possible, and to list them in regional guides only when there is no other place to list them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
Oh, OK. The article had a very broad "Eat" section; since it just said "Since CIA is in the region there are a lot of good restaurants", I decided to list some because you can't just pick any one at random, even if the chef did go there, and assume it'll be great. I suppose that section, in regional pages, is just for particular regional food treats? (yes it is, I see now). I suppose in this case snickerdoodles would be about the only thing I can think of. Daniel Case (talk) 18:15, 18 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
It's fine to mention that the CIA is in the region, and it could be OK to mention a few other places by name, but readers should be directed to guides like Newburgh for full listings of restaurants that are in particular towns. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:14, 18 May 2013 (UTC)Reply


I blanked it because

Don't tout. Wikivoyage is a site for travelers, not for marketing, and promotional listings will be removed. This guideline identifies ways for businesses to contribute constructively. In particular, please do not ever add more than one listing for a business. —The preceding comment was added by User:Manoli (talkcontribs)

I just did a lot of detouting. Look now. Deleting the entire sleep section is overly extreme, in my view. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:49, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Ikan If everybody will leave advertisings for some villas or apartments, the sleep section will be filled with advertising spam. The whole sleep section is a copy and paste product. The same you will find here:

and under other URL's

For my opinion seems like you want to protect somebodys intrests in zakynthian tourism.

Please lets stop spamming. Have a look for Exemple to wikivoyage "Mallorca" - there is no adveretising spam in the sleep section. If they start there the same it will filled up with thousands of entrys. —The preceding comment was added by User:Manoli (talkcontribs)

Thanks. The link to the Zakynthos Sleep site does persuade me that you have a good argument for deleting all the "Sleep" entries in the Zakynthos article, but the mere fact that entries are listed in multiple places is no proof that they are not worthy of being listed (although, obviously, copyright violation is an issue). So in order to reach a consensus, which consists of more than two people having a discussion, I will copy and paste this discussion to Talk:Zakynthos. But please disabuse yourself of the weird notion that I support spamming. I have never been to Zakynthos; know no-one who owns any property, operates any business, or has any interest whatsoever in any business in Zakynthos; do not own or have any financial interest in any real property whatsoever; and am a volunteer admin on Wikivoyage. Meanwhile, I have no idea who you are. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Rock, Cornwall

Hi Ikan, could you please explain why you have single handedly decided to take the rash decision to delete a new page that I was in the process of setting up on Rock, Cornwall? I had set up the page and entered some introductory text and had gone away to get some additional information to start filling in other sections only to return to find that some idiot had deleted the page. I can't see that the page infringed any of the policies or guidelines and you have clearly not properly followed any deletion procedure. You give a reason for deletion that there was little useful content on the page and there had only been one contributor. Hardly surprising when I had only just created the page a few minutes before? Perhaps a more productive use of your time might be to actually contribute something positive to Wikivoyage rather than preventing others from doing so. Tallguyuk (talk) 13:50, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

My apologies. If someone else has not restored the page, I will do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
It looks like someone else restored it in the interim. Apologies again; I goofed on this. Thanks for contributing, and I will try not to make this kind of mistake again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:05, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
No problem, I can see how it happens. Tallguyuk (talk) 20:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for understanding. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

IP blocking

For the record, 3 months is a little high for IP blocks since some users have dynamic IPs. If it's a static IP (the vandal keeps using the same IP and keeps getting the same blocks) it's probably okay though. It depends on how the ISP is set up. No worries though, it's always difficult dealing with anonymous editors :) --Rschen7754 20:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I wouldn't know how to recognize a static IP from a dynamic IP. Would you recommend a 1-month block in cases of spambots or severe vandalism? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
If they come back under a slightly different IP, it's definitely dynamic. In extreme cases, you can do a rangeblock (a block of a range of IPs), but if the range is large, you may need to consult a steward (since you have no local CUs) to make sure that you're not blocking innocent users as collateral damage.
However, if the same IP returns after you blocked it, it's definitely static. A 1 month block for a spambot seems fine, unless you can tell that it's an w:en:Open proxy, in which case you can block for a year or two. (If you look at the IP's contributions page on the English Wikipedia, there's some additional tools, and may have some additional info. Unfortunately, I don't know too much more about finding those beyond that). IP blocking is definitely a complicated art :) --Rschen7754 20:30, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Protecting politically charged pages

Hey, I wanted to respond to your comments on India and Pakistan. I don't think the problem as of now is very serious—I've seen edits every 2-3 minutes over the course of hours before that did justify protects, but I don't think it's too bad right now. (And I think I've watchlisted all pages related to all the world's territorial disputes by now.) If you're feeling burnt out at all dealing with the nationalist edit warriors, I'd recommend just working on something more enjoyable for a spell. For me that's usually mapmaking or more recently writing about Fitzgerald. The India and Pakistan articles are pretty well watched by a number of people. Your prolific patrolling work is amazingly helpful, though, so I hope I'm not discouraging you from it! --Peter Talk 09:01, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the good thoughts and helpful perspective, Peter. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

India/Pakistan, moved from my user page

Dear, I know that this is travel site then also you have to show unclaimed map hatched understand. and if not then see you will find kashmir region hatched. (Unsigned, posted by User:Jay8580)

The solution is that the cross-hatching should be deleted from the Pakistan map. I'm not sure how to do that, but you are right to point out an inconsistency. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:23, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks Dear finally you understand what i wanted to say.

Please sign your posts by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) before you press enter on talk pages. But anyway, I'm sure we will fix the Pakistan map when someone checks Talk:Pakistan who knows how to do that. Please be patient. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:41, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

~Thanks Because i read this matter in state level newspaper.

This was covered in a newspaper in your state? That's surprising, and could help to explain the vehement reaction. And the moral of the story is, never ascribe to bias what is much more likely to be due to oversight. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

~Yes. It is gujarat samachar news paper leading news paper in gujarat state. go to this link Jay8580(talk)

Well, I can't read Gujarati. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. I certainly was not aware of the inconsistency in the maps until now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:02, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

~ you can use google translate

True. Do you suppose they'll do a follow-up article when we correct the problem? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:12, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Your comment

I responded to the comment you left on Talk:Buffalo and I wanted to make sure you were made aware of it so that you could give your opinion.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Your advice

Re: - I have seen this addition and it looks like a straight copy and paste from wp en - I would suspect such an addition is not really a valid way to provide information for a wikivoyage phrasebook here on wikivoyage in comparison to say - I'd be interested to know how you would approach the problem... (on wp en the tendency for sundanese cultural info has a real problem with WP:UNDUE as if it is the centre of the known universe - something like some regions of malaysia as well...) thanks for any adevice or comments on the issue. sats (talk) 09:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, sats. Yes, at a glance, it is clearly a cut-and-paste job, and therefore, needs to be blanked except for perhaps the barest of an introduction. I'll take care of it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:37, 23 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
A further remark: As a matter of policy, wholesale copy-paste jobs from Wikipedia are not allowed on this site, especially when they aren't even credited and include extraneous encyclopedic content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)Reply


Thanks for this. I understand the reasoning; but there's a problem. As it happens, many more visitors come to Levoca for the day than stay overnight. If these restaurants are listed only under hotels we actually end with 'under-touting' - not making people aware that these resturants exist and effectively giving preference to the restaurants which don't have sleeping accommodation attached. This also seems unfair. In the meantime anyway I will reedit the articel to place the restaurant listings in the sleepsection, with perhpas a note after 'Eat' on the lines 'many hotels also have good restaurants open for day visitors,(see below)'. Best, --Smerus (talk) 21:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

That sounds like a good solution. Another possible solution is, if the restaurants are more notable or much more patronized than the hotels, perhaps it might be best to list them in "Eat," rather than "Sleep," with a note in their "Eat" listing that you can also stay at the hotel and a description of the hotel included. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)Reply


just in case you didnt notice it - (User creation log); 17:41 . . User account AliCeja80 (talk | contribs) was created by AnnabelleDeitz85 (talk | contribs) ‎- cheers sats (talk) 10:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I didn't notice. Thanks, sats. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:26, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Reply


Thanks for the welcome. I hope I don't screw things up...much. ;) ReveurGAM (talk) 10:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Don't worry about that. We all screw up, and when we do, others are there to edit the screw-ups. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

"Lombok chillies"

I noticed your deletion of this photo item in Indonesia's food section, which I had considered doing last night (well, actually, after midnight) while editing the section, and I have a question about this food item. I have not heard of cabe lombok and, to my knowledge (and my Javanese wife's), lombok is just another word for chili pepper. Can you set me straight on this? Perhaps, if you can tell me what the Indonesian name is, I might have a photo I could upload. Thanks!ReveurGAM (talk) 05:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi. I really don't know because I really speak Bahasa Melayu, not Bahasa Indonesia. Lombok is only an island to me. Cabe evidently is the Indonesian equivalent of cabai, one Malay word for chili (lada and cili are more common), and coincidentally, that's how the word would be pronounced in Kelantan, the state just to the north of Terengganu, where I used to live (Bahasa Terengganu would pronounce the word "cabaaa"). Anyway, a Google image search for "cabe lombok" turns up a few photos of chilis, but I'm not sure what that proves. [13] Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:36, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
So, I guess we're both confused then. :) FYI, "cabai" is infrequently used here as an alt. spelling. "Lombok" is only uncommonly used to refer to chilis, being subject to confusion amongst the uninitiated because of the island. "Lada" and "merica" are used to refer to black/white pepper, not chilis, here. The only thing I know about Malaysian is that it's different enough that when I watch Upin Ipin or Boboi Boy, I get confused without subtitles. :)
I did a quick Google image search of "cabe lombok" and the hits on the first page (ignoring the island hits) showed the two words to be synonymous (e.g.: "cabe a.k.a. lombok"), not the name of a species of chili. The chili shown on that page appears to be the common but pricy mild "cabe merah besar", except for an image of "paprika" (bell pepper). That chili (CMB) and "cabe keriting" would be worthy additions given how frequently they are used (less so than rawit because of the higher price and inferior spiciness). Any thoughts?ReveurGAM (talk) 05:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Oh, by all means insert any photos you feel would help prospective or current visitors understand Indonesian cuisine!
By the way, in Malay, lada hitam does mean "black pepper," but "lada hidup" means fresh hot pepper and "lada kering" means dried hot pepper. When I visited Indonesia a couple of times in 1976 (yeah, that's how long it's been!), I think I understood about 75% of what people said to me, and they understood something more like 90% of my Malay. Using words like "bilik" instead of "kamar," they told us, was "Bahasa Dusun" - dusun being a word that in Malay was a bit fancy and synonymous with kampung. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
I just noticed this discussion and thought I might add a couple of comments, and a digressive factiod for good measure. I my own experience I would normally expect to see a chili described as 'cabe' (alt) cabai, (alt) cabai merah, (alt) lombok (bahasa Jawa). That is certainly what I am familiar with conversationally. It must also be understood that the range and variety in chili plants and their 'fruits' is quite considerable.
Cabe is a general descriptive word, to which additional descriptors may be appended, hot, green, red, small, dry, fresh, sweet, long, big, small, and additionally many have common and specific names, many of which vary between regions.
Now for the slightly distracting, but still contextual factoid. The name of the island of Lombok is often misattributed to the chili (Id:cabe alt. lombok). Tourism promotions often use an image of a chili when marketing the island as a destination. Travel writers, often with some air of authority (and presumably just copying each others work), refer to the name of the island of Lombok in eastern Indonesia (NTB) as being "derived" or "meaning" Chili, from the Indonesian word (lombok), as is sometimes used to describe a chili.
It is true that the Sasak people of Lombok are quite liberal in the use of the chili in their diet, indeed some may appraise they are excessive in their embracing of the chili in various condiments, sambal, salads and in cooked food.
However, the name of the island is actually derived from the Sasak word lomboq, which is equivalent to lerus or (En) straight, straight ahead (alt:in a direct course). The Sasak (orang Lombok) describe a chili (cabe or lombok) thus; sebie, (alt) sebiya, (alt) sebiye, (alt) sebiye. The first may be the more popular spelling. It must be understood that Bahasa Sasak has strong 'oral' traditions, the language in written form gets a bit vague at times, and there is considerable regional dialectic variation, both in word use, and in pronunciation.-- Felix (talk) 18:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Looking over some of the recent edits on the Indonesia article I feel a bit concerned regarding some of the new content and edits, so I am going to wander over to the articles Talk page and leave a few comments. -- Felix (talk) 18:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the interesting discourse on chilis and language, and for whatever edits you will do in the Indonesia article. You always do great edits! Also, if you're an admin now, congrats, and if you aren't yet, you will be shortly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Holy chilis, Batman! Actually, dusun is used here, too, but not nearly as commonly as kampung and desa. I've not come across bilik but it seems oddly familiar. Or perhaps I'm just thinking of "bilk". ;) hehe
Felix, how many languages do you know? I don't even remember how to say "thank you" in Sasakian. :( You suggested above that cabe merah is the same as cabe, however that prompts the question: "What then is the meaning of merah if not "red", because chilis come in red, orang, yellow, green, purple and black?" -- —The preceding comment was added by username (talkcontribs)
It most certainly only applies when they are red, but they don't need to be hot and red, it only pertains to the colour alone as far as I am aware. Generally I am more concerned about the fluctuating price of the things :) -- Felix (talk) 18:34, 3 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

wikivoyage user page

it would seem that user pages - if a user chooses to offer an email address for off wikivoyage conversation - that long term users have simply provided their email address as part of the text on the page. I understand that some would never want such a connection, while others would want to do so - my stance is that if someone really wants to contact - they go to my wp en page and send an email via the link there under 'user' - I wouldnt want to bother the current range of considerations in wikivoyage with such a facility in the drop-down, I think there are far more important things to be considered policy wise... sats (talk) 09:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I just about never provided my email address except accidentally, and then I discover that because a user emails me about something that should be discussed on user talk or the talk page for an article. I did send you an email through one of those forms on Commons, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
odd, as I do not seem to have received anything - the wp en drop down seems to be the best way to go sats (talk) 10:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

spammer for some reason i cannot find how to revert 2 edits rather than the one. unsigned 10:12, 31 January 2013 SatuSuro oops sats (talk) 14:47, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Click history, select the last good version, click 'edit', click 'save'. K7L (talk) 10:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Or what I usually do: You go into the history and then compare the current version to the last clean version and click "undo." Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
thank you both - I was in a hurry to get off the computer to get to an appointment but didnt want to leave it unattended - thanks sats (talk) 14:47, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Real and non-promotional?

OK I'm not new to wikis but new here and a bit confused about Wikivoyage policy so perhaps you could help me out. Just so me and you are on the same page, you just deleted a link I added to Bridlington. I have no link to the fish and chip shop in question and no desire to promote it. What I've read says this wiki likes in article links to pages(rather than citations) and also likes direct info rather than third party sources. So when I come across a national award winning chippy in Brid I think it'd be good to have it in the article. I can guess a few things I might have done wrong - but the trouble is they're just guesses. So can you explain to me more fully what you have problems with so I can try to not do it again, if indeed I have broken WV policy? And perhaps in future you could maybe leave me a message on my talk page if you have a problem with my editing as a message in a edit history box probably comes across harsher than you meant it... and in any case leaves me little wiser as to what actually needs changing. --Dakinijones (talk) 04:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi. I welcome you here and appreciate the editing you're doing, and I'm sorry the edit summary sounded harsh. A real entry looks like this, as shown in Wikivoyage:Restaurant listings:
*'''Name of Restaurant''', Address (''extra directions if necessary''), phone number (''email, fax, other contact if possible''), []. Days and times open. One to three sentences about the food, service, atmosphere, view, specialties, music, what have you. $lowprice-highprice (''extra price info'').
There needs to be a physical address in the guide, so the reader knows where the fish and chips place is. And it's great if the fish and chips place won an award, but the name of the organization or survey that gave the award needs to be mentioned in the description within the entry. Just a link plus a "best in UK" seems promotional, but in context, the link and a mention of the award would be fine. For the other edit I made, please have a look at the external links policy. One of the goals of Wikivoyage is to serve travelers on the go who don't have access to the internet, for whatever reason. So necessary information - name of pub, address, how to get there if it isn't obvious, phone number, hours if you know them, some kind of description - needs to be in the guide on Wikivoyage, not in a link somewhere else. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for explaining... That's really made it a lot clearer and will definitely help my editing in the future. --Dakinijones (talk) 05:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
Great! Thanks again for your edits, and please carry on! Cheers, Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:09, 1 February 2013 (UTC)Reply


Hi Ikan, that is a notable improvement here. That was one of the several issues that bothered me on a first read. I think it could be developed a bit further though. In my own experience there are no "pockets of animism". There are certainly areas where animism is more overt, the adherents of Waktu Telu in North Lombok, even more so the (not quite diminished) Boda of North Lombok are stand outs. There is also a distinct group of people midway between Jakarta and Anyar in West Jawa. However my point here is that though they, and other similar groups may be overtly symbolic of Animist practice it has a far more common theme in Indonesia. I cannot recall ever meeting an Indonesian that is not bearing at least latent Animism. Scratch the skin of any Indonesian and a Animist is revealed. I have formed the distinct impression that it is not only part of the 'human condition' for Indonesians, it is possibly somehow imbedded in their DNA. When considered with some pause this is not surprising. Animism is part of the human condition, indeed some may go as far as to proclaim that it is the human condition. The progressions of first Hinduism, then other beliefs such as Buddhism, Christianity and Islam have really only served to repress Animism in Indonesia, it is alive and well behind every tree, hiding under every bed, in all the shadows and borne upon every gust of wind and in every rustle of a palm frond. If any thing goes wrong it is quickly revealed who in the room is an animist, I would be surprised to see one in their number who will express it either overtly or by deference. I don't think we are portraying that in the article yet. Maybe we don't need to. However I though I might share that with you as I am aware of your own roots in the region. -- cheers Felix (talk) 13:48, 1 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I do relate to this. But thinking about my greater experience in Malaysia, while I think a lot of the orthodox Muslims actually would fear hantu, they don't make animism part of their religious or customary (adat) practice. So maybe it would be more accurate to say that there are some Indonesians who adhere only to traditional Indonesian animistic religions (pockets of them, if we want to maintain that phrasing), whereas most other Indonesians are in a formal sense adherents of Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, or Buddhism, though most of the inhabitants of the country - of whatever formal religious identity - also maintain animist beliefs. In any case, don't hesitate to make any edits you believe would improve the accuracy or tone of the section on folk religion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
I, too, like your improvement that Felix linked to above, and I agree that it should be developed further. I've already made my opinion clear (I hope) about what you wrote about religion in the talk page. I'm not sure how I feel about "pockets" because I've met people who deny being animists (despite utilizing animistic beliefs, sometimes), others who admit believing in it while it isn't their religion (with the same caveat), and I've met some who claim they are animists. Most interestingly, the syncretization (sic?) of Christianity and Kejawan is not denied quite as often as it is with Muslims.
I will, however, have to completely disagree that it is "in their DNA." I won't expound on it, but I find it oddly offensive.
The overlay of newer religions on older ones can be observed all over the world, or so I've heard. Look at Christianity's holidays: most of them are placed over pagan holidays (eg: Easter, Halloween, Christmas), even to the point that Christmas is on the wrong date. I doubt this has anything to do with DNA but rather indicative of how difficult it is to rid oneself completely of one's value system, even when it has been discarded in favor of another.
I appreciate your experience in Malaysia, IK, but what is true there isn't true here. Animism is, indeed, alive and well - even if it's not admitted to. When my in-laws insisted on hanging my daughter's "twin" from the rafters, they admitted it wasn't an Islamic tradition and, when pressed, admitted it was animistic. My son's "twin" was buried. My in-laws, by the way, are tolerant but fairly religious (but dad's dead :( ) Still not sure about "pockets", but I like the way you worded everything else above. FYI, you forgot Confucianism, the 6th religion. ReveurGAM (talk) 17:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

2012 and 2013

These articles were copied directly from Wikipedia, if you were wondering. I might go ahead and nom nom nom them for deletion, unless if you think they can be speedied. JamesA >talk 06:32, 2 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

I already deleted 2012, having checked Wikipedia myself. I will delete 2013. No reason to have a Vfd discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:33, 2 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

real life and indonesian folklore

have had a few days attending to real life, and will try to read all the comings and goings with the Indonesian article - once I have read all the talk material, and changes in articles, will decide whether I am interested in getting involved. Having both my wife and I do Pd level anthropology field work in Java, I find quite a lot that I have read so far quite to be debatable, but whether, in the end it is worth taking on the opinions or even commenting here on wikivoyage is debatable. I might in the end just remain silent, and edit the atrociously under-written Tasmanian articles the talk pages are already far too full, and honestly 'Indonesian superstitions' aka folklore, was in my head for over 15 years, to have to deal with others experiences or ideas might not necessarily be of any benefit to a wikivoyage article or two in the end... it might just muddy the waters... sats (talk) 15:05, 2 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, sats. I'd be grateful if you'd edit anything that's either inaccurate, misleading, or has a problematic tone. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:02, 2 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
sheesh - the Indonesian stuff feels like too much to handle at the moment, I think Ill go back under my rock and have a slightly longer sleep. One thing to tag the newcomers, another to enter into conversation about the nuances of life in the tropics ... sats (talk) 01:07, 3 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
Selamat tidur. All in good time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
and when I do dip in the recent edits and see like : -(diff | hist) . . Talk:London/City of London‎; 01:09 . . (+243)‎ . . ‎Visit the City (talk | contribs)‎ (→‎Hello - here to help: ) - and remember seeing you do blocks on spammers - I suppose I need to get into a conversation about doing the patrol, seeing the really obvious usernames and the subject, and without even looking at what they have (or not) written, I am interested to see your comment about how much leeway such edits are or not allowed in the area of spam and setting themselves up as 'the centre of the universe' as at - havent welcomed, as even if I was to read touting into the edits, interested in having any suggestions as to where the lines of demarcation are seeing you regularly knock em off... sats (talk) 09:01, 7 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
This is by no means the worst touting I've seen, but current policy is shown here SEO#Marketers_and_SEOs:
"Because there is an inherent conflict of interest when someone is being paid for their edits, if you are working for a hotel chain, a marketing agency, or a similar organization then you may not add multiple listings for that business to Wikivoyage articles. Wikivoyage is not a yellow pages, so adding every individual location for a hotel brand or restaurant chain is not an appropriate use of this site. If a hotel is truly exceptional, or if a city has a very limited number of lodging options available, you may propose a listing to be added on the article's talk page, but do not add the listing yourself. Marketers that add multiple business listings should expect to see their contributions reverted, and in the worst case repeated violations of this policy may lead to blocking of the contributor's account and possibly blacklisting of the business in question.
Marketers and paid editors may make factual corrections to existing hotel listings, but these changes should be strictly limited to non-subjective information such as URLs or phone numbers. As explained above, do not remove negative information from a listing without first discussing the change; if a listing states that a hotel has a dated interior but the property has undergone recent renovation, point out this fact on the article's talk page and let someone else update the listing."
I think some other admins would immediately revert the entire edit and tell the commercial user to stop touting. However, no listings were actually added. So what I would do is detout the listings to make them purely informational and merge them into one listing (presumably in "Sleep") that covers both the hotel and the restaurant, and send the commercial user a message pointing them to don't tout and welcome, business owners. Would you like to take care of this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:39, 7 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
almost in a car pile up about an hour ago, the foxtel signal has gone down, and I have a meeting to go to, I'll pass... sats (talk) 10:44, 7 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
Yikes! Glad you're OK. Be careful out there! Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:08, 7 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

That sounds quite unsettling sats, maybe you shouldn't have been watching foxtel in the car anyway. I do hope you are OK and that the TV is not broken. I had a look at that article and made a few adjustments. Have a look over it and take care of anything else you notice. -- Felix (talk) 20:39, 7 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

As an admin

Wondering if you can take care of these [14]? Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

I don't know how to do this and I'm not sure how much longer I'll be awake, so I'll just leave the task for someone else. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
That would've also been the reason why the main page wasn't displaying properly for you :-) JamesA >talk 12:50, 3 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Moszna Castle

Hello. I am relatively new to WIKIVOYAGE and am not positive if I can reply to your emails. I have been attempting to make/create the Moszna Castle page. I do not mind that the page has been re-directed, however, I made an error on the original entry and now the page is in the wrong place. My original error involves the "Lublin Voivodeship". This castle is not located in the Lublin Voivodeship. It is located in the Opole Voivodeship. Can you please redirect it to an "Opole" or "Silesia" page? Once again, I do not know how to reply to your messages. If you could be so kind as inform me that the changes have taken place I would appreciate it. I want to make sure it is in the correct spot. Thanks, Norris4949.

Hi. I will take care of this. I hope it isn't confusing to you that I moved your post to the bottom of my user talk page for ease in reading. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:55, 10 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Talk Back Targetkristy

Hey Ikan Kekek, i replied to you on my Talk page - (talk!

White space

Is it a hangover from wiki travel or some other part of the archaeology of this venture - but a large number of outline articles seem to have headings and parts of things with vast amount of white space (ie spaces between text and headings), I was sure when I just a starter at old wp en that I was chastised for leaving any white space around... I was told in no uncertain terms that such a practice was a waste of space as the headings didnt need space above or below and they were formatted to make the right adjustments. It seems that the vast spaces here on wv are testament to something that is not explained anywhere... sats (talk) 10:18, 14 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, sats. I really don't know if there's any policy on this. We should have a discussion about it and come to an agreement. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:14, 14 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
hmmm - I know some of the discussions here are so extraodrinarily specific on some issues, I am not sure this is going to be an issue with time well spent, oh well here goes... sats (talk) 23:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

OK I am wrong - once again - Wikivoyage:Section headers has established that the spaces are required (the reasoning to me is bollocks, but hey), however the talk page suggests that inadequate discussion has occurred on the subject... so I have taken the subject to the pub. sats (talk) 00:19, 15 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Good. I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:57, 15 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
It was discussed - but hey like some things here - one support, one oppose - so it went nowhere... also a reply to my query making fun of worrying about a byte seems to be what i expected. Less then 50,000 articles it might seem ok - when the project gets to over 100,000 maybe they might think again about wasted space sats (talk) 08:54, 15 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
That's a good point. I hope you make it in the thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 15 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
There's the rub - the amount of dead threads around the place make one wonder... Even something as simple as my admin nom sits in limbo like a sore thumb (either direction... wait or archive or what) some parts of this project they leave the lights on and the door open... :| sats (talk) 09:08, 15 February 2013 (UTC)Reply


Hello Ikan Kekek. You have a new message at Curtaintoad's talk page. Thanks, Curtaintoad (curtain or toad) 09:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

History sections

The Indonesian one bothers me a lot - but real life returned my youngest from overseas with suspect DVT early this am (long waits in emergency departments etc etc), along with everything else, my capacity to be coherent in my critiquing having long history sections will have to wait. Thank you for suggesting about taking it higher. sats (talk) 02:35, 21 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sorry to hear about your son's travails. My best wishes to both of you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:58, 21 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
Nah he's sleeping it all off at the moment - its all good - as they say. I am more concerned that the history discussion that you and reveur are having is a good productive reduction - and I dont want to thwart that process - it is clear you both sound off against each other on the issues - and it looks good with the improvements.

As I say elsewhere, I am simply against putting extensive history into wikivoyage - it smells of (ie has a nafas of) something that somehow doesnt feel right to me - it is one thing to have issues with renditions of what Suharto did or didnt do - and the effects that have carried down to affect the world that traveller is moving in - but the nafas is of moving into non-goal, I know that if I was to an 'understand' section for my research site/(which is a tourist destination, must write it up some day), then I would really get carried away with aspects of history, anthropology, semiotics, and a little bit of the 'londho's' reflection of what a ziarah site might be like in the bantul regency.... I certainly would 'not want to provide anything' about the complex enclave issues that existed between Yk and Sk (assume you know the abbreviations) and how it affected villages and wider community issues in the eastern bantul area for over 50 years before sukarno era... the detail is probably the devil in all this... If there is anything that has got to me almost 20 years after my fieldwork, is that its what you leave out is as important as what you put in. Like my wifes fieldwork that echoes your mothers... there are details in the world of birth in this whole archipelago that might fit into some books, but others it doesnt go in it all. Hope that explains where I am coming from just in case you wondered.  :) sats (talk) 09:41, 21 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

I sort of get it but it's late and I've had a few shots of whiskey, so I'm not sure. :-) I don't actually recognize the abbreviations Yk and Sk. I get your point about non-goals, but a bit of knowledge may be good (though I do get the point about a little knowledge being dangerous). Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
sheesh it is sooooo hot here (40 degrees C) - a drop of anything alcoholic would be close to fatal for me - Imogiri - Yogyakarta (Yk) and Surakarta (Sk) enclaves - the subject is like a borgesian labyrinth of madening intricacy that even local yogyakarta based academic historians were averse to try to unfold/unpack and explain... sats (talk) 09:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
It's cold here. Yes, I do know some about the rivalry between the two great cities of Central Javanese culture. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
This was something much more complex than that - I must do something somewhere to explain the issue, it was bizarre and really obscure... somewhere, some day... sats (talk) 10:07, 21 February 2013 (UTC)Reply


Hello Ikan Kekek. You have a new message at Curtaintoad's talk page. Thanks, Curtaintoad (curtain or toad) 09:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Please be my friend ! ('~') And please reply to this message if you have the time! Curtaintoad (curtain or toad) 11:37, 22 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
Not sure what you mean by being your friend. We're just pixels on a website, hopefully going after the same goal of improving the site. Take it easy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:53, 22 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
Okay. Curtaintoad (curtain or toad) 23:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)Reply


Having polluted your talk page with all the self revealing material about the unfinished post graduate project (any archiving of any of the material would be appreciated...) - could you be so kind as to delete the page entitled SatuSuro/sandbox please? I inadvertantly created it without placing the rather important User: in there , and the redirect page is now redundant. Thanks sats (talk) 08:33, 24 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

I deleted the redirect. I thought anyone could do that, though. No? As for the other stuff, go ahead and delete or archive anything you don't want to be here that concerns you, as long as it won't mess up a conversation that's important for some other reason. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:57, 24 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
nah no big deal really - as for the delete - I didnt think ord eds could do... sats (talk) 12:00, 24 February 2013 (UTC)Reply


Hello! I was just checking Prevalla. The text has been taken from [15] which is under Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License and afaik, according to Wikivoyage:Copyleft, the user who created the article is able to use the text from it. Maybe I'm wrong but I think this has always been like this (CC-by-sa-3.0 or Pd is allowed on wikimedia projects). Thank you in advance--Arnaugir (talk) 15:41, 24 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

You are right, but I don't think unattributed copying is OK, as we don't allow that from Wikipedia, either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
Yes, it should be cited, maybe in edit summary or talk page? like in wikipedia.--Arnaugir (talk) 14:52, 26 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Suharto's regime & the military

I decided to put this on your page instead of on the Talk: Indonesia page since it seemed of interest to you and not so useful for travelers to know, perhaps. I hope that you don't mind.

Your comments about your experience in the 70's during Suharto's reign spurred my curiosity. Yesterday, I was judging a competition so, afterwards, I took the time to ask my fellow judges (all in their early/mid 30s) about the Suharto era. I also asked my mother-in-law today, whose husband was a police officer (he was part of the first batch to graduate from officer's school), about what her perception of that time was. I thought you might find the information interesting.

Prior to Suharto taking control, the masses viewed him as the best choice to succeed Sukarno. There was no awareness of his villainy and machinations against Sukarno. After his rise to president/dictator, the national educational system (at least up to secondary) was used as a propaganda system to plant in the minds of the masses that he was a great man. And, indeed, the commentators I spoke to all agreed that he did a great deal of good for the common person. But, they were - in effect - brainwashed into believing him to be a hero of the highest caliber (sounds like N. Korea, almost?). Three of the four stated they were completely unaware of Suharto's real nature prior to entering university. Even as the wife of an officer, my mom-in-law knew very little about what was going on because her husband didn't discuss police matters with her. One commented that there were rumors going around prior to university, but it was their fellow students (activists) who opened their eyes to the corruption and abuses of Suharto's regime. In particular, one of them commented that some of her "seniors" (activists) disappeared from campus, never to be heard from again. They all confirmed the illegal imprisonments, kidnappings and "petrus" (penembak misterius = mystery shooters). They also told me that Suharto had a special way of dealing with the craftiest of criminals in Indonesia - the ones who couldn't be caught or proved guilty: he'd have them shot.

An interesting comment: they all felt that corruption became MUCH worse after Suharto was ousted. I have to say, though, that in recent years I've noticed a bit of a decline in naughty behavior (but not enough for my tastes!). Perhaps, however, it's because I tend to take a hard line with corruptors so they know I'm not interested in giving "uang rokok".

A couple of years ago, I read the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and he talked about being here during the 70's and how people were very politically aware - but he wasn't socializing with the masses. He was socializing with the well-educated. When you were there, were the people who were speaking out also well-educated (just curious)? If what they all said to me is accurate, then a great many Indonesians were unaware of the crimes committed (at least during his reign). I would love to be able to run a large-scale survey about this - it'd be very interesting, don't you think?

A few weeks ago, a man I met by chance recently popped in for a visit. During the course of conversation, he revealed to me that he believed that the military still rule Indonesia. If we look at the number of ex-military candidates (and SBY) who've run for president, one might wonder. So, I asked the same people for their thoughts on this topic. Here's what they said.

On a national and regional level, the military has a great deal of influence on the political process, even to the point of being able to make laws and influence decisions and, in fact, they have a body that has political power (PangLima, they said) at the national level, and the PangDam on a provincial level (or maybe I've got them reversed). These groups have a great deal of power, it seems.

In addition, they told me that the military is also very needed because of all the disasters so, while there are many stories of the military ripping off people (a neighbor back in Semarang was ripped off for an entire property by a commander quite recently), behaving as if they are superior to everyone else and abusing their power, they haven't been excised from general power. I also remember being told that the reason Megawati continued to back Sutiyoso as governor of Jakarta was because she needed his military connections. What's your take on this military angle? It certainly isn't obvious to me (aside from stories told to me recently), but I don't know a lot about the political structure here. ReveurGAM (talk) 06:39, 25 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

From an academic point of view the military issue started in the 1940's and you cannot understand Indonesian history from then unless you have a very good understanding of their role from then until now. As to whether they are needed is irrelevent... in the end sats (talk) 08:18, 25 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Great stories as usual, Reveur. The people who spoke with us in 1976 ran a fairly wide gamut. One of them was an artist who was imprisoned for years without trial in Buru, for no specified reason (he figured that an artists' union he belonged to was considered somehow Communist by the military) and then suddenly released, but most of them were working-class people like cab and bemo drivers and the driver the US Embassy provided for my father in Jakarta when he was lecturing at the auspices of the US Information Service. It's a long time ago, but it seems like easily over a dozen people we encountered spontaneously complained to us about "banyak korupsi." A particularly touching moment was when a cabbie in Jakarta recited an Indonesian translation of the preamble to the US Constitution by heart. It really touched me to see that, despite the US government's complicity with their government's depredations, most Indonesians seemed to still think of the US as a land of democracy and freedom and trust the American people. The only real exception was the time in Berastagi when teenagers threw clods of stone-hard dirt at my mother, yelling "Belanda" and continuing when we said "Bukan! Kami orang Amerika." Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

A barnstar for you!

  The Admin's Barnstar
In appreciation of your hard work and dedication. INeverCry 22:51, 25 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, INeverCry. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Give me some work? :)

Could you find me some work, something to do, etc? I'm getting a tad bored. Ceadeus Slayer Sea of Blood -Underwater Ruins 19:43, 27 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Can you draw maps? A map of the proposed boundary is needed here: Talk:South_Island#Boundary_of_Queenstown-Lakes_.2F_Otago.3F -- 21:15, 27 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
Also, there's always Wikivoyage: Recent changes patrol. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:45, 27 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
If you like making articles, there is information here: 27 New section on folk religion provided by Spartacks and here: Pariaman information from an interview by me. These could be incorporated into a new article about Pariaman. Spartacks is from that general area, so he can probably answer questions for you. ReveurGAM (talk) 15:04, 1 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
Would Spartacks consider writing the article? I've never been to Pariaman Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:27, 1 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
I don't think he has time as he is one of the main editors for the new Minangkabau edition of WP and, thus, has a lot of work to do to make sure that the committee doesn't yank it. I just suggested it since Ceadeus said s/he was bored. When I have time again, I'll do it if it isn't done yet. Right now I'm busy researching for my book on education. ReveurGAM (talk) 05:21, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
Cool! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:31, 2 March 2013 (UTC)Reply


-- Alice 05:27, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Put it in Project:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:30, 5 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Indigenous tourism in australia

Sheesh the article text is an insult to the readers intelligence... rubbish... pity my laptop battery needs re-charging....sats (talk) 09:53, 6 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I might have a chance to look at it in about 18 hours but probably not sooner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:02, 6 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
Still have computer problems - the generic preaching in the article might or not pass a wv test - but really the complexity of the culture and the issues in each separate state are worth explaining. My reason for being negative about the article is that it is hardly an example of well explained introduction to the heritage that spreads across the country, and has so many variations. Simply put the last few sentences are a bit too blandly generalised as to be of any use to a traveller... sats (talk) 08:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
I don't know enough about Aboriginal cultures to knowledgeably edit it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
OK I'll get around to try to broaden its scope, but will be delayed to real life issues... thanks for responding - cheers sats (talk) 08:48, 7 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
Of course! And remember, you're a volunteer here (as we all are), so no obligation, and deal with real-life issues first! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:49, 7 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
My resolve when I get the time next week is to see how indigenous populations in all other countries are dealt with... so maybe they are as good or as bad... as articles or sections of articles... sats (talk) 13:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)Reply


re: [16] - good idea. --Piotrus (talk) 05:41, 11 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Glad to help! Welcome, and thanks for your edits.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:43, 11 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Adding a hotel

How do you add a hotel to the site? Since the Best Western Haiti is a brand new hotel in Haiti and the only american owned hotel, I fell users could benefit from there information.

Do you work for the hotel or do publicity for them in any capacity? If so, you can't add a listing. If not, make sure you don't use ALL CAPS or otherwise touty, advertising-like language. As I said on your user talk page, please read wbo and dt. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)Reply


What is unclear about "The official tourist office or government web site for a destination"?

You can't put it as a naked link by itself. The title of the article, Newark (New Jersey) can have a link right after it to the official tourist office, or the tourist office can have a listing. It cannot be a naked link. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:10, 17 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
But also, this is not a mere official tourist office link. You are linking a Vistors Guide. Wikivoyage:External links#What not to link to prohibits links to "Other travel guides," without specifying that official visitors guides are OK, and that is intentional. The list of landmarks should be used as a reference for editors here, not a link, though readers can certainly find it through the main site, which is linked at the top of the article.
The basis of many of the External Links policies is that we want information to be on this site, rather than off-site only, at some link. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:19, 17 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Musandam Peninsula

Hi mate! I'm sadly back from my last trip. I started a complete overhaul of Musandam and Khasab to better ignore the snow. Could you check a bit for spelling, grammar etc. as i only start to see text? I want to bring it to guide, so that i'm able to nominate it for OtBP. I know that i have to change pics in Khasab but beside that, what is missing? Thank you and regards, jan (talk) 16:34, 27 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi. Sure, I'll have a look when I have a chance. Sounds like an interesting trip! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:52, 27 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
Done! It looks like you had a fascinating trip! The main issues I saw were "alt" listings that were more or less repetitions of listing names. The "alt" field should be left blank unless, for example, a hotel used to have a different name (in which case, alt="Formerly known as X"). Also, addresses need to be street addresses, not post office boxes - the point of the addresses is not so that people can write to an attraction, but so they can get to it. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thank you very much for your check! It now reads so much better. Writing on a IPhone definitely deteriorates the quality... The alt listing were already in from the past and i tried to delete them, too. Just to many of them and even on the Ipad hard to delete. Thanks again and have a nice easter weekend, jan (talk) 11:13, 30 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
You're most welcome! Happy Easter to you, too. Where else did you go on your recent trip? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:01, 30 March 2013 (UTC)Reply


Why not red link ? . פארוק (talk) 17:02, 28 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Shalom and todah rabah for all your great work!
The reason why the red links weren't useful is that there will never be articles about attractions. Please read Wikivoyage:What is an article?.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:30, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
Ok. but places of tourist visit, can i writte about this ?. פארוק (talk) 08:03, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
Of course you can, and please continue! It's just that attractions should (except in very rare cases) be covered as "See" or "Do" entries within city guides, as you've been doing, and not in their own separate articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:26, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
But places that i put red link is places of tourist visiting. פארוק (talk) 09:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
I understand that, and what I'm saying is that red-linking attractions is not a useful way to emphasize them. Instead, put the name of the attraction in Bold type by using three ' in a row on either side ('''See or do name'''), and don't write any separate article about any attraction. Do you understand what I'm saying? Did you have a look at Wikivoyage:What is an article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:14, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
Ok. thank you very much. פארוק (talk) 09:16, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
Any time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:18, 29 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Talk:Appalachian Region

Should Appalachian Region and Appalachian Mountains be merged? Nicole Sharp (talk) 09:15, 31 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps, to avoid confusion, but don't worry about that right now. I also replied in Talk:Appalachian Region.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)Reply


Yeah maybe it shouldn't be added, but the "secret" bases are definitely real, and its not uncommon to see tanks and military convoys chugging down the mountain on I-68, I see them at least every couple months or so. The NSA operates ECHELON (a satellite intercept facility) in the National Radio Quiet Zone, the only radio-quiet zone in the United States (where no radio transmissions are allowed in order for dishes to pick up signals from outer space). Another not-so-secret base is in Lewisburg, WV, where a huge top-secret facility was built under a luxury resort to hold the US Congress and Cabinet during a nuclear war. But there should be a Wikivoyage page to list UFO hotspots on and for Wikivoyagers to post where they saw UFO sightings. I've long advocated for using Wikimedia for organizing UFO sightings, Wikinews said they weren't interested :-(. Nicole Sharp (talk) 11:37, 31 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

UFO hotspots is a fine travel topic, in my opinion, but it would be best to exercise caution and gain a consensus before starting the article. I get your point about secret military bases, but in what way is that a safety issue for travelers? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:44, 31 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
I just wanted to weigh in and say that UFO hotspots could be an interesting travel topic for those tourists who are into that sort of stuff. But we have to be careful in avoiding it becoming an updatable list of sightings. It should only focus on hotspots, not every spot! :) JamesA >talk 11:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
I'll remove the section for UFOs#UFO sightings. However certain places such as locations of crashes or places with physical traces, abduction sites, etc. are still important for historical reasons and for ufological research, such as Roswell, NM or Kecksburg, PA. Nicole Sharp (talk) 11:54, 31 March 2013 (UTC)Reply
Yup, those sorts of places are fine. JamesA >talk 11:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yeah unless you're wanted by the Military Police I guess, I created a new page, UFOs. Nicole Sharp (talk) 11:48, 31 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

User reply

You beat me to User talk:Ldecola by just a few seconds! :P I did have a short paragraph response written up, but you hit the nail on the head. In other matters, I'd appreciate your input (support if applicable) at Wikivoyage_talk:Barncompasses. Cheers, JamesA >talk 11:47, 31 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi Ikan. I had previously added Eritrea to my project list, but hadn't got around to it, prioritising Qatar instead. Info on Keren does seem to be fairly scarce. The only sources I can find are the Wikipedia article and an old Lonely Planet chapter on Eritrea. They do have a fairly detailed lot of listings on Keren. If you wanted to help develop our article, I can email you the chapter... just don't tell Lonely Planet :P JamesA >talk 06:54, 1 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, James. Please make the edits whenever; no rush. Goodness knows, I have a lot of work to do for my actual paying job (as you may for yours). Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:02, 1 April 2013 (UTC)Reply


Thanks for the proofread and the vote of confidence ;) Since you've already had a look over the article, would you mind commenting on the starnom? --Peter Talk 15:26, 4 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Denial of service attack?

Swept in from the pub

What happened here? was inaccessible to me for some 15 hours. Instead, "DNS Advantage" came up. All other language versions of Wikivoyage worked, and the other travel wiki was also up. It would seem that there hasn't been nearly enough traffic here to hang this site. Is this being investigated as a possible denial of service attack? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:54, 5 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Haven't seen anything of the sort from here. Texugo (talk) 22:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
No issues of that nature here, either. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:46, 5 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
My guess is that it's a DNS caching issue rather than something on the WMF side. --Rschen7754 03:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
No problem seen here, Eastern Canada. The WP page on DNS_Advantage is interesting. Pashley (talk) 11:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
So what's my recourse if this happens again? It can't be purely accidental that was the only page that wasn't working, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:19, 6 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
As Rschen7754 noted, a DNS issue is almost certainly a problem on your local machine or with your internet provider. There are options to flush DNS caches if the problem is on your machine (sometimes a reboot may do that), or you can try changing the DNS server you use for lookups - Google DNS is an option and there are some instructions on that page for using it. Note that changing DNS is a fairly technical thing, so probably best not to fiddle around with it unless you continue having problems. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:56, 6 April 2013 (UTC)Reply


Hi Ikan, thanks for the check-up. So now I found you as a Malaysia expert! ;-) Next August will likely be the first time I go there, as part of a South-East Asia trip, so I'm not too familiar with any of those places. Please do add any places I've missed. As for the "luxurious", as I understand it from the policy page that refers mostly to hotels and such. My point was rather to include a high-end resort hotspot in the see-section, like Goa would be in India or the French Riviera in France. I think part of the audience is always looking that. Of course there are resorts everywhere, but would Langkawi be a fair pick? Then I'll just try to find some other wordings. (P.S. any personal tips for not to miss places on Peninsular Malaysia are appreciated too haha ;-))) Cheers, JuliasTravels (talk) 09:33, 7 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, Julias. I have never been to Langkawi (nor to the Perhentian Islands, either, though my brother, who scuba dives, loved them). My expertise is dated, too: I haven't been to Malaysia since 2004. I also have yet to visit East Malaysia (the part of Malaysia on Borneo). All that said, and with the caveat that I speak Malay fluently and have an appreciation for Malay culture that ordinary visitors without anthropologist mothers and a history of living in a kampung (Malaysian village) may lack, I'll mention that on my last trip, I liked KL very much, though it was of course radically different from on my previous trip (1975-77!). I also found that, though much more developed, the coast of Terengganu was still beautiful (actually, the petrochemical plants near Paka are also beautiful!), and Kota Bharu was interesting for about 3-4 days (I probably stayed a day too long - I think I was there for 5 - and I understand the local dialect perfectly, as it's very similar to Terengganu dialect, which I was fluent in, so take that as a caveat). I enjoyed a couple of days in Ipoh very much; there's great food there and it's a more relaxing city than KL, with some nice late 19th/early 20th-century colonial buildings in the center of town. There are also some interesting cave temples nearby - karst limestone hills (I think) that have been turned into mostly Chinese temples, though one I visited was Hindu.
In the 70s, I found Penang very much worth visiting, but I didn't make it back in 2004. I'm sure it's still worth visiting. It's renowned for great food and has a character all its own. We enjoyed taking a funicular railway to the highest point on the island; see if it's still operating.
Malacca disappointed us because there are only a few old colonial buildings, but it's probably worth going there, anyway. Malacca is well-known for Peranakan/Nyonya cuisine, traditionally cooked by the descendants of Malay women who married Chinese men hundreds of years ago (after the Chinese were sent as a result of Qin Shi Huang's voyages). The Peranakan people are mostly not Muslims, so they eat pork, but their cuisine is a fusion of Chinese and Malay influence. You can get it in places other than Malacca, but that may be the place where it's easiest to get it in great diversity.
I did not go to Johor but did visit Singapore, had great food, but found it too antiseptic. But that was 1976. I hear it's quite a lot more individualistic now, in relative terms.
There were some more off-the-beaten-track places we liked in the 70s, too: In Negeri Sembilan, we liked the Istana Lama (Old Palace) in Seri Menanti; a web search shows that there's now a RM150/night resort there. Kemaman, Terengganu had a few beautiful ornate wooden buildings of a style influenced by the royal style of Johor, perhaps dating from the time when Kemaman was a semi-autonomous area with its own quasi-sultan. I have no idea if any of those buildings still stand and haven't found photos of any of them on Commons.
You might consider also visiting Indonesia. There's much more traditional culture still happening there, at least in parts of the country. Traditional Malay culture has been stamped out to a large degree as antithetical to orthodox Islam, whereas the Indonesian government has to a large extent sponsored a continuation of traditional culture like Kejawen (Javaneseness) in Java.
All that said, if your main interest is scuba diving, I think that Sipadan and the Perhentian Islands are for you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:08, 7 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thanks a lot Ikan, that's far more information than I would have dared to ask for. No, scuba diving is not really my thing (although I'd love to learn properly one day), so your suggestions are very welcome. I'll only have a week or two for Malaysia this time. Indonesia, especially Bali, is our next destination, hopefully for a longer tour. Again, thanks :-) JuliasTravels (talk) 11:13, 7 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
You're most welcome. In a week, a trip to the East Coast might be a bit much to do, but if you go back, it would be a good change of pace from the more heavily populated and ethnically diverse (or/and more Chinese) West Coast cities of KL, Penang, Ipoh, Malacca, etc. Terengganu and Kelantan are very Malay and probably still pretty peaceful on rural areas of the coast, though the cities of Kuantan, Kuala Terengganu, and Kota Bharu were already humongous in 2004 by comparison with the 70s, with most of the virgin jungle cut down near the coast for profit and to make way for communities that didn't use to exist. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:54, 7 April 2013 (UTC)Reply


Hello Ikan Kekek, please block the above username, as it is probably [17] a violation of the username policy that represents a group, organisation, or website. By the way, do you know and how do I send block nominations? Regards, —CURTAINTOAD!07:00, 8 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

What username policy are you referring to? I don't know of such a policy, so please point to the relevant policy page. Moreover, from what I've seen so far, the user in question has presented a very cooperative attitude.
I also don't know of block nominations, only nominations for URL blocks, which can be posted to MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Bot to add banners to Category:Austria

Hi Ikan. I noticed you seem to be about in the Recent Changes. I'd appreciate if you'd add your administrator's support at Wikivoyage:Script_nominations#User:Traveler100bot_pagebanner. Traveler100 is going on a plane soon, and it'd be good if we could have something to play with and test at Austria before that happens. With regards, JamesA >talk 06:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Links to Wikipedia

Hi Ikan, you removed links to Wikipedia from Leiden article. But it seems to me that is not what this policy article suggests: Cheers, Erik Zachte (talk) 19:11, 16 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Did you read Wikivoyage:Links to Wikipedia#Different subject? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
No, I just did, thanks. I also looked at the discussion page, and see this has been hotly debated recently. To me it seems odd for Wikivoyage to become a Wikimedia project and still treat Wikipedia as a foreign site. 100,000's of articles would have to be replicated to bring depth to Wikivoyage on buildings, people and more where it is readily available one link away. Anyway, you were right that your action was according to current policy. Cheers, Erik Zachte (talk) 14:35, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Yes, this is indeed a hotly-debated question, and one you could contribute your own viewpoint to. But do keep in mind that a link to Wikipedia is a standard feature of almost all Wikivoyage articles. The debate is about whether it serves the site to have multiple links to Wikipedia in each article, on different subjects than the subject of the article, and also on whether it really does serve the traveler to link to a tertiary source, and one particular such source, in entries (or even more controversially, anywhere in an article).Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:42, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

About Sochi

Sounds fine to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)Reply


Thanks for your revisions. Only I don't understand your question "What "the first decennium"? Do you mean the decade 1-10 AD or 1900-1910? Copy edited, but this point still needs clarification." Concerning the text: The current suburbs, Leidschendam and Voorburg, developed in the 20th century. Voorburg, which is closer to central The Hague, started to grow already in the first decenniums. Leidschendam only started to become a suburb in the fifties, and as a consequence in this town highrise developed on a rather larger scale, whereas Voorburg was already fully built up in the era of highrise architecture.

Isn't it very clear that it's about 1900-1920 or 1930. Also in the sentence before is described dat Voorburg developed as a suburb in the 20th century.VanuitVoorburg (talk) 13:40, 18 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi. We don't use the word "decennium" in English. The word we use is "decade," but based on what you're telling me, the text should read "the early 20th century." I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:39, 18 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thanks again and sorry for my mistakes!VanuitVoorburg (talk) 17:49, 3 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
You're welcome, and there's no cause to apologize; the important thing is that you put up the content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:38, 3 May 2013 (UTC)Reply


Thanks. Don't know how that happened. My guess is that the page hadn't fully loaded when I saved it. --RegentsPark (talk) 19:05, 18 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Glad to help.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:23, 18 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Photo linking help

Swept in from the pub

Hi, everyone. Please have a look at Latina. Two of the photos I just tried to link are showing up as red links. That's because they are in, not Commons, as I detail in Talk:Latina. I suppose the solution is to move the photos to Commons, but I don't know how to do that and also don't know whether that could be a problem in regard to Italy's law (if any) on photos of architecture from the 1930s. I feel like showing a bit of fascist architecture is the right thing to do in the Latina guide, since the city was inaugurated in 1932 and probably is still chock-full of fascist architecture as it was in 1991, when I had occasion to be there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

They are both in the Public Domain and you can transfer the photos yourself (the images are: 1 & 2). They have both been tagged for transfer to Commons. I don't understand why some images uploaded to Wikipedia remained tagged for transfer for years and don't get moved by the transfer bot. AHeneen (talk) 09:01, 18 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for confirming that they are in the public domain. Is there someplace I can read easy instructions on how to transfer the photos? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:21, 18 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Maybe take a look at [18]. Or else I could do it for you if you want :) JamesA >talk 10:05, 18 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. I took care of it, but boy did those file transfers take a long time! Do they usually take several minutes apiece with a DSL connection? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
It's not your connection that's important, I think... unless you downloaded and re-uploaded the files manually. By the way, the images on the Italian Wikipedia now need to be marked with their equivalent of w:Template:NowCommons so that they can be deleted. LtPowers (talk) 15:03, 18 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
I took care of it. It turns out to be the same template on Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply


Hello Ikan Kekek, thank you for welcoming :)

Do you know how can I rename (correct) titles?

Peñíscola, Dénia, etc. are spelled with acute accents. Lliure albir (talk) 21:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Is it also possible we rename Valencia (region) to either Valencia (autonomous community) or Valencian Community?
Yes to your first question. What would be required would be to move the article. At the top of the page, you should see a triangle facing down. From the dropdown menu, select "Move." Then, in the move screen, type the spelling you want to move the article to and give a reason in the summary box. Always leave a redirect behind at the former spelling. If this is any trouble, you can always propose the move in the talk (discussion) page for the article in question and someone else will execute the move unless there's some reason not to do it.
As for your second question on renaming "Valencia," I'm guessing not, but the right place to bring this up for discussion is Talk:Valencia. The reason I doubt you could get a consensus behind such a rename is that we don't like long official names, as the point of this site is to serve the traveller.
One unrelated thing: Official tourism sites should be put as a URL only in square brackets [], at the beginning of the the article right after the place name.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:43, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for your help =)
I can't see the small triangle, why? Could that be because I am a new user? Lliure albir (talk) 22:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Yes, I think there may be some minimum amount of time a user has to be registered before s/he can move a page, but I don't know for sure. So maybe your best bet is to post the suggested name changes on the talk pages of each article Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply


Thanks for the textual adjustments of this article. English is not my native language (I'm Dutch) so any improvement is welcome. A few days ago I added the article Ustica. I would appreciate if you give it a short review. WiDi (talk) 10:15, 26 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sure thing. I'll have a look some time over the weekend.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:21, 26 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
It was quite good. Most of what I changed had to do with the treatment of URLs, for which, see external links. But there will probably be a change to the standard format soon, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:41, 28 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for your help. WiDi (talk) 14:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
You're welcome.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:49, 29 April 2013 (UTC)Reply


For the edits at eyre highway - I have done it too many times in different ways to feel that enamoured of the 10 hour + stretches of nothing... will check it again - thanks again (last time - Eucla to Perth in one go... sigh, I dont think I'll ever try that again) sats (talk) 10:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, it sounds deadly! There's a stretch of highway in southern California like that - 60 miles straight through desert. I've flown over it. I think it goes from LA to Las Vegas. People speed to avoid falling asleep at the wheel, so I've heard. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

English Variant Editing

Hi Ikan, I have been writing my contributions to South and North Korea in US English (I am myself British). I don't really accept that 'Commonwealth English' is a standard when no local English language variant exists, however Wikitravel policy seems vague on this point. Do you know of a way that that this issue can be resolved by explicit policy? Thanks! Andrew

Hi, Andrew. The current policy is essentially enunciated at Wikivoyage:Spelling. The key point: "If the destination has no history of using English and no clear preference for the variety to use, we prefer US English spelling." My feeling is that your approach is exactly right: That South Korea prefers US spellings and North Korea presumably prefers British spellings. There may be room to argue for a default to US spelling for North Korea, but I really don't see it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:19, 29 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Well, it doesn't seem like the biggest issue. I actually haven't seen any evidence that North Korea uses British English for official documents, therefore I assume US English should be the one used. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
It is crystal clear that US English is the variant to be used for South Korea.
However, I find it slightly comical that you think that the DPRK would specifically sanction US English in the same way their sworn enemies in the south do, Andrewssi2. What passes for official DPRK sites typically use non-US spelling (eg: uses time-honoured and metres rather than "time-honored" and meters) and that non-US spelling version is also the one that most North Koreans I have met (and I have met a large number both inside and outside the DPRK) use. All the official forms for tourists in use in North Korea that I have seen (eg: hotel registration forms and meal ordering) use (relatively good and correct) non-US spellings - but using the OED idiosyncracy of -ize rather than -ise.
This may change very suddenly of course if the current Kim family tyrant has another whim.
I agree that our wv:Spelling policy page is less than clear at the moment. To see why, you can read through the interminable argy bargy at Wikivoyage_talk:Spelling.
For a clearer statement of what I also believe to be the current working practice here at Wikivoyage, you might like to read the page from which we forked a while back: (a lot of people put a lot of effort into that site and it's a pity to see it go to waste).
If you ever visit the DPRK - or even one of their diplomatic missions - you'll understand why I find your earlier stance that DPRK articles should exclusively use US English ever so slightly risible.
PS: I'm NOT British (huge conspiratorial grin). -- Alice 07:21, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with Alice here. North Korea is in China's sphere of influence, to the extent they pay attention to anyone, and clear enemies of the US. I would continue using British spellings for strictly North Korea articles. If there's a real question about that, it might be necessary to spend time discussing that at Talk:North Korea. But I would just do it, and not spend time discussing it on a talk page, trying to gain a consensus, since there are more important things to discuss at length. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Ikan Kekek is again spot on when he suggests using the discussion page of a particular article to seek a consensus to change the spelling variety of English where a consistent particular variety has been established already on non-destination articles or where the destination has no clear link to a particular variety. In the proximate case, most of our current editors for our DPRK articles (including, I presume, yourself) are happier with non-US varieties. (Including our resident IP apologists for the DPRK regime). -- Alice 08:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Alice, Ikan. I actually really don't mind which version of English is used, just that there would be a clear policy around it and that policy that could be clearly applied to all Wikivoyage articles. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:40, 29 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
I think we really can't do that. It would look very odd to have articles about Britain in American English and articles about the US in British English, and enforcing either policy would waste loads of time and cause lots of pretty justified offense. The most we can do is be consistent for each country. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:43, 29 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
I know that "lists" are anathema to a lot of stalwarts here, but I really do think it would save a lot of (ultimately not very productive) typing if we could just tweak policy to specify the 113 odd countries where there is a relatively clear varietal connection. Those 113 probably will account for more than 85% of all editing on Wikivoyage. I agree that the remaining 96 odd "countries" may be slightly problematic, but my idea of an approach to their respective governments for adjudication would probably only leave 3-7 "undecideds".-- Alice 09:00, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree, but that probably needs to be discussed in a policy page to gain the indubitable, exhausting consensus... Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
Alice's suggestion is actually what I meant around policy clarification. I'm not sure what mechanism in WikiVoyage (if any) could be employed to achieve the consensus --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:53, 30 April 2013 (UTC)Reply
As Alice suggested, you may want to slog through the preexisting discussion at Wikivoyage Talk:Spelling and give your 2 pence. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:23, 30 April 2013 (UTC)Reply


Hello Ikan Kekek,
Just for practice I played with the Maastricht routebox. Is this a correct way? I ask this as the route numbers change at the Belgium border. A2 becomes A25, and N278 changes into N79.

Routes through archive
AmsterdamGeleen  N   S  → Belgium Border (6 km) → A25 Liège
ENDHeerlen  E   w  END
AachenVaals  E    w  → Belgium Border → N79 Sint-Truiden

WiDi (talk) 12:35, 3 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Maybe I was to fast with my question. I found Wikivoyage:Routebox navigation. I think this is better. Do you agree? WiDi (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
Routes through archive
AmsterdamGeleen  N   S  → Belgium Border (6 km) →   Liège
ENDHeerlen  E   w  END
AachenVaals  E    w  → Belgium Border →   Sint-Truiden

Yes, the second one looks better. I'd say, go ahead and put the routebox in. In the event someone thinks it can be improved (which I doubt), they can always edit it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:39, 3 May 2013 (UTC)Reply


Thanks for the support. I'll be patient. :)

The reason I mentioned possible hesitation from contributions to the project by users from Croatia if inapropriate grouping would remain was not intended to be a form of pressure or threat, but based on cognition I have that some very deligent and laborious users (and admins) of Wikipedia in Croatian language don't contribute to the Wikipedia in English. Just because of their experience with similar things on regarding favouring mental concepts instead of knowledge about Croatia history and culture. People don't like to fight against windmills. Maybe what I mentioned is the reason why isn't so clear about Croatia as a Central European and Mediterranean country. I wouldn't like if that problem would appear here as well and I'm pretty convinced it won't because wikivoyage has excellent The traveller comes first rule you pointed to me. So I think and hope consensus will eventually be made to respect the rule properly in this subject too. Please have understanding if my English is not always correct.

Now I'm gonna spend some time exploring the project in order to start contributing articles. All the best, Vrkach (talk) 00:18, 12 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

All good points, in my opinion. Thanks.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:51, 12 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Avalon vacation rentals

Would you care to weigh in on Talk:Avalon#Vacation Rentals? Thanks! Mcd51 (talk) 01:19, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Unconstructive threat

I have removed your constructive threats from my page: in future, please could you keep discussions civil.—The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)

I told you that you needed to stop edit warring and could be blocked if you continued. I think that's more civil than blocking you without warning, and the warning may have been what led to this discussion, so I'm unconvinced it had a bad effect but will certainly avoid mentioning these things if you continue being constructive. We want anyone who is here to improve the guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
Hi - you were being unconstructive & aggresive. Also, your claim that "You've given no good reason to change" could easily be classed as hypocritical considering your lack of a summary for this edit [19], and it is also incorrect as I gave an explanation (in the same vein as another by you) here [20] —The preceding comment was added by User: (talkcontribs)
I don't have to give the same editing summary twice for the same edit, and the fact that Taiwan is not in the US is not a meaningful explanation of why British spellings should be used, because Taiwan isn't in Britain, either, as you of course know. I don't see a point in discussing this further. Go ahead and edit the content, as you discussed below, but leave the American spellings unless you can give a good reason for why they should be changed to British spellings. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:46, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Taipei article

Please advise:

  • Why spellings unique to the US should be used for non-US articles.
There are quite a few discussions on WikiVoyage around this very point. Usually each country uses one variant of English for local usage (either American English or 'Commonwealth' English). Taiwan would be regarded as using American English. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
  • Why you describe the 'metro' as 'subway'. The former is by far more universally used, whilst the latter has other meanings.
  • Why you added 'pavements (US English: sidewalks)'. I can find no other comparable explanations, such as 'subway (English: metro)'.
  • Why you added the personal commentary 'My favorite is the kobe beef pot and mushroom pot.'
  • Why you replaced the widely recognised 'air-con' with 'A/C', which is less widely used and is open to misunderstanding.
  • Why you added a number of unnecessary exclaimation marks '!'. —The preceding comment was added by (talkcontribs)
First, please sign talk pages by typing 4 tildes in a row (~~~~).
Second, I didn't add anything: I just reverted your edits, which introduced unnecessary British English. I don't have a dispute with the other changes you are mentioning, but we've had a problem lately with people changing Taiwan articles to British English unnecessarily, so I'm a bit sensitive about this. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
  • "Second, I didn't add anything" Then you simply blind reverted changes? And then posted an unconstructive threat to me about my edits!
  • "we've had a problem lately with people changing Taiwan articles to British English unnecessarily" Why is this a 'problem', especially as 'British' English is what is used outside the US?
<ANSWER> The is factually incorrect. 'British' English is not the accepted English spelling system in every country outside the US. Taiwan is a case in point. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:12, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
Andrew, I don't think I would spend time "correcting" a Taiwan article that was originally written in British English, but I think it's clear that Taiwan has a strong cultural connection with the US, and not nearly so strong with Britain (though there are longstanding ties with Hong Kong), so if anyone _changes_ American to British English in Taiwan articles, I will revert. Similarly, someone recently "corrected" British English in an article about a place in Belgium to American English, and I reverted that. Basically, I look askance as language trolls and believe there should be a strong reason to change one form of standard English to another. So I will, for example, change American to British spellings in articles about India, but I won't change spellings in either direction for places like Ethiopia, where I'm totally unclear on whether anyone there would care what spellings are used. Anyone who changes from one standard form of English to another should have a good reason for doing so, and explain it in their editing summary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:42, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
Hi Ikan, I am not user I was responding to user --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:44, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
I know that, but I felt like further addressing your comment, anyway. Thanks, Andrew.
All the best,
Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:47, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply
Oh, I figured out what happened. The bulleted list is all from the IP user, and you replied to the first question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

Adirondack Park

I promise, it's not a state park [21] ;) It's taxonomy is weird, but there's more info at w:Adirondack Park#Today. --Peter Talk 05:05, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

OK. That wasn't made clear at the official sites I looked at, but it sounds authoritative. Thanks, Peter. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:13, 14 May 2013 (UTC)Reply


Cuba is a democracy and has not been a single party state since the 90's. Stop spreading false information.


I won't debate this. If you'd like to engage in political polemics, go to some other site where people are interested. This is a travel guide, not a political debating club. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:27, 19 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

User blocks