User talk:Ikan Kekek/archive

Hello, Ikan Kekek! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Project:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub.

I wanted to make sure you got the proper welcome! And thanks for your work on NYC. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:26, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Thank you, Peter, and thanks for your work, too! (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:08, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

• Hey, thanks for the compliments. Anyway, you asked about the Chinatown article - I'm planning to improve it further, the reason I took down the cuisine categories is that Wikivoyage articles don't usually divide restaurants by cuisine, they divide them by price. If you think about it, it's simpler to just have three simple categories (by price) then to have multiple categories (by cuisine), especially when a lot of those categories have only one or two listings. Anyway, the current state of the article is just temporary. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 00:14, 3 August 2009 (EDT)

Thanks for creating a user page - I was wondering why someone who posted about etiquette-as-practiced-in-Manhattan had a user name that sounded Southeast Asian-ish, but now the mystery has been solved :) -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 02:04, 12 April 2011 (EDT)

Yeah. I was really bicultural as well as bilingual for most of those 2 years. And I spoke Malay with a thick Terengganu accent! I still have some traditional Malay beliefs today. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:16, 12 April 2011 (EDT)

Hi Ikan,

   Thanks for editing the page of my province,Urdaneta! You are great editor.I'm jealous but i'm happy that you edit correctly the page.Thanks!

(WT-en) Angellene10

Using talk pages

While I'll stay as long from any punctuation debate as I possibly can. Just a quick pointer, new sections on talk pages should always be added to the bottom of the page. Otherwise us old dogs that you can't teach new tricks, have trouble finding the stuff. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 17:37, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

Thanks, Stefan. I'll keep that in mind. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 22:44, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

Hi Ikan Sorry to piss you off. Don't worry this is only a school project and I just want an A. Delete whatever, I don't care as long as my teacher sees what I wrote in the history it works. Have a good one. Heatherberg

The thing is, you're doing a very good job and your contributions are much appreciated. Don't take my edits based on Wikivoyage policies too much to heart. I hope that you stick around when you no longer need to do this for a grade.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 22:42, 16 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the kind comment I hope to build the page even better, I am actually in kota kinabalu Malaysia traveling right now and wikivoyage has saved me many times that I am trying to repay the favor haha. -Travellight

External links

I think you've already figured this out, but to recap, the External links policy in a nutshell is that primary sites (hotels, airlines, restaurants, etc) directly operated by the thing listed are OK, but secondary sites (booking engines, blogs, newspapers, travel guides) maintained by others are not. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:41, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, I did get that, thanks. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:26, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Brooklyn districts

We have tentatively agreed on a districts scheme for Brooklyn, and I was hoping you might take a look over it and share any feedback. It would also be fantastic, of course, if you would be willing to pitch in a bit with the actual task of moving content to new districts articles and replacing that content with overview prose in the Brooklyn article itself! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 20:19, 5 November 2009 (EST)

Get out

Just a heads up that this confusingly named section actually is meant to highlight nearby destinations worth visiting, rather than transport information! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 21:05, 24 August 2010 (EDT)

Shiny buttons

It's customary to ask someone if they'd be interested in having some additional buttons prior to a nomination. You've been around for a while, know the site's policies well, and would benefit from a rollback button, so would you mind if I put you up for nomination? -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:29, 1 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks, Ryan. If given the shiny new buttons, I promise not to break them.

All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:41, 1 April 2011 (EDT)

Two weeks have passed, so welcome to the admin club! You may need to log out and then log in again to see any change. Check out the Project:Administrator's handbook for instructions on how to use your shiny new buttons - while the "revert" button is pretty tough, "block", "protect" and "delete" should be handled with utmost care. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 16:47, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks, Ryan. I appreciate the confidence you all have shown in me. I expect to lean on you and the others for advice from time to time, while I learn the ropes.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:51, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

A question: What does "Rollback" do that's different from "Revert," if anything? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:54, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

I may have made a typo above - "rollback" as described here is what I meant when I typed "revert" above. It's useful for cases of vandalism, repeated policy violations, or other cases that involve reverting one or more edits that don't require any edit summary. If you're seeing "revert" anywhere then I suspect it's the same functionality, although I'm not seeing that option on a quick perusal of recent change or history pages so if you've got questions about a specific link you might need to let me know where you're seeing it :) -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 17:02, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

"Revert" is what I mean by the "undo" button. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:22, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

Rollback is a single step, which saves time but does not allow you to enter an edit summary. It automatically marks the edits in question as "patrolled" and removes all consecutive contributions that a person has made (undo removes only a single edit) so if someone makes five malicious edits in a row then rollback will remove all of them. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 17:28, 15 April 2011 (EDT)

Car Hire Listing Question

Hi Ikan, I notice you remove my work about car hire service from Yangshuo page. I think it is the same as hotel and restaurant listing. Should be okay to put it there.

I posted about this in the "Talk" (discussion) page for Yangshuo, so it's best to discuss it there, but part of the problem is what seems to me a touty tone in your description. But as I said, let's discuss the question there, where any other users interested in Yangshuo can easily address it.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:46, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

hi Ikan,

My car rental site is being removed from the link http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Dehradun#By_car

the policy says "Rental cars operators, in cities where they are common (10 or more operating in the city). Typically we don't provide details of national car rental chains in local guides. Providing details at the national level, and mentioning the name and location at local level is sufficient if required. " There is only one other listing. is there something wrong with my listing (WT-en) Ano0810 09:36, 4 June 2011 (EDT)ano0810

Hi. (1) Please identify yourself on talk pages by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) in a row at the end of your post, so that I know who you are. I'm guessing you are the owner of HemKund Sahib Tours and Travel? If so, you would have to satisfy the criteria under Project:Activity listings#Tour listings. In any case, you could have at most one listing and it would have to be in the right format (again, read Project:Activity listings). If this doesn't answer your questions, please clarify what you are asking about.

All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:15, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek Thank you for the information. I have read through the links provided and published in accordance with the guidelines. Please let me know if there is something more I could do to make the listing better. (WT-en) Ano0810 10:01, 4 June 2011 (EDT)ano0810

The problem is, it's not clear from either your listing or your website what services you provide. If you are a tour provider, that lack of clarity makes you out of compliance with the criteria for acceptable tour listings, under Project:Activity listings#Tour listings.

made some more changes (WT-en) Ano0810 19:30, 4 June 2011 (EDT)ano0810

I saw. I regret that I have to delete your listing for violating the criteria on tour listings that I linked for you above. You are offering a non-specific tour listing that in no way indicates how an independent traveler can't do it by him-/herself. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:32, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

There is another listing in the same section. Could you throw some light on how that follows the rules laid down the wiki? Thnx(WT-en) Ano0810 19:59, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

If you think a listing is against the rules, Project:Plunge forward and delete it yourself, giving your reason in your editing "Summary". I think you mean the "AC Volvo" listing, which is a bit confusing, so I don't know whether to delete it or not. You probably know better whether it's merely informational or really promotional. But that said, if it's really just a listing for a bus trip, not a tour agency, it's probably fine. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 20:05, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

Edit Summaries

Quick note in case you weren't aware of this before, but when you are entering text in edit summaries, if you use wiki link formats instead of full URLs, the link will be clickable from the recent changes and history pages. For example, instead of:

Hard revert. Edit to eliminate 1st-person language and repost. http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:First_person_pronouns

...in which case the URL shows up in the edit summary as plain text, you can write:

Hard revert. Edit to eliminate 1st-person language and repost. Project:First person pronouns

...in which case the URL will be a clickable link in the edit summary. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:15, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks, Ryan. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 18:04, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

Patrolling

Thanks for helping patrolling, but please remember to mark as patrolled, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 17:39, 18 April 2011 (EDT)

I don't mark articles as patrolled if instead of just patrolling them, I edit them. Are you suggesting that I marked them as patrolled in such instances? If so, please explain. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:01, 19 April 2011 (EDT)

I may not understand the purpose of marking a revision as "patrolled." I have been operating on the basis that doing so means that I approve of the edit. What does it actually mean? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:43, 19 April 2011 (EDT)

It means that you either approve of the edit or have fixed the part of the edit that you do not approve. So clicken 'mark as patrolled' tells the rest of us that we do not need to check the edit because you have done it already, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 07:41, 19 April 2011 (EDT)

I see. Thanks for explaining. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 10:44, 19 April 2011 (EDT)

Once again, thanks for patrolling. One hint: I see you patrol one edit at a time, which of course is ok, but if you would like to patrol all recent changes to one artilce in one move, you can go to Prefences > Recent changes, and click 'Enhanced recent changes (JavaScript)', regards, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 05:28, 25 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks. I'll try that and see how it works. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:34, 25 April 2011 (EDT)

It really will make a difference. When I first discovered that feature it was like a whole new world of Wikivoyage efficiency :). --(WT-en) Burmesedays 06:23, 25 April 2011 (EDT)

Forex

Hi! I have seen your comment on vfd concerning Forex. Felix is not an admin, so when he sees spam he needs to label with vfd so an admin sees it and hits the delete button. (WT-en) jan 04:33, 29 April 2011 (EDT)

Thanks. I understand. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 14:44, 29 April 2011 (EDT)

Pure Lotus Edits - Yangshuo China

You asked about my edits on the above page. The reason that I am changing the Pure lotus listing is simple. It is wrong. I am a freelance travel writer on commission for a large US publisher. I am writing this from Yangshuo. In order to update the current edition info of the book that I am working on that includes Pure Lotus, I went to the restaurant myself. I confronted both the manager Xiao Dai, and the owner Malcom The, about the criticisms on the wikivoyage page, and both assured me that they are unfounded. Perhaps you have some extra information that I do not know about? I am not sure who wrote the original piece but it seems unfair that one person's opinion, offering no additional explanation should be acceptable as a wikivoyage listing. Sbouldn't wikivoyage be based on facts rather than personal opinions? Isn't that what Tripadvisor is for? I hope that this explains my edits. Chris

No, I don't have more information. All you had to do was explain why you're making the edits, which you now have done. You should be able to understand that we have quite a lot of touters and self-interested people here who would make the kind of edits you made without comment for commercial reasons, and not in the interest of accuracy. So we can't just assume there's a good reason for the kind of edit you made.

As for the question you ask about facts vs. opinions: Wikivoyage shouldn't be a purveyor of false information, but it is not supposed to be objective. The policy is summed up here: Project:Be fair

Thanks for explaining things, and please keep contributing but explain in the editing Summary why you're making any non-obvious changes.

All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:31, 9 May 2011 (EDT)

Apology

It looks like an inadvertent reversion caused me to repost some graffiti on May 2, 2011 in the Hinchinbrook Island guide. Sorry about that. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:51, 15 May 2011 (EDT)

Komodo National Park

Hi there. Just out of courtesy I want to let you know that I have reverted your deletion here [1], as this is the correct article for that operator (who is a good one). I realise why you deleted it as the user inserted it into the region and sub-region articles as well, but I think it ought to stay in the correct article. Cheers --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:28, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the courtesy, and for your knowledgeable second opinion. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:36, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

NYC pizza

Thanks for offering the local perspective on that John's Pizzeria listing I added. I'm not familiar with the NYC pizza scene, but after watching this Daily Show clip I figured I'd better make sure these places were at least mentioned on Wikivoyage. ;) (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 19:43, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

That was a hilarious segment! And you are making good additions, which are much appreciated. I wouldn't recommend that location of John's, but it is extremely popular, though mostly with tourists. We New Yorkers usually spend as little time as possible at Times Square, nowadays. :-) All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:50, 4 June 2011 (EDT)

Whoa, that video was legendary! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 12:46, 7 June 2011 (EDT)

As requested

Here you go :) Wikivoyage_talk:User_ban_nominations#User_talk:Xiali1208. Cheers. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:27, 11 June 2011 (EDT)

DOM

Hi there (with apologies for a cut and paste message). I am trying to muster up some interest again in the now almost moribund Destination of the Month feature. This used to be one of our more dynamic initiatives with lots of debate. Sadly, that is no longer the case. I have made some new nominations to try to get it going again. If you have a moment please pop over there. And some nominations would be good if you can think of any! Thanks. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:22, 9 July 2011 (EDT)

Wadi Rum

Hello Ikan Kekek,

Thank you to take care of wikivoyage pages.

You ask if Jordantracks is an abusive company. We also remark that people are making a lot of changes in the page, adding and deleting informations about us and about others. The final result appears that Jordantracks can't be mention in the same way than the others and is always the one removed. Could you please help for this page as it would be good that everyone have the chance to appear in the same way.

Kind regards,

Saleem

Hi, Saleem, and thanks for contacting me. Are you representing Jordantracks? I would suggest that you post to the "Talk" page of the Wadi Rum guide if you believe you are being unfairly treated, rather than that you or someone else presumably representing Jordantracks has made abusive edits. Because what I observe is that you or someone else was posting up to 4 separate entries for Jordantracks and deleting competitors' information. I already made clear what was wrong here - [[2]] - among other places. There is also a very firm policy against business owners (managers, etc.) deleting competitors' listings, but it should be so obvious that's wrong, and at least looks and smells so much like bad faith, that I don't feel I need to link to the policy.

If you want to post an entry for your agency, do so, do it once, don't tout or use 1st-person language, and don't delete or edit any other agency's listing.

Sincerely,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:39, 13 July 2011 (EDT)

PS: It's customary to sign posts in "Talk" pages - though not guides - by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) in a row at the end of one's post.

Koh Tao

Hello Ikan Kekek,

thank you for pointing out that there should be only one business listing, but as you might know diving and freediving are quite different and its not about having Alvaro Diving listed twice, but to have a listing in the right category. Since there is a "diving" and a separate "freediving" section Alvaro Diving belongs in both of them, otherwise you will find only one company in the freediving section and the other one somewhere hidden amongst the dive shops. do you have any suggestions on how to deal with the category listings other then deleting Alvaro Diving all the time?? Regards, Andreas

Sure, Andreas, and thanks for asking. Pick which type of diving you want to emphasize more, put the listing in that section, and indicate in your listing that you offer the other activity, too. That will enable you to put the information out there, and I believe it's probably the only solution that conforms to Wikivoyage's listing policy.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:01, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Trolls

Hi! Currently there are some trolls that delete and move articles a lot. There is not need to argue with them as they vandalise. Please immediately block them and delete their created mess. Thank you, (WT-en) jan 04:08, 4 August 2011 (EDT)

Please point out instances of this happening. I am here only part of the time and don't see everything that happens.

That said, I probably wouldn't block a user right away unless they were an obvious spambot. We all need to deal with a certain degree of frustration and use some measure of restraint. Some users start out disruptively but improve greatly. I've certainly seen that with some users who used to be seemingly inveterate touters.

All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:15, 4 August 2011 (EDT)

Shared

I am just checking, do you have an account on Wikivoyage Shared? If yes, you may, if you like, become an administrator there, which are privileges automatically given to admins from other language versions that want them. If not, I suppose you might prefer to first become acquainted with the policies and procedures over there ;) --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:20, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

Hi, Peter. No, I don't have an account there. So I'm definitely not ready to become an administrator there at this time. :-) All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:54, 11 August 2011 (EDT)

Kudos

Barnstar

I realise that lately you are often plying a lone battle with edit patrolling. Much of that is due to other regular patrollers being so frustrated by the slowness of the site. Huge kudos to you for carrying on with this against the odds. You certainly deserve one of these. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 07:11, 26 August 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for the appreciation, Burmesedays. I, too, am frustrated by the slowness of the site.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:02, 26 August 2011 (EDT)

Libya

Hi Ikan, I can understand your confusion. The shallow and sketchy reporting on Libya by the worlds media is not particularly informing, not in an way that is reality based anyway. There seems to be a determined move to legitimise the NTC by NATO allied governments and their media services but even the National Transitional Council do not claim to have formed a government. Indeed they recently again suspended plans to do so. They are subject to considerable internal divisions and conflict and occasionally bump each other off. Some qualified commentators consider that the place is going to go downhill even further and I will not be surprised if this odd assemblage of provocateurs, traitors and defectors from the original government, various ex-muǧāhidūn and so-called al-Qaeda elements don't go even more feral soon and start shooting at each other now that they are apparently running out members of the Libyan armed forces, Gaddafi supporters and angry residents to blaze away at. It would be naive to expect any democratic form of governance to emerge in Libya in the foreseeable future. As for the NTC, Mahmoud Jibril recently announced he is quitting. "We have moved into a political struggle with no boundaries," ... "The political struggle requires finances, organization, arms and ideologies,".... "I am afraid I don't have any of this." Indeed what the western press avoids reporting is that many of these so called rebels are not even part of the NTC and are likely to become combative if the current controlling elements of the NTC try to exert power as a national governing body. Indeed even putting the NTC flag in the article is highly questionable. The African Union certainly had a lot of difficulty in recognising these people as a legitimate authority in Libya. It must not be overlooked that Libya is flooded with a lot of fools carrying weapons and a lot of them have become accustomed to making their point of view understood by shooting at those who disagree with them. Indeed any detailed analysis of the situation in Libya will reveal a picture almost diametrically opposed to that presented in the western media. It has every chance of turning into a madhouse of quasi corporate governance mixed up with combative and competing private militias and extremist groups squabbling, maneuvering assassinating and shooting at each other. Libya is now a very unstable, fractured nation with a seriously damaged infrastructure from the NATO aerial campaign and ground based conflicts and no established civil governance. Libya is most certainly not a stable and suitable destination for a traveller and is unlikely to be so for some time. I think the Libyan articles are going to be subject to ongoing manipulation and posturing by self effected propagandists for some time. Lets just try and steer it toward the interests of the traveller whenever this sort of recent editing occurs. The warningbox needs some subtle rewriting to accommodate the most recent events and the possible cessation of air and missile strikes. -- cheers --(WT-en) felix 06:31, 22 October 2011 (EDT)

I certainly agree with you - the traveller comes first, propaganda be damned. Thanks for all you do, felix. You are an indefatigable editor! All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 20:31, 22 October 2011 (EDT)

Thanks

Hi Ikan,

im suprised that most of articles are lacking info, i got my info through wikipedia as noticed most of the articles have used information from wikipedia. is that ok?. Sorry im new at this--(WT-en) Anthrogex11 14:41, 10 November 2011 (EST)

Hi. Have a look here: Project:Cooperating with Wikipedia. I think this is probably the key point:

"Wikipedia and Wikivoyage have compatible licensing, and it is technically possible to share content between the two provided the license requirements are followed; in general this entails providing attribution indicating the source from which the content was taken using the Wikipedia attribution template.

However, think carefully before doing this, and discuss it with others. Wikipedia and Wikivoyage have distinct goals, and forking large amounts of content from one project to the other creates wasteful duplication, and can actually stifle the development of creative, original content. In most cases, linking from one to the other would be a better choice.

As a rule, any significant copy-pasting of Wikipedia text to Wikivoyage is not permitted, while borrowing the odd single turn of phrase when your writers' brain is stalling is allowed."

So basically, what I'd say is don't copy and paste to any large extent, but taking travel-related information from Wikipedia and paraphrasing it is fine.

You might also want to run this by folks at the Travellers' Pub. I haven't been an administrator on this site very long, and others have much more experience with this kind of issue.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 21:45, 10 November 2011 (EST)

Hi Ikan, sorry I'm new to writing for Wikis. All my work seems to have gone. I can find it in older versions, but can't understand what's going on. I see you made a comment. Was it rolled back? I tried to edit it to remove the first person as much as I could, but in some cases not possible. Thanks.

Who is this and what article is this in reference to? Please sign your posts on "Talk" pages by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) in a row before pressing "Enter." But in any case, please explain enough of what you're talking about that I can understand what happened and where. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:18, 12 November 2011 (EST)

OK, I see from the History that you are Gautam Khanna, but when I click on your contributions, your edit of the Changsha article is the current version. It looks like none of your edits were reverted (deleted), and the only edit I made was to change "defend" to "defended."

In looking through your helpful contributions to the article, the only problem I'm seeing is the use of first-person language, which is not part of the style of this site. So please read Project:First person pronouns and Project:Tone. When you have time, you can also look at Project:Manual of style. In any case, your 1st-person language and accounts will eventually be deleted or edited by someone, but you posted a lot of good content, and I thank you for that. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:25, 12 November 2011 (EST)

Mandarmani hijackers-the Bengal cowboys

Hi Ikan, regarding that recent MB Resorts edit...

Here are some of the other appearances of the contact number from that listing you just reverted due to the excessive Capitalisations. I thought I recognised the number and so I checked in my brief notes on the articles and other web listings relating to the Bengal area that have the sticky finger markings of these characters all over them

• Bakkhali Hotel Amarabati 8100291011
• Mandarmani / Tajpu 91 33 8100291011 from Hotel Sonarbangla Resorts
• Digha‎ Hotel Dolphin 8100291011
• Digha‎ Rojana Beach 91 33 8100291011

The URL hotelinmandarmani.in is just a bait job as well.

I think it is reasonable to assume that (WT-en) M.B.Resorts is not playing the game straight. I have looked him over and this single edit has been the only activity with that account so far. Seeing as Mr Ryan likes to deal with these nefarious sorts of things I will leave him a note to have a look at this message here, I assume he might like to spam block the URL and that tel number, though I thought that number had already been dealt with when I raised it months ago after doing those serious sweep outs of the Bengali articles. I do not have the necessary buttons myself so I cannot send him to the bottom of the sea to visit the sea shells.-- (WT-en) felix 07:14, 15 November 2011 (EST)

There are a lot of these kinds of spammers/scammers. And thanks for being so vigilant and for tirelessly detouting and reformatting so many articles - you are a gem! (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:10, 18 November 2011 (EST)

IATA

Hi Ikan - I restored the IATA article that you speedy deleted to put it through the normal VFD process. While it's something that will almost certainly be deleted, it looks like it was created in good faith and there were three articles that linked to that subject, so using the normal VFD process seems like the right approach. Please understand that I don't think you did anything wrong - I just think this is (barley) enough of a borderline case that it makes sense to follow the normal procedure for deletion. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:25, 18 November 2011 (EST)

Thanks for the heads-up. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 13:08, 18 November 2011 (EST)

liked your descriptive welcome messages..

like your welcome message to new users so much better than the standard one.. --(WT-en) Inas 02:06, 28 November 2011 (EST)

Thanks. I liked one you posted recently. Glad I was able to inspire you! (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:58, 28 November 2011 (EST)

El Salvador

Hi Ikan. I'm a Brazilian user, and mostly act on the Portuguese version of Wikivoyage, but stay alert in English as well, I've come to love and support the Wiktravel standards and format. Maybe you should check out the recent edits about El Salvador, one user who's most likely a publicist for the Tortuga Verde resort did a lot of entries that smell of toutism. Perhaps I'm a little high strung about it then I decided it's best to ask expert advice about it. Let's keep Wikivoyage up where it deserves! All the best. 189.6.38.148 18:50, 9 December 2011 (EST)

Hello. I have been looking at those entries and made some conservative edits. I am troubled by the spamming of the same information to several guides, as well as the listing a single resort in more than one place, which is forbidden, and which you were completely right to revert. Thank you for your help, and I hope you stick around and continue to help us patrol those articles.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:04, 9 December 2011 (EST)

Bucharest

Hi, i just edited the bucharest hostels list, i added my hostel and removed 2 other hostels that have been closed 2 years ago, namely east hostel and vila helga. I noticed you reverted the edits. I would like then to just add my hostel, and leave the other 2 there , even if they dont exit. Could i do that? Thanks 89.122.73.175

Hi. I just added your IP to keep things straight. It's customary to sign your name in "Talk" pages by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) in a row before pressing "Enter," and it's also customary to start a new section at the bottom of the page.

All that aside, it sounds like your edits were totally valid; all you needed to do was explain them in an edit summary before you did them. Go ahead and put up your listing, but avoid first person, and redelete the listings for the closed hostels. Indicate in your edit summary "added listing, deleting listings for closed hostels."

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:21, 19 December 2011 (EST)

Nevermind; I deleted those listings. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:22, 19 December 2011 (EST)

Vang Vieng

Hi Ikan, Run your eyes over this group of edits, I would appreciate your POV. http://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Vang_Vieng&diff=1801589&oldid=1799657 -- (WT-en) felix 14:59, 20 December 2011 (EST)

Hi, Felix. The thing that jumps out at me is the allegations about the police. But I have no personal knowledge about the behavior of the police in Vang Vieng, so I'm in no position to offer an opinion. Otherwise, "Politically incorrect jokes are a must" is a strange thing to put in a "Sleep" listing but nothing I care all that much about.

What jumps out at you?

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:29, 20 December 2011 (EST)

I feel prety much the same I guess. I was going to leave it as was but thought it might be good to get a second opinion as it is a bit odd. I also have no direct knowledge regarding the local plods. I guess it would not be a worlds first instance if there was some local funny business going on. I will just leave it I reckon. Sounds like eating rice porridge there has a few worrying issues, I will bear that in mind if I am there and feel a bit hungry for some bubur. It also seems that the guy he is most disturbed about works for the immigration services anyway, and not the police. I think it is the tourists that would have me more worried than the police in Vang Vieng, the place seems a bit unhinged. -- hope you are keeping well... oh BTY I did a little tidy up on Pedasi and did a listing edit on the apartment listing on the discussion page. --cheers - (WT-en) felix 16:49, 20 December 2011 (EST)

Yes, I saw that. Thank you.

If you have a chance, I'd also like some help with M'Hamid. I posted for help in the Travellers' Guide, but hardly anyone seems to be reading that, lately. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:55, 20 December 2011 (EST)

• I have gone through the listing of camel and 4x4 tours and made some suggestions on the Discussion page. I think we might need to do a bit of a spring cleaning there. I think you would be quite justified in making some bold changes. I am uncertain about the listings as a whole, I guess as it seems to be such a feature of that town then it deserves such a dominating section in the article. The section stands out as the article is otherwise quite undeveloped, makes it lok a bit like a listing venue fo various camel and 4x4 trek operators, some of which should probably be cleaned out per general WT guidelines. Have a look over my Remove/Retain comments and if you agree then I think we should just do it. Certainly I would support you in that action.-- (WT-en) felix 08:03, 21 December 2011 (EST)

Pisa article. "If these are really sights, they should be moved back to "See," but if they were "mythic" educational institutions, they would be imaginary!". Quite right to move them as you did, I was so amused by the mythic educational institutions" I could not bring myself to do it. Leaning towers and mythic educational institutions have a certain symbiosis when appraised in the middle of the night. I guess really I should have fixed it up when I did the small tidy up there last night but the outbreak of serial walkingstreethostel edit reverts sort of distracted me. -- (WT-en) felix 08:03, 21 December 2011 (EST)

Manhattan

do i have a reason for removing my listing from manhattan? 59.182.173.177 04:16, 7 January 2012 (EST)tarasnake

What listing? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:21, 7 January 2012 (EST)

[[3]]

I have seen your discussion on Jjtk talk page. Only as an admin the rollback leads to automatic patrolling. All non-Admin user need to click seperate for patrolling. (WT-en) Jc8136 06:06, 16 January 2012 (EST)

I see. Thanks for explaining. I had forgotten that rollback is an administrative function and that non-administrators have to revert. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:31, 16 January 2012 (EST)

Commas

I'm not a big grammar person, but regarding this revert, "...Secretary of State, William H. Seward (1801-1872), who...", while the second comma might be OK, the first one is questionable. For example, you wouldn't write "action by President, Barack Obama, who...". In any case, not a big deal, but the English student in me wanted to defend my grammar knowledge :) -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:39, 20 January 2012 (EST)

You're right: I misread it to say "the Secretary of State, William H. Seward." I'll revert my edit. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:45, 20 January 2012 (EST)

Piatra Craiului National Park

Hi, I changed my remark about a EU founded road passing the house of the minister of tourism to a more neutral sentence myself. Knowing the corruption in Romania it does not seem to be a coincedence when she has a house there. Especially when driving on the road you wonder why they ever built it. At the other hand I only heard about this house from a local. I would like to make this statement only when the house is realy there and some more proof of corruption can be found. I would like to re-undo your action.

--(WT-en) Bfwelter 11:08, 20 January 2012 (EST)

Go right ahead. Thanks for the explanation.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:48, 20 January 2012 (EST)

[4]

It's all written in Turkish and lately we had a couple of turkish articles that don't belong here. Is it worth to keep or not? Regards, (WT-en) Jc8136 08:43, 24 January 2012 (EST)

Hi. I moved your post to a new section at the bottom of this talk page in order to be able to read it and reply. Someone deleted the Turkish-language article in question in the interim. Any new article in wikivoyage.org/wiki/en that's not written in English should be deleted, and any edits not in English should be reverted. There are Wikivoyage sites in other languages, where a Turkish-language article might be relevant, but I suspect this article was probably advertising spam.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:12, 25 January 2012 (EST)

Incidently, on top of being in Turkish, that article was a non-travel-related information page about the state of wind power generation in Turkey. (WT-en) texugo 00:27, 25 January 2012 (EST)

I assumed it was spam. I always assume anything article posted in a non-English language is spam, and that's been true with languages I understand, too. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:32, 25 January 2012 (EST)

Bangkok bicycle tours

I'm not sure why you have removed [5] all the bicycle tours in Bangkok? They are a value-added activity. Cycling on your own in Bangkok is virtually impossible, as it it is incredibly hazardous. A cycling trip would definitely need to be done in some kind of tour. --(WT-en) Globe-trotter 04:00, 25 January 2012 (EST)

In that case, the listings should be restored but have to be realphabetized and some have to be detouted. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:21, 25 January 2012 (EST)

La Paz

Hi Ikan K, sorry I only noticed your post on the pub page well after I put the comments on the La Paz discussion page. I had been watching it for a while and thought about trying to give you some support but backed away as I could not readily identify a way to assist. Plus our electricity is on and off so often now that it is like a disco light show. It is normally bad here but there is also a cyclone not to far away and things have going a bit crazy with trees going over and killing people and ships capsizing or threatening to do so from the ferocious waves. Accordingly our internet connection here comes on and off rather frequently. I hope my comments on the La Paz page do assist. It is certainly a difficult and sometimes vexing problem and this particular listing although it appears quite legitimate still bears some issues with our understanding of the prevailing policies. Even with tour guides, some of them may be highly qualified and have something literally unique to contribute to a travellers experience that is otherwise unavailable. Very hard for us to determine that, although sometimes the 'can the traveller do it on their own' aspect will assist with that one. I think you explained it al very well on the La Paz Talk page but equally I can understand the frustration and POV of the person wishing to list his friend who provides the tuition services, especially as she was listed previously without event. Cheers -- (WT-en) felix 13:13, 28 January 2012 (EST)

Felix: Be safe! And thanks, as always, for your thoughtful perspective. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 18:13, 28 January 2012 (EST)

Banaue tour guides

The two tour guides, one of them a driver, listed in the Do section seem to be in conflict with the general policies on listing tour guides. They do not seem to be doing anything that requires a permit or restricted areas access and do not appear to be taking anyone to a place that they could not go to themselves. I do not though that one of them is described as providing "regular treks in the Northern Luzon, but also some extreme activities". this is not really defined very clearly though. He is described as "accredited" but it is not explained by who he is 'accredited' or what it is that he is accredited to do. I think I would be inclined to delete them both, or move them to the Talk page and leave them there for discussion.-- (WT-en) felix 13:22, 28 January 2012 (EST)

Email

I was hoping I could include you in an ongoing discussion group for WT admins, to which I realized you are not subscribed. If you'd like to join in, please email me, and I will send the Google Groups invite to the email of your choosing. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 16:49, 9 February 2012 (EST)

It looks like I can't email you unless I want to make my email address visible to all users here. If you can see a way around that, please let me know. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:10, 10 February 2012 (EST)

I guess the best way would be to enable it, send me an email, and then disable it. By the way, enabling email won't actually make your email visible to the internet. It just makes it possible to send you an email (and, of course, if you reply to that, your email will be made clear to the recipient). --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:22, 10 February 2012 (EST)

Imams

Thanks for fixing that typo, I think my eyes need testing. -- (WT-en) felix 08:48, 23 February 2012 (EST)

You do a great job, and it's easy to miss things like that. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 15:02, 23 February 2012 (EST)

Personal Talk Page Edits

Hello Ivan,

After I edited my talk page recently, you reverted it with a note stating: "You are not allowed to remove content from your user talk page". I believe this may be in error. The closest policy I can find is: "In general, conversations aren't deleted from talk pages but are instead archived when they are old or no longer relevant. To archive discussions simply create a new page such as User talk:Mypage/Archive and copy the old discussions to it."

If I'm in error, please direct me to the appropriate policy. Thanks!

In the mean time, I have gone ahead and moved it to an archive page as discussed in the policy.

My name isn't Ivan, first of all. But archiving is not the same as deleting. Every talk page is a record of discussions, and can't just be deleted unilaterally. There is a Votes for deletion procedure for proposed deletions of pages that aren't completely obvious candidates for speedy deletion. And I'm unconvinced the content you deleted is no longer relevant. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 22:54, 26 February 2012 (EST)

So your argument is that discussion that's less than a month old is "old or no longer relevant"? Very weak argument. I disagree. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:22, 26 February 2012 (EST)

Lima regional listings

Hi IK, good spotting. I did not even notice the listings were out of place, indeed I think I probably just went there to patrol an edit and got caught up in a little tidy up while I was there but did not pay any attention to the relative hierarchical status of the article. Those listings should be moved out but I do not know the area well enough to confidently move any listings into the correct sub-articles. BTY have a look over La Paz and make sure that you approve. I came in after the listing was restored and did a mild article-wide tidy up and left a welcome note on the contributors Talk page thanking them for their efforts as I noticed that neither of us had done that. I assume you are comfortable with the outcome. I will try and keep an eye on that article as well following the recent changes to those language schools. --Salam ke mr ikan-- (WT-en) felix 05:00, 3 March 2012 (EST).

I'm not familiar with Lima, either. I'll have a look at the La Paz article within a couple of days.

Yang ikhlas,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:34, 3 March 2012 (EST)

Trolls

On the off chance that you haven't heard the "please do not feed the trolls" mantra that is standard on wikis, it's generally best to pay vandals as little attention as possible. User talk page messages such as this one are often just enough to let them know that they've gotten under someone's skin, and may be enough to encourage them to continue. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 19:07, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

I hear you. I posted that as a record, so that we can remember to block the user for a longer amount of time next time, but I can do that in a matter-of-fact way next time or just post nothing. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:56, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

You'll see any previous blocks if you go to re-block a user (for example), even after the blocks have expired. Makes it easy to avoid other acknowledgement. -- (WT-en) D. Guillaime 21:01, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

I didn't realize that. Thanks for letting me know. I will act accordingly. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 21:27, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for clarifying - I figured there was a reason for the talk page posting, but wanted to note the "do not feed" advice just in case. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:22, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

I'm glad you did. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:05, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

Nuweiba posting

Hi Ikan, saw you removed an external link to www.nuweibabeach.com Instead of deleting a useful link, you could have moved it/made sure it was in the right format? There is hardly any info on Nuweiba and what is on Wikivoyage is extremely outdated, so I thought the above mentioned link might be useful to the audience of Wikivoyage. But if you think Wikivoyage is better off without useful info, that's okay for me too. Regards, Ali

Nuweiba posting

Hi Ilkan, saw you removed an external link to www.nuweibabeach.com Instead of deleting a useful link, you could have moved it/made sure it was in the right format? There is hardly any info on Nuweiba and what is on Wikivoyage is extremely outdated, so I thought the above mentioned link might be useful to the audience of Wikivoyage. But if you think Wikivoyage is better off without useful info, that's okay for me too. Regards, Ali

Hi, Ali. As I wrote in my editing summary, which you can see at [6], portals cannot be linked on Wikivoyage, per the policy detailed at this link: xl, and specifically Project:External links#What not to link to. If you would like to suggest changes to that policy, the place to have that discussion is at Project:External links. I don't think a suggestion to change the external links policy would be successful, however, because information portals are competitors with this guide, and I won't even bring up likely responses to any suggestion of allowing listings of hotel reservation or ticket purchasing portals - but again, discuss them in that talk page if you feel strongly, because that's the place where decisions can be made. Under current guidelines, it simply is not possible to list a portal. However, useful, relevant, and non-touty information on that portal can be summarized or paraphrased and put into the Nuweiba article.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 19:35, 13 April 2012 (EDT)

Last Vientiane Revert

The reference to iSpot was intended to supplement the wikivoyageers to Vientiane as it is a free information center. It is not a Tour Agency or Operator. If not on grounds of Tour, what would be the nature of the revert? Thanks!

Hi. Those were the grounds. If it's really not selling anything, it's probably fine to list it, but you'll get more visibility for the discussion of why it's OK if you post a message on Talk:Vientiane. And when you do, please sign it by typing 4 tildes (the "`" key) in a row.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:36, 20 April 2012 (EDT)

I may have been too hasty in my last post. xl should be looked at, too. Post to Talk:Vientiane, and let's discuss it. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:49, 20 April 2012 (EDT)

Thanks, will do

User:Mytourorganizer

I removed the permanent block on this account as it doesn't look like a bot to me - there weren't any URLs on the user page, and the edits weren't done immediately after user registration, which are both usually good "tells" for a bot. However, a temp block might be warranted if the user continues to upload advertising logos and put tour advertising on the user page. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:59, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

OK, let's see. But I think this user will be a continual problem. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:15, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Feel free to use shorter term blocks if that's the case - my only concern is that infinite blocks are a fairly harsh measure, and are only meant to be used in rare cases, such as when there isn't a real user operating the account. On a related note, thanks yet again for all of your patrolling - you have far more tolerance for reviewing edits than I do! -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:04, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Certainly. And I do understand that, given any doubt, it is best not to block an account permanently. So I appreciate your decision. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 14:27, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

Car rental provider listing

Hi Ikan, We are a car rental service providers, we are not typical aggregators. We take care of end to end car rental service in 75+ cities in India to make tourist's journey easy and convenient,We own the customers (We provide the service; if any issue customer can directly contact us)hence I am not violating any rules.Look forward to hearing from you. Thank you. - Unsigned Nehapb

Dear Nehapb:

I hope you don't mind that I took the liberty of creating a new section at the bottom of this page and moving your post there, for the sake of easier reading.

This is from the FAQ on your website:

"What is taxiGUIDE.in?

taxiGUIDE.in is an online car rental booking service currently available across 75 cities in India. Our service enables customers to search for car rental/hire options in terms of operators, vehicle type, price points and then make an online reservation by making an advance payment."

"Why can’t I book from an operator directly?

Your favourite operator in your home city may or may not have operations in other cities. By using taxiGUIDE.in, you get access to a cross section of operators across cities, vehicles and prices giving you the freedom of choice."

Whether you are a typical booking service or not, I cannot judge, but you are very clearly and avowedly a booking service, and because of that, you may not be linked or have listings on this site. If you would like to argue that Wikivoyage's policy on booking services ill serves travellers in some way and should be changed, you are welcome to go to Project:External links and start a new thread at the bottom of the page. If you do, please sign your post, as is customary on talk pages, by typing the tilde key (~) 4 times in a row before pressing "Enter" at the end of your post. A discussion might be good for the site, so I would encourage you to set forth your arguments there.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:17, 7 May 2012 (EDT)

Thank You.

Utrecht Free Tours

Hi, just wanted to let you know I just found out I was the second person trying to add the Utrecht Free Tours to wikivoyage. I just red the guidelines on activity listings and will try to write something that complies to it. We are definately offering an experience that adds somethings to visiting Utrecht, and we are 100% non profit (even the tips are used to invest in a better tour). I will try so suggest that it is nice to take a free tour in Utrecht without referring to OUR free tour. IF that is not right, please help me in finding out what IS right and what is the difference between the Utrecht Free Tour and the Riga Free Tour [7] thnx, Jasper

Hi, Jasper. Your proposed edit sounds fine to me, as long as it's a comment and not an entry, but it's possible some other volunteer editors may not agree, in which case it would be best to discuss this in Talk:Utrecht. The Riga listing shouldn't be there, either, but please understand that these kinds of edits are often put back just as quickly as they are removed, so at any particular time, you may see a listing that shouldn't be there. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:38, 7 May 2012 (EDT)

(WT-en) Anand Ashram

Hi Ikan, I am very unconvinced concerning this content introduced into the Bali article. I have edited the recent reinstatement of the content however I note it was previously removed by Ryan (due to touting) and has returned, still with a touty emphasis. I have not seen the publication so it is difficult to assess the appropriateness of the content in a travellers context. I have left a note on Ryan's talk page as well as yours as he has been involved in corrective edits to Anand Ashram related content. I am also a little curious about (WT-en) Adisucipta and obviously the new contributions in the reading section of the Bali article raises the question of who (WT-en) Adisucipta and (WT-en) Anand Ashram are, and if indeed they are the same contributor. We have both left a note on Anand Ashram's talk page, doesn't seem to have had much effect though. I have also recently been editing Anand Ashram content in the Jakarta, Ubud and Bogor articles. -- (WT-en) felix 08:20, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

That edit caught my eye, too. Since I don't know the book, I took no action. Your edits are good. I would observe that it's because of these kinds of sometimes self-serving edits that listing suggested reading material can become a problem. It may become most appropriate to delete the entire section, though I don't yet recommend that "throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater" action. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:18, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

Followup: Look at Wrh2's latest editing summary: [8] (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:20, 9 May 2012 (EDT)\

Appropriate action by Wrh2 I think and it has my full support, that contributor/s is rather active in a 'promotional' sense at present, I hope they calm down soon. --cheers-- (WT-en) felix 22:37, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

"Free, but donations are accepted" whoops, thanks for spotting that, I only just noticed your corrective edit. -- (WT-en) felix 23:58, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

Can Tho

Regarding your help with the Can Tho page. We appreciate your help in regards to making us aware about links and the site policies as well as help on other parts. In regards to content, could we use the discussion page though? It would be nice, if you do not delete the content about free student tours. We are working on the site as part of a student project and constantly add content at the moment. It would be great, if you could help with improving the text itself as well. We are all non-native English speakers and would be happy if someone can contribute here as well. For the moment we would like to keep the tours inside. If you have any deeper concerns, could you please discuss with us on the talk page? Thank you -(WT-en) Mario

Hi, Mario. I appreciate the content you're putting up, and I will certainly have a look from time to time and see if any of it needs editing. However, I cannot control what other volunteer editors do, and the precedent has been that listings for tours, regardless of whether they're free or not, are reverted in every article where they are placed, in view of the tour policy. If you would like to argue for more exceptions to the restrictions on listing tours, I would recommend that you post your argument in Project:Activity listings. However, before you do that, I would suggest that you read this particular discussion a bit: [9]

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:00, 10 May 2012 (EDT)

Hello Ikan Keke,

I understand the guideline and I agree: Tours should offer something as a supplement, rather than a replacement for Wikivoyage guides. They should count as an activity available at a destination.

The particularity of the student tours are that they give people the chance to meet locals in their environment and apart from the usual tourist paths - Wikivoyage could not offer that and other tours do not offer this here. Visitors have the chance to meet English speaking locals, something not so easy here normally. As written in the explanation, visitors will also have the chance to get info about current developments, that would not be possible to cover in in Wikivoyage or other guides. Additionally, the tour allows people to access places with the guides, that are not usually available to tourists, e.g. manufacture area of tailors or a meet up with monks. We should probably clarify this in the description.

Thank you for your support and help to understand the working of the site better.

(WT-en) Mario 02:34, 10 May 2012 (EDT)

Again, I think you should be discussing the policy on tours at Project:Activity listings, because the same argument could be made for free tours in any other place, yet current practice is to revert (delete) such listings. If policy is to be changed, the change will have to be site-wide. I do see where you're going, though: If you can show that your particular tour adds so much value that it's unusual, that might engender a different reaction, even without a site-wide change of policy. It might be advisable to discuss that in Talk:Can Tho, though, in order to involve more people and reach a consensus. Sorry to sound so bureaucratic. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:34, 10 May 2012 (EDT)

Re:Welcome

Thanks for the welcome, Ikan! Hopefully I'll be able to make some valuable contributions around here. I noticed on your talk page you want to visit some cities with amazing mosques. May I recommend Dhaka? Haha, I may be biased, but Wikipedia does give it the title of the "City of Mosques". Enjoy your travels! (WT-en) JamesA ^>talk 05:09, 14 May 2012 (EDT)

Thanks, James. Yeah, Dhaka could be an interesting place to visit. So many places to go, so little time! :-) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 06:07, 14 May 2012 (EDT)

Mogadishu

I'm admittedly not a grammar person, but your revert in the Mogadishu article seems to be reverting three changes that look correct to me. Since I was the one who marked that edit as patrolled, please let me know if I missed something. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 19:29, 24 May 2012 (EDT)

I think I was experiencing some technical glitches on Wikivoyage earlier. I know there was another article in which I deleted spam links, and the "edit" view showed that they were gone, but even after I cleared my cache, the regular view was showing all the links I had deleted. So I will try to fix the two obvious errors. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:49, 25 May 2012 (EDT)

Thanks! As noted, I'm not much with the words, but that edit struck me as being OK so I appreciate the confirmation. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 10:55, 25 May 2012 (EDT)

Page move vandalism

As an FYI since your edit comment indicated you had questions about fixing page moves, if you ever have to remove page move vandalism, go to the Move Log and there is an "undo" button next to each entry. Note that if a page is moved multiple times (A → B → C) then you need to "undo" the move in the reverse order (C → B → A). -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 10:55, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

Thanks, Ryan. All the best, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:29, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

Too many Ikan

So that would be an unrequired school of fish someone has called up from the depths :)

Might call for a speargun to cull out the bottom feeders and assorted miscreants.

I have voiced my support for an editing lock down, hope it assists to strengthen your own comments and advice. cheers--(WT-en) felix 22:45, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

Thanks, Felix. Seekor ikan cukuplah. :-) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:02, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

Benar, terlalu banyak ikan nakal, aku harapan semoga sukses mancing -- (WT-en) felix 23:22, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

Terima kasih, Felix. Sedaplah makan ikan... :-) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:07, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

Delete JamesA/Bangladesh

Hey Ivan. Could you please delete JamesA/Bangladesh? I've moved it into my userspace, after accidentally creating it in the mainspace. Thanks. (WT-en) JamesA ^>talk 10:15, 16 June 2012 (EDT)

Hi, James. My name isn't Ivan. :-) I'll poke around your user page and see if I understand things clearly. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:55, 16 June 2012 (EDT)

Someone already put in a redirect. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:56, 16 June 2012 (EDT)

Apologies for calling you a Malaysian fish (and mispelling it with a "v")! Yes, it was automatically turned into a redirect when I moved it, but wasn't sure if redirects from the mainspace to the userspace were appropriate. If there's no issue, it can be left as-is. Thanks, (WT-en) JamesA ^>talk 03:14, 17 June 2012 (EDT)

Ikan Kekek is a Malaysian fish, so no issue there. :-) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:59, 17 June 2012 (EDT)

Mythinkhouse- Arusha Wiki Travel Edit questions

First of all thank you for your time. I originally had some posts taken down by you on June 15th I think. It was my first time posting so could see my mistakes based on your feedback which I appreciated.

Today I posted again for my restaurant (Mexican Cafe) in a manner that I thought was very acceptable. But I do not see it? Wondering if you had any feedback.

I also have a night club that I added into the "Drink" section of the page. I believe I can see where you took down this post in my history. It looks like it was replacing another location. The reason I replaced that location was because that club no longer exists in the city.

Please let me know any feed back so I can get it right. I don't want my account to be blocked.

Again the restaurant I felt was perfectly fine but don't see it listed. Feeback?

The Club AQ I see you said not to take down another location, but the one I did no longer exists.

Thank you in advance!

Patrick

Hi, Patrick. Have read through don't tout? My editing summary for my latest reversion of your edits was as follows:

"Deleted per don't tout, etc. One listing only - no other mention - and never substitute your listing for another's."

Is that unclear? You can post a single listing for a business; you cannot mention it anywhere else. Had that been your first edit, I might have tried fixing it myself, but I want you to read and understand don't tout, and I don't think you've read it yet. Read it, and if you still have questions afterwards, ask.

As for a place that no longer exists, yes, of course you can delete such a listing and should, but make sure to write "closed" - or something similar - in your editing summary that makes it clear why you deleted or overwrote a listing. Unexplained deletions are typically reverted. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:45, 27 June 2012 (EDT)

Hallmark Greetings

It's been about three weeks since I've gone to Special:RecentChanges and seen "Ikan Kekek" in the listings. With any luck you've been able to fulfill your plans of returning to Indonesia or are otherwise engaged in fun activities, and hopefully we'll see you again soon around these parts, or at the new site (if/when that happens). -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 23:13, 24 July 2012 (EDT)

Sure. The trip to Indonesia didn't happen this summer, but I'm just back from almost a month total in California and Hawaii, a truly marvelous trip! Thanks for thinking of me, and best wishes to you! Aloha, (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 16:31, 28 July 2012 (EDT)

Welcome home, and good to hear you had a nice trip away--(WT-en) felix 19:23, 29 July 2012 (EDT)

Block ID #10618

Hi Ikan,

One of my IPs was blocked for editing due to "Spambot" reason (no idea why, but I am certainly not a Spambot =)). Could you do the unblocking for me? The Block ID is #10618.

Best regards, --(WT-en) Edsonaoki 03:27, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

Hi. I've just read up on this. Apparently, you and Jnich99 were both using the same IP also used by a spambot, Hdfs9f2qb, whom I blocked. And believe me, you'd consider what it posted to be spam; just have a look: [10]. I just reblocked that user, but unchecked "Automatically block the last IP address used by this user, and any subsequent IP addresses they try to edit from," which seemed to be causing problems for you, Jnich99, and possibly other good-faith users. Sorry for the unpleasant experience.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:07, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

Thanks for the explanation. No great harm done. The various recent software upgrades certainly don't seem to have halted the march of the spambots. (WT-en) Jnich99 05:28, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

What upgrades? :-) I'm no techie, but I do know on an empirical basis that the spamming has gotten worse and more difficult to fight. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 05:33, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

Hello Ikan Kekek and welcome to Wikivoyage!

You sly old fox! You seem to be conspiring with sundry disreputable Janitors to achieve multiple "OrgasmsWelcomes" (huge grin):

Wikivoyage is a project with the aim to create a free, up-to-date, and reliable world-wide travel guide, and it is based on an association with the same name: Wikivoyage e.V.

To get a clearer idea about Wikivoyage and how it works, have a look at the community policies and the FAQ section. It may also be useful to read the Copyleft page where you can find more information about our license. The part of Wikivoyage called Wikivoyage General helps Wikivoyagers to organize and discuss language independent topics. If you want to find more information related to potential language versions, have a look at the language version discussions page. "How to start a new language version" will help you plunge forward.

If you understand their languages, it might be interesting to have a look at the German or the Italian language versions of Wikivoyage, as those are the long established language versions and there you will have an opportunity to discover what the project and its articles look like. The launch of the English Language version is imminent. The images that are used within our articles are at Wikivoyage Shared.

Our policies, guidelines and Manual of style may be a bit different to other Wiki's you've worked on.

If you need more information or you have questions that have not been answered in the help pages, please do not hesitate to write a post in the Travellers' Pub or to ask me directly.

--W. Frank^e-mail_talk 02:35, 24 September 2012 (CEST)

cross confirmation

Hi Ikan, hope you are doing fine. You have not been around for some time, so this might be interesting http://www.wikivoyage.org/general/WMF_Migration/New_policies/Cross-identification_of_accounts Also we try to get the new policies here implemented, so any helpful hand is appreciated. Have a great weekend, Jc8136 (talk) 12:46, 5 October 2012 (CEST)

Hi, Jc. I'm not a techie, so I couldn't help with the implementation of this kind of policy. Are there any other new discussions I should be aware of? Thanks, and I hope you also have a great weekend. (WV-en) Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:53, 5 October 2012 (CEST)

Ikan, there is an misunderstanding. The policy is already implemented and made. If you would like to merge your accounts from WT and WV here, then you solely need to add your account name on the bottom of the list [11]. It's great because it imports your old WT history if you want, too. Regards, Jc8136 (talk) 13:06, 5 October 2012 (CEST)

I accidentally deleted my WT history before I left WT, so that wouldn't help. Oh well. :-) (WV-en) Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:07, 5 October 2012 (CEST)

I saw that my undeleted WT history was imported here, so I did apply to merge my accounts. Thanks again, Jc. (WV-en) Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:26, 14 October 2012 (CEST)

them external links

Thanks for the welcome back, Ikan! And thanks for pointing out the external links page - with all the listings now doing frontlinking, I thought that was going to be the new standard here. Then I found this. Well, back to fixing my stuff up! PerryPlanet (talk) 18:21, 12 October 2012 (CEST)

Account merge

Hi Ikan - I've merged your (new) Wikivoyage account with your old account, so this account should include all content contributions you've ever made. I've also moved your user page and talk page. You were somewhat of a test case, so please report any problems. Provided everything worked as expected then the same process will probably be used with other user accounts. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:52, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

at my page --Cyrfaw (Talk) 07:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you :)

Thank you for your warm welcome Ikan Kekek :) I see Wikivoyage has recently been added to the Wikimedia Foundation and now is itself a Wikimedia project. I am very happy to be a part of such place. I originally started on Wikipedia and have continued to spread out on other wiki's like Wikisource, Wikibooks, etc. and now Wikivoyage! This looks like a very interesting project related to travel and tourism which has one of the most reliable world-wide travel guides that can be found on the web. I look forward to be a dedicated long term member and a positive contributor to Wikivoyage. Best Regards! TheGeneralUser (talk) 20:01, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Wonderful. I look forward to working with you and reading your contributions in the future. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Plain words

May I compliment you on your much clearer wording?

I think many Asian cultures employ these indirect circumlocutions because they think it is more likely to preserve harmony.

(Every time I look at Abbrev. it grates that we firstly recommend something like "These abbreviations should be uniform and consistent and generally should not include full stops or periods" in the lead or nutshell and then go on to say "Some country abbreviations include periods while others do not: "United States of America" should be abbreviated as U.S. with periods, not U.S.A., USA, or US" when the latter abbreviation is used by some (but certainly not all) US departments and agencies...).

Happy New Year! -- Alice^✉ 19:44, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the positive feedback. We argue about more or less small or moderately important points in the "Talk" pages here, but it pays for us to remember that we're all really trying to do the same thing, which is to make this site better for readers. Have a great 2013, and enjoy the warm weather you have at this time - and every other time of year - in Singapore. It's cold here in New York! :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes it is very difficult not being able to see faces and hear tones of voice. I need to try very hard to be tolerant of Peter's boorishness - I'm sure I'd probably find him very attractive if I met him face to face - but it really is very tough trying to ignore the continual sniping about me being a puppet of a German friend of mine that lives in Glasgow. Especially when both Frank and I have already established our bona fides to Fred Bauder and Jimmy Wales on Wikipedia all those years ago and I personally have offered to appear in person with my passports and driving licences to a named admin that promises to keep my personal details confidential - plus anyone with Check user rights can see that I don't usually edit from the continent of Europe. By the way, my work takes me all over the Pacific Rim (but often to and from Oz and NZ) and I'm down under right now and won't be back to spend much time in Singapore until March. -- Alice^✉ 00:30, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Happy New Year from Cyfraw

Hi there and happy new year! Thanks for your efforts at WikiVoyage. Regards --cyrfaw (talk) 09:25, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Cyfraw. Same to you! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:48, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

thx

You're welcome! Tony (talk) 06:02, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Massage

Hi, are you still here? I clarified my Main Page edit request at Talk:Main_Page#Mobile_version. :-) Rogerhc (talk) 05:52, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but I'm having trouble seeing things clearly in that dense thicket of HTML on the main page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Okay, answered here. Rogerhc (talk) 06:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for helping. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:03, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, no comma

[12] Travelpleb (talk) 09:59, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Things sure have changed since I was in school. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Aggressive flirting

Ok, now that you explained, it's clearer to me. On the other side, we should have to be aware that the vast majority of en.wikivoyage readers are not English natives; and, by any means, "aggressive" in such a transcultural context is semantically conveying the idea of snatching a woman's arm in the street. Which is naturally false, especially when you consider the incidence of rapes compared to apparently calmer cities like Florence (which, between you and me, has the highest rapes' incidence in Italy, followed by Milan...)...Neapolitans consider getting along with a woman like a proof of their courting capabilities, so being "aggressive" in such a trans-cultural meaning would be cause of shame for them. So, having understood your meaning, I would rather use "persistent" or "insisted". Ah, probably you understood I AM a Neapolitan and live in town, so I can speak about courting with some insider view... :-) --Ferdinando Scala (talk) 10:53, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Your point is well taken. Can we agree on "somewhat persistent flirting"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:01, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if I didn't answer earlier, I was working and then flying back home. Your new version is ok, thank you for your kind understanding. Btw, I often travel to Turkey for business, and first time I read your nickname I thought you were a Turkish...thenafter I read the history of your life, quite fascinating. I'm also a global traveller, so it will be great to share views with you in the future. And, in case you come to Naples, I will be happy to show you some special places. :-) --Ferdinando Scala (talk) 21:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll let you know. I loved visiting Naples. :-) Distintamente, Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:51, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Johor Bahru

Hi! I have seen that you worked a bit on the Malaysia article. We tried to get Johor into a better shape for OtBP but it contains to much info. Felix and i tried to work it but another helping hand would be great, if you have some spare time. Regards, jan (talk) 08:25, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Jan. I've never been to Johor Bahru, but I'll have a look when I have a chance. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:26, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Not a Bot.

I am receiving multiple email about some minor edits I made asking me to post a reply to confirm that I am not a spambot..is this the correct place to do so?

You already made that clear. I was asking you to respond in your user talk page. Did you read the messages I left for you there, and do you understand them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:00, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Vikram chuahan

Hi there, I change the deletion template from {{vfd}} to {{speedy}} because it is lacking information and it looks like a non-sense article. If you don't belive me you can undo my edit. Thanks! --cyrfaw (talk) 11:10, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

not done - Never mind - The page is already deleted since it has lack of information. Thanks! --cyrfaw (talk) 05:09, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed. And that's certainly fine with me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:12, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Good, thanks! --cyrfaw (talk) 05:15, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Hudson valley

You're welcome! Daniel Case (talk) 05:18, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I restored Il Cena'colo to the restaurant section minus the Zagat ref (didn't know about that rule, thanks). It's not the only one of those restaurants west of the river. Daniel Case (talk) 02:28, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Why does it belong in Hudson Valley, rather than Newburgh? The standard practice is to list restaurants in city guides, whenever possible, and to list them in regional guides only when there is no other place to list them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, OK. The article had a very broad "Eat" section; since it just said "Since CIA is in the region there are a lot of good restaurants", I decided to list some because you can't just pick any one at random, even if the chef did go there, and assume it'll be great. I suppose that section, in regional pages, is just for particular regional food treats? (yes it is, I see now). I suppose in this case snickerdoodles would be about the only thing I can think of. Daniel Case (talk) 18:15, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

It's fine to mention that the CIA is in the region, and it could be OK to mention a few other places by name, but readers should be directed to guides like Newburgh for full listings of restaurants that are in particular towns. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:14, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Manoli

I blanked it because

Don't tout. Wikivoyage is a site for travelers, not for marketing, and promotional listings will be removed. This guideline identifies ways for businesses to contribute constructively. In particular, please do not ever add more than one listing for a business. —The preceding comment was added by User:Manoli (talk • contribs)

I just did a lot of detouting. Look now. Deleting the entire sleep section is overly extreme, in my view. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:49, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ikan If everybody will leave advertisings for some villas or apartments, the sleep section will be filled with advertising spam. The whole sleep section is a copy and paste product. The same you will find here:

http://www.todaytourism.com/travel-guides/Zakynthos-travel-guide.html?section=Sleep

and under other URL's

For my opinion seems like you want to protect somebodys intrests in zakynthian tourism.

Please lets stop spamming. Have a look for Exemple to wikivoyage "Mallorca" - there is no adveretising spam in the sleep section. If they start there the same it will filled up with thousands of entrys. —The preceding comment was added by User:Manoli (talk • contribs)

Thanks. The link to the Zakynthos Sleep site does persuade me that you have a good argument for deleting all the "Sleep" entries in the Zakynthos article, but the mere fact that entries are listed in multiple places is no proof that they are not worthy of being listed (although, obviously, copyright violation is an issue). So in order to reach a consensus, which consists of more than two people having a discussion, I will copy and paste this discussion to Talk:Zakynthos. But please disabuse yourself of the weird notion that I support spamming. I have never been to Zakynthos; know no-one who owns any property, operates any business, or has any interest whatsoever in any business in Zakynthos; do not own or have any financial interest in any real property whatsoever; and am a volunteer admin on Wikivoyage. Meanwhile, I have no idea who you are. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Rock, Cornwall

Hi Ikan, could you please explain why you have single handedly decided to take the rash decision to delete a new page that I was in the process of setting up on Rock, Cornwall? I had set up the page and entered some introductory text and had gone away to get some additional information to start filling in other sections only to return to find that some idiot had deleted the page. I can't see that the page infringed any of the policies or guidelines and you have clearly not properly followed any deletion procedure. You give a reason for deletion that there was little useful content on the page and there had only been one contributor. Hardly surprising when I had only just created the page a few minutes before? Perhaps a more productive use of your time might be to actually contribute something positive to Wikivoyage rather than preventing others from doing so. Tallguyuk (talk) 13:50, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

My apologies. If someone else has not restored the page, I will do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

It looks like someone else restored it in the interim. Apologies again; I goofed on this. Thanks for contributing, and I will try not to make this kind of mistake again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:05, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

No problem, I can see how it happens. Tallguyuk (talk) 20:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for understanding. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

IP blocking

For the record, 3 months is a little high for IP blocks since some users have dynamic IPs. If it's a static IP (the vandal keeps using the same IP and keeps getting the same blocks) it's probably okay though. It depends on how the ISP is set up. No worries though, it's always difficult dealing with anonymous editors :) --Rschen7754 20:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't know how to recognize a static IP from a dynamic IP. Would you recommend a 1-month block in cases of spambots or severe vandalism? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

If they come back under a slightly different IP, it's definitely dynamic. In extreme cases, you can do a rangeblock (a block of a range of IPs), but if the range is large, you may need to consult a steward (since you have no local CUs) to make sure that you're not blocking innocent users as collateral damage.

However, if the same IP returns after you blocked it, it's definitely static. A 1 month block for a spambot seems fine, unless you can tell that it's an w:en:Open proxy, in which case you can block for a year or two. (If you look at the IP's contributions page on the English Wikipedia, there's some additional tools, and projecthoneypot.org may have some additional info. Unfortunately, I don't know too much more about finding those beyond that). IP blocking is definitely a complicated art :) --Rschen7754 20:30, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Protecting politically charged pages

Hey, I wanted to respond to your comments on India and Pakistan. I don't think the problem as of now is very serious—I've seen edits every 2-3 minutes over the course of hours before that did justify protects, but I don't think it's too bad right now. (And I think I've watchlisted all pages related to all the world's territorial disputes by now.) If you're feeling burnt out at all dealing with the nationalist edit warriors, I'd recommend just working on something more enjoyable for a spell. For me that's usually mapmaking or more recently writing about Fitzgerald. The India and Pakistan articles are pretty well watched by a number of people. Your prolific patrolling work is amazingly helpful, though, so I hope I'm not discouraging you from it! --Peter ^Talk 09:01, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the good thoughts and helpful perspective, Peter. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

India/Pakistan, moved from my user page

Dear, I know that this is travel site then also you have to show unclaimed map hatched understand. and if not then see http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Pakistan you will find kashmir region hatched. (Unsigned, posted by User:Jay8580)

The solution is that the cross-hatching should be deleted from the Pakistan map. I'm not sure how to do that, but you are right to point out an inconsistency. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:23, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Dear finally you understand what i wanted to say.

Please sign your posts by typing 4 tildes (the "~" key) before you press enter on talk pages. But anyway, I'm sure we will fix the Pakistan map when someone checks Talk:Pakistan who knows how to do that. Please be patient. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:41, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

~Thanks Because i read this matter in state level newspaper.

This was covered in a newspaper in your state? That's surprising, and could help to explain the vehement reaction. And the moral of the story is, never ascribe to bias what is much more likely to be due to oversight. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

~Yes. It is gujarat samachar news paper leading news paper in gujarat state. go to this link http://www.gujaratsamachar.com/20130122/head/head4.html Jay8580(talk)

Well, I can't read Gujarati. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. I certainly was not aware of the inconsistency in the maps until now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:02, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

~ you can use google translate

True. Do you suppose they'll do a follow-up article when we correct the problem? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:12, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Your comment

I responded to the comment you left on Talk:Buffalo and I wanted to make sure you were made aware of it so that you could give your opinion.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Your advice

Re: - http://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Sundanese_phrasebook&diff=prev&oldid=2123802 I have seen this addition and it looks like a straight copy and paste from wp en - I would suspect such an addition is not really a valid way to provide information for a wikivoyage phrasebook here on wikivoyage in comparison to say http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Indonesian_phrasebook - I'd be interested to know how you would approach the problem... (on wp en the tendency for sundanese cultural info has a real problem with WP:UNDUE as if it is the centre of the known universe - something like some regions of malaysia as well...) thanks for any adevice or comments on the issue. sats (talk) 09:20, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi, sats. Yes, at a glance, it is clearly a cut-and-paste job, and therefore, needs to be blanked except for perhaps the barest of an introduction. I'll take care of it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:37, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

A further remark: As a matter of policy, wholesale copy-paste jobs from Wikipedia are not allowed on this site, especially when they aren't even credited and include extraneous encyclopedic content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Hotels/Restaurants

Thanks for this. I understand the reasoning; but there's a problem. As it happens, many more visitors come to Levoca for the day than stay overnight. If these restaurants are listed only under hotels we actually end with 'under-touting' - not making people aware that these resturants exist and effectively giving preference to the restaurants which don't have sleeping accommodation attached. This also seems unfair. In the meantime anyway I will reedit the articel to place the restaurant listings in the sleepsection, with perhpas a note after 'Eat' on the lines 'many hotels also have good restaurants open for day visitors,(see below)'. Best, --Smerus (talk) 21:19, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

That sounds like a good solution. Another possible solution is, if the restaurants are more notable or much more patronized than the hotels, perhaps it might be best to list them in "Eat," rather than "Sleep," with a note in their "Eat" listing that you can also stay at the hotel and a description of the hotel included. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:29, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

fyi

just in case you didnt notice it - (User creation log); 17:41 . . User account AliCeja80 (talk | contribs) was created by AnnabelleDeitz85 (talk | contribs) ‎- cheers sats (talk) 10:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I didn't notice. Thanks, sats. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:26, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the welcome. I hope I don't screw things up...much. ;) ReveurGAM (talk) 10:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Don't worry about that. We all screw up, and when we do, others are there to edit the screw-ups. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

"Lombok chillies"

I noticed your deletion of this photo item in Indonesia's food section, which I had considered doing last night (well, actually, after midnight) while editing the section, and I have a question about this food item. I have not heard of cabe lombok and, to my knowledge (and my Javanese wife's), lombok is just another word for chili pepper. Can you set me straight on this? Perhaps, if you can tell me what the Indonesian name is, I might have a photo I could upload. Thanks!ReveurGAM (talk) 05:22, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I really don't know because I really speak Bahasa Melayu, not Bahasa Indonesia. Lombok is only an island to me. Cabe evidently is the Indonesian equivalent of cabai, one Malay word for chili (lada and cili are more common), and coincidentally, that's how the word would be pronounced in Kelantan, the state just to the north of Terengganu, where I used to live (Bahasa Terengganu would pronounce the word "cabaaa"). Anyway, a Google image search for "cabe lombok" turns up a few photos of chilis, but I'm not sure what that proves. [13] Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:36, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

So, I guess we're both confused then. :) FYI, "cabai" is infrequently used here as an alt. spelling. "Lombok" is only uncommonly used to refer to chilis, being subject to confusion amongst the uninitiated because of the island. "Lada" and "merica" are used to refer to black/white pepper, not chilis, here. The only thing I know about Malaysian is that it's different enough that when I watch Upin Ipin or Boboi Boy, I get confused without subtitles. :)

I did a quick Google image search of "cabe lombok" and the hits on the first page (ignoring the island hits) showed the two words to be synonymous (e.g.: "cabe a.k.a. lombok"), not the name of a species of chili. The chili shown on that page appears to be the common but pricy mild "cabe merah besar", except for an image of "paprika" (bell pepper). That chili (CMB) and "cabe keriting" would be worthy additions given how frequently they are used (less so than rawit because of the higher price and inferior spiciness). Any thoughts?ReveurGAM (talk) 05:52, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, by all means insert any photos you feel would help prospective or current visitors understand Indonesian cuisine!

By the way, in Malay, lada hitam does mean "black pepper," but "lada hidup" means fresh hot pepper and "lada kering" means dried hot pepper. When I visited Indonesia a couple of times in 1976 (yeah, that's how long it's been!), I think I understood about 75% of what people said to me, and they understood something more like 90% of my Malay. Using words like "bilik" instead of "kamar," they told us, was "Bahasa Dusun" - dusun being a word that in Malay was a bit fancy and synonymous with kampung. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:24, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I just noticed this discussion and thought I might add a couple of comments, and a digressive factiod for good measure. I my own experience I would normally expect to see a chili described as 'cabe' (alt) cabai, (alt) cabai merah, (alt) lombok (bahasa Jawa). That is certainly what I am familiar with conversationally. It must also be understood that the range and variety in chili plants and their 'fruits' is quite considerable.
Cabe is a general descriptive word, to which additional descriptors may be appended, hot, green, red, small, dry, fresh, sweet, long, big, small, and additionally many have common and specific names, many of which vary between regions.

Now for the slightly distracting, but still contextual factoid. The name of the island of Lombok is often misattributed to the chili (Id:cabe alt. lombok). Tourism promotions often use an image of a chili when marketing the island as a destination. Travel writers, often with some air of authority (and presumably just copying each others work), refer to the name of the island of Lombok in eastern Indonesia (NTB) as being "derived" or "meaning" Chili, from the Indonesian word (lombok), as is sometimes used to describe a chili.
It is true that the Sasak people of Lombok are quite liberal in the use of the chili in their diet, indeed some may appraise they are excessive in their embracing of the chili in various condiments, sambal, salads and in cooked food.
However, the name of the island is actually derived from the Sasak word lomboq, which is equivalent to lerus or (En) straight, straight ahead (alt:in a direct course). The Sasak (orang Lombok) describe a chili (cabe or lombok) thus; sebie, (alt) sebiya, (alt) sebiye, (alt) sebiye. The first may be the more popular spelling. It must be understood that Bahasa Sasak has strong 'oral' traditions, the language in written form gets a bit vague at times, and there is considerable regional dialectic variation, both in word use, and in pronunciation.-- Felix (talk) 18:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Looking over some of the recent edits on the Indonesia article I feel a bit concerned regarding some of the new content and edits, so I am going to wander over to the articles Talk page and leave a few comments. -- Felix (talk) 18:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the interesting discourse on chilis and language, and for whatever edits you will do in the Indonesia article. You always do great edits! Also, if you're an admin now, congrats, and if you aren't yet, you will be shortly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Holy chilis, Batman! Actually, dusun is used here, too, but not nearly as commonly as kampung and desa. I've not come across bilik but it seems oddly familiar. Or perhaps I'm just thinking of "bilk". ;) hehe

Felix, how many languages do you know? I don't even remember how to say "thank you" in Sasakian. :( You suggested above that cabe merah is the same as cabe, however that prompts the question: "What then is the meaning of merah if not "red", because chilis come in red, orang, yellow, green, purple and black?" -- —The preceding comment was added by username (talk • contribs)

It most certainly only applies when they are red, but they don't need to be hot and red, it only pertains to the colour alone as far as I am aware. Generally I am more concerned about the fluctuating price of the things :) -- Felix (talk) 18:34, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

wikivoyage user page

it would seem that user pages - if a user chooses to offer an email address for off wikivoyage conversation - that long term users have simply provided their email address as part of the text on the page. I understand that some would never want such a connection, while others would want to do so - my stance is that if someone really wants to contact - they go to my wp en page and send an email via the link there under 'user' - I wouldnt want to bother the current range of considerations in wikivoyage with such a facility in the drop-down, I think there are far more important things to be considered policy wise... sats (talk) 09:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I just about never provided my email address except accidentally, and then I discover that because a user emails me about something that should be discussed on user talk or the talk page for an article. I did send you an email through one of those forms on Commons, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

odd, as I do not seem to have received anything - the wp en drop down seems to be the best way to go sats (talk) 10:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

spammer

http://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Wikivoyage:How_to_start_a_new_page&oldid=2011002 for some reason i cannot find how to revert 2 edits rather than the one. unsigned 10:12, 31 January 2013 SatuSuro oops sats (talk) 14:47, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Click history, select the last good version, click 'edit', click 'save'. K7L (talk) 10:51, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Or what I usually do: You go into the history and then compare the current version to the last clean version and click "undo." Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

thank you both - I was in a hurry to get off the computer to get to an appointment but didnt want to leave it unattended - thanks sats (talk) 14:47, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Real and non-promotional?

OK I'm not new to wikis but new here and a bit confused about Wikivoyage policy so perhaps you could help me out. Just so me and you are on the same page, you just deleted a link I added to Bridlington. I have no link to the fish and chip shop in question and no desire to promote it. What I've read says this wiki likes in article links to pages(rather than citations) and also likes direct info rather than third party sources. So when I come across a national award winning chippy in Brid I think it'd be good to have it in the article. I can guess a few things I might have done wrong - but the trouble is they're just guesses. So can you explain to me more fully what you have problems with so I can try to not do it again, if indeed I have broken WV policy? And perhaps in future you could maybe leave me a message on my talk page if you have a problem with my editing as a message in a edit history box probably comes across harsher than you meant it... and in any case leaves me little wiser as to what actually needs changing. --Dakinijones (talk) 04:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I welcome you here and appreciate the editing you're doing, and I'm sorry the edit summary sounded harsh. A real entry looks like this, as shown in Wikivoyage:Restaurant listings:

*'''Name of Restaurant''', Address (''extra directions if necessary''), phone number (''email, fax, other contact if possible''), [http://www.restaurant.example.com/]. Days and times open. One to three sentences about the food, service, atmosphere, view, specialties, music, what have you. $lowprice-highprice (''extra price info'').

There needs to be a physical address in the guide, so the reader knows where the fish and chips place is. And it's great if the fish and chips place won an award, but the name of the organization or survey that gave the award needs to be mentioned in the description within the entry. Just a link plus a "best in UK" seems promotional, but in context, the link and a mention of the award would be fine. For the other edit I made, please have a look at the external links policy. One of the goals of Wikivoyage is to serve travelers on the go who don't have access to the internet, for whatever reason. So necessary information - name of pub, address, how to get there if it isn't obvious, phone number, hours if you know them, some kind of description - needs to be in the guide on Wikivoyage, not in a link somewhere else. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining... That's really made it a lot clearer and will definitely help my editing in the future. --Dakinijones (talk) 05:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Great! Thanks again for your edits, and please carry on! Cheers, Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:09, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Indonesia

Hi Ikan, that is a notable improvement here. That was one of the several issues that bothered me on a first read. I think it could be developed a bit further though. In my own experience there are no "pockets of animism". There are certainly areas where animism is more overt, the adherents of Waktu Telu in North Lombok, even more so the (not quite diminished) Boda of North Lombok are stand outs. There is also a distinct group of people midway between Jakarta and Anyar in West Jawa. However my point here is that though they, and other similar groups may be overtly symbolic of Animist practice it has a far more common theme in Indonesia. I cannot recall ever meeting an Indonesian that is not bearing at least latent Animism. Scratch the skin of any Indonesian and a Animist is revealed. I have formed the distinct impression that it is not only part of the 'human condition' for Indonesians, it is possibly somehow imbedded in their DNA. When considered with some pause this is not surprising. Animism is part of the human condition, indeed some may go as far as to proclaim that it is the human condition. The progressions of first Hinduism, then other beliefs such as Buddhism, Christianity and Islam have really only served to repress Animism in Indonesia, it is alive and well behind every tree, hiding under every bed, in all the shadows and borne upon every gust of wind and in every rustle of a palm frond. If any thing goes wrong it is quickly revealed who in the room is an animist, I would be surprised to see one in their number who will express it either overtly or by deference. I don't think we are portraying that in the article yet. Maybe we don't need to. However I though I might share that with you as I am aware of your own roots in the region. -- cheers Felix (talk) 13:48, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I do relate to this. But thinking about my greater experience in Malaysia, while I think a lot of the orthodox Muslims actually would fear hantu, they don't make animism part of their religious or customary (adat) practice. So maybe it would be more accurate to say that there are some Indonesians who adhere only to traditional Indonesian animistic religions (pockets of them, if we want to maintain that phrasing), whereas most other Indonesians are in a formal sense adherents of Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, or Buddhism, though most of the inhabitants of the country - of whatever formal religious identity - also maintain animist beliefs. In any case, don't hesitate to make any edits you believe would improve the accuracy or tone of the section on folk religion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:05, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I, too, like your improvement that Felix linked to above, and I agree that it should be developed further. I've already made my opinion clear (I hope) about what you wrote about religion in the talk page. I'm not sure how I feel about "pockets" because I've met people who deny being animists (despite utilizing animistic beliefs, sometimes), others who admit believing in it while it isn't their religion (with the same caveat), and I've met some who claim they are animists. Most interestingly, the syncretization (sic?) of Christianity and Kejawan is not denied quite as often as it is with Muslims.

I will, however, have to completely disagree that it is "in their DNA." I won't expound on it, but I find it oddly offensive.

The overlay of newer religions on older ones can be observed all over the world, or so I've heard. Look at Christianity's holidays: most of them are placed over pagan holidays (eg: Easter, Halloween, Christmas), even to the point that Christmas is on the wrong date. I doubt this has anything to do with DNA but rather indicative of how difficult it is to rid oneself completely of one's value system, even when it has been discarded in favor of another.

I appreciate your experience in Malaysia, IK, but what is true there isn't true here. Animism is, indeed, alive and well - even if it's not admitted to. When my in-laws insisted on hanging my daughter's "twin" from the rafters, they admitted it wasn't an Islamic tradition and, when pressed, admitted it was animistic. My son's "twin" was buried. My in-laws, by the way, are tolerant but fairly religious (but dad's dead :( ) Still not sure about "pockets", but I like the way you worded everything else above. FYI, you forgot Confucianism, the 6th religion. ReveurGAM (talk) 17:47, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

2012 and 2013

These articles were copied directly from Wikipedia, if you were wondering. I might go ahead and nom nom nom them for deletion, unless if you think they can be speedied. JamesA ^>talk 06:32, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I already deleted 2012, having checked Wikipedia myself. I will delete 2013. No reason to have a Vfd discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:33, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

real life and indonesian folklore

have had a few days attending to real life, and will try to read all the comings and goings with the Indonesian article - once I have read all the talk material, and changes in articles, will decide whether I am interested in getting involved. Having both my wife and I do Pd level anthropology field work in Java, I find quite a lot that I have read so far quite to be debatable, but whether, in the end it is worth taking on the opinions or even commenting here on wikivoyage is debatable. I might in the end just remain silent, and edit the atrociously under-written Tasmanian articles the talk pages are already far too full, and honestly 'Indonesian superstitions' aka folklore, was in my head for over 15 years, to have to deal with others experiences or ideas might not necessarily be of any benefit to a wikivoyage article or two in the end... it might just muddy the waters... sats (talk) 15:05, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, sats. I'd be grateful if you'd edit anything that's either inaccurate, misleading, or has a problematic tone. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:02, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

sheesh - the Indonesian stuff feels like too much to handle at the moment, I think Ill go back under my rock and have a slightly longer sleep. One thing to tag the newcomers, another to enter into conversation about the nuances of life in the tropics ... sats (talk) 01:07, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Selamat tidur. All in good time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

and when I do dip in the recent edits and see like : -(diff | hist) . . Talk:London/City of London‎; 01:09 . . (+243)‎ . . ‎Visit the City (talk | contribs)‎ (→‎Hello - here to help: ) - and remember seeing you do blocks on spammers - I suppose I need to get into a conversation about doing the patrol, seeing the really obvious usernames and the subject, and without even looking at what they have (or not) written, I am interested to see your comment about how much leeway such edits are or not allowed in the area of spam and setting themselves up as 'the centre of the universe' as at http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Roanoke - havent welcomed, as even if I was to read touting into the edits, interested in having any suggestions as to where the lines of demarcation are seeing you regularly knock em off... sats (talk) 09:01, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

This is by no means the worst touting I've seen, but current policy is shown here SEO#Marketers_and_SEOs:

"Because there is an inherent conflict of interest when someone is being paid for their edits, if you are working for a hotel chain, a marketing agency, or a similar organization then you may not add multiple listings for that business to Wikivoyage articles. Wikivoyage is not a yellow pages, so adding every individual location for a hotel brand or restaurant chain is not an appropriate use of this site. If a hotel is truly exceptional, or if a city has a very limited number of lodging options available, you may propose a listing to be added on the article's talk page, but do not add the listing yourself. Marketers that add multiple business listings should expect to see their contributions reverted, and in the worst case repeated violations of this policy may lead to blocking of the contributor's account and possibly blacklisting of the business in question.

Marketers and paid editors may make factual corrections to existing hotel listings, but these changes should be strictly limited to non-subjective information such as URLs or phone numbers. As explained above, do not remove negative information from a listing without first discussing the change; if a listing states that a hotel has a dated interior but the property has undergone recent renovation, point out this fact on the article's talk page and let someone else update the listing."

I think some other admins would immediately revert the entire edit and tell the commercial user to stop touting. However, no listings were actually added. So what I would do is detout the listings to make them purely informational and merge them into one listing (presumably in "Sleep") that covers both the hotel and the restaurant, and send the commercial user a message pointing them to don't tout and welcome, business owners. Would you like to take care of this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:39, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

almost in a car pile up about an hour ago, the foxtel signal has gone down, and I have a meeting to go to, I'll pass... sats (talk) 10:44, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Yikes! Glad you're OK. Be careful out there! Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:08, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

That sounds quite unsettling sats, maybe you shouldn't have been watching foxtel in the car anyway. I do hope you are OK and that the TV is not broken. I had a look at that article and made a few adjustments. Have a look over it and take care of anything else you notice. -- Felix (talk) 20:39, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

As an admin

Wondering if you can take care of these [14]? Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't know how to do this and I'm not sure how much longer I'll be awake, so I'll just leave the task for someone else. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

That would've also been the reason why the main page wasn't displaying properly for you :-) JamesA ^>talk 12:50, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Moszna Castle

Hello. I am relatively new to WIKIVOYAGE and am not positive if I can reply to your emails. I have been attempting to make/create the Moszna Castle page. I do not mind that the page has been re-directed, however, I made an error on the original entry and now the page is in the wrong place. My original error involves the "Lublin Voivodeship". This castle is not located in the Lublin Voivodeship. It is located in the Opole Voivodeship. Can you please redirect it to an "Opole" or "Silesia" page? Once again, I do not know how to reply to your messages. If you could be so kind as inform me that the changes have taken place I would appreciate it. I want to make sure it is in the correct spot. Thanks, Norris4949.

Hi. I will take care of this. I hope it isn't confusing to you that I moved your post to the bottom of my user talk page for ease in reading. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:55, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Talk Back Targetkristy

Hey Ikan Kekek, i replied to you on my Talk page - (talk!

White space

Is it a hangover from wiki travel or some other part of the archaeology of this venture - but a large number of outline articles seem to have headings and parts of things with vast amount of white space (ie spaces between text and headings), I was sure when I just a starter at old wp en that I was chastised for leaving any white space around... I was told in no uncertain terms that such a practice was a waste of space as the headings didnt need space above or below and they were formatted to make the right adjustments. It seems that the vast spaces here on wv are testament to something that is not explained anywhere... sats (talk) 10:18, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi, sats. I really don't know if there's any policy on this. We should have a discussion about it and come to an agreement. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:14, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

hmmm - I know some of the discussions here are so extraodrinarily specific on some issues, I am not sure this is going to be an issue with time well spent, oh well here goes... sats (talk) 23:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

OK I am wrong - once again - Wikivoyage:Section headers has established that the spaces are required (the reasoning to me is bollocks, but hey), however the talk page suggests that inadequate discussion has occurred on the subject... so I have taken the subject to the pub. sats (talk) 00:19, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Good. I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:57, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

It was discussed - but hey like some things here - one support, one oppose - so it went nowhere... also a reply to my query making fun of worrying about a byte seems to be what i expected. Less then 50,000 articles it might seem ok - when the project gets to over 100,000 maybe they might think again about wasted space sats (talk) 08:54, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

That's a good point. I hope you make it in the thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

There's the rub - the amount of dead threads around the place make one wonder... Even something as simple as my admin nom sits in limbo like a sore thumb (either direction... wait or archive or what) some parts of this project they leave the lights on and the door open... :| sats (talk) 09:08, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello

Hello Ikan Kekek. You have a new message at Curtaintoad's talk page. Thanks, Curtaintoad ^{(curtain or toad)} 09:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

History sections

The Indonesian one bothers me a lot - but real life returned my youngest from overseas with suspect DVT early this am (long waits in emergency departments etc etc), along with everything else, my capacity to be coherent in my critiquing having long history sections will have to wait. Thank you for suggesting about taking it higher. sats (talk) 02:35, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about your son's travails. My best wishes to both of you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:58, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Nah he's sleeping it all off at the moment - its all good - as they say. I am more concerned that the history discussion that you and reveur are having is a good productive reduction - and I dont want to thwart that process - it is clear you both sound off against each other on the issues - and it looks good with the improvements.

As I say elsewhere, I am simply against putting extensive history into wikivoyage - it smells of (ie has a nafas of) something that somehow doesnt feel right to me - it is one thing to have issues with renditions of what Suharto did or didnt do - and the effects that have carried down to affect the world that traveller is moving in - but the nafas is of moving into non-goal, I know that if I was to an 'understand' section for my research site/(which is a tourist destination, must write it up some day), then I would really get carried away with aspects of history, anthropology, semiotics, and a little bit of the 'londho's' reflection of what a ziarah site might be like in the bantul regency.... I certainly would 'not want to provide anything' about the complex enclave issues that existed between Yk and Sk (assume you know the abbreviations) and how it affected villages and wider community issues in the eastern bantul area for over 50 years before sukarno era... the detail is probably the devil in all this... If there is anything that has got to me almost 20 years after my fieldwork, is that its what you leave out is as important as what you put in. Like my wifes fieldwork that echoes your mothers... there are details in the world of birth in this whole archipelago that might fit into some books, but others it doesnt go in it all. Hope that explains where I am coming from just in case you wondered.  :) sats (talk) 09:41, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I sort of get it but it's late and I've had a few shots of whiskey, so I'm not sure. :-) I don't actually recognize the abbreviations Yk and Sk. I get your point about non-goals, but a bit of knowledge may be good (though I do get the point about a little knowledge being dangerous). Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

sheesh it is sooooo hot here (40 degrees C) - a drop of anything alcoholic would be close to fatal for me - Imogiri - Yogyakarta (Yk) and Surakarta (Sk) enclaves - the subject is like a borgesian labyrinth of madening intricacy that even local yogyakarta based academic historians were averse to try to unfold/unpack and explain... sats (talk) 09:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

It's cold here. Yes, I do know some about the rivalry between the two great cities of Central Javanese culture. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:55, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

This was something much more complex than that - I must do something somewhere to explain the issue, it was bizarre and really obscure... somewhere, some day... sats (talk) 10:07, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello

Hello Ikan Kekek. You have a new message at Curtaintoad's talk page. Thanks, Curtaintoad ^{(curtain or toad)} 09:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Please be my friend ! ('~') And please reply to this message if you have the time! Curtaintoad ^{(curtain or toad)} 11:37, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by being your friend. We're just pixels on a website, hopefully going after the same goal of improving the site. Take it easy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:53, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay. Curtaintoad ^{(curtain or toad)} 23:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Request

Having polluted your talk page with all the self revealing material about the unfinished post graduate project (any archiving of any of the material would be appreciated...) - could you be so kind as to delete the page entitled SatuSuro/sandbox please? I inadvertantly created it without placing the rather important User: in there , and the redirect page is now redundant. Thanks sats (talk) 08:33, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I deleted the redirect. I thought anyone could do that, though. No? As for the other stuff, go ahead and delete or archive anything you don't want to be here that concerns you, as long as it won't mess up a conversation that's important for some other reason. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:57, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

nah no big deal really - as for the delete - I didnt think ord eds could do... sats (talk) 12:00, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Prevalla

Hello! I was just checking Prevalla. The text has been taken from [15] which is under Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License and afaik, according to Wikivoyage:Copyleft, the user who created the article is able to use the text from it. Maybe I'm wrong but I think this has always been like this (CC-by-sa-3.0 or Pd is allowed on wikimedia projects). Thank you in advance--Arnaugir (talk) 15:41, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

You are right, but I don't think unattributed copying is OK, as we don't allow that from Wikipedia, either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it should be cited, maybe in edit summary or talk page? like in wikipedia.--Arnaugir (talk) 14:52, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Suharto's regime & the military

I decided to put this on your page instead of on the Talk: Indonesia page since it seemed of interest to you and not so useful for travelers to know, perhaps. I hope that you don't mind.

Your comments about your experience in the 70's during Suharto's reign spurred my curiosity. Yesterday, I was judging a competition so, afterwards, I took the time to ask my fellow judges (all in their early/mid 30s) about the Suharto era. I also asked my mother-in-law today, whose husband was a police officer (he was part of the first batch to graduate from officer's school), about what her perception of that time was. I thought you might find the information interesting.

Prior to Suharto taking control, the masses viewed him as the best choice to succeed Sukarno. There was no awareness of his villainy and machinations against Sukarno. After his rise to president/dictator, the national educational system (at least up to secondary) was used as a propaganda system to plant in the minds of the masses that he was a great man. And, indeed, the commentators I spoke to all agreed that he did a great deal of good for the common person. But, they were - in effect - brainwashed into believing him to be a hero of the highest caliber (sounds like N. Korea, almost?). Three of the four stated they were completely unaware of Suharto's real nature prior to entering university. Even as the wife of an officer, my mom-in-law knew very little about what was going on because her husband didn't discuss police matters with her. One commented that there were rumors going around prior to university, but it was their fellow students (activists) who opened their eyes to the corruption and abuses of Suharto's regime. In particular, one of them commented that some of her "seniors" (activists) disappeared from campus, never to be heard from again. They all confirmed the illegal imprisonments, kidnappings and "petrus" (penembak misterius = mystery shooters). They also told me that Suharto had a special way of dealing with the craftiest of criminals in Indonesia - the ones who couldn't be caught or proved guilty: he'd have them shot.

An interesting comment: they all felt that corruption became MUCH worse after Suharto was ousted. I have to say, though, that in recent years I've noticed a bit of a decline in naughty behavior (but not enough for my tastes!). Perhaps, however, it's because I tend to take a hard line with corruptors so they know I'm not interested in giving "uang rokok".

A couple of years ago, I read the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and he talked about being here during the 70's and how people were very politically aware - but he wasn't socializing with the masses. He was socializing with the well-educated. When you were there, were the people who were speaking out also well-educated (just curious)? If what they all said to me is accurate, then a great many Indonesians were unaware of the crimes committed (at least during his reign). I would love to be able to run a large-scale survey about this - it'd be very interesting, don't you think?

A few weeks ago, a man I met by chance recently popped in for a visit. During the course of conversation, he revealed to me that he believed that the military still rule Indonesia. If we look at the number of ex-military candidates (and SBY) who've run for president, one might wonder. So, I asked the same people for their thoughts on this topic. Here's what they said.

On a national and regional level, the military has a great deal of influence on the political process, even to the point of being able to make laws and influence decisions and, in fact, they have a body that has political power (PangLima, they said) at the national level, and the PangDam on a provincial level (or maybe I've got them reversed). These groups have a great deal of power, it seems.

In addition, they told me that the military is also very needed because of all the disasters so, while there are many stories of the military ripping off people (a neighbor back in Semarang was ripped off for an entire property by a commander quite recently), behaving as if they are superior to everyone else and abusing their power, they haven't been excised from general power. I also remember being told that the reason Megawati continued to back Sutiyoso as governor of Jakarta was because she needed his military connections. What's your take on this military angle? It certainly isn't obvious to me (aside from stories told to me recently), but I don't know a lot about the political structure here. ReveurGAM (talk) 06:39, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

From an academic point of view the military issue started in the 1940's and you cannot understand Indonesian history from then unless you have a very good understanding of their role from then until now. As to whether they are needed is irrelevent... in the end sats (talk) 08:18, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Great stories as usual, Reveur. The people who spoke with us in 1976 ran a fairly wide gamut. One of them was an artist who was imprisoned for years without trial in Buru, for no specified reason (he figured that an artists' union he belonged to was considered somehow Communist by the military) and then suddenly released, but most of them were working-class people like cab and bemo drivers and the driver the US Embassy provided for my father in Jakarta when he was lecturing at the auspices of the US Information Service. It's a long time ago, but it seems like easily over a dozen people we encountered spontaneously complained to us about "banyak korupsi." A particularly touching moment was when a cabbie in Jakarta recited an Indonesian translation of the preamble to the US Constitution by heart. It really touched me to see that, despite the US government's complicity with their government's depredations, most Indonesians seemed to still think of the US as a land of democracy and freedom and trust the American people. The only real exception was the time in Berastagi when teenagers threw clods of stone-hard dirt at my mother, yelling "Belanda" and continuing when we said "Bukan! Kami orang Amerika." Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Admin's Barnstar
	In appreciation of your hard work and dedication. INeverCry 22:51, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, INeverCry. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Give me some work? :)

Could you find me some work, something to do, etc? I'm getting a tad bored. Ceadeus Slayer Sea of Blood -Underwater Ruins 19:43, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Can you draw maps? A map of the proposed boundary is needed here: Talk:South_Island#Boundary_of_Queenstown-Lakes_.2F_Otago.3F --118.93.73.30 21:15, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Also, there's always Wikivoyage: Recent changes patrol. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:45, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

If you like making articles, there is information here: 27 New section on folk religion provided by Spartacks and here: Pariaman information from an interview by me. These could be incorporated into a new article about Pariaman. Spartacks is from that general area, so he can probably answer questions for you. ReveurGAM (talk) 15:04, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Would Spartacks consider writing the article? I've never been to Pariaman Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:27, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think he has time as he is one of the main editors for the new Minangkabau edition of WP and, thus, has a lot of work to do to make sure that the committee doesn't yank it. I just suggested it since Ceadeus said s/he was bored. When I have time again, I'll do it if it isn't done yet. Right now I'm busy researching for my book on education. ReveurGAM (talk) 05:21, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Cool! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:31, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Spoilsport!

-- Alice^✉ 05:27, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Put it in Project:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:30, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Indigenous tourism in australia

Sheesh the article text is an insult to the readers intelligence... rubbish... pity my laptop battery needs re-charging....sats (talk) 09:53, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I might have a chance to look at it in about 18 hours but probably not sooner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:02, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Still have computer problems - the generic preaching in the article might or not pass a wv test - but really the complexity of the culture and the issues in each separate state are worth explaining. My reason for being negative about the article is that it is hardly an example of well explained introduction to the heritage that spreads across the country, and has so many variations. Simply put the last few sentences are a bit too blandly generalised as to be of any use to a traveller... sats (talk) 08:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't know enough about Aboriginal cultures to knowledgeably edit it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

OK I'll get around to try to broaden its scope, but will be delayed to real life issues... thanks for responding - cheers sats (talk) 08:48, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Of course! And remember, you're a volunteer here (as we all are), so no obligation, and deal with real-life issues first! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:49, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

My resolve when I get the time next week is to see how indigenous populations in all other countries are dealt with... so maybe they are as good or as bad... as articles or sections of articles... sats (talk) 13:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks

re: [16] - good idea. --Piotrus (talk) 05:41, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Glad to help! Welcome, and thanks for your edits.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:43, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Adding a hotel

How do you add a hotel to the site? Since the Best Western Haiti is a brand new hotel in Haiti and the only american owned hotel, I fell users could benefit from there information.

Do you work for the hotel or do publicity for them in any capacity? If so, you can't add a listing. If not, make sure you don't use ALL CAPS or otherwise touty, advertising-like language. As I said on your user talk page, please read wbo and dt. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Newark

What is unclear about "The official tourist office or government web site for a destination"?

You can't put it as a naked link by itself. The title of the article, Newark (New Jersey) can have a link right after it to the official tourist office, or the tourist office can have a listing. It cannot be a naked link. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:10, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

But also, this is not a mere official tourist office link. You are linking a Vistors Guide. Wikivoyage:External links#What not to link to prohibits links to "Other travel guides," without specifying that official visitors guides are OK, and that is intentional. The list of landmarks should be used as a reference for editors here, not a link, though readers can certainly find it through the main http://www.ci.newark.nj.us/ site, which is linked at the top of the article.

The basis of many of the External Links policies is that we want information to be on this site, rather than off-site only, at some link. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:19, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Musandam Peninsula

Hi mate! I'm sadly back from my last trip. I started a complete overhaul of Musandam and Khasab to better ignore the snow. Could you check a bit for spelling, grammar etc. as i only start to see text? I want to bring it to guide, so that i'm able to nominate it for OtBP. I know that i have to change pics in Khasab but beside that, what is missing? Thank you and regards, jan (talk) 16:34, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi. Sure, I'll have a look when I have a chance. Sounds like an interesting trip! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:52, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Done! It looks like you had a fascinating trip! The main issues I saw were "alt" listings that were more or less repetitions of listing names. The "alt" field should be left blank unless, for example, a hotel used to have a different name (in which case, alt="Formerly known as X"). Also, addresses need to be street addresses, not post office boxes - the point of the addresses is not so that people can write to an attraction, but so they can get to it. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your check! It now reads so much better. Writing on a IPhone definitely deteriorates the quality... The alt listing were already in from the past and i tried to delete them, too. Just to many of them and even on the Ipad hard to delete. Thanks again and have a nice easter weekend, jan (talk) 11:13, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

You're most welcome! Happy Easter to you, too. Where else did you go on your recent trip? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:01, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Jerusalem

Why not red link ? . פארוק (talk) 17:02, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Shalom and todah rabah for all your great work!

The reason why the red links weren't useful is that there will never be articles about attractions. Please read Wikivoyage:What is an article?.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:30, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Ok. but places of tourist visit, can i writte about this ?. פארוק (talk) 08:03, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Of course you can, and please continue! It's just that attractions should (except in very rare cases) be covered as "See" or "Do" entries within city guides, as you've been doing, and not in their own separate articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:26, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

But places that i put red link is places of tourist visiting. פארוק (talk) 09:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I understand that, and what I'm saying is that red-linking attractions is not a useful way to emphasize them. Instead, put the name of the attraction in Bold type by using three ' in a row on either side ('''See or do name'''), and don't write any separate article about any attraction. Do you understand what I'm saying? Did you have a look at Wikivoyage:What is an article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:14, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Ok. thank you very much. פארוק (talk) 09:16, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Any time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:18, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Appalachian Region

Should Appalachian Region and Appalachian Mountains be merged? Nicole Sharp (talk) 09:15, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, to avoid confusion, but don't worry about that right now. I also replied in Talk:Appalachian Region.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:25, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

UFOs

Yeah maybe it shouldn't be added, but the "secret" bases are definitely real, and its not uncommon to see tanks and military convoys chugging down the mountain on I-68, I see them at least every couple months or so. The NSA operates ECHELON (a satellite intercept facility) in the National Radio Quiet Zone, the only radio-quiet zone in the United States (where no radio transmissions are allowed in order for dishes to pick up signals from outer space). Another not-so-secret base is in Lewisburg, WV, where a huge top-secret facility was built under a luxury resort to hold the US Congress and Cabinet during a nuclear war. But there should be a Wikivoyage page to list UFO hotspots on and for Wikivoyagers to post where they saw UFO sightings. I've long advocated for using Wikimedia for organizing UFO sightings, Wikinews said they weren't interested :-(. Nicole Sharp (talk) 11:37, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

UFO hotspots is a fine travel topic, in my opinion, but it would be best to exercise caution and gain a consensus before starting the article. I get your point about secret military bases, but in what way is that a safety issue for travelers? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:44, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I just wanted to weigh in and say that UFO hotspots could be an interesting travel topic for those tourists who are into that sort of stuff. But we have to be careful in avoiding it becoming an updatable list of sightings. It should only focus on hotspots, not every spot! :) JamesA ^>talk 11:49, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

I'll remove the section for UFOs#UFO sightings. However certain places such as locations of crashes or places with physical traces, abduction sites, etc. are still important for historical reasons and for ufological research, such as Roswell, NM or Kecksburg, PA. Nicole Sharp (talk) 11:54, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Yup, those sorts of places are fine. JamesA ^>talk 11:55, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah unless you're wanted by the Military Police I guess, I created a new page, UFOs. Nicole Sharp (talk) 11:48, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

User reply

You beat me to User talk:Ldecola by just a few seconds! :P I did have a short paragraph response written up, but you hit the nail on the head. In other matters, I'd appreciate your input (support if applicable) at Wikivoyage_talk:Barncompasses. Cheers, JamesA ^>talk 11:47, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ikan. I had previously added Eritrea to my project list, but hadn't got around to it, prioritising Qatar instead. Info on Keren does seem to be fairly scarce. The only sources I can find are the Wikipedia article and an old Lonely Planet chapter on Eritrea. They do have a fairly detailed lot of listings on Keren. If you wanted to help develop our article, I can email you the chapter... just don't tell Lonely Planet :P JamesA ^>talk 06:54, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, James. Please make the edits whenever; no rush. Goodness knows, I have a lot of work to do for my actual paying job (as you may for yours). Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:02, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Churchill

Thanks for the proofread and the vote of confidence ;) Since you've already had a look over the article, would you mind commenting on the starnom? --Peter ^Talk 15:26, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Denial of service attack?

Swept in from the pub

What happened here? en.wikivoyage.org was inaccessible to me for some 15 hours. Instead, "DNS Advantage" came up. All other language versions of Wikivoyage worked, and the other travel wiki was also up. It would seem that there hasn't been nearly enough traffic here to hang this site. Is this being investigated as a possible denial of service attack? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:54, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Haven't seen anything of the sort from here. Texugo (talk) 22:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

No issues of that nature here, either. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:46, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

My guess is that it's a DNS caching issue rather than something on the WMF side. --Rschen7754 03:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

No problem seen here, Eastern Canada. The WP page on DNS_Advantage is interesting. Pashley (talk) 11:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

So what's my recourse if this happens again? It can't be purely accidental that en.wikivoyage.org was the only page that wasn't working, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:19, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

As Rschen7754 noted, a DNS issue is almost certainly a problem on your local machine or with your internet provider. There are options to flush DNS caches if the problem is on your machine (sometimes a reboot may do that), or you can try changing the DNS server you use for lookups - Google DNS is an option and there are some instructions on that page for using it. Note that changing DNS is a fairly technical thing, so probably best not to fiddle around with it unless you continue having problems. -- Ryan • (talk) • 19:56, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Malaysia

Hi Ikan, thanks for the check-up. So now I found you as a Malaysia expert! ;-) Next August will likely be the first time I go there, as part of a South-East Asia trip, so I'm not too familiar with any of those places. Please do add any places I've missed. As for the "luxurious", as I understand it from the policy page that refers mostly to hotels and such. My point was rather to include a high-end resort hotspot in the see-section, like Goa would be in India or the French Riviera in France. I think part of the audience is always looking that. Of course there are resorts everywhere, but would Langkawi be a fair pick? Then I'll just try to find some other wordings. (P.S. any personal tips for not to miss places on Peninsular Malaysia are appreciated too haha ;-))) Cheers, JuliasTravels (talk) 09:33, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Julias. I have never been to Langkawi (nor to the Perhentian Islands, either, though my brother, who scuba dives, loved them). My expertise is dated, too: I haven't been to Malaysia since 2004. I also have yet to visit East Malaysia (the part of Malaysia on Borneo). All that said, and with the caveat that I speak Malay fluently and have an appreciation for Malay culture that ordinary visitors without anthropologist mothers and a history of living in a kampung (Malaysian village) may lack, I'll mention that on my last trip, I liked KL very much, though it was of course radically different from on my previous trip (1975-77!). I also found that, though much more developed, the coast of Terengganu was still beautiful (actually, the petrochemical plants near Paka are also beautiful!), and Kota Bharu was interesting for about 3-4 days (I probably stayed a day too long - I think I was there for 5 - and I understand the local dialect perfectly, as it's very similar to Terengganu dialect, which I was fluent in, so take that as a caveat). I enjoyed a couple of days in Ipoh very much; there's great food there and it's a more relaxing city than KL, with some nice late 19th/early 20th-century colonial buildings in the center of town. There are also some interesting cave temples nearby - karst limestone hills (I think) that have been turned into mostly Chinese temples, though one I visited was Hindu.

In the 70s, I found Penang very much worth visiting, but I didn't make it back in 2004. I'm sure it's still worth visiting. It's renowned for great food and has a character all its own. We enjoyed taking a funicular railway to the highest point on the island; see if it's still operating.

Malacca disappointed us because there are only a few old colonial buildings, but it's probably worth going there, anyway. Malacca is well-known for Peranakan/Nyonya cuisine, traditionally cooked by the descendants of Malay women who married Chinese men hundreds of years ago (after the Chinese were sent as a result of Qin Shi Huang's voyages). The Peranakan people are mostly not Muslims, so they eat pork, but their cuisine is a fusion of Chinese and Malay influence. You can get it in places other than Malacca, but that may be the place where it's easiest to get it in great diversity.

I did not go to Johor but did visit Singapore, had great food, but found it too antiseptic. But that was 1976. I hear it's quite a lot more individualistic now, in relative terms.

There were some more off-the-beaten-track places we liked in the 70s, too: In Negeri Sembilan, we liked the Istana Lama (Old Palace) in Seri Menanti; a web search shows that there's now a RM150/night resort there. Kemaman, Terengganu had a few beautiful ornate wooden buildings of a style influenced by the royal style of Johor, perhaps dating from the time when Kemaman was a semi-autonomous area with its own quasi-sultan. I have no idea if any of those buildings still stand and haven't found photos of any of them on Commons.

You might consider also visiting Indonesia. There's much more traditional culture still happening there, at least in parts of the country. Traditional Malay culture has been stamped out to a large degree as antithetical to orthodox Islam, whereas the Indonesian government has to a large extent sponsored a continuation of traditional culture like Kejawen (Javaneseness) in Java.

All that said, if your main interest is scuba diving, I think that Sipadan and the Perhentian Islands are for you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:08, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Ikan, that's far more information than I would have dared to ask for. No, scuba diving is not really my thing (although I'd love to learn properly one day), so your suggestions are very welcome. I'll only have a week or two for Malaysia this time. Indonesia, especially Bali, is our next destination, hopefully for a longer tour. Again, thanks :-) JuliasTravels (talk) 11:13, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

You're most welcome. In a week, a trip to the East Coast might be a bit much to do, but if you go back, it would be a good change of pace from the more heavily populated and ethnically diverse (or/and more Chinese) West Coast cities of KL, Penang, Ipoh, Malacca, etc. Terengganu and Kelantan are very Malay and probably still pretty peaceful on rural areas of the coast, though the cities of Kuantan, Kuala Terengganu, and Kota Bharu were already humongous in 2004 by comparison with the 70s, with most of the virgin jungle cut down near the coast for profit and to make way for communities that didn't use to exist. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:54, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

User:EasyPrivateTaxi

Hello Ikan Kekek, please block the above username, as it is probably [17] a violation of the username policy that represents a group, organisation, or website. By the way, do you know and how do I send block nominations? Regards, —CURTAINTOAD!— 07:00, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

What username policy are you referring to? I don't know of such a policy, so please point to the relevant policy page. Moreover, from what I've seen so far, the user in question has presented a very cooperative attitude.

I also don't know of block nominations, only nominations for URL blocks, which can be posted to MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Bot to add banners to Category:Austria

Hi Ikan. I noticed you seem to be about in the Recent Changes. I'd appreciate if you'd add your administrator's support at Wikivoyage:Script_nominations#User:Traveler100bot_pagebanner. Traveler100 is going on a plane soon, and it'd be good if we could have something to play with and test at Austria before that happens. With regards, JamesA ^>talk 06:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Links to Wikipedia

Hi Ikan, you removed links to Wikipedia from Leiden article. But it seems to me that is not what this policy article suggests: http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Links_to_Wikipedia. Cheers, Erik Zachte (talk) 19:11, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Did you read Wikivoyage:Links to Wikipedia#Different subject? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

No, I just did, thanks. I also looked at the discussion page, and see this has been hotly debated recently. To me it seems odd for Wikivoyage to become a Wikimedia project and still treat Wikipedia as a foreign site. 100,000's of articles would have to be replicated to bring depth to Wikivoyage on buildings, people and more where it is readily available one link away. Anyway, you were right that your action was according to current policy. Cheers, Erik Zachte (talk) 14:35, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this is indeed a hotly-debated question, and one you could contribute your own viewpoint to. But do keep in mind that a link to Wikipedia is a standard feature of almost all Wikivoyage articles. The debate is about whether it serves the site to have multiple links to Wikipedia in each article, on different subjects than the subject of the article, and also on whether it really does serve the traveler to link to a tertiary source, and one particular such source, in entries (or even more controversially, anywhere in an article).Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:42, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

About Sochi

• The Jewish Autonomous Oblast has always been "autonomous", even in Soviet times; more so than Abkhazia or the Sochi region have ever been, I guess. I think best to undo the change and remove the word "autonomy" as superfluous. Ibaman (talk) 19:51, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Leidschendam-Voorburg

Thanks for your revisions. Only I don't understand your question "What "the first decennium"? Do you mean the decade 1-10 AD or 1900-1910? Copy edited, but this point still needs clarification." Concerning the text: The current suburbs, Leidschendam and Voorburg, developed in the 20th century. Voorburg, which is closer to central The Hague, started to grow already in the first decenniums. Leidschendam only started to become a suburb in the fifties, and as a consequence in this town highrise developed on a rather larger scale, whereas Voorburg was already fully built up in the era of highrise architecture.

Isn't it very clear that it's about 1900-1920 or 1930. Also in the sentence before is described dat Voorburg developed as a suburb in the 20th century.VanuitVoorburg (talk) 13:40, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi. We don't use the word "decennium" in English. The word we use is "decade," but based on what you're telling me, the text should read "the early 20th century." I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:39, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again and sorry for my mistakes!VanuitVoorburg (talk) 17:49, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome, and there's no cause to apologize; the important thing is that you put up the content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:38, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Delhi

Thanks. Don't know how that happened. My guess is that the page hadn't fully loaded when I saved it. --RegentsPark (talk) 19:05, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Glad to help.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:23, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Photo linking help

Swept in from the pub

Hi, everyone. Please have a look at Latina. Two of the photos I just tried to link are showing up as red links. That's because they are in it.wikipedia.org, not Commons, as I detail in Talk:Latina. I suppose the solution is to move the photos to Commons, but I don't know how to do that and also don't know whether that could be a problem in regard to Italy's law (if any) on photos of architecture from the 1930s. I feel like showing a bit of fascist architecture is the right thing to do in the Latina guide, since the city was inaugurated in 1932 and probably is still chock-full of fascist architecture as it was in 1991, when I had occasion to be there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

They are both in the Public Domain and you can transfer the photos yourself (the images are: 1 & 2). They have both been tagged for transfer to Commons. I don't understand why some images uploaded to Wikipedia remained tagged for transfer for years and don't get moved by the transfer bot. AHeneen (talk) 09:01, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming that they are in the public domain. Is there someplace I can read easy instructions on how to transfer the photos? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:21, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Maybe take a look at [18]. Or else I could do it for you if you want :) JamesA ^>talk 10:05, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I took care of it, but boy did those file transfers take a long time! Do they usually take several minutes apiece with a DSL connection? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

It's not your connection that's important, I think... unless you downloaded and re-uploaded the files manually. By the way, the images on the Italian Wikipedia now need to be marked with their equivalent of w:Template:NowCommons so that they can be deleted. LtPowers (talk) 15:03, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I took care of it. It turns out to be the same template on it.wikipedia.org. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Hello

Hello Ikan Kekek, thank you for welcoming :)

Do you know how can I rename (correct) titles?

Peñíscola, Dénia, etc. are spelled with acute accents. Lliure albir (talk) 21:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Is it also possible we rename Valencia (region) to either Valencia (autonomous community) or Valencian Community?

Yes to your first question. What would be required would be to move the article. At the top of the page, you should see a triangle facing down. From the dropdown menu, select "Move." Then, in the move screen, type the spelling you want to move the article to and give a reason in the summary box. Always leave a redirect behind at the former spelling. If this is any trouble, you can always propose the move in the talk (discussion) page for the article in question and someone else will execute the move unless there's some reason not to do it.

As for your second question on renaming "Valencia," I'm guessing not, but the right place to bring this up for discussion is Talk:Valencia. The reason I doubt you could get a consensus behind such a rename is that we don't like long official names, as the point of this site is to serve the traveller.

One unrelated thing: Official tourism sites should be put as a URL only in square brackets [], at the beginning of the the article right after the place name.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:43, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your help =)

I can't see the small triangle, why? Could that be because I am a new user? Lliure albir (talk) 22:06, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think there may be some minimum amount of time a user has to be registered before s/he can move a page, but I don't know for sure. So maybe your best bet is to post the suggested name changes on the talk pages of each article Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:20, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Vézelay

Thanks for the textual adjustments of this article. English is not my native language (I'm Dutch) so any improvement is welcome. A few days ago I added the article Ustica. I would appreciate if you give it a short review. WiDi (talk) 10:15, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Sure thing. I'll have a look some time over the weekend.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:21, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

It was quite good. Most of what I changed had to do with the treatment of URLs, for which, see external links. But there will probably be a change to the standard format soon, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:41, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. WiDi (talk) 14:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:49, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Ta

For the edits at eyre highway - I have done it too many times in different ways to feel that enamoured of the 10 hour + stretches of nothing... will check it again - thanks again (last time - Eucla to Perth in one go... sigh, I dont think I'll ever try that again) sats (talk) 10:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it sounds deadly! There's a stretch of highway in southern California like that - 60 miles straight through desert. I've flown over it. I think it goes from LA to Las Vegas. People speed to avoid falling asleep at the wheel, so I've heard. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

English Variant Editing

Hi Ikan, I have been writing my contributions to South and North Korea in US English (I am myself British). I don't really accept that 'Commonwealth English' is a standard when no local English language variant exists, however Wikitravel policy seems vague on this point. Do you know of a way that that this issue can be resolved by explicit policy? Thanks! Andrew

Hi, Andrew. The current policy is essentially enunciated at Wikivoyage:Spelling. The key point: "If the destination has no history of using English and no clear preference for the variety to use, we prefer US English spelling." My feeling is that your approach is exactly right: That South Korea prefers US spellings and North Korea presumably prefers British spellings. There may be room to argue for a default to US spelling for North Korea, but I really don't see it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:19, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't seem like the biggest issue. I actually haven't seen any evidence that North Korea uses British English for official documents, therefore I assume US English should be the one used. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

It is crystal clear that US English is the variant to be used for South Korea.

However, I find it slightly comical that you think that the DPRK would specifically sanction US English in the same way their sworn enemies in the south do, Andrewssi2. What passes for official DPRK sites typically use non-US spelling (eg: http://www.naenara.com.kp/en/tourism/index.php?1 uses time-honoured and metres rather than "time-honored" and meters) and that non-US spelling version is also the one that most North Koreans I have met (and I have met a large number both inside and outside the DPRK) use. All the official forms for tourists in use in North Korea that I have seen (eg: hotel registration forms and meal ordering) use (relatively good and correct) non-US spellings - but using the OED idiosyncracy of -ize rather than -ise.

This may change very suddenly of course if the current Kim family tyrant has another whim.

I agree that our wv:Spelling policy page is less than clear at the moment. To see why, you can read through the interminable argy bargy at Wikivoyage_talk:Spelling.

For a clearer statement of what I also believe to be the current working practice here at Wikivoyage, you might like to read the page from which we forked a while back: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Spelling&oldid=2028262 (a lot of people put a lot of effort into that site and it's a pity to see it go to waste).

If you ever visit the DPRK - or even one of their diplomatic missions - you'll understand why I find your earlier stance that DPRK articles should exclusively use US English ever so slightly risible.

PS: I'm NOT British (huge conspiratorial grin). -- Alice^✉ 07:21, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with Alice here. North Korea is in China's sphere of influence, to the extent they pay attention to anyone, and clear enemies of the US. I would continue using British spellings for strictly North Korea articles. If there's a real question about that, it might be necessary to spend time discussing that at Talk:North Korea. But I would just do it, and not spend time discussing it on a talk page, trying to gain a consensus, since there are more important things to discuss at length. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Ikan Kekek is again spot on when he suggests using the discussion page of a particular article to seek a consensus to change the spelling variety of English where a consistent particular variety has been established already on non-destination articles or where the destination has no clear link to a particular variety. In the proximate case, most of our current editors for our DPRK articles (including, I presume, yourself) are happier with non-US varieties. (Including our resident IP apologists for the DPRK regime). -- Alice^✉ 08:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Alice, Ikan. I actually really don't mind which version of English is used, just that there would be a clear policy around it and that policy that could be clearly applied to all Wikivoyage articles. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:40, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I think we really can't do that. It would look very odd to have articles about Britain in American English and articles about the US in British English, and enforcing either policy would waste loads of time and cause lots of pretty justified offense. The most we can do is be consistent for each country. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:43, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I know that "lists" are anathema to a lot of stalwarts here, but I really do think it would save a lot of (ultimately not very productive) typing if we could just tweak policy to specify the 113 odd countries where there is a relatively clear varietal connection. Those 113 probably will account for more than 85% of all editing on Wikivoyage. I agree that the remaining 96 odd "countries" may be slightly problematic, but my idea of an approach to their respective governments for adjudication would probably only leave 3-7 "undecideds".-- Alice^✉ 09:00, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree, but that probably needs to be discussed in a policy page to gain the indubitable, exhausting consensus... Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Alice's suggestion is actually what I meant around policy clarification. I'm not sure what mechanism in WikiVoyage (if any) could be employed to achieve the consensus --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:53, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

As Alice suggested, you may want to slog through the preexisting discussion at Wikivoyage Talk:Spelling and give your 2 pence. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:23, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Routebox

Hello Ikan Kekek,
Just for practice I played with the Maastricht routebox. Is this a correct way? I ask this as the route numbers change at the Belgium border. A2 becomes A25, and N278 changes into N79.

Routes through archive

Amsterdam ← Geleen ←	N  S	→ Belgium Border (6 km) → A25 Liège
END ← Heerlen ←	E  w	→ END
Aachen ← Vaals ←	E   w	→ Belgium Border → N79 Sint-Truiden

WiDi (talk) 12:35, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I was to fast with my question. I found Wikivoyage:Routebox navigation. I think this is better. Do you agree? WiDi (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Routes through archive

Amsterdam ← Geleen ←	N  S	→ Belgium Border (6 km) → Liège
END ← Heerlen ←	E  w	→ END
Aachen ← Vaals ←	E   w	→ Belgium Border → Sint-Truiden

Yes, the second one looks better. I'd say, go ahead and put the routebox in. In the event someone thinks it can be improved (which I doubt), they can always edit it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:39, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Croatia

Thanks for the support. I'll be patient. :)

The reason I mentioned possible hesitation from contributions to the project by users from Croatia if inapropriate grouping would remain was not intended to be a form of pressure or threat, but based on cognition I have that some very deligent and laborious users (and admins) of Wikipedia in Croatian language don't contribute to the Wikipedia in English. Just because of their experience with similar things on en.wiki regarding favouring mental concepts instead of knowledge about Croatia history and culture. People don't like to fight against windmills. Maybe what I mentioned is the reason why en.wiki isn't so clear about Croatia as a Central European and Mediterranean country. I wouldn't like if that problem would appear here as well and I'm pretty convinced it won't because wikivoyage has excellent The traveller comes first rule you pointed to me. So I think and hope consensus will eventually be made to respect the rule properly in this subject too. Please have understanding if my English is not always correct.

Now I'm gonna spend some time exploring the project in order to start contributing articles. All the best, Vrkach (talk) 00:18, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

All good points, in my opinion. Thanks.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:51, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Avalon vacation rentals

Would you care to weigh in on Talk:Avalon#Vacation Rentals? Thanks! Mcd51 (talk) 01:19, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Unconstructive threat

I have removed your constructive threats from my page: in future, please could you keep discussions civil.—The preceding comment was added by 203.163.103.7 (talk • contribs)

I told you that you needed to stop edit warring and could be blocked if you continued. I think that's more civil than blocking you without warning, and the warning may have been what led to this discussion, so I'm unconvinced it had a bad effect but will certainly avoid mentioning these things if you continue being constructive. We want anyone who is here to improve the guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi - you were being unconstructive & aggresive. Also, your claim that "You've given no good reason to change" could easily be classed as hypocritical considering your lack of a summary for this edit [19], and it is also incorrect as I gave an explanation (in the same vein as another by you) here [20] —The preceding comment was added by User:203.163.103.7 (talk • contribs)

I don't have to give the same editing summary twice for the same edit, and the fact that Taiwan is not in the US is not a meaningful explanation of why British spellings should be used, because Taiwan isn't in Britain, either, as you of course know. I don't see a point in discussing this further. Go ahead and edit the content, as you discussed below, but leave the American spellings unless you can give a good reason for why they should be changed to British spellings. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:46, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Taipei article

Please advise:

• Why spellings unique to the US should be used for non-US articles.

There are quite a few discussions on WikiVoyage around this very point. Usually each country uses one variant of English for local usage (either American English or 'Commonwealth' English). Taiwan would be regarded as using American English. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:33, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• Why you describe the 'metro' as 'subway'. The former is by far more universally used, whilst the latter has other meanings.
• Why you added 'pavements (US English: sidewalks)'. I can find no other comparable explanations, such as 'subway (English: metro)'.
• Why you added the personal commentary 'My favorite is the kobe beef pot and mushroom pot.'
• Why you replaced the widely recognised 'air-con' with 'A/C', which is less widely used and is open to misunderstanding.
• Why you added a number of unnecessary exclaimation marks '!'. —The preceding comment was added by 203.163.103.7 (talk • contribs)

First, please sign talk pages by typing 4 tildes in a row (~~~~).

Second, I didn't add anything: I just reverted your edits, which introduced unnecessary British English. I don't have a dispute with the other changes you are mentioning, but we've had a problem lately with people changing Taiwan articles to British English unnecessarily, so I'm a bit sensitive about this. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

• "Second, I didn't add anything" Then you simply blind reverted changes? And then posted an unconstructive threat to me about my edits!
• "we've had a problem lately with people changing Taiwan articles to British English unnecessarily" Why is this a 'problem', especially as 'British' English is what is used outside the US?

<ANSWER> The is factually incorrect. 'British' English is not the accepted English spelling system in every country outside the US. Taiwan is a case in point. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:12, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Andrew, I don't think I would spend time "correcting" a Taiwan article that was originally written in British English, but I think it's clear that Taiwan has a strong cultural connection with the US, and not nearly so strong with Britain (though there are longstanding ties with Hong Kong), so if anyone _changes_ American to British English in Taiwan articles, I will revert. Similarly, someone recently "corrected" British English in an article about a place in Belgium to American English, and I reverted that. Basically, I look askance as language trolls and believe there should be a strong reason to change one form of standard English to another. So I will, for example, change American to British spellings in articles about India, but I won't change spellings in either direction for places like Ethiopia, where I'm totally unclear on whether anyone there would care what spellings are used. Anyone who changes from one standard form of English to another should have a good reason for doing so, and explain it in their editing summary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:42, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ikan, I am not user 203.163.103.7. I was responding to user 203.163.103.7 --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:44, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I know that, but I felt like further addressing your comment, anyway. Thanks, Andrew.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:47, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I figured out what happened. The bulleted list is all from the IP user, and you replied to the first question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:50, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Adirondack Park

I promise, it's not a state park [21] ;) It's taxonomy is weird, but there's more info at w:Adirondack Park#Today. --Peter ^Talk 05:05, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

OK. That wasn't made clear at the official sites I looked at, but it sounds authoritative. Thanks, Peter. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:13, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Cuba

Cuba is a democracy and has not been a single party state since the 90's. Stop spreading false information.

Undersc0re97|

I won't debate this. If you'd like to engage in political polemics, go to some other site where people are interested. This is a travel guide, not a political debating club. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:27, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

User blocks

Hey Ikan - re User talk:194.83.56.222, we've updated our policies to allow blocking of vandals if they are blocked for the same offense on other Mediawiki wikis (Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#User ban). In this case the user is blocked for six months for vandalism on Wikipedia - w:Special:Contributions/194.83.56.222 - so definitely don't feel that you need to offer too much leniency here. -- Ryan • (talk) • 14:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that user was blocked on any other wiki.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi

Long time no speak. Toodyay is a country town which I was in yesterday, trying to encourage the local history society, and council to be part of a wikimedia australia QR project in the town. I think the most recent edits apart from mine are put in a misguided good faith, so I havent directly accused of being touts - despite the user name. I have left a note, welcome and expect either a re-visit, or re-edit is possible. It would be great if you could have it on your watch... thanks sats (talk) 08:48, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Sure thing. Lately, I've been busy looking through articles I edited a long time ago and doing things like adding photos from Commons that weren't available in the Wikitravel days. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:50, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

excellent anything to help the old thing along - not even 6 months in this current form and sure looks like it needs some piccies!! sats (talk) 09:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Geo WV icon on map

Hello Ikan. I have a question. If I put Geo coordinates in an article and watch the result, the map does not show the Wikivoyage icon. For Instance Eindhoven and Nuenen. Can you tell me what I'm doing wrong or do I have to be patient and wait for an automatic bot doing this. Thanks. WiDi (talk) 09:30, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, WiDi. I'm sorry; I'm ignorant about how Geo coordinates work. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:32, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Reverted your reversion on Wikivoyage:Policies

Hello, I reverted your edit per Wikivoyage:Autoconfirmed_users. Just to be sure, it is four days, correct? Or is Wikivoyage:Autoconfirmed_users incorrect? Surfer43 (talk) 21:47, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I actually don't know, but thanks for linking to a policy page. I'll assume the information you've linked to is accurate, unless someone who knows for sure contradicts it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:39, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe that's what it is on all WMF wikis. Some wikis require a certain number of edits as well, but I don't think this one does. --Rschen7754 04:26, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

It was 30 on WT for autopatrolled. (I don't think we even had autoconfirmed over there.) Four days is probably right, if I'm reading this discussion correctly, but only someone that can view LocalSettings.php on the server itself can verify that. -- D. Guillaume (talk) 04:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Possibly hacked account

Hi. I'm User:electAbuzzzz. I'm afraid my account might've been hacked, although no use of it has been made since... I'm turning to you simply because you're the admin who made me autopatrolled. A few days ago another site of which I'm a member has been hacked, and now I can't log in here on Wikimedia. I'm 99.999% sure I'm using the correct password, but the worrying part is that when I try to reset the password, it says that "There is no email address recorded for user ElectAbuzzzz", even though I have the email-confirmation mail in my inbox. Anything we can do about that? I'm assuming you can check the IP, or have me send you the confirmation mail. Thanks --109.226.61.76 15:17, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, FYI I'm looking into this. --Peter ^Talk 18:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Peter. Sorry to hear this, ElectAbuzzzz. Hang in there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:56, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Somewhat to my surprise, it looks like there isn't really a process for dealing with hijacked accounts. We have a local process that could work, though. If you can still log in to WT, do so, post a statement letting us know that you posted this message here, and also forward me your confirmation email. If that all checks out, register a new account on Wikivoyage, and I will merge your ElectAbuzzzz account history into your new account, and delete the old account. Please do this ASAP, as the way the WMF handles accounts is going to change in the near future. --Peter ^Talk 16:59, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, this is me from my new account. I had to already create it in order to be able to e-mail you (which only registered users can do). Please respond to my e-mail, so that I could forward you my confirmation mail. Here is my message on WT. Once I'll send you my confirmation e-mail, that's all you asked. Thanks for your help! --Buzzy (talk) 10:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

You've provided (and exceeded) the same amount of evidence we require to claim the contributions history of a legacy account, so I feel comfortable merging your ElectAbuzzzz contributions into your new account. --Peter ^Talk 21:20, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Travemünde

Thank you for your kind support of the cross-wiki discussion concerning Travemünde. I started to like that so much that i intend to bring to star level until the presentation. I have completed the entries/content of all sections and hope to nominate it some time next week for star. Would you be so kind to cross check all the little nasty things a non-native English speaker might miss? Thank you in advance and best regards, jan (talk) 11:49, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

P.S. I asked Pashly/Sandy the same thing because he started a while ago to check what i do in parts.

I'm very jetlagged because I just got back to New York from Berlin last night, but I will check when I have the chance. Thanks a lot! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Ikan, take your time. Star noms usually take months. Hope you had a great time in Berlin. It is a great city. Regards, jan (talk) 05:37, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your proof reading and real-time corrections. It is very much appreciated. I will be on holidays from mid-August and hope to have the first round of feedback done until then. Best regards, jan (talk) 14:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

You're most welcome. Thanks for adding the content! Best regards, Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Hotels

Thanks, I've been finding Wikivoyag a useful guide to hotels in unfamiliar cities lately, so I thought I'd add some of the ones I've been pleased with in more comfortable terrain. DavidArthur (talk) 17:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! The kinds of descriptions you're putting in those hotel listings are very helpful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

hills around Jerusalem

Hi. if you look at Wikipedia, so some of that Mountains have a lot of information and tourist places. פארוק (talk) 22:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It also has lots of information about other attractions, like the Louvre Museum, that don't get their own article in Wikivoyage. All useful information about those mountains should be possible to cover in appropriate district articles for Jerusalem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Stop threatening me

I've helped a lot to improve this article, but if you want to suspend my account, I don't care, I'm offering a great help in the article about Colombia. You're a tyrant that tries to remove information completely correct.

"A country twice the size of France, and with a diversity of landscapes and cultures that would be hard to find even in countries five times its size, Colombia potentially belongs in the upper echelons of the world's most incredible travel destinations, now you can enjoy one of Latin America's best kept secrets for you and an increasing numbers of tourists." - This information I not added it, this information was in the article for a long time and seems completely correct.

I've traveled to Colombia and I am quite sure that this information is not disproportionate. You do not know Colombia, then I ask that you allow people who has visited Colombia edit this article.

what are you smoking?

That is not my ip, what are you smoking? --Theryx7 (talk) 02:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

That might be more convincing if you hadn't just edited his talk page from that IP. -- D. Guillaume (talk) 02:18, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Don't bother me, I have nothing to do with the vast ignorance of users such as D. Guillaume or Ikan Kekek

Anyone can edit these pages --Theryx7 (talk) 03:17, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you denying that this edit is yours? -- D. Guillaume (talk) 03:20, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

You can read this information (One intermediate revision by one user not shown).

Is your stupidity low or high? --Theryx7 (talk) 03:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Field decoration

	The Barnstar of Patience
	is awarded in recognition of extraordinary patience when trying to gently nudge editors in a more collegiate direction. Have a couple of drinks on me, Ikan Kekek! W. Franke-mailtalk20:09, 18 July 2013 (BST)

Thanks, Frank. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:22, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Judaean Mountains

the Judaean Mountains are not in the Shefela. the Shefela is much lower place. can you please fix that ?. thank you. פארוק (talk) 19:41, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Respectfully, no, I can't do that by myself. Another admin (I forget who) already explained that if you would like to argue for a different regional division of Israel on this site, you need to do so at Talk:Israel and try to achieve a consensus for your proposal. Things are done by consensus here. And I don't have an opinion about your proposal, so you'll need to convince others. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:43, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

User:64.252.113.127

Hi! Just so you know, that's the "Test, just a test" spammer who spams those messages across multiple wikis and is the subject of many global blocks. --Rschen7754 08:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh. Thanks. In that case... Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:24, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Need to develop compassion

Hi there. I am a long term Wikiproject person. Recently, after taking a lot of time to add some new content, you changed it and I had to tediously go back and modify it again to retain the original meaning (whilst conforming to minor stylistic change). Earlier, some of my photography was deleted. I was shocked to find that in both of these bad experiences cases, *you were involved*. Could you please think a little more about the effect of your actions on others before policy-thumping? To be frank, you come across as a bit of an asshole. Pratyeka (talk) 05:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Try being less "frank" and more flexible next time. I replied on your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:10, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Re: Flags in banners

Hi Ikan, thank you for bringing that to my attention. I wasn't fully aware that adding flags to banners was still in discussion before being adopted into a policy. As you can probably tell, I'm still getting used to Wikivoyage, but I love the site! I'll be more careful next time. Vacationer (talk) 15:30, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. I really appreciate your respect for the need for consensus. Happy editing and please ask me any question you like (within reason, of course :-)

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:32, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Ikan, there are still flags in the banners on Sweden, Norway, and Somalialand...shouldn't these be removed as well if we've yet to reach a consensus on these decorations? Vacationer (talk) 13:27, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, indeed they should be. Thanks, Vacationer.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:53, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

With respect, I disagree.

Unlike most banner images, the flag is not just a "decoration" or eye- candy. It has a practical value if you are looking out for it on some road signs near borders.

As I understand the way that consensus is supposed to work on this site, the status quo should normally obtain until there is a consensus to change something.

Most of our country level articles have featured a small image of that country's flag for many years. It may well be that a new consensus that "it would be helpful for the traveller to have to go off-site to somewhere like Wikipedia to see in advance what that country's flag looks like" will shortly emerge - but I don't think we've reached that point yet. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 20:04, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Adding flags to banners was a new idea, and has met significant community opposition. If you wish to contribute constructively, please join the discussion regarding where to put the flag. --Peter ^Talk 20:28, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Unless I've misunderstood the history, the main motivation for having these horizontal minimalist ToC's was to avoid "squeezed worm syndrome" - not remove flags from our articles. Since we don't vote here, there would not be much that I could add to that discussion. Until and unless there is a consensus to remove flags it really is rather disingenuous and a disservice to the traveller to remove them from banners. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 21:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem with flags being in articles, though I'd rather they be somewhere other than the pagebanner. However, your discussing this here is not nearly as likely to persuade anyone to change the current policy than if you choose to discuss policy matters outside of a user talk page. Meanwhile, I think you're aware of how consensus works here: It's required to change a policy, not to keep the status quo, which will continue to be enforced until it is actively changed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Panama City Entry being deleted

Hi Ikan - I got tour message. Your message said that business owners and employees are not allowed to add listings. The page you refered me to - Welcome Business Owners - says business owners and employees of a business are allowed to add entries to the Wiki. Is there a better way to add the entry? Maybe you can help me to do it the right way. I tried to use all the fields correctly. Nevertheless a hotel listing is important to let travelers know where to stay thus I want to add it. Please let me know. Thanks. -- Fernando • (talk)

Moved to end of page - will reply in your talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:22, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Video entry into travel pages

Hello, I checked the discussion page and it seems people are still discussing it. The strange part is Wikipedia is trying to allow and develop all forms of information to spread better knowledge to everybody. But especially some people limiting videos in one part of Wikipedia sounds like some anarchy thing. I will involve into that main discussion thanks for your notice. Orgio89 (talk) 06:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Indeed feel free to give your input, but please keep in mind that this is Wikivoyage, not part of Wikipedia. If part of your argument is that this site is really part of Wikipedia, it is unlikely to be well received.

Also, while some discussion is still occurring, this site operates based on consensus, and since there is strong opposition from more than one or two people to allowing video files on this site, it's a foregone conclusion that the existing policy that prohibits them from being linked will be sustained for some time to come (probably years).

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:38, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Wilno

Actually there was a request here (Talk:Vilnius) and then you have said it was a 'good idea' to create a redirect. Sorry if i did it in a wrong way but it clearly says how to create a redirect - Wikivoyage:How to redirect a page

1Arena1hu (talk) 22:23, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I remember now. But I didn't realize there was another place called Wilno that had an article. If there were no other place called Wilno, a redirect would be a good idea. But since there is, it is not a viable idea. I think the "other uses" idea in the currently-existing Wilno article is the best solution. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:04, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I see that Globe-trotter dealt with this issue. Sorry for the confusion, but everything has worked out for the best. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Bethuadahari

In Bethuadahari for the Tourist Lodge the ONLY place for booking is in the main office of the department in Kolkata. They are not agents but owners and a government department at that. There is no booking at Bethudahari. This is the system with all Tourist & Forest Department bookings of the Govt. of West Bengal. So, please don't delete such details. You may delete all booking details of Kolkata AGENTS, but not the Kolkata Offices of owners, which is easily identifiable. As regards, the monitoring levels and authority. I am not really worried on that front. I am also sorry for some mistakes I made and it is good that you cautioned me against the same. Cheers. - Chandan Guha (talk) 06:08, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Chandan. Thanks for explaining. I will put that information back in, with the specifications you've given. However, we do need to include the location of the lodge in "address," so that travellers can find it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:12, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Such places don't have an address as such. It would just be Bethuadahari, which is not wanted. Later, I would try to get a location on the Google map. If available, I will place the coordinates. Thanks and cheers. - Chandan Guha (talk) 06:24, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Excellent. Thank you very much. All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:41, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Anonymous user issue

Hi Ikan, there is a rather aggressive anonymous user going around the north korea pages. Panmunjeom is a good example.

Since I cannot communicate with him/her, what is the best course of action? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 14:50, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I see. You can always try posting to their user talk page, but it doesn't look like that's likely to work. It's still the best course of action, though. I can post a warning about edit warring. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:27, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, by putting the block in the anonymous user at least has started writing on my User page rather than waging edit war on the page itself. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:55, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

We're watching him/her. Edit warring sucks.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:22, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ivan, it seems the user placed an abusive message on my talk page. (I deleted it, however it can be seen in the history). I have argued with him however have not been abusive towards them at any time. What can be done (if anything) for such an action by an anonymous user? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:11, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ikan Kekek - let's see about the claim "have not been abusive towards them at any time": [22]

With respect to both of you for caring about the content of articles here, I'll nevertheless say that I'm not very interested in trying to referee personal disputes. If you folks can't discuss content without it turning into a personal fight, I would strongly suggest you avoid each other's talk pages and write only on the talk pages of articles, and only about the content of those articles, not about anyone's behavior. As you know, all editors here (including admins) are volunteers, and as we don't get paid by the hour, we're not interested in wasting time policing bad behavior, and when that becomes necessary, suspensions of accounts can quickly follow. If they do, I can assure you that we can see who among you is the more belligerent and who is the more constructive and has contributed more content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:39, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Nelson

The edit summary for this edit mentioned touting.

I've been meaning to add a lot of material to all our Nelson articles for quite some while, but I've been considerably distracted and had my morale sapped by all these wicked and lying sockpuppet allegations. It's really not what an old age pensioner like me should be having to deal with.

Unlike Nelson, Lancashire or Nelson, British Columbia, Nelson, NZ has some particularly fine examples of Victorian architecture such as Fellworth House, Melrose House and Amber House. However, I think we need to distinguish between the physical houses themselves and the traveller oriented businesses that may operate from them. In the case of Fellworth House, I see no problem at all about having a "See" listing for that and a separate "Sleep" listing for the Golden Lodge accommodation business that operates from part of the upper floor there (and, possibly, the Dentist if it were ever decided to list those in destination articles). Same situation with a "See" listing for Melrose Historic House and Gardens that's owned by Nelson City Council and a separate "Eat" (or "Drink") listing) for the privately owned and operated Melrose Cafe business. Those 2 cases are straightforward because the names are sufficiently dissimilar to have two separate listings without it being in any way regarded as touting. Now I would like to get around to making a "See" entry for Amber House - but now your edit has complicated that by meaning I have to choose between deleting the bed and breakfast business you rather misleadingly re-named and creating a "See" listing (which will be nothing to do with that accommodation for travellers B&B business). I also think that the licensed and registered actual trading name that you changed conforms to the spirit of the policy here: Wikivoyage:Spelling#Proper_names. I'd much prefer to get your understanding rather than be accused of edit warring. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 21:58, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

All I did was to eliminate ALL CAP TEXT and a promotional phrase with an exclamation point. If the B&B is really called "AMBER HOUSE - at the centre!", the way around the problem is to give as the name `Amber House (officially called "AMBER HOUSE - at the centre!")'. My previous experience is that we don't normally respect corporate ALL CAP naming, except sometimes for acronyms. As for the rest of your ideas, they sound reasonable to me, on the face of it, but are probably better discussed at the article's talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:01, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the B&B is really called "AMBER HOUSE - at the centre!", complete with exclamation mark: http://www.travelbug.co.nz/nelson-accommodation

To give as the name of the "Sleep" listing: ‘Amber House (officially called "AMBER HOUSE - at the centre!")’ Just compounds the problem since it is even longer and draws undue attention to it (which was, I believe, the main reason we decided not to use black rather than the universal blue colour for listing names externally hyperlinked) and also muddies the distinction between the house itself (which existed before the street in which it is situate was even built, given a name or numbered) and the accommodation business that currently operates from there. If the business stops operating, the house will still exist as a "See" listing in its own right and I'd like to keep the plain and accurate "Amber House" name for that enduring "See" listing that I will write shortly. Did you know that one of my hobbies is Victorian architecture - which is how I started on Wikimedia projects in the first place? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 23:44, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Nope, I didn't know. Perhaps you might consider starting a Victorian architecture page here.

I take your points on the form of the listing, but I think it would be a good idea to get a consensus, so please feel free to copy this exchange to Talk:Nelson (New Zealand) for comments there. I would still argue that my suggested version clarifies things, but I wouldn't buck a consensus to just use the official name. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:49, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think my publisher would like that (grin). On the proximate topic, I think I'll wait until I start that "See" listing and revert your edit then. At that time the B&B business may have stopped trading and solved the problem and, if not and you still feel the same way, you can raise the issue on the Nelson, NZ discussion page. I also need to declare an interest in that I know many if not all of the owners of these Victorian houses in Nelson from when I was writing my book in 2005-2007. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 00:05, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't see it as a problem in the least that you know the owners of the houses in question. You see the problem with the sleep listing, though: The official name of the B&B looks like an advertisement. So somehow, it would be good to have a record available to readers/editors that that's the real official name, even if only by copying this exchange to the relevant talk page. If you don't, perhaps I will, with your permission.

~~

I'd prefer you didn't because I'm one of the minority of people here whose real life identity is relatively trivial to establish. If you wish to revert your change and add an HTML hidden comment, I think that would be more efficient than putting this huge splodge of text over a relatively trivial issue on the Nelson discussion page. I don't think anyone else is likely to gib at this after I finish the various "See" listings (the B&B had its real name in its listing at Wikitravel for more than six years before you thought it was a combination of shouting and a promotional phrase). By the way, what do I call you? "Ikan Kekek" is a bit long to type? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 00:41, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll take that suggestion under advisement. That could be a good idea. People call me Ikan or IK here, so those are OK. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:45, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:51, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, IK. If you like a copy-editing challenge, you might like to cast your eye over this section in my birth town of

Dresden#Stay_safe

eh? I wouldn't know where to begin --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 22:34, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure, Frank, I'll have a look when I have a decent chunk of free time.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:22, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

New York regions

Ikan, I'd appreciate your perspective (as a downstater) on the options I've laid out for adjusting the regions of New York State at Talk:New York (state)#Catskills, Hudson Valley, Capital District. I've put up some maps to help clarify the discussion. LtPowers (talk) 20:42, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, LtPowers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Incommunicado?

"08:15, 23 August 2013 Ikan Kekek blocked 1.120.150.75 with an expiry time of 2 hours (anonymous users only, account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page) (Vandalism)."

Thanks for being observant and giving this IP guidance on using article discussion pages. What's your rationale on not allowing the IP to edit own talk page, please? I would have thought we want to try and encourage this editor to be more collegiate and communicative? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 12:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I actually think a longer block is in order now but with the ability for it to communicate (if it wants to) why it is making these strange deletions. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 12:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Frank. It was because it was just for 2 hours. Although if someone is practicing vandalism, it might be a bad idea for them to be able to edit anything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Ikan Kekek. You have new messages at AndreCarrotflower's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Re: Brazil

Hi there! No worries, I should've probably checked these guidelines before. Thanks for the heads up. Pikolas (talk) 05:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

You bet. And don't worry too much about them. The most important thing is to keep putting up good content. Read the Manual of style and linked pages at your leisure.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:17, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Mindo - Ecuador Edits

Hi Ikan, you reverted all my edits on the Mindo page. I did include Links to the website mindonet.ec which is for the moment the only site about Mindo and there is NO official site. The site is under development with the purpose of offering not only tourists but also people from Mindo a platform including an events calendar, presentation of the different cultural initiatives and groups in the town, and a classifieds section for better reuse and sharing of resources. This effort is from Mindo for Mindo. It does not advertise and has a unique function to locate the different businesses on a OpenStreetmap. If this does not deserve to be mentioned in a travel guide like Wikivoyage where basically hotels and other businesses leave their advertising and directions then I am pretty disappointed by the site and not inclined to contribute more. I reverted your deletions and would appreciate if you could keep it that way. Greetings from Ecuador —The preceding comment was added by ArndZ (talk • contribs)

Hi. Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing 4 tildes at the end of the posts. So my reply to you is that (a) you need to read the external links guidelines and (b) you need to type this post (with a signature, please) in Talk:Mindo, to try to gain a consensus behind your site being an exception to the rule. We have rules here in order to prevent chaos, as thousands of sites could make claims fairly similar to yours, so if your site should be an exception, it wouldn't be just because you threaten to stop editing unless it is, nor because you say it doesn't advertise (but note that it does take classified advertising). In terms of businesses you see advertising, read don't tout, and please feel free to detout or delete any entries that are in violation of the policy instead of making global complaints about problems the volunteer admins here haven't had a chance to see. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

You were also touting: You mentioned your site with a link 3 or 4 times in the article. That kind of thing will get reverted every time. And I also note that your only edits (so far) were to tout your site, so threatening to stop editing just makes you sound unfriendly. Have a look at welcome, business owners for some ideas on how to actually help out here. Otherwise, happy trails! Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:48, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Hong Kong/Central

Dear Ikan,

thanks for editing the post for the Ovolo Hotel. I changed again the Price because it was mistake - didnt change the category but I think now it`s Splurge. Also added the 9000 Hong-Kong wide free WiFi Access Points because I guess a lot of travellers could safe a lot of money with this.

I`d like to add the other Ovolo-Hotels also is there something I have to keep in mind or would it work if I include them like the one I already did? Thanks for your support!

Just one additional question: you didnt accept the new "Boutique" category, but I guess a lot of travellers are interesed in Hotels apart from the mainstream ones - as I do when I travel. What do you think about this? —The preceding comment was added by 223.255.145.110 (talk • contribs)

You should just put it in the splurge category and indicate in the description that it's a boutique hotel. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:16, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

---

Hi Ikan, its me again ;-)

you removed the word "free" from our "free happy hour"!? Our "Happy Hour" is really FREE for our guest in all Ovolo Hotels!! the same for our Minibar and our Wifi in our Hotels.

I think you will find it was removed because you are using a non-standard definition of 'happy hour'. It might be better to rephrase it as 'free evening drinks'. Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:27, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Andrewssi, thanks for your advise. So our Name for this 'free evening drinks' is "free happy hour". What should be the best formulation for this? Maybe: "free evening drinks so called: free happy hour". I fully understand that it shouldn't be written in an advertising style. Thats why my question: What would work align with the policies here? Thanks a lot!

There isn't a policy for this (as far as I know). The problem is that the international definition of 'happy hour' is loosely that you buy one drink and get another one for free. That is what I would expect if I would stay at your hotel (and I stay a lot in Hong Kong). If you would like to offer me free drinks in the evening with no payment, then just call it 'free evening drinks'.

If you REALLY wanted to use the term 'happy hour', then how about: "The hotel offers a version of 'happy hour' where all the drinks are free" ? Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:03, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for not responding quickly during my travels abroad. Andrew has given you good advice. I'd also say that in the US, Happy Hour generally means that drinks are half price or priced at a particular lower-than-usual price (e.g., $5 shots of whiskey, $2 PBRs or what have you). Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:57, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Hello!

Hi! I'm new here in WikiVoyage and you're the first person who send message to me and offer me some help. Nice to meet you! I find you have edited Wikivoyage for a long time. If I do something wrong here. Please feel free to tell me. :-) In addition, do you when Chinese wikivoyage can be in use? It's still in Wikimedia Incubator. --Someone's Moving Castle (talk) 06:53, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't tell you what the status of the Chinese Wikivoyage is. I'll let you know if I see anything wrong here, though. Meanwhile, I'm really liking your edits. Chinese destinations need a lot of work, so I'm glad to see more work being done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Harsh?

A bit harsh for an outline article?. --Inas (talk) 05:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

There's a huge rash of these kinds of edits, and I think they're all by the same person, who uses several IPs and never replies to any messages on his/her user talk page or pays any attention to editing summaries. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:14, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I just tried a friendly message on the IP's page. I predict with great confidence that the message will be ignored, but I hope I'm wrong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:29, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

In the usual way you'd be right, Inas.

However, I agree that IK is very probably right in this analysis. This character pops up in a huge range and variety of edits (almost certainly from Australian IP's) and scattering various "fun facts" gleaned from Wikipedia. These fun factoids display no local knowledge and to allow them to remain involves a huge amount of double checking - never mind fleshing them out. I wish they'd stop it and communicate too! --W. Frank^email_talk 12:08, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

At first I thought that User talk:123.211.111.136 was some sort of crazy bot, but I have now discovered 2 good edits among the dozens of empty section headings and copyright infringements he's been inserting, but boy, is it a waste of time trawling through all those nonsense edits. I think he needs to be blocked for longer periods if he/she/it refuses to communicate. To me, it's obvious from the Australian IP and some very finicky English grammar edits that he/she/it actually has a reasonable command of English. Sorry for all your valuable time that he/she/it is wasting. --W. Frank^email_talk 21:37, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it's pretty frustrating. The user clearly is not a native English speaker, but that doesn't account for his/her complete ignoring of user talk page messages and editing summaries. And this user uses a bunch of different IPs, making blocking pretty ineffective. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:44, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

It is serious though. Now he's breaching the copyright of http://www.lonelyplanet.com/tahiti-and-french-polynesia/sights/architecture/cathedrale-saint-michel. One weeks block for anonymous users only on the 7 IP addresses he uses, please, I need a rest. --W. Frank^email_talk 02:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

That's probably justified. I think I have to deliberate, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I'll just add visitable attractions back. Thanks. --Inas (talk) 05:13, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you as always, Inas. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:20, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Source recognition

I understand focusing on primary sources... but not on excluding source info. I created a section on the related policy to discuss it. Thanks! Sj (talk) 06:03, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Cool. I'll just mention that it's usually possible to include information about useful links on the talk page of an article if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:20, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Photography usage

Apologies for resizing portrait-oriented photos – I wasn't aware that there were restrictions on making them smaller, as I've seen pages with photos of all sizes. I was trying to match the long edges, so that each image takes the same amount of real estate on the page and none dominates the others. I haven't found a help page yet which clarifies this.

On a related note, I'd like to ask your advice re: Doha. Previously there were several older images of well-known buildings which were deleted apparently due to 'freedom of panorama' violations. From my readings here it seems possible to work around this by uploading locally, as Wikimedia images are hosted in the US which does not have the same restrictions. I could not figure out how to upload my images locally to Wikivoyage, so guessed that uploading directly to Wikimedia Commons was appropriate. Can you advise if this is indeed the correct protocol?

The images in question: Museum of Islamic Arts and Fanar Cultural Center.

Thanks! StellarD (talk) 07:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi, StellarD, and thanks again for your wonderful work! I'm not sure what the apologies are for; if you resized photos, you probably had a good reason to do so, and there are no restrictions I know of in making photos smaller; it's just a matter of judgment.

My understanding is that Commons deletes photos of copyrighted buildings and public art, so such photos have to be kept locally on Wikivoyage's servers. Unfortunately, I don't remember how to do that. I hope someone who does comes by to tell us how to do it.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:05, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Non-free content LtPowers (talk) 00:02, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the policy link, LtPowers. The "how-to" was addressed in the Pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:11, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

I just read your post on the Pub thread. Thanks for clarifying. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:12, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Inline Links

Hi Ikan Thanks for the guidelines. My reason for adding those links was that someone had added those people (Dadasaheb Phalke, Pt Paluskar) as prominent members from the city of Nashik. While these people are well known to Indians, I felt that non-Indians might find them unfamiliar and therefore unhelpful. Hence I added those links. However, as you say, since the guidelines are such, I will try and add some useful material in the text itself. Thanks, Anannya

Of course. I understand completely. But because we operate on consensus here, and since there's no consensus to allow other-subject Wikipedia links, with about half the people who took part in a discussion about that resolutely opposed, we can't use them. Thanks a lot, Anannya.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Steve Wicks

I suggest you review an editors complete work before your hair trigger causes you to revert hours of hard work, or are you trying to antagonise contributors into quitting? If that is your intention, please make it clear so that I can email Jimmy Wales: jwales@wikia.com to inform him.

Wicks Steve (talk) 05:49, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

No Sir, I don't want to antagonize you, nor do I want you to quit. I am not aware of your contributions outside of Wikivoyage, and you haven't put anything up on your user page to tell me anything about you (not that you have to). I just react to what I read, and there are consensus guidelines on this site that need to be followed, and avoiding the appearance of touting is one of the more important ones. I pointed you to pages you can read. As I see Ryan said on your user talk page, it's not difficult for you to see the edits I reverted. If you go to the history of any article, you can see any previous version of the article. For example, this is the history page for the Chippenham article. All you need to do is edit the listings to bring them into conformity with our policies, and then put the edited versions of the entries up. Thanks for Jimmy Wales' email address, though.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:24, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your response, I fully understand your concerns regarding the appearance of touting. I didn't feel the need to rectify the first edit prior to you reverting it some hours ago as a simple error made it non visible. It was the instant revert of my second edit that was upsetting, as it had taken quite a number of hours to get right. If you still feel any part of it does not conform, please let me know which part(s) specifically so that I can address it, and for my future reference.

Wicks Steve (talk) 06:33, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I just posted a message on your talk page that I hope explains most of it. Please feel free to ask any question you have, and I'm sorry your early experience on Wikivoyage has been disagreeable. I completely understand why you were upset and alarmed. If my action had irrevocably deleted your work, I would never have done it, but would have sent you the content, instead.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:41, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks

Hi Ikan, First of all, i would like to thank you for helping me on the article of ruwais. I was thinking if you could help me on getting a cover photo for the page. Thanks Djsamyak (talk) 14:58, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

You're most welcome, and thanks for creating and putting content into the article! If you mean a pagebanner, I have never learned how to make one, and as far as I can tell, the only photo of Ruwais, UAE that in Wikimedia Commons is the one I posted. Do you live near there or travel there often? If so, perhaps you could take some more photos and one could be made into a pagebanner. Or possibly, the photo I posted could be made into one.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:40, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you and goodbye

Dear Ikan,

before i'm leaving and i wanted to leave you some words. My respect for you is huge and if any word by myself offended you, please accept my sincere apology. I think you are the kindest and best mannered administrator here and i'm amazed how calm and consistently you handle the situation. I'm very bitter that there is no trust in my activities on WV and you have been the only supporter. My bullshit bingo argumentation is purely directed on LtPowers who quotes policy but don't get active.

Reflecting the ongoing discussion, i listened yesterday to Smetana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A1_vlast and i hope there will be a future after the current rough waters. All the best for you, jan (talk) 08:02, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm very sorry to see you go. Godspeed to you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:08, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to see you go Jan. Please seriously re-consider returning in some capacity. --Saqib (talk) 08:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Jan, I should add that I understand what you're speaking of. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:36, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Debate

Thank you for dropping the note on my talk page. You refer to discussions about links with sister projects. I wonder if you could put a link as regards where I might find such discussions.Leutha (talk) 11:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure thing. You'll find extensive discussion at Wikivoyage talk:Sister project links, especially starting at Wikivoyage talk:Sister project links#Inline links to Wikipedia. I would suggest reading through all of it before advancing a new argument.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Same commuting Ozzie

I fear... --W. Frank^email_talk 17:07, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/1.120.3.182 yet another IP from down under with similar edits... ϒpsilon (talk) 07:17, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm actually really curios about this users motivation.. he/she could spend all this time really improving one article rather than spending all their time adding a few words of near zero value to lots of articles. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 07:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Who knows? This is undoubtedly the same user, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

And he/she is back again: User_talk:Saqib#Difficult_User --Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:06, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I have proposed a three day ban here: Wikivoyage:User_ban_nominations#User:124.177.165.57_now_User:1.120.3.182.E2.80.8E --Andrewssi2 (talk) 13:42, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Re: Restaurant listings

I can try to add some descriptions, but I'm not sure how to figure out prices, since it depends a lot on what you order. Should I give a range ($40-70) or try to figure out a hypothetical "standard" meal? -- Ypnypn (talk) 13:35, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Anything is helpful. I've sometimes posted the price of a meal and sometimes (when I could see a clear online menu to remind myself) the range of prices of different categories of items (e.g., Appetizers, Soup, Salad, Mains, Sides, Desserts). Thanks a lot.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:24, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Vianden

Hi Ikan Kekek, if you have time, would you (as a native speaker of English, I think) be willing to proof-read the Vianden article? I've expanded the content but it would be good if someone could correct the remaining spelling/grammar mistakes and any other issues they might encounter. There's no hurry, I would just appreciate an extra eye on the article and couldn't find any general request page for proof-reading. Thank you! JuliasTravels (talk) 20:54, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure, Julia. I'll have a look when I have a chance. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:29, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

You did a great job! I put in some edits. When a map is added, this could be a good Off the Beaten Path article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:49, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, that was fast service indeed! Thank you. I've been struggling with the geo coordinates and a map, but I can't seem to make it work, so I don't think that's going to happen soon. Fortunately, it's a tiny town and a map is hardly needed. There's almost no way to walk around and not encounter all the sights and restaurants. So I'm comfortable leaving it. JuliasTravels (talk) 09:33, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Ashmore and Cartier

At the best is a place either crawling with para-military Australian customs/border proetetcion personnel or illegal immigrants or Indonesian fishermen - hardly a destination - all i can think of is emergency stops in the event of sunk ships/crashed planes - we dont have any templates for dont go there unless it is to save your life at all? sats (talk) 09:30, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

No, we don't, but I think readers will get the point. Very nice to see you. Apa khabar? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:32, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Sulit sekali, keterangan di tempat yang lain... sats (talk) 09:35, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Baiklah. Selamat malam dari New York. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:36, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

goddamm i miss new york!!!!sats (talk) 09:49, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Let me know if you come for a visit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:08, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Da Nang

Hey—just a note to acknowledge your revert of the Youtube links added to Da Nang—I guess I got carried away and forgot I was on a Wikimedia project for a bit ;) My bad. Thanks for the oversight and I'll make sure to do better in future! --Dragfyre (talk) 18:55, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, no need to do a "mea culpa" over this; your impulses were all to the good. And thanks for adding all that great content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:57, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Re: The Wikivoyage Barncompass

Thank you for The Wikivoyage Barncompass. Massimo Telò (talk) 08:44, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome! Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:47, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Bohol

I could understand the need for the {{Wikipedia}} template to provide attribution for material sourced from Wikipedia (which is necessary to comply with the licensing requirements under the cc-by-sa-3.0 license used by both WV and WP) if there were still some material in the Wikivoyage article that comes from the current version of Wikipedia. However, it seems that was all removed long ago. What's the particular part(s) that still use WP prose (as opposed to re-written facts), please? --118.93.47.31 09:38, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know, because I haven't checked the Wikipedia article lately. I do know that when that template was put in, there was material borrowed from the Wikipedia article. You're presenting an interesting argument that has not been topical before: Namely, that content borrowed from an earlier, superseded version of a Wikipedia article no longer requires a citation. I actually have no idea whether that's correct or not, as I've never come across such a situation before. If you know for sure this is correct, I will support you in once again removing the template, with the stipulation in Talk:Bohol that there is no longer an evident overlap in content between the current versions of Wikivoyage:Bohol and Wikipedia:Bohol. If you're not completely sure this is correct, it would be a good topic to broach at the Travellers' pub.

Thanks for your thoughtful dialogue and contributions so far. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:48, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to bump in, just wanted to point out a recent discussion in the Pub regarding that same template: Wikivoyage:Travellers'_pub#placement_of_Template:Wikipedia. JuliasTravels (talk) 10:16, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

So maybe the template is never needed in the article space and should be moved to the talk page for each relevant article? But what about this case? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:25, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, the in-article template is (in my opinion) never needed. Determining whether any contribution is needed requires some research, however, in order to find if there are no overlapping wordings but also if the "sort" of information (e.g. the choice of which attractions are listed) is sufficiently different. Personally, I'm typically too lazy to find all of that out when there's such a simple solution as just mentioning it in the history. If any of you is confident that there's no content left that requires attribution, just deleting would be okay, but otherwise I'd just give a link to the wp article in the summary, when removing the template. JuliasTravels (talk) 11:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Ikan Kekek: I see now that what I wrote was not clear - sorry! My view is that while our article contains any copyrighted material copied from any version of Wikipedia (superseded or otherwise) it may conceivably be appropriate for the template to remain. However, once our article has been re-worded so that it no longer contains exemplars of non-trivial text from any version of Wikipedia then the templated attribution is redundant and should be removed.

I do agree with JuliasTravels that making this judgement can be laborious and challenging and it may be more efficient simply to link to the WP article in the edit summary, when removing the template - which is what I now intend to do. --118.93.47.31 21:04, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, and sorry for being confused about the proper procedures. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:09, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

This has been an educational exchange for me but I do think it is more important to remove the hard-coded active hyperlinks to (the very censorious and dysfunctional) Wikitravel site on the majority of this site's pages if you ever want to get any visitors from search engines like Google. Most searchers don't go past the first two or three results you know. --118.93.47.31 22:25, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm very much aware of this problem. Unfortunately, unless Wikimedia Legal changes their minds about what kind of notification needs to be on the affected pages, there may not be much we can do about it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:27, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Where may I read this (mythical?) legal opinion, please? On the face of it, this (mythical?) legal opinion seems to fly in the face of the requirements of the cc-by-sa-3.0 license used by Wikitravel, Wikivoyage and Wikipedia unless this was a (secret) clause in the out of court settlement with Internet Brands. Do they realise that this (mythical?) strange decision dooms the English language Wikivoyage to be inferior to Wikitravel in most search engine results forever (or at least until search engines value "mirror" sites as highly as "original" sites - which probably amounts to forever!). --118.93.47.31 23:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I seriously don't think this is mythical. I understand that it was a part of the out-of-court settlement. I don't have the info at my fingertips right now and probably won't have time soon to research where you can read this verbatim. My suggestion is, if you can't find it in the Travellers' Pub, please post there and ask. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:14, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Tanjung Puting

Hi Ikan, hope you're good. I noticed you marked this article patrolled but as far I know tour listings and agencies are usually not allowed on this wiki except in some rare cases. No doubt, you know best how this site works and well aware of policies but I need some clarifications please. --Saqib (talk) 13:19, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Orangutan tours seem like value added to me. Do you think you can just as easily see orangutan on your own? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:36, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Ops, I thought Orangutan is name of a place. --Saqib (talk) 18:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Premature (?) "sweeping"/cover up

Just in case you missed this? --118.93.91.14 07:38, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Changchun

Hello, Ikan Kekek! Thanks for helping me out here. This link seems more informative than another official English link I found. Also, thanks for linking me to the relevant policy! So, if my understanding is correct, only links to primary sources are allowed? Rotideypoc41352 (talk) 02:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's correct. The reason for the policy is that, although there are sometimes unofficial links that are more informative — so in those cases, it can be accurately argued that including them would serve the traveller — it was very hard to police unofficial external links when they used to be allowed, and the result was a bunch of promotional links and too much time spent trying to evaluate links. You can see discussions on Wikivoyage Talk:External links that helped us to get where we are now. Everything is subject to change if the consensus changes in the future, though. Best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:22, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

It seems I may have misjudged you

If so, let's shake hands and start afresh. Tell me if you want any of my previous comments stricken. --118.93.67.66 04:46, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Totally up to you. Either way, there's no problem with our continuing to work together to try to better the site.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:10, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Vienna unfortunate district split

Hello Ikan Kekek,

The Vienna district split is unfortunately really an artifical split, but a small change - Moving one district in the current split - would already help us to better sort districts that kind of belong together. Could you please chimme in at the latest section Talk:Vienna.

Thank you very much! Best greetings, --Axisstroke (talk) 18:38, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Axisstroke. I don't think I can be of much help in this instance, because I am really unfamiliar with Vienna.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:56, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ikan Kekek,

Ok, thank you was worth a try. (: Best, --Axisstroke (talk) 02:35, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Tony1

I noticed you have placed and withdrew a user ban nomination for Tony1. I personally have had no interaction with him, although attempting to be neutral and just looking at his contribution history it seems that he went off the rails on September 16th and has only been combative since. I would say a long ban would actually be appropriate since the negativity on the Travellers' pub is not helping the site in any way and is making it unpleasant to be here. Andrewssi2 (talk) 10:44, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

The only thing is, it might be more effective to ignore the trolling for a few days. If it doesn't stop soon, I'll surely reinstate the user ban nomination. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:01, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

OK --Andrewssi2 (talk) 01:15, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, a user ban nomination has been put up, so feel free to comment on it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:48, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

What do I do next at El Camino Real?

I just finished all 21 missions at El Camino Real (4 received entries for the first time, and all 21 entries were improved in some manner). What do I do now to make it a proper itinerary? I have the beginnings of a seven-day itinerary (three missions a day) on the talk page...are there other things I should do? Purplebackpack89 19:42, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

This article is shaping up nicely! Make sure you link the name of every town. I think it would also be good to give very brief overviews of each town, summarizing the general scene in terms of other things to see and do and what's available to eat, drink, and for sleeping. In no way should you recapitulate what's in the linked town/city guides, though; I would keep those overviews extremely brief (probably 1-2 sentences per city/town). I see Ryan gave the example of Route 66, which I probably would have given, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:23, 9 November 2013‎ (UTC)

Re: offical tourism site

Hi you messaged me asking if a site I listed was an official tourist one. I take it you changed it already as I can't seem to see the link on any of the likely pages to change it myself. Sorry about the misunderstanding and thanks for the feedback. —The preceding comment was added by Travelling ali (talk • contribs)

Hello. I don't remember changing it. Someone else may have done so.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:50, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Response

See my talk —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

"Consensus"

Once upon a time, some children found a kitten. They didn't know whether it was a girl kitten or a boy kitten, and they didn't know how to find out, so they sat for some time and tried to puzzle it out. Finally, remembering something learned in school, one of the children declared, "I know, let's vote!"

So that's pretty much what I think of the claims of "consensus" r/t Wikivoyage talk:Time and date formats‎‎ you made on my talk page. Better to ask what the issues are. As I see it, this is an international website, written by international editors, for an international audience, who we want to participate in the writing of the wiki as they travel. This means they will come to the project speaking and writing several varieties of English, all standard. So how to accommodate all. That is the real question, not which variety of English will claim a temporary "consensus" and push out the other varieties.

Whether your consensus existed at one time or not, it clearly does not exist now. I have removed the entry pending a new consensus.

Regards, --Neotarf (talk) 06:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

That's a great warning on the dangers of democracy, Neotarf. However, as I understand the way consensus used to work here, if we have something in our MoS that has been that way (however, stupid or illogical) for a long while, a new clear consensus is required to change it. ie, it shouldn't be thrown out or suspended while we discuss the new proposition - because that discussion may take a long while and there is a risk of damage in the meanwhile? --118.93nzp (talk) 06:32, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. And Neotarf, you needn't try to convince me, of all people, that your proposed changes are good. I proposed them before you did! And in the ensuing discussion, it became clear that my point of view was outnumbered. And as far as I'm concerned, that's probably the end of the story. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:52, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear, did I break teh wiki? But let me point out that "democracy" is not the same as "consensus", in fact it's the complete opposite. "Democracy" presupposes a vote, and therefore winners and losers, with eternal acrimony. A "consensus" implies an !vote, that is a vote that is not really a vote, but a discussion based on issues, not numbers. An effort is made to reach a conclusion that everyone can live with. In all fairness, what I am advocating probably comes closer to "anarchy", but in this situation, that might not be a Bad Thing. --Neotarf (talk) 06:57, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Maybe and maybe not, but this site is not going to stop running based on consensus and embrace anarchy. If you would like to start your own anarchic travel site, I promise to check it out when it's up and running. :-)

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:03, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

So where is this alleged consensus discussion of which you speak. Might there be diffs? --Neotarf (talk) 09:54, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

It's been around for nearly nine years but I don't think Huttite is still with us (I can't remember him editing for several years now). Nurg might remember (apart from Evan himself who rarely honours us with his presence, he's been here the longest). --118.93nzp (talk) 10:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

As User:118.93nzp points out, a consensus is required to change a policy. When the policy was adopted by a previous consensus is something that can always be researched, but I consider it somewhat beside the point. If you look at very recent discussion on the change I attempted to make in the date format, you will see that the majority of people discussing it were against the change. As I said, I regret that, but that's the way it is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:22, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

So according to the above link [23] there was never any discussion, and never any consensus. It was just something that was migrated from WT, that some guy from New Zealand put up there. Presumably he speaks BrE. It's a good start, especially since he seems to be a tech-type guy and not a linguist, but there are other perfectly correct and internationally recognized formats and no reason on earth they should not be valid here. -Neotarf (talk) 01:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that seem broadly correct, but really Nurg needs to come in on this because he really started the whole ball rolling. The fact that there was no discussion might mean that nobody ever noticed it and it might mean that everybody at the time thought it was a great idea. I know I thought it reasonable at the time (unlike the ugly AM/PM but, heh it was very US centric in the early days and I never felt fired up enough about anything like that to register an account and comment - although I did very occasionally comment from an IP, I always felt nobody took IP editors comments seriously and, after a while, just gave up bothering and went back to intermittent copy edits with the occasional content contribution if I was fairly sure things were going to be quiet for a bit at wrok.).

What I do find strange is the sudden hatred of relative sizing in thumbnails. Nobody ever objected or batted an eyelid for years and then, suddenly when Frank starts using them (and he certainly wasn't the first to use that upright syntax), they are the work of the devil and the reverse argument is used: because nobody explicitly sanctioned them, they're forbidden until a consensus forms to use them! Whatever happened to pf ? --118.93nzp (talk) 02:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Huttite put that in the policy, no-one disagreed, there was no discussion, therefore there was consensus by passive agreement. But the policy is not fossilised. Ikan opened a discussion - if there is a consensus for change, the policy will change. If there is no consensus for change, the status quo will remain. Nurg (talk) 04:12, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You seem like "Pfft, Z82 Retrocade does not exist!"

You seem like you don't believe that Z82 Retrocade exists, it just opened in June 2013! —The preceding comment was added by 68.51.28.219 (talk • contribs)

Hi. Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing ~~~~. It's always good to remind people of what you're referring to, but I believe the issue is that I deleted a totally unexplained listing. If you want to list something, give a description in the listing so that people know what you're talking about. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:07, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I see that User:118.93nzp did put up a real listing for this arcade. That's what I was looking for. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Avant-garde

I didn't revert your spelling correction. I added geodata, and unfortunately the old spelling was in the dialog. It was a cross-edit. -- Mark (talk) 13:48, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I understand, Mark. Thank you.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:32, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the Heads Up

Hello Ikan,

Being new to Wikivoyage I must have missed the external links article regarding the site's policy. Thanks for the info; I've read over the article and I'll make sure the guidelines be followed.

Good day,

Minivation (talk) 00:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

You're very welcome. There's nothing intuitive about this one, and there's been plenty of discussion about whether to allow more Wikipedia links, but there's always been a majority against inline Wikipedia links, to date, and discussions were fairly recently deadlocked and suspended for now. I moved your post to the bottom of the page, which is where new posts in a thread customarily go.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:55, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Ypsilon's essay

I'm going to hold my tongue regarding what was said in that essay, only because I think I'd need to hear the opinions of some other, more knowledgeable Wikivoyagers before I were able to judge how likely the extremely serious allegations made there are to be true.

Nonetheless, even if none of those speculations check out, the suggestion that the drama here might lead us to be evicted from the WMF family deeply concerns me. For my own peace of mind: in your opinion, how much danger are we really in of that?

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:45, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea. And I don't know if the essay is accurate or not, but it sure is interesting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:20, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

To be blunt, I think it's a huge conspiracy theory. The labs part is flawed; only *hashes* of passwords were revealed. --Rschen7754 23:18, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

And nobody ever gets evicted from the Wikimedia family. But there are certain Wikimedia sites that nobody goes to, because they are so corrupt (en.wiktionary, en.wikinews, hr.wikipedia come to mind). I fear that en.wikivoyage is going to make that list, really soon. --Rschen7754 23:19, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

If that's the case, we should do whatever we reasonably can to avoid such a fate. I don't perceive corruption here, though; what I perceive is that we're sometimes too hard on new or innovative users. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:29, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

[24] is the sort of stuff I'm worried about. As far as corruption, I know we're not corrupt, but it could easily look that way to an outsider. (points I hope to make in my essay) --Rschen7754 04:02, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Very regrettable. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:04, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

How do we solve that, though? Seligne's revert had nothing to do with his administrator status, so that seems a red herring. This is a wiki, after all; sometimes your edits get undone if someone disagrees with them. Isn't that part and parcel of wiki-participation? Even in this specific case, we do frequently undo good-faith edits that nonetheless cause a degradation in tone or clarity, though the preference is to incorporate the added information elsewhere or in a better way. Certainly we don't want to scare good editors off, but collaborative editing requires a little bit of a thick skin and a willingness to defend changes you wish to make. LtPowers (talk) 21:31, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I do believe Seligne is a woman. That aside, I think part of the answer is that sometimes, we should hold back on reverts and instead engage people in dialogue. And when I said "engage," I mean hear out their views. Being a bit brutally honest, I don't see where Seligne fully did that, but I think there could be a language issue, since Seligne's English is excellent, but it's not her mother tongue. I think that when there are reverts based on content, we should really try to explain the reasons for them, as in why we feel like the changes are unfair or less accurate or something. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:59, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Good evening. No, I do not think it is probable that that is actually going to happen. I do find it utterly disturbing that some people, most notably the person(s?) behind the Tony account have openly showed such hatred towards WV. I stumbled upon that individual in June and what I read back then was unlike anything I've ever seen here on WV/WT. I really did not like what I saw - most of that took place at Peter's talk page. Let's say I very quickly got a very negative perception of that person. Yes, I was also aware of the Frank/Alice story back then. Because I happen to have a habit to check out the Recent changes I also followed Frank's contributions to the site up to his voluntary Wikibreak a month and a half ago. When was the next time Tony paid us a visit? He suddenly emerged to comment on a "Frank thread" in the pub - out of the blue. Following his doings for the couple of days he was here wasn't fun to see. I also noticed the first thing Frank did when he came back. A look at the involved people's interest in similar topics and above all their attitude made me very uneasy. When three of our best contributors soon after just disappeared with Peter asking a very strange question in the tourist office and I got the message of the hacked password hashes almost the same day - I felt even more uneasy. And started to dig more and more into everything. What I found I wrote in the essay. Doing this does not entertain me the slightest. This was one of the reasons why I reverted the essay. Frank seems to have noticed it in his sandbox, though. Another was that I cannot prove anything, I can just give you the links and tell you my opinion. While I suspect I'm wrong in some of those allegations, I would love to see some proof. I cannot find any myself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a someone that keeps coming back again and again and again and again doing something people do not agree with and do not listen to other people's advice isn't really a "troll" in the traditional sense that he or she is merely here to f*** with us for fun but instead that they try to accomplish something. Just think of what positive things this energy could've been used for here on WV instead. Then came the infamous Signpost. And now we have this 118 person who seems to know a whole lot about everything and everyone despite having been here for just a short while, defending users against allegations that in some cases haven't even been made. And I think I've heard the tone he uses a couple of times before. I hadn't really said the person a word before his check user request, merely commented on the Time and Date talk page, where I used an abbreviation he didn't know in a message to Ikan, he asked me what it meant (I would've used Google), I answered and he thanked. Yeah, and on his talk page I told other people how I find the coordinates for places. And now this check user request - what for? - and exactly what does he want to accomplish by it? I mean, WTF? Seriously? Why me? Aside of what I've already written in the check user thread about the Spendrupsforall account, the person behind this account has used it to commented on topics I'm not very interested in (SEO, improvement of Google ranking, the legal aspects of removing the WT notice at the bottom of articles etc.), and that is because I do not have enough knowledge about the topics to have something reasonable to say about them. To conclude I'd have much better things to do, both here and elsewhere, than to deal with 118 & co., but I want to put and end to this horror movie once and for all. This weekend I haven't managed to do much of anything that I use to do here on WV but I've still developed a kind of a editing window phobia... ϒpsilon (talk) 17:58, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Ypsilon. Do you have some suggestions for what to do from now on? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:38, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Right now - let’s just concentrate on our regular “job” here on WV. That’s what I’m going to do, at least until the next time something negative pops up. This is also something that needs to be implemented better sooner than later. Admitting that I could (and should?) have replied to 118 in a less fierce way. I think it would also be good to keep an eye on the following issues of the Signpost. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

That's sage advice.

"'And now we have this 118 person who seems to know a whole lot about everything and everyone despite having been here for just a short while..."

I don't really mind you being rude - or even being ruder via other Sockpuppet accounts. What I do mind is 2 things:

1) Sloppy analysis. Either that or you seem to have been highly selective in your investigation. We see that all the time in police forces throughout the world. The detective has a hunch and then only investigates and collates material and evidence that supports that initial hunch. That way lie convictions that are overturned on appeal when someone (hopefully a more competent cop) does a proper investigation. Even worse, of course, is when, if the bad cop can't find the evidence to support/prove their initial pet theory, they start fabricating/ planting it. You'd be surprised how often that happens - not necessarily for "bad" motives, but because the cop just "knows" a particular crim is guilty of something, but has proved too smart so far to get caught and convicted.

So what made you overlook/discount this edit Oopsilon - where I stated quite clearly that, although I've only just created an anonymous account, I've been editing (and reading) both on WT and subsequently WV for years as an IP - sloppiness or a particular axe to grind?

2) Unfair "enforcement". Obviously our admins are not a disciplined force subject to guidelines and standing orders, but it is quite amazing how Frank gets banned for 3 days for posting an apposite image, Tony for a similar period for arguing rationally and doggedly (albeit very annoyingly and abrasively) over a relatively trivial matter of style, Alice is permabanned for (what exactly? Just being Alice and silent as far as I can tell, although maybe there were equally nonsensical reasons as the conspiracy theory you're peddling put forward in private fora). You (and your puppets/tag teamers) come out with vitriolic and sloppy hatchet jobs on me and my tag team of socks/non-users of US English and what happens? Sundry admins don't bat an eyelid except to recommend the personal attacks for everyone to read. Do the same admins continually banging on about sock puppetry and alternative accounts then bust a gut to arrange an extraordinary check-user request to confirm their suspicions? Do they hell! --118.93nzp (talk) 05:47, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to avoid discussing your specific points and suggest that everyone else does the same. The only thing I'll say is that constructive attitudes and edits are always the antidote to any suspicions (founded or unfounded, and I have taken no position on whether these are founded or unfounded, only interesting) or bad feelings toward anyone. And one other thing: I've got a much thicker skin than many other people here, but no one user should be considered more important than the site, meaning that if anyone (I repeat: anyone) does things that have the effect of causing several really good editors who contribute a lot of great content to leave the site, the terms of their presence should be open to question.Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:55, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Wrong way to go in my opinion. We shouldn't be in the business of pandering to a few thin skinned prima donnas. When we had a small cadre of super- productive editors (PeterFitzgerald was one, you're another) that might have been a productive and utilitarian (if rather unethical) stance. Now we're a WMF project with the potential to have an order of magnitude more editors and readers, the better way would be to have clearly defined standards of conduct and consensus finding even handedly applied to all, however irritating (or majestic) their contributions. Otherwise, can we have a list published of these thin-skinned and too easily annoyed "really good editors who contribute a lot of great content" so that they can be tiptoed around and treated like unexploded ordinance? --118.93nzp (talk) 06:23, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Your point makes sense, though I think the truth is in the middle, in that really good editors don't actually grow on trees, especially for this project. In terms of the more clearly defined standards, they are being worked on and will be up and running soon. I'll say this, though: I might wish that everyone would have relatively thick skin, but the fact is, many people don't, either for cultural or/and personal reasons, and will simply up and leave at the first sign of what they consider disrespect. And I think that does call for a bit of sensitivity from everyone. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:36, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Let's close on that note of agreement then. You're an intriguing character; like Ryan, much of what you write in these project pages makes entirely good sense and I can thoroughly agree with most of it - it's just that sometimes your judgements are spectacularly poor and strategically potentially disastrous for this entire project. I'd love to meet you one day - I suspect we'd both be shocked. --118.93nzp (talk) 06:53, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I never claim to be perfect. We all should just do the best we can and remember that in the end, this is just a website, and unless we're blithely advising people to do spectacularly dangerous things, it's very unlikely that anyone will live or die based on anything that goes on here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

A barncompass for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	For not only your continued willingness to engage in the increasingly dirty work of Wikivoyage policycrafting, but also doing so in a manner that consistently balances fairness with tolerance and open-mindedness. AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:52, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

That's very sweet of you, Andre. I try my best, as indeed you do.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:56, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Well very deserved. I must say you're one of the best among us. Keep it up Mick! --Saqib (talk) 20:11, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Saqib. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:04, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Hoi An

I fail to understand why you do not consider My Son one of the things to do in Hoi An. It is the major thing to do. As a traveler, I find it unconscionable, not only that I have to rely on Lonely Planet to tell me this, but that when I try to correct it in the guide, you delete it. Twice.

If there is further information about My Son, don't you think it would be better to link to it from the Hoi An article than to delete it from that article? --Neotarf (talk) 12:42, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you understand. It is already linked from the Hoi An article, in the "Go next" section at the end. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:46, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Dotm#Auckland

Would you mind putting a word in on the ongoing debate between me and Saqib on this thread? I know exactly what my position is, but I don't want it to appear as if I'm picking on him. :) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:38, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:42, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Prague tours center

Hello, thank you for the explanation and sorry for my attitude. And first at all, I would like to say that I am not the owner of the mentioned companies, I'm just webmaster.

I spoke to the company owner and I told him that if he wants to be placed on this wiki site, then he must have a service with great benefit to the tourist. He wrote me back that offers free services which tourists could take a free and I have put it into the text. I'm just not sure categories. —The preceding comment was added by Platform.www (talk • contribs)

Hi. Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing~~~~, as it's easier to follow discussion that way. In any case, tours that fall under the exception criteria shown at the tour policy page would go under "Do," but just because a tour is free doesn't automatically mean that it should be listed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:22, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Platform.www (talk) 20:03, 24 November 2013 (UTC) I think that this is free without hidden conditions, of course, if some person comes to the Prague tourist center, than will communicate with him and try to sell him some other services, but it is not mandatory.

Romantik Manoir Carpe Diem, De Haan

According to booking.com and Google Maps, there is a hotel in De Haan called "Romantik Manoir Carpe Diem". I'm not sure how you want to handle it. It was not my entry. —The preceding comment was added by TheTrolleyPole (talk • contribs)

So it sounds like I would have lost my bet. I'd insert the full name of the hotel, then. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for letting me know that I got this one wrong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:45, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Chinese Wikipedia link deletions

Hi Ikan, I was actually wondering about the Wikipedia links in Chinese_phrasebook (I didn't put them there). Thanks for resolving that so quickly. Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely. I didn't like deleting them, but I don't think they're a good exception to current policy. I also added a phrase at the end of the "Basics," which I hope you can insert characters and proper tone notation for. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:58, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Abbots Langley

Thanks for upgrading Abbots Langley to 'Usable' status! I've just added a bit more info on getting in and around and was wondering if you could give me any tips on how to make the article better and maybe get it to 'Guide' status, or does it just need more content? I've come from OpenStreetMap so I'm pretty good at adding data but not so good at actually talking about it :p. Any help would be much appreciated. Cheers. Alux (talk) 22:43, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Alux, and thanks for doing such a great job! I think that the only thing the article really needs for Guide status is prices in "Eat" listings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:54, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Awesome, I'll start taking notes when I visit them. Thanks. Alux (talk) 23:03, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Friday 13th

Hmmm, I still pine for a good walk on the lower west side trying to work out which no longer existing piers were the ones my father uesed to go for his cross atlantic trips. New York new york, indeed.

The issues for the quietness - another place another time. I realised the best way to get back into the editing was to do some bare bones itinerary items for western australia based on the main highways.

Hope to simply add content after getting some very very negative feedback from some australian eds about this site. My way of considering the status of somethin akin to being a child and told leave the place tidier than you found it of something totally unrelated. Namo tassa bhagavato.... the buddhist mantras for equanimity come flooding back... bugger the negative karma, just doing it instead... Trust all is well sats (talk) 09:23, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

sheesh synchronicity bit spooky, sultanahmet was one of my favourite parts of the big world tour four years ago, and in the last day or so have just re-acquainted with one of the villians of my very short stay there. sats (talk) 09:26, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I have yet to visit Turkey, but everyone I know except for my aunt who's either from there or has visited loves it. My aunt had a compound fracture on a hike up a hill and had to be carried down, so she has a special reason for not having good memories of Turkey, but that kind of thing could have happened anywhere that was hilly.

I think things are improving on this site, with some new excellent content being added by new editors. We'll see how things develop. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:33, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

well an interesting start to the afternoon, foreign text and yogya promotion... sats (talk) 09:25, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. And back to grading final papers for me this early morning. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:30, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Australian alert

if you're not tracking him already... --118.93nzp (talk) 09:33, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

I was, and I'm definitely suspicious. Thanks, 118. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:01, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Too much Xmas pud?

Have you been helping yourself to too much brandy butter?

Why are you weirdly suggesting that registered editors are not free to have their table of contents exactly the way they want it on their own user talk page, please? --210.246.47.134 07:50, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I already posted about this on a user talk page I believe you have access to. Anyway, I did misread the history of that user talk page and regret the hassle. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Eh, no worries. Coincidentally, i've already read this answer you've given to 210's inquiry, so i understood what had happened even without your latest (and direct) explanation. Small things like this can be good at times, particularly if they interrupt a long-established routine: this one helped to remind me to cope with the unexpected, and never forget to AGF. Happy editing. -- Jokes_Free4Me (talk) 08:36, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Right back at you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:53, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Your revert Las Vegas Elvis Picture

Hi Ikan Kekek, did you see this ugly pic? You only can see someone from behind 100 feet away, I´m sure there are better pics of Las Vegas and of famous Elvis impersonators. Greetings --Bernello (talk) 11:16, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Bernello, I added it there half a year ago and I have personally removed it now. I put the pic there because I wanted to show that it's very common to stumble upon people dressed up like Elvis, people from movies etc. when walking in LV. I do have some better pictures of them too, but didn't upload them because earlier on WTravel uploading pictures of recognizable people (in this case the impersonator) was a quite big no-no. ϒpsilon (talk) 11:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

It sounds like this has been resolved. Bernello, if you had criticized the photo as ugly and a poor example of an Elvis impersonator in your editing summary, my reaction would have been different. Best to both of you, Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ypsilon, Hi Ikan Kekek , thanx for your answers, you are always welcome with better pics, Greetings --Bernello (talk) 11:38, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

KL

I have proposed some changes in KL's structure. Not sure, whether you are the right person to ask... :) How are things going here? I have heard about some community problems here. So I am a bit concerned. But due to lack of time I haven't been able to follow everything here.... Have a nice transition to the new year 2014.. Greetings from Germany. -- DerFussi 09:46, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Happy Holidays and A Happy New Year Fussi. --Saqib (talk) 10:11, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes indeed. And also to you and your family, Saqib. And by the way, I'll be in Munich from January 1-17 and Berlin from January 18-25. I think those suggested changes to the KL structure sound perfectly reasonable. I should say that I haven't been in KL since 2003, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:16, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Berlin? I live in Cottbus (just 1,5 hours by train)..... Time to meet? If you want of course and if you have time .... -- DerFussi 10:57, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Saqib. Best wishes to you and your family. -- DerFussi 10:59, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether I'll have time in Berlin, but it's certainly possible, and we can be in touch and see. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:15, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Australian IP vandal

Ikan,

Andrewssi2 and myself have drafted a possible solution to the Australian IP vandalism. Given that it involves a rangeblock, it'd probably be best to get as much community input as possible before going forward with it. You've been front and center in this struggle, so your approval/alternate suggestions would be highly valuable indeed.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:20, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Iseo

Firstly I want to thank you for your correction to my mistakes. Then could you explain me in which section can I write about Iseo's events? Thanks --Lkcl it (talk) 17:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Certainly. You can include events in the "Do" section. If you like, you can create a subsection for them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:38, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Main articles

On wp en and here, I have a basic principle, I used to avoid them like the plague. A they attract atttention seekers who like to do their little do dos on them to more or less say look i did my doo doo here style editing, and also they tend to get too big in size others want to make them even bigger...

I have come across an article which most of what I find I considered complete and utter crap in almost every second sentence - it seems that because voyage does not require due diligence over opinion, all it needs is a few smart asses from somewhere who might not have even been there to actually completely mis-describe a location... I am wondering in my peripatetic wanderings through the essence of the psyche of voyage whether the lack of what we have on wp en - WP:V and WP:N - might also be a very basic flaw here.

Intellectually I have serious misgivings about less professional textual renditions about tourist locations that I find regularly in the paper version of information in my town of origin, but the voyage version makes me wonder where or how voyage might even take stock of the issues of its own content. Thinking aloud as I venture into my home town again. It may well have been hammered out already somewhere either in the previous mode or the current mode, but I have obviously missed the conversation. sats (talk) 01:46, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Sats. By main articles, do you mean country-level articles? I think the solution to the problem you've described is for people who know places better to correct things. For example, there's no way that utter bullshit about New York City could stand; however, crap about Bamako might be hard to discover, as we probably lack editors who are very familiar with Bamako. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Almost every second sentence in Perth is either wrong (we had recent editor try to discuss snow in Perth, which is outright bizarre) or slewed with innacuracies that creep in with generalisations that seem to be ok, but really add up... and then in wp en we talk about wp:undue - someone obviously got very keen down the article about nude bathing, it has not been discussed publicly here for any reason in perth for years and is a non topic - and the emphases in some sections on things seems really out of kilter... I dont want to re-write the whole article, but parts leave me flabbergasted sats (talk) 01:58, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

And repetition - overdoing it about isolation - in the end so what? - but 3 - 5 times... sats (talk) 02:00, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

[Edit conflict:]If you would rather not spend the time rewriting the article, I completely understand, but please list the inaccuracies on Talk:Perth to give guidance to others. I'm sympathetic, of course, but I haven't been to Perth and would rather that someone like you, who knows the city, would edit content for accuracy.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:02, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah hard to know where to start or finish on such an issue, thanks for listening. sats (talk) 02:06, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Any time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:19, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

instant karma - exactly what the current discussion has emanated - an IP asserting from an oggle search and leaving nothing to verify as such. pity someone in voyages history hadnt thought about wp en's WP:V policy, that would leave a few of the wilder claims (weasel words specially) lying around on the edge of a cliff so to speak... sats (talk) 02:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Sats, if you feel like we need to discuss verifiability, please start a thread in the Pub. I don't think we want to require footnotes, but it is indeed a problem when people make stuff up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:45, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

We don't need to require footnotes, but at the same time if someone questions the accuracy of information it should be removed pending clarification - we have always erred on the side of caution when it comes to misinformation. -- Ryan • (talk) • 02:48, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, Ryan. I just made a comment to similar effect in Talk:Perth. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:50, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Another thorn in the toe

Abbreviations - presumably my edit there is more appropriatel located than the pub? trust it is so sats (talk) 06:03, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Depends whether people pay attention to Wikivoyage talk:Abbreviations or not. I noticed the edit that set you off, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:06, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I get your drift, oh well it is off to the pub we go... sigh sats (talk) 06:09, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Papi Hills - Upcoming dam

There is a dam which is going to be constructed soon . The construction was stopped or is running slowly due to lot of difficulties .Check out W:Polavaram_Project . --Pavithrans (talk) 02:51, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I see. That would be "dam under construction." But unless it's already interesting to look at, it should not be listed and probably shouldn't even be mentioned. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:58, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I am really not sure if it is interesting or not , its a dam stuck under controversy . The dam when finished would submerge large portion of tribal dwellings , at the same time the dam would give drinking waters and help lot of farmers . --Pavithrans (talk) 04:50, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like a news story, probably something not to even mention until it's complete or at least far enough along to have dislocated people. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:00, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Question on map usage

I would like to know the wiki policy of Openstreet map usage . Can I atleast take some screenshots and put them up ? I remember Frankfurt used a lot of Mapquest maps . Can you point me to some help articles ? I would like to use them in Khammam. --Pavithrans (talk) 04:54, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Pavithrans. You can look at Wikivoyage:Mapmaking Expedition and Wikivoyage talk:Mapmaking Expedition, plus Wikivoyage:How to draw a map and Wikivoyage talk:How to draw a map for some relevant information and discussion of static maps, and Wikivoyage:Dynamic maps Expedition and its talk page for dynamic maps. The brief version is that two types of maps are used here: Static maps, which are drawn in Wikivoyage style (see Wikivoyage:How to draw a map), and dynamic maps (see Wikivoyage:Dynamic maps Expedition), which as far as I can tell always use Mapframe. Sadly, Mapframe is having problems right now (see Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub#Dynamic map problems and the linked discussions: Wikivoyage talk:Dynamic maps Expedition#Sorry to bother the Dynamic map team again... and Wikivoyage talk:Dynamic maps Expedition#Problems with mapframe.

If all of this is as clear as mud to you, perhaps someone else may be able to clear things up a bit. I've never created any online map, myself. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Calvaries

Hi, Ikan, and sorry for my bad english. "Calvaries" is a category of Wikipedia Commons, defined there as "monumental public crucifix, sometimes encased in an open shrine, which may include figures surrounding the Crucifixion itself such as Mary, the apostles of Jesus, or other saints and symbolic figures." These sculptures are numerous in very catholic regions such as Brittany. Perhaps another english word would be convenient ?

All the best.Moulinsart (talk) 07:09, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I think I'd just call those crucifixes, or possibly crucifixion scenes, if they show figures other than Christ on the cross. For example, this, called "Calvaire" in French, is clearly a crucifix. Just about every one of the images I see on the first page of Commons results for Commons:Category:Calvaries is either a crucifix or a crucifixion scene, except for the Stations of the Cross and one or two crosses without a figure of Jesus on them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Farewell

I was wanting to send you an email - but then I realised you didn't have it enabled, so I will have to be a bit circumspect and stilted in what I say here.

I've enjoyed your edits over several years now and, despite my crusty tone at times over the course of the last few months when I've not been editing as an IP, it's been nice to know that there's been someone hovering in the background to correct my worst howlers.

I must admit that my original intention of creating a Wikivoyage account for the first time was to have some fun at Alice/Tony/etc's expense - finicky ndash and non-breaking space and all that.

Unfortunately, the more I tried to ape her style the more I became convinced of the correctness of her position in many respects. I made my peace with her a long time ago and my original intention was to fade back into the obscurity of copyediting from the random IP's that Vodafone New Zealand assigns to me. However, I doubt that will be possible now - for one thing I've been promoted and so will have a fixed IP shortly - for another my various hobby-horses of increasing readership, honouring the preferences that readers choose and trying to make sure that there is a good visual experience for people using a variety of screen sizes, resolutions and connection speeds/tariffs have, unfortunately, become bêtes noires for some of our most dogged and combative editors here.

I must admit I've definitely now realised how much of an advantage it is to have your own account - especially being able to "Thank" people quickly and having your own watch list.
My original intention was to quit using this account after the first 500 edits but I'd better stop real soon now because I see I'm in danger of breaking the three thousand mark now in just the 3 months since I made the first non-IP edit at 1:31am GMT, on November 8, 2013 (that's not including another few thousand using various IP edits during that same period).
If I can't manage to stay away, is there a procedure for creating another account without the same wrong-headed allegations of sock puppetry (my own fault, really) dogging me for ever? --118.93.237.217 04:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to say more and put you more fully in the picture, but can't be any more forthcoming in public due to the sensibilities of my own family and a duty of confidentiality to others.

All the best! --118.93nzp (talk) 04:24, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Understood, 118. I think the way to avoid any accusations of sockpuppetry is to state openly what accounts or IPs you have previously used. I will say that I do expect to see you here again, under some guise or other. Meanwhile, however long it may be, enjoy your break and your life, and thanks for all the wikignoming you've done.

And as we say in Yiddish, Zei gezunt! (Be healthy!)

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:55, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Talkback: Nils von Barth: No inline links to Wikipedia

Hello, Ikan Kekek. You have new messages at Nbarth's talk page.
Message added 13:14, 12 February 2014 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Delaware County

I'm not going to do the towns for a while ... it was mainly because I'm trying to get rid of all the redlinks in Catskills, and, being familiar with both Delaware and Sullivan counties, it seemed that the former would be easier to write (especially seeing that I hadn't started a page here before).

I do have some more to write. Feel free to look for more photos, though. Daniel Case (talk) 00:46, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

User:Ncseo

Special:Contributions/Ncseo was repeatedly adding links to "beachcarolina.com" from cities in that region. I see you've moved them to "Cope" but don't think they belong in the guide at all per Wikivoyage:External links (spam links, links to other travel guides). I've removed them. K7L (talk) 15:58, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

I understand completely. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:37, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Moreton Island

Hi Ikan,

Thanks for your help. I will take this into account with the latest edits; please let me know if there's anything I need to fix up there.

Best

Charles

Sure thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:32, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Have gone through now, is that a bit more appropriate? I note Tangalooma.com has 5 listings under 'eat' of which 4 link to the same page - not trying to be snarky but are the rules different for accommodation?

Also Reality Cruises unfortunately no longer service the island (you can see their site is down too: http://www.get2moretonisland.com/)

Thanks for all your help with this.

Best

Charles

Sure, Charles. There is still an issue under the don't tout policy: Generally speaking, it is not OK under that policy to have more than one listing. Is Castaways Restaurant owned by Moreton Island Adventures Accommodation? If not, its link should be to its own website (if any). If so, its listing should be incorporated into the "Sleep" listing, which also should use normal capitalization ("units, glamping, camping and dorms"). In terms of the ferry, I see that the micat site forwards to your site, so I think it's OK and serves the traveller to keep the link. But also, please have a look at the external links page for currently-approved linking format: Footnote-style used to be used but is now deprecated.

As for why another business has 5 listings under "Eat": Some touting gets through when people aren't looking. If you see any more examples in any article, please don't hesitate to post about them on the talk page of the appropriate article, or delete the extra listings yourself if there's no risk that that could be interpreted as action against a competitor.

Finally, the custom here is to sign one's username on talk pages (though never on travel article pages) by typing 4 tildes in a row like this: ~~~~.

I'll look forward to seeing your further edits in that article, and if you have any more questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:03, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for alerting me to the multiple listings of tanglooma.com; that was really an example of fairly gross touting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:14, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ikan,

Thank you again for your patience - I have amalgamated all the relevant eat/drinks/sleep/convenience store into one listing - I hope this is the correct way to do it? They are all owned by Moreton Island Adventures. Wasn't sure whether 'relaxed' is a bit too touty, please feel free to remove if you don't think it's the right usage.

P.S. Not to be a pedant, but the 'Whalers' bar' is also owned by Tangalooma Resort - the link there just goes to a generic page. I'd not feel comfortable editing their listing, though. Would like to leave it up to your discretion.

Thanks again for all your help.

Best

Charles

MoretonIsland (talk) 05:33, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

You're very welcome, and thanks a lot for cooperating and producing an excellent listing. "Relaxed" is not touty but descriptive. And you were absolutely right about Whalers Bar, not pedantic at all. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:42, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm back

I'm back. I don't want you to think it was that county thing that made me take a break, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. There were quite a few things I was behind on. I do have an idea for what to do with the county redirect redirects tough, send them them to New York City#Boroughs. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 21:48, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I noticed that you were back and editing. I'm happy you're back. I'm also sorry I aggravated you - I didn't mean to, and really appreciate the work you do.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:24, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

No apology necessary; you hardly aggravated me, it was just a straw. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:06, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Auto is not car

I do understand the western notion of using a car, well autos are just not cars. Infact they look or feel no where like that. Please checkout w:Auto_rickshaw and yes in India we call them "autos" and we rarely use the full name of auto rickshaw but I guess naming should be unambiguous.--Pavithrans (talk) 12:58, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I see. No, that can't be called "By auto," because people from outside the Indian Subcontinent will assume, as I did, that auto is just short for automobile, which is synonymous with car. If this is what you mean, please subtitle the section "By auto rickshaw". Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:19, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

topic article

just checking volcano topic article and feel this is unnecessary spruiking - your thoughts?

With 167 known active volcanoes, Indonesia is the world's most volcanic country by far. Volcano Adventure Indonesia, Sukapura, tel. +62-335-581439, +62-81319090225, [1] runs specialist volcano tours all around the country.

sats (talk) 09:03, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Those facts have nothing to do with a listing for a tour company. I would delete that opening sentence right away - or move it to the explanatory sections of the article if it's useful, say, in "Understand." Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:19, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates/Banners#Buffalo

At this point, the Buffalo banners aren't doing much more than taking up space on the page. However, I want to preserve the conversation as it exists now because I plan on using at least some of the same banners when Buffalo's DotM nomination is revived. Would it be okay to move that section into my userspace and then move it back when Buffalo is renominated?

Also, FWIW, my tentative plan is to switch out one of the North American DotMs for Buffalo as soon as possible after it's re-nominated. My original goal was to sub it in in June in favor of Manhattan, but that may be too optimistic at this point. Calgary in September seems more realistic, which would require moving Chicago/Far Northwest Side out of the August 2013 OtBP slot, but whatever.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:39, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Andre, anything you want to do is totally fine with me. And in case I haven't said so recently, you rock! Rock on, bro. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:39, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks again, Ikan! Buffalo/West Side will be online by month's end if not before. It's my favorite one so far, being my own neighborhood. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:22, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Edit conflict

We edited the Ann Arbor article at the same time. Feel free to revert me if you think the listing should go. -- Ryan • (talk) • 05:27, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

If you're satisfied that's sufficiently detouted, that's alright. However, I like to get rid of all imperative-voiced verbs. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:30, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes our tone lends itself well to the use of imperative sentences. Powers ^(talk) 19:20, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

I feel like a commanding tone in a listing for a business tends to promote, rather than describe. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:12, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Results

Wondering if you get the same results as me [25] Currently seeing if pagerank changes with the article I am looking at now. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:18, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, nice to see you on WV, but I don't have time to do this right now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:28, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

External links guidelines ...

Hi, I've seen your corrections about my changes on "Elba" and "Ischia" pages. Obviously I must agree with you about unsuitables links I added on these pages. Nevertheless I see on "Ischia" page I still see more then one link that clearly are againts guidelines ... I mean: prontoischia.it (Pronto Ischia), ischia-hotel.net (Hotel Ischia Reservation), ischiahotel.net (Hotel Ischia). I think you should remove these links too, don't you? :-)

--Oldlhsguy (talk) 17:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. We volunteer editors don't always notice everything. If you see more, please post to the talk (discussion) pages for the articles in question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Balinese

First to do this etc - I have somewhere some books about tourism in indonesia in the 30s and then the 70s and earlier - the interesting thing is I reckon that any claims to be first anything in Bali is probably wrong. sats (talk) 09:54, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Sounds likely to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:11, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Non-latin scripts in article names

I'm not following the discussion super-closely, but in this edit of yours at Wikivoyage talk:Deletion policy#Non-latin scripts in article names did you overlook the bit in the proposed wording that preceded the bullet points and said "Titles in non-Latin scripts"? cheers. Nurg (talk) 10:03, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

But my objection was to this part: "Redirect titles that are the local language name of the redirect target as it appears in the lede of the article are discouraged on English Wikivoyage and may be subject to a Votes for Deletion discussion." Local languages are fine unless they're in non-Latin letters/syllables/characters. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:09, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Map of places that have Wikivoyage articles that are near Tiraspol...

I'm a bit baffled as to why exactly you think we should not be linking to the Wikivoyage map server. Can you explain your reasoning, please? --118.93nzp (talk) 00:54, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Looks like I made a mistake! :-) Thanks for speaking up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:56, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a second look! --118.93nzp (talk) 01:21, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Wait, why are we now including links to a tools server? There are much better ways to include that sort of information, not least of which is the (beta) Special:Nearby functionality. In any case, however, wouldn't the normal process be to start a discussion to figure out how we would want to present this sort of information, rather than inserting links that may be questionable? -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Now I'm really baffled. Doesn't the Special:Nearby functionality relate to the actual (or stated) position of the reader rather than what Wikivoyage articles might be close to an article?

In any case, it doesn't exactly leap out and grab the reader by the gizzard from its left hand gutter position, does it? And even if the reader is savvy enough to click on "Special pages", it's just one of many options in a long list.

By all means thrash out a better way to do this, but please recognise that one of the virtues of plunging forward is that it may promote new ideas and better ways to do things - that's why I'm still so pissed off at your curmudgeonly and luddite attitude to both better Search Engine Optimisation and honouring registered readers wishes as to their thumbnail sizes, Ryan... --118.93nzp (talk) 01:22, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Oy, don't go there on my user talk page, please. Just keep to the subject under discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:00, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry - I'll strike words that may offend. --118.93nzp (talk) 02:16, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

"Ideal"

Hi IK. I noticed you just removed "Ideal" from Royal Chitwan National Park because the word sounds like touting. Fyi, I've recently used this word in numerous articles (Mirpur_Khas#Sleep, Nawabshah#Sleep, Thatta#Sleep, Umerkot#Sleep, Hyderabad_(Pakistan)#Sleep, Sehwan#Sleep) to which I contributed recently. On Wikivoyage:Words to avoid, it stated State what exactly makes it ideal. and I tried to state in the listings what make that accommodation ideal as well used the word "ideal". Do you think I should remove that word incase it violates our rules ? --Saqib (talk) 10:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I tend to think so. My interpretation of the remark in words to avoid is that we should describe what makes a place "ideal" but avoid using that word. But maybe I'm wrong. It might be a good idea to have a broader discussion about this in the pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:59, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Alright Imran Khan IK. I'll try to bring the matter to pub sometime soon! --Saqib (talk) 11:01, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Hahahahah. But to be somewhat serious for a second, a lot of this is really contextual. If a place is truly ideal - such as its location being ideal for having the single greatest view over the mountains or something - that's the rare occasion to use the word and really mean it. Because ideal means the best possible, and even more so, it has to be not only the best possible in a particular place but clearly fantastic and almost perfect in some defined way. That, anyway, is my interpretation of what "ideal" means. It's not only the best, but a standard of perfection to be aspired to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

During my trips to destinations, I tried to visit every accommodation and thus I used word "ideal" for a accommodation which is far better than all other options exist in that particular destination. --Saqib (talk) 11:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

In that case, I'm OK with you restoring the word to the entry I deleted it from. But maybe make it clearer what makes it ideal. I wasn't aware that you, rather than someone else, had used the word in the entry I edited, but the tone didn't make it clear to me that it hadn't been posted by someone in order to tout. That could be a shortcoming on my part, but please see what you can do, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:18, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood. I never been to Nepal nor I ever edited Royal Chitwan National Park. I only brought up this discussion because you removed the word from this national park article so I thought of letting you know that I myself used this word on many Pakistani destination articles recently. --Saqib (talk) 11:29, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I did misunderstand. So then, to restate things a bit, I'd be careful to use the word sparingly, at most, but I think I've tended to leave your use of "ideal" alone most of the time because you've made clear by the context what was ideal about the place you were describing. In general, though, I find the word very overused, often in the context of either touting or an over-enthusiastic raving description by a rabid fan, which could be mistaken for touting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Alright. Btw, Do you have in mind any similar expression which can be replaced by word "ideal" for a accommodation Or a restaurant which are better than all others options exist in a destination? --Saqib (talk) 11:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

The best thing to do would be to be more specific. "Fantastic food - the most complex-tasting in City X." "Most centrally-located hotel in town, right next to the Central Railway Station." "Incredible 360-degree panorama from the roof of this hotel, worth a visit even if you're staying elsewhere." "Cleanest, most comfortable guest house in the park." Etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

The language we're looking to avoid is "Restful Inns and Suites is the ideal location for all of your East Podunk travel needs". If something truly is ideal, and it's not just puffery, then it's okay to say so; "Words to avoid" are not forbidden, just words you should be very careful about using. That said, "ideal" does not mean "best". A hotel can be the best one available in the area, but that doesn't necessarily make it "ideal". The word connotes an absolute superiority of purpose, not merely a relative quality judgement. Powers ^(talk) 13:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

We agree on the meaning of "ideal." As I said earlier in this thread, it's a standard of perfection to be aspired to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. When Saqib says he "tried to visit every accommodation and...used [the] word "ideal" for a accommodation which is far better than all other options" - that is not the meaning of "ideal". It doesn't mean "nothing better (currently) exists"; it means "nothing better could possibly exist". If something is ideal, it's typically really hard to even imagine something better in the given sense. Texugo (talk) 20:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

What's going on?

Aloha, Ikan! You probably noticed the vandalism going on here 15 minutes ago. Boeing 737 was moving around your and Saqib's user and talk pages in addition to maybe 20 odd other pages. I returned the content to Saqib's user and talk pages and tagged the pages created by the vandal for deletion but Saqib reverted them and also another of my reverts. I see you've blocked Saqib because his account is hijacked. o.O ϒpsilon (talk) 10:09, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Yep, that's how it seems to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:11, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

This is all a misunderstanding. Saqib's account is not hijacked. User:Boeing 737 moved many pages and Ypsilon tagged the pages for deletion while it should have been reverted without redirects. Saqib reverted those moves with redirects. --Glaisher (talk) 10:16, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

That's not what I saw. I saw in the history of a lot of the vandalism that he created pages, so obviously, his account was hacked. I don't remember seeing you around before; welcome! I've been spending a lot of time deleting those pages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:18, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

I believe Glaisher is exactly right. Nurg (talk) 10:21, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Holy shit, I come back to Wikivoyage and I see this in the recent changes filling up my watchlist. Most likely Saqib was just concerned Ypsilon wasn't reverting properly since he does not have the suppressredirect given to administrators, which leaves tons of redirects behind to clean up after. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 10:25, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Which I've spent the last half hour or so deleting. Nurg, you may be right, but why was Saqib the first name in the history of all those vandalism articles? Does the name of the author disappear when he's indefinitely blocked? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:27, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

The vandal was primarily doing just page moves, not editing. Nurg (talk) 10:30, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

When the vandal moved "Page A" to "Nonsense Page B", their name comes up first in the redirect created at "Page A". When Saqib moved "Nonsense Page B" back to "Page A", Saqib's name comes up first in the redirect created at "Nonsense Page B". In the process the move most likely overwrote the vandal's username. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 10:32, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Very confusing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:34, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

You can try creating and moving some pages at https://test.wikipedia.org and see it for yourself. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 10:36, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for explanation TeleComNasSprVen. I'm wondering one thing BTW. My user page was vandalised because I was at that time reverting vandalism but IK was not present on wiki until 9:58 UTC then how and why his user page got attention of the vandal and Boeing 737 crash landed on IK user page as well. --Saqib (talk) 11:07, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

It could have been random. That vandal messed with a lot of pages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:08, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Pardon me for bothering you with a matter not strictly related to Wikivoyage...

Where is this???

This would probably be best asked in the Tourist Office, but you're a native Manhattanite and if you don't know the answer to this, likely no one will.

I was going through my photo archives, and I'm trying to figure out what street corner this is. The photo was taken somewhere in Chinatown in August 2004. If it helps, I believe that I was walking from City Hall Park toward the corner of Canal and Mott Streets. Google Street View has been no help thus far.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:04, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

No bother at all! That photo was taken on East Broadway, looking toward the approach to the Manhattan Bridge. The near cross-street is Catherine St. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:16, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome! Next time you're here, let me know, and I'll take you to some of my favorite Chinese restaurants. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:27, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Careful now, I'll probably take you up on that. :) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:35, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

We don't really have Chinese of the non-Americanized variety in Buffalo, but if you like Burmese and ever make it to the far end of the state, I can definitely show you some good places. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 07:43, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I mean for you to take me up on it. I love Burmese food, and we don't have a good Burmese restaurant in New York, though there is one in Philadelphia. I like Buffalo, but I'm not sure when I'd come up again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:54, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

My brother lives in Bushwick, and I visit him from time to time. I'll let you know next time I do. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 08:24, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Cool. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:34, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Re: Azhar sabri

FYI, his CentralAuth information shows him adding lots of userpages and vandalizing a couple of other high traffic pages to promote himself (Wikidata main page, Meta Wiki main page and Commons Wiki template) and that's why I tagged it. But if you disagree and it's determined his userpage on this wiki can stay though, I'm fine with that also. --TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 08:00, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I see. You did research, whereas I was just looking at his user and user talk pages. Let's see what else he does on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:10, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

It's my fault for not communicating a clear enough reason when I put up the template. --TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 08:31, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

No problem. I have no big problem with what he posted on his user page, per se, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:33, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

"add listing" buttons

I will use these buttons in the future to add more info about listings. I can use these on most computers, but the one have used for Wikivoyage updates most of the time had a setting not allowing me to use this option. I found the setting and changed it, so I can now use the add listing buttons. I will go back thru my entries and add what info I can find. Wpollard (talk) 11:58, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Excellent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:28, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I had to abandon the computer I was using and use my laptop to properly add listings. I started with the Wauchula article. Some computers have security settings that prevent the use of certain functions. Wpollard (talk) 07:00, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I had no idea about this. That's unfortunate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:03, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your guidance. Can I use my userpage Rukn950 to keep track of my interests?Rukn950 (talk) 14:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Sure.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:20, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Congrats, Ikan, for your revisions ! Cquoi (talk) 19:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm jealous but yes, you deserve one for patrolling. --Saqib (talk) 21:31, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, you two. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:27, 1 May 2014 (UTC)a

You are welcome, Ikan !--Cquoi (talk) 12:11, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Ignorance- fishery sites

I can see you do not show any understanding of the fishery as the second most important industry in Norway. So I ask you; honestly, why not for tourists to Norway. For your information, the page I am referring to is an official, Norwegian site, driven by government. Carsten R D Carsten R D

Replied on your user talk page. Thanks for reading it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:46, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

So, still you do not understand the meaning of fishing along the coast of Norway (as any idiot should do -to refer yourself), from north to south, but you continue to make an issue of this! Carsten R D Carsten R D

I think we should discuss this on Talk:Norway and invite more participation. I would suggest that you might want to be less confrontational, considering that this is the very first time you've ever given any evidence of paying any attention to your user talk page. I'd like to make you an autopatroller and stop individually patrolling every one of your edits, but while you put up a lot of great content, you do not consistently follow the guidelines in the Manual of Style. Look for the thread in Talk:Norway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:07, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

So what? I suggest you exit here, even if you have extensive experience of adding up in irrelevancies.Carsten R D Carsten R D

This is a collaborative site, which means that we discuss things. I suggest you do that in Talk:Norway#Norway Seafood web page link. I will consider this thread closed and await discussion at that link. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:21, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I find joy in creating articles on Wikivoyage, you can delight in correcting articles others have created. But you should realize that your activities do not create more desire to work for us who want only to improve Wikivoyage, with your focus on any minutiae in the articles. This reminds me of a destructive, strict, not praising school teacher's activity with a red pen. Carsten R D

Sorry you feel that way. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:14, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

The thing is, what do you think Wiki is? What's your conception of how editing works on sites like this? I'd like to know. My motivation is like yours: To help make this site and its articles as good as possible. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:36, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

South Korea

Thanks for your interest. I just found Wikivoyage:Links to Wikipedia being somewhat inconclusive on when to or not to link, so similar to other notations of Korean phrases, I am annotating the draconian National Security Act with more relevant Korean hangul and hanja per Wikivoyage:Foreign words to facilitate those who would like to search about it, but I as a Korean learner wonder if using a comma between hangul and hanja here has been standardized while I would like annotate more hanja when appropriate.--Jusjih (talk) 06:07, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

That page is conclusive on inline links to Wikipedia not being allowed except on talk pages like this one. Just look at Wikivoyage:Links to Wikipedia#In-line links:

The External links guidelines do not permit links from Wikivoyage articles in the Main namespace (travel articles) to Wikipedia articles (except in the "Related sites" menu), as they are not primary sources.

Unfortunately, I don't know Korean and couldn't comment on the different scripts. It would probably be best to ask for advice at Talk:Korea. Thanks a lot for your edits! Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:29, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Munich#Understand

Hi Ikan, just saw your comment on talk munich. My hope was that you can help shorten the Understand Art section that is reiterated in several parts of the whole article. I think we have more than enough content, the article rather needs a red line when it comes to art stuff. I can't differentiate between the big & small fish from all the names and films. Do you by incidence? I will focus on Munich/South-West which is the only obstacle to the guide level for the whole article. jan (talk) 18:34, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know all the arts equally well, but I'll have a look later or tomorrow and see what jumps out at me. Thanks, Jan. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:57, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Jan. I've had a look and really don't feel qualified to make cuts to the names because I just don't know enough about German visual artists to recognize a lot of the names. I'm really unsure the section is unduly long, though, as Munich is a major city of the arts. If any of that stuff is reiterated elsewhere, the things that are repeated can be deleted as redundant. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:06, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Ikan, i have no clue about these art sections, too. Maybe it is a way to delete all the names and name instead the art style. Either way it needs to get shorter. Lets see, maybe some other WVer has a clue. jan (talk) 12:36, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Ikan, please feel free to change/add the Understand section. I completely trust you and know that you do great work. jan (talk) 11:48, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. However, I want to avoid adding back too much. I liked all the background, but I understand that it's better not to go on too long and lose many readers who want a much briefer introduction. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

US History

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate you taking your time to add your criticism. I left my justifications on the USA talk page. I think my edits on the Civil Rights portion could be improved, but I'm sticking by my thoughts on the reasons for the War of 1812.PhilD86 (talk) 06:00, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Plymouth Colony rederect

There's a redirect I created which I'm thinking of having deleted, but I wanted a second opinion before taking any action. The redirect is Plymouth Colony and the target is Southeast Massachusetts, but it turns out I misremembered the borders. Cape Cod (not including Nantucket Martha's Vineyard islands) is part of the former Plymouth Colony, but outside of our definition of Southeast Massachusetts.

I'm thinking this should be either deleted or turned into an extra-hierarchical region. I'm strongly leaning trodes EHR. The Plymouth Colony is rather famous, it does seem like something someone would look up in a travel guide, at least if said travelers motivation for traveling was (at least in part) to learn about history and visit historic sites or something. What do you think. Mind you deletion and EHR aren't necessarily the only options, just the only ones I've really thought of. If you have your own idea, feel free to suggest it. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:39, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know. I'm a bit skeptical of redirecting defunct entities consigned to history multiple centuries ago to existing entities. You might want to post to the redirect's talk page and get others' views. Perhaps User:Pashley, who likes to create articles about historic empires and such, might have a view of what to do in this case. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:08, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

It looks like a good candidate for an extra-hierarchical region to me, though others might not agree.

For an example of an e-h region article I have done for a historic area, see Bactria. For my argument that having more like that would be a good idea, see Wikivoyage_talk:Search_Expedition#Index_articles. Pashley (talk) 23:20, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I think I agree, Pashley. I'd suggest that a Plymouth Colony article should include a historical map, some background, links to towns that existed then and still exist, and some remarks about points of interest from those times that are still extant and visible or/and visitable. I like that idea much better than a redirect. Thanks for your input. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Here's a stub. The historic map if should help with that town list. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:27, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Good start. I enlarged the historical map. I think the map of Massachusetts should be deleted from the article, though; I think it just takes up space. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:31, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I actually plunged forward and deleted the regions map of current-day MA. As Boston is shown in the historical map, that should be good enough, in my opinion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:33, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Audio for phrasebooks proposal

Hi thereǃ It's taken a while, but I have now written the proposal to introduce audio files for language phrasebooks. It turns out there was a previous discussion which touched on some of the same issues, but it was last year and came to an abrupt end without any sort of resolution, so I have made my proposal under a new topic heading.

Anyway, see you there --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Tokyo/Nakano

Just wanted to say thanks for checking my grammar in the Tokyo/Nakano article. Looks like I need to learn that "lots" goes with "There are", not "There's". Stupid brain should know better. Keep up the great work!--Red Trela (talk) 12:24, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. And keep putting up the content!

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:42, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Arequipa

Hello Ikan Kekek, sorry for my miscommunication. I was the one who wrote the information about Ride in Peru like a month ago and I just actualise yesterday it with a more explicit name and the email most used, as you can see I let the same phone and most of the informations. Can you tell me how I should communicate to do changes o actualisation because I was about to do it in others languages. Thanks in Advance. Jumojumox —The preceding comment was added by Jumojumox (talk • contribs)

Hi. Please explain why you are changing (hijacking?) the horse riding listing in the Arequipa guide. Edit warring of this kind without explanation will not be tolerated and may necessitate blocking your account. Communication in this kind of situation is essential. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:30, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

---

I'll type this information on your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:40, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Re:User Visitlutsk. Copyright violations. Lutsk article

Hello Wikivoyage. First of all we would like to point out that it is very hard to understand the mechanism of communication with the administration. Secondly, answering your complaints of copyright violations, we have to say that the information placed by us on Wikivoyage was taken from our official site with the aim of spreading the information to a wider public, since Wikivoyage is much more popular. Concerning the matter of rewriting, we should say that if you think it is necessary then go for it, because quite frankly we are not paid to do this kind of work. We are pretty sure you won't be getting any formal complaints about plagiarism on the account of this particular information. Our aim is to give useful information about Lutsk seeing as the name of our organisation if The Center for Tourist Information and Services. It is by all means your right to delete the information and waste a hard days work, but you also haven't mentioned the means by which we can prove that we have the right to publish this particular information. Please send us a reply and maybe a manual on how to use this awkward system of correspondence. Best regards, The Center for Tourist Information and Services

Replay to: User talk:Visitlutsk Hello, Visitlutsk! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. If you are familiar with Wikipedia, take a look over some of the differences here.

Thanks for contributing to the Lutsk article. I'm not sure if the history section needs to be that extensive, however. Also, if you're working in the tourism sector you may want to read through our Welcome, tourism professionals section. ϒpsilon (talk) 15:47, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, please have a look at Wikivoyage:Copyleft. Specifically, I'd like to call your attention to this: [Y]ou are legally responsible not to put other people's copyrighted work into Wikivoyage without permission. What this means is that you are not permitted to verbatim quote passages from other sites that do not use copyleft, in particular those that specifically affirm a copyright ("all rights reserved," etc.). However, even copying long passages from other sites that do use copyleft is a bad idea; it's much better to paraphrase the material such that it's most appropriate to this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:58, 22 May 2014 (UTC) For example, I notice that you have verbatim copied the passage on Jazz Bez from http://www.visitlutsk.com/page/en/festivals. Now, given your screen name, I might assume that you have permission to do this, despite the "© VisitLutsk 2012-2014. All rights reserved" at the bottom of the page. But how do we really know this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 22 May 2014 (UTC) It is also important that our Ukranian colleagues have found multiple copyright violations by this user. --Alexander (talk) 09:39, 22 May 2014 (UTC) Please reply, User:Visitlutsk. If no satisfactory reply is received, it may prove necessary to delete all your edits. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:43, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi. I replied to your user talk page. Please read my reply there. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:16, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Temporary announcement

You wrote on your user-page that you will have intermittent internet access for up to 2 weeks, starting on May 5, 2014. Is it May 25 or June 5 because its already been 3 weeks since May 5. --Saqib (talk) 20:01, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Geolocation, common sense

Thanks for your message! Please excuse my perhaps slightly unclear message in the edit summary. Further to your explanation - do note that the geolocation tools we have at hand (all of them) tend to be fallible and sometimes return quite incorrect results. This is frustrating and time-consuming, but I try to double-check every set of coordinates I get from them, and I see results of trusting them too much all around, which is sometimes very bad.

For now, until the tools get improved, I would say one of the best things we can do is actually spending some time verifying those listing locations when editing a guide.

On an unrelated note - thanks for bringing common sense to many of the discussions we are now having, which gives me hope they aren't going to turn as absurd as they are promising to. PrinceGloria (talk) 05:28, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

I do my best. I think it's best not to get too attached to a position about anything here, as in the end, this is just a travel guide, nothing that's too likely to be the difference between life and death. We've seen what's happened when some people have been way too attached to their positions - even when they made a lot of points I agreed with, they too often became unpleasant, so when they were absent, things became much more peaceful around here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:31, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

My continued work on Wikivoyage

I have been adding a number of items to this site since I first started. It is a bit different from Wikipedia, but I got the hang of it and plan to add info as I visit places new to me. And I like to travel, even if I don't get far from home. Just wait until I visit England next year; I am quite familiar with many places, since I lived there in 2001-2. Wpollard (talk) 12:47, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Excellent. Have a great trip when the time comes, and I'll look forward to your contributions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:38, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Berlin#Rebooting districts

Hey Ikan, I saw you took some interest in Berlin/East Central, a guide that I propose splitting in a discussion thread linked to in the heading of this message. At this moment, Berlin's article's are a bit on the fence between the old split between districts and a new one we never finished. I would love some comments on my proposal to be able to push it towards a final consensus and finish the redistrictification so that we could continue working on polishing district articles in a sensible fashion (for now, a lot has been out there rotting as it will probably be split / eliminated anyway). PrinceGloria (talk) 06:55, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi, PrinceGloria. I spent a month in Berlin last summer and a week there this past winter, but I haven't been to all parts of Berlin, so I don't think I know enough to have an opinion about how to divide the city up for the purposes of this site. The new map looks neat, though.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:01, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Ikan, you probably spent more time in Berlin in total than I did. Nobody's ever been to ALL parts thereof, but we need an educated guess. I propose to focus on the central areas and add one more, which covers all that is south of Mitte (I don't believe you never were to Kreuzberg or Tempelhof or didn't consider going there), and throw the areas most of us will never cover, at least not in total, into an article on the "outer ring". What do you think of it? Do let us know in the talk page, you surely know enough Berlin to chip in very valuably! PrinceGloria (talk) 07:06, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

PS. Whichever is the "new map", as I have no idea what you are referring to...

The map of regions of Berlin on the Berlin page is not new? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:16, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Age old, drawn on the orders of the Kaiser on parchment with a quill. I am proposing to do away with it and:

1. limit City West to actual City West (not City West and Messe and Grunewald and whatever else),
2. split East Central into actual East and South that would cover Kreuzberg, Tempelhof and Neukolln (all that binds the current "East Central" together is the administrative collection of Kreuzberg and Friedrichshein)
3. move all POIs in the outlying areas into one article, as there aren't many and they are so few and far between no common "get in" instruction or "understand" introduction is really useful however we splice them, so we need one article with multiple instructions not to split the hair in four.

PrinceGloria (talk) 07:22, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I really feel like this is above my depth to a large degree, but have you drawn up a map of the proposed divisions? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:37, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Bowling Green (Florida)

Thank you for fixing some of my shortcomings in creating this article. I'm still learning all the ins and outs of Wikivoyage. I have been looking at similar articles and studying what has been done to create them. If I keep learning enough, I will be able to create seamless articles. Wpollard (talk) 21:41, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Happy to help. You're doing fine; keep it up! Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:33, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

New York skyline guide

I was looking at the article request section and noticed somebody has asked for a New York City skyline guide. Just want to let you know ;) ϒpsilon (talk) 13:47, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I noticed, too, but I have no intention of attempting such a guide, and if it were attempted, a decision would have to be made about which viewpoint the guide would cover. Would it be the view from the Brooklyn Bridge, the Empire State, the Top of the Rock, the Brooklyn Heights Promenade, Weehawken, Jersey City, the George Washington Bridge? I think it's probably a fool's errand. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:52, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	This award was long overdue. In appreciation of your hard work, dedication and for your community service. Well done and thank you for all the hard work that you do. Saqib (talk) 10:59, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for your great work, Ikan!ϒpsilon (talk) 11:13, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, guys, and right back to you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

RE: Indonesia

Hi, Ikan. Nice catch and thank you for the acknowledgement. I am actually a native Indonesian, and while I don't have life, which I often am, I would look at Wikipedia & WikiVoyage & see what information can I update. It's kinda sad to see the contents are somewhat poor and when there is content, it's usually not up to WikiVoyage standards. For the long term, we can collaborate on making Indonesia an article (and finally the place itself) that one has to see! Othello95 (talk) 14:18, July 14 2014 (UTC)

Hello

Okay. Thanks for the welcome and tips. Sprayjavas (talk) 02:08, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Sure thing. As long as the articles in question are all well developed, I don't think anyone will have a problem with them (although I can't be positive about that). Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:52, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Kunming metro map

Hi Ikan. Is this what you were looking for? Anyway, the map is also in Chinese only, so I'm not sure it's worth linking directly to it. At any rate, normally we would only provide a link to the home page of the company, right? (I don't think there is one in the article yet.) If we put one, then anyone who can read Chinese can click to the site and quickly spot the link to the map page, no? Texugo (talk) 13:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that looks like what I was looking for. Yes, if you can read Chinese, you can navigate the site, but even people who can't read Chinese can see the Chinese names of stops on a map and find out how to read the names. Is it better to use the Commons map? I fear that it won't be updated so readily, whereas the Metro site's map will be. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I dunno, I just thought we usually tried to avoid deep-linking and/or multiple links to a single site, in which case a single link to the site's main page would suffice. Texugo (talk) 14:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I would make an exception in this case, in the interest of travelers who can't read Chinese but can read a map. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

padang

Hello ikan, I read your message and the guidelines. I understand I cited ADI's guesthouse twice on the page, which is redundant. What I don't understand is why you removed all the information about surfing in Pantai Air Manis. I struggled a lot over internet to find a good spot for beginners. I think this information deserve to be there.

As for adi s guesthouse, it is indeed a nice place to stay. And budget too, which is always good to know. So I thought it was a useful information. Maybe we should only edit the description I wrote, and leave the information. (I am not a tout, and was not paid by adi to write this)

While traveling, I rely a lot on internet and wikivoyage. It was a challenge to get information on beginner surfing spots and to find accommodation there, that's why I found important to share this information.

Thanks for considering this opinion,

Noemie —The preceding comment was added by Noemieontheroad (talk • contribs)

Hi, Noemie, and thanks for writing. All of us have to avoid the appearance of touting, regardless of whether we ourselves are touts or not, and I'm glad you aren't. It's fine to post a single listing of the guesthouse in "Sleep." The reason I reverted your entire post was because it was more work than I had time for to delete most of your post and keep some of it up, so I left that task to you, while giving you a link to don't tout, so that you are less likely to run afoul of those guidelines in the future. We are all volunteers here, and your edits are appreciated. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:08, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi! I would love to edit my previous post. Is there a way for you to cancel the deletion? It is the first time I contribute, it took me some time to do it, so if I don't need to spend too much time on it again, that would be nice. Thanks —The preceding comment was added by Noemieontheroad (talk • contribs)

You can always see what was edited by clicking on "View history" on any page. For example, if you look at this, you can see your version on the left. One other thing: Please sign your posts by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row at the end of messages on talk (discussion) pages like this one. Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:51, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

hi! Thanks for the very quick reply. I actually was trying to add a signature at the at the same time you were answering me. ::::Thanks for the explanation about the history. I beginning here, so it's really helpful.

Before I add adi guesthouse again, do you think that say that the owner is reliable and helpful is touting? For me it is a quality of this small hotel, to know that you won't be cheated or overcharged, but maybe it's more a trip advisor kind of thing. What's your opinion on that? Noemieontheroad (talk) 02:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

On the face of it, that sounds fine to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:00, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks

...for copyediting the Discover section. I should be more careful what I pretty much drag and drop from articles (Bahamas is of Spanish descent?) ϒpsilon (talk) 16:55, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Don't knock yourself too much - thanks for taking the time to do this work every week! All the best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:40, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks

Hi,

Thanks for adding me in the autopattroller group. Regards, Yann (talk) 13:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely. I'm very surprised that fell through the cracks for so long. You should have been made an autopatroller a long time ago. Thanks for all your good work! Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:37, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Sonoma Valley

Hi Ikan! Thanks for the great edits. I do tend to get a little chatty, even with my old work on building out the original Indianapolis article back in the day :) Anyway, living in Sonoma now I thought I'd work on things. Regarding Sonoma Valley and the "talk" section. Now that I re-read the understand guidelines, perhaps its' a good idea to move the section about some of the local lingo to Understand. What kind of subsection header should we give it? Thanks! Missvain (talk) 01:56, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi. First of all, I'm delighted that you're back and editing, and I love all the new content you're adding. I think I would use a subtitle of "Dress" in the "Understand" section for "Wine Country casual," but the rest of the lingo is fine to keep in "Talk," in my opinion.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:02, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Iseo

First of all thanks to have corrected my mistakes, then I want to answer to your questions:

1. the restoration of St. Silvestro hasn't been planned yet (they are collecting signatures and votes for the competition iluoghidelcuore). Perhaps it's bettere to delete this part.
2. You were right about wars museum.
3. "For want of St. Vigilio": the meaning is that the church was founded by this Saint.

Please tell me if i have to do some edits or if I made other mistakes or if you need some more information. --Lkcl it _(Talk) 09:00, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for all your work. I'll have a look when I have more time. "For want of [name of person]" in English means "Because [name of person] was lacking (=not there)." Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:07, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Now I understand the problem, I'm sorry. --Lkcl it _(Talk) 09:18, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

It's nothing to apologize for. You do the best you can and we can work with you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:25, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Milan

In the interlingual lounge you wrote that Milan article need a lot of work to become a Guide. Could you give me some other details? I haven't understood very well what should be written in Milan and what in the district pages. Thanks for your help. --Lkcl it _(Talk) 11:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I've yet to visit Milan, so I'm not the best person to answer in detail, but I'll note that:

(1) Two of the district articles are Outlines, while the rest are Usable. To be a Guide, all district articles must be at least Usable.

(2) There normally should be no bulleted lists in the article for a districted city, such as there is in "Do".

(3) Gay bars should not be listed in a separate section, but instead, should be listed in normal "Drink" sections in district articles. I think the actual paragraphs in "Drink/Gay and Lesbian Travellers" can be kept.

I'm sure other things will come up.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:42, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The first problem is solved, and I have a question about the second one (then I'll work on the third): should I make edits like these [26], [27]? Thanks --Lkcl it _(Talk) 18:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think having that marker there was doing any harm, so I'd say no. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:57, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

As you probably understood I misunderstood you, but I fixed reverting my edit. Now I hope to have understood: I'll remove the bullet list converting it into one or more paragraphs. --Lkcl it _(Talk) 08:14, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Excellent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

A quick question

What's your opinion on this pagebanner? Too boring? I could probably take another one, but I'd have to get on it quick before the snow starts. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

It has a very streamlined look. I think it's quite acceptable, though the extreme right could use some work, especially the thing that's in the upper right corner. By all means, take more photos if you have the time and inclination, but I don't think it's essential to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Logroño

Hi Ikan! I've seen your edit in Logroño and I want to thank you for your corrections. With "artifacts to experiment" I refer to some source of machines that are set in this garden to experiment with science. For example, spinning a wheel you can provoke a water vortex or in another one you listen to the echo. --Pablovp (talk) 09:28, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Pablo. So these are tools you can use to do your own experiments, then. The word "artifact" is most commonly used to mean an archeological relic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:49, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Is that a recognised US spelling? (In other Englishes, it's spelt as "artefact".) --W. Frank^email_talk 13:38, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. That's the US spelling. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Inadvertent loss of good material

Since you're much more diplomatic than I and have additional tools available, please would you take a close look at some of the many edits being made by User:Othello95?

He adds much good material but I am getting increasingly worried about good material that is being deleted - perhaps by mistake.

What do you make of the removal of Japanese and Malaysian style restaurants here? --W. Frank^email_talk 13:38, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I've given him a lot of latitude, but I was surprised by the edit to "Sports." I'll write him a note. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:33, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! --W. Frank^email_talk 14:46, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

repairing copy-paste moves

I notice that you warned 50.195.72.217 on July 5 about a cut-paste move which cut Washington, D.C./Northeast, dumped the content in Washington, D.C./Near Northeast unattributed (in its entirety) and then redirected the original page. This sort of cut-and-paste move creates attribution problems (as the history and contributor list is left behind at the old title) Wikipedia has a good explanation of Wikipedia:How to fix cut-and-paste moves but the process is awkward, especially if there were subsequent contributions after the move.

The same user has other copy-paste moves, including an August attempt to dump Tysons Corner into McLean (Virginia) and an attempt today to move Cleveland to Cleveland/Downtown. I haven't attempted to contact them directly, as this may require an admin to clean up any breaks in attribution (undoing a cut-and-paste move is a delete-move-undelete process to combine the article histories). K7L (talk) 17:15, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it's because I didn't get that much sleep today, but my brain doesn't seem to be completely processing this. If you're concerned with the user's edits to Cleveland, please post to Talk:Cleveland. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:52, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea what the user did to Cleveland, but I assumed it was mostly moving listings into the district articles. Powers ^(talk) 19:01, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

That's what it looked like to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:06, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

The Cleveland edits would be valid if they had a descriptive edit summary saying what was done, so if text was moved from Cleveland to Cleveland/Downtown credit is given where due to the original authors at Cleveland. Fair enough.

The Washington/Northeast copy-paste move was a bit more problematic as it moves the entire page, leaving the entire edit history on the old title hidden behind a redirect; from the history on Washington, D.C./Near Northeast it appears falsely that the IP is the sole author of all the text as of the date of the cut-and-paste move. That's where the entire history needs to be moved with the article; a mess to fix as this was done in July and there have been subsequent contributions at the new title. It's fixable, but to recombine the Washington/Northeast and Washington, D.C./Near Northeast histories into one requires deleting Washington, D.C./Near Northeast, moving Washington, D.C./Northeast over top of it, then undeleting the Washington, D.C./Near Northeast revisions so that the whole mess is one article with one unified revision history. That's the sort of repair which requires an admin (a delete and undelete) and is nearly impossible to undo (as it combines revisions of multiple pages in one edit history).

It's a bit hard to follow what the user is doing. K7L (talk) 02:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't volunteer to do these kinds of convoluted things just for the sake of a clearer history. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean you don't fix copy/paste moves because a clearer history isn't sufficient reasoning; or do you mean that you don't do copy/paste moves because they produce an unclear history? Powers ^(talk) 13:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I just find this overly complicated and don't find unclear histories to be a sufficient reason to go through these gymnastics. We all choose to focus on different things as volunteers here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:05, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't see the connection between your two statements. No one's forcing you to repair copy/paste moves, but at the same time, our licensing methods require someone to do so. It's not really a matter of discretion. Powers ^(talk) 17:03, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

And what I'm saying is that someone else can take care of it if they want to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:08, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Harassment from another user

Hi Ikan, It is with disappointment that I have to report user W. Fr*** (name censored for privacy reasons) for a behavior on my talk page that I believe is harassing. When we were debating about the use of the currency system, he wants me to put the Rupiah's currency notation using his own idea of the three letter designator (IDR) that does not comply with the Wikivoyage:Currency page. I decided that I have to alter the page about notating the Rupiah because based on the official Perfected Spelling System adopted for the Indonesian language, it contains no space (sorry, I am unable to find any link in English that supports the idea, if you request I can give the Indonesian website), only for him to force me change everything in favor of using the version before my alteration. Apparently this issue has not reached a consensus as it looks like my discussion on the specific talk page has been ignored and just filled with his pushy message. I had no idea of what he really meant when he said everything, but in my perspective, he poses threat. I'm not on both sides of debate but I only follow what is the consensus. Please mediate us in this cold-headed war between who's right and who's wrong and you're next in deciding what should be done.

P.S.: In this case, is there any way to message any other user privately? Othello95 (talk) 17:41, September 14 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you felt I was harassing you.

I wanted to suggest that you bring up your suggested change at the relevant discussion page of wv:$.

You did so very quickly - but then, and without giving a chance for others to comment on your proposed change of using the Rp symbol for the Indonesian rupiah without a trailing space, you plunged forward and changed our currency policy page unilaterally. While I admire your chutzpah I suspect that it is your imperfect understanding of English and the Wiki way that is causing you to feel harassed. Please note that I did not revert your unilateral changes in defiance of existing policy - merely suggest that you argue your rationale in the appropriate place and achieve a consensus for a (much needed, in my opinion) policy change.

As for private messaging, many users have allowed the e-mail facility to be activated. See my signature, for example... --W. Frank^email_talk 18:14, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

W. Frank, I think your suggestion that User:Othello95 downgrade his Babel to intermediate English was inaccurate and unhelpful. As for the rest, Othello, Frank is just unusually passionate about these issues of formatting. In this case, I agree with you about the format of the Rupiah —- not that I care a lot about these things, but since the official way in Indonesia is not confusing, we should just go with it, with the exception, as Frank points out, of using commas instead of the periods that are used in Indonesia. I hope that is acceptable to you guys. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:48, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Very well then, my no space decision stands, and so is your argument for the preferred use of comma. We both win this time, Frank. I'll be back reverting the display of prices in the Jakarta article. Othello95 (talk) 02:54, September 15 2014 (UTC)

September 19, 2014

I'm going to be in NYC next weekend, arriving at Penn Station Friday in the early afternoon with nothing to do till my brother gets off work about 7PM. I'd like to take you up on your offer, if possible. I realize this is extremely short notice - my whole trip is, frankly - but I figured I'd give it a shot, anyway. You can send me a Wikivoyage email if you like.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Upload files, Upload Wizard?

Hello! Sorry for writing in English. As you're an administrator here, please check the message I left on MediaWiki talk:Licenses and the village pump. Thanks, Nemo 19:23, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Driving in the UK

Thanks for tidying up the edit. I had meant to delete the second reference to the website but forgot. The site is a free resource under licence to DVSA, and the income is negligible. There are no other relevant articles to link to it, so there won't be other edits/links relating to it. I'll carry on looking for other typos, though. Cheers, Darren Motorracer (talk) 08:25, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, and the copy editing you're doing is much appreciated. Given what you're telling me, I think it's probably fine that the site is linked on all those pages, although you should be prepared to defend this in a talk page discussion if another editor decides to delete one or more of the links.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks - no problem. I've removed the ref section, too. I do a lot of copy editing on Wikipedia and I did read the policy here about external links but I didn't see anything specifically mentioning references. I also noticed that in some pages there are a lot of commercial links, e.g. to various rental car companies, to the exclusion of others. I'm not sure we need them seeing as Google does a fairer job. I'll continue tidying the pages up, anyway. Darren Motorracer (talk) 09:16, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

You're right about car rental companies. The policy here is, if it's easy to rent a car in a particular place, no car rental agencies are listed. And if it's not easy, all reputable companies should be listed. So please feel free to delete listings in those kinds of cases, giving your reasons in your edit summary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:37, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

revert and block

what is the logic behind reverting the edits and blocking 203.51.236.116? --Traveler100 (talk) 10:34, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Apparent Telstra vandal. The edit in Mago National Park was pretty obviously that user. And all s/he has to do is engage in a dialogue; that's the whole problem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:44, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Still do not get it. The two edits where both correct facts. It appears to be a new user. No one approached them to ask about the edits or point out what was wrong with them. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:39, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

This "new user" has been asked to reply to their talk page. See if they ever do. Are you familiar with the Telstra vandal case? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:05, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Please read through Wikivoyage:User ban nominations/Archive#Telstra vandal and look at the pattern of contributions in the links. It is a good and not a bad thing to avoid wasting time on this user, who never pays any attention to edit summaries or user talk page posts, very often commits copyright violation, and also posts a bunch of useless or nearly useless things, along with some useful corrections and such. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:11, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi, How should I do the vandalism?Can I block by true reason ?Yanlinnnaung (talk) 11:08, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying you've seen an example of vandalism? If so, please post to Wikivoyage:Vandalism in progress to inform admins about it. Only admins can block users' posting privileges. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:51, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Reversion at Pescara

Sorry for the reversion, it seemed an arbitrary elimination. Greetings.--Syum90 (talk) 09:15, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

No problem, but do you see why it wasn't arbitrary?

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:10, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, of course, I see it. Greetings.--Syum90 (talk) 00:04, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Greetings right back to you. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:46, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Wine

Re: this edit: Some research reveals the North Fork to be indeed highly regarded as a wine region, but the statement you inserted is kinda blah. "Also produces some very good wines" doesn't say much. What kind of wines do they specialize in? What makes the wineries on LI unique? It also adds a third sentence in a row using the word "also" and scans as "tacked on" to the paragraph. Is there any way we can punch it up a bit, make it flow better? Powers ^(talk) 14:11, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Sure. I'd have to do a little research to find out which wines they do best, though. I've had some good wines from there but I'm hardly an expert. I'll try to take a little time later, but I can't guarantee real life won't intervene. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for reverting Chantilly

Hi, thanks for reverting the article on [Chantilly (Virginia)]. I'm not sure what happened. The text looked O.K. in my web browser. Maybe one of my Firefox Addons accidentally deleted the text? Or perhaps the browser was acting incorrectly when I clicked the "save button". Bye Starionwolf (talk) 16:11, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

It's easy to do, and I've done it, too. You probably accidentally selected text. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:29, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Removal of audio files

Hi. Can you point me to any discussion that supports the removal of the audio links as in here? Such additions definitely add real avlue to phrasebooks (not everyone knows IPA and transcribing things phonetically may add confusion). Plus, it is always good to hear a native speaker say the phrasses. Wpedzich (talk) 18:10, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't disagree, but there is no consensus to allow such links. User:ϒpsilon provided 3 links to such discussions at Talk:Polish phrasebook#Audio files. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:00, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Reporting abuse

Sorry to bother you but I don't know where else to report this. It never occurred to me that the topic of driving in Doha could be so contentious on Wikivoyage. I have tried to be reasonable, but am unwilling to engage with this individual any further, or to continue to edit Doha.

Best, StellarD (talk) 02:14, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Addressed at your user talk page.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:08, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Golden Plates translation

Hi, Ikan. I appreciate the impulse behind this edit, but I think the questionable accuracy of Smith's account is made clear via the rest of the paragraph, and adding further disclaiming verbiage only serves to make the sentence more awkward. Keep in mind that I was using the word "translation" in the sense of "The end result of translating text", not "The act of converting or translating", which I think mitigates things a bit. It's also important to remember that we don't need to jump through extensive hoops to describe mythology as mythology. For example, in Bethlehem, we can say " the Romans set up a shrine to Adonis on the site of the Nativity" without having to say "on the site believed to have been the site of the Nativity" because the questionably historicity of the event has already been made clear earlier in the article. What do you think? Powers ^(talk) 02:18, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't have really strong views about this, so I'm fine with deferring to your judgment. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:22, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, and I apologize if I'm being pushy on this. Powers ^(talk) 11:28, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I didn't think you were pushy. No apology needed! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:02, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

"No reason"?

I don't understand why you asserted that there is "no reason" to include the Imagineering Field Guides in the Walt Disney World article. Please see my reply on the talk page, but I really think it was irresponsible of you to comment like that without knowledge of what the books are about. You've essentially stated that I performed an action without reason and advocated reversion of my edits without consulting with me or asking why I did what I did. That's disrespectful and not up to your usual standards. Powers ^(talk) 21:32, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I took the remark at face value and paid no attention to who had included those guides. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:59, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I apologize as well, as I thought I'd mentioned them in my initial post on the talk page. Still, this is the WDW article we're talking about; I've had a hand in just about every word there. =) Powers ^(talk) 12:34, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that, either. Basically, I need to be a little less knee-jerk sometimes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:36, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Hindi phrasebook

Hi Ikan, I noticed that you started the India expedition and made improvements to the Hinduism page. Thanks for all of your work on Wikivoyage.

I would like to get your advice on the Hindi phrasebook. Some of the sections are in a table format while other sections are in a non-table format. Russian phrasebook, which has star status, is not in table format but maybe it works better for Hindi. What are your thoughts? DaGizza (talk) 00:39, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Hello, thanks for starting the Hinduism topic, an important topic someone should have started before, and thanks for asking for my thoughts.

My reaction is that the standard we use at Wikivoyage is normally to have the words written in the original alphabet or syllabary, with a "pseudo-pronunciation" in parentheses, as shown in the Russian phrasebook. I think an exception is made in the Chinese phrasebook, though, where the original characters are transliterated into Pinyin. But since Devanagari is an alphabet, it seems to me that using a Latin transliteration that's standard is India is not useful to English-speaking travellers, so while the tables in "Vowels" and "Consonants" are useful though not standard for Wikivoyage and could perhaps be retained, I would definitely suggest eliminating the tables in the rest of the phrasebook and substituting a useful form of pseudo-pronunciation for the non-useful transliterations. I can't tell how to pronounce "praņām" at a glance, and that's what pseudo-pronunciations (or pseudo-transliterations, if you like) are supposed to enable English-speakers to do, as much as possible.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:19, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, I will follow a w:Hunterian transliteration-ish style as much as possible and get rid of all of the complicated diacritic symbols. It is easy to change the vowels to pseudo-English pronunciation (ā becomes aa, ī becomes ee and ū becomes oo) but it will be more of a challenge for the consonants. There are different "n" and "t" and "d" sounds. But even on the signs in India written in English, these sounds aren't differentiated. I guess the keen language learner can learn the Devanagari sounds accurately but the traveller who doesn't have much time can just pronounce as best they can. The locals will still be impressed even if you have an accent. :) DaGizza (talk) 00:08, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like a good approach to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:53, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

You're Welcome

Hi, this is Ibaman, who mostly appears under the 200.252. IP number, plugged elsewhere. Always watching. Thank YOU for the amazing, tireless effort in WV. 187.36.75.70 14:23, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

You're most welcome. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:34, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

• Sydney

Oh well! If you checked the link, it's fine then. :) 187.36.75.70 02:00, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

How do I upload a picture in jpeg format into the wikivoyage article I am creating

When I copy a jpeg that resides on my computer in my MY DOCUMENTS and try to past it into the article I am in process of writing the wiki s/w will not allow me to paste

The jpegs are important to the itinerary I am working on —The preceding comment was added by Sloflash (talk • contribs)

Except for some unusual cases in which photos are important for travelers but not covered by Freedom of Panorama laws, jpegs are uploaded to Wikimedia Commons and then linked as thumbnails. Wikivoyage:How to add an image talks you through the process (note the linked text "How to upload files" near the end of the "Find available images" paragraph, which redirects you to a page on Commons).

By the way, if you haven't checked out Commons before, you're in for a load of enjoyment. I look at Commons almost every day, and like to link really good Commons photos in order to add value to Wikivoyage articles.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:56, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I can't upload my photo to my user page at wikivoyge.Give me some advice!Yanlinnnaung 17:01, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Yanlinnnaung. I'd give you the same advice I gave Sloflash above. Photos need to be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons and then linked as thumbnails on this site. Start by following the directions here (you'll need to use [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:UploadWizard the Commons Upload Wizard to upload the file, but the previous link gives you information to read before you go through that process). Then, when you've successfully uploaded the image to Commons, follow the directions at Wikivoyage:How to add an image.

I realize it could be complicated the first time. Do you have any questions now that you've read these links? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:20, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi,Ikan Kekek.Thanks for your advices that is worked.Great! Yanlinnnaung (talk) 04:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad it worked. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:15, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi,Ikan Kekek.I can't do to add a jpeg photo to pagebanner by https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Images-37.jpeg .Why that ?Help me!!!Yanlinnnaung (talk) 19:00, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

First, a formatting request: Please put your newest post at the end of this topic, so it's easy to follow. I'm guessing the problem is that you didn't use the thumbnail format, which would look like this (without the "nowiki"): [[File:Images-37-jpeg|thumb|Desired caption (write what you want here, within reason)]] Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:25, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

"don't tout"

Hi,

Can you please specify where and how did we use tout? And if you are going to remove the properties you can atleast let us know which ones and specify why.

Thanks —The preceding comment was added by BaliTjendanaVillas (talk • contribs)

Selamat datang dan terima kasih untuk menulis disini!

Have you read Wikivoyage:Don't tout yet? If you haven't, please read it and see if it answers your questions about what "touting" is, under the policies this site follows by consensus. Also, please look at editing summaries, which you can also see in the editing histories of articles. For example, you can see my remarks in the edit summary for the Nusa Lembongan article:

Edits per don't tout. Normally, you can't have more than one listing anywhere. It may make sense to allow a single "Do" listing in addition to your "Sleep" listing, but no way is it reasonable for you to have 3 listings. Don't use "we" or tout.

Wikivoyage:Don't tout will make clear what I mean by "more than one listing": For example, if you own a villa that has a garden, a pool, a bar and a restaurant, that doesn't mean it's appropriate for you to post 5 listings to an article.

I should say that your listings have become less touty lately, but I still get a bit of a whiff of promotion from at least some of them, so please watch that, given that this site is non-commercial. We do very much welcome business owners who want to share their knowledge with travellers, though. Please have a look at the welcome, business owners page for some thoughts on that, and write me back if you have any more questions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:54, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

i don't understand why you have removed my listing, at least you can explain ! it was at skopje, macedonia, under sleep- budget, the name is arss apartment

Alphabetizing sections

You re-alphabetized the "Eat" section of Lakeland, Florida, after I added an entry. Is there an app or a tool to automate alphabetizing a section once I add entries to it? If so, I will make note of it in my talk page for future use. Thanks. Wpollard (talk) 22:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't know of such a tool. Perhaps someone might suggest something if you ask in the Pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:20, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

email due

will eventually send a complex explanation as to the long absence - about to start editing again after it all - trust all is well - have had a range of barriers to regular voyage editing - about to break through and get back into it all - trust you are well... sats (talk) 15:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I am well, thank whomever/whatever. You don't have to explain anything to anyone, but the main thing is that I'm happy to hear from you and hope things are OK. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:40, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Nah, I see things look quiet on the Oz-trylian front, need to get into it again, but the email - as much an explanation will be a christmas greeting offline as well... sats (talk) 01:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Wow in hindsight, and a small wander into some, a huge number of Indonesian articles have been clearly edited by non native english speakers and many parts are almost intelligible. But what really gets my beef - when I lived in Yogya - I never hard of rulers of Mangkunegara/Surakarta/Yogyakarta/Pakualaman as being designated as Kings - yet on wp en, and here it seems the rage with the eds who end up here to use the term - do you have any idea why this particular gloss? If no easy answer - I would have thought that such a translation is weird and not really appropriate - you thoughts would be appreciated on this matter. sats (talk) 14:11, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

There have been a lot of edits by an Indonesian user who posts plenty of information, but all of it has to be copy-edited, and I revert some of it at times. We also have another editor whose command of English is quite good. I do think that king is a good translation of raja or sultan, though. Why not? Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:28, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

good point - why not? - ok, as I said I never heard the usage by english speakers or english speaking indonesians in the 90s. I have all my multiple dictionaries from my fieldwork in storage, must dig them up and find if I am wrong - or not in my intuition. sats (talk) 13:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

We could always just use the word raja or sultan, but otherwise, how else would you translate their title into English? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:43, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The source of concern arises from indonesian editors getting into wp en - in most cases with limited or no english - adding all the honorifics to the various rulers in java. That is the source of this issue. Sri Sultan.... dan lain lain.... - with no understanding of why honorifics are left off in wp en (even people with Sir... and others - being simply their raw name with honorifs left off in name of article). So HB IX cannot be simply HBIX as far as the eds have it - all the beginning bits happen. So having never haerd 'king' in fieldwork, I have been fascinated how it has crept in - and of course the fierce Solo - Yk (Jogja) rivalry over 300 years - the appelation 'sultan' and 'susuhunan' as markers and identifiers of what side of prmabnan you come from.... as I havent been 'in country' since the 90s I am not sure what current usage in javanese or indonesian media is - but I think king is wrong, and either the local appelation of sultan/susuhunan/ or the more neutral 'ruler/raja' might be more neutral. But hey just my very skewed point of view. sats (talk)

hi

I don't understand why this addition is considered as spam as long everything follows the guidelines. —The preceding comment was added by Myconiancollection (talk • contribs)

I appreciate that you read my message and would like to address it. But my response is: No, it doesn't follow this site's guidelines. Read don't tout. You might also want to read welcome, business owners. Business owners are most welcome here, but like all other volunteer editors, you have to function within the rules of the site. Read through those links, and then feel free to ask me questions relating to any details.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:43, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Please sign talk page posts by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row at the end of your posts. Thank you.

Be Good

User talk:Ikan Kekek,

you should learn how to talk to others. beware of others capabilities and make sure to not involve your self in warnings etc.

See you soon. —The preceding comment was added by 182.188.147.247 (talk • contribs)

IK, I'm wondering what made this user to say this. Anyways, I've closed the edit-drive. It is not helping, rather people making non-constructive edits. --Saqib (talk) 17:31, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea. It's always good for people to give context. But I suppose it has to do with a warning that someone is likely to be blocked if they continue to spam tout or edit war as a touter. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:26, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

style tags

Hi Ikan - I started going through the lists of articles that have a {{style}} tag with no suggested fix (see Category:Style tags without suggested fixes) and came across Baclayon, which you tagged in 2013 [28]. I wasn't sure why the tag was added, so can you either add a suggested fix for the style tag or remove the style tag if the issues have been resolved? Thanks! -- Ryan • (talk) • 05:08, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that worthy work, Ryan. I'm not sure why I added the style tag then, and I now try to give more or less detailed suggestions for style fixes when I insert style tags, but I didn't initially realize that I was able to do so. Anyway, I fixed the problems that seemed to be continuing issues in that article and deleted the style tag. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:21, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! The discussion at Talk:Albany (New York)#Conversion to templated listings got me wondering how many articles are tagged with style tags where no one is quite sure whether the problem has been fixed or not, so I spent some time this morning tweaking the {{style}} template so that it's possible to figure out when the "suggested fix" parameter is blank, and I then started going through some of those articles and removing the style tag where it isn't clear why it's there; over 150 such articles remain, so it's not a task I'm likely to get very far on. -- Ryan • (talk) • 06:29, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll try to tweak "style" tags when I see them in articles without explanation and have the time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:31, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Jakarta will more severe traffic jams in rainy season

I live in Bekasi and sometimes go to Jakarta. From Bekasi to pay inner toll road fee in Cawang sometimes need 45 minutes. In rainy season, when rain and after rain, Jakarta will more severe in traffic jams, because floods or no floods because the water only maybe 5 to 10 centimeters above roads, but nobody can guarantee there are no hole below the water, so people drive carefully and slowly, many motorcycles have engine failure and many motorcycles avoid rain park below overpass and only give one lane from 3, 4 or 5 lanes for cars which run certainly slowly. The effect frequently make traffic jam occur up to 2 to 3 hours after the rain stop or at least one hour after, before no traffic jams. One traffic jam in certain location has snowball effect to traffic jams in other locations. If I don't mistaken Jakarta is one of the worst three of traffic jams in the world.Gsarwa (talk) 07:35, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that you posted that information in "Understand." It needs to be in the appropriate "Get around" section. The other problem is that not only would the text have to be moved, it also would have to have been drastically copy edited, and I simply didn't feel like doing all of that, so I deleted, with a request to you to at least put the edit in the most useful section. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I'll be honest with you: I appreciate your helpful attitude and the fact that you add content, but just about every single one of your edits has to be copy edited, and I find that tiring. Sometimes, I find it a lot easier to just revert your edits. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:50, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

I added a very short summary (1 sentence) of your main points in the introduction to Jakarta#Get around. I think one way you can improve your edits is by trying to keep them as short as possible, without details that travellers don't need to know about. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:51, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your clarification.Gsarwa (talk) 14:43, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:17, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Appreciation and clarification for your comment on Varzaneh page

Dear Ikan Kekek,

First of all, thank you for your attention. Yes, the article is being copied and pasted. However, I am the author of the original article. Moreover, I will be preparing this article in a word file, completely written by myself and I have already published the majority of that in other wikisources, including wikitravel. Please give me some time, I will be uploading many of the images. I need to emphasize that I have much of your guidelines and it is necessary to mention that, many of the photos are captured by myself, or from Varzanehmiras.ir, which publishes free licensed photos. However, the texts will be edited, and updated due to my frequent personal trips.

Please let me know or any other concern you might have. —The preceding comment was added by Mohammad-javad-Isfahan (talk • contribs)

Mohammad, your explanation is much appreciated. You would retain the copyright, since it's your own work. There are some special issues regarding Wikitravel, though. Please have a look at Wikivoyage:Wikivoyage and Wikitravel. In terms of how to deal with the image files, please have a look at the Upload Wizard on Wikimedia Commons and Wikivoyage:How to add an image. I'll look forward to seeing the progress of the article.

Thanks, and all the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:12, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Dear Ikan,

Again, thank you for you attention, and providing further information. For me, it was really important how wikitravel is kind of separated from other wiki projects. Due to your information, I completely understand it and I shall declare that now on, I put wikivoyage on a priority for any contribution, as now I feel that wikivoyage is completely independent, charitable website as a member of wiki family. I will be editing the page of Varzaneh, and I find myself very responsible to input correct and precise information from any other major travel destinations that I have. As for now, every single sentence of Varzaneh article is mine and the photos are mostly my job, unless it is precisely mentioned about alternative sources, in wikimapia.

Keep in touch, Mohammad

Again, much appreciated. Glad to have you here!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:34, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Template:Tout‎

Since you're the site's most prolific patroller I'd be interested in your feedback at Template talk:Tout‎, even if it's just a simple "support" or "oppose" message. I've been meaning to put together a standard talk page message for touts for my own use for some time, but figured there was probably value in creating a site-wide standard. Thanks for any feedback! -- Ryan • (talk) • 06:31, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Recommended mid-sized city article with a good 'Get in - by plane' section

Hi Ikan, I'm looking at cleaning up the get in by plane section of Semarang as in my opinion it is too messy and have many unnecessary details - that table is eww..

Any good / star article to refer to as an example? I've been looking at some articles but ideally I want to see the section in a city article with similar airport significance (top 10 or so in the country, a trickle of international, mostly domestic - definitely not an airport needing its own article) Found the Hiroshima, Bali, and Copenhagen star articles. Can you point to a good article you could suggest for me to have a look and feel of how the section is supposed to be?Ditz (talk) 21:22, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

You could also look at Washington, D.C. and Albuquerque. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:13, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Ttcf

Hi Ikan - I reverted the addition of the autopatroller flag for this user since the user's editing pattern matches that of 118.93nzp and W. Frank. So far as I know no other editors use the "WV:Aou" shortcut [29], none consistently change the spelling of "traveler" [30], etc. With the exception of accusations against NainTours [31] this latest account hasn't yet been disruptive, but based on past history I don't think adding an autopatroller flag is a good idea at this time. -- Ryan • (talk) • 22:24, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks for explaining. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:52, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello

Hi, Thanks for the welcome tips. I am finding a lot of properties not listed so I have been adding them to the talk sections. I was wondering if you have 5 mins and could take a look and confirm that I am approaching this in a way that shouldn't get me blocked from wikivoyage. example: https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Talk:Cheshire —The preceding comment was added by VerbInteractive (talk • contribs)

In short, you are acting exactly according to policy. But in addition, for the benefit of people not familiar with the properties in question, please make a specific argument for each listing, and we can then come to a consensus on the talk pages and probably work this out to the benefit of travellers, you and the site. Thanks for working within this policy; it's a refreshing, unusual experience. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you I will do that going forward, I was worried about that detailing the property might appear too self promotional. I will try to keep it factual. Thanks again. —The preceding comment was added by VerbInteractive (talk • contribs)

You're welcome. Just one request: On talk pages (and only on talk pages), please sign your screenname by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Qarsaa

I may be wrong about the article but Kersa, Hararge is in Ethiopia.--Traveler100 (talk) 06:11, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Hmmmm...Well OK, let's check and see whether that mosque is in Ethiopia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:17, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

In web searches, I've found nothing about the mosque, nothing about the mountain, nothing even about Kosum and Dolu, where the article originally said "there are undergroun water." So I'm none the wiser. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:23, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

I also struggled to find anything. Only references to mosques I can find are in Oromo, which I cannot read. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:57, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

If that particular mosque is referenced in Oromo, then this place is indeed in Ethiopia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:11, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

I found nothing specific enough, also interpretation of spelling is a challenge. Suggest we wait and see if the contributor comes back with more information. I see they have done some edits on Wikipedia, en. and om. --Traveler100 (talk) 09:01, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

What does .om stand for? If that's Oromo, I think we should go ahead and restore the link you inserted and I deleted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

baner

hi lkan . this baner is 2000x 300 or 7:1 and true color what is problem? —The preceding comment was added by شاملو (talk • contribs)

Please sign your screen name on talk pages (only) by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row.

The problem is that custom pagebanners are replaced only by consensus on the relevant talk page. Please join the discussion currently taking place at Talk:Iran. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:13, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek:؛ Well, what results did? شاملو (talk) 23:34, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Let's just discuss this more on Talk:Iran. This isn't just between you and me, and other people may have things to say. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:46, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek:؛ So we change the image and the feedback we have accepted?

@Ikan Kekek:؛ So do not be upset if I change the picture and we look forward to hearing others. ok? شاملو (talk) 00:01, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not upset. We're just following standard procedure, which requires a consensus. Please be patient. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:26, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek:؛I'll give you one day soon proved wrong picture and then we change it. And you will agree. ok

Please stop contacting me about this. The discussion is at Talk:Iran. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:44, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek:؛ Dear friend, we had enough time, and I think you'll agree this is so intense Does? شاملو (talk) 19:10, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

I said, stop contacting me about this. The discussion in at Talk:Iran. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:34, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Pagebanner issues

Thanks for the heads-up. I was basically replacing one image I had created from another photograph with an image I had created entirely, and not many other people have an interest in that page. I'm certainly aware that one doesn't change a biggie, however, without some consensus. Daniel Case (talk) 07:12, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Shahbazpur

You may be interested in a discussion taking place at User talk:Texugo#Sockpuppets, chased from EN wikipedia to here. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 16:27, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't recall anything about this though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Award for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	Friendly User
	Please accept this award!!! ;) Angellene10 (talk) 08:36, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Award for you!!!!!!!!!!!!

	Deep Thinker User Award
	Please accept it!!Thanks for helping me!! You are genius in editing!! ;) Angellene10 (talk) 09:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Award for you!

	Ground Breaker User!
	Accept this!!! Thanks for helping me!!! That's why Bomb because you're super super friendly for me .... ;) Angellene10 (talk) 09:33, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

An Award for you!

	A Diligent User for Me!
	I will give you many awards!! and please give me awards at least 3 !! ok hahaha joke !! :P Angellene10 (talk) 10:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

LOL. Too many award. --Saqib (talk) 14:49, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks User:Angellene10. You're funny! Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:44, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your kindness!! ;) May I call you Kuya,if you are a boy,I call you Ate if you are a girl!! Agree?? I don't know if you are a boy or girl..Because in your User page,,did not tell me if you are Female or Male.. Please,say it to me,or leave a message in my talk page!! ;)Thanks Kuya/Ate !!! Angellene10 (talk) 01:53, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm a guy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:11, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Talk back

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ADLindsley&diff=2703828&oldid=2703806 DLindsley (talk) 16:14, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome

Glad to get involved, used this site as a resource many times, figured it's time I throw something back in. One thing re: the specific details in the regional sections... Although I know it's not to standard, most of what I've been entering this evening are for locations in rural areas or towns with less than a thousand people - places that (I would think) lack the size to justify their own pages. Is it actually recommended practice to create pages for every one-horse town?

Jmackay80 (talk) 02:24, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

There are some exceptions: For example, Rural Montgomery County. That kind of solution is unusual but can work in certain circumstances.

All the best,

08:53, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks!

spambot

I'm a bit unsure about this spambot block:

• Special:Contributions/176.214.253.178
• Special:Contributions/MarjoriClark

The spambot appears to be on the IP, the block on an account with no contribs? While there's been no further WV spam, a look at https://cleantalk.org/blacklists/176.214.253.178 suggests the IP is one which should be blocked if it's not already on any global (Wikimedia-wide) block lists. K7L (talk) 01:31, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to jump in, but the MarjoriClark account is definitely a spambot - see [32], which was originally created by User:MarjoriClark. I've blocked the 176.214.253.178 IP as well as it also appears to be a spambot. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:56, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. K7L (talk) 03:36, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

User:Ttcf

IK and Pashley. I've been told by User:Jianhui67 to remove the auto-patrol rights of said editor because User:Ttcf is indef. blocked and I think thats totally fine. Perhaps at some point, we may remove his blockage but its important to keep an eye what kind of edits he makes. While you both gave the said editor autopatrol rights, so please applogies if It offended you but as Ryan also said its better to hold off. If you still thinks, the right should be given back. Please do so. --Saqib (talk) 17:04, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Of course. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:49, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Photolist

Does something similar to it:Template:Photolist exist on en.voy? I'd like to translate the see section from Franciacorta, but I can also add photos manually. Thanks (also for your edit on Franciacorta) --Lkcl it _(Talk) 13:07, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks for your edits, too! I'm sorry, but I don't know the answer to your question. You might try posting to the Pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Help with dynamic map

I've been trying to figure out what to do about the dynamic map on User:AndreCarrotflower/East Side for a long time. Currently, even though I've trimmed down its frame so that the outer borders of the district are as close to the edge as possible, the map still seems too big. But if I expand the map to zoom level 12, not only does it become far less usable, but the portion of the map that would be covered by markers drops well below the standard 400x600 dimensions. Any advice? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:53, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm really not sure. I guess it's impossible to use decimal points in zoom levels? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:25, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for commenting unasked, I just saw your post. I don't really find the map that large. If it would be a short article, the map would soon be disproportionate, but you're not known for creating particularly short entries ;-) Usability is key. The map may be slightly larger than you'd like, but in my eyes it's not at all unacceptable if this the more useful zoom level. Just my opinion. JuliasTravels (talk) 20:33, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Julias. :) I was particularly concerned about how awkward the text looks, on my screen at least, stuffed in a narrow column to the left of the map. But I suppose it would be equally acceptable to simply center the map and have the the Understand section start immediately below it. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:04, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

That map barely fits on one page on my laptop, so yeah, I guess the size may be OK. How would it look on a cell phone? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:51, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

On my iPhone 5S it looks basically the same as on my desktop monitor. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:57, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

That's good. I favor viewability. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

(reindent) Better now? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:41, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Pinging JuliasTravels as well. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:42, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

That's really clear. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:24, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, on my screen the text wasn't all that jammed on the left, so for me it didn't need the central position. However, if this solves the issues for your screen too, I'd say this is fine. And we'll see what happens when you have all the text complete, you can always judge then if you like it centralised or not. JuliasTravels (talk) 21:49, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I also doubt it needs to be justified center. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:03, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

(reindent) My screen has a 1024x768 pixel resolution. This is what the map looks like for me when it's not centered and when the width is adjusted back down to 450 pixels (it's at 600 currently, to cut down on the white space along either side of the mapframe). While it's not an absolutely unacceptable scenario, the text at left strikes me as a bit too squished for comfort. I was over at my mom's apartment earlier today; she has a widescreen monitor and the dimensions of the map were much more tolerable when right-justified. But all in all, I'd prefer a solution that's suitable for as many different display settings as possible. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:16, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

That's pretty convincing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:18, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

It's a matter of taste, I suppose. While the text is a bit squished in that screenshot, I don't find it unacceptable and would say the aesthetics are overall better. It's a bit of a trade-off in terms of screen sizes, I guess. The centralized one doesn't look so great on a wider screen, while the right-justified one is less great on e.g. your screen. I presume widescreen is most used now? Maybe that's something to take into consideration. Again though, it's better judged when the article is more or less complete. In any case we all agree you have nothing to worry about ;-) JuliasTravels (talk) 23:25, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

RE: External links policy (Meteora)

Hi, wasn't aware of that, sorry. The thing is that these are as "official" as it gets here in Greece, because unfortunately there aren't any websites of the Monasteries. Said that, I will leave the "See" section as it is now.

Cheers —The preceding comment was added by Kostaschasiotis (talk • contribs)

Thanks. Too bad about the websites. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Hilton Head Island

Hi Ikan, sorry about my edit there; it was mostly the position of the link that threw me off. However I've just read Wikivoyage's guidance on the matter, which does permit such links in that position, so it's all good. Graham87 (talk) 08:30, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, it's all good; it's not a self-explanatory thing at all.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:46, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

New discussion

Ikan stop editing, suggest first Atanuami (talk) 16:15, 23 January 2015 (UTC) Atanuami

Have you edited on a Wiki before? You're trying to order me around instead of engaging in dialogue. That's not going to work well. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:17, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

HNY

Indonesian articles are getting worse... sats (talk) 07:56, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't always have the patience to copy edit them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:02, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Yogyakarta traffic jams

Traffic jams in Malioboro street and through to North Central Park are severe in traffic jams, by limiting buses through pass make traffic jams more controllable. Indirectly it will make more difficult to travellers go inside to Jeron Beteng and make also tourist visits drop (has happen). Big buses are usually carry old foreign tourists and they are difficult to change to other moda or at least want always in a group and play safety and don't think they can walk along Malioboro street. Indonesia has rapid changing in tourism business and sites, so electronic encyclopedia, I think should be updated regularly and certainly it is different with old printed encyclopedias. Low-cost airlines in Asia article is not updated for years, it also same with Indonesia article when I first time contribute it. Thank you for your query.Gsarwa (talk) 14:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

This isn't an encyclopedia. All that travellers need to know is the current situation, as it pertains to them, with a bit of background that's interesting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:03, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I think you may be misunderstanding what this user is trying to say, Ikan? The point of the sentence he added is that you can't use the many tourist buses to get into Jeron Beteng or North Central Park, because they are not allowed to go there. That seems relevant? JuliasTravels (talk) 22:24, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Three things - the user adds from their perception as to what might or not be relevent to tourist esxperience in his/her/etc world, and secondly - in most cases Ikan has to, if he has the time, edit the entries to make sense of them in english. thirdly, Yogya has always been a nightmare for traffic, even thirty years ago when I first went there. As a potentially old foreign tourist now, I would expect that it hasnt improved, so I would not need to know the 2010s variation of a difficult time getting around the crowded streets. The nature of 'useful', 'helpful' or unnecessary information in non-standard english renders most Indonesian tourism articles difficult to apprehend, and at times incomprehendable mixes of potentially misleading information. It would be nice to think of the problem in positive terms, but its hard. sats (talk) 01:33, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

JuliasTravels, it wouldn't be surprising if I didn't understand what Gsarwa meant. To be honest, I often have trouble understanding what he means, though I certainly try. But my main point to Gsarwa, always, is please summarize and simplify as much as possible and if you have any doubt about whether something might be interesting to a traveler, leave it out. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:03, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the comments for all of you. Certainly I know diferent (may be not to much) between Wikipedia and Wikivoyage. When the first time I contribute wikivoyage I rather surprise that wikivoyage have no references, so I hope all the contributors are faithfully enough. I contribute when there are no other contributors contribute of the certain article. When I want to contribute something, I'm fast reading the article first and if there are contribution which it is better that I want to contribute, I always cancel my contribution candidate. But if my contribution candidate will be better as a contribution, I always combine my contribution and the contribution exsisted, because I'm an inclusionist and not agree with deletionism when it is not necessary, although to delete is easier than to be an inclusionist. IMO wikivoyage is rather out of date than Wikipedia. One of the benefit of electronic media is continous update. I don't know the structure of Wikipedia compare to Wikivoyage? Is the editor in Wikipedia and Wikivoyage is the same, and also the administrator? Wikipedia has good structure of Editor and also knowledge of English, such as Native speaker, En-1, etc. When I edited Wikipedia about optics in Photography, I know that who usually edit my contribution, throw the ball to who know well about optics. I don't know in Wikivoyage, when I contribute about Yogyakarta is also read and edited by who know well about Yogyakarta or not, but certainly is more difficult to Wikivoyage to try same thing with Wikipedia. But I notice when I mention about RV (Caravan), some one who know well about it and frequently use the RV, edit my contribution. Thank you again for reading it and I hope all of us have open minded well.Gsarwa (talk) 15:49, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Dengan Hormat Gsarwa, bahasa inggeris is not your strength... with the problem of some of your contributions, they might make sense to you, but to native speakers we do not understand. Keep it simple, keep your sentences short. Kalau terlalu lama, bingung!!! Please try to keep your sentences short, and try to understand the differences between Wikipedia english, and Wikivoyage. Often there are things that are interesting to your understanding of what might be useful information, but remember semua londo biasanya lihat cepat dan terus di luar dari disini for a very short time, stays in yogya have been always short. There are things people do not need to know for a short visit. Please understand, shorter sentences, and care with what your write. sats (talk) 16:08, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your wejangan. When I contribute to Wikivoyage Indonesia article, I ever contribute more than 7,000 (if I don't mistaken) characters in only one contribution (means Indonesia article is not updated well) and most of it has been reverted in several edits, so after that moment I frequently contribute certainly in least characters, but maybe is not clear, because when I try to contribute rather long, editors are understand, but sometimes they trim it and say it are not necessary to contribute to detail. In wikipedia maybe I have known the leeway, because I have known that every editors have different view about certain thing, although certainly they use same Wikipedia guidances. In Wikivoyage I am not yet find the clue. So, I stress to the context first, when I contribute to Wikivoyage.Gsarwa (talk) 04:16, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Gsarwa, to me the real issue is that if we had as many editors as Wikipedia, I wouldn't usually be the only person editing your work. I really can't do it by myself, so if I find it really too hard to make sense of, I revert it, and if I can make sense out of it but it needs a lot of copy editing that I don't have the energy for, I just leave it for possible later work. But I'll say this: If you are putting in information about the history of transportation in a particular place, I don't think it's relevant to the interests of a traveler now. If you are putting in details that are relevant to a bus driver but not to a tourist or business traveler in a private car, I don't think they're relevant to the interests of a traveler. If you're inputting information on likely routes to take to avoid traffic jams or the pricing and types of accommodation in different modes of travel, that is relevant and helpful to travelers. I'd advise you to write only the minimum amount of background necessary for a reader to be able to make sense out of the gist of your content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much that you are frequently edit my contributions, I appreciate it so much. I don't know about the burden of work in Wikipedia and Wikivoyage. I only know a little bit that the active contributors in Wikipedia is only about 2,000 persons and in Wikivoyage maybe less. The editors and also administrators are frequently use several names including anonyms by using url number only. I'm an immediatist that I think it is needed in electronic media, so when I mentioned about compact camera market share declined and grab by smartphones, someone revert it, although there are sufficient references and in talk palk there are also comments that it is impossible. But the fact now it is true. I realize that inclusionist vs deletionist, immediatist vs maturist and context vs eloquent English will always happen. So, I think you are in the right position as I do also, but maybe different principles and different point of views will always make us in slight different places(I hope it is not a lot).Gsarwa (talk) 15:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Lucky102

Hi, Lucky102 here. I did not do anything, and I did not make my account for spam. I am an editor on wikipedia under the same username so that is why lucky102 is my username. If I edited an article it was either to improve it or fix a spelling or grammar mistake. Hope this answers any queries and my account can still go ahead. I actually edited the article about Nenagh to a much higher standard so I don't know why it was deleted. Lucky102 (talk) 15:14, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm confused by your message. User:Lucky102 has exactly 3 contributions. That account has no deleted contributions. I did, however, recently delete this spam that User:109.86.156.143 put up in place of where your user page would be. No-one is allowed to put up a page on another user's user page, least of all a spam page. Furthermore, that IP user has no contributions, only the one spam page I deleted. So what is it that you're really requesting? Your account clearly isn't blocked, as you posted the message above. Please go ahead and edit! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:35, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi again. Phew, I must have read that wrong! Could you please revert the Nenagh article to the way I edited it, as it improved on every section and it included a few photos. Thanks :) Lucky102 (talk) 13:25, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Now I'm even more confused. User:Lucky102 has no edits in the Nenagh article on Wikivoyage, according to its revision history. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:15, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I mean the IP edits Lucky102 (talk) 11:18, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea which IP edits you're talking about, but you've spent a lot of time asking me to do something you can do yourself - namely, edit an article. Please do it yourself. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:59, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

On the Nenagh article the IP edits were deleted, by you presumably, due to you leaving a message on their talk page. I cannot edit something to the way it was if I cannot remember it, ergo asking you to put it back to the way the IP edit was... Lucky102 (talk) 11:54, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I have no edits on the Nenagh article, as you can see by looking at its revision history, which I linked above. I really don't understand what you're talking about. The spam I deleted on your user page started thusly: "Prompt service on writing essays..." If you'd like to edit the Nenagh article, just do it. I consider this matter, whatever it is, closed. Thank you and goodnight. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:59, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Lucky102: Perhaps you're talking about. --Saqib (talk) 12:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Saqib. Perhaps that link will solve the mystery. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:05, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Lucky102, I suggest you check out the edit history of Nenagh. There you can find who's edited the article and when, plus the content of each edit (by clicking "prev" next to the edit you're interested in). BTW here is the last IP edit on that article. Is it you (i.e. have you been editing from Brisbane, Australia)? ϒpsilon (talk) 13:12, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Ypsilon No, those are not my edits. My edits were more recent than 2013, but they are not in the history at all. Lucky102 (talk)

Did you look at the Wikitravel link? We keep records of deletions here. I have never seen a situation in which anyone's work on Wikivoyage vanished without a trace, so I doubt this'll be the first time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

The IP you posted earlier (109.86.156.143) is in Ukraine, and I ain't in Ukraine... It is the wikitravel link. Lucky102 (talk)

Lucky102, as Saqib earlier suggested, maybe it is the Nenagh guide on Wikitravel you've been editing, then? Wikitravel is a completely different travel site. ϒpsilon (talk) 11:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Deleting spams

When you delete spams, it is good idea to blank the box below boilerplate reason so that actual spam message does not appear on deletion log. — Revi 16:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I didn't think of that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:10, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

If I am correct log is not something that can be searched from Google (and its' friend) but precaution is a good thing. :) Next time you delete them, make sure to blank the box! (It doesn't take long time, does it?) — Revi 16:15, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

No. I don't think anyone is doing that. Maybe this is something to bring up at the Pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:24, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh, is it too hard for you to just blank the box for precaution? You want discussion for this simple thing? I do blank the reason box when I delete things (where I am admin...), but I don't want to make pointless and never-ending talk like this, so I will stop here. Happy editing, — Revi 16:36, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I think that Ikan's point about discussion is that if it's something admins should be doing then it should be brought up in a place that will get more exposure than his talk page. Personally, I think it's a preference thing - I usually don't blank the box so that others can get a sense of what's being deleted. -- Ryan • (talk) • 16:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it may be good not to delete, for record-keeping. Also, I just recently had occasion to refer to the beginning of a deleted spam - see the section immediately above this in this page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:52, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

New discussion

Thanks Ikan —The preceding comment was added by Rberchie (talk • contribs)

You're welcome. Thanks for contributing to articles about Ghana. We need them.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:33, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you

Thanks for giving me autopatroller rights, Ikan! Much appreciated. -- Half past (formerly 'SUFCboy') 17:08, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. I looked at your posting history, and it certainly seemed warranted.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:14, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Re:Seattle

Oh no, I didn't have a DotM nomination in mind (though upon considering it, that certainly would be nice!). I just noticed it was in bad need of some copyediting and decided to make a little project out of it. :) PerryPlanet (talk) 08:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Re:Argo

Thank you so much for your guidance. I have corrected it and made addition, hopefully it will be better, but some trim or make it concise maybe neccessary. Your guidances are important for me, so I know exactly which ones should be improved.Gsarwa (talk) 14:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks on DF

Thanks for the correction on DeFuniak Springs. I was thinking the two pictures under each other would make the text look wonky, but that wasn't the case, so goody. :) Anyway, appreciate the continued kind words. It's stuff like that which makes folks want to keep contributing. Cheers!  :) --Ebyabe (talk) 16:38, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Who John Is

Hey there, thanks for removing references here. I didn't realize that was the case until I happened to see your edit just now, I'll avoid using references in the future.

John is a local who lives in Roche Harbor and drives people to/from Seattle with the Island Airporter service. I'm not sure if that makes him authoritative at all. Feel free to remove if it doesn't meet standards. For the sake of my own understanding, what *would* make someone an authoritative source on where to get a good margarita on sleepy island? :) Does WikiVoyage allow for local tips/recommendations in any form?

Thanks again :)

--KrystleChung (talk) 21:10, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for writing, Krystle. Yes, local recommendations are absolutely appreciated, but they don't have to be cited. However, feel free to add a single phrase explaining who John is, if you'd like to keep the citation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:26, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks for the response! I made this edit, do you think this helps? --KrystleChung (talk) 05:07, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

The date of the assertion isn't needed; that's the kind of rigorous citation that's used in scholarly papers. I'll see what the current version is and edit a bit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll admit that when reading and editing the entry, I still had the feeling of "So? Why is the opinion of a bus driver who happens to be local any more authoritative than anyone else's opinion?" But I'll leave that for others to judge. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:21, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Lenovo

I was looking at the "Recent changes" and started to wonder something is missed. Offcourse edits of IK are missing. But when I came across your user-page, I started to laughing out loud becuase you always have one issue: Your computer issue. Well, Wikivoyage is seems incomplete to me without you, so I hope you'll be back soon and this time with a replaced computer. And yes, Lenovo suck! --Saqib (talk) 16:25, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, they're giving me an epic runaround. I'm typing this from my girlfriend's laptop, which has its own issues. I hope the problems are resolved soon. Thanks for the sympathy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:03, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Rankin Inlet

Hey there! just wanted to say thanks for fixing up my translation of Rankin Inlet. Nice to have someone picking up my mistakes haha. Hshook (talk) 10:22, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Glad to help, and thanks for adding all that great content! It would be great to have another Off the beaten path feature from Arctic Canada in due time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:25, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Bonifacio, etc

Apologies for the mess. I've got some list of POIs in Corsica, so I wanted to share it, but I need to be careful with "translations". -- Vadp (talk) 18:26, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

It's OK. It's good to get the content up. Corsica is an under-covered region on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:22, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

detout or delete

Agree should not allow touting but should we not just detout and not delete? Wondering about actions such as here. I only see one contribution from the user, we are too small a community to discourage new users. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Feel free to detout it if you like. I don't feel that single-hotel touters add much to this community, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:41, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Back off!

I̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶u̶n̶-̶d̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶e̶d̶i̶t̶s̶,̶ ̶p̶l̶e̶a̶s̶e̶.̶ —The preceding comment was added by DAZ14LPA (talk • contribs)

As near as I can tell, Ikan is simply making edits in accordance with our manual of style. Do you have a specific instance where he "undid" one of your edits recently? Powers ^(talk) 23:08, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I̶ ̶q̶u̶i̶t̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶i̶g̶n̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶n̶o̶w̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶'̶r̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶ ̶"̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶s̶e̶l̶f̶"̶;̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶f̶r̶a̶n̶k̶l̶y̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶e̶.̶DAZ14LPA (talk) 20:05, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Happy trails. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:46, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

I̶'̶m̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶p̶p̶y̶.̶ ̶D̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶g̶o̶ ̶p̶u̶l̶l̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶m̶e̶.̶ DAZ14LPA (talk) 22:10, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Forget everything I said. I owe a sincere apology; had I known you were an "alpha-dog" in the Wiki-communities, I would've stopped this whole thing before I started getting angry. If you want me off the website, and nominate me for banning, go ahead; I won't shed a tear, and I deserve it. One last thing to apologize for, I never meant to say that I quit, I was extremely frustrated that my edits were deleted that I blamed you; I was such an idiot, and once again, I'm sorry. If you don't take the apology, I'll be fine; I'm just glad to get it off my chest. DAZ14LPA (talk) 19:41, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

I am not "the alpha dog"; that's your misjudgment. I am simply one of a bunch of administrators who's a volunteer editor like you, and because I'm particularly active in the Wikivoyage:Recent changes patrol, I quickly noticed the great edits you were making and also the instances in which you were deviating from consensus procedures, and let you know about both. And the only problem I have with you is that you want to be an exception to any preexisting guidelines you don't want to follow, and then you quickly and increasingly became hostile, just because of completely normal edits that were explained to you, with links to policy pages. I'd rather that you neither be hostile nor self-deprecatory, and simply have normal interactions in which everyone is respecting consensus and working toward making this site better. If you can't do that, then yes, you should probably frequent another site such as your personal blog, which wouldn't require you to interact cooperatively with others, but I have never had a desire to throw you off the site and still don't, if you would just act cooperatively. And finally, there is really no need for us to talk to each other at all. Just make your edits, I'll make mine, and leave the drama off this site, because it has nothing to do with making the site better. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:28, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch for helping me set the record straight, IK. PS, I owe you. DAZ14LPA (talk) 20:36, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

No, I really don't think you owe me anything you don't owe any other user here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:39, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay, then. DAZ14LPA (talk) 22:23, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh, almost forgot to respond to the Uber thing you commented on: The Melbourne to Stuart thing on the Port St. Lucie page isn't necessarily relevant, but shows how far they are planning on expanding, and if you go from Stuart or Melbourne back to where you are in Port St. Lucie, this is where they plan to go. Sorry I forgot to talk about that. DAZ14LPA (talk) 23:42, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Editing guiding templates

Is there any template to put into section, so that it asks to be expanded? Soshial (talk) 16:57, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Please give me an example. Do you mean listing templates or templates like {subst:welcome}, which are used to welcome new posters? In what kinds of ways would you like to expand the templates in question? Some listings are too complex to fit well within a listing template and may work best as subsections of an article. Xi'an#Daqin Pagoda is one example of such a listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:28, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Something like this: w:en:Template:Expand_section. Soshial (talk) 19:25, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I understand. But is there any article in which it's not obvious that a section should be expanded? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:31, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

For example, almost the whole article is finished, but some sections needs a bit of expanding. Soshial (talk) 21:13, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

It might be a good idea. Have a look at Wikivoyage:Using MediaWiki templates#New MediaWiki template proposals. You'll be able to use the template initially in a single low-traffic article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:26, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Couldn't find exactly the one I was asking for :) May you point it out? Soshial (talk) 15:37, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

I thought you'd just import the template from Wikipedia. I am not knowledgeable about the technicalities of templates, so I probably wouldn't be able to give you more technical advice. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:17, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Warning to Newbys

Here's a summary of my experience on Wikivoyage. I found Wikivoyage a few weeks ago and thought what a good idea it was. I spent some time in the sandbox and reading various guidelines encouraging me to pitch in, and not to worry about getting things wrong, and telling me about the friendly and helpful community. I then thought about what I could add that would be useful to others, taking care to follow the relevant policies. Since there were a couple of tours that I went on last year that I could thoroughly recommend (because they provided lots of interesting information that was otherwise unavailable) I added them under Carcassonne and [Albi].

I checked back later to see if my edits had registered OK. There were no messages saying thank you for your effort. No message of welcome to the community. Nothing. Not even my edits. It took me some concerted effort to figure out that they had been deleted ("reverted") by Saqib. No explanation. No suggestions. No encouragement. Nothing. So I put the edits back and ask why they had been "reverted". In response they were once again reverted by Saqib. No explanation was given other than a link to Listings#Tour_listings, the policy on Tour listings. This was a bit puzzling because my edits obviously did comply with the policy - 100% as far as I could see. Anyone who knew the two places listed and who looked at what the details of the tours involved would have seen this immediately. On talk, I therefore asked this question "Saqib, Could you please explain why you are reverting my edits, even though they comply with the stated policy, as you will have known if you had followed the link included". But Saqib was clearly too important and too busy to provide a response.

Instead, a response came from Ryan. No welcome. No offer of help. He said that there were two "issues". The first was that "guided tours are generally only considered appropriate when the destination cannot be visited without a guide.". This of course is not true. What the policy says is that Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveller could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed. (my emboldening). As I kept pointing out, my edits complied fully with the stated policy at Listings#Tour_listings, (since they do constitute a value-added activity and a traveller could certainly not fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, even with all available audioguides, guidebooks, and everything else available). Ryan's second "issue", was that "the tours are being added as advertising for a tour operator, which is considered touting and is strongly discouraged...". I looked at touting and found that my edits did not count as "touting" under the policy. I was then, and am now, completely mystified how anyone could read either edit as advertising or touting.

I was so annoyed that I asked how to complain. My assumption was that Saqib and Ryan must be just kids messing about and that a responsible adult would be able to put them right. But no. There is apparently no complaints mechanism, so if a group of kids fail to understand a policy or get some wacky unwarranted idea into their heads, or take a dislike to you, or just decide to back each other up irrespective of the facts, then there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Of course, neither Saqib nor Ryan responded to my key point - that my edits were in line with stated policies. Instead of addressing the points made, Ikan Kekek now joined in and said this

"In any case, it looks to me like you may be ignoring this fundamental part of the tour policy Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveller could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed.

The idea of quoting back to me the fundamental part of the policy that I had myself relied on and emboldened was little short of malign genius. Ikan Kekek then added

"That means, if individual travellers can see these Cathar-related sights without hiring you [sic], you [sic] don't get to list your [sic] tours or your [sic] company. As it further states "In practice this policy disallows listing most[...]guided tours since the substance of such tours can generally be fulfilled by an independent traveller[.]".

I don't need to belabor this, but Ikan Kekek has gone to considerable lengths to ignore the "value added" criterion and the key fact that the substance of these tours cannot be fulfilled by an independent traveller - the whole point of the policy. He is now firmly convinced that I own a tour company. I find it difficult to believe that these are genuine errors.

Normally, if three out of three separate people suggest that I'm in the wrong, then I tend to suspect that they are right. But I have looked pretty carefully at this over the last few days, and there really is no question about it. I don't believe that Saqib, Ryan or Ikan Kekek have understood the policy (which is simple enough), or visited the places concerned, or even bothered to consider what might constitute value added in this case. I might have thought this was just wilful ignorance, except that all three have all gone out of their way to ignore or misconstrue every point I have made, and have then invented a pretty zany excuse to justify their mistake - my "obvious anger" proves that they are right!

So Saqib, Ryan and Ikan Kekek, I have no idea how your minds are working or why you you might want to behave like this. Frankly, I find your behaviour baffling. I'm sure you'll be delighted to learn that I will not be troubling you or Wikivoyage ever again with eccentric ideas about basic courtesy, listing attractions, adding value, complying with policy, or with my "obvious anger" or indeed with anything else.

ErnieNode (talk) 17:31, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Please explain how this tour represents "value added" under the tour policy. Merely asserting that it does doesn't convince anyone. We want more editors, but there's another factor, which is that we've had quite a lot of experience with people coming to this site to spam or advertise. There are ways to productively work with us. Whether you choose to do so or not is up to you. I can't address your criticism of other admins on this site, but I can certainly say that I have no "malign" intent. As far as I'm concerned, the ball is in your court.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:10, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Thanks Prof tpms (talk) 09:42, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, that's very kind. And thank you for adding content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:31, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Congrats, IK! You deserve it. DAZ14LPA (talk) 00:01, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Prof tpms (talk) 09:43, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, but it's really not necessary. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:55, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Excessive usage of Wikilove is not good! --Saqib (talk) 10:54, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, what I'd much rather have is a discussion on User:Prof tpms' user talk page. I appreciate that the professor is obviously reading his/her user talk page, but the discussion has been quite one-sided so far. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:58, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Am I doing something wrong?

IK, am I doing something wrong in regards to editing? I see you put me on the vandalism page, and even thinking of banning me, and I would like clarification on what is happening. I just apologized to you, and I tried to clear up confusion on that page; can you help me understand what exactly is going on? Like I said, I never meant to say that I quit; I was just frustrated especially since this was my first time on a big website. But, just answer this: am I doing something wrong? Let me know as soon as you can. DAZ14LPA (talk) 20:40, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

DAZ14LPA: I don't think IK has nominated you for banning. That was another guy so relax and enjoy crafting your userpage as you usually do. --Saqib (talk) 20:55, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Sorry for putting undeserved words in his mouth. DAZ14LPA (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, nothing to worry about now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:53, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing up the confusion, IK. See you around when I mess up, he he...just kidding. DAZ14LPA (talk) 21:33, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Port St. Lucie

IK, I need your help with the Port St. Lucie page. As you know, I've added lots of information to the Port St. Lucie page, and I need your opinion on whether it is an outline or a "usable" article. If there is anything needing to be improved on, let me know as soon as you can, please. DAZ14LPA (talk) 11:54, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Have a look at this: Wikivoyage:City guide status

Port St. Lucie is clearly an Usable article. Possibly even Guide. ϒpsilon (talk) 12:53, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch. I'll go update it, if not already. DAZ14LPA (talk) 13:14, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry to bug you again about the PSL article, but should more topics be added? Basically, should I add "Cope", "Connect" and add information under "stay Safe"? Let me know as soon as you can. Thank you.

Cheers! DAZ14LPA (talk) 22:22, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Have to ask, but have you set up a voting system on Wikivoyage? I'm asking because I thought of some idea to finally get a banner on the PSL page because I have no pictures of the city without violating copyright. If so, can you give me some tips? Thank you. Donny (talk) 19:10, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Voting is not something we do very often here on WV. Especially not for "small" things such as pagebanners for individual articles (we do sort of vote for destination of the month banners for the main page but that's an entirely different thing). Banners are added to articles on a first come, first served basis. If there's an absolutely terrifying banner on some article, people can start the discussion on the article's talk page and come up with suggestions for a better one.

Concerning Port St. Lucie, if you have some photos of the city yourself, why not make a banner of one of those? Making a banner is not very hard. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:09, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't have any pictures. It's not like I can flag a cab or I have a bus stop near me. Any picture I get is taken down due to the stupid "copyright laws". I know how to make a banner, but it doesn't work on this old computer I have. Getting a picture in a good area is very difficult. Any picture I attempt to take gets blocked by traffic or my camera dies when the elements are perfect. You understand my dilemma, right? Donny (talk) 23:31, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

We do sometimes discuss which of several proposed banners is better, but if there is no custom pagebanner on a given page, it's preferable to post something even if discussion is ongoing between two or more alternatives. My suggestion to you would be to look for good pictures on Wikimedia Commons that you could turn into banners. If there are none, you may be able to copy a free-to-use photo from a site like Flickr. There's some information on Wikivoyage:Banner Expedition, especially the first section of Wikivoyage:Banner Expedition#How to make a quality banner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:56, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll do my best. Donny (talk) 15:15, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Uh, no pictures were taken in a quote-on-quote "good" spot; not trying to say Flickr sucks as a website, but no one really bothered to take a picture of the well-known areas. BTW, thanks for helping out with the PSL article and giving tips about certain sections, which will come in handy. See you around, -Donny (talk) 19:21, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Sure thing. I wouldn't be offended if you said Flickr sucks, but I'm sorry if it does in this case. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:34, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Airport taxis unhappy for short distance

Legal taxi aiport in Soekarno Hatta International Airport should queue about 3 hours to get passengers, so the drivers want long distance passengers, and unhappy for short distance. And who queue for passangers cannot refuse passangers for short distance, so frequently the taxi driver says with unhappy to the passengers that he has waited for 3 hours and get only short distance passengers, alternatively some short distance passengers choose illegal taxis who don't need to queue, certainly with haggle.Gsarwa (talk) 17:24, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I get your point now, but I didn't when you posted it. But I'm not sure it's really that important to explain in detail to readers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

It's OK. Not everyone want to know about the system.Gsarwa (talk) 05:01, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry

to cause you extra work with "signing" my contributions on talk pages! (Sometimes it's forgetfulness and sometimes it's diabolically slow INMARSAT connections that lose cache information. 148.122.187.2 12:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

It's OK. I occasionally forget to sign my own posts, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:40, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Thanks for helping this new user with my post about Dufur, Oregon, USA. I appreciate your input and comments. JosiahEDean (talk) 18:16, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

United States of America#Cities

Hey, IK. I'm responding about your question about my trivia about New York being the most powerful city in the world. I was alluding to Wall Street, in fact, but it is also a major city in the fashion world, as well as one of the most visited cities in the world. If you wanted that information instead of "most powerful", I'm glad to have cleared up the confusion. Thanks a bunch. Donny (talk) 23:38, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense. Add a few specifics to the description if you like, as long as it doesn't exceed a single sentence without period. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:26, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks, IK. Donny (talk) 09:40, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Your attitude

You have a very long history of high-handed, patronising and borderline aggressive behaviour to other editors. Please remember that Wikivoyage does not belong to you, and your behaviour is contributing to driving away editors. —The preceding comment was added by 176.10.250.16 (talk • contribs)

What is your basis for this vague claim? Powers ^(talk) 15:14, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, a specific complaint would be more useful than a completely out-of-context remark by an IP with very few posts and no user talk file that might be able to help provide some kind of context. Most of the people who've complained about me have been touters or users who believe they should be able to individually disregard Wikivoyage policies at will and resent moderation in general, while many other people have thanked me for giving them helpful pointers. If you have a specific complaint, you're more likely to get that resolved by addressing me with it specifically than by acting like you represent a class of aggrieved people, instead of simply and authentically representing yourself. Thanks, and have a good day. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:29, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Novgorad

• I went ahead and alpha-ordered the Novgorad sections and made see/do listings with a little bit of text for a couple of them Matroc (talk) 21:26, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. Of course, there are still many naked names, so I hope User:50.195.72.217 or someone else who knows anything about these places comes back to turn them into real listings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:04, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

My trip to Munich

Thank you for your answers to my questions about what to do in Munich way back in January. I went to the BMW Welt and BMW Museum and had a great time there even though I'm not a car enthusiast (I don't even have a driving licence). I also went to Augustiner-Keller on Arnulfstraße to eat and drink beer. The whole experience was great. Munich restaurants sure know how to make great sausages. The next day, I went to Bratwurst Glöckl for lunch. This time I drank Spezi instead of beer because it was so early in the day. But the sausages tasted great there too. My main program took so long that other than that, I only had time to shortly visit a small part of the Englischer Garten and the Haus der Kunst. In the Haus der Kunst I almost got trapped because I wanted to see what the Kinder- und Jugendprogramm was like, only to find it was closed, beyond locked doors. The door I had come in through seemed also to have locked itself, but with enough force, I managed to push it open and go back where I came from. I have no idea what I would have done if I had actually become trapped. JIP (talk) 19:03, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Wow! That was a little too exciting! I'm glad you had a good time. I love that Augustiner-Keller! Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Answer

Thanks. I didn't know! Best regards. :)--Asqueladd (talk) 15:11, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

That's why I told you. :-) Have a good day.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:24, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Wikivoyage, Central Dhaka, Page Banner

I think my page bannercovered the entire length of the page, do have a lokk again. --Rangan Datta Wiki (talk) 07:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

It didn't before, at least on my laptop. Now it does. Thanks a lot for your valuable edits!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:22, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Magnificent Morocco

	Magnificent Morocco
	Hi, Can you tell me why my listing was removed and what i can do to get my listing onto this page? I see that I Go Morocco is still on the page and their business is no different to ours? Magnificent Morocco (talk) 09:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Which page, please? The answer is likely to relate to this site's policies on tour listings, promotional language or external links, but I don't recall which of these applied. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I posted on the https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Marrakech#Learn page, my listing is no different to the one above it, and it keeps getting refused for various different reasons, the latest one was the website address, however if you look at the listing that is already there, their website is for their tour company. Please can you tell me how I can get properly on wiki? I also want to place a banner somewhere too. We are a genuine business and I want to do things right. —The preceding comment was added by Magnificent Morocco (talk • contribs)

I posted to your user talk page, and you should read that post and stop edit warring, please. This site does not allow listings for tours that an independent traveller could do on their own without too much trouble, but does, for example, allow desert camel safari operators - but not mere ticket brokers - to list in the article for the place where their physical office is located. General tour companies simply are not allowed to list on this site, but if you do fall within the exception rules to this site's tour policy, you still cannot use promotional language, or your listing will again be reverted. At this point, I think it's important for you to post an explanation of why your company should be allowed a listing under Wikivoyage's policies in the talk page for the article where you want to list - and note that you cannot list on more than one page, at most. You need to read the relevant policy pages carefully before you do anything else on this site. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

As for why the tour company in the "Learn" section has a listing, it's because it looks like it offers Arabic courses, but I see at their link that this is false, and their listing belongs in "Do" and should focus on their desert tours, which are considered "value added" under this site's tour policy - which, again, you need to read. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Response from Sarr Cat

Your very welcome! I enjoy contributing across many wikis, plus openstreetmap, this is my first day on here. Glad My edits are appreciated! (I don't know if the same talkback templates from Wikipedia work on here, so I just decided to respond here!) Sarr Cat (talk) 01:07, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

The Talkback templates work, but a direct response is less trouble. :-)

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:16, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

WELL THEN...

If they work, why didintchya use one??

Heheheh! :P

Sarr Cat (talk) 01:24, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Eh, I don't like them. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:37, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Plovdiv

On June 10th and 11th 2015 I, TheCribHostel, added myself to the list of budget places to sleep in the city of Plovdiv on the page titled "Plovdiv." Both times I erased the section on a "competitor" named 'Hostel Mostel.' After being unable to respond to your warning and threat against this, Im writing here to tell you that Hostel Mostel no longer exists in Plovdiv but only works out of Sofia and Veliko Tarnovo. I therefore thought it positive to rid the city's article of obsolete information.

Please consider my words, check the validity of my statement if you like, and allow me to make this contribution to my city's page here on WikiVoyage.

Thank you, TheCribHostel —The preceding comment was added by TheCribHostel (talk • contribs)

Whenever you make an edit on this site, there is a long, horizontal rectangular window just below your edit screen that says "Summary:". When you make an edit that deserves any kind of explanation, always type something as an edit summary, so that you don't run into this kind of problem. It's really not up to volunteer users to spend time finding out non-obvious things like this. So go ahead and reinstate your edit, but make sure you type a brief explanation in your edit summary. You may include "Also see discussion at User talk:Ikan Kekek". Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:51, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Attitude problem

Ref: (diff | hist) . . Ouagadougou‎; 00:50 . . (-75)‎ . . ‎Ikan Kekek (talk | contribs)‎ (→‎Get around: I'm not sure how the poverty of the country is related to good driving.) Thank you for the above advice. Even though I don't suffer from any attitude issues, a small negligence can make the people of some countries feel that they are not honorably treated. I understand the importance of such care and niceties. Prof tpms (talk) 02:44, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't really get it. My feeling was that you were implying that it was to be expected that a poor country would have bad drivers, and therefore, that it was to be complimented that in a poor country, they surprisingly drive well. That seemed like a backhanded compliment to me, so I thought it was best to simply say that they are bad drivers and not mention the poverty of the country in connection with that. Maybe that was only my reaction, but I don't really understand your point yet. When you're talking about small negligences, are you referring to the people of Ouagadougou, and/or are you making a complaint about me?

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:11, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, what I meant was that a small negligence from my part should not hurt the sentiments of the Ouagadougou‎ people. I was trying to clarify that your point of view is broader. Prof tpms (talk) 07:22, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I see.

I feel like Mark Twain speaking about how America and England (or in this case, India) are divided by a common language. :-)

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:27, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, a lot of confusion can come even though we learn branded British English in our colleges. The thing is that all Indians are strongly influenced by the structures of the Indian languages which are entirely different. Prof tpms (talk) 14:24, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Bus booking agent links

It's against the rules to list Gotobus as a booking agent here as it clearly states that third parties should not be listed. Also it kind of sad that we are linking to a tool for finding bus companies that are often shutdown and operate in violation of the FMCSA and the DOT. Sounds like a great experience waiting to happen for a first time US visitor =/ —The preceding comment was added by 75.104.65.27 (talk • contribs)

That would be a reason to de-list Gotobus, not to list another booking agent for Amtrak and regular bus services, which can be easily booked on websites of Amtrak, Greyhound, et al. Make your argument at Talk:United States of America, please. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:43, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Gedong Sate

When I was a kid, I frequently played around Gedong Sate and there were no fence before, so I know exactly which part of the building image is taken. To take image of front of Gedong sate, nowadays is rather difficult due to fences and heavy traffic of Diponegoro street.Gsarwa (talk) 15:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Right. That wasn't my point. "The behind" makna punggungnya! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Gautrain

Hi abang nama saya Bobby dari Afrika selatan dan saya ingin tahu kenapa km revert edit saya tentang Gautrain. You see, I wanted to write in detail about Gautrain since I use it everyday to and from work, and I also think it would have been great for me as a person who lives and work in Johannesburg to make this contribution since I have experience about this, you can answer in either bahasa or English I stayed in Indonesia for yearsBobbyshabangu (talk) 14:51, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

We usually have no articles on individual rail lines or streets, unless they are destinations for travel all by themselves. We also discourage articles about individual even state owned and de facto monopolist companies. We do however have travel topics along the lines of rail travel in Germany or Rail travel in South Africa. You can very wall handle the Gautrain as part of such an article or as a paragraph in the get in and get around sections of the city/cities and/or region(s) it serves... Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:37, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Hobbitschuster covered it above (thanks, Hobbitschuster). Unless there's something truly unusual about the Gautrain that would make it an amazing experience in itself, it's unlikely an article about it would pass this site's What is an article? test. Here in New York, we have a commuter rail called Metro-North. Its Hudson Line has beautiful views, yet we have no separate article on it, and that seems right to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:16, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Chisinau Eat undo

Hi Ikan,

I see you undid an edit I made to the Chininau page, and am a little unsure why.

I was trying to change the address of an eaterie from 120 of a particular street to 130. I actually went to the place about 10 days ago, and originally I couldn't find it due to the incorrect address ... although I later found it by accident the next day!

I don't mean this message in a hostile way, if I've done something wrong I'd like to know why so as to avoid mistakes in the future. Thanks.

FTMDave (talk)

Hi, Dave. The reason I reverted your edit is noted in my editing summary: "Don't delete unused fields in templates." When these unused fields (e.g., "phone") are deleted, that causes confusion for other editors who may later want to fill them. However, I see the address change you mentioned. I'll change the address back from 120 to 130.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:13, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Ikan,

thanks for the clarification. I think I must have deleted "120" and then pressed the delete button some extra times without meaning to and accidentallly deleted a field! I certainly didn't intend to.

Live and learn and all that, I'll watch out in the future!

All the best to you too,

FTMDave (talk)

Thanks for understanding and for contributing! Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:27, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

That one IP User...

I see that you have come into contact with a certain IP User, whose edits while not overtly malicious do seem to be controversial. In addition to contacting him on his talk page (I don't think he reads edit summaries), what should we do? After all creating an article of a city as a "continet article" does not seem to be an innocent mistake... Or am I seeing ghosts? Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:13, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't know. Eventually, it's possible to block the user in question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:14, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Another potentially problematic user

While I assume good faith, the recent edits of User:Gol929 appear problematic to me. Could you please have a look, as well as at talk:Mongo, I fear I don't currently have the patience to deal with her/him... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:24, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Why are you people trying to boot me from this site i love to travel. --Gol929 (talk) 13:25, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

This is not my intention at all, but it seems you are doing that yourself, with what you recently said at my talk page. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:29, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry iam just frustrated. --Gol929 (talk) 13:30, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

I was busy enjoying Pasadena today. It looks like Ryan took care of the situation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:31, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I hope you had fun. Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:28, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I did, thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:34, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

An award for you!

The Wikivoyage Barncompass

Hullo~ I am new to wikivoyage and I don't know how the talk thing works.. I was in Changchun for 2 days at the end of last month, and yes there are a lot pine trees around~ They are also building the metro and constructions here and there. I am native Chinese thus I don't have experience of local's English. But Chinese overall speak better English now than 10 years ago~ I didn't see many western tourists during my stay, and the ones I saw I believe they were Russian. Changchun is not a tourist city like Shanghai or Beijing, and yes people there are less pushy~ cheers~ Iyoo (talk) 06:44, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, you're doing fine. You can just post on a talk page like on any other; no need to use a barncompass unless you really mean to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:47, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Westmill

Thank you for putting this article in the proper place. I had not created a town or village article for some time and got rusty at it. I plan in the next few days to flesh this article out. I once lived in London Colney, another Hertfordshire village. I will create and flesh out this article, as well. A friend of ours lives near Westmill and several times while we were in Hertfordshire on holiday (we live in Florida), we were driven through the village. It's a scenic place that deserves to see people who like to find things off the beaten path. Wpollard (talk) 12:40, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for starting the article! This site depends on people like you to create the content.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:48, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Beijing/Dongcheng sleep listing

Hi Ikan,

a couple of times recently you've edited what I've written, including today, always in a courteous and informative way.

I'll try and learn from your advice, as I value Wikivoyage when I travel myself and try to return the good work when I'm on holiday/vacation.

Thanks again for explaining where I'd gone wrong - I'll learn for the future!

All the best,

FTMDave (talk)

Thanks for helping out, and for having a great attitude!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:33, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Editing Pigeon Forge Listings

Hello,

I noticed that you removed the listing for cabin rentals added to Pigeon Forge. I did not add a description this time to avoid "touting." Are there other guidelines I am missing? Or a previous decision about this page that I am unaware of? "CabinsUSA (talk) 14:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)"

Not adding a description is not good. The way to avoid touting, as it's defined on this site, is to give objective descriptions only, without slogans ("for a unique vacation experience") or 1st-person language ("we offer"). If you haven't read the guidelines at Wikivoyage:Don't tout, you should, because it will answer most of your questions. Also have a look at welcome, business owners. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:06, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for directing me to these resources. I will edit the listing to make it more compliant with the standards. ("CabinsUSA (talk) 15:15, 24 August 2015 (UTC)")

Good. And thanks for putting in the effort. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:16, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Dots below horizontal ToC

Is the row of dots that has appeared today below the ToC headings in the banner in preparation for a new feature - or is the CSS temporarily screwed? BushelCandle (talk) 19:13, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Now fixed by User:Wrh2. BushelCandle (talk) 19:45, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

WARNING for beirut Article

Do you know that tourists even afraid when a child whizz!--Sonia Sevilla (talk) 09:12, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

you have the right of editing on articles of places you have visited.--Sonia Sevilla (talk) 09:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I have the right to edit any article, as do you. If you have information suggesting that the U.S. State Department warning is excessive, please go ahead and share it, but our practice is that when there are governments that have warnings, we share them and let travelers make up their own minds, so I think it would be improper to take out that warning entirely. Instead, it would probably be a good idea to check websites of other governments that issue travel advisories, such as Canada, France, Australia, the UK, New Zealand, and India and add links to their advisories, if any. However, all of this can be discussed on Talk:Beirut. Give your opinion, but be respectful of other Wikivoyagers, as that's the way you're most likely to convince them that your argument is in good faith and persuasive.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:37, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Delete my user page, please!

I agree entirely with your edit summary of "It's inappropriate to edit other people's user pages, because those are solely for a user to introduce him-/herself. Instead, edit their user talk pages - those are for communicating with them." and I suspect that this may well have been User:Rakibhasan786 trying to be helpful and posting in the wrong place after forgetting to log in.

However, I would prefer that you delete my user page entirely (until such time as I choose to create it) because then it will at least be "protected" by the standard warning that it should only be created by me.

Sorry if this causes you work, Ikan! BushelCandle (talk) 12:26, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

No problem; happy to help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:54, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Ikan! BushelCandle (talk) 12:56, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:56, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

"thumbp"

Sorry about mangling the image syntax - I was editing while on a train and my thumbs were just too big for the tiny touch screen! BushelCandle (talk) 09:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

No problem! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for being so understanding and for keeping an eye on things. BushelCandle (talk) 16:28, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

regarding your question

In the edit summary at [33]: if you ask it on talk, I'll show it to my students (who are going to expand this article) and ask them to answer. Cheers, --Piotrus (talk) 05:49, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Excellent. Thanks, Piotrus. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Would you mind helping to break a logjam...

...here?

--AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I made a comment, but I'm throwing it back to you guys to try to work out a compromise, as I think both of you have good points. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:58, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Question

In which article could I add this beautiful panorama as a banner? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 14:02, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Good evening. I'm not Ikan, but if the camera location parameter in the photo's description is correct, the geographically closest article we have would be Dead Horse Point State Park ϒpsilon (talk) 14:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Done. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 23:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:31, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok(Ansan edit)

I admit my mistake. By the way, I don't completely understand what you're talking about. As I am not good at English, I feel so sorry! —The preceding comment was added by Gong Ju-young (talk • contribs)

I appreciate the note. Don't feel too bad; there are quite a few users here who don't have advanced English knowledge. Please ask me any question I might be able to help you with. (By the way, on "talk/discussion" pages like this one, please sign each post at the end by typing ~~~~.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:58, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Travellers'_pub#We_have_some_Korean_guests_on_board :) ϒpsilon (talk) 12:12, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, ϒpsilon. I'm well aware of the project and indeed welcome all the participants and look forward to working with them more. Thanks for posting that great note in the Pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:15, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Welcome msg

Thank you for welcoming me. Nobody did that on Wikipedia (where I'm currently on wikibreak). Eat me, I'm a red bean (talk) 23:59, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome! I hope you enjoy it here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:54, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Cotton Club

Ikan, might I prevail upon you to restore the listing of the Cotton Club to the Manhattan/Harlem and Upper Manhattan article? While I understand it's south of the nominal dividing line, it seems perverse to so strictly follow our somewhat arbitrary district boundaries at the expense of including the establishment within its proper historical and geographic context. At the very least, the Jazz section of the Harlem article needs to mention the Cotton Club, even if it links to a different article, don't you think? Powers ^(talk) 19:26, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I like your second solution better. Mention it. But if you feel really strongly that it best serves the traveler to make an exception for the Cotton Club, I won't fight you on that, even though I grew up in the West 90s and always considered 125th St. the dividing line between the Upper West Side and Harlem, that far west. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:45, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

You know the area better than I, but this seems like an obvious case for an exception, given the proximity (we're talking mere feet from the boundary, aren't we?) and clear cultural connection with the other Harlem jazz venues. Powers ^(talk) 18:08, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Are you not satisfied with this edit? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:41, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I would still prefer to see the listing restored, but if you feel strongly about maintaining the centerline of 125th street as an inviolable boundary, I could live with it. Powers ^(talk) 01:29, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

I just took a look at the district maps, and neither one includes the little triangle where Dinosaur BBQ and the Cotton Club are located. (The main Manhattan map does show the triangle as part of the Upper West Side.) I'd thought both were considered part of Harlem, though. Powers ^(talk) 01:33, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

They are not, according to loads of maps I've seen going back quite a long ways, as well as the general opinion of people in my neighborhood when I was growing up. What do you believe the dividing line is? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:04, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

If you feel strongly about making both sides of 125th St. be in Harlem, go ahead, though that is not the traditional dividing line, going back a long ways. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:44, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea where the dividing line is. I just know that when Dinosaur was opened it was publicized as being in Harlem, and that the Cotton Club is strongly associated with Harlem. And just to be clear, I'm not talking about both sides of 125th street all the way to Central Park; just the little piece north of St. Clair. Powers ^(talk) 23:43, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I think the simplest thing to do, if you want these places listed in Harlem, is to make both sides of 125th St. part of Harlem. I don't think it's historically accurate, but no-one will really care that much and it's not like there's any drastic difference between the two sides of the street. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:52, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, with due respect, it does sound like you care at least a fair bit, and unlike me, you've actually been to the area. I respect your opinion a lot, and I don't want to make changes to the region boundaries that aren't warranted. But at the same time, I think it's important to put establishments in the article where people are most likely to look for them. Powers ^(talk) 18:28, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

The Upper West Side is the neighborhood where I grew up. I lived there for decades and maintained a connection with it for as long as my parents lived. So yeah, I've been to the area, alright. But I'm saying that despite the strong opinions of Upper West Side natives like me, a single side of a street doesn't really matter much. If you'd like to respect my points, the solution is to mention the places on the south side of 125th St. in the Harlem article and refer readers to Manhattan/Upper West Side. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:42, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps we should get additional input. Which talk page would you suggest? Talk:Manhattan? Powers ^(talk) 19:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

That would be the best one. Feel free to point to this discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:35, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Yongin edits

Thank you for your comments. I corrected my edits like your advice. However I will fill the addresses, phone numbers, URLs section. Please give me more time. Ji-soo Seo (talk) 09:49, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Certainly. Take your time, and thank you.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:54, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Iquitos article.

Hola Ikan, I've updated the article of my city, Iquitos in the Spanish Wikivoyage. I wish your help to get the status of Star Article. May you help me? https://es.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Iquitos --EdwinJs (talk) 21:08, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

My Spanish is not so good and I've never visited Iquitos, so I'm not sure I could help you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:23, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

A Barncompass for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Thank you for your tireless contributions. --Rubbish computer (talk) 00:00, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Happy to help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:08, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Jensen Beach

IK, I hope I don't come off on you as pretentious, but I do understand your edits on Jensen Beach, and I would just like to clarify some info with you. First, Jensen Beach is a Census-Designated Place (CDP) in Florida, and the US Census counts the population of this place every 10 years, and is not included in the yearly estimates, so it's population is, technically, current until the next census. Second, I wasn't sure whether to have used ALL CAPS on the Caution; I thought it would've gotten the point across, but if it's not "recommended", then so be it. Thanks for taking time to help with these articles, and letting me know what to improve on. Donny (talk) 20:01, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Donny. No, none of this comes across as pretentious, and I considered my edits minor, anyway. :-)

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, man. Donny (talk) 23:50, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Sure thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:27, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Paris postcodes

Hi Ikan. I was thinking, wouldn't it in fact be better to include the postcode in all Paris addresses? I know there are only 20 in the whole city, but they are needed for postage and they quickly tell a traveller on the ground which arrondissement they should head to (I'm sure you know this, but just in case you don't "75012" means "Paris, 12th Arrondissement". So, hence my partial revert of your edit. Merci, et bon dimanche --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:12, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, you're actually right. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:27, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Ikan. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:16, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

About User:Illinoisboy18

Greetings Ikan Kekek!

Thought I'd like to tell you that Illinoisboy18 (who made this administrator request here) is currently blocked indefinite on Wikibooks for this confession, who has also wrote the same message on Wikiversity, after requesting to be a sysop on Wikiversity. Just thought I'd tell you about this.

Thank you --Atcovi (talk) 23:01, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate the notice. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:06, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Nuremberg Zum Guldenen Stern

Just to point out. It is temporarily closed (since the summer), due to reopen 1st November. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:49, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, in that case, my deletion should be reverted, with a note about the temporary closure and scheduled reopening. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:51, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I took care of it. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:53, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Wishes and thoughts about WV

Hi. How are you? Roland is going to meet a guy from the community team of the WMF tomorrow or the day after to talk about the future of WV and checking out opportunities to support WV in a better way. Its short term planned, because the guy will happen to be in Berlin these days. Does the English community have some ideas/wishes (e.g. map/mobile/offline features)? -- DerFussi 09:40, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm good. I'm not sure offhand. Perhaps if you post to the Pub, some other folks may have ideas. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:58, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Done... Thanks. -- DerFussi 11:44, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

How're you ?Long time no see?Yan Linn Naung (talk) 04:54, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Just fine, and I've been active on this site. Anything on your mind, or did you just want to give me a friendly hello? :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:13, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Protracted break

Sheesh, a range of issues, but now back, will be in earnest returning to try to make head or tail of australian articles and things, trust all is well.

Should be in earnest, editing in the next day or so. sats (talk) 01:29, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm doing fine, and it's great to hear from you. I hope everything is OK. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:44, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

The level of enlgish tense issues in indonesian article should be enough to keep the fervour for a good duration JarrahTree (talk) 08:07, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad, because I just cannot handle all the edits by myself and it's mostly been me, while you and User:Othello95 have been experiencing that mysterious thing called "real life". :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:09, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

sheesh the Indonesian material is monumentally bizarre - the Go Next in most developed indonesian articles is touting with a grab bag style and no sense of direction or even cartographically verifiable next system

surakarta is weird... the insistence that something is best got to by car is a bit overdone in lots of the arts as well.

more than chipping away, wow this is something bigger than merapi and merbabu on a hot day, I'll need a big drink after reading some of the contradictions in some articles :( JarrahTree (talk) 23:24, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

If this were Facebook, I'd "like" your post. Are Templeton rye, Woodford Reserve bourbon or Blackwell's rum available in your neck of the woods? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:04, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I suspect I am too poor for all of them, I got hung up on Iced Wine in Niagara Falls country 6 years ago, havent really moved on from that since I am so broke...JarrahTree (talk) 08:50, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I haven't checked ice wine prices lately, but I suspect none of those are nearly as high-end as ice wine. For example, you can easily get a bottle of Templeton in New York for under $40. Actually, I think all three of those cost less than $40 a bottle. Another excellent rum in the same price category is Zacapa, from Guatemala. And of course a bottle of liquor goes a lot further than a bottle of wine, except for people who are alcoholics or otherwise really hard-core drinkers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:43, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Liu'ao

I wrote that offline on my laptop (on a train, actually). Will format it soon. -- Vmenkov (talk) 05:52, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Excellent. Very diligent of you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

user pages

If you had chosen to have investigated or to have had a conversation, I could have told you that this person had added the same or similar spam-like action xwiki, and that I had addressed this with the user at one of the wikis. Within WMF it has not been the approach to encourage advertising or components outside of the scope of the site, is that different at WikiVoyage and you encourage the addition of irrelevant promotion?

Where a user wishes to have a generic type user page, then they can follow the guidance and put one at meta, and have it transclude across the wikis, and then not pollute search engines with promotion. Billinghurst (talk) 23:04, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

If you had chosen to type an explanation in your edit summary, we wouldn't have had to have a conversation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I'll delete the page. Next time, you can use Template:Delete.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:57, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

USA

It was kind of already divided by regions, and yeah, i think the word "but" before listing a bunch of cool shit has the intended meaning of being negative. I'd also like to note that California's is pretty lengthy too. It will be reworded at some point. It makes Florida sound retarded. -Mathew105601 (talk) 01:05, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

It's OK for you to reword, but please keep it to a single sentence w/o period. I don't agree on "but", though. You'd prefer "and"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:07, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Alright keeper of the US page, I'll have to go back to the drawing board. You threw a wrench in my original plan. "and" isn't going to fix it. You don't have to believe me, but the way it is currently worded implies that North Florida is part of the South and lacks sandy beaches and the finer things of Florida, which certainly isn't the case. My idea was to fashion a few sentences to try and capture a unbiased fact based description of the state, which is pretty culturally diverse. Mathew105601 (talk) 01:16, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not the keeper of the page. I gave you the policy reference. Had I not reverted your edits, someone else would have done so very quickly. Anyway, I don't have to agree with your point of view for you to edit the 1-liner listing. Go ahead. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:22, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Like every description on the USA page has more than a sentence. So I really disagree with you. What the hell Mathew105601 (talk) 01:25, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I see that some of them have 2 sentences, but your edit was just too long and complicated, more appropriate to the Florida guide. Anyway, if you really disagree strongly with me, the best place for you to argue is Talk:United States of America, because I (or you, or anyone else) can revert edits unilaterally, but I cannot approve edits unilaterally, as anyone else could revert them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:30, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

No, I will reword it. I can see how it was a mouthful. I've been a member for years and recently I've been blocked on a few things. It just got me frustrated. I'm going to see if I can boil my points down to a more reasonable size. Sorry for being an asshole. Mathew105601 (talk) 01:36, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

That message got a chuckle out of me. No, you weren't and aren't an asshole, just passionate about your state, which is great! See what you can do to improve the listing, with my blessing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:59, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Its not perfect, but eh? "Much more dynamic than its 1,200 miles of sandy beaches, Florida is culturally rich offering a diverse range of destinations and visitor attractions, including major resorts in Central Florida, Caribbean-influenced South Florida, and Southern-influenced North Florida." Mathew105601 (talk) 04:16, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

It seems to me to be less specific than the current text, as it no longer mentions the Everglades, the resorts of Orlando (Central Florida is less specific), or retirement communities. It strikes me as a little bland. We need a balance between the necessity of generalization in this context and not saying things that are so general they don't really give the reader much of an impression. You might seek other people's feedback at Talk:United States of America, as there are others who know Florida way better than I do, and perhaps as well as you do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:40, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for offering tips

Have a nice weekend. Litbott(talk)

You too.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:54, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Thank you for helping my article, Daebudo. Your contribution is really helpful to me! Thank you. Misokkkim (talk) 02:45, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Sure thing. That article is coming along nicely. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:30, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Yan Linn Naung

Hi, Ikan Kekek, How's your days? Yan Linn Naung (talk) 08:53, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

OK, a little sad about all the murders around the world. And you? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Orlando page

Thank you for the update. I will refrain from adding city names if a site is within the city page. I will use Asian instead of Oriental. I live in a very multicultural area and some Asian businesses use Oriental in their names and many Asians use the term freely. As you surely know, usage of English words can vary considerably from area to area. I lived in England and found a few words or terms used in the US and UK that cannot be used in the other country, as they are taken as insults. Actually, I am gathering British terms and plan to write about what they mean, as Americans can be totally lost when some terms are presented to them. Anyway, I am committed to writing information in Wikivoyage and Wikipedia that is completely correct and unbiased. Wpollard (talk) 02:07, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I do know these things, and thanks for your reply. Of course it's absolutely OK to use "Oriental" when it's part of a store's name.

Also, we have an English language varieties article that you'll want to look at.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:33, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Judaism Article

Hi there, I just wanted to ask you for your opinion on something as a Jew, since I do not want to make any edits that would seem disrespectful to your religion. For the Judaism article, how much do you think is acceptable as far as mentioning the difference between archaeological findings and the biblical account go? I have been reading quite a number of articles about biblical archaeology, and many of the findings seem to contradict the biblical account. For instance, the bible describes David as a great king who ruled over a united Jewish kingdom of Israel and Judah, but according to what I've been reading about the archaeological findings, Jerusalem was only a village at the time King David was supposed to have ruled, so based on that, he would only have been a village chief. I understand that this is a very sensitive issue, and from a religious point of view, the biblical account is something that you should believe without question. So I would just like some advice on how I could approach this subject in the article but at the same time be sensitive to your religious beliefs. The dog2 (talk) 03:24, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm a secular Jew, but I think the proper thing is to present the beliefs and the science. Don't hold back. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:38, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

I think our current articles on the monotheistic religions reflect a bit on the apparent composition of our most prolific editors (i.e. them being mostly secular / moderately religious). However, it may well be that at some point some person might complain about us "badmouthing" a certain religion by showing how the modern science disagrees with the "holy books"... Anyway as for secular Jews, I've once heard the joke of two Rabbis (it can also have been a Rabbi and a member of the congregation) discussing for hours whether god exists... After a long time they agree that (s)he/they doesn't. But by now they've become hungry and grab a bite. So one of them speaks the customary blessing before beginning to eat and the other replies "Wait why are you speaking the blessing? I thought we agree there's no god...?" Says the first one: "Well god, no god, you just can't eat without speaking the blessing". I found that hilarious and though I don't know many Jews personally, I am tempted to say that there is a kernel of truth to that joke... Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:44, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Hobbitschuster, sorry for replying late to this. My godmother is a Modern Orthodox Jew, and she told me that many Orthodox rabbis are agnostic and some are even atheists. Judaism is a religion of laws, and if you follow all the laws while not believing in God, you are Orthodox. In that respect, Judaism is very different from Christianity, in which faith in Jesus Christ is basic. Though I don't mean to suggest faith has been unimportant in Jewish history; in fact, I believe it's only because of zealots who preferred to die than give up their religion that Jews still exist. Otherwise, the Jewish people would have all converted to the local religion and ceased to exist as a people with their own identity. Yet another contradiction. Here's another Jewish saying for you: "If you have two Jews, you have at least three opinions." Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I've heard the saying about the two Jews and three opinions" and even the Judaism and Atheism being compatible in some cases... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:21, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

San Jose | San José

If you go to the official website of the city, you'll realize that San José is the most used and official name. It also appears in the seal of the city. —The preceding comment was added by Salvaeditor (talk • contribs)

There's no accent on the website for the San Jose Convention & Visitors Bureau. I again suggest that you make your argument at Talk:San Jose (California). You'll need way more than one person's agreement to make this kind of change, so even if you convinced me, that wouldn't be enough by itself. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:45, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't have any opinion on how the name should be written but I believe User:Salvaeditor by the official website of the city meant the city government web page, and not the one for tourism. There the name is occasionally written with an accent on the e. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:55, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. On that site, the accent is used only some of the time (not in all caps). Anyway, the issue would be not what the official name of the city is, but what the most common usage in English is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:00, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

To chip in: The real academia de la lengua española (yeah I know, they have no business regulation how Americans spell stuff) explicitly says that on upper case letters the "´" becomes optional. So I would not focus too much on the way it is spelled in upper case letters. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:47, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

OK, noted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:08, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

padang bai

an ip reverted two entries for diving - maybe they dont exist anymore but as there was no edit summary, simply reverted, fyi JarrahTree (talk) 23:45, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

I think those had URLs that were dead. Check them and see. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:14, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

oops - thanks for that reminder JarrahTree (talk) 14:10, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

No problem! Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:20, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Article undeletion request

Hello, currently we are working in a training workshop in Christ University, Bangalore. The articles you have deleted recently, could you please undelete the articles? As the articles have been deleted, we are facing trouble. And it seems the IP has been blocked as well. Please have a look onto it soon. Thanks. --Titodutta (talk) 09:27, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

• The IP address is 27.251.198.2 --Titodutta (talk) 09:29, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much for contacting me, but I must decline your undeletion requests, because undeleting these articles would be a violation of Wikivoyage policy. Please read Wikivoyage:What is an article. This is not Wikipedia. Not everything merits a full article on a travel guide. If Christ University is an interesting place to visit, it should be a listing in Bangalore#See.

However, I will provisionally unblock the user who recreated a deleted article about an art bungalow or whatever exactly it was.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:33, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks a lot for replying so fast. Yes that makes sense. We are asking to work on userpage or sandbox. --Titodutta (talk) 09:37, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I'm so glad there's a good explanation for what just happened, because I was afraid it was an attack of page-creation vandalism. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:38, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we are taking care of it. We are asking students to create articles in userpage or sandbox now. Thanks. --Titodutta (talk) 09:54, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

cheese

i am having a very complex argument with myself about which locations are worh going to for cheese in oz. complex. unresolved. JarrahTree (talk) 08:38, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Take your time. No-one will push you on this. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:41, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

edits to Jinotega

Seeing that you have partially reverted the edits made by an IP to our article on Jinotega, I will now try to explain my dilemma: On the one hand, the editor in question seems to have been there and there is surely some value in their additions, on the other hand, their English seems to be limited as does the ability to differentiate between Jinotega the town and the equally named departamento. And some changes to the lede just make no sense to me... However, I think I am sometimes a bit harsh with newbies, so I am seeking your advice... Hobbitschuster (talk) 07:21, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I think that it's fine to include information about other places in the departamento, if there are no separate articles about the towns in question. Maybe it's good to give the new user some latitude to put in the edits s/he wants, within reason, and then when s/he seems to be done, edit the article as you see fit and leave a message on the IP's talk page thanking him/her for his/her edits and explaining your reasoning for editing them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

I posted messages to the talk pages of the user's 3 IPs (so far). Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:33, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Deleted entrances

Hello, i have noticed that you erased my entrance, even while you have some options, you are not showing every option and if you are deleting one, you should be erasing all of them. Otherwhise, you look like you have some interest with the other links. Please un-delete my entrance. Kindly, Alex. —The preceding comment was added by 189.249.164.68 (talk • contribs)

I'm glad you've stopped edit warring and are now communicating with us. Which other entry should I delete and why? You are not going to be able to list in more than one article, I believe, based on this site's don't tout policy. If you believe you have a good, non-promotional argument for why you should be allowed to list in cities where you (I believe) have no physical office, make the arguments in the talk pages for those articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:37, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your prompt response. If you take a look at this: https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Tulum section "get in", you will see that i only recommend another company, there are 4 companies, and i think that if you have those 4, then other companies should be allowed to do the same, but you erased only my colaboration. —The preceding comment was added by 189.249.164.68 (talk • contribs)

On talk pages, please "sign" your posts by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end.

I have no idea what you are talking about in regard to the Tulum guide, which mentions no private transfers from the airport or anywhere else, just buses and a collectivo. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:26, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Anyway, you are using the wrong argument. If other listings are in violation of the don't tout policy, that doesn't mean you should also be allowed to violate it, but that their listings should be deleted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:26, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

A large fierce older and large Czech woman who looked like she was still in the cold war

Toilet attendant for one of the darkest and gloomy loos I have encountered (apart from the outdoor urinals in Yogya, but hey thats another very long rave) a railway station on the way to crakow in Poland, the few minutes I was in the Czech republic to go to the toilet before the train ventured into polish territory, finger gestures for 1 or 2. She was going to charge me more for 2. I was trying to be obtuse, obviously it didnt work for you - thats fine, at least there is a mention of attendants. Some of the nicest most pleasant public loos that I have used in the world are personed by pleasant people taking small amounts of money, the Czech one wasnt. JarrahTree (talk) 15:02, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Just make the point more clearly. It's a relevant story; I don't think it's unique to charge more for the toilet than for the urinal. I think I recall correctly that a public bathroom in the Munich Train Station required a larger fee (or probably just a larger deposit) to enter the area with toilets. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:13, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Good point, the whole article is careful and I was trying to be javanese and elusive (should that be allusive) and not as specific, but yes. Clarity JarrahTree (talk) 23:09, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You should have gotten to know my neighbors in Terengganu. They were not allusive. When someone who had been in the house was not there and asked about, the response was "Dia gi berak". Do you understand? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:28, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Links from Commons

re: Special:Diff/2904177/2904197 Is there a process in place to link to Wikivoyage from Commons? c:Template:Sisterwikivoyage exists but it isn't clear to me if it should be used only when a non-category page exists on Commons, and how specifically it should be used. If we have any documentation on Wikivoyage about this process please include a link on WV:SEO as it would definitely be helpful to include links from Commons. -- Ryan • (talk) • 01:31, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I always put the Commons category in manually. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify, are you talking about linking from Commons to Wikivoyage, or vice versa? The WV:SEO advice is for the former. -- Ryan • (talk) • 05:58, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

To Commons from Wikivoyage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. Since we don't currently have any clear guidance on linking from Commons to Wikivoyage I've changed WV:SEO to just refer to Wikipedia again. -- Ryan • (talk) • 06:11, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I often build the Commons link by matching the article's Qnnn with Wikidata and pull the Commons Category property 'P373' then check Commons link in sidebar and if correct make the link permanent in the WV article - (To Commons from Wikivoyage) - Matroc (talk) 07:17, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what these things are. I just go to Commons and do a search on the name of the place. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:29, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I do that as well or edit the article - run a template script, build the Commons link, verify and save - as long as we get there with the correct info, its all good!! - Matroc (talk) 18:54, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't get them to roam; they just do it. 

Ha. ̴̴̴̴-Prof. Shareef 08:47, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

;-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:54, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

"Undistinguished-looking motel"

Re this: I suppose it's justified, as I haven't really expanded the listings for that article, but that's no "typical motel". The Explorer, by contrast, is widely considered Yellowknife's best hotel (it should really be classed as "splurge" at CDN$183 a night, honestly). The British royal family stays there, rather than the local Days Inn, whenever its members go to YK.

I know it seems boxy and boring, architecturally, but it sits on about the highest spot in central Yellowknife and has great views (like this late-hour sunset I took quite a few views of on the one "night" I was there. And as for its appearance, that sort of boxy style is typical for the city ... partly because most of its major buildings went up during the early 1970s when that was the thing, but also (I suspect) because that way they are easy to keep warm when temps get down to -50º in the winter as they have been known to do.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the Explorer is a local landmark that any resident of Yellowknife would probably expect to see pictured on a travel-guide page for their city. Daniel Case (talk) 18:15, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining all that. I'll revert my edit. If you could add that information to the listing for Explorer, that would be great.

By the way, unrelated, but is my behavior on Commons OK? The man who took the photo whose bokeh I objected to as making me physically dizzy and opposed featuring said I was using an unfair criterion for judging a picture. Seems fair to me, but what do you think?

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:19, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with it. And I don't think other people do, either. Daniel Case (talk) 04:54, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Daniel. It's interesting to take part in those discussions, more as a viewer than a photographer. I've done some photography and enjoy it, but I'm nowhere near the level of the really great photographers on Commons. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:12, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

New nickname

Please note my new nickname Prof. Manna (talk) 00:58, 18 December 2015 (UTC) Prof tpms (talk)

So I saw. You plan on giving gifts from the sky? ;-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:00, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, it is the name of the hamlet where I lived in my childhood. Prof. Manna (talk) 01:39, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

That makes sense. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:43, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Logjam breakage

Ikan, would you mind putting your two cents in to this discussion? PrinceGloria and I have been butting heads on the Stockholm issue for a few weeks now, and it seems we're at an impasse. As you know, it's a tough tightrope to walk having most of us Wikivoyagers basically defer to me on DotM-related issues, yet striving to make sure we all understand no opinion counts more than any other, which makes it awkward when I have to advocate very forcefully for my own POV. I think an impartial third-party opinion would be very helpful. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:08, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:16, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

AmandaRay079706‎

Do we need to block? Have removed link to private page. Should we not give the user a chance? --Traveler100 (talk) 11:07, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

No. That's an absolutely typical format for a spambot. Have you been doing a lot of recent changes patrols and noticing numerous spams of identical format? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:14, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Do we maybe want to think about documenting blocks on user pages? As I did not notice any pattern. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:22, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Try looking at the block list for users blocked as spambots. Restore their deleted user or user talk pages to read them, then re-delete them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:26, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

"Freeway"

While I'll agree that "expressway" is more common in New York, "freeway" is indeed used. For example, this sign on NY 590 North in Rochester. Powers ^(talk) 01:40, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate the info. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:34, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

"Diving in South Australia"

Hi Ikan Kekek. Thanks for reverting the recent changes to Diving in South Australia - the removal of information about particular service providers is unconscionable. I have the following comments. Firstly, I am the editor who started the article and who has made most of the edits since its creation. Secondly, I must point out that the "Dive Shack" and "Snorkel Safari" are in fact the same business. It originally started as the "Dive Shack" and changed to "Snorkel Safari" which the business moved its premises from Port Noarlunga to the centre of the Adelaide metropolitan area. Snorkel Safari is actually the name of a national chain of dive stores which has outlets in most Australian capital cities. Based on a recent conversation with one of the store managers, the business has reverted back to the Dive Shack name along with some changes that has not been publicly advertised. I will made the necessary changes to the article at an appropriate time in the near future. Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 10:32, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Excellent, and thank you. I hope you have a great 2016! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:54, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Aarhus (immigrant gang issue)

Hi. As you have dicovered, I tried to supply some important information for Middle Eastern visitors, regarding the nightlife. While I think it is useful information (many residents of Middle Eastern descent have complained for not being let in), I didn't wanted it to overshadow the more general information in the section, and tried to include it as a "note". Is there any way to do this on Voyage? Could it be mentioned in a more discete way somehow? Thanks. RhinoMind (talk) 22:03, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for all the great work you do, and for reaching out. You could use the Infobox template, but I think that will actually call more and not less attention to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:46, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Metro Atlanta

• My friend, I had to reread the article three times to see any mention to Athens. I honestly thought it was a silly joke. Sorry again :( Ibaman (talk) 19:39, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Next time, do a simple word search. Were you unaware that there is an Athens (Georgia)? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:42, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

No no, I have always been a fan of B-52's and REM, and know where they come from :) but honestly thought it was farther from Atlanta. Ibaman (talk) 19:46, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

That was exactly the IP user's point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Bay Area public transit—under construction

As you noted, this wiki is small enough that there are not many edit conflicts. On the other hand, the Bay Area public transit article needs a lot of development, and I am hoping others will jump in. As my editing sessions on it, so far, have tended to be long, I've copied {{In use}} to my user space and am uncommenting it in the article when I will be editing. I would like to do the same with {{Under construction}} and hopefully move them both into Wikivoyage template space (after making needed changes). I think those two templates will be useful as WV scales up. For now, I called {{Under construction}}, knowing it would red-line but thinking this would at least alert people to the fact that some sections that might look kind of complete really are not. Peter Chastain (talk) 23:47, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I'd say "if WV scales up". I hope it does, but so far, there isn't much evidence of that. And I don't think that putting a red-linked template (or even a regular one if it were approved) would really catch anyone's eye. I don't want to cramp your style, but I think you can expect someone to delete it if I don't. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:02, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Editing on Skyros Island reverted

Hi Ikan, I tried to correct an edit that I had made for Skyros (Greece) that was reverted, changed first person language and deleted a second link that it had but apparently it was reverted again, can you please advise on what else is wrong? Cheers! Ekt.sol.sas —The preceding comment was added by Ekt.sol.sas. (talk • contribs)

Thanks for writing to discuss this. I guess it's not that hard to detout this listing, but I think you should do it. What's the real name of these apartments? "Skyros Studios" looks like a promotional (SEO) description, probably not a genuine alternate name, and "in the Greek island of Skyros" is purely promotional and completely unnecessary because the listing would be in the Skyros article. Try to think of yourself as giving a purely descriptive listing with information that is helpful to prospective travelers, nothing promotional and nothing that's obvious. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:42, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Tijuana (article) hotel listings

Ikan Kekek says: "Hi, and thank you for your work in the Tijuana article, but would you like to help move listings to the district articles for the city? No specific templated listings should be in the article for the whole city. Also, I noticed that one or two of the hotel listings are touty. 'Hotel X is very close to attractions A, B, C, D and E' is not an appropriate description for Wikivoyage; instead, the hotel's address and lat/long coordinates should be given, and then visitors should look at a map and make up their own minds." Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:22, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

The listings have been moved to the district articles as requested. The listings were already put there by others. I simply re-format it to look like the what the listing format should be and to include more information such as address, url, phone number, etc. and to make it look consistent. The comments about the hotel rather they're "touting" or not were previously submitted by others. They were not something I wrote. I simply copied, pasted and changed some of the wording but the overall content remained the same so feel free to change it to whatever is appropriate to posting on here. Denontating 'Hotel X is very close to attractions A, B, C etc.' were more intended to describe the location than to tout as some these attractions are more of a local landmark than to tout. In some places, there are inconsistent addressing or NO formal addresses so everything is described in relative location to a major landmark or to each other. More so on the streets when trying to tell taxi drivers where you want to go as they may not necessary know a particular address. —The preceding comment was added by Anyone150 (talk • contribs)

I was just about to post a "Thank you" note to your user talk page for the work you've done. My phrasing didn't suggest you were at fault; it just pointed out things you could do to help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:57, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks.

Also the migrant hostels. They are spread out all over town and are not necessarily located in the districts you have carved out. How do you want to organize those? I moved everything else over as you asked. —The preceding comment was added by Anyone150 (talk • contribs)

Yes. Which I was going to thank you for. I don't know what to suggest about the migrant hostels, other than to post a message on Talk:Tijuana asking for input. By the way, on talk pages like this one (or that one), please sign your posts (type 4 tildes [~] at the end of the post).

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:14, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

I dont know if I ever told you this one

Somehow when I was doing fieldwork in yogya I was in contact with a jakarta based map maker whose attitude i found hard to fathom. I sent an email saying edition such and such of your map series shows roads that do not exist. (I said you have a road going up and down a 500 metre gunung kidul cliff on the side of the oyo river He wasnt the slightest bit interested, and replied with the claim he was so proud he had got all the extra rivers into the map . arrrggghh. it makes me think of the recent brick wall stuff about category of rivers and creeks JarrahTree (talk) 09:46, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Amazing. That's having no pride in doing one's job right. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:13, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Namche

• Hi, it is OK. I was already four times there, the last one in October 2015. The hotel Namche Bazar has accommodation ranging from 3 to 25 dollars. Best regard. DARIO SEVERI (talk) 08:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

And I've never been there and simply appreciate the content you're adding! Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:15, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

spam

You'd marked User:77.234.45.149 as "19:37, 2 March 2016‎ Ikan Kekek (talk | contribs)‎ . . (58 bytes) (-16)‎ . . (Not obviously spam.)"

Perhaps https://cleantalk.org/blacklists/77.234.45.149 would be reason to reconsider, if the only contribution being a generic user page which claims this site to be a "forum" isn't grounds enough? K7L (talk) 04:43, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

The post wasn't obviously spam, in my opinion. Using French on en.voy was a bit odd, but as for "forum", a lot of people use imprecise language. So apparently the user is a spammer, though there's nothing harmful in the post itself. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:43, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

curious

In the buddhism article there is basically one tout/spruik - Buddhism#Do and I am uncomfortable with that, I would think if one network makes claims, I can think of about 40 or roundabout of other networks of the tibetan, and other thervadan networks who could as easily make similar claims, I would have thought better to leave out rather than have undue promotion of one. Very cuirious as to how you would consider the issues. JarrahTree (talk) 06:21, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Totally agreed. I will remove that section. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:46, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

A note

Thank you for your revert – I would have done it myself but I was running late for Spanish class! –StellarD (talk) 13:12, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

IP exemption request

Is there a wikivoyage process for requesting an IP blocklist exemption beyond asking you / another admin? I'm often in places where wikimedia is inaccessible and find myself unable to edit when using tor or VPNs. Ttocslliw (talk) 19:09, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't know how to do this. Most IPs aren't blocked, though. I think you might want to try posting this message to the Travellers' pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:26, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Mitzpe Ramon guide

In the Mitzpe Ramon guide I added the passage: "Line 65 is an express bus that not enters inside towns and facilities on the way." This was not an error. I added the passage to let tourists that travel in the area by bus that bus 65 from Be'er Sheva to Mitzpe Ramon is fairly different than the other lines that go from Be'er Sheva to Mitzpe Ramon as that specific bus line have fewer intermediate stops and not enters to towns, military bases and Midreshet Ben-Gurion. The other bus lines that go from Be'er Sheva to Mitzpe Ramon(Lines 60, 64, 160) are regular buses that enter inside places that line 65 don't stop inside them.

Thank you, DanBus43Maalit72

Thanks for explaining. The English expression would be "does not enter", or maybe "does not stop" would be more idiomatic. I'll edit the passage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks

...for reverting my unintentional rollback. Touch screen on my gadget is sometimes difficult to operate. --Alexander (talk) 11:12, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Any time. We've all done the same thing, I think. I know I have. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:59, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Mawlamyine

Thanks for praise about the Mawlamyine article, there is still much to do regarding Myanmar ... working on it.

I also have to thank you for the work you do here. It is much greater. Keep up the good attitude.

Ceever (talk) 10:20, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I will do my best. I, too, try to improve articles about places I travel to, but for the rest of the year, when I'm at home, I just do my best to copy edit and such. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:22, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, But Your Grammar Is Incorrect

I noticed that you reverted my edit to United States of America, with the reason being a "grammatically correct sentence being turned into a run-on". While your concern is certainly appreciated, I'm afraid you are incorrect in this case; the sentence in question is not grammatically correct as is. To explain, here is how the sentence in question appeared prior to my edit (which is also how it appears now):

"Today, this is not the case; as most enter by plane."

Like this, the semicolon is being used improperly (or, conversely, the word "as" is being used improperly). Due to the fact that "as" is being used as a conjunction in this case, it cannot be directly proceeded by a semicolon, as this renders the role of the word "as" as a bridge between two distinct thoughts ("Today this is not the case" and "Most enter by plane") redundant. There are two correct ways to express this same sentence, which are as follows:

"Today this is not the case, as most enter by plane."

"Today, this is not the case; most enter by plane."

While I don't plan on reverting your reversion or changing the sentence again (I doubt that either of us needs an edit war), I do believe that you have made a mistake, that my edit was both justified and proper, and that you should take the liberty of correcting yourself. If you have any comments, questions, or additional concerns or rebuttals, please notify me on my talk page. If you doubt my logic, please feel free to consult another party for verification. Thank you, Colonel Wilhelm Klink (talk) 20:48, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I misread that as a comma. You are right. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:50, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

It's no trouble; sorry to make a big deal out of it. :) Colonel Wilhelm Klink (talk) 20:52, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Not a problem at all! I would probably have a similar reaction. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:56, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Ngwe Saung

Sorry, forgot the MS Word check again ... working on it.

Ceever (talk) 15:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks for adding all that content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:54, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Difference between "Related sites" and "In other projects" ... and Yangon

Hi

1) For the Sittwe article (and probably others) I have "Related sites" and "In other projects" on the left side, but they list the same links. Why and would it make sense to remove the links from the wiki text therefore?

2) The Yangon article is quite long due to the longish of the Main Pagoda there. However, the Yangon Pagoda is not particularly more special than other big ones all over the country. And I doubt anyone would want to concentrate on that much content compared to other sights in Myanmar. Would it make sense to move this content somewhere else? Or what would be a valid option?

Cheers

Ceever (talk) 17:59, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

The best thing for the sister site links is to have them at the end of the article for them to appear in the sidebar. Automatic links from Wikidata are the ones that should not be showing.

I don't see how text about a sight in Yangon would make sense to move anywhere else. If you feel that pagoda is getting undue emphasis, perhaps you'd like to edit the listing down a bit (I say that without having looked at the listing, or at least not recently). Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:44, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

HI Ikan

Hi Ikan, my apologiese I only saw your messages now, can you please contact me at tofoinfo@gmail.com regarding my submissions, I'd just like to clarify why I believe they should be allowed as it is a service to visitors of our area, we dont charge tourists any fees or commisions for using our information sites, we are a part of the Tourism Industry in the Inhambane province of Mozambique.

Many thanks for your time,

Kind regards

Eddietofo

www.tofoinfo.com www.barrainfo.com www.vilanculosinfo.com —The preceding comment was added by Eddietofo (talk • contribs)

Hi, Eddie. I appreciate your friendly tone, but that's not the way things work here. Individual admins don't email people about this kind of stuff. Your effort at explaining how you are an official (that is, governmental) agency or otherwise don't violate external links#what not to link to needs to be in Talk:Mozambique, and it's not up to me to decide that you deserve an exception: You'd need to persuade a consensus.

I'll also say for the record to anyone who might be reading that no-one should ask me to communicate with them by email about reversions, deletions or any other administrative action. We are not going to have a private chat and work things out between us, because Wikis are collective, not personal, and I also have a right to privacy. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:40, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Reasonable prices

And yet 2 listing above has "A little pricey" and you did not delete that. Why is that everytime I go on a wiki site and try to make it better, an editor-nazi comes along and wants to be anal as hell? I read the guidelines and differences between wikipedia and wikivoyage - this is not an encyclopedia dude! —The preceding comment was added by Pacezg (talk • contribs)

And you expect what kind of response to this? Yeah, this is a Wiki, which means that everyone's work is edited. If you think that makes people Nazis, start a blog.

With a real effort, I'll give you a substantive response to your over-the-top screed: Words like "reasonable" or "inexpensive" can be used to tout; "pricey" can't. Really, it's best to put in actual prices and let the reader make up his/her own mind.

Also, I'm always pretty unsympathetic to "but such-and-such has a similar phrasing". No one editor sees everything. If you think something violates policy or is in some other way bad, don't complain that I "did not delete" it; do your own work. And have a nice day.

Signed,

Someone the Nazi Party would not have accepted into its ranks,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:31, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

You people are really nuts. It was fun editing... for like the first 10 articles. Then people like you come in. Happened on both wikipedia and here. Enjoy your power pedestal and good luck. —The preceding comment was added by Pacezg (talk • contribs)

Did I make the listing more informative, and therefore more helpful to a reader? Talk about "nuts", calling someone a "Nazi" for copy editing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:52, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Dujiangyan

Re Dujiangyan - the bus company does not seem to have a web site. The map I posted is on imgur, but it's not available anywhere else online, so why not keep it? Ar2332 (talk) 09:47, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Does that violate its copyright? We have to be concerned about such issues. Please make a remark at Talk:Dujiangyan, and if a consensus develops, perhaps an exception can be made for this page.

Thanks for writing, and also for all the great work you're doing!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:36, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

OK, I've opened the talk page. Ar2332 (talk) 08:49, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Hey, quick Apology

Hey, I'm the 74. IP person. Sorry for those messed up edits, relatively new to this wiki. —The preceding comment was added by Branthecan (talk • contribs)

Cool. Which edits? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:40, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I see. No big deal. I'll post an official welcome message on your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:41, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

REPORT

I looks somebody try to change every phone number at Mount Merapi Article. please to make some measure soon. thanks —The preceding comment was added by 112.215.154.196 (talk • contribs)

You're saying the changes are incorrect? Did you revert them with an explanation in your edit summary? That's what you should do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:37, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

yups, user name: Ardi.keling and Ardi.Merapi was added his phone number to homestay listing. it's are in corect, he was change the contac person of homestay owner And Guide association with his phone number. but,to day, i was changed with true number phone of the homestay Owner. I'm Sura Mendhol, i live in Selo Village, near Merapi, i know all of Homestay Owner that wroted in Mount Merapi article. if neded, find me at Fb :Mendhol FromSelo WithLove and whatsapp: +62 815 48615234. Thanks ikan keke —The preceding comment was added by Sura Mendhol (talk • contribs)

OK, but three different numbers have been posted by three different users. Your remarks seem convincing, but you can understand why I'm confused. Could you please post a similar message at Talk:Mount Merapi? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:01, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

muj oblibeny

	pan
	vazeni Drancakova.barb1 (talk) 17:22, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the silver goblet! I had to put that through Google Translate, as I don't know Slovak. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:36, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

What's the difference?

What's the difference the two sentences below? Sue was walking the dog. Sue was walking with the dog. Please reply me!Yanlinnnaung (talk) 10:29, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

The difference is subtle and might not really amount to much. In the first case, "walking the dog" usually means you have the dog on a leash and you are taking it for a walk for the purpose of having it urinate or defecate or both. In the second case, the dog may be off leash, and Sue may simply be walking along with the dog, for no other purpose than to walk. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:42, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks so much!Yanlinnnaung (talk) 03:26, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi, How are u? I hope u are well,

What's the difference of in Proverbs and Quotes.Yanlinnnaung (talk) 05:38, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Proverbs and quotes aren't similar at all. A proverb is a wise saying like "Look before you leap", "What goes around comes around" (an explanation of karma) or "Pride goeth before destruction and an haughty spirit before a fall" (which is from the Biblical Book of Proverbs, Chapter 16, verse 18), and Proverbs is also a book of the Bible. A quote is just whatever someone said. So if someone says "Wow, that's stupid", I just quoted it, but that's no proverb. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:46, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, have a grate day.Yanlinnnaung (talk) 09:01, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Great. :-) You too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Transport at Lake Toba

Hello Ikan Kekek

I want to know,why you undo our listing at lake toba? because we are transporter at lake toba from medan airport. we have services for direct transport about 4-5 hours approximately to lake toba. and we can combine with another location if travellers to lake toba want to continue their trip. please give them a good information,so they easy to come to our Beautiful country Lake Toba Ikan Kekek. you also can help our Lake TOba become famous with good services,because travellers need services and truth information about that area.

Regards All Tobatransporters Crew HORAS! HORAS! HORAS! —The preceding comment was added by 180.241.67.173 (talk • contribs)

Hello. I guess you're using a dynamic IP. I explained in the talk page for the IP you were using yesterday that your website doesn't seem to give travelers the option of simply paying for travel from Medan Airport to Danau Toba and then back, but appears to require them to also pay for at least 3 days of tours. If that's indeed the case, your company unfortunately cannot be listed on this site because of Wikivoyage's prohibition on listing most kinds of tours. See Wikivoyage:Tour. If that isn't the case, it's probably important to post a clear update on your website. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:40, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Merapi guide

Whay you can't recomendasion i have e-mail and phone namber about guiding in merapi? Ardimenir@gmail.com 08:01, 12 May 2016 (UTC) —The preceding comment was added by Ardi.keling (talk • contribs)

I'm sory sir

sorry I have made a mess! but I beg you please email and my number written on your page merapi Ardimenir@gmail.com 08:46, 12 May 2016 (UTC) —The preceding comment was added by Ardi.keling (talk • contribs)

You mean on your user page? On your user page, you can briefly state who you are and what you do, but you cannot advertise on any page on this site. Have you read Wikivoyage:Don't tout and Wikivoyage:Tour yet? If not, make sure you read those pages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:50, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm So sory

but I beg you help me for writing my address on your merapi guide. thank you Ardimenir@gmail.com 09:16, 12 May 2016 (UTC) —The preceding comment was added by Ardi.keling (talk • contribs)

My friend, before you make any more edits to Mount Merapi, you need to respond to the thread I linked above in Talk:Mount Merapi. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:20, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Delete

thanks for the suggestion , but I have a problem because of my account on the wiki has been deleted! Ardimenir@gmail.com 09:27, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Your account has not been deleted - you're posting from it! All that's been deleted are posts you made, including on your user page, that seemed to violate the don't tout policy. And if you can post to this talk page, you can also post to Talk:Mount Merapi. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:47, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks

thanks for the warning and advice, then you can write me an email and phone number in the mount Merapi about a guiding sir? Ardimenir@gmail.com 10:00, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm not even really sure what you're asking, but I don't think so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:01, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks

Whay??? Because I make a problem in wikivoyage or something? Ardimenir@gmail.com 10:11, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

My friend, I'm a volunteer editor. It's not my job to write your listings. Please do what I suggested to you above. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:54, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks

Ok! No problems bud I'm little bit disappointed sir! Ardimenir@gmail.com 11:06, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

I've taken some time with you and given you advice. Your history until today has been to use promotional language and edit war, yet you're disappointed because I won't write your own edits, when I'm not even sure whether or not they belong on this site. :-P Put in some more effort, please. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:19, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks

Maybe you can talk to him sir Ardimenir@gmail.com 11:22, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks

I don't how I can make sure to you! But I say true! About I make problem in wikivoyage I'm so sorry sir!!! I just hope to you sir! Ardimenir@gmail.com 11:47, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Saudara/Saudari telah mengerti yang saya sudah tulis di atas? Kalau tidak mengerti cukup, malangnya Saudara/Saudari tidak mengerti cukup Bahasa Inggeris untuk tulis di Wikivoyage Bahasa Inggeris. Kalau sudah mengerti, sebab apa belum post di Talk:Mount Merapi? Saya tidak akan jawab lagi disini. Selamat pagi (atau untuk Saudari/Saudari, saya fikir selamat sore). Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:20, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your support and answer sir! Happy nice day and good luck! Ardimenir@gmail.com 12:29, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Ground Zero (talk) 11:17, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Certainly. You've made yourself a valuable editor here. Thank you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:31, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Google

Hi I got the listing from google maps and the description for the listing said "Google". --Frommkeyeditor (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

No need to cite where you got the listing from in the description, but in the future, you can mention in your editing summary where you saw the listing. However, if you copied and pasted the information, please paraphrase it, as this site has a copyright policy that doesn't allow for outright copy-pasting in most cases.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:22, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I understand working on it now. --Frommkeyeditor (talk) 17:23, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Excellent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:34, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Vijayawada in Hyderabad

Thanks User Ikan. Sorry if I made any incorrect assumptions re. spelling of Indian city names (viz. Vijayawada in Hyderabad article.) Spelling of geographic names was the first step by the British colonials to de-racinate the natives from their culture. Since samskritand its derivatives of the subcontinent are phonetic unlike the English language, any spelling distortions are seen as a continuation of the colonial power. Wikipedia in general and Wikivoyage in particular should be sensitive to the sentiments of the whole world since Wikipedia claims to represent the "world citizen". While the spelling mistake may not be intentional, it is still advisable that ownership of how it should be written (in roman alphabet) is given to those who live in the region. While my intention is not to deliver a lecture on the proper Wiki etiquette, my hand has been forced to just that because you left a long lecture/links on my talk page regarding the proper Wikivoyage etiquette. All the best, so long, and live long and prosper. —The preceding comment was added by Telugujoshi (talk • contribs)

Thank you for your message, and welcome! I certainly understand and sympathize with the points you're making. However, the policy of English-language Wikivoyage is to use the name and spelling most commonly used in English. That disregards local sensibilities sometimes, but this site's basic principle is the traveller comes first. Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, has different aims and policies. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:18, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

By the way, I'm sorry that my welcome +information post on your user talk page came across as a lecture. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:20, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

NeoMaps

Hi, Ikan. Looking at User:NeoMaps' global edit history and their editing on English Wikivoyage since yesterday, they bear a remarkable similarity to User:Turbo8000, as does the phrasing in their talk page posts (right down to editing other people's posts); Indeed many of his Wikipedia-edits are linked to Peru. I don't want it to seem like I'm stirring up trouble, but I do think I should raise my concerns with a sensible moderator who knows both users / accounts in question, and allow you to decide for yourself from the edit history. Thanks, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:59, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

I quite agree. Moreover, this user is blocked indefinitely on es.wikipedia.org. I haven't checked that user's latest edits (since last night). If you believe it's warranted, please start a thread at Wikivoyage:User ban nominations. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:27, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Hi. I am not Turbo8000, and second, I got blocked on eswiki because my username was a political party name so I requested the unblock. NeoMaps (talk) 19:54, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

OK, but please be collaborative and avoid suspicious edits like changing the spellings of words in other people's comments on talk pages. It's hardly an accident that both ThunderingTyphoons! and I drew the same conclusion about who you are, so be careful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:59, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Why would you go on to a conversation that took place months ago, that you, as a user who only registered yesterday, wouldn't even have a reason to know about, and correct the spelling comments just as Turbo8000 did back in January, leave the same snide edit summary ("fix") as Turbo8000, if you and he weren't the same person? Why would you even care to make such an edit, if it wasn't to continue the pointless campaign is disruptive edits you lost months ago? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:03, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I would just caution against everyone piling into this new user. Yes we have had some bad experiences before, but benefit of the doubt is probably called for in this instance. As far as I can tell, their only 'crime' is before overly enthusiastic with changing Spanish pronunciations --Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:11, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Understood. But I know it's him, so I'll just keep away --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:34, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

I don't agree with you, Andrew. Block evasion is grounds for an immediate ban. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:19, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree that block evasion is grounds for an immediate ban, and should be actioned if this does in fact turn out to be Turbo8000. I'm just not convinced it is yet, although the editing history does have a few parallels. Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:03, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm convinced, but like I said, I'm willing to give him more rope to hang himself. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:40, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

A question of tone

I realize NPOV is a Wikipedia principle that doesn't apply here, but I'm wondering if you can take a look at this edit and let me know if you think this might be too opinionated a tone. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:39, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

If it's fair, I've got no problem with it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:02, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Don't tout

Hello , my content was tagged and deleted as "dont tout" . Could you explain please how should I write my content for not touting ? Thank you. content is : Kusadasi —The preceding comment was added by Kusadasitaxi (talk • contribs)

Hi, Kusadasitaxi. Thanks for contacting me. I moved your post to the bottom of the page so that I can easily find it. It's customary on this site to put new posts on talk pages at the bottom of the page and sign them by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row.

That said, the problems with your listing included the following:

(1) You created an entire new primary section of the article, rather than just putting a templated listing in the "Get around" section. (2) You gave neither a street address nor a phone number for your company. How do you expect people to find it? By going to your website? It's great and important that you included your URL, but Wikivoyage is not a link farm, and Wikivoyage articles are supposed to be fully usable in printed form. (3) Your last sentence seemed a little promotional to me: "Taxi drivers in Kusadasi will also help you to find a restaurant, hotel or whatever you need." (The "whatever you need" is the problem; I admit I'm being a little nitpicky, but nevertheless.) If you tone it down just a little bit to something like "Taxi drivers in Kusadasi tend to be helpful and are normally happy to give you recommendations for restaurants" and so forth (though not at great length), it could be fine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:08, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer , I will make changes you want , and sorry for "whatever" it is all about my low english. When I make necessary changes you'll see and not remove this time I hope.

Thanks for your help Kusadasitaxi (talk) 10:25, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

You're welcome. "Whatever" isn't poor English; it just is a bit excessive, as what I need may not be something a taxi driver can do for me. I appreciate your working with me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:27, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

New "Don't tout" thread

i don't understand why you have removed my listing, at least you can explain ! it was at skopje, macedonia, under sleep- budget, the name is arss apartment —The preceding comment was added by Zizikozle (talk • contribs)

Zizikozle, I hope you don't mind that I moved your comment to the bottom of the page, where it's easier for me to see it. I also signed for you - it's customary to sign talk pages by typing 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row at the end of your post; otherwise, it can be very hard to see who posted what where.

As for your question, though: I already answered it by giving you links to look at. Read the links I gave you carefully. Then, if there's something you're not sure you understand, ask me a specific question.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:21, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Europe is not part of Europe?

Hi there,

I see you've reverted my edit by saying that "Europe is not part of Europe", which is kind of odd at face value but probably reflects a technical consideration (hopefully). In any case, I would think that the Europe article should be included in the Europe category - if only because Europe is, indeed, in Europe. Do you have any workaround for that? Thanks! Popo le Chien (talk) 10:34, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

No, you don't understand. "IsPartOf" is literally for articles that are lower down in the breadcrumb trail of this site's hierarchy. Making Europe subordinate to Europe - which is what "IsPartOf" does - makes no sense. Do you understand now? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:05, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Ok, got it. Then does it make sense to include European itineraries such as Cruising the Baltic Sea or Amber Road in the Europe category, or should they be categorized for every country they cross? Popo le Chien (talk) 07:39, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Itineraries aren't part of the breadcrumb structure of locations. You can see the breadcrumb trail of Cruising the Baltic Sea at the upper left of its page: Travel topics > Transportation > Boat travel > Cruising the Baltic Sea. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:48, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Regarding Trevor Noah's identity

He has this whole bit in his standup routine where he says that he does not speak Afrikaans and has trouble being mistaken for "Coloured" in South African places where they are a large group. Apparently when he went to the US he was happy to finally be "black" only to discover being mistaken for Latino upon arrival. It's a joke obviously (setting up him not understanding Spanish), but I think it sums up his identity. I will see whether I can find a video of it on Youtube. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:21, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

here is a video where he talks/jokes about his identity. You be the judge what he identifies as. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

It's funny. I think it's clear he doesn't consider himself Coloured. More than that is hard to be really sure about, because it's a comedy routine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:09, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

endless tireless unthanked

wow I hope they develop a special medal for you - your contribs seem to go on endless, trust you are well! JarrahTree (talk) 03:12, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I am. Thank you. How are you? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:18, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

real life has its small complications, I'll possibly wont bore you with the details here, maybe when I have settled, and moved back in here, rather than dumb category tagging on wp en... Its good to be back, hope to be much more active after yet another break JarrahTree (talk) 03:23, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Oh sure. Life is complicated, and then you die (but hopefully not too soon for either of us). Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:50, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Clarification

Just to clarify my edit, I was meaning to highlight that Jews do not believe in original sin. Hence, that is a key difference between Judaism and Christianity. There is part of the "Islam" article that mentions some differences between Muslim and Christian doctrine, so I though that it would be useful to compare Jewish and Christian doctrine too. The dog2 (talk) 19:48, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

We could work on these things, but I'm not sure how travel-relevant it is, and also, there is so much argument within the Jewish community about proper interpretation of Law that it will be difficult. Another thought, if we are going to tackle this at all, is that since Judaism was the father of other Abrahamic faiths, we would talk about how Christianity and Islam are different from Judaism, rather than vice versa - in other words, it is not necessary at all to understand Judaism in terms of how it differs from religions that sprang forth from it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:23, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Belgrade, Serbia

Hello! Thank you for your comment on my edit of the Belgrade article. Good to know about linking to the phrasebook, I have to admit I wasn't aware that Wikivoyage already had one, thank you for pointing it out. The reason for editing the NATO part out was that it didn't really fit with the section, as it is (unfortunately) just one of the many horrific instances of violence that Belgrade has suffered. As the History section is brief, there isn't much mentioning of the wars Belgrade has seen, and as such the NATO part just comes across as superfluous.

MeriadocTargaryen (talk) 11:53, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

It's the first thing many people think about when the hear Balkans. Whether justified or not. Just like any coverage on Nicaragua should mention the Contra war if only to get it "out of the way"... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:31, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

External links

Regarding the external link I had added to the itinerary section on the Djibouti (Country) page, I have to admit it was quite reckless of me to lazily add a link to a blog without even reading the rules. Either way, thanks for notifying me about it as I would have probably continued to do this in the future if it weren't for you. Would it be fine if I link the itinerary to a separate page titled 'Djibouti in 4 days' and rewrote what the blogger had described in their article while of course, giving credit to the original creator?

Irrelevant Notice: Ignore the strange username, it makes no sense and I came up with it on a whim when I had noticed a grammatical mistake on a Wikipedia page, I didn't want any strangers on the internet to know my IP address so I had created an account, I hadn't logged into it in ages and I'm only now using it as I want to actively become a part of the Wikimedia/Wiki Voyage community.

--The8-Fact2-Freak6 (talk) 22:16, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for posting here. By the way, I don't think you were the least bit reckless, nor do I expect you to know all the rules and guidelines by heart.

I wouldn't want to presume as one person to give you a definitive answer on your question about the itinerary. One potential issue is covered at Wikivoyage:Itineraries#"Personal" itineraries, although these guidelines have been enforced less lately than they were a few years ago when what I considered an excessive spate of deletions occurred because of it. You might want to bring this up at Talk:Djibouti and see if you can get advice from a number of different users. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:31, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, I'll have to check out Talk:Djibouti some time.

--The8-Fact2-Freak6 (talk) 11:52, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

By the way, another place you could bring this up, which might possibly get more eyeballs (no guarantee, though) is Wikivoyage talk:Itineraries. You could also point to whichever talk page your post is on at the Travellers' pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:43, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Kk2k7it

This user seems to be fond of introducing awkward less idiomatic wordings. While I am not ready to jump to any conclusions, we may want to be on the lookout. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:44, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I reverted all of his/her edits that I've seen so far. S/he also "corrected" Canadian spelling to American spelling in the Halifax article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:52, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Mlg, ID

Hi Kekek! I'd watched your activity on Malang City page. You look strugled to face tout writing there. Firts, may I introduce my self. I've signed up in wiki for couple years ago but I just really know how-to-participate here recently. So, I have some questions which might can helping you on that page.

1. 1. Some the wikivoyage policies and guidelines has been I known; Why were you just push on MLGTravel but not to others?
2. 2. Something you might not know is that Malang can reference the name of city and also regency. If I create a new page for Malang regency, is it justified?
   

Oh ya, good job! Presidenvolksraad (talk) 22:13, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Welcome, and thanks for introducing yourself! If I missed some touters, it was probably because I reverted a new touty edit, or that was simply the touting I saw. If you see other touting, please plunge forward and delete it, referencing don't tout in your edit summary.

My guess is that a separate article on Malang Regency might be confusing, but you might start a thread in Talk:Malang and see what others think.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:59, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Belgrade Hotels

What exactly do you mean by "Don't tout"? I added the Square Nine hotel with a description of the property, it wasn't copied from their website or any other. And leaving out the arguably best-ranked hotel in Belgrade is a move I think needs some explanation. Thanks!

MeriadocTargaryen (talk) 12:35, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that the hotel shouldn't be listed, but that the listing should conform to this site's guidelines. Please read Wikivoyage:Don't tout. After you've read through that page, if you still have questions, please ask. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:37, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Ok, I tried to make it concise but apparently more is better on Wikivoyage. Please feel free to edit the Sleep section the way you think it should be done. MeriadocTargaryen (talk) 12:41, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I haven't vetoed your idea (and I wouldn't really have the power to singlehandedly do so, anyway); I just don't want wholesale deletions to take place without a consensus. Wikis work by consensus. It's fine to plunge forward, but on potentially controversial issues, it's often best to wait a day or a few to see what others think. Please don't be discouraged by that, nor by my initial reversion of a listing. Your work is valued; new content and edits for greater user-friendliness are the lifeblood of this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:46, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the revert on my talk page

Yes, this is a Wikipedia vandal who has editted there under various IPs and sockpuppet accounts. When they are discovered and blocked, they retaliate by attacking on other wikis. Because that is the mature thing to do. This editor has harassed me on my Tardis Wikia page and at WikiCommons. They have done the same to other editors. If you are an admin, can you protect my talk page from IP editting for a while? Like until the end of the year? Or as long as possible? If you are not an admin, can you direct me as to where to make such a request? B/c I think they are just going to use different IPs to continue. Tbh, I find it somewhat amusing, but I understand it can be disruptive, so protecting my talk page is probably the best thing. Cheers. --Ebyabe (talk) 22:36, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi. I am an admin and have started a thread on this user at Wikivoyage:User ban nominations. Feel free to participate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:40, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

A message...

Thank you for notifying me.But I found there's a same link in the text.I thought I should delete one. HiemstraTIME (talk) 11:50, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh, sorry about that. I'll have a look. By the way, you can help by typing an edit summary that explains why you made an edit, if it isn't obvious from looking at only the change (rather than the whole article).

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:52, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Which article are you talking about, please? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:53, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh, the Brooklyn article. I know that all the "district" articles are linked in a list. I still didn't think it was a great idea to make the deletion you made, but I'll look at the whole article again to see the context. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:55, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree that since that article is linked immediately above that subsection, it doesn't have to be linked again. You can see what edit I made. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:59, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh,I have seen it.Actually I am a newcomer and I have never edited an article before.Thanks for your advice.You're so kind then. HiemstraTIME (talk) 12:39, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

No problem! I'll post the standard "welcome" message on your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:47, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry for disturbing you again. I have trouble creating my user page now. There was no reaction when I clicked the 'create your own' button. In addition, my talk page is blank, but oddly, I could see the welcome message sent by you this morning (and I had yet looked through it). So would you mind telling me what to do to creat my user page? Thank you very much. HiemstraTIME (talk) 02:30, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't really understand why you're having these problems. I posted to your user talk page, not your user page. I post by clicking "Edit" at the top of the page and then typing. You should be able to do that on your user page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:07, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I'll have a try... Thanks. HiemstraTIME (talk) 03:24, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh,it can be edited now

Non-Free link

replied on the talk page [34] (from a different IP address). Let me know what you think. 24.127.60.32 20:48, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi!

	Hi!
	Hello, Ikan! I am very appreciate for you edits of my improves of article about Ganja. Thanks man ! Ismail Khatai (talk) 19:38, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Delighted to help you. Thanks for adding the content!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:54, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Vancouver article

Hi Ikan! I am new to Wikivoyage (I mostly stick to editing the English Wikipedia and sometimes WikiData). I was not aware about the linking policy while using Wikivoyage. Thanks for letting me know! Daylen (talk) 02:55, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

No problem! I just gave you some more detailed pointers on your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:58, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Algarve article

Hi Ikan, there is no violation of copyrights, because I am the owner of the website www.algarve-portal.com. Juergen Algarveportal

Thank you for telling me, Juergen Algarveportal. I thought you might be, but I had to do due diligence. Wikivoyage:Copyleft also says this:

If you are the original author of the text, note that on the article talk page, or else someone will likely remove it as a copyright violation.

So you can go ahead and add content from your website, but please post to Talk:Algarve to the effect that you are the owner of the copyright for that site and have freely decided that the Creative Commons Attribution/Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 license will apply to the portions of its text that you include in the Algarve article on Wikivoyage.

There is one caveat, though: Make sure that nothing you do runs afoul of another Wikivoyage policy, the don't tout policy. Because the problem is that Wikivoyage does not allow links to portal URLs under the external links#what not to link to policy. That said, as a citation on the talk page, you can certainly link the portal there.

Thank you for your generosity, and please let me know if you have any questions.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:47, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi Ikan, Thank you very much for your kind welcome and the information provided. Can you restore the text I have already added, because it is not a 1:1 copy of content from the Algarve-Portal? I fully understand the restrictions regarding links to sites like ours, but in several cases it will not be very pratical or even impossible to import the full content.

All the best,

Juergen Algarveportal (talk) 10:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Please don't import the full content, but if you would like to argue for an exception to the external links policy, you would have to make an argument at Talk:Algarve and try to get a consensus behind it, and I wouldn't expect such an argument to succeed. There's a background behind the external links policy, which is that in the days when we used to allow 3rd-party external links, we spent too much time arguing about which links were and weren't OK, so a decision was made to allow only primary links (such as links to websites for museums or churches in listings for museums or churches, and a link to a city's official tourism bureau at the first mention of the city's name in the body of the article).

You can see your edits here. Please go ahead and put back any text you like that specifically applies to Algarve (I'm not so sure about general information about highway tolls in Portugal and such - that might belong in Portugal#Get around), and I feel apologetic about the application of the external links policy to you, but as I said, exceptions are difficult and would have to be agreed on by a consensus.

Thanks again, and all the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:30, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi Ikan, Thank you for the clarification. I have restored the text, but removed the links to the Algarve-Portal to avoid any conflicts. --Juergen Algarveportal (talk) 11:02, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your generosity and cooperation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:20, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Brownsville (Texas)

Hello,

Saw your edit that you made on the Brownsville (Texas) WikiVoyage page. How did you find out about the article? No one has updated it in years and as soon as I started making edits, it attracted someone's attention. I figured no one looked at the article, but I guess I was wrong.

De88 (talk) 17:59, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Hello, De88, welcome to Wikivoyage, and thank you for editing! Many of us spend some time doing Wikivoyage:Recent changes patrol, so we see the articles that have been most recently edited. While checking these new edits, we sometimes notice other things in the article that need editing. Ikan Kekek (talk)

19:30, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

That makes sense. If you see any mistakes or you want to add on to the article, feel free to do so. I started updating the whole article since it was rather a bit boring. No one had updated it in a long time and decided to fill in information about the city. Thanks for your edit! De88 (talk) 20:01, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for yours! This guide depends on volunteers to add content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:35, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

You're welcome! About your edit in the McAllen (Texas) WikiVoyage page, I do agree that placing the Harlingen airport is a good option for tourists to know when visiting the area. The only problem I have with the McAllen page (Wiki and WikiVoyage) is that their content sounds way too promotional. The editors seem to add a lot of misleading things about the city, mostly their Wiki page. Months ago, I had to delete tons of content that was promoting and/or boasting too much about McAllen. I guess I am too harsh on that but thanks for explaining why you reverted the edit. De88 (talk) 02:40, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

I understand completely, and for the record, I'd encourage you to be pretty ruthless in detouting, as long as you don't delete important listings wholesale. An irredeemably touty listing for a store can often be deleted without any real trouble for visitors, but a listing for a nearby airport should stay. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:56, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Will keep a look out for any touting. On a personal note, is the Brownsville (Texas) WikiVoyage page good? I'm looking for feedback. Anything to add to inform tourists? Thanks again! De88 (talk) 03:21, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

It looks pretty good. It's excellent that there's so much geotagging. Some of it might be a bit wordy. I question the existence and content of the "Learn" section. Wikivoyage guidelines are not to list any institution of learning under "Learn" unless it offers ~2-week or shorter courses for non-matriculated students, so that short-term visitors could learn something while on vacation. The libraries probably provide Wi-Fi, so they should be listed in a "Connect" section. The colleges should be listed in "See" if they're interesting sights, or in "Do" if they offer concert series and/or college sports to watch, but otherwise, probably shouldn't be listed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:43, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

P.S. Based on its description, University of Texas Rio Grande Valley should definitely have a "See" listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:44, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh, another thing: That article needs images. In case you'd like to help out with that, have a look at Wikivoyage:How to add an image. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:48, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the feedback! I will make sure to correct the 'Learn' section and move the information to the correct area. Is it possible to take images that are already in Wikimedia Commons?

Not only is it possible, but that's always what's done, in the format [[File:Filename|thumb|Caption]] Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:53, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Was thinking about the suggestion you made about moving University of Texas Rio Grande Valley to the 'See' section and I think it's best to leave all the universities and colleges as there are people who want to visit the area since they plan on taking courses in one of the colleges that the city offers. Don't you think adding info on universities is vital for those who plan on moving to the area? The Austin WikiVoyage also has a list of universities in the area. What do you think? Ikan Kekek - De88 (talk) 22:06, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Many of us would like for Wikivoyage to redefine "travel" to encompass moving or studying more than it does, but the rough though controversial consensus is that with the partial exception of travel topics, "travel" consists of visiting someplace for about 2 weeks or less, whether as part of a longer trip or as the sole destination on the trip. Have a look at Wikivoyage talk:Listings#Learn for a relevant discussion. And perhaps the Austin guide may need editing; I'll try to remember to have a look later. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:37, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining. The McAllen WikiVoyage (city nearby in Brownsville) also lists a college with five campuses. Should this be deleted as well? De88 (talk) 21:33, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

The libraries should probably be moved to a "Cope" section, and yeah, the college listings should be deleted unless they belong in "See" as interesting sights or in "Do" as places to go to ballgames, concerts, public lecture series or the like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:56, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion! Will move them. Anything else I should add? As I look at the WikiVoyage page for big cities (like Houston and Dallas), they have an immense amount of information in their articles. Do you think the info provided for Brownsville is more than enough for a city of its size? De88 (talk) 01:11, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Big cities normally do get more detailed coverage. I'm not sure when I'll have the time to look at the Brownsville article in detail, so basically, what I'd say is: anything interesting that's non-encyclopedic and travel-related can be included. You might have a look at the article for Buffalo, New York and its districts to see an example of the upper limits of how much information can be provided that's still relevant for a visitor. I don't suggest that you need to emulate that article, though. Type "Category:Star articles" into the search bar and see how various other articles that have been considered exemplary have dealt with things. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:53, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Good to know. I will look into it. I'm thinking of adding a 'Spa' section under 'Cope'. Do you think this fits the category or is it irrelevant to the article? De88 (talk) 21:41, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Either "Cope" or "Do". Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:39, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Quick question, when does an article become a "Guide" article? Where does Brownsville current stand as the article it is right now? How much work is needed to get the article into "Guide" status? De88 (talk) 06:50, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Have a look at Wikivoyage:City guide status for guidelines, but other than the formal guidelines, there are subjective opinions - Guide status is a more subjective determination than Usable status, which is pretty cut and dried. I am probably too busy at the moment to advise you on whether the Brownsville article is already a Guide, plus my internet is out and I'm typing this from a local restaurant that's kindly letting me use their Wi-Fi because I'm a regular customer, so use your own judgment or start a thread on the article's talk page and see if you get more input, or you can wait for whenever I get around to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:09, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion! Sorry for replying so late. I just came across your message. I think I'll wait until you have some time to look over the article. You have been very kind to me, as opposed to other users on WP who are known to be vile. In the mean time, I will gather more information on the city and provide thorough details. De88 (talk) 20:46, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

You're very welcome! We need people to contribute their knowledge. Eventually, it would be nice to feature Brownsville on the front page for a month as an Off the Beaten Path destination. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:58, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

That would be nice! How does one get an article as an Off the Beaten Path destination? Also, how can I upload a banner for the Brownsville, Texas page? I'm having a hard time trying to figure it out. De88 (talk) 00:55, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

It has to be a good Guide-level article and then would need to be nominated at dotm. In terms of your question about pagebanners, see Wikivoyage:Banner Expedition#How do I help? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:04, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm having a bit of an issue trying to upload the banner. It is asking me to place a copyright tag since the picture is not mine. The website I got the picture is from the city. It's called the Brownsville Convention & Visitors Bureau (brownsville.org) and I have no idea what tag belongs to the domain. Do you by any chance know how to work this out? De88 (talk) 03:51, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

You can't use copyrighted photos! Please don't try to use any photo from any copyrighted site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:59, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

That sucks! It's really hard taking a nice picture of the panoramic view of the city. I'll try to go out and take some pictures. Hope they actually come out nice and not low-quality, tilted, etc. Thanks for the help! De88 (talk) 04:05, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Hey, copyright is important! Did you already look through all the photos in Category:Brownsville, Texas on Wikimedia Commons and find nothing suitable? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:17, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

I know, but I just thought it would be legally acceptable to get a picture, while giving the owner the rightfully credit he/she deserves. WikiVoyage runs very different from WP. I checked the category and there isn't a good picture that can make a great banner. De88 (talk) 04:34, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

[unindent] I don't think you understand Wikipedia policy correctly. I just looked up w:Image use policy and found a useful link to Wikipedia:Copyrights § Image guidelines:

In contrast to the federal government, most state and local governments in the United States retain copyright to their employees' work. Such work is not in the public domain, so please make sure to check copyright information before using it.

And the website you were looking at has expressly copyrighted its contents. You'd have to get written permission from them in order to be able to copy any images to Commons and then use them on other Wikimedia projects.

One thing about a banner, though: A mediocre banner (though not a terrible one) as a placeholder is better than none and can be replaced by a better banner after you've had a chance to take some large, high-quality photos. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:29, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not very familiar with all of WP's policies. When I made the account, I didn't take into mind all the rules WP had. Figured since WP has an option to upload photos under "fair use", that it would also apply here. Any suggestions on how to take a great "high quality" picture for the banner? Something inexpensive. De88 (talk) 20:18, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

I spend a lot of time looking at photos on Commons, but I'm no photography expert. I would suggest for you to ask questions there. I'm not sure where the best place to do that is. I was thinking Commons talk:Photography critiques, but I'm unsure that's the best place to ask questions about equipment, setup and the like. You could look at some of the advice at Help:Improve the quality of your pictures; a lot of it's in German, but Google Translate will help with that. Quality is defined, with examples, at Commons:Image guidelines. Also, don't overlook Commons:Free media resources, because there are some sites outside of Commons that include images whose licenses allow them to be uploaded to Commons, but be careful, because, for example, there are problems with Flickr. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:00, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

After spending some time deciding how to edit and re-arrange info on the page, I have come to ask how close is the Brownsville (Texas) into becoming a 'Star' article? My guess is that it will need more much pictures but how much more info does the article need to be classified as 'Star'? Ikan Kekek De88 (talk) 10:05, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi, User:De88. I don't know when I'll have the chance to look over the article with a fine-enough-toothed comb to answer that question. The thing is, for Star status, everything has to be just about perfect. The idea of a Star article is that it's the best guide available for the place in question, and also that it's impeccable in style, appearance, writing mechanics and readability. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:23, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Safety on beaches...

Re your comment on 'undertow', do we have an travel topic on this?

Safety on beaches has been an issue in the UK given the incident on Cmamber Sands. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:24, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

I really don't. I just remember when I was living in Terengganu in the mid 70s that, apparently (this was a story I was told, but it's surely credible), Australian tourists asked where the local beach was, and locals told them where it was but that they shouldn't swim there because there were hantu (evil spirits) there. They dismissed their rural Malay advisors as superstitious yokels, tried to swim at the beach and were killed by the undertow. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:16, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

I added Villa Margarita to the St Croix US Virgin Islands page and it was removed. Why? Thanks.VillaMargaritaStCroix (talk) 07:30, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

VillaMargaritaStCroix (talk) 07:30, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Hello and welcome! My reason was stated in my edit summary, and I'll also post it here:

"Specific listings go in city articles."

You didn't give a street address or geo coordinates for your villa, but you should list it in the guide for either Christiansted or Frederiksted, whichever is closer to you. You'll also want to look at welcome, business owners for some useful guidelines relevant to you.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:36, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks

For pinging me - the notification system here in the larger wp universe is improving by the leaps and bounds, and I had problems with sundanese editors xenphobic arrogance on wp en from about 5 years ago (the malay nationalists were up to no good about 2 or 3), so it is nice to find friendly and cooperative and understanding eds who are improving tourism info about the complex island of java, and for me to exude my own version of xenophobia of a bantul/Merapi axis bias and deluded and declining enthusiasm as the years tick away from when I was last there JarrahTree (talk) 11:06, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Certainly, my friend. I hope you've been well. Ikan Kekek (talk)

I should have emailed you some time after last edits in july - horrible shift work for almost a month, then two months of an extended flu... much better but feeling much older though JarrahTree (talk) 11:12, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

A nasty flu will do that to you. I'm glad you're on the mend. Don't tire yourself out. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:14, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh well back to be a nuisance here again then :) JarrahTree (talk) 11:48, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Hey, go crazy! :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:57, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

I have a deep personal distrust of 'artificial regions' created for touristic purposes - here in Western Australia we have some bizarre ones unrelated to government or geography, just some marketing person in government with a very overpaid limited imagination. Reading this stuff about Java brings me back to where I did my field work all those years ago - not sure whether to squawk like a chook, bark like a dog, or break out in high pitched falsetto when I see suggestions for artificial tourist regions of java... JarrahTree (talk) 14:05, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Chalet Kitchen Listings

Hi Ikan I see you have removed my listings for Chalet Kitchen. I was afraid this might happen. We are a small company (4 employees) but we operate across multiple resorts in the french alps. The service we provide (home cooked food delivery to chalets for tourists) is a new concept and I think it would be a valuable resource to list in the resorts we service (about 10 places with pages here). It is of particular use to the budget traveller as all the food is cooked by them at their accommodation by them thus making it cheaper than restaurants. How can I list this business without falling foul of the guidelines? (We have a head office in Les Gets but that is just a facility which no traveller would ever see). Any advice you can offer would be appreciated. Thanks. —The preceding comment was added by Ckwikiuser (talk • contribs)

My feeling is that the best thing you can do while falling within the don't tout guidelines is to list in the Les Gets article but mention that you also serve chalets in Towns A, B, C, X, Y and Z. The other alternative would be a listing in a regional article, but regional articles aren't supposed to have specific listings in them. (By the way, in talk pages, it's traditional to sign your username by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of your post.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:11, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for this quick response. I think I will list in Chamonix as that is where we do most of our business. I will try to keep a neutral tone. Thanks for your help. Ckwikiuser (talk) 13:22, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

You're welcome, and thanks for working with us (me, in this case, but our guidelines). The thing is, normally speaking, you would need to include an address, although if people can't visit it, that should be stated. But a name, description and website is generally considered an insufficient listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:25, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Needs improvement

The {{needsimprovement}} template was meant to aid in tracking new articles that may not merit a standalone article. The idea was that an article could be tagged for tracking while giving the original author time to develop it to a minimal level that demonstrated that a standalone article was not unwarranted, and if they did not return then the article could be otherwise addressed. As a result I'm not sure that removing it from the Badagry article was correct, but wanted to leave a message rather than revert in case you knew something about the location and were confident it should have an article. -- Ryan • (talk) • 07:42, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. When and where was there a decision to use this template on this site? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:01, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

I recall several discussions, but Template talk:Needsimprovement is one place where discussion took place. Like nearly all discussions on this site things stalled without a clear outcome, so this template has been in limbo ever since. -- Ryan • (talk) • 14:59, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. What I get from that discussion is that there was never an agreement to add this template to more articles. So I would propose that no-one add that template to any article without further discussion that shows a consensus behind doing so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:13, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Ido phrasebook

A friend of mine working on the Esperanto phrasebook showed me Wikivoyage, and recommended that I borrowed the Esperanto structure for my phrasebook about Ido. If you let the Esperanto phrasebook be, shouldn't the Ido phrasebook get treated the same? Also Manx Gaelic phrasebook; Manx has been extinct since 1974, Scottish Gaelic phrasebook; only 1.2% of Scotland speaks it, West Frisian phrasebook; barely anybody speaks it and they all speak Dutch too, same with Irish phrasebook, Corsican phrasebook; everybody there speaks French and only a few have even 'conversational knowledge' of that language. That phrasebook even says that the phrasebook is 'just for fun'. – Algentem (talk) 18:43, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm not Ikan, but you might be interested in this recent discussion: Talk:Phrasebooks#Is_there_any_threshold_of_usefulness.3F ϒpsilon (talk) 18:45, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

I would definitely support deleting the Esperanto phrasebook. Having one or two or a few useless phrasebooks on a travel site doesn't justify adding another. I will nominate this new one for deletion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:56, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

See Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion#Ido phrasebook. And no offense, Algentem; I would love for you to contribute travel-related content here. I just don't think a phrasebook for a made-up language is travel-related. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:03, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Kitesurfing article

Hi Ikan

Thank you for your kind comments regarding the contribution to the kitesurfing page :)

As far as the listing goes, I see where you're coming from but my thought is that the key aspect to the article is the 'learn' section. It heads up the page, and is probably the main thing most users will be interested in when reading the page.

Our instructors at Graykite have experience of teaching kitesurfing all over the world and my thought was to develop the article so that it provides more information on kitesurfing, learning to kitesurf and top locations. And that it should provide a recommended place (or places) to learn under each destination. Which will make the article both more complete and more useful to people who visit with the intention of learning about, or learning to, kitesurf.

We have a list of schools we recommend to our students if they want to learn in other places (it's not a commercial relationship, just a kindness to our students based on our instructors' past experience) and was planning to add them all. Obviously as time permits!

As other people see the article growing, hopefully they will contribute their experience too. Hopefully this makes sense to you?

Cheers GK Graykite Tarifa (talk) 10:47, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

It does make sense as one possible way to go with the article, and the fact that you'd plan on listing a bunch of schools, not just one, makes a big difference. My suggestion would be for you to lay out a proposal of adding a series of kitesurfing school listings on the talk page and see what other people think about that direction for the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:00, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Thinking about image policy

Hi! I hope you don't mind me writing to you here - but you have been ever so helpful to me so far and you seem to have a very in-depth knowledge of the project.

I was wondering why there were so few images on articles so I did a bit of digging and discovered Wikivoyage:Image_policy#Minimal_use_of_images.

"Travellers may be using Wikivoyage from networks with very low bandwidth. In some countries, an internet café with ten computers connected to a single 56k modem is still fairly common" While this is true (although I'm not so sure about the 56k model part :)) and as a member of the Wikimedia team responsible for the site I think about this problem a lot, I also am not sure how up to date this is given the banners on Wikivoyage - these tend to be more bytes than all the other images in the article put together. I think it is a shame that we don't encourage more images. Although images don't tend to be useful during the act of travel itself, images are an important part of the travel experience - they can inspire wonder and lead to people travelling to places they've never been. Not to mention, images - especially free content ones could drive a website up search rankings and provide an easy way for new editors to contribute (using VisualEditor especially which makes adding images a lot easier).

I was curious what your thoughts on this were.

I think this problem should be solved with technology and the policy should change to allow more images. We have several options:

• Drop the policy and make this a problem of the many people who build the MediaWiki software e.g. a desktop version of this.
• Similar to the Wikivoyage main page, using templates and gadgets, we could show JavaScript based carousels on each article that show one image to users without JavaScript and for those with JavaScript allow exploration of other images.

Is there any history I should be aware of on this subject? Who would be the best people to engage in such a discussion and where? Jdlrobson (talk) 00:08, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not a programming geek, so I can't specifically address your ideas about programming and gadgetry, but we did have a very recent policy discussion on what "minimal use of images" does and doesn't mean and whether we should change the policy (in the end, we did not), so I think that's where you should probably look first: Wikivoyage talk:Image policy#Minimal use of images - not appropriate.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:21, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Jdlrobson, I think the problem of too many images becomes really severe when the page is printed out or converted into pdf. All images will be there, which is an incredible waste of paper. It would be great to get rid of images in the printed version, except for, perhaps, a few important ones (subway maps and such). Otherwise, I think that the amount of displayed images is a matter of taste. For example, we use a lot more photos (but, of course, only good photos) on Russian Wikivoyage, because we believe that visual perception is important to motivate people for traveling. On the other hand, the English-speaking community is much more reserved about the photos, as you can see from the discussion quoted by Ikan above. They simply do not want that many images to appear.

Another idea would be some pop-up window that displays different photos from a given Commons category, because more and more listings are now linked to Wikidata and, thus, to a Commons category. It might be an interesting feature, although of not-too-high importance, I think. --Alexander (talk) 07:07, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your perspective, Alexander. I think clickable photos would be a great idea and a good way to use our relationship with a sister site to the advantage of both. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:21, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Continuing developments in Talk:Buffalo

Thanks for your vote of confidence early in the discussion on revising Buffalo's districtification scheme. The discussion has progressed a bit since then and covered quite a lot of new ground, and I wondered if you wouldn't mind chiming in again? I'm on the wrong side of a two-on-one, to be blunt, and the discussion could use a fresh perspective. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:03, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, my expertise on the subject is quite limited, but I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:37, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't think you'll like my response too much, but it's sincere. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:26, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Re: Poisonous or venomous

Poisonous, venomous and toxic are informally often used interchangeably, but technically (medically/biologically) they are not the same and I'd expect a reputable dictionary to be aware of the distinction. In short, it's all in the delivery: animals that can inject toxins by biting or stinging are specifically called venomous, not poisonous. Another way of remembering the difference is: poisonous is passive, venomous is active.

Note that poisonous animals do exist: think of the poison dart frogs or blow-/puffer fish for instance. Such animals are poisonous when touched and/or eaten, but cannot deliberately/actively deliver toxins by biting/stinging, hence they are not venomous.

Hope this helps, --83.162.175.214 23:59, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

It does. Thanks for clarifying. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:21, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Oakland Edit War

I don't even know how it started, but thanks to you and a few others for stopping the warning box add baloney for Oakland - I think someone was freaked by the news, or just as likely an outright troll convinced that Oakland is one big pile of smoking stereotype - either way, thanks! :-) L. Challenger (talk) 09:13, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

If you'd really like to know how it started, you can look at Talk:Chechnya#Safety in Chechnya. In short, it has very little to do specifically with Oakland. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:21, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Template Mapframe align issue

• see Template Mapframe Talk page - 23 pages with broken maps were corrected by Roland and a few by me as issue came about because align=none is not viable in the template any more... Issue was also raised in the Pub - Hope that helps answer your question to Roland -- Have a great day! -- Matroc (talk) 20:46, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

It does. Thanks, Matroc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:18, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Re: Natural Park of Arrábida deletion

Ok that makes sense. Can you restore the other sections that are not from Wikipedia? They were copied from a printed flyer that is given to visitors of the park. Enricovedeluce (talk) 19:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't think it would be appropriate to restore those sections, either. Fair use and WV:Copyleft don't allow you to copy swathes of text that aren't explicitly in the public domain or covered by Creative Commons licenses, regardless of what kind of credit you give. It would be best for you to summarize and paraphrase bits of content from that flyer, giving credit in one or more edit summaries. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:32, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Cree language in Northern Ontario

Regarding this edit, it's true that there are many isolated communities in Northern Ontario that speak mainly Cree, and very much a stretch (though not totally false) to characterize Cree as in imminent danger of extinction - it counts a relatively healthy population of about 125,000 native speakers, and while it's in decline like most Amerindian languages, Wikipedia calls it one of the least endangered indigenous languages in North America. Ordinarily I would update the article to indicate that, but I'm currently out of town without internet access except through my phone, and editing WV on mobile is problematic. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:21, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

I will do so and cite this post. Enjoy your travels! Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:24, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Punjab

Ikan Kekek, you've recently reverted my edit [35] based on, "We don't divide huge areas of continents into small regions, but instead, just list the countries." This doesn't seem to be the case for Australia and Europe, then why for South Asia? The Punjab is a non-political unit not restricted to the political boarders of neither India or Pakistan and this deserves to be recognized. Kindly mention in the South Asia page. Peeta Singh (talk) 05:22, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Peeta Singh, Australia is not just a continent but a single country, and Europe is a continent. South Asia is a region of Asia, just as Balkans, Baltic states, Benelux, etc. are regions of Europe. And moreover, if you're going to start listing regions of South Asia, you would also have to include Bengal, the Deccan Plain, the Indus Valley, the Thar Desert, and quite a few others - all are regions, but we don't list such regions in sub-continental region articles, because that just confuses the geographic hierarchy we use on this site. Instead, some of them are dealt with as regions at the country level, while others are just dealt with as extraregion articles. We like to keep hierarchies coherent and user-friendly on this site. Mentioning the Punjab on the same page that countries are listed as being in the super-national region of South Asia means privileging it over other regions and doesn't make sense, organizationally. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:40, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

If East Asia can be recognized as a "cultural and geographic region of Asia" then why not Punjab? Peeta Singh (talk) 05:57, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

East Asia is a huge, multi-national region of Asia; Punjab is not. Please read Wikivoyage:Geographical hierarchy. There are many things that you can edit at will (within reason) on this site; geographical hierarchies aren't one of them. They exist in a coherent state for very good reasons. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:02, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Diving in Barbados/Wreck of the Brianna H

Hi Ikan. There has been a dispute lately between me and another user at the above-linked article and associated talk page. I think I'm in the right, but I would appreciate it if you could perhaps inject yourself into the proceedings as a neutral third party. Thanks. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:13, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Hello Ikan. I wanted to thank you for your 2 earlier comments of last night (today UK). I have no dispute with Andre Carrot Flower. He did what he wanted in a prememptory fashion because he could. I swallowed it. I want nothing more ever to do with CarrotFlower and I was about to walk away, but after coming across Ryan and your encouraging remarks I will do my best again, along the lines you have spoken. There ARE proper ways to communicate with volunteers and donors as you 2 have shown. Not If you don't like it "Tough". Johnmartindavies 17:09, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

If I may, my observation is that he got understandably frustrated when you fought back instead of doing what you have now done. Not to sound scolding, I hope, but just as an observation: The pages of destination guides are not the place to make personal remarks of any kind, and edit warring is never a good idea and almost guaranteed to antagonize anyone who's explained an edit you don't like as based on Wikivoyage policy. I will do my best to help prevent the kind of situation that took place this time from recurring, but if it does, it would be helpful to avoid edit warring, copy whichever version you like to your user page, and leave a comment on the article's talk page that addresses the situation, not the particular user who reverted or deleted your edits. But mainly, I'm glad we got past this and that you are still here to make more contributions on behalf of readers who can benefit from them. That, and collaborative editing, are the cornerstones of this site.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:58, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Ikan, you and Ryan explained to me the way to resolve the differences between trying to work on a useful dive guide and the editorial requirements of WikiVoyage. You didn't wipe my work out without reasonable explanation, threaten me with a userban, and tell me if I didn't like it that was my problem. I will work to make a useful guide to Diving the Wreck of the Brianna H without upsetting people. It should be a good project and I hope other divers will make further contributions. I hope to continue making my modest donation to the Wiki project, not for authoring, but because we all depend on access to good Wiki projects. Best Wishes Johnmartindavies 22:43, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Best wishes to you, and thanks for being helpful and cooperative. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:03, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Colonial hot chocolate

Hello. I was thinking of the Italian-descended people in Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil etc, but got confused between individual colonists and colonialist government, which as you've pointed out, Italy didn't have in any shape or form in South America. Grazie, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 02:52, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

I wondered about that. Yeah, there are lots of people of Italian descent in Argentina. If that affected preferences in Italy, that's worth mentioning, but I feel sure it happened overwhelmingly after independence. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:53, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Well Argentina was of course a rather rich place and a desirable destination for emigration until at lest the 1950s, so there may have been some cross-pollination, but I am not sure Argentina has any cacao culture above and beyond what Europeans brought there. Most of the country is too cold for cacao cultivation, isn't it? Now Argentine beef on the other hand... Hobbitschuster (talk) 09:02, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Italian influence is very strong in Buenos Aires - many BA taxi drivers dont understand if you dont add the italian enunciation to places you want to go to JarrahTree (talk) 09:27, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Some guidance

Ikan:

I'm sorry to keep pestering you, but you've had your own run-ins with this user in the past, so you seemed like the one to bring this up to.

I've had my eye on User:Downspec for a while, and I'm at my wit's end here. Just as examples, this is about the umpteenth time he's added a pagebanner that doesn't have a 7:1 aspect ratio; this is the umpteenth time he's copypasted promotional text from a business's official website, this is the umpteenth time he's added Columbus (Wisconsin) to Southwest Wisconsin#Cities in violation of the 7+2 rule, and now he's taken to creating his own subregion articles, completely ignoring the region breakdown hierarchy and then edit warring about it.

Now I'm all for not biting newbies, and I'm all for assuming good faith when we're dealing with violations of fairly arcane and wonkish rules. But, it should be emphasized, these are things that he's been repeatedly counseled about both on his talk page and in numerous edit summaries (too many to link to, but check out the revision history of Columbus (Wisconsin) and Southwest Wisconsin). His pattern of behavior is to respond on his talk page that he understands what's being told to him and will keep policy in mind from now on, and then continue to do the exact same thing as before, as if the talk page conversation never happened.

It seems clear to me that this is more than just a case of a bull-in-a-china-shop newbie who needs a bit of cleaning up after. But, on the other hand, I'm aware that I've had my problems recently with going rough on new users who make mistakes (though I continue to think I was more right than wrong in that case) and I think it would be better to bounce this issue off another user like yourself before taking it to Wikivoyage:User ban nominations or otherwise escalating the situation. What do you think should be done?

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:27, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Andrew. Your first link didn't go to the right place, but the other links are clear enough, and so was the note you posted to his user talk page. I'd be willing to give him one more chance, but I think it would be fair to warn him that now that policies have been seemingly made amply clear to him, the next step if he continues violating them is to nominate him for a user ban. I will post the warning if you think that might help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:42, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Ikan. Hopefully the note you most recently left on his talk page is strong enough medicine, but I'll continue to keep my eye on the situation. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 13:18, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

I'll keep it in mind, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:47, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Check out the three most recent edits to Southwest Wisconsin. This user has been on his best behavior for a while now, so I'm hesitant to call this an escalation, but it perhaps merits further vigilance. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:52, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps an attempt to catch us napping. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:21, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Bengkulu

Hi Ikan Kekek!

I'm just recovering my email and I notice you left a message on my old account User:Alvintd. For some reasons, I will continue to use this account instead. I really wish to contribute more in the future, as I'm getting myself familiar with the system and visit more places. Regarding Bengkulu, there were several settlements (other sources say they were small kingdoms instead) under the patronage of leader called "datuk". Unfortunately, nobody really knows the history concerning those settlements - they didn't leave any kind of artifact, although their story has always been passed and recounted for generations. I hope it answer your question. Looking forward to other contributions together in the time to come. Best of luck! Vineasca (talk) 15:09, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Of course I'm familiar with the title of "Datuk". I guess this information could be added. And thank you for all of your contributions! Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Vineasca, did there use to be a somewhat lengthy and interesting "History? subsection in the Bengkulu article, or am I misremembering? If there were a history section with content in it, I would add some kind of paraphrase of the information you shared above. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:59, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Ikan Kekek, I don't think there were any historical information in the article, apart from the short summary on the preface. I believe "History" subsection will be a very nice addition to the article Vineasca (talk) 10:06, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe I was remembering the Wikipedia article. I don't personally know much about Bengkulu, other than what I learned in Darjah 5-6 in Sekolah Kebangsaan in Malaysia in the 70s and what little I've read since. I thought I remembered the name "Bangkahulu" being used in our textbook. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:08, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

That could be it! I feel quite excited reading your comment, Ikan Kekek, since most Indonesians have no idea where Bengkulu is! Some mistaking it for Bangka or Belitong, some don't even try and guess it's a city in Celebes. Bangkahulu i.e. Muara Bangkahulu is a district in northern part of the city, perhaps it also has got something to do with the current name.Vineasca (talk) 13:51, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

That's interesting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:38, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Angkor Wat

I have plans to visit Angkor Wat later this month. The Wikivoyage page was very helpful. Thanks and cheers.- Chandan Guha (talk) 04:41, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

That's good to hear. Have a good time! I have yet to visit Cambodia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:16, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Rio Grande Valley

So after months of editing the Brownsville (Texas) page, I have finally moved on to edit the Rio Grande Valley page. This is very different from Brownsville, since it is not a city, but a region. I do not know the guidelines or templates that regions on Wikivoyage abide by. Any tips on this? Thanks. De88 (talk) 23:50, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Great! Have a look at Wikivoyage:Region article template, and then if you have more questions, ask in that article's talk page or here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:22, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

As I've started editing the article, I noticed that the "By car" section in the "Get in" and "Get around" sections would be the same. I say this because when I first edited the Brownsville page, I included all the highways leading to the city in the "Get in" section but only mentioned car rental agencies in the "Get around" section. How can I differentiate both sections? Thanks in advance and I hope you had a great Christmas! De88 (talk) 08:01, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I indeed had a good day and ate entirely too much of the chicken my girlfriend made. I hope you had a good day, too.

Just a brainstorm: Even if the highways are the same in both sections, I think in the "Get in" section, you would concentrate on which highways to take from Cities A, B and C outside the area into the region, while in the "Get around" section, you would mention which roads go from City X to City Y, City Y to City Z and so on, within the region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:15, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you so much for this. Really helps. My parents made brisket and I've been eating it as a sandwich. Weird combination, but it is so good. Also, many thanks for all the help you've given me since contributing on here. Your help does not go unnoticed. De88 (talk) 08:43, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

You're welcome. It's always a pleasure when a new user shows up and makes an impact! Brisket sandwiches are nothing strange to a New York Jew like me. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:48, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

It's really nice to know that I've made some sort of impact on here. I do wonder, there is this other travel guide website called "Wikitravel", what is its connection to "Wikivoyage"? I actually hated brisket but I somehow ended up loving it. I think it's just the Texan in me. De88 (talk) 20:41, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

WV:Wikivoyage and Wikitravel will give you a good overview of that history. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:04, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I always wondered how both sites worked together. I say this because both sites have the same info on most articles. Also, I am not sure about this but locals in the area usually capitalize the words "Mexican Nationals". I do not know if they are correct or if it is indeed "Mexican nationals". De88 (talk) 01:01, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

If that's local usage, I won't be a stick-in-the-mud about it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:56, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Brianna H.

       Hello Ikan

I've started re-developing the guide to diving the Brianna H.

I've inserted a paragraph that should not be neccessary for the article, but for the education of editors who are not currently diving.

"When divers are introduced to a new wreck they generally like to know as much as possible about the unfortunate ship before it sank, the circumstances leading up to the sinking, and about any casualties so as to accord them proper respect. It can be quite disturbing to unexpectedly encounter a human skull on a wreck, as happened to a friend of mine because of inadequate information. Thus any documented information should be as complete as possible, not truncated for the benefit of editors not currently diving. Furthermore a Dive Guide carries a greater risk of Safety considerations and litigation than a pleasant stroll around Provincetown, Massechusetts."

I've added this advice because my introduction to the Brianna H, based on divers preferences was mutilated by the Wikivoyage Editor.

I would not expect to use this paragraph in a definitive version but as a temporary development. Can you kindly try and explain this point to any colleague who finds it too demanding.

I will make the rest of the guide more focussed but also informative to divers. Best Wishes for Christmas. Johnmartindavies 20:53, 23 December 2016 (UTC). Johnmartindavies 21:48, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Johnmartindavies, thanks for contacting me, and Merry Christmas to you.

Your points are definitely well taken, but I'll have a look at how much information you included, to see whether I think it might be better to refer readers somewhere else (Wikipedia?) for more exhaustive background. However, there is a problem with your phrasing. Wikivoyage does not permit the use of first person pronouns or blog-like language, so please edit accordingly.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:58, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Roseau

Hi Ikan Kekek,

I was updating Roseau on wikitravel and wikivoyage because both were virtually identical and both had much wrong or outdated information. Instead of clicking "add listing" should I type in the information manually using the format given in Template:Listing?

Also, if an edit is mine; is it alright if it appears on both wikivoyage and wikitravel?

Anax44 (talk) 02:42, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

You're within your rights under copyright/copyleft laws, if you clearly state it as such in your edit summary, but it's still problematic if it's phrased the same way on both sites, because Google imposes a penalty in search results for copying. But yeah, you need to use the listing template formats. Look at WV:Listings. There are somewhat different templates for different kinds of listings. But if you use the wrong template, someone else can always fix that.

All the best, and Merry Christmas or Happy Chanukah if you celebrate either or both holidays,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:29, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

No problem. I could keep the phrasing different without changing the context of the content.

Thanks a lot and Happy Holidays to you too.

Anax44 (talk) 02:45, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks so much for understanding and being so constructive and helpful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:58, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

No booking agencies please

This is about Caledonian Way After your explanations, I said: I accept that but I do NOT agree. Do you understand this? Well, I have included a link to a Spanish side as well but you reverted. Well, I think the best think you can do it's use the English link don't you? —The preceding comment was added by Edinside (talk • contribs)

I'm honestly not sure I understand you, no. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:15, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you...

Thank you so much Ikan Kekek for granting me autopatrolled rights )) But what do they actually mean on English Wikivoyage? I really didn't know that here you have sth. like this, because in the revision history of articles, there are no marked and unmarked versions displayed, unlike in Russian wikipedia for example. --A.Savin (talk) 18:15, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

All it actually means is that when people are patrolling new edits, yours wont come up with an "!" Basically, it means that admins don't think your work needs close supervision. And thanks for editing here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:55, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your response on my talk page

I cancelled my question on the main page because on re-reading the instructions for that page, it became apparent that the Munich talk page was a better place to post the question - which I have done. Thanks for the response. Haven't yet figured out how to / what the right ettiquette is for responding to entries on the talk page - which is why I'm posting here. --Kenneth Stephen (talk) 17:20, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

You should feel free to reply to messages posted on your talk page by simply posting below the message. Some people might want you to ping them by including a link to their name, like so (without the "nowiki" code): [[User:Kenneth Stephen|Kenneth Stephen]]. However, that's unnecessary for me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:26, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

PDF download

Ciao Ikan

Thank you for your continued support.

I was wondering whether it might be worth a discussion for the future of WikiVoyage to also add maps from the GPS points of a place to the beginning or end of an article when downloading it as PDF, like Lonely Planet and others are doing(?)

I know it is possible to download the GPS marker file, however, I believe, not many people are firm with this kind of thing. At the same time, could it be meaningful to have a more direct download icon to each articel. I believe many people have problems finding the PDF link on the left side and might just print out each page, which add a lot of burden on the environment.

Cheers Ceever (talk) 17:39, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Ceever. This strikes me as a good thought; however, I'm not a technical expert. I'd suggest bringing this up at the Travellers' pub and asking if there's interest in doing this, what page would be the best place to work out planning and implementation for it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Templates vs. tags

Re: this edit, it looks like we need to update the boilerplate text at Template:Style, because that was a direct copy and paste on my part. I'd do it myself, but I'm editing via mobile on my break at work, and I'll probably have forgotten all about this by the time I get home. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

I see. I'll take care of it. thanks, Andrew. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:44, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:46, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Outports

I see you changed "outport" to "outpost" here. "Outport" is correct. An outport is a small coastal fishing village. These were very common in Newfoundland and Labrador, where they were built in often far out-of-the-way locations to support a subsistence fishery. Outside St. John's (and maybe Corner Brook) cities are rare in Newfoundland and most communities along the coastline are tiny outports. K7L (talk) 13:03, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I wasn't completely sure about that edit, but I had never heard of an "outport" and get a wavy error for it on my computer (which admittedly is true for many other words), so I plunged forward. Thanks for correcting this and letting me know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:54, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps the concept is regional, w:Newfoundland outport. Firefox's spell check extension doesn't like it in any language: English (en-gb), Canadian eh? (en-ca), American (en-us) but certainly it exists in Canada. K7L (talk) 17:50, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Firefox's dictionary is very limited. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:08, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Berlin

Hi Ikan, I substituted the rated image File:Berlin Museumsinsel Fernsehturm.jpg with the image File:Bode Museum.jpg on the page Berlin, because the photographer of the first image aggressively sues people who make mistakes with the license. See [36] [37] [38] [39]. --Sebastian Wallroth (talk) 18:46, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of this. He surely won't try to sue Wikivoyage, but I can understand why you'd want to substitute another image and thereby deny him publicity. Here are all the Quality Images of the Bode-Museum. The one you chose also looks like a likely QI if nominated, but I figure, why not take one that's already a QI? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:00, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

'I've always seen "checkpoint" as one word' (Nablus)

Don't think I am doing this intentionally. Most of the work is just reshuffling content, to have a more readable structure, so it has been there before. ;-) Ceever (talk) 13:45, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm neither assuming that you're responsible for everything I'm seeing and editing, nor that it's intentional. Don't worry, and thanks for all your work! Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:33, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Al Ruwais Confusion

Mr.Ikan

regarding the list addition for Anantara Sir Bani Yas resort.

There are two Al Ruwais in middle east . one in Qatar also called (Ar Ru'ays) and one in Abu dhabi. There is no page for Abu Dhabi version. That's why I added it to abu dhabi section. Shall I create a page for Sir Bani Yas island and add the listing.?

BTW Thanks for the tips. —The preceding comment was added by User:BradSmith2017 (talk • contribs)

Hello BradSmith2017, and thanks for writing. Sorry for being confused, myself. If there's enough to see, do, eat and so forth in Sir Bani Yas Island for it to sustain its own article, by all means start one, presumably using the WV:Small city article template. But first, please look at WV:What is an article and consider whether the island meets any of the tests there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:36, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

a helping hand

how can I help? --Garvysolaz (talk) 21:47, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Welcome! I'll post to your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:53, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

thank you. --Garvysolaz (talk) 21:54, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your mediation at Talk:Gaspé Peninsula. We've worked out our problems now. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 16:43, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I followed that. User:AndreCarrotflower is one of the very best content providers and writers on the site, and I also greatly appreciate and value your work. Thanks for working for the benefit of the site, the reader and the traveler. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:45, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Outline articles

Hi there. Sorry for the Sabbath/Shabbat mistake ... search and replace issue.

Anyhow, I noticed for many Israel articles they are flagged as outline ... which I quite do not understand because they are quite complete and even some remote regions like Ceasarea just do not allow much more information. So, who actually decides what is an outline and what not? Can we remove some of the outline flags for some articles?

Thanks Ceever (talk) 08:54, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

On Sabbath/Shabbat, that was obviously an unintentional error, and we all make those sometimes.

On your other question: Anyone can unilaterally change the status of an article, except for making an article a Star or destarring it, both of which have to be discussed. For regions, an issue is that the cities linked to those articles (or at least the most important ones, however we're defining that) have to be at least Usable for the region article to be Usable, but just follow the guidelines at WV:Article status and more specifically at Wikivoyage:City guide status, Wikivoyage:Region guide status, Wikivoyage:Park guide status, etc., and plunge forward! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:11, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

In general a city can be promoted to "usable" as soon as it has a sleep and eat listing (which preferably should be more than a name and a weblink) as well as reasonable content in see and/or do and a workable description in "get in" (even if it is just "take the route xyz from city A" - if that's all there is to say, fine). Region articles, as mentioned, are a bit more complex. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:43, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Hobbitschuster is right, provided that at least one "Sleep" and one "Eat" listing include contact information. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:33, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Pronouns

Sihanoukville , Hi I have removed pronouns Thanks StekirStekira (talk) 04:56, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:12, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Naeinsun

your welcome bro. i have not learned how to communicate with other users. i would like to play an active roll to improve the pages in my region. i'll appreciate any help. —The preceding comment was added by Naeinsun (talk • contribs)

I will help with copy editing, which is all I can do since I have yet to have the pleasure of visiting Iran. Just a small thing: On Wikis like this, we "sign" our posts on talk pages (only, not destination articles) by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of each post. Anyway, thanks again, and please keep going. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:39, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Bali article should be updated

China tourists growth is awesome. Due to severe oversupply of hotel in Bali, so you can get 4 stars hotel between $18 to $25 in Kuta, Legian and Seminyak whenever you want, except in Ied holiday season and it makes relatively no long peak seasons anymore. China tourists prefer beaches and attractions. All tourists prefer in culture is only 22 percent. If Bali article is not updated, it will mislead the readers and not inline with the 'right quality' of the star article. I don't know who responsible of the misleading. I guess you are not the person also. I always worry about it. Star article, but mislead. If someone know well aboput situations, maybe will booking hotel in last minutes deals. I hope someone who know well about Bali can make the star article more accurate.Gsarwa (talk) 17:39, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Kawan, you really like to be helpful, but in my opinion, you have not improved your standard of English noticeably at all since you've started editing here. You might do some work on that, because when you post things that require extensive edits for basic grammar, spelling and phrasing, it's a lot of work. If you want to do the work, there are plenty of English as a Second or Foreign Language sites online. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:45, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I try to improve my writing, and I hope it will make you (midget=sangat sedikit) satisfy. Please edit, if neccessary or reverted it and I don't mind about it. Thank You.Gsarwa (talk) 02:49, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Satisfy me or make me satisfied. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:48, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

How, if I write in command style, rather than in narrative style. Please your suggestion. Thanks a lot in advance.Gsarwa (talk) 05:02, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Which part? "Please edit, or if necessary, revert it, and I won't mind"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:11, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

I mean when I write for another articles. Sorry, maybe it should be in another section. If command style is sufficient, certainly I will write more in command style rather than narrative style. Maybe narrative style is more conviniences to read, but command style with short sentence should clear, and not use 'kata berbunga-bunga' such as rudimentary instead of very bad.Gsarwa (talk) 06:08, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Most of the content in Wikivoyage articles should be a narrative. That's not the issue. The issue is that your writing has all kinds of mistakes in it, regardless of what tone you're trying to use. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:18, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Ok, thank you so much fellow/kawan, I understand. I'll try to be a 'narrative writer' as I can, but to combine several sentences to a long sentence, moreover if there are 'anak kalimat dan anak kalimat lagi' (complex sentence) maybe I should try harder.Gsarwa (talk) 07:01, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. Lagi baik mudah dan pendek selalu. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:24, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Hi, I noticed that you posted some information relating to Paramakatoi. Most of it is accurate but I think your tour guide was hiding all the shops in Paramakatoi which sell beer from you. Hope you don't mind me making a few changes to your details. Pk Girl (talk) 01:52, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't think I posted information, as I don't know even where that place is. I presumably would have done some copy editing. Please correct and update at will! Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:00, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

animal ethics

Not sure about Special:Diff/3155095/3155430; hunting and recreational shooting currently point to the same page (the former being a redirect) so there might not be much point in linking both at the moment. There was a Wikivoyage:Requested articles proposal to create hunting as its own topic but nothing's been done with that idea. K7L (talk) 06:26, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

My mistake. I will edit out the link. Thanks for pointing out the error. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Should we, though? I mean create hunting as its own topic? Not all hunting is done with firearms, after all (though some forms of non-firearm hunting are even more controversial and sometimes illegal than those that do employ firearms) Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:51, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

There's no article on hunting? There's no reason why there shouldn't be one. It's not something I do, so I wouldn't be able to help much, but if you'd like to start such an article, go ahead. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:13, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Yet another testament to the fact that our authorship demographics skew urban... Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:04, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I also don't take part in hunting, but I felt Animal Ethics had potential to be too judgemental by the 'urban elites'. Hard to say where the line should be drawn, since a mid-Westerner hunting for Elk for their fridge is understandable whereas a dentist shooting a rare Lion for egotistical reasons less so. I would personally feel that anyone travelling for hunting is on morally shaky ground (although travel for fishing is actually quite understandable). Sorry for rambling! Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:48, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Depends how far they're traveling. Driving a couple of hours seems legitimate to me. Also, Hobbitschuster, you already knew I live in New York City, right? But I was a village kid in Malaysia for 2 years, where I gathered a lot of wild plants, dug for clams and went fishing. However, I did not hunt. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:02, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I know. I actually grew up in a suburb and was a Boy Scout in my youth, but I am as distant from agriculture and hunting as can be. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:09, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I was unsuccessful in my attempt to grow a watermelon - all my classmates' watermelon plants were healthy, whereas mine somehow shrivelled up in the sun and died. However, I was successful in raising chickens. So I think I was pretty close to agriculture. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:15, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Dead Sea (Israel and the West Bank) - a region not a city?

Hi there, should I convert the Dead Sea (Israel and the West Bank) into a region? The southern part is also mentioned in the Israel article as a region. Also it feels a little strange having Ein Gedi as part of Negev instead of the Dead Sea. Ceever (talk) 12:30, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I guess the issue with that is that part of the region is outside of Israel proper. That would make it an extra-hierarchical region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:37, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Ok, did that. But now at the bottom of Ein Gedi a weird sign appears. Does it mean I cannot declare Ein Gedi as part of the Dead Sea? Ceever (talk)

It doesn't work in Wikivoyage's system of WV:Breadcrumb navigation to put a place only in an extra-hierarchical region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Puerto Rico

I was trying to prevent the Telstra person making that edit to Puerto Rico. Please see their rabid attempts here.

I could somewhat understand accepting useful edits from a banned user, but this edit is so obvious and so useless I really saw no downside in reverting it. I guess this is a difference of opinion. Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:28, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

If you feel strongly about it, revert again and I won't complain. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:33, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion/March 2017

Dear IK, I was surprised to see many old deletion nomination entries on VfD page so I closed several. I believe I haven't made any mistake but I would appreciate if you could give a quick glance at the closure nominations. Thank you. --Saqib (talk) 11:30, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Saqib. It looks OK to me, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:34, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for quick reply. I hope life is going good for you. --Saqib (talk) 11:37, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Well, the socio-political situation here is dangerous and scary, but for now, I'm OK. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:51, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	For your unflagging vigilance in the neverending struggle against Extremely Annoying Unnecessary Capitalization. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:46, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Well deserved. IK is a great Wikivoyage! "Thanks for all your hard work it is much appreciated..." --Saqib (talk) 18:51, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, guys. It seems like a thankless, tedious job a lot of the time, so some appreciation helps. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:29, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

I can only add to that, that your contributions are always valuable and thought through even in the rare instances I disagree with you. Fixing capitalization is a particularly tedious job, but if we want to be the best most complete travel guide, such "minor" issues are not, in fact, minor. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:32, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

No, as the song says, the little things mean a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:35, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

And thanks for the nice words. Your efforts are appreciated, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:36, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Problem users...

They didn't take the hint.

https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Fitzgeraldhc https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Cgr811

Amusing as it is, I don't see them doing anything else. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 18:25, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Well they seem to be unaware of anything, regardless I left them a message. Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:43, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

At least that was quick. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:25, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Speedy Fixes

I was looking for my error and couldn't find it. Now I now why. Your attentiveness is appreciated but I am hesitant to do any more editing for fear of making a mistake and not finding it quickly enough to suit. Bobdog54 (talk) 23:35, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Please don't hesitate! Everyone makes mistakes. Sorry if you took my edit summary the wrong way. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:50, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you.

Hello Ikan, just a short note to thank you for your welcoming message and helpful links. JonzJoy (talk) 02:58, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

You're most welcome. Glad to have you here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:26, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Costa Adeje

Cheers, but I created the Costa Adeje page with content from Los Cristianos here on Wikivoyage not Wikitravel.--Darrelljon (talk) 16:24, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

I see. Well, the first search result I got when plugging in your phrasings was Wikitravel:Los Cristianos and not the Wikivoyage article, which is in poor shape and contains badly-formatted, somewhat touty-sounding text, most of which is unchanged since the time when there was no Wikivoyage in 2012. And in any case, it's not useful for two Wikivoyage articles to have so much identical phrasing, and the other remarks I made about Wikivoyage policy and style relate to the content of Los Cristianos, too. If you're willing to devote the time, my suggestion would be to overhaul Los Cristianos to put it in line with Wikivoyage policy and style and then restart a separate Costa Adeje page if there's sufficient different content to put into it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:00, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Help on Deletion policy

Hi Ikan. Thank you for your guidance. I find two stubs, which is about a particular attraction. As per Wikivoyage policy. It is not for the specific attraction. So, If we need to delete. Should I use VFG or SPEEDY. I saw your comment to use Redirect. Will it be ok if redirected? Sulthan90 (talk) 05:20, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Redirection is fine and doesn't require a post at vfd, though it should be discussed at the redirection candidate's talk page, if you think the proposal to redirect might be controversial. I think it probably makes sense to turn Basara into a redirect, and no-one will complain if you do, but where do you propose to redirect it to? As for Mwasalat, if you're concerned that it's a private company (is it?) and that its search term should be simply deleted, nominate the article for deletion at vfd, but I think that there is useful information to summarize and put in the Oman article, where I suggest redirecting the article after all useful content is gleaned from it. Also note that there are precedents for turning the names of private companies, such as airlines, into redirects, rather than deleting the former articles about them outright. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:25, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for detailed explanation. Mwasalat is Govt. owned Bus company of Oman. I will make Redirect towards Concern pages after Extracting information into that concern pages. Sulthan90 (talk) 06:28, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Excellent. Thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:54, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Hello

Hi I am trying to get active again here. Could you please watch over my edits and let me know if I am doing ok? I've been a little out of touch! Ravikiran (talk) 09:48, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

OK, sure, though I see no reason to be concerned about any edit you'd make. Glad to see you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:25, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

An impasse

Hi Ikan. Hobbitschuster and I seem to be at loggerheads on the issue of Kassel vs. Wernigerode for OtBP next month. I know you're busy with offwiki stuff lately, but when you get a free minute, it would be very helpful if you could look over this discussion in the Pub and give your two cents.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:08, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Done, but your last argument was so strong that it would seem hard to argue effectively against it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:07, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Anglos not eating fish & chips

That's the point. It's only a commonly eaten food among English Anglos. Similarly, spicy food is not really common in - say - Venezuela. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:14, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

But it's not too common in the U.S., thereby defeating your point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:18, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Well it also an attempt to approach the situation with some levity. But I guess you're right... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:24, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Bamboo Bar

Dear Ikan,

I am unaware of the history with this listing. I am trying to add Bamboo as I feel it is an important place. One of few 24/7 bars here in Cambodia, Sihanoukville. But each time I do I get a message from you that you removed it.

Could you tell me how to get this listing up? And what the cause of the blacklisting is? I don't understand these past problems.

Any help would be appreciated.

Interpidexplorer (talk) 06:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Please start a discussion at Talk:Sihanoukville. We need a consensus to list this place; it's not just up to me. But I would recommend for you to read the prior discussion on that talk page and also for you to review the article's history. It's also important to read Wikivoyage:Don't tout, as even people who are merely enthusiastic customers need to conform to those policy guidelines. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:45, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

South Asia Image

Hello Ikan,

I am undoing your edits and please find the explanation below. Technically, there is no reference for the current map and thus brings in the question about its correctness.

You seem to be unaware of the geographical boundaries of countries in South Asia. Please see the map of India and the recent rule that the Government of India passed. There is a 10 Billion Rupees fine and 7 year jail term if the map is wrongly depicted of India, especially when the website is accessed in India. Do you guarantee that the map/page when seen from Indian IP address shows the map of India as ordered by the government of India? You have to know about these things before arguing about the correctness of the current map. There is no source claiming the current map to be correct. —The preceding comment was added by Wikigura (talk • contribs)

First of all, please sign your posts here by typing 4 tildes (~) at the end of messages on talk pages. Secondly, please read welcome, Wikipedians. This is Wikivoyage, not Wikipedia. No reference is required here. And the laws of India are no more in force when decreeing what the de facto boundaries are than the laws of Pakistan or China, the two other countries that in fact, regardless of any fines in India, occupy parts of Kashmir. You will not win this argument on this site, and if you continue edit warring, it will become necessary to block your account. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:49, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Jamaica

Hi, I am a native that has been editing the Wikivoyage article that others had ambiguously screwed up. BulbAtop (talk) 21:46, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Much appreciated. Just please give reasons for non-obvious edits by typing them into your edit summary (the "Summary" bar below your edit screen), or if they're too long to put there, note them at Talk:Jamaica. Please carry on!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:54, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Dubai/Jumeirah is large

Dear Ikan, Regarding the edit summary "Copy editing. Cover the interest of the marina as a whole elsewhere (probably in "See"?)." of you edit 3198098. Actually, I was thinking that Dubai/Jumeirah is large compared to other Dubai districts, in both items and surface: one suggestion can be to split in two areas, as there is few interesting things between Dubai Water Canal and Burj al-Arba / Mall of the Emirates (empty area, mainly residential?). Regards, --Jeanot (talk) 10:27, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Jeanot. I actually don't know much about Dubai, having merely landed and changed planes at Dubai Airport twice. All I was reacting to was discussing the area in a listing for a mall, rather than in "See" or some other more general section ("Understand"?). Please make your proposal at Talk:Dubai, where others who know Dubai can give their opinions. Thanks a lot for caring enough to help make this guide as good as possible for travelers!

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:02, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Bureaucrat

I hadn't realized Ryan had resigned his bureaucratship, but since he has that leaves only me as an active 'crat on Wikivoyage. Would you be willing to let me nominate you for the job? We could really use two, just in case. The job is not hard; you just have to flip an admin bit once in a blue moon. Powers ^(talk) 00:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Are there any other powers, duties or expectation I should know about? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:29, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

No, the only additional permissions bureaucrats get are status flipping. We can make a user a bureaucrat, and we can add and remove administrator and bot flags. That's literally it. See Wikivoyage:Bureaucrats and meta:Bureaucrats. I don't think I've taken a 'crat action since the last successful admin nomination, which was months ago. All we need is someone whom the community trusts not to go rogue. =) Powers ^(talk) 14:44, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

I see two other responsibilities, which I might lean on you for or need further instruction on if they come up:

• Perform a username change on request by the user (see Wikivoyage:Changing username)
• Assign bot status to script owners

That said, I'm fine with this. Go ahead and nominate me, and thanks for the confidence, which I of course will not abuse. If my username starts granting Admin status willy-nilly, someone would have hacked my account. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:12, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, hacking is a concern. We would need to trust you to keep your login secure, to the extent practical of course.

The username change is a legacy item that no longer applies, as you can see at Wikivoyage:Changing username. Bot status is just a checkbox on the user permissions page, nothing weird there.

-- Powers ^(talk) 17:04, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

To date (knock on wood or whatever), my accounts have never been hacked on any site. How do you go about determining that it's safe to assign a bot? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:49, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Bots have to be approved by the community, just like admins do. All a bureaucrat does is flip the switch when the community says it's okay. Powers ^(talk) 23:35, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Maybe it's been so long since a new bot was approved that I forgot the procedure. I guess there's a separate bot nominations board? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:40, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Script nominations. K7L (talk) 11:40, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, K7L. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:21, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the inexcusable delay in granting your bureaucrat privileges. Consider it an apt illustration of why I felt it was necessary to have a second active bureaucrat. You now have the key to the mop-and-broom closet and can distribute them as necessary. I recommend starting with the two active admin nominations. =) Powers ^(talk) 20:36, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, and as far as I'm concerned, no need whatsoever for any apology. I will get on it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:46, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Congratulations on your successful RfB! Jianhui67 (talk) 12:54, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Jianhui67. Nice to see you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:58, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks!

I appreciated the welcome message and the useful articles for beginners Ikan Kekek! --Labraun90 (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

You're most welcome! By the way, to credit Wikipedia, it's sufficient to write something like "Added text from [name of article]" in your edit summary, which you can type in the "Summary" box under your edit screen. But your impulse was correct: Text copied, paraphrased or summarized from Wikipedia does need to be cited. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:23, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Inconsequential follow-up edits

I wonder if you had ever considered the potential consequences of your apparent tendency to jump on new edits to make small 'corrections' or inconsequential follow-up edits? Noting such actions after some of my edits I had a look at your edit history, and you do this very, very often. As a wiki it is accepted that articles are in constant flux, but you frequently make minor edits immediately after others and irrespective of the overall value to the articles. It is almost as if you enjoy grading people's contributions and have a desire to 'have the last word'. Nevertheless, whatever your motivations such actions are unwelcoming to people and do not encourage ongoing contributions. —The preceding comment was added by 45.116.180.246 (talk • contribs)

Minor corrections to bring contributions in line with site standards should be seen as welcoming, not off-putting. It means your contribution was valuable and deserves to look its best. Powers ^(talk) 15:30, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. Why would you be insulted by small touch-ups to your contributions of content? And because this IP has no other contributions than this post, I have no idea specifically what you're referring to, but anyone who participates on Wikis needs not to project the kinds of insecurities about "grading" or "having the last word" that you did above. No-one is graded on Wikis, and no-one has the last word. And the answer is, I'm concerned about the effects of minor edits only in the cases of people who've already been disturbed by them. My hope is that everyone else would understand what a Wiki is and feel fine about it, just as I feel happy when people do followup edits on my contributions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:29, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Oxford (Pennsylvania)

Hi Ikan, sorry for redirecting the article without discussing it. I only saw the history page and noticed that there were no substantive edits made over the last 5 years and decided to plunge forward without checking the talk page. It was a mistake on my part to not find out if there was consensus. Anyway, thanks for making the city usable now. Gizza ^(roam) 23:24, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Sure thing, and no problem. It was because of your redirect attempt that I was spurred into action, so it ended up as a net positive. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:25, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Gering

Routebox Question

Good evening, Ikan!

I thank you for helping me out with my article by clarifying some things that I made cloudy in my Gering article.

Now, I have built a route box, and I tried to follow the appropriate coding, but the Nebraska 71 image does not show up. May you guide me? 174.45.128.124 00:49, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Glad to help. I'm not too familiar with routebox format, but if you copy relevant code from the Omaha guide and edit it with an eye toward the instructions at Wikivoyage:Routebox navigation#Templates, that should work. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:58, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

About Health

Due to a shortage on time, I couldn't list it. But I will list it now. Ciao, 174.45.128.124 00:55, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Good, a listing for the local clinic could be helpful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:58, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Dubai edits

Dear Ikan, Regarding the edit summary "Detouted. Please note that English-language Wikivoyage does not use ALL CAPS except for acronyms like UNESCO. I know standards are different in French." of you edit 3206804. In Dubai Festival City's waterfront and elsewhere, they use IMAGINE: I was expecting it will be more easily to be recognised by travellers in ALL CAPS... Regards, --Jeanot (talk) 09:02, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

You could be right, but English-language Wikivoyage policy, as I understand it, is not to respect the wishes of companies that want use to use all caps for their names, unless perhaps their names are genuinely acronyms, such as in the case of ARAMCO (Arab-American Oil Company), and maybe not even then. This might be worth more discussion at Talk:Dubai/Deira, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:07, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

OK, got it. "Imagine" is visibly not an acronym. --Jeanot (talk) 09:17, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Right. But your point of view is valid and might be worth a discussion on Talk:Dubai/Deira. I'd take no position (supporting or opposing) in the discussion but would support your starting a discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:42, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Cheyenne Map Issues

Good morning, sorry to bother you. Recently, I have taken notice that even though all the GeoRef is in the proper place, and is all centralized, (besides terry bison ranch), the map is shifted to the south west, making it an inconvenience. I'm all ears on what have gone wrong, and I'll fix it. Have a nice Saturday, AUTO SIGNATURE: If you need help with anything, visit my talk page, or my very helpful Homepage. Signed, 174.45.128.124 14:37, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

The {{mapframe}} template controls (lat,long) and zoom for the on-page map. That's separate from the {{geo}} template at the end of the page. Apparently leaving these fields blank on the mapframe template will cause the position to be determined automatically to fit all the points of interest in the frame? K7L (talk) 19:14, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

K7L, thanks for fielding this question. I don't really know much of anything about map-making on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:29, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Hello, everybody! If you'd like to discuss anything with me, please post new topics at the bottom of the page and sign the posts with 4 tildes (the ~ key) in a row. Thanks!

Oxford: Addition of an app

Hi Ikan, Thanks for editing my entry (listing an app). New to the system, I subsequently learnt that tracking to urls is not permitted. This has been removed. However, the entry is still as useful and provides the same facility as links to books - its just that these are a new source of reference. TravelExpertApps (talk) 10:56, 29 May 2017 (UTC)Matt N.

It may be OK to list it, but let's have a discussion at Talk:Oxford and see if a consensus can develop to support a listing. I am willing to support whatever a consensus agrees to, but I don't think the app should be listed until or unless a consensus agrees.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:00, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Sounds good. Thanks Ikan.Matt Nicholson (talk) 11:10, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Ballardvale

ሄሎ Ikan, እኔ wikivoyage ወደ ባላርድ ሸለቆ ለማከል የ እርዳታ ያስፈልገናል. እኔ wikivoyage ሁሉ መንደሮች መጨመር እፈልጋለሁ. ቀደም ብዬ እንደ እኔ, ይህንን አርትዕ እርዳታ እባክህ. ባይ. —The preceding comment was added by Senpi (talk • contribs)

That explains everything! User:Senpi (and please sign your talk page posts with 4 tildes [~]), are you a troll, or did you make a mistake? Either way, I'm not going to use Google Translate to try to understand an English Wikivoyage talk page post in what, Amharic? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:06, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Just trickin' you, I am from Ethiopia, I don't live there. 12-year-olds (me) have strange senses of humor.

Senpi (talk) 13:18, 7 June 2017 (UTC)User:Senpi

I could reply in Malay...Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:26, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Wikimedia blog post?

Hi Ikan,

I work with the Wikimedia Foundation on their official blog. When I'm not working, I edit on the English Wikipedia as The ed17.

I'm writing today to see if you'd like to write a "Why I" post for the blog. It's an irregular series that aims to bring out the voices of content creators like you. I'm hoping that you will be willing to write a few hundred words on why you edit Wikivoyage, a project we don't feature enough on the blog.

What do you think? Thank you for your time. Ed Erhart (WMF) (talk) 18:15, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for asking, Ed Erhart (WMF). I'll think about it. When would I have to let you know? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:07, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

There's no particular hurry—say next week sometime? Ed Erhart (WMF) (talk) 19:15, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Alright. I'll be honest, though: Editing here is a hobby of mine. It has some practical use when I travel, which is usually 2-4 weeks per year, but when I edit here, for the most part, I would probably benefit more tangibly from doing something else I'm procrastinating on. So while I'm very good at recent changes patrol, I'm not so sure I'm the best person to make a statement about why I edit here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I may be able to write about my life-long fascination with the world and my position in relation to all other parts of it, though. Part of me would almost always rather be somewhere else, even though I have real roots, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:41, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Your edit comment at Cheyenne

Okay, you got me, I was a little harsh, and you tested me on your change. Well, here's the facts:

1. You could have erased my listing because it had grammar problems, but you just repaired the error, and it was still there.
2. You made a minor edit and it wasn't persecution.
3. I do thank you for the edit, and I wouldn't look on it wrong.

Funny how you can put the wrong words out and choke on it, and someone will make an example of you. Well, I apologise for not choosing the right stuff when writing ProjectPage:2018 Miniature Revitilization Project Style 174.45.128.124 23:10, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

The thing is, you've had a lot of latitude, yet you've spoken of persecution. It's pretty perplexing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:00, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

What do you mean by latitude? Now that's perplexing. 174.45.128.124 18:37, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Let's put it this way: Your behavior on your user page has been pretty unusual. Best not to pursue this line of discussion too far. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

More languages in Babel

Hi Ikan, I can speak both basic Amharic and basic Tigrinya, but there is currently no Babel coverage for both of those languages. Please help me create one or the other.

Senpi (talk) 13:31, 7 June 2017 (UTC)User:Senpi

I don't know how to do that. Does Wikipedia have codes you could import? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:25, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

More problems with the Cheyenne IP editor

Have a look at this.

I'm at a loss with how to respond to this user's completely perplexing behavior. I'm not ready to call it vandalism or bad faith, but clearly we're seeing a progression into a more and more problematic pattern. What do you think should be done? I certainly have no clue.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:48, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm kind of at a loss, too. Very strange. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:29, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

I hate to harp on this issue, but this has got to be the most annoying user I've come across in a long time. In addition to all of the above, every time I try to clean up the messes he leaves behind he makes a federal case out of it, no matter how carefully I try to explain policy to him (in both my edit summaries and the replies on my talk page), and now he's taken to personally attacking me on other users' talk pages. It's frustrating because none of these things by themselves are serious enough to put him in userban territory, yet the constant defensive nitpicking makes it a real chore to sweep up the broken china left on the shop floor by this bull.

Come to think of it, this reminds me very much of the problems we were having a while back with the editor on the Columbus (Wisconsin) article. Those two, along with a few others I've come across, seem to fall into a distinct subcategory of problem user for which policy doesn't prescribe a particular course of action: it's not vandalism, not trolling, not quite incivility; they're good-faith edits, but executed with a horrible incompetence that doesn't seem to respond at all to any efforts at educating the user on policy. Should I perhaps take my concerns to Wikivoyage talk:How to handle unwanted edits and try to come to some consensus on guidelines for how to deal with such users, or is there some other solution you can think of that would be justifiable through current policy (or at least unlikely to incur objections from other editors)?

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:14, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to lay out this case at Wikivoyage talk:How to handle unwanted edits and ask for others to please keep an eye on his(?) edits. More than that is not warranted at this point, and I could also suggest that if it gets too annoying to you to deal with him(?), you could avoid communicating with him for a while and let others deal with him. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:43, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

As a close wiki-companion, thought you should know

	Notice of account creation and page movement
	I, 174.45.128.124 have decided to create an account, User: Zanygenius please direct all posts to my new talk page. (Remember what I said about the password rememberance thing? Well, thank God for a notepad!) -Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page 04:56, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Moon

There is astronomy, so why not science?. Just think who is more probably to travel there, a hitchhiker or a scientist? hence why not do science, its disputable though.--167.57.182.228 23:30, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

I take it more serious that originally was, if you still think im joking you should take la look here wikipedia:Outer Space Treaty, legal murder is a mayor concern and it is a fact on the moon, so why not to include it?

better answer me her --Neurorebel (talk) 23:41, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

There are no people on the moon, so laws about what people can do on the moon don't seem relevant, but if you want to refer to them, please make it brief. This is not Wikipedia - please read Wikivoyage:About and welcome, Wikipedians (particularly the "Goals" section; you can also refer to goals and non-goals). And your "listing" for science is no such thing. "Do some science research before going" or some such is not a listing; it's just prose. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:14, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Itineraries

I thought all of that you mention but happens that im not the best capacitate for doing the task that you request away from may be the route to montevideo to San jose, surely more frequent travelers would not have problems at that task, also i thought how to add one if those maps and adjust the banner but neither i don't know how to do that (the seccond one without dl/upl).--Neurorebel (talk) 03:58, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

You could always ask for someone else to make a map, for example by posting the specifics of what you want in the map in the Travellers' pub, or you could look at Wikivoyage:How to draw static maps and Wikivoyage:How to use dynamic maps. Do what you can, but keep in mind that an itinerary that isn't practical or that has only historical information in it is not a useful article for travelers. That's one of the differences between this site and Wikipedia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:04, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Help. Help Help! I have done almost the impossible, the fact is that if you wanna get lost somewhere in Uruguay without knowing your location follow ANY instruction to this route and mine with the tools that i have now is not that bad, the problem is that is a "try to scape" travel from its conception and hence with its in and outs, of course is doable but my knowledge on geography and history of Uruguay is limited so there may be many inacurancies, if i only have some help I could do a better work.--Neurorebel (talk) 06:21, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I wouldn't know how to help. I have no knowledge of this itinerary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:42, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

For sure, even less than half of the population of uruguay neither know,personally all I know are some places that once I visited but from there to tell bus frequencies is some distance, however the article can trick more than one.--Neurorebel (talk) 07:06, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Just do what you can. There are some other Wikivoyage users who are familiar with Uruguay, so someone else may be able to add to what you start. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:11, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Hope so, but you know well the east so you should know Uruguay... ¿Is it here any portal for Uruguay? also this Itinerary was reenacted as of 2011, someone should have the Itinerary of that travel though it also was done by waine.--Neurorebel (talk) 07:27, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't know. If you find out, please post the URL to Talk:Uruguay. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:42, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

ok --Neurorebel (talk) 08:26, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Linking to categories

Hi Ikan Kekek, your recent post at User talk:Neurorebel makes me wonder if you may not know how to link to categories. Adding a colon to the beginning of the link makes it work, as in this link – Category:Guide itineraries. If you already know this, then never mind. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:31, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I know that works on Commons, so it should work here, but I didn't think about it. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:46, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

My user talk page

Hello Ikan! Quick question: in your opinion, am I within my rights to institute this policy on my user talk page? If not, I will revert. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:52, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Why not? If you have the right to delete posts on your user talk page, you can surely delete sig boxes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:45, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

It was my understanding that Wikietiquette frowned on editing other people's talk page comments, even for picayune issues like spelling and grammar and even on one's own user talk page. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:28, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I think you're well within your rights. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:35, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Plagerism Problem with my page

It would be against my better judgement to back out of my Wikibreak, however I was strolling, and found a disturbing edit that holds little similarities to even my weirdness. It's to early to block them, but I would like to hear your thoughts on the whole thing.

Update: It's even worse because now User: AndreCarrotflower went and semi-protected the sandbox page, so I can't even undo anything.

I really appreciate that you went easy on me yesterday, and that you thanked me for doing so, and so I thought I could come to you for help. _{-Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page} 13:53, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

I didn't go easy on you; I just behaved normally. I have no idea what you're objecting to, though. Look at the edit you've linked, please. Nothing to object to, right? I have no idea what you mean by "plagerism", either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:57, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, wrong link. Try this one:

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=User:Zanygenius/Sandbox&diff=prev&oldid=3226151 _{-Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page} 14:05, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Nothing to see there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:25, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

I guess it is a minor edit. How about I let this one slide, and the nest time it hapoens, I'll let you know. Have a great day! _{-Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page} 14:30, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

You too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:38, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps I can shed some light on this issue. Zanygenius, editing anonymously as the IP address User:107.77.244.36, created the page User Sandbox: 107.77.244.36/54 and began editing it as a user sandbox. As there is a space after the colon in the page name (and as there is no such namespace as "User Sandbox"), that meant the page he created actually ended up in mainspace. I therefore deleted the page with the edit summary "These need to be created in userspace". Zanygenius then recreated the page over my deletion and resumed editing it as before. At that time, keeping in mind my own contentious history with this user, I figured that a less confrontational way to solve the problem would be to redirect the page to User:Zanygenius/Sandbox, which I did, with an edit summary that, in a friendly tone, explained exactly what I was doing and why: "Again, pages like this need to stay in userspace. For your convenience, I've moved this one to your userspace yourself." I furthermore figured that Zanygenius' userspace was the most logical place for it, since "User:107.77.244.36/54" is not even a valid IP address. And yes, I also protected the original User Sandbox: 107.77.244.36/54 page to prevent it from being recreated again.

I'm all for plunging forward. However, much like the routebox issue we discussed before, this is yet another case of this user charging ahead like a bull in a china shop when he clearly doesn't know what he's doing, making a mess, and then getting defensive and raising a huge stink when other editors dare to clean up said mess. It's a behavior pattern that can't continue if he's to stay a productive editor on this wiki - which would be a shame because when he sticks to adding content, as to Cheyenne or Kimball (Nebraska), it's usually quite good. I'm also sensitive to the issue of editors on Recent Changes patrol (which is how I discovered the issue in the first place) making newbies feel as if they're being followed around or persecuted, but I don't think that avoiding hurting a sensitive user's feelings suffices as justification for looking the other way on an issue of the magnitude of a sandbox page existing in mainspace. Wikis are collaborative projects, and anyone's contributions are subject to alteration at any time, and users simply have to get comfortable with that fact.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:34, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Of course I second all you've said 100%. I followed those events in real time. It's just that the links Zanygenius provided me with above didn't show that, so I felt no need to comment on something he hadn't linked. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:47, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Kabarett

the choice of karabett was deliberate...it's not the same thing as cabaret https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabarett Griffindd (talk) 14:37, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry about that. Since it's a German word, maybe it's best to begin it with a capital letter and put it in italics. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:38, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

WikiVoyage is unhelpfull page

Don't you think that wikivoyage comes to totally unhelpfull page ? What is sense to describe only large airports, only large points of interest. Every large place have great description on many sites in many languages, but this smaller have no informations or not enough informations for travelers, so it will be helpfull to put some more about, some more than we can find in specific language or official site etc. --Stimoroll (talk) 18:04, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Sure, but the information on smaller airports can simply be included in the page for the city mainly served by the airport, just as the information about that city's train and bus stations would be included in the "Get in" section. It's not a question of whether to include useful information or not, only whether a separate article is required. That said, if you'd like to argue for different criteria for airport articles, I'd encourage you to make your suggestions at Wikivoyage talk:Airport Expedition. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:18, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Series of revisions to Oakland

An Anon decided to lob a LOT of very dodgy and biased garbage content onto Oakland - I need an assist here... L. Challenger (talk) 05:49, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm actually in Oakland right now, but unfortunately, I have no time to check this and probably won't for at least a couple of days, as I'll be on the road. Please feel free to revert at will and post to Talk:Oakland. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:56, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Gallery template

Do we have some Gallery template to place photos horizontally like in Wikipedia? Soshial (talk) 16:30, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Please have a look at the wikicode in Electrical_systems#Plugs_and_adapters, for instance. However, per Wikivoyage:Image_policy#Montages_and_galleries we try to avoid galleries here on WV. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:37, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Thx for the answer and the warning! Soshial (talk) 17:11, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Another question. I came up with the idea that it could be very helpful to include a youtube link with event description to give better understand of the type and atmosphere of these events. What do you think about this practice? Soshial (talk) 17:15, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

I remember Youtube links having being deleted from articles. A few years back we discussed adding videos to articles (or something along those lines) and the community didn't like the idea. Personally I think video content might be useful in some cases (for instance for events, as you said) but you should perhaps better bring up this in the pub or at Wikivoyage_talk:Image_policy. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:31, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for handling this, ϒpsilon. Soshial, YouTube links wouldn't be in compliance with the guidelines at Wikivoyage:External links#What not to link to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:46, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Upgrade

What is missing, before nominating Oslo Airport, Gardermoen for a starred article? I am constantly trying to develop and improve this article. Any tips on improving it further are welcome. Carsten R D Talk 01:10, 27. july 2017 (UTC)

I promise to look through the article with a fine-toothed comb when I'm more alert (currently jetlagged after 3 weeks on the West Coast of the U.S.) and have more time, but I notice that it's currently at Usable status, so as a first step, check to make sure it's already a Guide and change its status accordingly before you nominate it for a star. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:21, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

I had a look and made some copy edits in the opening sections of the article. I think the O'Hare International Airport article is the closest we have to a Star airport article (I think it should be a star), so please have a look at it. Right now, I think the Gardermoen article is good, but I'm not convinced it's a Guide yet. One problem is the "Eat and Drink" section. Any time readers are pointed to an external link for a "complete overview", that's a red flag. Also, is there any way to be more specific about the locations of eateries than "Domestic Terminal" and "International Terminal"? How would a reader find them? Geo would be helpful. Conversely, I would remove geo from the first instance of "Oslo Airport, Gardermoen" and use only an external link there, as the entire article is about the airport, so it doesn't make sense for it to be only a point on the map. Other issues for Star but not Guide status have to do with niceties of idiomatic English writing, but I think it's much more important to make this article a Guide than a Star. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:57, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Dude how do you have so many edits

Whenever I'm looking through the version history of a page your name always seems to turn up. Fixing spelling, removing advertising, listing things. The first few times I didn't notice, but now it's kind of creepy

I was just digging around in an Essaouira listing to see if it was a tout, It was originally but low and behold you had already been there and cleaned up the listing

Who are you, is your consciousness somehow merged with wikimedia? Do you think in binary form? How have you been to so many places?

He's just a very diligent recent change patroller. And unlike me, he doesn't get bogged down trying to research some minor point of the "understand" section or the likes when he does recent changes patrol... Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:02, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I do this recreationally, and that's how I was originally nominated to be an admin. I've been to a few places, but I don't have to have been somewhere to recognize the kinds of problems you mention. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Ill be in new york about two weeks for a day - please email me if you can - I know you have closed your email here on voyage - staying in ny such a short time

JarrahTree (talk) 06:37, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Also I cannot believe how I have fallen by the wayside here - must revitalise the voyage frame of mind - lots to do still !! JarrahTree (talk) 06:38, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Check your email. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:43, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Done JarrahTree (talk) 06:52, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Swansea

I added a vegetarian listing and you reverted it for touting. How is a new listing considered touting? It merely had the cafe details and a mention that the food was good - the same as the other listings. What was the problem? Can you re-post.

Sorry, I reverted the edit, because I totally don't understand why it was removed. It was in no way a tout, just the listing of a recently opened restaurant. —The preceding comment was added by 119.2.118.111 (talk • contribs)

Did you read the don't tout page? Your simplified version is a lot better, so thanks for that and I'm OK with it, but your original language of "After eating here, you'll never crave eat again." (I think you meant "never crave meat again") is definitely promotional-sounding, not merely descriptive. Make sense? (Also, you'll notice I "signed" for you. On talk pages [only], please sign each post by typing 4 tildes [~] in a row at the end of your message.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:05, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you 119.2.118.109 10:13, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for putting up the listing and working to improve it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:30, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Emmette's disambiguation pages

I created two disambiguation pages: Dulles and Seven Corners. But I've never created disambig on WikiVoyage before, any rough edges here you think should be smoothed out? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 01:31, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. I question the need for the Seven Corners disambig, because it disambiguates neighborhoods in two undistricted cities. I similarly question the need for a Dulles disambig. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:32, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

For what it's worth: Wikipedia has articles for Seven Corners and Dulles, and treats them more as cities then neighborhoods. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:34, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

With apologies for butting in: Emmette, I don't think these disambigs absolutely need to exist, but I also don't think they're doing any harm. I see them as analogous to, say, Central Park (disambiguation), a page I created that points to the large park in Manhattan as well as a neighborhood that is part of North Buffalo. As to your original question: no, I'm not noticing anything amiss with the disambig pages you created. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:14, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't really agree, in that I think that any link to Dulles Airport, including one in that disambig, should link directly to Washington, D.C.#Washington Dulles International Airport. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:26, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

It does link directly to Washington, D.C.#Washington Dulles International Airport. Well, it links to Washington Dulles International Airport, but that's a redirect to Washington, D.C.#Washington Dulles International Airport. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:29, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I see why I missed that before. Thanks for clarifying the link. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:38, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 05:20, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Anyway: Wikipedia has it's reasons for treating Seven Corners as a city. It's a census-designated place, and outside the city limits of Falls Church. So to Wikipedia, it's a city, even if it's really a neighborhood of Falls Church for most piratical purposes. Wikipedia cares much more about stuff like city limits and CDPs then we do.

I think if Wikipedia treats something as a city, but we treat it as part of another city, then we should have a redirect (or disambig) pointing to the article we cover it on. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 09:21, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I understand. I was reacting to it being described as a neighborhood, but I agree with your reasoning above. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:56, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Cemetery, Agra

Dear Ikan Kekek, I have written the cemetery predates the Taj, not the baby Taj. --Rangan Datta Wiki (talk) 15:23, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I'm seeing that today, after a night's sleep. My confusion was in that you are referring specifically to the 19th-century tomb of William Hessing here:

The red sandstone structure was constructed by his wife and is designed along the lines of the Taj Mahal, but not an exact copy.

I think what could help make the listing less susceptible to confusion would be to put the year of the cemetery's founding, or failing that, the years of Akbar Khan's reign, in the first sentence of the listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:46, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Dear Ikan Kekek, made necessary changes, do have a look. Any suggestions do get back to me. --Rangan Datta Wiki (talk) 02:55, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Not bad and certainly clear. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Promotional photos?

This was (I think) my first post here on wiki voyage (and probably my last now), but calling a picture of a wilderness cabin a promotional photo is a joke. I guess as a Manhattanite you don't know too much of wilderness camping, but I'd be super glad if I had information on how those cabins look like and what I can expect when out there. When I was there I made this picture specifically with wiki voyage in mind to let fellow campers know what to expect. I thought Wikipedia itself is strange sometimes, but this is...well ok. No harm meant, but sometimes people's judgement is beyond me. --HylgeriaK (talk) 09:08, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Did you see I reverted my edit? Anyway, had I not, these things can always be discussed on the talk page for the relevant article. Also, though, don't assume too much about where and how I've traveled, based on where I live.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:18, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Why I dislike hyphenating "antisemitic" and "antisemitism"

The hyphenated version may be the more common form in English, but besides my general preference for combined nouns to be one word, there is a subtle difference in emphasis implied by either writing. "Antisemitism" implies that was is talked about is an ideology, set of beliefs, maybe even something pathological. "Anti-Semitism" implies that it is a rejection of an ideology, an aversion to a set of beliefs or a counter of something. In short, the hyphenated version can mean to subtly imply that there legitimately is such a thing as "Semitism" and "anti-Semitism" is simply comprised of people opposed to "Semitism" (whatever that is or may be). But that is of course not what antisemitism is. Antisemitism is a "scientific sounding" word for "Jew hatred" that German people who hated Jews made up in the 19th century in line with their more racist (and less religious) "explanations" for it. It is never rational, it is never directed against any real thing Jews say or do and the victims of antisemitism can only ever escape antisemitism by being stronger or more elusive than its perpetrators or by having someone who defends them. Hence a communist could escape anti-communism by convincing the anti-communists that (s)he is no longer communist. A victim of antisemitism cannot likewise convince antisemites that they have it all wrong and misjudged his "semitism". I may overreact on this point, but to me it seems writing it with a hyphen ever so slightly implies that there is even the slightest bit of a point to the stuff antisemites say. And there isn't. "Semitism" doesn't exist. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:04, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I understand your point of view, but I think we should go with common English usage. We both know that "anti-Semitism" is just a replacement for "Jew-hatred" (Judenhass). Some people have also applied it to anti-Arab bigotry, not the original meaning, but words' meanings and spellings change. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:08, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Email

Would you mind connecting your Wikivoyage account to your email (to enable the "Email this user" function)? I'd like to send you a private message. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 10:04, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I prefer for people not to contact me by email from here to talk about what goes on on this site. What is it you wanted to talk about? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:12, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, I'll say it here. Honestly, I think you might be working too hard. I see your name pooping up all over the wiki. And twice now, when we've been in a debate, I think you were taking it too seriously. Or at least, a lot more seriously then I was taking it. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 10:17, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

That's a fair comment. I'm probably not taking things as seriously as it seems to you, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:18, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

But I will keep this in mind. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:26, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

RevDel request

Actually, the reason to leave an email address here, or somewhere, is that there does not appear to be a confidential place on this wiki for a request for Revision Deletion.

[text deleted by request] But ideally, there is a place to email requests of this type. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:46, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I can understand why you think it's a bad idea for such information to be made public, but I know of no Wikimedia guideline that a user cannot mention his own age. From what I recall, Wikimedia users need to be at least 13 (or maybe it was 12) years old. Moreover, normally, no-one edits anyone's user page unless it is spam or vandalism, in which case it is deleted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:02, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Sometimes, you just have to do what's right. If the age were one where a person could plausibly be considered an adult, say 16, I'd probably leave it alone, or at least go no farther than to encourage the user to take the information away. But here you have an age that's clearly younger than that, and in fact you have a name, age and hometown all together. That is not something I'd like to allow on my wiki, if I were a sysop.

Additionally, I once again note that there is nowhere I can address this matter confidentially on Wikivoyage. At this point, you should probably RevDel everything I've added to this page, too. I appreciate that in general we want everything in running a wiki like this to be open to the public. But around the Wikimedia world, there are certain things well-recognized as requiring a more confidential approach, and this is one of them. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:43, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't feel I can make policy decisions unilaterally, where there is no guidance. Can you point to a relevant Wikimedia policy, since Wikivoyage has none? I would also suggest for you to discuss this matter, without referring to anyone specific, but merely as a matter of policy, in the Travellers' pub, because it's likely to come up again. I am willing to revdel your remarks on this page, since you requested that, after you reply to this post. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:37, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Policies do exist on a number of Wikipedias. Please see the following, for example:

• w:Wikipedia:User pages#Personal and privacy-breaching material
• w:WP:CHILD
• simple:WP:CHILD

On those projects, at least, there is wide latitude available to administrators, oversighters and others to remove "privacy-breaching non-public material", especially that of minors. To be sure, in no case is the removal of such information required. At the same time, at least on English Wikipedia and Simple English Wikipedia, removal of such information is strongly encouraged.

It is these policies that guide how I have handled these situations in the past. De facto, I use them at Ladino Wikipedia and Wikimedia Incubator, where I am a sysop.

Given all of the above, here is how I personally see things:

• I will certainly open a discussion on Travellers' pub.
• I will appreciate your revdeleting this section when we're done.
• On the page at hand, I think there is sufficient strength from the Wikipedia policy for my edit to stand.

  I also think there is sufficient justification to support you to revdelete what I have asked you to revdelete on the page if you wish. I cannot say there is anything, even in those policies, to require that, although I will tell you that on English Wikipedia that information would have been removed and revdeleted.

Thank you for hearing me out. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:33, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

You bet, and thank you for having this dialogue with me. Let's see what other folks have to say about this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:54, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

I have made all the changes in revision visibility on this page that you requested, but without a Wikivoyage consensus on what to do about changes on a user page, I will as yet take no action on that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:00, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Your post in the pub

I saw you made this post in the pub. Honestly, I think that was uncalled for. I can how the phrase "savages in the jungle" could be perceived as insulting to ingenuous people. But I think it's clear that the editor was using the phrase tongue-in-cheek, I doubt he meant any insult to the indigenous people of the Amazon. I doubt he was even thinking about the indigenous people of the Amazon!

I think throwing the R-word around like that just cheapens that word, and doesn't help your case. If you need to say something: I think it'd be better just to explain that there are actual ingenuous people in the jungle, and that you think phrase "savages in the jungle" is best avoided. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 09:03, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

You have your view, I have mine. People who live in the jungle have just as sophisticated a social organization as anyone else. If it was a joke, that's not acceptable to me, either, because it perpetuates bigotry. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:27, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Well, that editor took it a lot better then I feared he would. If I had make a little joke, and an editor had reacted the way you did, I don't think I'd have taken it that graciously. I'd probably have persevered that extremity uncivil, and maybe even thought the person who said it was a nut. It definitely wouldn't be the best way of encouraging me to think and change my behavior.

But if I made a little joke, and another editor just nicely explained why he thought it was in poor taste, that would be a different matter. I'd think about what he said, and maybe take it to heart.

And I'm not saying you can't use the R-word at all: If you made a post explaining that there are actual ingenuous people in the jungle, and part of that post had been "Honestly, that came off as racist to me", well, that's very different then just throwing the R-word at someone. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 17:29, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

I was shocked by the remark, but why are you pursuing a dead issue? The exchange in question is resolved. But since you insist on pursuing this: There are no "savages"; that's an inherently racist word that I don't expect to see in the 21st century on a non-white-supremacist site. My mother was an anthropologist and I have anthropologist friends who worked with aboriginal peoples who live in jungles. Many non-aboriginal people are casually bigoted and accept these kinds of remarks because they're not as sensitive or closely connected to aboriginal people as I am (1 degree of separation). I realize you're well-intentioned in suggesting that I could be a little less blunt in the face of racist remarks that might be intended as jokes and not meant to be expressions of bigotry, but I simply don't expect or accept this kind of language, which shocked me the same way a rape "joke" might. So you expressed your point of view and maybe you understand mine, but particularly if you don't, I really doubt drawing out this discussion further will be helpful to our working relationship. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:02, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

I meant no offence, and I think I understand your point of view. I suppose I was "pursuing" it, because I was worried that this might happen again, and the next editor might not see your point of view. That he might dismiss what you say and get angry at you, instead of thinking about how what he said could be insensitive. But we don't have to talk about this anymore if you don't want to. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 18:27, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

I hope this doesn't happen again, but I appreciate your attitude. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:11, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome :) And speaking of hate and conflict and the like, I've found a video that explains some of the psychology behind it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 13:59, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Re: link

Hi Ikan, thanks for the heads up, unfortunately no I cannot summarize, because I wouldn't want to have only some taxi companies being recommended, but basically it explained thouroughly the chaos at the Otopeni Airport, in terms of taxi transportation. --Vlad (talk) 09:39, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

If only some of the taxi companies are worthwhile, it may be fair to recommend only those. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:22, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Merge and other discussions

Ikan, to respond more directly to your comment, in proposing to remove tags I am trying to prod editors who have proposed mergers to follow through and do them. There are certain editors who are keen to add merge tags and start discussions, but leave the work to someone else. In one case, I opposed a merger, but withdrew my objection because two other editors supported it. When I suggested to the proposer he go ahead and do the merger, he told me to do it! A while ago I went through and cleaned up the proposed merger pile by completing a bunch a mergers, but now I see that the pile is growing again as some people find that they can effectively direct the work of others by placing tags. So yes, I am being a little cranky about it, but I think it is a bad tendency of some editors that we should address. Ground Zero (talk) 12:06, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

I get that, but I think that's different from a deletion tag. If an article is proposed for deletion because of a plagiarism problem, though in that case, the offending section may not have been large enough to be fatal, it's still more serious than just someone slapping a "merge" tag on it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:23, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Fair enough, but if no-one involved in the discussion is willing to do something about it, then it doesn't matter whether the tag is there or not. It is just clutter than makes Wikivoyage look uncared-for and out-of-date. Ground Zero (talk) 12:52, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

I definitely understand your take on this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:22, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Rotterdam

Thanks again for your correcetion of the page Rotterdam: I guess the text will be clearer if the sentence about the port does not start with Beside. With "beside" I meant: added to everything which was named in the preceding sentence. But I can understand that that was not so clear and also the text will be more neutral (less over the top) this way.VanuitVoorburg (talk) 15:00, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Yeah. The clear way to express that would be "Aside from downtown, Rotterdam also includes..." Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:01, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Bung in

I guess I was unconsciously emulating Jamie Oliver, an English celebrity chef you may have heard of. I was consciously trying to keep the informal style WV is known for while making my incredibly pedantic point about the different ways of cooking moules, though not so informal that travellers should be encouraged to put them anywhere but the cooking pot :-)

As for what dialect it represents, that would be my own, from South East England. A consult of the Urban Dictionary would prove illuminating for both of us. A candidate for the English language varieties behemoth, perhaps? Not seriously, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:05, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

I've definitely heard of Jamie Oliver. Thanks for the explanation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:22, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Oy...

Would you mind stepping in here and trying to help get to the bottom of this? As near as I can figure out, the user seems to think the three-day escalating user block I just applied is unwarranted, though (as usual with this particular user) I can't really make heads or tails of what his comment is supposed to mean. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:10, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

OK, I'm giving it a try. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:32, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Ko Tao Warning on page

Hi there, Ikan,

I'm just querying the warning you have at the top of your page about Koh Tao. While there has been a large amount of media coverage about certain events on Koh Tao over the past few years, a lot of the information published has just been rumour and speculation. There is no solid evidence to back up accusations of foul play. The island is no more dangerous than any other area of Thailand. Please take some time to look at the reviews of the large number tourists who visit Koh Tao and have an amazing experience there. I believe that tourists should exercise caution wherever they are travelling, including Koh Tao. However if you feel the need to post a warning for Koh Tao maybe you should look at accidents and deaths in other areas of Thailand and the world and also apply warnings to every other place. If you could take the time to look at this issue and reconsider you would help to counteract the overwhelming amount of scaremongering and misinformation that Koh Tao is unfortunate enough to be the subject of.

Thanks for your time.

Liam 118.173.21.180 11:00, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Liam. I have no opinion about the warning, except that any substantive deletion should be accompanied by a brief explanation in an edit summary. If you're not familiar with edit summaries, please have a look at Wikivoyage:How to edit a page#Previewing and saving a page, starting with the text "Beneath the article editing text box is a short field labelled Summary." Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:05, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

On Andratx!

I am glad you contributed to Andratx, because I need your advice, on a strange Unexplained revrt that occurred after I made some improvements to Andratx after seeing it in the Special:New Pages page. (I organized into a small city skeleton, and made sense of the paragraphs. I also cleared the crystal in the "Get in" section, Because I could hardly understand! Then I had errands and research to do, and so I stopped.

MY REQUEST: I am confused over the revert, so could you provide insight on the discussion?

All the best luck, _{-Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page} 01:02, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

I will wait for Hobbitschuster to address this. I think it was unintentional. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:41, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Good plan, I'll see you over there! So you think it was unintentional, right? _{-Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page} 16:53, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Right. I'll wait till the end of the day or tomorrow. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:05, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

I should not have hit rollback. That said, there were some glitches in it, like two status templates and two pagebanner templates. Please have a more thorough look the next time. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:48, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

This user has made valuable contributions to various articles in the past, but - forgive me for being blunt - wordsmithing is not his strong suit. In addition to the comments above, Zanygenius would be well advised to stick to adding information that's not already present in a given article, as with the bit about arriving in Andratx by boat, rather than replacing text that is well-written (if spartan) with what amounts to a far more poorly worded version of the same thing, as he did in the intro lede. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:08, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Hobbitschuster, thanks for dealing with this. You're right, guys; I didn't notice the problems and could have paid more attention. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

No problem. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:58, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Hey guys,

Ikan Kekek: You shalt take the blame for this yet. Frankly, one of our many friends, User: Hobbitschuster made the crystal that should have become clear very rusty, and dirty, and loosing comprehensive wealth with the comment. It is a very true command indeed, but I think he could have spotted it to either me or you, User: Ikan Kekek.

Everyone: Gracias to all those who took time out of their busy schedules to input their opinion here. Again, Gracias, it's been helpful.

AndreCarrotflower: When you look up the definition of wordsmith, this happens... :'( . Andre, I'll admit I don't have a rigorous background full of complexity, but not a wordsmith? I know lots of words and my writing is legible. A more accurate term is that I lack any paragraphsmith ability, because I am messy and can't conjoin paragraphs. (trust me, my experience tells me I am a horrible paragraph-smith.) But otherwise, I feel your case is very accurate, and helpfully explained what (I did) in the Andratx article. So Thanks.

Hobbitschuster:Who haven't I answered yet? Oh, yes the Hobbitschuster himself! I was going to correct the page banner thing in a moment, and fill in the various sections afterward. But I apologize for the rest, because I know a sloppy article is edible (get the food reference?) while not looking good on screen. I will strive my best for the perfectionistic beauty of the articles, and that they can be understood. Guranteed!

Conclusion: I am really impressed and filled with gratitude all at the same time for you all making your voice heard. :) I personally think I could organize passages and paragraphs with smoother flow, and not try for the mark very time. I will aso be less sloppy from now on. I KNOW THAT I'M AN IDIOT I tell myself that everyday, but that doesn't apply to all areas of me, such as wording, and the sort. What I want you to pull away from this: Despite my wording, I'm not making this federal. I understand this scenario has both sides right and wrong (though I'm mostly the guilty party here).

Have a wonderful day, _{-Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page} 20:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

You're not an "idiot", Zanygenius, any more than any of us were idiots when we first started editing here. But what you do need to do a better job of is modulating the types of contributions you make to your level of experience as an editor. As I said above, for now you should stick to the things you know you do well, such as adding new listings and information to articles themselves - which, by the way, is the single most important job on Wikivoyage - rather than worrying about more complicated things like routeboxes, districtification proposals, disambiguation articles, or other stuff that requires more familiarity with policy than you have. That kind of stuff will come with time and as you gain experience, but for now, slow down. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:31, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Slowing down and going witht the flow. Smooth, and I agree, and I will! But I will still do my best to make (helpful) WikiVoyage edits and page creations. Also, if anyone creates a low byte page (less than [500], should I let them know it's better to create it in the user space, and that they should move it there until they're ready, like do? _{-Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page} 22:08, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

What in Wikivoyage is "EditCounterOptIn.js" and can I use it to help me edit?

JavaScript? _{-Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page} 21:29, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

I have no idea what that is. Maybe it's best to just edit normally. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:32, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for coming back to me with advice! I think I'll use what I have, and when I become more experienced, I may look into it down the road. But definitely not today.

Best regards from _{-Signed, the amazing Zanygenius. Visit my chat page} 21:49, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Docent for sabah, East Malaysia.

I humbly apologise for this post, but I am new to reading / understanding wiki pages . I have looked long and hard but cannot make any sense of your tech speak within the pages to help me be Docent to Sabah. Sorry. Maaf kan saya anda Ikan Kekek. I am willing to be Docent for Sabah, but, I cannot make it happen. What I am reading via Wiki instructions does not help me interact/ create a docent. I am really stuck as to how to talk too you (et al.) pembelajaran Bahasa wikivoyage saya. I think I have posted my e-mail to my talk page? skybase534@sky.com

Thank you for any help/advice too make a Docent possible. 
Sorry for posting on the incorrect pages.

Terima kasih untuk tulisan dan soalan Anda. Have you read Wikivoyage:Docents? It looks to me like the most relevant sections are "Becoming a docent" and "Rights and Responsibilities". There's also the more basic question, addressed in Wikivoyage:What is a docent?:

Docents are volunteers—fellow users of this site—who know a lot about a particular destination. They've volunteered their time and knowledge to help travellers like you who have questions.

If you read only that page and the rest of it confused you, I think the other page is a lot simpler. If you have any questions after you've had a look at Wikivoyage:Docents, please feel free to write again. Saya faham Bahasa Melayu, tapi Bahasa Inggeris bahasa saya yang pertama. Anda boleh menulis saya dalam bahasa yang Anda suka mengguna. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:30, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Hei

hei if you think i was just editing Wikivoyage, then you are wrong. I'm pashto Wikivoyage test administrator, also the only administrator in Pashto wikipedia, and I'm from Kandahar i was born there i was everywhere in Afghanistan means that i know about Afghanistan and Kandahar, Kandahar is one of the most safe city in Afghanistan, if you want any more information, links or have a question so please tell me. thanks:))) Bloch khan (talk) 20:09, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

By saying it's safe because it's under the control of the Taliban, I'm sorry, but you're trolling. For most visitors, that quite obviously makes it very unsafe. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:17, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Hold it: I apologize, Bloch khan; I misread your edit. You don't say the Taliban have control; you say the family of Mullah Omar live there. I think you can re-add your points, but I don't think you can remove the warningbox without a discussion at Talk:Kandahar that convinces a consensus. And I would suggest that even if Kandahar is the safest city in Afghanistan, it's still Afghanistan and even if the last major terrorist attack there was in 2011, I think prospective foreign visitors should still be careful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:47, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

I am not going to make a crass point about this, but the German government is currently deporting asylum seekers to Afghanistan calling it "safe" or claiming there are "safe" parts of it. I think it is obvious that they themselves do not believe this by the protocol that is observed for ministerial visits in Afghanistan. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:31, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry for late answer Please search:YZTvpq2UpZ0 on YouTube, and look the same video on YouTube, thank you very much. Bloch khan (talk)

Thank you. Maybe it would be good to put in the link in the article's talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:02, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Can we now change dangerous box from Kandahar?

No, you need to convince a consensus before taking such an action again. Since you're a Wikipedia admin, I would think you'd be familiar with the process of discussing things on talk pages for articles and seeing if a consensus can be developed. Explain on Talk:Kandahar why the warningbox is no longer needed, in your opinion, and propose removing it. You also might want to make a pointer to the discussion at Wikivoyage:Requests for comment. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:43, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Stay safe

Is it true that the same emergency numbers are used throughout Pakistan? Ans Rescue 1122 (Urdu: 1122 پنجاب ایمرجنسی‎) is an emergency service that serves Punjab Province in Pakistan. But Police help line 15 is used throughout Pakistan.

• In this case, it's enough to list these numbers on the country page only. Per obvious, they don't need to appear on every Pakistani city's article. Ibaman (talk) 11:20, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. I hope you don't mind that I moved this new thread to the bottom of the page, which is where new threads are started on Wikis by custom. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:01, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

So it seems that the police help line should be covered at the country level, whereas the 1122 number is something for the Punjab (Pakistan) article. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for finding that out. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:15, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

"Cities" sections

thank you for your advice on iran i omit one city that is less important than other and one important city Sadegh sadegh (talk) 09:02, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

You removed Qom. That might be OK, but not unilaterally. My advice, as you can see in this edit summary, was "If you want to argue for a substitution, do so on the talk page." So you need to make an argument at Talk:Iran and see if you can get a consensus behind your proposal. For now, it's likely that someone will revert your substitution because it was done unilaterally. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:23, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

I'd like your thoughts on my draft for a merged article.

I'm planing on proposing a merge for the Lewiston (Maine) and Auburn (Maine) articles. The articles heavily overlap, and from aerial images: I think it's clear that geographically speaking, they're the same city.

But before I propose the merge: I'd like your thoughts on my draft of the merged article. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:54, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Emmette. The draft looks OK, but I'm not sure the merger is a good idea. These are two cities separated by a river. I don't know enough to know whether or how much they have separate identities. I'd suggest for you to post to both article's talk pages, seeking wider comment. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:04, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

That's what I was planing on doing. But it seems to me that identity isn't really what's impotent. That what's impotent is: From the traveler's preventive, do they function as one city or two cities? Is it more piratical for the traveler to have one guide covering both, or two separate guides? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 00:14, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

You make a good point. Make that point in your post. And I don't know the answer. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:15, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Metro New York breadcrumbing

I saw that you were having some troubles with breadcrumbs at Talk:Metro New York#Breadcrumbs and article text contradicting each other, I might have a solution. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 11:11, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion. I made a remark on the talk page for the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:38, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Question regarding Epicentrum's XXI Theatres

Hello Ikan, I see you have a question about the meaning of this sentence, "Much smaller mall because there are just a few options for dining and shopping. Home of the two biggest screening theatres in Jakarta (from 21Cineplex chain)".

Epicentrum Walk has only 2 screening theatres but with bigger capacity than normal XXI theatres throughout Jakarta so it's kind of appropriate (I think) to put "the two biggest" instead of "two of the biggest" since neither of them is IMAX theatre and both are the biggest in the city (at the time I'm writing this).

If you have any questions or edits you might think are more appropriate, don't hesitate to ask me or just edit it the way it should be. I'm happy to help. ibhi19 (talk) 07:45, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I think my question would have been whether they were the 2 biggest in Jakarta or the 2 biggest in Jakarta from 21Cineplex chain. The parentheses help make the meaning seem to be as you intended, though, so I think it's OK. Dan terima kasih banyak untuk kerja Anda yang bagus! Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:51, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! I'll keep learning and trying to contribute as much as I can! ibhi19 (talk) 09:43, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Excellent. Between you and Tawonmadu, a lot of good new edits are being made in articles about Indonesia. That's of really great use to travelers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:32, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

My Addition at Nha Trang

Hello Ikan

Regards to Citadines Bayfront Nha Trang edit

Thanks for the edit. My apologies for the confusion due to my bad English. You're correct, there is one of each facility mentioned at the end of the description. JoshEff (talk) 06:20, 15 November 2017 (UTC)JoshEff

No need for an apology. I'm glad you read my edit summary and found it useful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:28, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Mistakes on capitalising the nouns of "bemo" and "bajaj"

Hello Ikan!

Thank you for correcting the sentence on Jakarta's new Bajaj Qute. The reason of capitalisation on the word 'Bajaj' in 'Bajaj Qute' is because the Qute itself uses an engine from the manufacturer 'Bajaj', but I think it's okay to not capitalise the word 'bajaj' and 'bemo' as well.

Also I apologise for sometimes having a tendency of capitalising the nouns due to learning German. I hope the new information on the Jakarta helps you.ibhi19 (talk) 07:36, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

I quite understand. The only thing I find easy about German grammar is that all nouns are capitalized. I wish we did that in English. That said, if Bajaj is a capital name like Jeep, please do capitalize it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Alright, will do. I agree with you on the noun capitalisation in German and English should've implemented that as well because it's also a Germanic language. Thank you! ibhi19 (talk) 08:41, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Hei

I am the one who was talking about kandahar, and I have many video links, if you have any social media media accounts so please tell me I will send you everything there like:Facebook, Viber or something else... :))) Bloch khan (talk) 01:33, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi there. Would you consider posting links to Talk:Kandahar, so anyone could view it if they like? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:08, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Trash bin in a car is an obligation in Bandung (Edit from: Gsarwa)

Hello Ikan!

From your last edit on Indonesia, it is actually a law in Indonesia to wear seat belts at all times, but I was confused by an edit from Gsarwa, because he/she also added the law of having a trash bin in a car in Bandung. Though I've stumbled to some pages and articles and they confirmed it, that it's also a law as well, only in Bandung. Could you give me some advice, whether it should be included in Indonesia page on section 'by car' as well?

Anyway, thank you! Terima kasih!

Regards, ibhi19 (talk) 10:27, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Sama-sama. I think it's most important to mention in the Bandung article, but a very brief mention in the Indonesia article is defensible. If too many local ordinances end up being written up in that article, we'll then have to reconsider. One comparison is that the sometimes very different penalties and even laws in the various U.S. states are not detailed in the United States of America article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:06, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

That's my actual concern in Indonesia page regarding the law of having a trash bin in the car. But I think it's already brief enough without further details. Alright, if it's not mentioned yet in Bandung, I might want to add it there. Thank you! ibhi19 (talk) 13:41, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

I think your concern is warranted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:24, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation Guide on Indonesian Phrasebook

Hello Ikan!

I thought by giving those "-k" ending on pronouncing the words will give more clarity and closeness to how most Indonesians speak, even though the "k" sound is actually inaudible. I'll admit, I gave both words a listen to "punk" in Panggang and "rank" in Go-reng on Google Translate. Most words on Malay and Indonesian actually have similar soundings, so I think your edit is also correct.

I think it could be interesting as well to talk about fundamental differences on pronouncing some words in Malay and Indonesian since we have a similar root to both languages, yet admittedly it can be quite different as well, for those who've never heard one languages to the others.

Anyway, have a nice day! Selamat siang!

Regards, ibhi19 (talk) 12:12, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Selamat pagi, for where I am. :-) Part of the issue is how I, as a New Yorker, pronounce "punk" and even more so, "rank". I believe no such vowel sounds exist in Malay or Indonesian, except maybe in the Malaysian state of Kelantan and adjoining parts of southern Thailand and such. And the "k" sounds in "punk" and "rank" are quite clearly pronounced in all native-speaker English accents I'm familiar with. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:50, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Links to Wikipedia

Hi! Sorry for my mistake and thanks for the note. What is about the Horizon Village & Resort and the Wikipedia link to Jimmy & Rosalynn Carter Work Project in Chiang Mai..? --StagiaireMGIMO (talk) 07:41, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi, StagiaireMGIMO. I don't understand your question. But perhaps the answer is that I simply reverted your edits in full because it's way too much trouble for me to take out all the inline Wikipedia links individually. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:02, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

OK. I will set a link to night bazaar only. Roger? --StagiaireMGIMO (talk) 00:35, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Forgive me; I don't remember the specific context. But the standard procedure would be that the night bazaar's URL should be given in a listing for the night bazaar, not elsewhere. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:54, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

OK, I saw the edit. Please click here to read my edit summary. I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but though passages like "Situated in the heart of Chiang Mai, a few steps from the famous Night Bazaar, 450 metres from the Ping River and 800 metres to the Old City" are standard in hotel brochures, they aren't supposed to be used on Wikivoyage. Instead, we provide a street address and, if possible, longitude/latitude geo coordinates and let readers figure out where a hotel is in relation to places that might interest them. Then, in the hotel listing, we concentrate on describing the hotel itself, not what it's more or less "close" to. If you read the Wikivoyage:Don't tout page (note in particular "Avoid assertions of proximity to nearby attractions" and the "Good" and "Bad" examples), I think things may become clearer for you, so have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:03, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Double standards

I do not quite agree with your course of action on my edits regarding getting around the entrance fee in Yangon pagoda, because:

1. WV is spotted with such advices, some even worse like the constant mentioning of facts for people without an international driving in Vietnam: "Western tourists should avoid taking a rented motorbike to the White Sand Dunes if you are not in the possession of a Vietnamese driver's license." (Mui Ne#Get around) This is serious stuff that could lead to imprisoning, and far more serious than a forced exit from a government run pagoda.
2. Travellers should be aware that if there is a cost that there might also be an enforceable law. But it is up to them and their moral to make the judgement.
3. Money does clearly not have any moral. Arguing on moral grounds that something has to be paid is hypocritical.
4. If people come to Myanmar with the intention to leave as little money as possible with the current government, I reckon this is worth our support, given the injustice this government stands for.
5. Why is it me that has to question the others on this issue when I was not the one that removed this point in the first place? It was there the whole time, no one bothered. I merely restored the status quo. Shouldn't it be you asking the others for their opinion instead of taking this decision on your own?

Ceever (talk) 11:29, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

My comments in respect of your bullet points:

(1) Irrelevant and a logical fallacy (a false equivalence)

(2) Does not support the inclusion of the content. The article states the entrance fee, and readers can still decide about paying.

(3) The first sentence make no sense and is unconnected to the deleted content. The second sentence is also flawed as the issue is the morales of promoting an illegal activity.

(4) What evidence do you have payment goes to the government and not, for example, the upkeep of the temple? Should you or others have qualms about money ending up with the government then don’t visit.

(5) Because you have repeatedly added this content and are trying to defend it. That it has previously been present is not a defence, is not how Wikis work and your argument is another logical fallacy (argument from silence) —The preceding comment was added by 103.52.228.27 (talk • contribs)

Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of each post.

My comment is that Wikivoyage:Illegal activities policy is not flexible, that this issue should be discussed at Wikivoyage talk:Illegal activities policy if you want to change that policy and at Talk:Yangon with links to at least two other threads if you want to try to attain a consensus for an exception. In no way could you have any chance of achieving a consensus by merely discussing things with me, especially as User:103.52.228.27 opposes your arguments, so even if I changed my mind (and I haven't), 2-1 is not a consensus. Also "It was there before, even though it violated Wikivoyage policy but no-one noticed it" is not a relevant argument in the face of a clear policy violation. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Would you be able to look this over...

...and just reassure me that everything I'm saying here passes muster? Both in terms of being patient with inexperienced users and in terms of the nuances of our copyleft policy. Thanks. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:29, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Seems OK to me, but I didn't have any idea that only Federal government publications were public domain. Do we have any way to know for sure that the Town of Ledgeview's Parks & Recreation Plan in particular is not in public domain? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:03, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

According to the State Copyright Resource Center at Harvard University, there are only four states - California, Florida, Massachusetts, and Virginia - whose government documents don't fall under copyright, so it stands to reason that the legislation that grants federal government documents presumptive public-domain status doesn't also cover subnational governments. I has about as much success with my Google search for the copyright status of documents produced by the town government of Ledgeview, Wisconsin as you could imagine. Best practice in this scenario is to err on the side of caution, agreed? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:38, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes. If Downspec can show clear evidence that that the documents are in fact in the public domain, though, that would be fine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:13, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Moving Council to Nome Article

Good point there. The reason I created the article was that someone had created a link to the page, except that no page was there, so I created one. Feel free to merge the articles.73.223.163.36 03:25, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll take care of it when I feel up to it, or someone else will. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:52, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Funny. That was me! --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:39, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

New Taipei City

Thank you for the information. I realize that cities are not broken up according to each district, but I was trying to make a start. Rather than East, West, Central etc, I was planning to slowly make distinctions according to locality and function, such as the coastal region, residential areas, industrial zones etc. However, within those categories, some districts which have more attractions, such as Jinshan, would probably be given their own article. In reality, we already have separate articles for other New Taipei districts, such as Xindian, Banqiao etc. I hope this is ok. If not, then I'll leave it. —The preceding comment was added by 111.240.211.156 (talk • contribs)

I don't know whether it's OK or not; all I'm saying is that you should discuss this at Talk:New Taipei and see if a consensus can be attained for your proposals. (And parenthetically, when you post to talk pages, please "sign" by typing 4 tildes [~] in a row at the end of each post.)

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:41, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Dortmund

Dear Ikan Kekek and Hobbitschuster,

dammn thats hard stuff and I can't understand the main criticism. Im not a tourism professionals or employees of the city council, im just a former student of the Dortmund University who came to study in this City. The City is today my home and I will do my best to show a good critical analysis of the city like the other cities on en.wikivoyage. Its not my place of birth but I like the city and the football club. But maybe its easier to split the points of criticism. (1) Its not a simply copy and paste of the eng. wiki article, because its my own work and I am the "main author" of a lot of Dortmund wiki articles. Please take a look on the edit history, its all my stuff. I collect the information of other sites like Mercer, Handelsblatt and so on and write them together. (2) Ok thats a good fact. Lets discuss about the section. I think its pretty charming to know the city districts of Dortmund and I saw that in a lot of articles on others sites. (3) I get it. (4) Please see above, im not a tourism professionals. Primarily I have used the existing structure and sound of other Wikivoyage articles like Rotterdam, Liverpool, Manchester and so on.

So please restore my hard work of more than 1-2 weeks (take a look to the History of the englisch Dortmund Article, its all my own work) and we can discuss about some sections.

many greetings from Dortmund DortmunderWestfront (talk) 13:04, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

DortmunderWestfront, thanks a lot for replying. I greatly appreciate your work and your time.

However, if I restore all your work, you'd need to restore all the listing templates by hand and edit every place where the tone needs editing. Since I gave you a direct link to the last version of the article before I reverted your work, why not copy and paste all useful content from there? If you like, you can click "edit" on that version and access all the code for that version.

I should say that although if you were the one to add particular sentences and phrases to a Wikipedia article, you retain the copyright to it, there are two issues: (1) At least some of that text is reused all over the Internet, so adding it verbatim is likely to greatly damage the Wikivoyage article's Google ranking; (2) You nevertheless always need to indicate in an edit summary or message on the article's talk page that you copied and pasted your own work from Wikipedia, so that other editors don't draw the conclusion that you are violating copyright.

Please let me know if you'd like any other help.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Just checking: using Google Maps to obtain information

I often get latitude information and general info about locations from Google Maps. I don't copy any original text, just phone numbers and things not actually created by Google Maps. This is allowed, right? SelfieCity (talk) 02:02, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Sure. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:31, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

• Template:TPS Is it allowed or not? :) --Titodutta (talk) 16:34, 19 December 2017 (UTC)TPS is Talk page Stalker, please see w:Template:TPS.--Titodutta (talk) 16:35, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Given that the template redlinks here (and we at least used to have a policy to use templates sparingly) you might have to explain what TPS is and does... I for one have no clue. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:13, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

I skipped through the Wikipedia article you linked, and my reaction is that there's no need to import this template here. If you want to make sure someone sees a post, just ping them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:57, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

• Sure, thank you. --Titodutta (talk) 15:19, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, Ikan Kekek. Selfie City (talk) 03:55, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Any time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:20, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Khok Kloi

If a hotel has a bar, restaurant, spa, barber shop and beach club, it still normally gets only one listing, and certainly not three. So please merge relevant and non-promotional information from the Co-Sea House Thai Food and Beverage and Akyra Beach Club listings you created into the Aleenta Resort and Spa listing, then delete the separate listings. If you don't do that, someone else might do it for you or might simply save time by undoing your work. And please avoid unclear promotional expressions like "very reasonable prices". Thanks a lot.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:48, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Aleenta, Akyra, and Co-Sea House are totally different places. Aleenta is a five star resort around a kilometer or two from the four star Akyra. Co-Sea is a small family run restaurant, totally unconnected to the local resorts. How did you assume that they are one and the same place? If 'very reasonable prices' is considered touting, then how should I convey to travelers that the cost of the meals are not high. Thanks. 101.108.103.50 05:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I re-read your post, and maybe the name 'Beach Club' implied that Akyra is just a club, and so gave the impression that it is an extension of Aleenta or connected in someway to Co-Sea Restaurant. It is not. In reality, Akyra is large four star hotel - photo: https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0d/ef/4a/9d/akyra-beach-club-phuket.jpg. I agree though that calling a hotel 'beach club' is misleading. Thanks for following up. 101.108.103.50 06:12, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

I thought the phone numbers were the same for the different listings. If I made a mistake, I apologize. As for prices, the way you indicate what they are is by giving actual numbers. "Very reasonable" means very different things to different people in different places. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:32, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

The phone numbers for the three listings are different. There is no need for an apology. I am happy that you are checking my edits, as I am prone to make errors. I couldn't remember exact prices, but just remember thinking that the dishes were inexpensive. Next time I make an edit, I'll try to note actual prices. Thanks for your comments. 171.96.190.242 12:58, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

"Inexpensive" is clearer than "reasonable", but if it's already listed in a "Budget" subsection, that's sufficient to indicate general inexpensiveness. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:48, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Got it. Thanks 101.108.111.148 04:11, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Japan

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Wikivoyage:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub. By the way, have you considered creating an account here? While you can absolutely keep contributing as an anonymous user, it promises a bunch of benefits, and no obligations. Thanks for your great work so far! I think what you were trying to do was link Meditation in Japan while have the text say "meditation classes". The way you do that is: meditation classes - without the "nowiki", naturally.

If you have any other questions, please ask by typing a message below this one. All the best,

Thank you. I registered a long time ago, but keep forgetting to sign in.

Yes, I was trying to link Meditation in Japan while have the text say "meditation classes". I was almost got, but had it back to front: Meditation in Japan. Thanks for your help 119.2.103.21 13:22, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

You're welcome. Glad I could help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:03, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

While we're on that topic....

User:Inferno986return might be another good candidate. What do you think? Ground Zero (talk) 11:41, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Ask him/her. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:07, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Agra

Please stop adding wrong information, and not least as you appear to have no relevant knowledge. Your content is wrong & is touting. It is also hypocritical for you to warn about edit warring ([40] when it is you who has removed accurate content on multiple occasions.. —The preceding comment was added by 116.50.59.180 (talk • contribs)

I never intend to remove accurate, non-touting and non-vandalistic content, and anywhere where I've done so, please restore the content with an explanation in your edit summary. All I ask of you, as of anyone else who makes substantive, non-obvious edits, is to give a clear explanation for them in your edit summary. You now finally have, I'm fully satisfied with it, and I thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:39, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

You repeatedly added inaccurate content, and which was also touting. In respect of edit summaries you need to consider your actions, and are requested to be civil, as summaries such as this, [41], are unnecessarily aggressive. Reading the following appears warranted [42] and [43]

I reverted edits because they weren't explained in a way I understood, and it's normally a fairly routine thing on this site to revert unexplained deletions. I thought "this is wrong" was again a claim that my English was no good (a really annoying claim that you should stop making), not a comment about the claims you were editing out being factually incorrect, which I now finally realize is what you had meant. I apologize for expressing annoyance, but all I was asking for was a clear explanation. Again, now that you've given one, I'm perfectly happy with it.

Wikis are about communication, and when you edit war and don't give clear explanations for your edits, are you surprised that someone could find that annoying? You also probably didn't see my post to User talk:117.239.90.222, because you have a dynamic IP. I was annoyed, but I was trying to communicate with you, and the ultimate result was in fact this useful communication, though it took a while to get here.

I really do appreciate your helpful edits; just please try to clearly explain anything that might not be obvious, and if anything is reverted as an unexplained (or not clearly explained) deletion, just give a clear explanation in an edit summary or put a quick, clear explanation on the user talk page of whomever did the reversion. Sorry to be a little intemperate; I'll try to cut you some slack, but just keep communicating with other users. And do restore any text you believe I shouldn't have removed. Just give a reason in your edit summary. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:02, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply, and in response to your recent comments:

• 'when you edit war'. Any claim about edit warring is equally valid against you.
• 'claim that my English was no good (a really annoying claim that you should stop making)' The edit summary (and note your request 'just please try to clearly explain') was valid.
• 'I was annoyed' You are clearly an experienced editor, and hence should not allow such to influence your edits and comments. —The preceding comment was added by 116.50.59.180 (talk • contribs)

You are also an experienced editor, though it's hard to know quite how experienced, because you have a dynamic IP and usually don't sign your posts. Please sign your posts on talk pages, and if you don't know how, I'll gladly explain (I think explain again). Anyway, as I said, I am perfectly satisfied and happy with the explanation you ultimately gave, so I don't think I have more to say unless there's something else you'd like to talk about. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:55, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

nice to meet you

Hi there,

Ok Thanks, will do, this will go along way to making wikivoyage more attractive and viewable for sure.

Kind Regards, Gun jack 2000 (talk) 22:48, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Excellent. Glad to have you.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:54, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Stavanger City Map 2018

Hi, I published the SVG version. Best wishes, Kevin Paul —The preceding comment was added by Kevinpaulscarrott (talk • contribs)

Thanks, Kevin. It's a beautiful map, and I see the copyright is yours. It's not Wikivoyage style. Let's talk about this at Talk:Stavanger. I can start the thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:15, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi Ikan, it's the official municipality city map for Stavanger, Norway. This map is strategically placed in and around the city, as well as published in the guide book and online. It would be an asset for Wikivoyage visitors. Kind regards, Kevin Paul

• It will, if and when a Wikivoyage-style version is produced. You could also use your knowledge to add latitude and longitude to the individual listings, so the dynamic map is updated. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 16:36, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello Ikan, please check the following when you have time, thanks: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:City_map_stavanger.svg UPDATE 2018 Mapmaking Expedition SVG for source, PNG for output 3008 pixel City street maps: These are simplified maps of the main streets, landmarks, and other important parts of a city. --Kevinpaulscarrott (talk) 23:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Still doesn't look Wikivoyage style to me. We can discuss this at Talk:Stavanger, though, as most other users who might be interested won't look at my user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:47, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Add listing button

In older articles of Wikivoyage there is no "add listing" button next to the "edit source" button (e.g. https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Thasos). How can I add this function? DocWoKav

I don't know, but you should be able to click the icons to the right of "Listings" in your edit screen. The temple is "See", the bicycle is "Do", the shopping cart is "Buy", etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:49, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Hermann page update

Thanks for the message about this page. I really appreciate it. I live in this beautiful town so I may come back and make more updates to make the page better. Hope you have a great day. Cheers. —The preceding comment was added by Lee Pettijohn (talk • contribs)

You're welcome, and that would be great. (Parenthetically, on talk [discussion] pages only, it's the practice on Wikis to sign your post by typing 4 tildes [~] at the end of each post.)

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:16, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Revenue from social media

Surprised by this Revert. It is clear touting to get additional revenue from Youtube channel hits. Maybe you regard that as more acceptable than when a restaurant does it, but I make no distinction. Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:54, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

OK, revert my edit if you like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Rampurhat

I have created a new page Rampurhat. I think I have goofed up in formatting the page. The top details above the banner have not come through and there seems to be something wrong with the Category:Birbhum-Murshidabad. Please help in setting these right. Regards. - Chandan Guha (talk) 02:01, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm glad to help. I deleted the nonexistent template on the name Rampurhat at the beginning of the article: The name should be bolded but should never have curly brackets around it, which produces a red link to a nonexistent template. And in IsPartOf, you had simply misspelled Birbhum-Murshidabad.

Question: Why do you have a listing for a temple in Tarapith in the "See" section? Also, you can remove the default city name, Rampurhat, from hotel listings.

Please let me know if I can be of help in any other way.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:39, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Many thanks. - Chandan Guha (talk) 05:14, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

You're most welcome. Thanks for adding content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:58, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Removing the red exclamation point on trusted users

Hello, Ikan. I have a first adminy question that hopefully you don't mind answering. There are some longer-standing and presumably by now thoroughly trustworthy contributors who are still not autopatrollers, and whose edits still bear that annoying panicky red exclamation mark. Off the top of my head, I can think of Grahamsands (on WV since 2016) and Scalytail (joined about the same time as me; 5 years ago), though I may have noticed others in the past few months. Unless either of them have shady pasts on WV that I'm not aware of, it seems fairly self-evident that both users should be autopatrollers by now.

So the question is, is that something I and indeed any admin can (and should) change whenever we notice it should be, or is that something we need to gather consensus for, or do we ask the permission of the user? BTW, I know that I can make them both autopatrollers right now if I want to and have worked out how to do so, but really want to know if there is a procedure to be followed before I do that. Don't want to put my foot in it in my first week! Cheers, --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:15, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

This is something individual admins just do, whenever they consider it appropriate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:43, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Righty ho. Thanks for a quick response. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:09, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

You bet. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:49, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Hey

Hey man, I just wanted to drop by and say I'm happy you're still active here. You've made lots of good edits and welcomed me to Wikivoyage and it's good to see such a friendly member still active :) Keep it up! Branthecan (talk)

Thank you. I'm glad you've stuck around and continued to make excellent edits, too! Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

About your revert on Haryana page

As you suggested, I googled 'Jat Reserve', but results are about en:w:Jat reservation agitation. As it is under 'other destinations' in Haryana wikivoyage, I don't think it should be there as it is not a destination. 1997kB (talk) 06:34, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Also after checking history of Haryana originally it was Jarwa Reserve (which in andaman), but later I think it has been vandalized changed (here and here). 1997kB (talk) 06:40, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Those are surely good-faith edits, not vandalism, I would think, since they seemingly corrected the name of the reserve. Right now, there is no article about the Jat Reserve, so if you think it's of no interest to a visitor, I suggest you start a thread at Talk:Haryana proposing the deletion of the listing and giving support for your opinion that it's of no interest to travelers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

But there is no place in Haryana called 'Jat Reserve', why we should waste time for a place, which even doesn't exist ? 1997kB (talk) 07:20, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

OK, if there is no such place, then go ahead and delete! You can type "doesn't exist" or something similar in your edit summary. Thanks for explaining. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:42, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

I made the deletion. Thanks again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:28, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your time! 1997kB (talk) 08:29, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Any time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:39, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Feedback Welcome from DJH918

I just wanted to thank you for the feedback. I'm ultra new to this am learning with each edit. Forgive me if I don't get things quite right. Please keep the feedback coming! Djh918 (talk) 23:07, 13 February 2018 (UTC)DJH918

Nothing to forgive! Thank you for adding the content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:19, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

adventures vs adventurous (next-to-impossible destinations)

Hi, Ikan Kekek,

Yes, I prefer that wording. Here’s the context:

That said, even cruises to the Antarctic coast are more adventures than regular cruises.

In the sentence pattern [something] is more [word] (than [something else]), [word] should be an adjective, just because that’s what the average English speaker will expect. I read “cruises … are more adventures” and thought it was a typo, which is why I changed it.

the point is that they are adventures, rather than merely cruises.

That might be so, but I’d argue that a cruise is an adventure either way. There’s no need to use an unusual grammar structure to express such a minor nuance. These pages should be as clear as possible—after all, it’s not poetry, it’s a travel guide.

Dongzhimen (talk) 07:38, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I haven't been on a lot of cruises (the closest I got was a ferry-cum-cruise from Hong Kong to Shanghai that took 3 nights and 2.5 days), but I understand that quite a lot of them are mostly a bunch of people stuffing their faces at the buffet, with occasional port visits, and not much of an adventure at all. I offered you an alternative wording: "they are adventures, rather than merely cruises". Or if you prefer "rather than ordinary cruises". I didn't create the sentence we're arguing about, but my English usage is different from yours: I would apply "adventurous" to a person or maybe an animal such as a cat, not an experience. An experience is an adventure or it isn't. I understand your objection to the shorthand of "more + noun", though I consider it marginal issue that can be resolved with a phrasing like "[a] is more of an [x] than a [y]". Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:02, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

How about this: "unlike normal cruises, antarctic cruises are usually marketed as adventure tourism and comfort level as well as price usually differ between non-Antarctic and antarctic cruises". The second half can be left out. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:32, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Fine with me (providing "Antarctic" is always capitalized). What do you think, Dongzhimen? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:34, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Sounds okay to me. Just add a comma after "tourism". I might say "both comfort level and price" to make it a little more concise, too, but it sounds good. Dongzhimen (talk) 08:44, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

A comma is needed after "tourism" if it's followed by an independent clause, but I'm not going to use one. I will try a somewhat edited version of this and you can see what you think of it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:43, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Edit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:48, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Autopatroller

Hello! Sorry to disturb you. Is the autopatroll rights open to anybody? I'd really like to be more engaged in this community, and I think autopatrolling would be best for me. Jay Jay Marcus Keize13 (talk) 12:44, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Autopatroller means that your edits don't have exclamation points in WV:Recent changes patrol. Admins give that status to people who've been editing for a few months and in their opinion don't need close supervision. I think what you may be looking for is Patroller or Admin status. That's great! I think you should be an Autopatroller for a little while first and that it may take a bit more time before you become an Autopatroller. However, this site definitely could use more hands on deck with a mop and pail, so I'll keep your offer in mind for sure, and I really appreciate your contributions and desire to be more helpful.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:38, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Ethiopian Jews

Hey there. I'm just writing to say, please edit the part about the Ethiopian Jews to what you feel is more accurate. I am not an expert on this, but I just felt that we should mention other Jewish communities that are neither Ashkenazi, Sephardic nor Mizrachi to accurately reflect the diversity within the worldwide Jewish community. At least based on my understanding, the Ethiopian Jews do not belong to either of those three traditions.

Speaking of which, I was wondering if we should mention the Abayudaya community in Uganda, since they also follow Jewish religious customs. The only difference is that unlike the other communities, the Abayudaya are not descended from the original Jews, but instead converted to Judaism as a tribe. The dog2 (talk) 21:51, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree with your impulse. And on the question: Sure, why not? And there are also Jews in Ghana whose ancestors seem to have come directly from Israel after the destruction of the Temple. I'm not an expert, either, but I think it's quite unclear that all the Jewish communities you mentioned got there solely because they settled from somewhere else. I think there's been mixing with local populations nearly everywhere and also some conversion to Judaism in various places. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:42, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

This Wikipedia article may be of interest in this discussion. To give on minor point away, the Khazar myth has no basis in genetics. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:05, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

The Khazars did exist, though. The myth is that Ashkenazim are all descended from Khazars, not that there was no Khazar Jewish kingdom. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:25, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I was getting at: The antisemitic myth that Ashkenazi Jews are not "real Jews" has been thoroughly discredited by genetics as if the other evidence hadn't been enough... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:24, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

The thing is, though, that anti-Semitic myth is completely meaningless under Jewish law, because Judaism is not a race and doesn't require that one's physical ancestors be Jewish. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:32, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Most certainly there would have a lot of intermarriage. For instance, if you look at the Kaifeng Jews, they are believe to be descended from Persian Jewish traders who settled in China from the Tang to Song Dynasties, but by the Qing Dynasty, they were virtually indistinguishable in physical appearance from the non-Jewish Chinese. And of course, Ethiopian Jews look like other Ethiopians, Arab Jews look like other Arabs and European Jews look like other Europeans.

Speaking of the Abayudaya, based on the stuff on WP, one of the leaders decided to become Jewish in order to resist the British occupation of Uganda, so it was a fairly recent conversion. And I recently came across the news that there is a recently-discovered tribe in Zimbabwe that was nominally Christian or Muslim, but followed Jewish religious rituals. The dog2 (talk) 01:33, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I haven't heard about the Zimbabwean tribe. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:57, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Here's the article. [44] The dog2 (talk) 02:34, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I knew about the Lemba being descended from Kohanim. I didn't know they lived in Zimbabwe as well as South Africa. I also didn't know they retained some Jewish practices. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:45, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Chasidic vs Litvish

From what I recently came across, it appears that there is a second group of "ultra-Orthodox" Jews called the Litvish or Yeshivish Jews, who are supposed to be distinct from the Chasidim. I would like to ask what you know about this, and if they are indeed distinct from the Chasidim, whether you can write something about them in the Judaism article. The dog2 (talk) 17:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Litvakers are of Lithuanian origin and a yeshiva is a place to learn about Judaism. Otherwise, I have no idea what you'd be referring to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:32, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

This blog post mentions something about them being two distinct traditions, but I'm not sure how accurate it is. The dog2 (talk) 19:15, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you!

I have received your notification, thank you! —The preceding comment was added by Naturista2018 (talk • contribs)

Sure thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:29, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Akaa

Does the article now have a proper template? OnreOfFinland (talk) 07:21, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Almost, but it's lacking important codes at the bottom. I'll fix that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:23, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

See these edits, and also have a look at Wikivoyage:Quick small city article template and Wikivoyage:Small city article template. Let me know if you have any other questions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:26, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Oh yeah, got it, thanks! OnreOfFinland (talk) 07:27, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

You're welcome! Thanks for starting the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:35, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Danakil

My English is not that good to write English texts accurately. Regarding the safety section, I experienced the following and you may wish to add anything you consider important to the article. a) Not recommended to separate from the group too far, especially on Erta Ale (from what I heard, the German tourist was shot after he and his guide got too far away from others at some timepoint). b) There are nowhere warning signs or fences, so stay away some 1-1,5 meters from the Erta Ale crater edge. c) Don't touch the water in Dallol ponds, as it contains acid. d) Next hospital is in Mekelle, which is several hours away (luckily, there is now a good road to Berhale, which Chinese have built a couple of years ago) and e) Common sense is always very important. --A.Savin (talk) 03:27, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll work on it. That really is quite clear. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:13, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

I added some of this (not the common sense, which is for better or worse assumed). Please do feel free to edit the text; if your English is off, someone can always edit that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:05, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Telstra?

why are you accusing me of being a vandal or a sockpuppet? I'am not. --Arabia619 (talk) 17:41, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Apologies. It's simply because to this point, your username and editing style resembled that of one. I'm very glad you are not. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Recent developments at Talk:United States of America

I was wondering what your thoughts might be regarding instituting a topic ban for TheDog2's repeated edits at United States of America#Respect. We've never done this at Wikivoyage before and it's uncharted territory in terms of local policy; however, topic bans are a relatively commonplace procedure at Wikipedia, he's too valuable a contributor to ban entirely, and it seems like after as many times as he's ignored our pleas to find something else to focus on, we need to make a stronger statement this time. Normally I'd take this straight to the user ban page first, but given what an unusual situation this is, I figured it would be good to bounce it off another senior contributor to see if it would be appropriate to even bring it up for a nomination. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:28, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

CC: User:Ground Zero -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:29, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

I must say, I frankly do not understand the obsession of this user with making some vaguely "this political faction is evil" statements in that article. I am not sure where it is coming from and it is draining our resources... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:10, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

I definitely see topic bans as being a useful tool for dealing with editors in particular situations. would it be appropriate in this circumstance? No. The last time TheDog2 edited the respect section was April 8, when all s/he did was move a subsection from "Cope" into "Respect". His/her latest contribution was to propose an addition on the talk page. @Mx. Granger: and I have responded with brief comments expressing opposition and suggesting that we move on quickly. I would not want to impose a topic ban for proposing something on a talk page. Further, TheDog2 has shown respect for other members of the community by editing the USA article to reduce the bloat. I think s/he will get the message when editors respond as we have. Ground Zero (talk) 20:16, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

As someone who occasionally watches but doesn't participate in Talk:USA, I agree with Ground Zero. A topic ban is not warranted given the adjustment in behaviour (i.e. going to the talk page first), and would be a drastic step - both for the user and for our site as a whole. Obviously you're free to propose it, but you know how I'd vote. Apologies to Ikan for all the notifications he's going to receive. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:49, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

So far, there's been no big derail, and I will refrain from replying to his latest comment. I would keep a topic ban in reserve and doubt it's necessary now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:53, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Okay. That's why I brought it up here first, rather than causing unnecessary rancor by charging ahead with an actual userban nomination. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:54, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Good thinking. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:56, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Ground Zero (talk) 02:55, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

im back

bali and india did it

well maybe the walking Delhi and Sanur

for that matter the air around McLeod Ganj

one of them... JarrahTree (talk) 00:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Glad to have you back. Articles about Indonesia and India always need help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:47, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

thanks - spooky checking wikipedia english articles they have been so neglected - there was even a page or two about bali that had voyage terminology and format. apologies for prolonged absences - hope to make for lost time. JarrahTree (talk) 00:50, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

We all have lives. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:52, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

yup another grandchild last week ;)

contoh: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nusa_Lembongan saya bingung, bagaimana voyage di dalam wp en ? OK just a very very cursory check it looks like a lift from a very under-developed article of early days wiktravel or voyage... very tricky the different logics of voyage and en and potential 'lifts' from one to the other in either direcction. I think there was only another one - when have more time will investigate further both of them JarrahTree (talk) 01:02, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Syabasy on the new grandchild! My Indonesian, such as it ever was, is rusty, but I get your point. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:49, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Questions

Greetings Ikan!

Do you think my contribs to the community is good enough? And one more! What are my chances of passing an RfA?

Regards, Jay😎 (talk) 13:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Your contributions are excellent. What is an RfA? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:43, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

• "Request for Adminship", maybe...? Ibaman (talk) 17:53, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

OK, that's logical. And my remark would be to wait a year or at least several more months before trying again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Judaism and Dogs

Hey there, as you may already know, Muslims consider dogs to be unclean, so it is not permissible for Muslims to touch dogs or keep dogs as pets. My understanding is that there are passages in the Tanakh that describe dogs with a degree of contempt, so my question is whether or not there is a similar religious prohibition on dogs for Jews. If so, I think it is something that should be mentioned in the Respect section of Judaism article. The dog2 (talk) 18:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm not close to an expert on Jewish Law, but as far as I know, there isn't. Also, I didn't want to get into complex technicalities of Islamic Law, but it's more complicated than Muslims flat-out not being allowed to have pet dogs. Some Muslims do, and it's OK, in their opinion, as long as they wash and say special prayers after they come into contact with dog saliva. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:34, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Urgently need 2nd opinion

A user has made about 10 edits each to Downtown Shanghai & Shanghai recently, mainly moving text (20,000+ bytes) from the former to the latter. This reverses a lot of the work I did in creating the Downtown article, but that is OK. I'm certain these edits are being done in good faith, and I think most of them are things that should be done.

However, I feel strongly they should not be done until after the Downtown article finishes its time as DotM. My comments to the user are at User_talk:Ar2332#Downtown_Shanghai_edits & include a link to earlier discussion.

I'm hardly unbiased here & I'm not certain what should be done now, so I'd like at least one other admin to look. Maybe you & User:AndreCarrotflower? Pashley (talk) 22:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

This user has contributed very constructively to these articles, e.g. by drawing their maps, & has been active on Talk:Shanghai as well. Pashley (talk) 22:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

And has been excellent in articles about Israel, too, among other places. This is a disagreement, nothing more. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:40, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

These edits have removed a lot of good content from a DotM. These edits would be problematic enough anyway but are near-vandalism when they occur to a DotM featured article. I would advise quickly rolling back these edits and then maybe considering going ahead with his edits after the Downtown Shanghai is no longer a DotM. Wikivoyagers who saw this article as it is now would be quite disappointed that it was being featured as a destination of the month. Selfie City (talk) 23:56, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree, except that I'd reaffirm that I have no doubt no harm was intended. Thank you for taking charge of this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

You're welcome. And yes, I've looked back at Talk:Shanghai#More_on_districts and the editor that removed the information is not a vandal or anything of the sort. I wouldn't be surprised if the editor did not realize that the article was being featured and did not realize the significance these edits had. It definitely feel, though, that we don't want to give potential new Wikivoyagers a bad impression of the site when even the DotM only appears half-written. Selfie City (talk) 00:22, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Follow-up is at Talk:Shanghai#Decision_on_Downtown_Shanghai Pashley (talk) 19:48, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Reverting one of my recent edits

Dear Ikan

Thank you very much for your message. I received a message telling me that my "edit appeared to be an attempt to use this site to advertise or promote a business or service" in Yazd page while there was not such this purpose and as a local I tried to add the property to the listings. However, after reading "Wikivoyage's guidelines on identifying promotional edits" I noticed that some guidelines were not applied. So, I try to change these parts and add the listing again. I hope all the guidelines will be met this time.

Thank you very much for your consideration. Kind regards —The preceding comment was added by Seidhasani (talk • contribs)

Thank you. Very much appreciated.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:17, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

A second set of eyes

I can't tell if this user is our Telstra friend or just a newbie with a strange question and a very similar username pattern. What do you think? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:49, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

I'd say it's unclear so far, so let's see what his/her next couple of posts are like. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:03, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Reversion

Why did you revert my edit? I was just fixing a broken link. --Numberguy6 (talk) 14:24, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Because you were editing someone else's user page. Normally, no-one but the user should edit their own page. However, if you had typed in an edit summary that you were fixing a broken link, that would have been OK. You type an edit summary in the "Summary:" box below your edit screen. Thanks. Meanwhile, I'll revert my reversion - and include an edit summary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:37, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Re:Ardlethan

Thanks for the courtesy ping. I think you're right. After sending that welcome, I had second thoughts about the article. It is a sparsely populated area with many small towns. Perhaps an article can be created on the broader Coolamon Shire (WP article) because each town will only have 1 or 2 listings of note and the local tourism agency promotes Coolamon as a whole (see [45] and [46]). I didn't realise it was a Telstra vandal so I apologise. Perhaps one day Ardlethan will be a redirect to Coolamon Shire but until then it should be deleted. Gizza ^(roam) 05:12, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Cool, and thanks for the quick reply. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:18, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Recent vandal is same vandal

The recent vandals you just blocked (good job!) and whose edits were quickly reverted is the same vandal that who went on a wild rampage a little while ago, although that time, he/she used a different username. I know it's the same vandal because both times, the vandal used the same language and said near-terrorist things (ex. that North Korea was good, Putin, etc.). What keeps happening is that he/she signs up on Wikivoyage, so even if we keep blocking their username, they get on Wikivoyage with a different username and do the vandalism all over again. Is there any way we could block them so they can't keep doing this? Selfie City (talk) 23:37, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't know. Maybe if you post to Wikivoyage talk: Vandalism in progress, someone might be able to design a filter. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:28, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Ethnic costumes

Regarding the "cultural appropriation" controversy, the reason why I thought it should be mentioned in some form is because it has made news headlines a few times, so not mentioning it kind of feels like ignoring the elephant in the room. For instance, it was in the news that many Japanese-Americans were offended when Katy Perry wore a kimono at one of her concerts, while Japanese people actually from Japan did not find it even the slightest bit offensive. The most recent one, with that girl wearing a cheongsam to her prom, actually made global headlines. She got a lot of abuse from many Chinese-Americans (and others as well) on Twitter for doing that, while if you look at Weibo (the Chinese equivalent of Twitter), Chinese people from China were actually scratching their heads as to why Chinese-Americans found it offensive (and as a Chinese-Singaporean, I actually don't find it offensive at all), and many were even supportive of her.

I guess I'd like to ask for your opinion on how we can cover this in a fair way. On one hand, I don't want to misrepresent all left-wing Americans as oversensitive, because it is clearly not everyone, but it is true that many millennial Americans find it offensive (I'm currently not at UC Berkeley, NYU, or one of those far-left universities) if you wear an ethnic costume that is not from your ethnicity, because they consider that to be "cultural appropriation". The dog2 (talk) 01:03, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

"There have been some high-profile cases of anger by Americans toward other Americans who wear the traditional clothing of other nations and peoples." But you simply can't claim it's a pervasive problem if I've never gotten anything but compliments on my batik shirts. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:45, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Of course I'm not claiming that all Americans are offended. I will say right now that I have in fact met left-wing Americans who think that this "cultural appropriation" thing has gone too far. But it is most certainly more prevalent among college-educated millennials than in other sectors of the American population. I guess the important question is whether or not it is a large enough sector of the population to warrant any sort of warning to visitors. And based on the firestorm that we saw on Twitter, I think that some mention is warranted. But anyway, I think I'm good with the way you have phrased it. The dog2 (talk) 03:02, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

OK, cool. By the way, if anyone ever had the temerity to object to my wearing batik, I'd ask them to say it in Malay. And of course you can imagine the discussion that would follow. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:20, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Collages

"Montages are problematic in particular for a travel guide, because their aesthetic is reminiscent of a travel brochure, or some other promotional, rather than informational, material."

What lame reasoning for not allowing collages. I simply used the Wikipedia collage/montage photo because it's a very convenient way to show a wider representation (9 sites) of the town rather than 2 photos. So does that mean Wikipedia articles look like travel brochures?

You've lowered the quality of the article, and wasted both of our time. I will not waste any more time going and hunting for individual photos.

--RaffiKojian (talk) 06:38, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Sorry you feel that way. I gave you the link to the reasoning, and it looks like you read it but disagree. That's OK! I don't agree with every Wikivoyage policy, either, and anyone is free to argue for a change in policy. In this case, the place to do that is Wikivoyage talk:Image policy. Please present your case there, rather than arguing with me for enforcing a policy which has so far been a consensus. Consensus is the Wiki way, and it's subject to change by a new consensus but not by the actions of an individual who disagrees with it in the absence of a new consensus. Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:43, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

There are articles out there that show how the type of behavior you're exhibiting strongly discourages others from editing on Wikipedia/Wikivoyage. So I hope you consider the reasons why that is, and instead of destroying peoples improvements, you focus on improving articles. --RaffiKojian (talk) 06:48, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I added 3 thumbnails. We're all volunteers here, and if you prefer not to edit rather than to edit within Wikivoyage guidelines, that's your call. Have a good night. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

And there's that well-documented attitude, now literally telling me to not to edit over a nonsensical "guideline" that you feel the overwhelming need to go around and enforce. --RaffiKojian (talk) 07:05, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Look at your user talk page. I look forward to seeing your argument at Wikivoyage talk:Image policy. I will not argue with you about this anymore on my user talk page, nor on yours. And if you think my conduct as an admin is a problem, try posting to Wikivoyage:Administrator nominations to suggest that I be desysopped. Good luck. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:09, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I am not about to go about trying to change policies and guidelines here, nor reporting an admin. I have simply made two points. 1) how silly it is that a collage taken from Wikipedia isn't allowed here because it would make the article look like a brochure. So either Wikipedia articles look like brochures or they don't. 2) the type of behavior you are exhibiting is shown to drive away less frequent editors. So since you are an admin, which I did not know, you can do with this information what you like. You can see my point about the collages and try to change the policy yourself and you can leave harmless changes be (and certainly never suggest someone leave the project over something like this), or you can disagree with me and/or ignore these points. Anyway, I too have made my points repeatedly and am done. --RaffiKojian (talk) 07:30, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't think you understand. I absolutely do not want you to stop editing; what I want you to do is stop blaming me for enforcing a guideline you don't like. It's not worth it for me to enforce it when I get this kind of response, that's right, but no-one has a special exemption from guidelines developed over the course of discussions here, and if that's anyone's fault, it's the fault of the entire Wiki setup and the people who engaged in the discussions that resulted in the consensus in favor of the existing guidelines. I frankly did not develop the policy on collages, though I probably agree with it because the resulting photos are smaller and therefore less user-friendly than a smaller number of bigger images and a Commons link. But I think the bigger issue is that my enforcement made Wikivoyage no fun for you, and your response made it no fun for me. So therefore, in the future, you are likely to deal with someone else on this issue, if it comes up again. And I hope it doesn't. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:00, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Redirect of Ajanta

Thanks for contribution, Ajanta has world famous caves and has heritage site. It was wrongly/purposely redirected to the Aurangabad city to take an undue advantage for redirect tourists. Caves were 120 Km far from that city and It has its own pages on Wikipedia also. I am new to Wiki Voyage Help to make this page as per Wikivoyage standards. -Mahajandeepakv (talk)

I welcome you here, but as I said before, you need to make an argument at Talk:Aurangabad, and not on my user talk page, where (a) no-one else is likely to read it and (b) you're arguing with someone who has yet to have any opinion on the substance. Unilaterally undoing a redirect is irregular, and in any case, you would need to use a Wikivoyage:Article template and not plagiarize from Wikipedia. Please read Wikivoyage:Copyleft and Wikivoyage:Wikipedia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:45, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the guidence - Mahajandeepakv (talk)

Certainly. You may indeed have a good argument, but please make it. And what kind of article template would be appropriate? A park template, perhaps? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:55, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

"Block evasion"

When I was banned, I thought it was just for my account. Thanks for letting me know.

Libertarianmoderate (talk) 22:52, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

You bet. That kind of things goes for all Wiki sites. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:04, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

health issues

Because of my very erratic presence - I am unsure where to put the answer to Andy's question at Australia - talk -

that is health care agreements in the Australia article - https://www.humanservices.gov.au/individuals/enablers/rhca-medical-care-visitors-australia/27436#a1 any idea where I should put it - or did i miss something? JarrahTree (talk) 12:50, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

"Stay healthy" would be the logical section for this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:08, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks JarrahTree (talk) 09:57, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Page banners

Why won't the page banner show up on my homepage? I did exactly what User:thunderingtyphoons! said.—The preceding comment was added by Libertarianmoderate (talk • contribs)

I don't know, but a minor point: Please sign your posts on talk pages by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:36, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

User:Libertarianmoderate, I fixed it for you. In the pagebanner tag, 'File:' shouldn't be included. --ϒpsilon (talk) 04:55, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Central Kathmandu

I appreciate that the bdi template is no longer used, but I am unable copy and paste Wikivoyage listing templates. If I open new templates for each listing, then I will need to transfer every detail to the new template line by line (name, address, phone number etc etc will all need to be individually retyped for each listing), and, unfortunately, I just don't have the time to do that. So, what do you suggest - that we use the bdi templates as we are transferring a large number of listings to new articles or just leave the information on the original page until someone has the time and energy to type the information for each listing into a new template. I'd be grateful for your advise. 202.51.93.63 11:55, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

It has already been suggested that you go into the Kathmandu article in edit mode, so that when you copy and paste, you are pasting the original Wikivoyage listing template codes, too. Unfortunately, you or someone else already got rid of some of the important formatting in the Kathmandu article. This has created a big mess, because it decreases the quality of the information and means that if you can't restore the codes, someone else has to laboriously do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:05, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but how do I copy and paste a listing in edit mode. It is not allowing me to do so. It only allows me to copy a listing when out of edit mode, but then it is in bti format. Please advise me on this. Thank you. 202.51.93.63 18:27, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Ground Zero has explained it to me, and it works. Apologies for the trouble. 202.51.93.63 18:39, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

No problem. I greatly appreciate your motivation, effort and cooperation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:46, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

JohnBell3290 and User:Kennock483

I have reason to believe that the two above users are Telstra sockpuppets.

1: No user page, no discussions (Testra's defining trait) 2: Editing recently edited pages (and some of the same edits) https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Kennock483 and https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/JohnBell3290 like Telstra did. 3: A strange attraction to pages I made or edited heavily 4: Small, harmless, but not very helpful edits.

Would you mind having a look at them? Libertarianmoderate (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm on the road. Someone else should (and I'm guessing probably did) take care of this. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:59, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Something regarding an old thread on my talk page.

I know this is not travel-related, but with respect to a discussion we had on my talk page a long time ago, the SPLC has admitted its mistake and apologised to Maajid Nawaz for calling him an anti-Muslim extremist when he clearly isn't one. In light of this recent development, I retract what I said about the SPLC being an extremist organisation, and I wish you and your left wing buddies all the best in the continuing fight against bigotry. The dog2 (talk) 03:34, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. Thanks for the news, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:23, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Baqubah

I know what I said might have come off the wrong way. If it did, I apologize. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 23:18, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

No apology needed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:35, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Stub articles

I thought about what you said at Talk:Maroua, and I'm going to take your advice. I'll spend more time working on the articles I've created and other blank ones, and less on creating new ones. For example, I added more content to Numidia. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 17:25, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Great. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:26, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

You could be even more helpful if you used listing templates. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:44, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

The templates here are so annoying. It's hard enough to have to deal with the Pagebanner and ispartof templates. You can't copy and paste easily, you have to build them yourself, etc. I really do not see a reason for the listing templates when a bullet list or what I did would work just as easily without dealing with templates. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Make the argument at Wikivoyage talk:Listings. So far, I've found the templates to give a superior look to anyone's non-templated version. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:07, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

@Libertarianmoderate:, I am guessing from your comments above that you have not figured out how to work the listings templates. They are actually quite easy. When you open an edit screen, look above the box that you put text in. On the line above the text box, you should see "B I... {some other symbols}... Listings" and then a series of symbols: a building with columns for See), a bicycle (for Do), a shopping cart (for Buy), a knife and fork (for Eat), a margtini glass (for Drink), a bed (for Sleep). If you put the cursor in the text box, and then click on one of the symbols, the appropriate listing template will appear in the text box, and you can fill in the details. Please try it out. I hope this works for you. Ground Zero (talk) 02:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Question

Hey, @Ikan Kekek:

I was wondering if you could explain to me what Wikidata is. I keep getting notices that my articles are being given wikidata items. Libertarianmoderate (talk) 01:45, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikidata is the place where all of Wikimedia's data can be found. Wikidata has a website, and here's an example of a Wikidata "item", as it is called. Selfie City (talk) 02:01, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Selfie City, thanks for explaining. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:45, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

You can also link individual listings to wikidata and have the data that is stored at wikidata filled in the appropriate fields, which is especially handy if you want to add geo coordinates (so that the listings show up on the map) Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:38, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Is it licit to use Wikivoyage to advertise a rental company?

Hi, I come for this change. Is it licit to use Wikivoyage to advertise a rental company? I couldn't find the policies on this subject. --Pedro Felipe (talk) 13:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks for asking. Please acquaint yourself with our policies on Goals and non-goals, External links, Don't tout, WV:Tone and Welcome, business owners. If done within these guidelines, yes it is licit. Happy editings Ibaman (talk) 13:41, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

I'd emphasize that advertising on Wikivoyage is per se against the rules. Purely descriptive listings are not advertisements, however. Have a look at the links Ibaman so helpfully gave you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:19, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Fine. Thanks for your message! --Pedro Felipe (talk) 13:47, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Buffalo/Elmwood Village's new intro lede

What do you think? Lively creative writing, or too much of a left-field approach to the subject matter? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:02, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Pinging Ground Zero as well. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:07, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Comments moved to User talk:AndreCarrotflower#Buffalo/Elmwood Village lede.

Ibaman was blocked

I'm pretty sure this was in error. Could you remove the block if that was the case? ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:53, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Your changes to the Seiser Alm page

I'm referring to this change. I'm fine with the change you made to the Chamois link. But the other links you removed were informative. Even if one doesn't use Google translate to set the content to English, the user who follows those links can see pictures of the referenced sites and get some understanding of what they are. Whats worse is that you seem to be behaving in a rather capricious manner targetting my changes. If you look at the history of the page, you will see that I was fixing broken links introduced by a different user several versions back. There is still a broken link of the same sort (Schlernhaus) that I forgot to fix, but which you judged was ok to leave in. Why the double standard here? Marvin The Paranoid (talk) 12:05, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Or, instead of taking Ikan Kekek's enforcement of policy as a personal attack on your edits, which I am certain they're not, you could have read the policy pages he referred you to in his edit summary, read and learnt from them, and removed the remaining link that you noticed was out of place.

If you don't like the policies cited, you can try to get them changed at the relevant talk pages. But first, you should reevaluate your attitude, and accept correction when it's offered. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Exactly. Thanks for explaining this. And Marvin, please note that existing Wikivoyage policies and guidelines are not set by the individual but were decided on by a consensus. If you want to change them, you have to persuade a new consensus to agree with you in precisely the way Thundering suggests. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:23, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

A new user

A new user who deserves our support, encouragement and guidance to ensure they don't make the sort of mistakes that other editors have made in the past. ;-) Ground Zero (talk) 13:35, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ground Zero: See the Zayn Hussein section in the Travellers pub. ---Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:05, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

MUST SEE

Some of the articles are quite long with a lot of useful information but difficult to find out what are the highlights of the place. Is there any guideline for a paragraph e.g. "must see" to show the essentials for quick readers? User:DocWoKav

DocWoKav: Yes, it is quite reasonable to have an intro to the "See" section, stating that if you have limited time you should see x, y and z. Alternatively, in some cases, the sights may be so prominent as to merit being mentioned in "Understand" or in the lede. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:01, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

thoughts

my return (again) after these rather long breaks, I have formatted https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Cemeteries perhaps eccentrically, any suggestions as to a more conventional or accepted form? any thoughts on that would be appreciated. Ta JarrahTree (talk) 08:40, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Nice to see you again. I'll have a look at some point.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:45, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Artist vs Artiste

My understanding is that "artist" refers to someone who does any form of art, while "artiste" specifically refers to someone in the performing arts. So both terms would be applicable to both men and women. But perhaps that's a difference between British and American English. The dog2 (talk) 22:38, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Could be.

By the way, I think the stuff you added about Latin music in the U.S. needs to be edited. The rise of salsa in Spanish Harlem is important, and Tito Puente was a superstar mainstream figure. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:46, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead and make the edit. You're the resident expert in music here. The dog2 (talk) 23:33, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

With some holes in my knowledge. I did make an edit. I fear it's still incomplete, and for example, it doesn't mention Ritchie Valens' hit version of La Bamba, which probably merits a mention. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:34, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Do we have a Latin music travel topic? If so, I could contribute. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:16, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

I just posted a comment at Talk:Jazz, which I'd ask you to look at. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:19, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Saw the comment and adjusted accordingly. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 00:23, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Streets as listings

Context: this edit. About the first two, sure, I agree those aren't listings. I do want some clarification about whether streets are acceptable as listings. For example, I recently edited Newcastle-upon-Tyne which had a commercial street as a listing in its Buy section. The street was apparently well-known enough to have a WP article and corresponding Wikidata item, which I added.

Is there a policy on this? Streets aren't exactly listings, but it seems like a shame to forego the Wikidata functionality for those well-known streets which have them. Maybe the situation isn't directly comparable, since the reverted listing was a in different category. ARR8 (talk) 04:26, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

I see your point. Maybe a marker? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:42, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

A marker makes sense. After all, a street won't have a phone number or website. However, changing the Newcastle listing to a marker would remove the WP link, which has a useful list of retailers. Seems to me a listing is the best fit we have right now. ARR8 (talk) 05:01, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

You can include a WP link in a marker. I never use markers, so I can't tell you how, but I've seen WP fields in some markers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:10, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Could you link one? The documentation for {{marker}} doesn't mention it, and there's nothing in the source code, so I guess it's a different template. ARR8 (talk) 05:30, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Sadly, I don't remember where I saw it. I'll start a thread at the talk page for the marker template, if there's no such thread there already. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:45, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

I started the thread at Template talk:Marker#Where to put optional Wikipedia field. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:49, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Is this touting?

In your experience, what do you think? The user has linked to a Wikidata entry of their accommodation establishment from their userpage, and added their business' website to the Wikivoyagers by location page. My feeling is it's very close to touting, though not sure if it actually crosses the line.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:09, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd allow it, but I'd like to know User:AndreCarrotflower's opinion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm currently travelling, so I've not had much time to check Wikivoyage, nor have I seen the specific edits cited. Judging by how it's been described by you two, though, I'd be comfortable classifying this as touting (especially the edit to Wikivoyage:Wikivoyagers by location) and reverting on that basis. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:44, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Bogota

Hi Ikan, thanks a lot for making this discussion possible. I was a looking to find a way to get in touch :)

I think this tour falls into the WV Tour category. It has a great added value, and it covers so much ground, with well-researched content (about culture, politics, economics, sociology..) so it's definitely something that travelers would have never been able to understand by their own. It's even content most locals don't even know...To give you just one short example, for instance, in front of the Gold Museum, we don't blabla about Wikipedia, but explain the impact of Gold & Esmeralds in the conflict, a bit like "Blood-diamond" resources

And I'm afraid it couldn't be summarized in 2 links bullet- points in "See" section, because it's an experience, with the different layers are all inter-connected.

Sorry about the link to LonelyPlanet, but it was more directed to the moderators so you can see by yourself this activity is really considered as a top thing to do in Bogota by leading & selective independent actors. There are lots of public reviews (blog posts, tripadvisor reviews..) And I guess such a great wiki page which resumes the essence of Bogota should includes activities from 2018 as well :) I'll be happy to help providing more information or changing the presentation to make it fully comply with WV guidelines :)

(talk) —The preceding comment was added by Annactz (talk • contribs)

Hello and thanks. Please post your argument at the article's talk page, though. Your task isn't to convince me privately on my own user talk page but to convince a consensus at the talk page for the article. And "value-added activity" has a specific meaning on Wikivoyage, as per the "Tour listings" subsection of Wikivoyage:Listings, which you need to refer to in order to demonstrate this tour has it:

Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveller could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed.

[snip]

In practice this policy disallows listing most audio tours, walking tours, and guided tours since the substance of such tours can generally be fulfilled by an independent traveller, and the information provided on such tours should ideally be included in the appropriate Wikivoyage article. If you have a question about whether a tour can be listed, or feel that an exception is warranted, please use the talk page of the appropriate article to discuss your concerns.

What this means is that if the "value added" is information, you could instead summarize the information in the Wikivoyage article, if you so chose. And "value added" on Wikivoyage means that, for example, a guided tour is required by the North Korean government for tourists to enter the country, or someone is operating a tour on a river boat which a visitor would need to buy or rent their own boat, otherwise, in order to duplicate.

I'll look forward to your argument on the article's talk page.

Parenthetically, you "sign" talk pages by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of your post.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:13, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Admin bits

Hi Ikan, do you mind removing my administrator rights for me? I haven’t been very active lately and I don’t anticipate that’s going to change anytime soon. Also, when I do get a bit of free time for the project, I want to work on content creation rather than admin tasks. I made this decision before the inactivity check (just haven’t had time to communicate it), but I fully agree with sentiments expressed by Andre and ThunderingTyphoons’ today. I’m not performing the role of admin right now and don’t expect to in the immediate future, so I don’t think I should be held out as an admin. I'm not sure if I have autopatroller status though without being an admin, so maybe you could switch me from admin to autopatroller... unless people want to patrol my infrequent edits. :-) Thanks -Shaundd (talk) 06:46, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Shaundd, I'm happy to take care of this for you. Your contributions aren't that infrequent, though. You have 500 edits since June, 2017, 100 edits since April, 2018 and 50 edits since July. So as far as I'm concerned, you're pulling your weight. Are you really sure about this? If you are, just confirm. If you change your mind, we can always change your status back. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:57, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Ikan, I'm sure about this. Most of the recent edits came in July when I had a few days off and wanted to get North Vancouver ready for DotM. Otherwise, my editing and reading the site is sporadic. Cheers, -Shaundd (talk) 05:47, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

OK, done. You are now an Autopatroller. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:50, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

User talk:AndreCarrotflower#Sex tourism

Can you have a look over this talk page discussion? I think it would be useful to have another voice chime in here just in case I'm misinterpreting policy. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:10, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Civil war and the South

While I agree with you that the idea that the Civil War was not about slavery is ludicrous, I wrote that blurb in to highlight why visitors to the South to avoid the topic so they don't offend people. Sure, most sane people know that the "states rights" specifically referred to the right of the states to preserve the institution of slavery, but my understanding is that many conservative Southern whites are uncomfortable discussing the slavery aspect. So the point of me writing that in was to say "Avoid the topic if you can as you don't know if your view could potentially offend someone." As you probably already know, what people believe does not always correspond to reality, and sometimes telling the truth can be offensive. So instance, why do the vast majority of right-wing Americans deny climate change even though we have overwhelming scientific evidence that climate change caused by human activity is really happening? The dog2 (talk) 20:00, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Sorry to chip in on Ikan's page, but frankly the goal of Wikivoyage is not to avoid causing offence under any circumstance. Avoiding any offence seems to be the personal goal of yourself (and, you know, that is your life choice), but it doesn't mean it should apply to Wikivoyage. Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:38, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Firstly, isn't the point of a "Respect" section to inform foreigners about local sensitivities that they might not be aware of? And yes, I am aware that avoiding offence under all possible circumstances would be impossible, but I don't think my insertion is any different from how we treat the Armenian Genocide in the Turkey article, or how we treat the Rohingya genocide in the Myanmar article. In those cases, there is a sharp difference between reality and what the masses believe, and we do tell people to avoid these topics as the average Turk or Burmese will be offended if you bring up reality in either of those situations. The dog2 (talk) 22:14, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

I might offend people by my views that the earth is not flat, that Neil Armstrong really went to the moon, the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that vaccines do not cause autism. Some people will take offence at these views. That would be their choice to take offence and that is fine. We don't need to avoid that.

If a topic is sensitive in a particular geographic area then it can be mentioned. It seems however many of these observations seem are obsessed with race, and really we don't need any more of that. Andrewssi2 (talk) 22:40, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

The main thing that The dog2 needs to understand is that the United States of America article is already substantially complete. In other words, we've reached the point where there's no longer any new information that can be added that's important enough to belong in that article in particular rather than one that's below it in the breadcrumb hierarchy. The recent edits to the article by The dog2 and others are, in the best-case scenario, a wash, and in the worst-case scenario, lead to disputes like these. Inasmuch as the article should be edited at all, it should be with a view to shortening the main article by moving information that's too fine-grained into region articles or travel topic articles. Aside from that and the infrequent instances in which the information in the article becomes outdated, we really need to leave well enough alone. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:29, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

@AndreCarrotflower:This post was about my edit to the article about the South, and not about the one I made to the main article. The dog2 (talk) 23:32, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

My mistake, but my comments above are still germane to the edits you've been making at United States of America over the past few days. As for this particular issue, it also bears mentioning that we've been down this road with you numerous times before in regards to inserting information about race, politics, and other such contentious issues into articles. It was annoying enough for Andrewssi2 that he took an extended Wikibreak due to his frustration with your edits that he's only recently emerged from, and he is far from the only one who has had it up to here with trying to explain to you that such edits are not wanted, in the United States of America article or anywhere else on the site. If you can't get that through your head, maybe a topic ban, as suggested before, might unfortunately be necessary. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:39, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

[unindent]

This text is already in South (United States of America)#Respect, and was there before you added the edit that I considered unnecessary:

The Civil War – sometimes called "The War Between the States" or even tongue-in-cheek "The War of Yankee Aggression" in the South – is still very much present in the public consciousness. Confederate monuments abound, and to a lesser extent so do Confederate flags. If you want to talk about the issue, tread with caution, and don't assume someone feels a certain way about the Civil War just because they're from the South.

Just as I believe that the coverage of Donald Trump was sufficient in Presidents of the United States before we got into a long discussion about the stuff you wanted to add, I believe the coverage of the Civil War and Confederate monuments and symbols is sufficient in South (United States of America). When you want to debate details like this, please stop pretending that the choice is between nothing and something. My observation is that, in the ostensible guise of wanting travelers to avoid controversy, you seem to have an impulsion to cause it on this site. You're a very good editor, but please curb this tendency, and when you feel very strongly that something additional needs to be added, focus on explaining why the preexisting text was insufficient for the needs of travelers. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:57, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

More than that, I personally think it's important to state that there's not going to be an unlimited number of opportunities for you to heed our warnings about not inserting controversial information. Ikan, Andrewssi2 - can we agree that this is the last warning before a topic ban goes into effect? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:06, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

I like The dog2, but I have to agree with you, because we're wasting way too much time on these debates. I think things would go differently, The dog2, if you would give on an article's talk page a clear reason why you think something needs to be added to an article on a controversial subject and don't just go ahead, add it, and then use a style of argumentation that's in very questionable faith, as I touched on above. But at this point, I think you've probably annoyed too many people with these kinds of controversies and should simply steer clear of them, period, and concentrate on content creation and formatting, not controversies of any kind. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:15, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Here's what I think: politics (Trump vs. whoever, is Elizabeth Warren a Native American, and whatever else is being debated about right now) is bad enough in the world outside of Wikivoyage. Wikivoyage debates are difficult enough as they are. Let's not make it worse by combining the two, because the only thing that happens when we bring politics to Wikivoyage is long, annoying debates that never lead to anything positive. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:30, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

We're pretty much in agreement. I did argue that we shouldn't ignore Trump completely in the USA article, but I was happy that we were able to come to an agreement on a form of words and perfectly content to leave it at that. I don't think it's viable to completely ignore politics in a travel guide that seeks to inform, but we can and should minimize it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:00, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that we can't pretend that politics doesn't exist. But at the same time I feel like all of The dog2's edits (currently) seem to be over controversial issues — eg. slavery, politics, etc. — and while he may well know what he's writing, that doesn't mean it fits on this wiki. Wikipedia is a good place where you can discuss these kind of issues — they have enough contributors that it doesn't matter if a debate makes them decide they're leaving the site or whatever. But we still need every contributor we can get.

There are tons of things anyone can do on Wikivoyage — from adding listings to cotms based on research to contributions to articles about places you know, travel topics, itineraries, etc. Contributing to those is much appreciated. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:47, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:47, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

I am someone who happens to have an interest in history, and unfortunately, some points about history can be contentious even if you stick to things that are strictly factual and avoid conspiracy theories. But if the community feels that these topics are too controversial, I will avoid them. The dog2 (talk) 04:13, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Good. And the problem is not that you're interested in history; I am, too. If you'd like to focus on previous periods of history that are travel-relevant and less likely to provoke a long argument, I think everyone will be fine with that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:20, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

It is not that the topics are controversial. It is that they don't belong here on a travel site. I really don't get why you feel you must add them here and not somewhere such as https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/ Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:42, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘At this point, I'm no longer proposing to add anything to the site, but what I want to say is that in general, I think it's important for people to know the historical and cultural context behind why something is offensive, instead of just being told that it is offensive. As an example, as someone raised in a Buddhist family in Asia, to me, Swastikas are just Buddhist religious symbols, and do not have anything to with anti-Semitism or any other forms of bigotry. In fact, I still have some items with Buddhist Swastikas on them in my possession. But because I understand the historical context, specifically how the Nazis used it as their symbol when they murdered millions of Jewish people, even though I am not happy about that fact that the Nazis appropriated what was originally a peaceful symbol and turned it into a symbol of hate, out of respect for the Jewish community, I do not display them in public when I'm in the U.S. I re-iterate that I am not proposing any changes at this point, but that's just my two cents on things. The dog2 (talk) 05:20, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Nobody disagrees with you in principle. Sure, it's nice to know exactly why something is offensive in a foreign culture. The problem is that the reasons for why things are offensive, in many of the cases you've chosen to write about, are not clear-cut. Instead of acknowledging that an issue may not be simple and it's best to leave things alone, you choose to explain the issue the way you prefer, and you feel that you're justified in doing so because you're writing about truth/reality and others are deluded. Look at what you wrote when you started this conversation:

"the idea that the Civil War was not about slavery is ludicrous ... most sane people know that the "states rights" specifically referred to ... slavery ... many conservative Southern whites are uncomfortable discussing [it]"

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. But if you compare it to the example you just brought up, it's like you said this:

"the idea that Swastikas are anything but religious symbols is ludicrous ... most sane Gentiles know that the Swastika specifically refers to Buddhism, but many Jews are uncomfortable with it."

Can you really not see the problem here? And, yes, the former is really just as offensive as the latter to some people. If you really can't extend charity to those you disagree with, and if it helps you to think of them as insane, ludicrous, and motivated by truth-denialism, fine, but realize that this is a high-traffic website, and plenty of insane, ludicrous, truth-denying people will read anything you write.

I very much wanted to leave this alone, but I really can't understand how you have your own cultural understanding about Swastikas, a shape which perhaps ludicrously I am offended by, but you can write about them in a neutral way and not parallels in other cultures. Your opinions do show in your writing, and it's uncomfortable. That, plus the fact that these issues are being debated right now, your tendency to divide people up into homogeneous racial groups, and the simple fact that this is a non-partisan website and, either way, these explanations aren't necessary, are why I personally don't like seeing this kind of content added. ARR8 (talk) 06:23, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

In general I agree. For example, I don't think the Civil War was entirely to do with slavery. It was to do with a combination of things, similar to how the French Revolution got started and many other events in history. Now, on Wikipedia, I think examining closely all the reasons for why something happened in history is fine, but on Wikivoyage I'm not so sure. Maybe only in a few cases a very long time ago.

I don't think The dog2 has done anything bad, though, and I think the user's intentions are good. So I don't think we should attack them too much for everything they say. I don't think The dog2 ever said, or intended to say that "the idea that Swastikas are anything but religious symbols is ludicrous"; he's simply saying that Swastikas were not, until more recent times, a symbol of hate.

As things currently stand, by no means do I think we should ban The Dog2 or even discourage the user from editing. They are not purposely trying to harm the site. I think the issue is dealt with, and hopefully now we can move on. But I can understand if people still have concerns and want to bring them up; I'm not trying to discourage anyone from doing that. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:05, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

We're talking about a topic ban, not a user ban. And there's a pattern of behavior here. But you're right: I'd rather not spend time convincing you. Just examine TheDog's remarks on talk pages in which long arguments ensued and draw your own conclusions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:09, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

I understand that a user ban hasn't yet been mentioned, but we've gotten closer to it. But I'll take a closer look at the contributions shortly. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:18, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd make a very rough guess that perhaps ½ of the user's contributions are over what would be considered "controversial" topics; in other words, half of the contributions are not, at least on the surface, problematic. However, I can see a trend of fairly minor edits to numerous articles that seem to be over minor but problematic points. I think a fairly good example of what I mean is this. A lot of people (myself included) make large contributions or start articles every so often, which I'm not seeing in The Dog2's contribution history. Nor am I seeing discussion on more casual topics by the user, or minor edits to data, etc. But I can understand that everyone has certain interests and areas they know best — I don't get too involved in discussions about technical issues, for example, because I don't know a lot of that stuff. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:33, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Not to want to drag this on but I feel I need to explain myself before anyone starts to claim that I am anti-Semitic. In the case of the American Civil War, in the declarations of secession for every state that seceded from the Union, it was explicitly stated that one of the reasons for secession was to "preserve the peculiar institution of slavery", so it is very clear that slavery is a key factor that led to the secession of those states.

As for Swastikas, all I was saying is that because of history, it is regarded as a symbol of hate in the U.S., but not in Asia. Neither China nor India have a history of widespread anti-Semitism, so that anti-Semitic connotation just isn't there. In fact, if you go to India, some people name their daughters "Swastika". So my point is that understanding the history and culture behind the symbol is key to understanding why it is a symbol of hate in the Western world, but a peaceful symbol in Asia. That's it. I hope this clears things up. The dog2 (talk) 21:32, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that, The dog2, would you be okay with having this discussion moved to your user talk page? Honestly, it belongs there more than it would belong anywhere else. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:36, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

No-one thinks TheDog is a Jew-hater. And no point in moving this stuff to another page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:52, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Okay, sure. I simply didn't know if you wanted all this discussion on your talk page. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:54, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Secondary Sources

https://www.japan-guide.com is this website good to use as a source? Svrangerchrista (talk) 13:24, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I hope Ikan doesn't mind my jumping in here.

You can use any website you like as a source of information, as long as you don't copy exact or similar wording in a way that would breach copyright. We encourage lively, original writing on Wikivoyage, but we recognise that not everyone has first-hand information of every topic they write about, so it is okay to go to other websites for inspiration or to verify something, as long as you then write in your own words here. If you copied information verbatim from another source, it would most likely have to be deleted, so you'd just be wasting your own and others' time: please don't do this!

It's also important to remember that we don't use citations / references on Wikivoyage, even when we get information from elsewhere. We trust you to know what you're talking about. That doesn't mean other Wikivoyagers won't check your contributions for accuracy and adherence to policy, or that they won't correct mistakes, so be prepared for this.

Some pages you may wish to read are: Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians, Wikivoyage:Cooperating with Wikipedia, Wikivoyage:Copyleft, Wikivoyage:External links, and Wikivoyage:Manual of style.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:33, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for that response, Thundering. To clarify; We do and should cite, but only in edit summaries. Whenever you are editing an article, you will see a "Summary" box below your edit screen. You can type something like "summarized from www.japan-guide.com" if that's what you did. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:19, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Uh-oh. Where does it say that in policy? I understand that if you're copying content from another CC-licensed source, it is necessary to provide credits, but is it really the case that we're supposed to credit when merely reusing information? Because if so, I haven't been.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:09, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure where it's stated, but to me, it's obviously a good policy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:11, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I can see how that's a helpful policy but to me the best way would be to make a generic citation and what day you accessed the website you took from and what the website is, then put all of the "sources" in a section at the bottom of the page. Then when using the "Summary" feature, all you would need to include is the website (most likely). I think providing something like that would address the sincerity and plausibility of the information provided by editors of this site. Svrangerchrista (talk) 05:48, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Maybe, but we don't do that, as a matter of style. The citations here are in the edits, edit summaries, and sometimes the talk pages. If you'd like to argue for a big policy change like the one you're suggesting, do so at Wikivoyage talk:External links, but before you do, note that it is longstanding Wikivoyage policy that there are no "External links" sections of any name in any article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:09, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Khoisan Culture vfd discussion

If you didn't know yet, I'm now an admin. I've deleted the Khoisan culture article per consensus and the fact that it had been up there for more than 14 days. What should I do with Talk:Khoisan culture, though? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:06, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes I did know. Congratulations, and thank you for being willing to take on this duty. Talk pages are never deleted unless they're spam or vandalism, so leave it alone. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:17, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Okay, that's what ThunderingTyphoons! said too and I'm fine with that. Just seems odd to have a discussion page without an ordinary page for it. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:22, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

It gives a record of why it was deleted, or should - the Vfd thread should be moved there, if it wasn't already. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:27, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Oh, because in policy it only said you had to do that for kept nominations, at least as far as I saw. I'm okay with doing it, just that I didn't because I didn't see it in policy. Maybe I missed something, though. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:32, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

I could be wrong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:33, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Just wanting to check

Not a serious issue, so I'm not bringing to WV:Vandalism in progress. But checking, do you think a 2-hour block for this is appropriate? The original link did not work, but I think "Dewatabalinanny" has been an issue before and has no connection to the listing. You can check the link and it's daycare or something. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:48, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

@SelfieCity: Best-case scenario, it's a garden-variety spambot. Worst-case, it's a competitor who is trying to drive traffic away from SOS by misdirecting people searching for their URL. This kind of thing happens very frequently on Indonesia-related articles for some reason. Either way, it actually is a serious issue, and merits a block for a lot longer than 2 hours. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:06, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

If Dewatabalinanny has been an issue in the past, I would also go ahead and add it to the spam blacklist. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:07, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I've added it to the blacklist. How long would you recommend for the block? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 04:48, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I realized that both of you are probably asleep now. I extended the block to 1 day around the date and time of this comment UTC. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 05:11, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Also, letting you that the {{ping}} did not work. Others have said it only works if you write it with the first edit to the comment. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 05:15, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I wasn't asleep; I had a dress rehearsal and a concert tonight and just came back after having a post-concert dinner with my girlfriend, who also performed. I think a 1-day block is fine, though 3 days would also be justified, as removing competitors' listings or information is intolerable and much worse than mere touting on a page or two. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:23, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

It wasn't a competitor. They were changing an external link from emergency services to their daycare services website. Of course, just as bad. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:54, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, that could result in a death. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:37, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @AndreCarrotflower: I was in my watchlist just now and I found this. I'll go ahead and extend the block (to 1 month) for the IP address, per what Ikan Kekek said to the user there. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:22, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

I've also created a 1-month block on the account Dewatabalinanny, to match the block on the IP address. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:32, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Long block, but probably appropriate, given that they're also block evading. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:09, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Technically should be three months for both, as that's the third offense per Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits#Escalating user blocks (the original touty edit by the IP address was #1, creating a new account to evade the user block was #2, and the second touty edit with the new account was #3). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 06:29, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for this information, but minor correction: the account was used first, I believe, and then they used the IP address more recently. But you've got the general picture. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:37, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Confusion

On a site where we all trying to accomplish what is best for Wikivoyage, I think situations like this one require someone to explain a lot. That user's talk page is not the right place for it. So I'm going to explain some things here.

• I want what's best for Wikivoyage. If people on Wikivoyage want something, I am willing to go along with it. I've made that clear before, and on that discussion thread.

• Is this not enough to show I'm willing to go along with consensus?

• I'm absolutely ready to step back from that discussion if necessary, which I said on the discussion itself.

• The issue has little to do with my actions so far as administrator, let alone "behavior".

• I have no intention to undercut anyone else, including you. If I did, would I be explaining all of this to you here, so you could understand why I take this view about the situation?

• I don't think it's right to treat anyone, even a banned user, cruelly. I hope you understand what I mean.

• If something is really right, I intend to stand up for it, no matter what the consequences. In this case, indefinite banning is not wrong, so I am willing to go along with it.

Thank you for reading this. I hope you understand my situation and my view on this.

All the best

--Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:32, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

I said my piece. You were calling something into question that is not a close case and was already decided. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:43, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Question on RFCs

Hi Ikan, so I just asked AndreCarrotflower a question on consensus-making over at his talk page. I asked him because he'd chided me on the subject before, but I just remembered we also talked along these lines over at Talk:Bangladesh. Could you take a look over there and tell me what you think? Thanks, ARR8 (talk) 04:33, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Shahkooh

I looked it up on Google Maps, and I can't even find this place on there, let alone a lot to do there. Therefore, I agree that a merge should be done, and I have added a merge template accordingly.

I added Gorgan as the first template parameter. Do you agree that this is the best place? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:13, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Either that or the overall Caspian Iran region, I'm not sure which. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:18, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I found an article (I can't find it now) about the village's technology, and I found a picture of a view from the road just now. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, actually, the user has expanded the article and it's looking better now. They removed the merge template, too. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:46, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Thai cuisine

I have moved some information from Thailand#Eat to create the Thai cuisine article. Thinking that you'll be interested, so letting you know. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:59, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:59, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia

If you want me to say this some other way, feel free to tell me. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:27, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

User:SelfieCity, please just ignore him.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:32, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Probably worth banning that sock here and letting the WP admins know that a sock of a banned WP user is active, through whatever the proper channels are. ARR8 (talk) 21:36, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Just ignore and block. I was away all day. Happy Thanksgiving. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:58, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not an admin on Wikipedia; anyway, I was on a "Wikibreak" over the rest of the Thanksgiving period and into this week; I just came back. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:40, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I thought you meant what to do here, not on Wikipedia. Anyway, welcome back. I hope you enjoyed Thanksgiving. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:34, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:29, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Relevancy

The information I have added is still relevant and you have to take that into account before going off on a whim and reverting edits. I say we leave it to actual admins. --TerrierChicken (talk) 01:45, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

No, my friend, the whim is yours. Discuss your proposed changes on the talk pages for each continent or multi-country region article and seek a consensus. I revert your edits not to decide on the ultimate shape of the articles but because their current shapes are the product of a long process of collective work that can be changed in major ways only through the development of a new consensus. You may be able to be the engine of such a new consensus, but only if you have a collaborative attitude. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:49, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I don't see how labelling the Middle East as West Asia is a 'whim'. It is a well-known fact and the two terms refer to the same geographical location.--TerrierChicken (talk) 01:52, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree but don't think it's necessary, especially as a parenthesis for the Wikivoyage region name. But again, the place to discuss this effectively is the talk pages of the articles in question, which in this case would be Talk:Middle East and/or Talk:Asia. Collective action means not a bilateral agreement between you and me but a wider agreement. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:54, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

About "leaving it to actual admins", Ikan Kekek is a bureaucrat, giving him all the abilities of admins and then some, and if you think I'm making this up, I'm an admin myself. I'd advise that you listen to him. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:56, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Neither admins nor bureaucrats have precedence in determining a consensus on Wikivoyage. However, any new user making edits to really substantially change higher-level articles (continent, multi-country region, thoroughly worked-through country articles like United States of America) can expect their work to be initially mostly or wholly reverted, with a discussion requested before any reinstatement. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:00, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I guess I should state on my user page that I'm a bureaucrat and admin, though I don't like to call too much attention to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:01, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Just thought it ought to be mentioned, and I understand your reasoning.

I've taken a look at some maps of parts of Asia and the biggest problem I see with calling the Middle East "Western Asia" is that there are a few, although not many, regions that could also be considered "Western Asia". Western Kazakhstan could definitely be considered that category, along with perhaps some of Russia near the Ural Mountains. The Middle East's position in the southwest makes it hard for me to support the name "Western Asia". But I'm not opposed to it particularly — if I'd seen TerrierChicken's edit, I probably would have left it alone for someone with more experience/knowledge of the region to handle, because I wouldn't see myself as being on confident ground. The initial comment on this thread, however, gave a somewhat different impression than I would have expected a (new, I assume) user would give when talking on your own talk page.

To clarify, now the addition was reverted, I don't support support adding it back in. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:10, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Yet my edit was reverted... Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:14, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ DaGizza mentioned on the user bans page that the user in question called you a vandal on the w:WP:Administrator intervention against vandalism page; see revision. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:22, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I didn't even know that page existed. I don't think this is a new user. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:28, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Abuse filter

Check the abuse log for abuse filter 38. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 04:16, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I had already looked at it. Not sure what to make of it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:41, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I mean, I'm glad knowledgeable people are taking care of this, but that's about it from my perspective. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:44, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Siliguri

I understand the touting rules, but could you explain how does stating that a hotel is convenient for visiting a nearby destination considered touting? If I state that a hotel in London is convenient for visiting the British Museum or a hotel in New York convenient for visiting the Statue of Liberty, would you call it touting? If so, why? If not, then how does stating that a hotel is conveniently located for visiting to destinations that travelers to the area are very likely to be heading. Thank you for your counsel. 113.53.170.184 10:13, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I would call that touting, unless the hotel is literally right next to the British Museum, and in the latter case, I feel pretty confident that there is no hotel on Liberty Island, so that would absolutely be touting. But I don't think that if you had read Wikivoyage:Don't tout, you'd be asking me these questions, because they're very clearly answered there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:26, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Right here:

• Avoid assertions of proximity to nearby attractions. The description section of a listing is for describing that listing, not the rest of the town (...conveniently located near <insert name of every major tourist attraction within the city>). If it's attached to the convention center or right on the pier then note that using the "directions" field of the listing template, but otherwise save descriptions of the area's attractions for the "See" section. Instead, contribute detailed lat-long coordinates of the property (see Wikivoyage:Geocoding)—it will be much more helpful for a traveler choosing a place to stay.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:28, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but there is a traveler comes first convention. And, if I arrived in a large city, I would often choose the place I stay with regard to its convenience to my intended destination. For example, in Delhi many travelers stay in Paraganj because it is convenient for New Delhi Station. Others, who are heading to Himachal and Ladakh, will often choose the Tibetan colony where the buses for those areas arrive and depart. Should that fact be omitted because it might be considered touting, even though it would be helpful to the travelers and will save them from researching this information on other sites? Thank you for your response. 125.24.107.128 10:40, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Idea - how about if I just list one or two neighborhoods as being convenient for certain destination, and then that would save having to write it as information for each hotel - which I agree would be monotonous. Thanks you for your advise. 125.24.107.128 11:06, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's a good idea. Please go ahead and do that. By the way, sorry for reacting so sharply to you earlier; it's just that there are so many marketers who come here to tout that one tends to get short with them. It would also facilitate easy communication with you if you chose to register instead of having different IPs, but that's completely up to you. Thanks for being constructive. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:30, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Ok, I'll do that... No problem about your response. You are doing a great job and I'm sure that there must be a lot of marketers and even contributors who push the limits. 125.24.102.25 05:03, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Central Namibia

Hi Ikan Kekek, just a short feedback on the maintenance template you added to Central Namibia: Visitors to Namibia do not normally visit towns, there's nothing to see there. They rather drive from one landmark to the next, using towns to fill up petrol and supplies. As there is not yet much content for Namibia I added the {{sleep}} entries to the regional article, which was pretty empty before. Technically they would belong to the Uis proclaimed settlement, which is a red link, or better to the Brandberg tourist destination, which likewise does not yet exist. If you have advise on how to expand I would much appreciate it - it seems I'm currently the only one writing about Namibia. Cheers, Pgallert (talk) 20:21, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

I see your point. So maybe an exception should be made to the guideline to not have full listings in a region article. But if so, I think you should put an introduction into the "Sleep" section, stating that aside from accommodations in the cities listed here, particularly Windhoek and whichever other ones have the most hotels, there are also places to sleep that are in the bush, far from anywhere else, and those are listed below. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:54, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

There might be another option. There could be a "city" article for "Central Namibian bush", by analogy with articles like Anticosti (admittedly an island, which makes borders easier) and Rural Montgomery County. Could that work? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:18, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi Ikan Kekek, and thanks for the feedback. I just remember that I had a similar discussion before where I actually got the advice to add the {{sleep}} entries to the regional article, but all that is probably due to the overall little amount of content on Namibia. Once all the major listings are made, an article like Central Namibia would have several hundred listings, and that's probably not wanted.

I think the underlying issue is that someone made the distinction Northern / Central / Southern Namibia plus Caprivi when first adding content, and this separation is rather arbitrary. Namibians would refer to their administrative division, the Regions, of which there are 14. Touristically and in common speech there are only 10 regions, as the 4 regions of former Ovamboland are treated together (That's what Namibians would call "Northern Namibia"), and Kavango East and West would just be "Kavango". Within the Regions the broader attractions could be separated. So the listings I added yesterday would be in an article "Brandberg", that's the attraction, and Brandberg would feature as link in "Erongo", the region. The towns would come extra (e.g. "Uis", also in Erongo), as even the most solitary travelling group needs to stock up on supplies occasionally. I could reorganise the content in this way, I just want to be reasonably sure that it is not all reverted back with a comment 'we do that differently here' ;)

Please let me know what you think about this. Thanks again, Pgallert (talk) 07:26, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Regional organization should be whatever is most useful to the traveller. I would suggest that you propose this regional division at Talk:Namibia and see if everyone else is happy to give you free rein to do this (as I am). It would also be good to point to the discussion from the Travellers' pub and Requests for comment, and a new map will have to be created to reflect the new regional divisions, so a WV:Requests for maps post might be useful once a consensus has developed in favor of your proposal. 10 regions are fine to list in an article, though if you feel like it makes sense to make the 10 subregions of larger regions, that's fine, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:35, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks again for the feedback. A map from Commons would be good enough, too, I guess. --Pgallert (talk) 12:16, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Definitely, if it already has the boundaries you want to use. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:12, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Images

Hi. Thanks for your message. I understand your point. But i'm not bunching anything... The situation is simplier. I put the images near the writen subjects. There are not many images of bars, restaurants, stores. In the other hand, there is a good amount of good images of museums, avenues, parks. So the result could be graphically umbalanced, but according to my view, this is a normal situation in a project like this. --Pedro Felipe (talk) 11:47, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

The result is bunching. Don't think about putting everything in the section where it's discussed. The result will be for nearly all photos to be in the "See" and "Do" sections. Thanks. And please keep in mind, while everyone's views are important, as a Wiki, the style of each article, though of course with input from all who edit it, should follow the Wikivoyage:Manual of style. You can always suggest a change to, in this case, Wikivoyage:Image policy, by starting a thread at Wikivoyage talk:Image policy in support of putting images in the section where the attractions or activities they show are mentioned, in spite of the bunching that will result. See if you can convince a new consensus to support your view. But in the meantime, please help maintain the existing guidelines as long as they continue to represent a consensus. It'll save someone else from doing the work and show how helpful and collegial you are. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:03, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

The result is I don't want to be patronised this way... I was excited about this project, but frankly no thanks... Keep it as you want it !!! --Pedro Felipe (talk) 12:15, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Well, I actually thought you were supposed to generally put images in the section to which they were related. If possible, I think that's a good idea, but if it results in one section having too many pictures and another section having few or none, it's sensible to move some pictures to other sections, according to Ikan Kekek's comment above. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:41, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Looking at the article in question, the main two problems I see are the following:

1. Some images are left aligned; we generally align images to the right on Wikivoyage.
2. The article has too many images, some of which should be removed.

Making changes according to these two problems should solve the general problem, in my opinion. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:01, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately, Pedro doesn’t seem interested in solving the problem, or working as part of a team, and has undone his own edits. Presumably, the image situation is now as it was. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:45, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

I've taken a run at sorting out the images. Pedro added some good images, but they did need some tidying up. I took out a few that were not very interesting. I don't think there are too many pictures now, but there are two of the Metrocable, so one could be dropped if others think there are still too many.

I hope that Pedro reconsiders and continues to contribute, but he'll have to get used to the idea that other people will edit his work. Ground Zero (talk) 16:29, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

I think that's a lot more reasonable. Still, "See" and "Do" are picture-heavy compared to the rest of the article, but overall the pictures are now formatted in a much better. I also hope to see Pedro continue to contribute. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:34, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Pedro Felipe, I'm sorry you think that working by consensus is "patronizing". I took the time to explain how this Wiki works. Like the others, I hope you reconsider and choose to work here collaboratively. But of course, that's your choice. If you'd rather work individually, I hope you publish a terrific blog, and if you do, feel free to link it at Talk:Medellin. Either way, Merry Christmas if you're celebrating. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:22, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Construction costs

Regarding your edit summary for this edit, to make a long story short, yes. The guy who writes www.pedestrianobservations.com (who seems to have some kind of connection to NYC) has shown in several blog posts that US construction costs are abnormally high and he tries to find reasons for why that is. He also explicitly compares to Sweden and other countries of varying income levels. Interestingly the level of general wages seems to not affect construction costs... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:57, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. This is really strange. I wonder why. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:40, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Pinyin

Just as a clarification on pinyin, I believe the Chinese in mainland China learn it in school because that's how they type in Chinese. If you use the Chinese input system, you type the pinyin, and that will give you a list of characters, from which you pick the right character. I am quite proficient in pinyin myself, but because the same pinyin can correspond to many characters, and also because I am just more used to reading Chinese characters, it does feel awkward to read a text entirely in pinyin.

In Hong Kong, because people don't learn Cantonese romanisation, they of course can't type in the same way. So what people do is that they buy an electronic writing pad for their computer and a handwriting recognition software for Chinese characters. That's how they are able to "type" in Chinese. The dog2 (talk) 05:14, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

That matches my experience. People in mainland China do learn pinyin in school, and pinyin-based input systems are the most popular way to type Chinese. There are also some stroke-based character input systems that are used by many people here—anecdotally, my experience is that people whose native dialect isn't Mandarin are more likely than native Mandarin speakers to use these stroke-based systems. —Granger (talk · contribs) 05:59, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

And if I'm not wrong, people in Taiwan use a different system called zhuyin or BoPoMoFo, but you'll either need a special keyboard, or have to memorise how the keys are mapped in order to do that. The dog2 (talk) 06:37, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

This is all really interesting. My experience on trips to China in 1987 and 2004 was that it was totally useless to show anyone Pinyin. They could understand only characters, and even if they understood English, they didn't know Pinyin. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:39, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

My sense is that nowadays it might be useful if you're writing a single word (for instance, the name of a city) and there are a lot of context clues. I'm judging based on the fact that my students here in Shenzhen seem generally able to figure out words like "Chengdu" and "baozi" in an English sentence. It might also vary by location or age – most of my students are under 30, and Shenzhen is a relatively cosmopolitan city. I'd guess that most Chinese people can write pinyin more easily than they can understand it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:16, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Because they use a different system, people in Taiwan don't learn pinyin, so writing pinyin is virtually useless if you're trying to communicate with a Taiwanese.

In mainland China, the younger people know pinyin, but it's still awkward because the meaning can be ambiguous if you don't write out the Chinese characters. Moreover, people are just so used to reading texts in Chinese characters that reading a text entirely in pinyin feels weird. For the older generation without computer literacy, they probably wouldn't know pinyin since they wouldn't have any use for it. And Granger is right about people finding it easier to write than understand pinyin. That is exactly the case for me. The dog2 (talk) 09:45, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Cabarete

It should be made clear that there are many apartment complexes and "resorts" (I use the word in quotes because there are actually only two resorts in Cabarete) that have completely separate businesses located on nearby property. Since addresses are not the same as they are in developed countries, many small businesses have to use larger businesses as a reference point or as their address. If you google many places in Cabarete, the directions will say something like: make a left at the big tree. Even Google My Business has a very hard time verifying businesses in Cabarete because there is no way to receive a postcard at a "business address." So although it might seem like there are several items being added to one "resort" often that is not the case. This is not always true, since a few hotels do have "in-house" restaurants, but more often than not they are separate entities with totally separate owners. --SocialZealot (talk) 04:47, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I read your post at Talk:Cabarete. Thanks for explaining. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:59, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

No problem and thank you. I am new to writing for wiki, but I am not new to writing in general. I have also been living in Cabarete for 7 years, so I think I can be a good contributor when I have time to edit and detail. I have now taken some time to read the rules, some of which I did not realize I was breaking. Also would like to note that I did not delete a competitor listing for Kite Buen Hombre. I deleted a listing that is not in Cabarete. Rather, it is in Buen Hombre which is more than 3 hours away from Cabarete. So in reality that listing is trying to get around the rules by using a more popular page. You can click the link yourself for the listing and see what the website reads. Then maybe you will want to delete the listing out of correctness for the article. I will leave it alone. --SocialZealot (talk) 05:29, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Last item then I will leave you alone. I did not write the touting information for kite beach. That was already there along with a lot of other "touting" as it is called. That is partially why I didn't realize some of the rules I was breaking. I have gone through the article and done my best to remove that sort of language, while not changing the meaning behind what was written.--SocialZealot (talk) 05:35, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Please feel free to go ahead and re-delete, with an explanation in your edit summary (you can write that in the box marked "Summary" below your edit window). I'm sorry I mistook what you were doing. Thanks for working with me and others. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:37, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

^{Philadelphia Winter Landscape, by Thomas Birch,
oil on canvas, circa 1830-1845, in the collection of
Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía, Madrid, Spain.}

Thank you for all you do for WikiVoyage
and your help throughout the year!

Zcarstvnz (talk) 11:18, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, that's very nice of you! Pretty painting, too. Happy New Year to you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:31, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Question about Wikipedia sidebar

Hello, I worked on the Brownsville, Texas Wikivoyage page several years ago. I noticed that several articles on Wikipedia have a sidebar where the Wikivoyage link has a star next to it (In other projects section). When I hover the mouse to the star, it either says "recommended article" or "good article". By any chance, does Brownsville qualify to have a star designated next to its Wikipedia sidebar. One article with the "good article" star had a "usable" ranking. De88 (talk) 01:27, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

How are you? Nice to hear from you. I really don't know anything about these links in Wikipedia, though. Might be a good topic for the Pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:22, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

I've been good. I just noticed that the Brownsville page has a green checkmark for being featured as an Off the Beaten Path location. I completely forgot it was featured there. Thank you so much for the suggestion. I will post on there. De88 (talk) 04:12, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Certainly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:13, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Bay Area and free refills

You seemed to have an interest in this, and from my experience, they will do it for water but not for soft drinks. I'm not sure where you wanted that information incorporated into the American cuisine article, or if you wanted it to be included at all, but if you do, that's my experience. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:56, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

The only way I really have interest in that is that we shouldn't make it seem like free refills of soda are more widespread nationwide than they are. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:05, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Definitely. I did not intend to say that there are free soft drink refills in the Bay Area. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:31, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Drinking as much soda as you like while paying just for one glass is not very common for example here in Europe (buffets at Baltic Sea ferries are almost the only places that come to my mind) and I was surprised to see it at a normal fast food restaurant (McDonalds in Las Vegas) on my first visit to the US. So I believe free soft drink refills still comparatively more common in the US than many other parts in the world, and therefore it could be useful to mention it in the American cuisine article. ϒψιλον (talk) 21:33, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, but carefully. I've experienced this only in the South. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:49, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Petrol in Bolivia

Thanks for the update and comment on my petrol-related edit for Bolivia. I think lead in petrol is not healthy anywhere - that's why we have unleaded fuel. Bolivia is a developing country, so this problem may not be a top-priority. For a short-term visitor it may not harm much, but I thought letting to know is fine. Some readers may decide to spend more time in Bolivia (say, living there half a year or a year, instead of visiting in a month) - for them the problem gets bigger. I think, we can't do much about it as tourists (smog mask would probably not help, as these may be a different type of particles), but who knows - maybe people will come up with clever ways to deal with that, and add suggestions? Aurimaz (talk) 05:39, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Completely understood. That's why I moved the information to the "Stay healthy" section. At least I think I remember doing that (maybe I put it in "Stay safe", in the absence of a "Stay healthy" section). It just doesn't belong in "Cope". Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:37, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Promotional edits identified for Sadhana Forest article

Hi Ikan,

Thank you very much for your message and for informing us about the disapproval of our edits.

We deeply apologize for not following the WikiVoyage guidelines. We had no intention of trying to market ourselves, but were just unfortunately unaware of the guidelines.

We have since read the help articles and have completely rewritten our post to be as factual and helpful to travelers as possible. We believe that the new article fully complies with the guidelines. If you agree, we would like to recreate our post as we feel information about Sadhana Forest would be useful for travelers. Sadhana Forest receives over 20,000 visitors a year. The idea to be featured on WikiVoyage for the benefit of travelers came from some of them.

Thank you very much for your time and consideration and for the great work.

Kind regards,

Aviram Rozin Sadhana Forest (talk) 06:42, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I would suggest for you to post a listing in the article for the nearest town. If there is really too much content to contain in a single listing, the idea of a separate article might be considered. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:35, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Commas in numbers

Is it obligatory to use a comma in a four-door number? I agree that it is clearer, but I was always taught that it was optional. I haven't been able to find an authoritative source on this. Thekipedia Manual of Style takes this approach [47]. While our style manual doesn't mention four-door numbers specifically, it does require a comma separator generally, so I guess it's Wikivoyage style, but many contributors aren't au fait with all of our formatting rules. Ground Zero (talk) 12:08, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Interesting. So then some people have actually been taught that it's optional with 4-digit numbers. Maybe I should give up my crusade on this and go back to hyphenating the hyphenated adjectives with no hyphens... Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:57, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I never put a comma in a four digit number, but mostly do for numbers of five digits or more. This is not consciously based on anything I've been taught, but perhaps it's a convention I've grown up with. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:44, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Hyphenating hyphenless hyphenated adjectives is truly the work of the righteous. Ground Zero (talk) 21:27, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

User:Lo Ximiendo

Some very troubling racist/Islamophobic dog-whistling on this user page. Following the ArticCynda rationale, I'd argue a userban is warranted, though I'm not 100% sure of that because it's not quite as blatant as that. What do you think? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:53, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Keep an eye on the user's edits to mainspace by all means - I certainly shall. You can even ask the user to change what's on their user page into something more positive, though I'd caution against that given the user has caused no trouble other than what looks like an unpleasant blip two years ago, which was in any case significantly less serious than what we saw with ArticCynda. Furthermore, banning them for said blip, when there has been no notable impact on the user's work on the travel guide since (unlike with AC), is not justified and should not be pursued. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:15, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Anyone can see what s/he posted at Talk:Marseille and how I responded. But I agree with ThunderingTyphoons!: Let's leave well enough alone. This happened in 2016, and that's how old the outgoing message on her/his userpage is, too. I see no purpose in suddenly picking a fight with this user; on the contrary, it would harm the site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:48, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Okay, no user block, but should the problematic content on the user page be deleted? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:22, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Wouldn't that lead into "picking a fight" territory? Unless you're also going to delete what's written at Talk:Marseille, there wouldn't be any benefit to deleting the user page stuff, and potentially would cause some harm by reigniting an argument unnecessarily. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:04, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

IMO it's not a good look for the site for that kind of thing to remain unchallenged. But if the consensus is against taking action, then I'm okay with that. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:17, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree that it's best to ignore what's on her/his user page unless there's ever a new reason to pay attention to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:56, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

"Tag: Account with unregistered email"

Hi, when I make edits to articles then look at my contributions, a weird tag appears saying "Account with unregistered email". Is it mandatory for all registered users to have an established email address? I forgot to put mine. YoungBrotha33 (talk) 15:42, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

It's not mandatory, but we have had a lot of edits from vandals who don't register their email addresses, so it gives you more credibility to do so. Your choice, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:24, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

What ID to use if not a passport?

In many countries there is universal photo ID (sadly, it is not "opt-in" or "free" in most of them, which imho would be ideal) and thus a person who comes from most EU countries drives and travels outside the Schengen Area usually has (at least) three forms of ID - national ID, driver's license and passport. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:59, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

This is a picture ID with a birth date? Then it might be OK for ID, but in the article in question, we are told:

Don't be surprised if a foreign ID is treated with suspicion or outright rejected, as youth often use fake IDs from out of state to try and hide flaws in a forgery.

So if you are being recommended not to use a foreign ID, yet you also are told not to use your passport, what's left? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:02, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

EU Driver's License (From Croatia) state issued ID (from Spain). I think they should be acceptable. They are at least when "carded" domestically. But Americans being rather... ahem... "insular" at times, they might cause a bit of a baffled reaction... Even though they are likely much harder to be faked than US ID... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:09, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

I see. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:11, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Howdy! Sorry, I didn't really think my original edit through too much, and I agree Ikan's point (You need to identify with Something.). The opinion I was trying to express is that basically anything that isn't an ID/Drivers Licence from a nearby state will be scrutinized more heavily, and might be rejected if the bouncer is not convinced (Might be less of an issue now that most bouncers probably own smartphones and can search for what a tourist ID looks like). I've heard of legitimate ID's being confiscated, but I've never actually seen it, so I retracted part of my edit to just contact the local police should an ID be confiscated, since it seems like a rare possibility that would be a serious issue if it were to occur. I'm not really sure if this is even warranted in the article at all, but a mention of American alcohol laws seemed prudent. Hope this helps. Mbrickn (talk) 22:46, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Sure. Thanks, Mbrickn. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:51, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Cote d'Ivoire

When I was in West Africa and in Cote d'Ivoire, the English-speaking travellers I met all called it Cote d'Ivoire. No-one called it Ivory Coast. It's true that that was in 1990. Maybe things have changed, but I doubt it. Ground Zero (talk) 01:55, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

OK, fair enough. Of course, I would call it that, too. But then I speak French. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:57, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Madam

With regard to the use of "Madam" in the U.S., don't you guys still address Nancy Pelosi as "Madam Speaker"? And I've never been corrected on this, but whenever I write e-mails for work and I don't know who the recipient is going to be on the other side, I usually address as to "Dear Sir/Madam". The dog2 (talk) 17:51, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

In that context as a title, yes, but not as just "madam" with no name attached. Sure, you can get by with it, but I think it's quite old-fashioned. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:03, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

It is used in the South, the armed forces and law enforcement. Not as "Madam" but as "Ma'am"... as in "Yes, Ma'am" and "No, Ma'am". Philaweb (talk) 20:16, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Ma'am can be used in the North, too. We don't usually use it, but it's OK. The one problem is that sometimes, a young woman may be put off by it, which is why you might use "Miss", but that's not free of potential problems, either (some young women might find it dismissive). I think the questions about these kinds of words reflect the flux that women's roles are in. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:34, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

As I understand it the word Ma'am is best used when directed at a senior (as in older than you). The word has a certain submissiveness to it. I agree that when saying Ma'am to a young(er) woman it might be misunderstood. If you don't know who will receive the e-mail/letter at the other end, it is perhaps better to address it to "who(m) it may concern". Philaweb (talk) 20:48, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, or "Dear [name of company] Team/Personnel/Whatever". I don't think "Ma'am" has to be older than you if you're not a youngster, though. I'm 54 and could certainly say "Excuse me, Ma'am" to a woman who looked 45-50. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:13, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

For me, I don't find it disrespectful to address a young woman as "Miss". If I'm not wrong, that's how a servant will address the master's daughter, which indicates respect for a woman who is younger but of a higher status than you. But perhaps things have changed in recent times. Mx. Granger deleted "Miss" that I added as a form of address and said that it could be offensive to some women. Should we put that back? Personally, I've never come across anyone who got offended because I addressed her as "Miss". The dog2 (talk) 21:31, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

You know a lot of people with servants? I don't. I don't know what to say about "Miss". I think it's better than "Yo!" or "Hey, you!" in most situations and better than "Ma'am" when you're dealing with a younger-than-middle-aged woman. I would have left it in, but I don't know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:35, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

I personally don't know anyone with servants, but that's something I've just gathered from watching TV shows. Let's wait for Granger to respond and see what he says about that. But from personal experience, unless that woman is a particularly sensitive one, I've never encountered any issues with either "Ma'am" or "Miss". I generally follow the same convention as you by addressing an older woman as "Ma'am" and a younger woman as "Miss". Some people may think it's sexist because men of all ages are addressed as "Sir", but for now I think we should just stick to accepted conventions, and we can revisit this if conventions change in the future. The dog2 (talk) 21:43, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

In New York, we usually omit any titles and just say "Excuse me" or "Hi" and then ask our question. But don't base any of your opinions on current usage on what you see in movies or TV shows. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:48, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘With regard to English language varieties, the situation is somewhat different in Britain. "Madam" is the normal polite way to address a woman whose name you don't know, though of course is rather formal. It's the feminine form of "Sir".

By contrast, "Ma'am" is reserved for two situations: ranked organisations (i.e. police and armed forces); the proper form of address for the Queen (after first using "Your Majesty"). Why these two more high-level situations use the abbreviated form of the word is a mystery to me.

The only times I've ever called a woman "Miss" is in school. Some teachers didn't like it, but the majority were fine with it.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:05, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Since the 1980s, "Ms." has been used for female teachers a lot, at least in New York City. Before that, "Mrs." was common unless the teacher indicated she preferred "Miss". Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:32, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

I meant "Miss" as a standalone address. So e.g. "Miss, I don't get it.", "Miss, can I have a pen?", rather than Miss as a title e.g. "Miss Havisham."--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:58, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

When I was in New York City, the bus drivers addressed me as "Sir". I did also hear them addressing some younger women as "Miss". The dog2 (talk) 00:13, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Sure. "Miss" as a standalone for teachers is unacceptable in the U.S. You need to call them by their last name: "Miss Johnson" or whatever. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:46, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm currently traveling, so I may not participate much in this discussion. But I think standalone "miss" can sound a little demeaning in some situations, so for a travel guide it's better to recommend "ma'am", which will never cause offense as far as I know, than to ask the reader to try to figure out what situations "miss" is appropriate in. Usage by servants and other unusual or old-fashioned situations are irrelevant, I think. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:46, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand why you think calling a young woman "Ma'am" couldn't cause offense. A lot of women think that if they're young, they shouldn't be called "Ma'am", or has that changed for the youngest generations? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:16, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, some women can be quite sensitive in this case. It's the same dilemma when calling a woman pregnant and it turns out she is obese or vice versa. In some places Ma'am will create a distance between you and the person, especially being a man (much) older than the woman. The word Miss actually means that she is not married, and some women think that it is none of your business. Mrs are for married women, but what about devorcees and people living paperless (or whatever the correct legal term is)? Philaweb (talk) 16:30, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

To my knowledge, whether it's in the US or the UK, you never address a woman with a standalone "Mrs". "Mrs" is always used only as a title, as in "Mrs Smith". And addressing a woman with a standalone "Miss" is no indication of marital status. It only implies that she's not married if you use it as a title, as in "Miss Johnson". And speaking of which, I had a teacher who insisted that we use "Miss" with her maiden surname to address her even though she was married, so this depends between individuals. And my understanding is that "Madam" is generally used as a title when you address married women by their maiden surname.

Of course, there are special exceptions to this rule. When I was in the military, any enlisted personnel, sergeant or warrant officer would address a female commissioned officer as "Ma'am" no matter what their ages were. So yes, that means that a 50-year-old warrant officer is required address an 18-year-old female commissioned officer as "Ma'am". And in the case of the Speaker of the House in either the US Congress or UK Parliament, a female speaker is always addressed as "Madam Speaker" regardless of her age or marital status, and I believe a hypothetical female US president would always be addressed as "Madam President" no matter what. The dog2 (talk) 17:34, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Your set of skills are much better than mine if you know the surnames of random women. "Please, Miss" or "Please, Ma'am" is all I can say when I hold the door for them. Philaweb (talk) 18:13, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I don't think you'll ever walk up to a woman and say "Excuse me, Mrs". That's just weird. It's either "Excuse me, Miss" or "Excuse me, Ma'am". You only ever use "Mrs" with the surname, as in "Mrs Smith", but never on its own, so if you don't know the woman's name, you just don't use "Mrs". The dog2 (talk) 18:27, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Mrs Smileyface always works... but then again, that's not a good replacement for Ma'am. Philaweb (talk) 18:40, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Incorrect posting corrected

Hi Ikan,

I have resubmitted the posting after the corrections suggested in your review. Please let me know.

Thanks, Vinayak Gadkari. devrai.farmhouse Devrai.farmhouse (talk) 10:44, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Question about media?

Is it possible for me to pass my knowledge to the media?—The preceding comment was added by Njabrizzy (talk • contribs)

Hi @Njabrizzy: It is not at all clear what you're asking. Would you mind elaborating? Also, please sign your talk page posts with 4 tildes like this: ~~~~.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:00, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, if you (not Thundering) are a troll, at least you're offbeat and different, I'll give you that. If you're not a troll: You're aware that this is a travel guide, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:48, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Voice types

Hey there. With regard to voice types, I think we should give a brief overview on basic terminology. Of course there is the potential to differentiate say, a lyric soprano from a coloratura soprano, or to go into how Baroque tenor roles differ from Romantic tenor roles, but I fear that doing so will be going off on a tangent and deviating from our purpose as a travel guide. In my opinion, we should cover just enough so someone can read a playbill or synopsis and understand the terms that are likely to come up. The dog2 (talk) 17:42, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

OK, but if we're doing it, we can't ignore mezzo-sopranos and baritones. It would probably work better to put those in order with the voices of the 4-voice choirs, instead of treating them separately. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:11, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

That works for me too. And by the way, should we also cover the term "alto"? My understanding is that while a solo female singer in that range would be called a "mezzo-soprano", the choral equivalent of that range is called "alto", hence the term SATB chorus. The dog2 (talk) 18:42, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

That's not true at all. Alto is short for contralto. Soloists are called either. Alto has a generally lower tessitura and definitely a darker sound than mezzo-soprano. These things aren't cut-and-dried, so my mezzo-soprano girlfriend typically sings alto parts in chorus and can sing some arias and songs sopranos also sing, but there is generally a difference. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:17, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

And by the way, do you know much about opera and ballet etiquette? I haven't gone to the opera or ballet for a number of years now, but my understanding is that when the singer finishes an aria, you should applaud, and if the performance was particularly good, you should shout "bravo" if it's a man or "brava" if it's a woman. And after a chorus, I believe you should should shout "bravi", unless it's an all-female chorus, then it would be "brave". Or is that all supposed to come at the end of the performance? If you're familiar with this, I was wandering if you could write a "Respect" section as it would be helpful for people who wish to attend such performances.

And as a side note, I have noticed one major difference between operas and ballets on one hand, and musicals on the other. In operas and ballets, at the end of the performance, one of the performance will go into the orchestra pit and lead the conductor on stage to take his/her bows together with the rest of the cast. On the other hand, in musicals, only the actors will take their bow on stage, and the conductor will typically only acknowledge the audience from the pit. The dog2 (talk) 04:26, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I can comment. The main difference is really between classical instrumental concerts and opera/musicals/ballets. When I play jazz, people applaud for me after my solos, but that never happens when I play a solo in a Brahms symphony. However, as you said, it's customary to applaud when singers perform an aria, duet or ensemble number well in an opera. It's not obligatory to clap, but you can if you're feeling it, and likewise, if you feel inspired, you can shout "Bravo" in any of its 4 variations. I definitely could write a "Respect" section, but I have some biases, as a performer and (currently non-practicing) teacher of music. I think it's totally unnecessary to dress up to go to a concert (though of course you shouldn't try to show up in a formal concert hall topless or in rags), but I do recognize that this varies from place to place. I also think it's completely appropriate to laugh when the music is funny - some Haydn symphonies are hilarious! But it's really rude to laugh because a performer is screwing up. Anyway, I won't start the section tonight, as I'm tired and not feeling inspired to write it, but though I have mixed feelings about it, I think it's a good idea and potentially useful to some traveler somewhere. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:39, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Speaking of laughing, you absolutely should laugh if you are watching Giuseppe Scarlatti's Dove è amore è gelosia, because the plot is really quite ridiculous, and it is hilarious if the singers get their acting right. And I believe Haydn's Orlando Paladino and Mozart's Die Zauberflöte have some funny parts too. And on a personal note, I hope you get to play in a performance of Mozart's Die Zauberflöte one day, as I must say that the flute solos in that opera are really quite exquisite. The dog2 (talk) 05:44, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

I've performed it before. Yes, of course, Mozart is always a pleasure to play! Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:06, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Re: [Late reply] Edits for Indonesia 2018

I just saw your note on in my user talk page about my updates for Indonesia and Nusa Tenggara. Thanks for the note indeed, less surprise or disappointment. I have no problem with the edits that you made. I have left the country by now, but I hope my contribution will help other travelers to the region. I have asked a few travelers, it seems WikiVoyage has not been as popular as WikiTravel yet. —The preceding comment was added by Sunnyf (talk • contribs)

The global Alexa statistics posted daily at Wikivoyage and Wikitravel show that. I hope you enjoyed your trip to Indonesia! Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:05, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

welcome business people

What do you think about a welcome substitute template for business users? {{welcomebusiness}}. I tent to forget were the useful page references are. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:19, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, good idea. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:22, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Also like it. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:02, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

1-800-Autopsy?!?

This has got to be the strangest spambot I've ever seen on Wikivoyage. What in the world would make them think a travel guide is a good place to advertise this particular service? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:19, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, truly weird! Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Or could it be some insane vandal? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:57, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

It seemed like advertising and had an apparent URL in it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:58, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

I've taken a closer look now. Honestly, I have no clue who would do this and why. It's a little ironic, because, you know, an autopsy doesn't seem like the kind of product that would have a lot of living customers... --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:57, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Au contraire, it has only living customers. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:00, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, at some point along the way, I guess! --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 04:15, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Zionism

Just as a reply to your comment, my understanding is that many of the earliest proponents of Zionism, with David Ben-Gurion perhaps being the most prominent example, were secular Jews, while most Orthodox Jews were opposed to Zionism at the time of the founding of the State of Israel, as they believed that the founding has to be done by the Messiah. While it may be true that most Orthodox Jews eventually changed their stance and are staunch Zionists today, my understanding is that the Neturei Karta, who are a very strict Chasidic sect, have maintained their opposition to Zionism. So what I was trying to say is that there is not necessarily a direct correlation between religiosity and Zionism, as many staunch Zionists are secular Jews (and Evangelical Christians), while there are Orthodox groups that are opposed to Zionism. The dog2 (talk) 20:34, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Historically, of course you're right that most of the early Zionists were secular socialists. Nowadays, though, the most hard-line Zionists are often Orthodox, though not always. The bigger non-Zionist sect is the Satmarers (Neturei Karta is tiny and the Satmarers are the biggest of all Chasidic sects in the U.S., if not in the world), whereas the Lubavitchers are strongly Zionist. And before the Holocaust, the anti-Zionist position was the majority position among the world Jewish community, with the Bundists, a secular culturally Jewish socialist party (the link is to an article about the Bund in Poland, but there were corresponding movements elsewhere), being the largest Jewish party in the world. So I think that giving examples is fine, but overgeneralization or the implication of such is problematic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:50, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

In that case, please adjust to what you feel is more accurate. I was not trying to imply that there is an inverse correlation either, because I know that is not true. I am aware than Ben Shapiro is an Orthodox Jew who is a hard-line Zionist, while Bernie Sanders is a secular Jew who is very critical of Netanyahu's government in Israel (although I won't go so far as to call him anti-Zionist). While I won't be getting into a political debate on this here, I think you would probably be aware of the recent controversy regarding Somali-American congresswoman Ilhan Omar, and I noticed that there were both secular and Orthodox Jews who condemned her, and there were also both secular and Orthodox Jews who defended her. The dog2 (talk) 20:55, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

That's because of her allusions to specifically anti-Jewish tropes, not her anti-Zionist positions. I wasn't much offended by any of her tweets and think she is well-intentioned, but even some anti-Zionist Jews were offended. So I don't think that's at all relevant to who is and isn't Zionist. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:08, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

I read the context and decided the entire sentence was irrelevant, because it wasn't about the status of Zionism or identity of Zionists in 2019. I don't think we really need to cover that in an article about Judaism, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:12, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Speaking of which, in light of the aforementioned controversy, would you say that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an exceptionally hot-button issue in the U.S. that we should warn people about in the "Respect" section, or would you say that we need not warn people specifically of it since it is no more sensitive than any other political issue? The dog2 (talk) 22:34, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Like other controversial issues, it really depends who you're talking to and how you're talking about it. I wouldn't support any blanket warning. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:36, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

And by who, I don't mean all American Jews. Many of us are happy to express our opinions and have a respectful discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:36, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I wasn't implying that this is a sensitive issue only to Jews. I am aware that the U.S. also has a Muslim community, and that there are actually more Christian Zionists than Jews in U.S. And I am most certainly aware that the American Jewish community has a wide range of opinions on this issue. The dog2 (talk) 00:06, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that it's like any other controversial issue. Some Americans don't give a damn about it one way or the other, some have clear opinions but are happy to have a respectful conversation with you if you disagree, and some are irrational or feel like you are attacking them just by bringing it up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:25, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I see what you mean. In any case, what you said applies to people from all countries and not just Americans. At least you won't be arrested for voicing a dissident political opinion in the U.S., while that is a very real risk in many other countries. The dog2 (talk) 01:31, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, we still have that freedom, at least for now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:32, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Valley of 1000 Hills

Please do not rush to edit after someone else changes a page. Make in browser bookmarks and come back a few hours later. I spent a long time making many changes then lost because you edited. I will leave it to you know, suggest changing to city article. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:56, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

You lost them because of edit conflicts? I'm sorry. But just in case you didn't know, that's not an insuperable problem. When you see "Edit conflict", you can get the text back simply by using the back arrow. But a long time? I'm confused. I didn't spend a long time on that article, I thought. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:15, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Based on the time stamps, I spent less than 5 minutes editing that page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:17, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

And I already did my bit and finished whatever I was going to do. I won't edit that page for the rest of the night. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:20, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

What I mean is I spend some time reformatting the whole page. Moved other destinations to See and added some coordinates, moved other text and made a city page. Back would have lost your edits. All I am saying is do not jump on another persons edits, chances are they are not finished. There should be plenty of other pages that can be edited. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:22, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

I could have restored my edits by copying them from a previous version. I really can't tell when someone is finished editing, but what I'll try to do is remember that you may take some time to edit an article and do my best to account for that. Sorry, I patrol a lot and tend to look at articles that might interest me when I see them in recent changes, so it's a good and sometimes bad habit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:27, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Based on what the researchers have told me, waiting 30 minutes is usually enough. It won't always work (sometimes I'll have an editing window open for a whole day, or even longer), but half an hour is a decent, statistics-backed rule of thumb. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:46, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Suspected touting

Hello. Could you please take a look at this IP's contributions? He seems to be promoting his services. Thanks! Jianhui67 (talk) 17:58, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

User:Ibaman got to it first. Thanks for reporting that user.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:23, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Deleting Edits

Hi Ikan, thanks for the message. I don't mind doing things the way you guys do, but you didn't give me a chance to fix what I did wrong. After going through the effort of finding all the sites in Edomex they were deleted. I would have removed the links myself but now I can't. In the future I would suggest a 48 hour period for people to fix any mistakes they've made that way they won't get discouraged.

Dkallen78 14:56, 01 April 2019 (CST)

Are you talking about the deletion of the "City" redirect, or something else? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:16, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

@Dkallen78: Don't worry, the list isn't gone permanently. You can still access it in the article's history, so the work hasn't been lost. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:30, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I see. Dkallen78, here's the direct link to my edit, with all your links on the left. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:11, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Women in synagogues.

To answer your question, Singapore's Maghain Aboth Synagogue was initially built only for men, and the balcony was only added later so women could pray in the synagogue. I'm not sure if there are anymore extant synagogues that do not allow women in, but this example proves that they certainly existed at some point in history.

I'm not sure if it's an exclusively Baghdadi thing and doesn't apply to Ashkenazi Jews. It's most certainly true that most of the Ashkenazi Jews in Singapore are Western expatriates, and the small local Jewish population is largely Baghdadi. Both of Singapore's synagogues were built by Baghdadi Jews during the colonial era. The dog2 (talk) 04:34, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

OK, I take your point on this. But be careful not to seem to be making a general comment about small Orthodox synagogues throughout the world. It's always easy to make something a mechitzah (divider). Just put up a screen or whatever. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:41, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Name change of Astana to Nursultan

Hello.

Since the name of the Kazakhstani capital was officially changed to Nursultan, the article name and this name throughout English Wikivoyage should also be eventually changed. The now old name should stay in brackets for the forseeable future to avoid confusion. E.g. like the gradual renaming of Bombay to Mumbai, Madras to Chennai or Calcutta to Kolkata in every place after their official renaming. The new name of Astana should be in indicated in brackets or vice versa in other Wikivoyage articles. I hope that they are not many. :)

Yours sincerely, A2D2 (talk) 10:35, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Whenever we change the name of the city - and possibly to Nur-Sultan, rather than Nursultan, which is being debated on Wikipedia - I expect that the former name will be indicated not in brackets but simply in the lede as "formerly called Astana" and the other names it was formerly called. That's the way we've done things in similar cases. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Seinfeld and Jewishness

Hi. As you may know, I'm currently doing the last bits of work on the Seinfeld Tour article before its stint as FTT. I believe you'd mentioned earlier that you'd like to see some mention made of Seinfeld's roots in Jewish culture and humor. I think that's a good idea, and a possible way to integrate the Seinfeld tour with our article on Judaism, but I'd been debating how to work that in to the article. Finally I decided that the best way to do so would be as an infobox. As it happens, I have a bit of familiarity with the subject (a few birthdays ago, my wife bought me the book Seinfeld, Master of Its Domain: Revisiting Television's Greatest Sitcom which was not only a fascinating look at Seinfeld from an academic standpoint, including its connections to larger Jewish culture, but also a portal for me to begin exploring and appreciating the Jewish comedy that came before it), but I still see the fact that I'm not Jewish myself as a possible hindrance to a full understanding of the issue. So I'm wondering if you (and I should probably loop ARR8 in on this discussion too, as he's also Jewish and a contributor to the article) can take a look at what I wrote and give me your impression of it as two people with firsthand, lived experience of the Jewish culture that Seinfeld borrows from.

Here's what I wrote:

In its earliest seasons, internal communications among NBC president Brandon Tartikoff and other network executives criticized Seinfeld for being "too New York, too Jewish" and expressed concern about how the show would play in the more white-bread regions of Middle America. Clearly the suits were dead wrong, and of course the same is true to some degree of all comedy in the U.S. — it wouldn't be too much of an exaggeration to say the Borscht Belt is to today's overall American comic sensibility what the blues is to rock 'n' roll; inescapably the ultimate progenitor, no matter how far afield and in how many different directions its successors have taken things. But the degree to which Seinfeld lives and breathes Yiddishkeit is indeed striking. For one thing, a huge number of the people responsible for the show are Jews themselves: Jerry Seinfeld (the real person and his TV alter ego) and Larry David both are, as is Jason Alexander (who described his character, despite the Italian surname, as "obviously Jewish"), as are many of the bigwigs on the show's writing staff, such as Larry Charles, Peter Mehlman, and Carol Leifer. And, together, they've created a world for their characters replete with things like marble ryes and chocolate babkas, indiscreet rabbis and incompetent mohels, and ever-present echoes of their comedy forebears. The witty repartee among the foursome are essentially modern-day vaudeville routines. Kramer's slapstick pratfalls crib from Jerry Lewis. In fact, in an essay he published for the book Coming Out Jewish: Constructing Ambivalent Identities, Jon Stratton makes a convincing case that the relationship between Jerry and George is nothing more than a modern reading of the schlemiel and schlimazel stock characters that have been archetypes of Jewish comedy since the Middle Ages. This intrinsic Jewishness is palpable not only when you watch the show, but also as you take this tour, and it's worth keeping on the lookout for.

Looking forward to your (both of your) thoughts.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:24, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I think it's worth mentioning that, in this situation, there's probably not much in common between Jewish culture in the sitcom context and Judaism as a religion. But I may be wrong. As I understand it, that kind of humor is largely from Yiddish, a language, rather than the original Jewish roots in what is now Israel. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:14, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I thought it was settled that the purview of the Judaism article should extend beyond just the religious aspects into Jewish culture in a broad sense. The listing for the Catskills certainly talks enough about the old Borscht Belt comedians who used to perform there. Anyway, whether or not we make an attempt at folding any of this information into the Judaism article, my original intent in posting this to Ikan's talk page was to 1) attempt to satisfy his request for the Seinfeld Tour article to address the Jewish cultural aspects of the show and to 2) have someone with firsthand familiarity with said Jewish culture to look over what I wrote and ensure its accuracy. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I was only an occasional Seinfeld-watcher, but this looks good to me. And SelfieCity, Jews are not a religion but a people. The religion is Judaism, which is not really at issue in this discussion. I think Julia Louis-Dreyfus could also be mentioned as a descendant of Alsatian Jews through her father, although her mother was not Jewish. She could simply be called "half-Jewish", as many American Jews would say. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:51, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion, but what I was saying that in this context Jewish culture and Judaism don't have much in common; I'm not saying that Jewish culture is a part of the religion. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:57, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Like many non-Jews, I think you don't fully understand what Jewishness and Judaism really are (short version: you don't get it). Judaism is unlike most other current religions, but quite a lot like many ancient religions, in that it is the religion of a people, the people are called Jews, and the God was originally simply the most powerful local God of Israel. We're not talking about a religion like Christianity, which you can choose to be and cease to be based on matters of doctrine (primarily, whether you believe in Christ as your Savior and the Son of God). You can't choose under Jewish Law to cease to be Jewish (though you could formally convert out and lose most rights of membership), and atheists who are born Jewish are just as Jewish under Jewish Law as Chasidim in black hats. Jewish culture(s), being the culture(s) of Jewish people, cannot be divorced from an article about Judaism unless that article focused only on the religion, but if it did, it would be more in the nature of an encyclopedia article, rather than one about people. Moreover, there are many aspects of Jewish secular culture that are directly related to religious traditions. To take one example, Jews are well-known to be argumentative, that's largely true, and it derives directly from the tradition of pilpul - arguing points of Jewish Law. Similarly, that's why there are so many Jewish lawyers - interpreting points of secular law is in no way wholly dissimilar from interpreting points of sacred law. And quite a few of the greatest male opera singers have been Jews who started out as cantors in synagogues, a bit analogous to the background of African-American opera singers in Gospel churches. And if this brief discourse is insufficient for you to understand that trying to divorce the Jews from Judaism makes little sense, that's to be expected. Read up more on your own time, if you're interested. Literacy and writing are also an extremely long-standing part of Jewish culture, related to the centrality of the Torah as a text, so there certainly is no dearth of books by Jews, as well as non-Jews, about Jewish culture, religion, and the relationship between them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:01, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining, that helps. I see your point, and I'm sure you're right, so definitely I'll go along with whatever you think is best for the article. I just was under the view that Jewish culture (like its humor, for example) is not very closely connected with Judaism. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:39, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Would you say that nominal Christians in traditionally Christian countries are not much affected by the Christian religion culturally? I wouldn't. But there's a distinction between creed and people that doesn't really exist in Judaism. That's the difference. So while I don't know too much about the roots of Ashkenazic humor in religion, I don't think that matters for the purposes of a travel article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:53, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Makes sense. Thanks again for explaining. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:56, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Sure thing. Thanks for listening. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:59, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

@AndreCarrotflower: Coming a little late to this discussion, but the blurb sounds good to me. I'd also agree that Dreyfus could be mentioned if necessary. One thing I'd maybe add is some kind of mention of the New York City neighborhoods connected to the show, how they're historically Jewish demographically, etc., but I'd say it's good either way. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 16:20, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

I'd like to hear your honest opinion

Too strongly worded? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:39, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

IMO, not too strong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:09, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Evangelicals and Christian Zionism

I'm not going to start an edit war over this as it is a small issue, but I just wish to point out that I have met quite a number of Evangelical Christians, and all of them say that they want the Jews in Israel to kill or expel all the Arabs as part of fulfilling the Biblical prophecy to bring about the second coming of Jesus. If you watch the Vox and Al Jazeera documentaries on Christian Zionism, you'll know that I'm not making this up. And in fact, Netanyahu's settlements in the West Bank are funded in part by American Evangelical Christian groups. I know this may sound strange, but there are Evangelicals who are in fact Zionist and anti-Semitic at the same time. The dog2 (talk) 01:02, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm aware of all of this, but I think that the remaining statement makes the point sufficiently. Razing the mosques on the Temple Mount would incite a huge war extending beyond the Middle East. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:29, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't know this topic well, so I don't want anyone to value my opinions too strongly, but I think it's more likely that there's two separate types of Evangelical Christians, one that is pro-Israel and another that is anti-Semitic. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:46, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

I think some are actually both - they support the existence of Israel in the hope that it triggers the End Time, when all the Jews who don't accept Christ are wiped out. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:29, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Respect section in Musical Theatre

Just so you know, I have created the "Respect" section for the Musical theatre article. Since you are a professional musician, would you mind having a look at it to see if there is something I may have missed out? The dog2 (talk) 20:49, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

One thing that sticks out to me is overuse of the word "general(ly)". -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:44, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree that general(ly) is overused, but the larger problem is that expected behavior depends on the kind of musical. If it's a Gospel musical, would it be out of place to yell out "Sing it, Girl!" or "Amen!"? If it's a rock musical, would it be OK to cheer during a song? In both cases, it would probably be fine. Because it's so difficult and arguably unimportant to generalize, I'm not sure this section is really useful for the topic. People would do fine by just behaving like the rest of the crowd, and they needn't worry about what they're wearing, either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:53, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

This is my first time ever hearing of a Gospel musical, so I guess I didn't know about that. I've only been to Broadway and West End style musicals so whatever I wrote is based on my experience at those types. Unfortunately, I haven't seen Starlight Express, but would it be considered normal to cheer during that musical? The dog2 (talk) 22:06, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't know; I've never been to Starlight Express either and don't often go to musicals. As for a famous Gospel-style musical, The Wiz comes to mind. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:12, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Starnom#Buffalo

Hello again. You've intimated a couple of times already that Starnom isn't really your favorite thing to weigh in on, but I'm really getting frustrated by what appears to me like a cycle of people conjuring up brand-new and increasingly picayune reasons to hold up Buffalo's promotion, which always seem to come out of the ether the minute I've finished addressing the last round of concerns. I know mine is about the most biased point of view in the world, and I know Starnoms are held to high standards by design, but I also know that in the entire time I've been active on this site, no Starnom has been nitpicked as pettily as Buffalo has. What has it been, four years now or something? Anyway, my most recent comment on that thread was my frustration talking, and although upon rereading it I can't identify anything I don't continue to stand behind, I think the conversation could do with the perspective of a neutral third party (whether it be to back me up or to disagree with me; I promise there will be no hard feelings either way). Again, I know you don't feel this area of the site is your strong suit, but I'd consider it a big favor.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:47, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

I'll try my best to look at the objections and reread the Buffalo article with a fine-toothed comb, but I won't have time tonight, and tomorrow is doubtful. I really can't promise anything, but I'll try. The thing is, in the past, I've missed a whole bunch of things other people posted on the starnom discussion page, so I feel like I am not the best at judging these things, but I'll be Goddamned if the Buffalo article isn't a star! Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:11, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

I appreciate that. If you'd like to "reread the Buffalo article with a fine-toothed comb", that would of course be spectacular, but don't feel compelled to do so on account of this conversation. What I was hoping you'd do is what you've in fact already done: not to judge to what degree the objections apply to the article, but whether nominees are normally disqualified on bases like these and whether there's an unequal standard being applied to Buffalo vis-à-vis other recent nominees. (Again, I feel confident in answering those questions "no" and "yes" respectively, but I'm also acutely aware of the optics of the situation, given that I'm the Buffalo article's principal author.) -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:55, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

I just addressed the objection, or at least part of it, being invalid. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:57, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Indeed. Again, I appreciate that. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:57, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Glad to be of soivice. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:59, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Screen width

I'm no longer sure where, but somewhere you asked me to give you the size of the computer screen I was using. Width of approx. 20 1/2 inches, 18 1/2 of which is screen, height approx. 14 inches, screen only a little under 11 inches. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:16, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Very big screen. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:36, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Right. I found the place where it was being discussed, though: Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates/Banners#Fukoka. PS I don't always use a screen as large as this one. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:38, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Recent questions about Wellington (Colorado) article

Good morning, Ikan Kekek, you had inquired about some things (thanks for the feedback), and I'll try my best to answer them here.

Wikipedia lists Wellington as a statutory town, so likely a form of government differences t than a regular town, so I felt right to include it. According to Dictionary.com, statutory is permanent legistrative government? On Wikipedia, it says that a town with a mayor and council is stautory. As for the rest of it, I just got crazy writing.

Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 14:37, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Hmmm, I guess by that definition, New York is a statutory town! Do you see how that won't affect visitors, though? Thanks for the info. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:42, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: I guess that means New York is small at heart! As for Wellington, Colorado, I'll remove any confusing words, and replace them as possible.

I'm considering making some new articles. Would a city like Meredian, Idaho, a park like Custer Gallatin National Forest, or an event like the Kentucky Derby make good articles? Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 22:59, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't know on the destinations: It really depends on how much content the articles would have. I think the Derby might make a good article, but I'd recommend instead creating an article on Horse racing and making a listing for the Derby as one of the listings (I can also think of the Preakness and the Belmont Stakes immediately, as those are the other 2 legs of the Triple Crown, but there is horse racing in many countries). If the listing gets too long, it could be turned into an article, with a shorter summary left in the larger travel topic article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:04, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@Ikan Kekek: Thanks! Zanygenius2 (WV-en) (talk) 23:23, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Sure! We really should have a horse racing travel topic. I'm surprised no-one has started one yet. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:25, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

185.30.162.7 22:58, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Vilnius museum of genocide

Hi there, I appreciated your point but I had to undo your editing as I was writing about a specific addition to the museum that was dedicated to the genocide of Lithuanian Jews and not other ethnic groups. It was especially important as for a number of years the official Lithuanian position on the topic was very vague and provoked a lot of criticism around the world. —The preceding comment was added by 185.30.162.7 (talk • contribs)

Thanks, 185.30.162.7, I understand, but how about stating it as "the genocidal campaign against the Lithuanian Jews during the Nazi occupation", so that it's unambiguously clear that (a) the genocide was against the Jews, not by the Jews ("of" could be ambiguous) and (b) what period is being referenced. (Parenthetically, comments on talk pages should be signed by typing 4 tildes [~] in a row at the end of each comment.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:22, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough, thanks 185.30.162.7 09:39, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:26, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Some news

Hey IK! I'm glad to tell you, next month I'm going to travel to the US on vacation, to visit relatives living in DC. I have four weeks. Maybe I'll try some day trips, maybe one of them will be NYC. My dilemma would be, what not to miss in your hometown if you have one day only? Your advice is valuable. Can't hardly wait to arrive . Cheers Ibaman (talk) 22:56, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

If you're here for one day and the weather is acceptable (no torrential rain, etc.), I'd suggest to you to just walk a lot. Otherwise, New York is really too varied for me to suggest anything in particular that's a "can't miss" in a single day. If you give me some idea what kinds of things you've enjoyed most in other cities, though, I might be able to give some suggestions. I will tell you that New York would be a difficult day trip from DC. The train takes about 3 1/2 hours each way. I think Philadelphia, which is 2 hours away, would be a lot more doable. In the other direction, Richmond, Virginia is about 2 1/2 hours away (I'm surprised - I thought it would take less time) with limited trains, but you also have the option of numerous buses that take either 2 hr 5 min or 2 hr 35 min. I haven't been there, but I think it's nice. Baltimore is a trip by commuter rail (MARC) from DC; it takes 1 hour. There's lots to do in DC, though; you could easily spend a week there, walking and sightseeing, and would be unlikely to get bored. My recommendation is, if you're interested in day trips, check schedules on the Amtrak, Greyhound and MARC websites, depending on whether you want to check train, bus or commuter rail schedules. By the way, I just checked another possibility on Amtrak.com: Charlottesville, VA is no more than about 2 1/2 hours away from DC by train, but the trains in that direction leave only in the evening, and the bus schedule for that route on Greyhound is awful, so it's not a reasonable day trip unless you rent a car.

Let me know if you have any other questions. And if you do come up to New York, drop me a line if I might be around (I'm likely to be out west in July and might possibly be in Berlin in August).

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:54, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

...I was about to reedit to mention, my tentative plan would be the Met and Central Park, and... what else would be practical? (the aircraft carrier, the Federal Hall of George Washington fame, Battery Park come to mind firstly). But now I'll digest the info you just gave me. I'm glad you replied so quickly. Thank you so much. Gonna work on my plans. Wikivoyage is the best. Ibaman (talk) 00:07, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

The Met and Central Park is practical. What else you do on that day depends on when and how long your visit to the Met is. You could easily spend an entire week in that museum. The Battery and the Staten Island Ferry are nice things to do. Since you're talking about only a day trip, I'd say don't do too much planning and decide on that day what you feel like doing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:28, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

• It became very obvious to me, as we spoke, it would be very unwise of to try and go ahead with a one-day-trip plan. NYC deserves a lot more. How obvious. I'm working on these plans. Ibaman (talk) 16:37, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:14, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Titusville, Pennsylvania Wikivoyage Page

Ikan, Thank you for editing my listing to conform with the guidelines. It is my B&B and I did not mean to overstep. Veg Mapper (talk) 19:45, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

That's quite alright. It's perfectly understandable not to know a site's style or guidelines the first time you edit. Again, welcome! And if you have any favorite restaurants, bars or anything else in the area, please feel free to add listings for them in the appropriate article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Venezuela

I was just wandering, in the History section of Venezuela, should we go into a little more detail about how the U.S. launched an embargo after Chavez nationalised the oil industry, because that went against the interest of American oil companies? I'm not sure if something like this is getting too political, given that the conflict is still ongoing, and Venezuela appears to still be a hot-button political issue in the U.S. The dog2 (talk) 19:35, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't know, but you seem unsure, so just because of that, I'd say omit it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:15, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Article Status

I see you delete my directions for the Moon. The Wikivoyage:Park guide status page clearly states that directions are needed, but it makes no sense on the moon. And, the article status page does not state anything like "if possible", which means the article must have directions, a Get in section, accommodation and fees and permits, no matter how silly it seems. What's more, articles like Abel Tasman National Park still gets Usable status without directions whatsoever, and the Usable status doesn't say anything about sections other than Get in, Sleep, See and Fees and permits, which means that they could just be left blank. This shows how confusing the current Article Status is. For more on this, please see Wikivoyage talk:Article status#Article status overhaul. The SmileKat40! (*Meow* chat with me! | What did I do?) 02:16, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

The moon is not a park, but anyway, whatever the status guides say, exceptions can always be made for logic. No-one is an automaton here. I've been following the thread you linked but haven't had anything to say, so far. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:31, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi, can you please reformat the tables into a more readable version (longer width) and merge the boxes as I said in the comments? Thank you, The SmileKat40! (*Meow* chat with me! | What did I do?) 10:51, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't know whether I can or not, quite honestly. I'm no expert on how to format tables. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:53, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Okay, then do you know anyone who knows how to format tables? The SmileKat40! (*Meow* chat with me! | What did I do?) 14:18, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I really don't. We don't use tables much on this site. I'm guessing maybe User:ARR8 or someone else who's just generally technically savvy might know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:10, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Softball

Thank you for expanding on the softball section of the baseball article. I noticed you added a point about slowpitch softball, but there is nowhere in the article that we mention anything about the differences between fastpitch and slowpitch softball. I personally don't really know the difference since the only softball tournaments I have watched are international tournaments like the Asian Games (which I presume would be fastpitch), so I was wondering if you could perhaps explain in the article a little more what "fastpitch" and "slowpitch" refer to. Thank you. The dog2 (talk) 23:47, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi. I'm not an expert on softball, but I think the basic difference is fairly self-explanatory. That said, slow-pitch softball uses a pitching style that is best described as an underhand lob, while fast-pitch softball uses much more nearly the style of a baseball pitcher. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:25, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

User talk:AndreCarrotflower#Terra

Hello Ikan. I've been trying to hang back a little bit when it comes to issues related to policy enforcement, and focus on adding content for a while. The situation with Inas and the topic bans has rattled me a little bit, and I've started to become concerned that sometimes I might cross the line into intimidating other users. I'll try and work on that.

So, in the spirit of that, I wonder if you could help me out with the issue regarding the most recent message on my user talk page, linked in the section header. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this user's M.O. since she's such a low-volume editor, but in case you're not, here's the long and short of it: while not exactly a vandal, enough of her contributions are of a problematic nature that pretty much all of her edits need vigilance. Said problematic edits tend to come in two different forms: 1) adding pseudoscience and fringe conspiracy theory to articles such as UFOs, Area 51, etc. (links are to relevant talk page discussions), and 2) creating garbage redirects for esoteric, often seemingly science fiction-derived terms that are unlikely to be entered as searches (see Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion/April 2018#Planet Terra and Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion/April 2018#Satellite Luna, in which she cited a spurious need to "maintain consistent interwikilinks with the other Wikimedia projects" as a rationale for why they should not be deleted). This most recent incident falls into the second category, namely the creation of Terra as a redirect to Earth, seemingly in deliberate defiance of the consensus in favor of deleting the functionally identical redirect Planet Terra back in April of last year.

I've tried fruitlessly to explain the parameters of Wikivoyage's scope to this user several times already, and quite frankly, I'm finding it harder and harder to assume good faith vis-à-vis her failure to grasp the concept. (Her rant about "government toadies" and "propaganda" at Talk:Rachel was particularly disheartening.) In terms of getting through to her, I'm hoping maybe you can succeed where I've failed. Because again, though I'm hesitant to "go there" given some of the controversies I've been involved in lately, under other circumstances I'd be wondering whether this behavior pattern isn't starting to veer uncomfortably close to userban territory.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:59, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

I’m a little handicapped right now because since last night, my computer hasn’t been able to start, but I tried my best. I think I’ll add something. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:18, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate it. Good luck with your computer woes. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 13:36, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:11, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

User:Khourshemtour

sorry to bother you like this, but dont you think that the user name Khourshemtour is a spam itself? It obviously says the name of a company. Arep Ticous 17:53, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

My understanding is that it's OK for a user to use the name of their company as their username. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:54, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh, then i suppose there is nothing wrong, thanks. Arep Ticous 17:56, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Indeed, using the company name is preferable if business owners want to be up front about who they are, make their vested interest known to us, and operate within our policies. In fact, we may want to recommend such practice going forward. What do you think?--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:00, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes. If we don't already recommend it, we should. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:03, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Budapest River Cruise

What are your thoughts on this edit? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:19, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

My thought is that a river cruise is a "Do", not a form of transportation. That's assuming the URL is for the company that actually operates the cruise, not a booking service. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:24, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, good point, I'd agree there. The URL looks genuine to me, but of course I can't be sure. I'll get in touch with the user in the near future. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:54, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Done Got in touch with the user and fixed the location of the cruise link. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:59, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

AF 45

I'm not sure where to find this. Ground Zero (talk) 17:53, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Go to Special:AbuseFilter and scroll down until you find #45. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Hey

Hey ShahidkhanLala (talk) 20:16, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Hey. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:19, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Reply

Hello Ikan, still confused how to use the talk feature here. Just dropping by to say thank you for the reminder and I will take note. Regards, GS —The preceding comment was added by Goingsexy (talk • contribs)

Hi, Goingsexy. Thanks for stopping by! The convention is to put your new post at the bottom of the page, adding a new subtitle if relevant, and to sign at the end by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row. Let me know if you have any questions after you've read the links I posted to your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:36, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

25% Tip

I won't be pushing this too much, but I will just say that I have left a 25% tip at places where I am a regular, or if I know the server personally. Of course, I know that a 25% tip is not the standard minimum, but neither do I think it would be outrageous if you have received exemplary service from the staff. Tipping well can most certainly help you build good relationships with the restaurant staff. The dog2 (talk) 22:16, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

You do you, but the article is listing "generally accepted standard rates". If you want, I think it's fine to add a general note that tipping well helps you build a good relationship with staff. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:05, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm not the only one. I have friends who tip 25% when they receive a complementary dessert, or otherwise receive exemplary service. It's not something we do all the time, but all I'm saying is that if you're a regular, tipping that amount can sometimes earn you special treatment from the restaurant (like maybe allowing you to reserve Obama's booth in a steakhouse). The dog2 (talk) 02:50, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

It's generally underestood that you should tip extra for exemplary service, and certainly for comped dishes. By no means do I tip 25% for comped dishes or drinks; instead, I try to add something close to the value of the dishes or drinks. So, for example, I am a regular at 3 bars that are sisters to one another. I first of all tip a base of $2 per shot of whiskey or rye, not the standard $1, thereby earning larger pours, and they generally comp me at least one shot, whereupon I increase my tip by at least $4. If they comp 2 drinks, I increase my tip by more like $7. 25% is no kind of standard anything and nothing I would normally think about at all. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:14, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

So how much will you tip if the server is your friend? The dog2 (talk) 15:50, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, one example was when a friend served me and comped a couple of dishes plus dessert. We gave her a big tip, but I don't remember how big and would refer you back to the idea of increasing a tip by something like the value of the comped dishes. No calculation of 25%, and the tip would have been more than 25% of the bill. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:54, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Attribution

This is probably a stupid question, but is this summary fair attribution? I was copying the width used above in the Sarajevo nomination for the width of the later banner. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:04, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think a number like that is copyrightable (see w:Threshold of originality). Probably nothing to worry about. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:00, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I think I get the general idea. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:59, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Seems OK to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:44, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Copyvio

Hi, Ikan. An anonymous user has created a new article, Kushalnagar. While some of the content appears to be original writing, a fair amount is copied from Wikipedia, and in at least one case from an uncertain source [48], including multiple copyrighted webpages. I don't know what should be done in this case; should the whole article be deleted, or what? If you're about, could you please advise? Best wishes, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:18, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

I would delete. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:42, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, mate. I hope you're enjoying your time away.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:00, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Not that much. There was a horrible flood from the apartment above mine while I was on vacation in Pittsburgh with my girlfriend. I'm fortunate to be able to crash in a friend's apartment in Spanish Harlem and trying to take advantage of my temporary sojourn in this neighborhood, but in the meantime, after spending the entire day working in my moldy apartment 2 days ago, albeit with a mask, I am sick with bronchitis. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:31, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Oh, what a nightmare! I'm sorry to hear about that. Hope you feel better soon - sending virtual grapes your way, though perhaps you'd prefer a stiff whisky. Anything we can do on the wiki side of things in your stead, just ask. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:02, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Just keep on keeping on. I have very spotty Wi-Fi access up here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:51, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

On my talk page

Hi. When you have some free time, would you please take a look at the latest discussion on my talk page (User talk:ThunderingTyphoons!#User:Alexkyoung) and offer your thoughts there? Thanks, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:00, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Reply regarding the pagebanner rules

You're right. I will post things to the talk page from now on, but I have a feeling that my considerations about the banner replacement won't be seen since the article that I'm editing is not that popular due to it's small content and irrelevancy. What do I do if my recommendation for a new page banner isn't seen for a longer period of time? Jankela121 (talk) 13:12, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

I have explained on your talk page. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:19, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Telstra?

Is this Telstra --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:14, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't know, but the longer they have only one edit, the more likely that becomes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:30, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Another tough call, but probably not Telstra this time. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:17, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't know. Could be, but since I'm not sure, I didn't do anything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. We shouldn't take action against someone who could reasonably be good. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 10:43, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I feel like I'm starting to spot a pattern. This doesn't look like Telstra to me, but some other problem user who likes adding markers to lists in articles. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:16, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Don't worry, however, I am not intending to take action now. Lack of evidence at this point. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:37, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

You could always revert the edits if you like, without blocking the user. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:06, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

And another. I will begin reverting. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:01, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Probably time to block, too, but since these are usually single-post accounts... Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:58, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Sure, I'll start blocking these users. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:15, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

• It really looks like Telstra now. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:30, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Yep, sure does. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:02, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Fahrenheit/Celsius conversion

Hi there. Regarding this diff and also this one, my thinking was that when we're talking in terms of ballpark figures rather than hard-and-fast statistics, for the sake of avoiding the awkwardness inherent in using numbers that aren't round, it's okay for the °F and °C conversions to not be exactly mathematically correct. I reckon it's not significantly more or less true to say, for instance, that the summer highs in Birmingham reach 100°F (=38°C) regularly as it is to say they reach 40°C (=104°F) regularly, right? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:53, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't know. Are temperatures of 104 common there? 4 degrees F do make a significant difference. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:34, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

The way things are going nowadays, if they're not now, they will be soon. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:35, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

They will be in New York soon! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:00, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Don't worry, you'll also have a lot more ocean in your daily commute than you're used to, so it will all balance out.ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 05:44, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Ugh! Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:44, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

You're a musician, so I figured you'd have an informed opinion on this

I just added the following to Jazz#History, but I'm having second thoughts about whether this falls within the scope of the article:

Also emerging around the same time as Latin jazz was exotica, a short-lived but very popular genre where lushly orchestrated jazz served as the basis upon which tribal rhythms and instruments, jungle sound effects such as bird calls and shrieking monkeys, and a grab bag of other elements came together to paint a highly fictionalized musical picture of South Seas island culture. Pianists Les Baxter and Martin Denny were exotica's two primary exponents; the former's 1951 album Ritual of the Savage launched the genre into public consciousness, while the latter's 1957 album Exotica gave it its name. Later, exotica fused with the mellow, swing-based style of popular jazz "crooners" like Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin to form lounge music, which remained popular through the early '70s; seek out the work of songwriters Burt Bacharach and Hal David for a sampling. 

The problem is, I'm not sure if exotica and lounge are properly described as subgenres of jazz, rather than merely jazz-influenced forms of pop. Certainly a strong argument can be made for Les Baxter, but Burt Bacharach is really pushing the envelope, I think. Thoughts?

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:06, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Bacharach is definitely not jazz. I'd have to listen to the rest to give a case-by-case reaction. I'm more familiar with tropical bird calls and such in Brazilian music. By the way, I'm shocked Tito Puente wasn't mentioned until you added him. How did we omit El Rey de los Timbales? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:45, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I think I'm just going to excise all of this. First of all, that section is getting pretty long. Secondly, the more I think about it, the more I'm not comfortable classifying exotica under the category of jazz, or really any category - it seems more like a weird stylistic dead-end than anything else. Thirdly (and relatedly), while the style was very commercially popular in its day, it was very short-lived and also not very influential in the long run - nowadays it's regarded as camp at best, and at worst, trafficking in problematic cultural stereotypes. As for Bacharach et al.: the fact that they're not in any way classifiable as jazz had already significantly weakened the argument for their inclusion; if we're no longer regarding exotica as a jazz subgenre, and therefore no longer regarding lounge music as being at least rooted in jazz, then the whole rationale falls apart. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:09, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Lounge music is definitely related to jazz, but I'm not sure it's important to mention that and probably agree that it doesn't really scream out to be focused on. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Untitled

Regarding Medical tourism editing, what is the exact problem. I'm new to Wikipedia, plz guide me bro

Jazz vs blues

Hey there. I was just wondering if as a musician, you think we should cover the differences between the two genres in one of our articles. After all, many tourists visit the U.S. to listen to both genres of music, and they do share many similarities as both are of African-American origin, and someone who is not experienced could easily confuse the two. The dog2 (talk) 18:00, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Well, I mean, by that logic why not also cover rock and roll in that article too? Honestly, I think that despite springing from the same well, jazz and blues are distinct enough from each other in their history, tourist-related POIs, etc. that we'd be doing readers a disservice lumping them together. Anyone who wants to explore both jazz and blues music on their visit to the U.S. can consult both the Jazz and Blues articles (and if the latter doesn't exist yet, it should). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:31, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Fair point. Unfortunately, I'm not well-versed enough in the history of the blues to start the article, but if someone can get that going, I'd be happy to contribute. Speaking of which, from doing a few Google searches, I came across some tour itineraries about the "Americana music triangle" of Nashville (country music), Memphis (blues) and New Orleans (jazz). Perhaps something we analogous could create here is an "American Southern music cities" road trip starting in Bristol, Tennessee and ending in Lafayette, Louisiana, passing though some important cities such as Clarksdale, Knoxville and Baton Rouge. The dog2 (talk) 19:09, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Reverted

I agree with Andre on jazz and the blues. I'd be interested in knowing more about the itinerary. Austin is a big music city, too, though Texas isn't treated as part of the South on this site. And maybe Miami for Cuban music? Which cities in Mississippi have an interesting music scene, nowadays? Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:07, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

This is one of the web-sites I came across: [49]. I've never been to Mississippi or Tennessee so I don't know what the scene is like now, but I just got back from a trip to Louisiana, and New Orleans definitely has a happening music scene. Of course there's the traditional jazz, but there are also plenty of bands that are playing modern variants of New Orleans jazz. One that I got to listen to live was called the Jumbo Shrimp Jazz Band. Over in Lafayette, they have the traditional Cajun-style music, which makes extensive use of the accordion. My understanding about Mississippi though is that Clarksdale is regarded as the birthplace of the blues, so that would be a stop on make on such an itinerary. And Bristol, Tennessee is supposed to be where the first country music record was produced. Of course, Knoxville was where Dolly Parton started her career, so that could be a destination. And I think for the purpose of the itinerary, we can consider Texas to be part of the South. The dog2 (talk) 02:48, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

That's quite an interesting site. Another thought I had is that Sheffield, Alabama (no Wikivoyage article) might be a place of pilgrimage for fans of rock 'n' roll recorded at Mussel Shoals Studio. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:37, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Guided Tours section of Pennsylvania Dutch Country page

Hi, I saw that you removed the "Guided Tours" listings on https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch_Country. I also got your Talk message. Just wanted to follow up about that.

You mentioned "You also need to read the site's tour listing policy. Most tours can't be listed at all."

Each of the businesses that had been listed meet all 6 of the requirements on https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Listings#Tour_listings

None of those tour guides run tours where "...the substance of such tours can generally be fulfilled by an independent traveller". An independent traveler can't walk onto the private property of Amish folks and talk with them. These bus/scooter tours allow for that. The tours of the Amish are each unique because they offer tourists the chance to learn about different Amish farms (none of which are publicly accessible apart from the tour).

Also, all of those guided tours are in "Pennsylvania Dutch Country". That's why they're listed on that page. Sure, they could be listed on individual city pages, but if you're a tourist visiting "PA Dutch Country", you're looking for info about the Amish. Whereas, if you're looking to visit (city), you may be looking for info about a variety of things (which includes, but isn't exclusive to) the Amish.

With that being the case, could you please undo your edit: https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Pennsylvania_Dutch_Country&oldid=3850308

--JustinSayin (talk) 21:27, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanation. Site policy is to list tours in the article for the locality where they are headquartered (or, failing that, start from). The appropriate thing to do in the region article is to mention guided tours under "Do" as an activity, giving the background information you just put on this talk page, and state with Wikivoyage links the names of towns where tours originate. Do not list, link or even use the names of specific tours or tour agencies in the region article. In articles for localities, either in an introduction to the "Guided tours" subsection if there is more than one guided tour starting from that town or in the listing, if there's only one tour originating from that town, you should include a similar summary of the points you made here. It would not only justify listings but also help inform the traveler. Thanks a lot.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:01, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Few questions

In addition to my reply on my talk to you, as I am improving Katowice, I have few questions:

• why is there no 'add listing' for the learn section?
• pl wikivoyage for Katowice describes local cuisine. Can I add some notes about famous local dishes to Eat section?
• how can we mention / link to stuff like https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlak_Zabytk%C3%B3w_Techniki_Wojew%C3%B3dztwa_%C5%9Al%C4%85skiego (no eng wiki article yet), it is quite useful for tourist (government-supoorted lists of local monuments in the form of a trail)?
• should I create listings for the large shopping malls? Right now they are mentioned in the Buy section in text.
• I've added entries for some attractions located on the border of Katowice and nearby Chorzów; some of them are technically located in Chorzów, but locals tend to see them as 'shared'. Anyway, is it ok to list them in the main article or should they be removed?

--Piotrus (talk) 07:03, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your work and your questions!

(1) I think there's no "add listing" for the "Learn" section because it's an optional section. What should be in that section is anyplace that provides classes either a visitor of ~2 weeks or less (or perhaps a summer) can take (e.g., Polish language classes for beginners, cooking classes, classes in Polish dances or music) and/or universities that take students on a year abroad, and the things to emphasize are how they are useful and/or attractive to such visitors.

(2) Yes, absolutely mention famous local dishes! It's probably most helpful to put those in an introductory section before the listings of places to eat.

(3) For this one, I suggest you bring it up at Talk:Katowice, because it will need a discussion, as Wikipedia articles of that type are not usually linked, but exceptions can be made by consensus. So make an argument for how it's so helpful to visitors that we should include it as an exception to normal guidelines.

(4) Yes, create listings for shopping malls.

(5) Yes, this is OK. You can mention in the lede or "Understand" section that Chorzów is also covered in this article - unless you plan on creating a separate article about that town, and in that case, we can't have the same listings in two articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:48, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Hey thanks for the kind words re: the American Cuisine article. It sort of became a hobby over the last couple of months. Beeelb (talk) 22:14, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

You deserve this barncompass more than I. Thanks! Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:16, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Chorzów

I've started a page. Any comments appreciated. Not sure why pagebanner is not working... --Piotrus (talk) 14:22, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

What should it be doing if it were working? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:25, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Year-s-

Thanks for correcting me, and more than my reverted one-letter un-correction, thanks for the remaining stuff that needed it. About my attempt of improvement, I wasn't sure, I just put the two "XXX year/s/ old" in coherence, from what seemed to me the most /logical/ — but well, logics and writing make the pair, as we use to say in french. Best --Eric.LEWIN (talk) 06:17, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Sure thing. Hyphenated adjectives are a sort of pet peeve of mine. They seem very unpopular with other editors on this site, and I'm not sure why. And welcome to Wikivoyage! I'll post a welcome message with some useful links on your user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:20, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Kamsa

File:HappyPupp.png	Thank you for the mercy you gave to an tired student.
	oO ( Thank you for your careful help. I hope you are always happy...) Tichiel (talk) 07:10, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Sure thing. It's all about collaborating. Have a great day! And do let me know if you have any questions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:09, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Guess

I see your point, but I know that bano and mujer are words in Spanish. I was guessing about the one listed for "men" — because I was guessing, I did not remove that one. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:01, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

How many English words would you guess are borrow words from foreign languages? What about foreign words used in Malay? Don't guess that a Spanish word can't also be a Quechua word. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:13, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, well you reverted it, so it's fine. I don't care much either way. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:21, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi there

Your feedback here would be most valuable. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:58, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Done. Shocking for an admin to edit war. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:32, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Isn't he a bureaucrat, too? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:40, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Yep. But it would be shocking, regardless, for an admin to do that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:16, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Response

hello, we saw your message; by group project we mean that its a class, the 4 of us belong to a college class, and we are new to creating articles in general thus all the template and style problems. Also we believe that Woodside, queens has enough reasons to have an article of its own, and we will follow up on the Talk:Queens. Our next class will be on Thursday and we will work on it.

We appreciate your opinion and ask you very kindly to be patient with us, as we are just learning. Kind Regards, Jondiaz121 (talk) 15:55, 17 October 2019 (UTC)—The preceding comment was added by Jondiaz121 (talk • contribs)

Hi, J, and thanks for explaining.

First, a procedural point: When you post to talk pages, please sign your posts by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row at the end of the post. Second, I appreciate your enthusiasm and hope you add as much useful content as possible. Whether it remains in a separate article or not is of secondary concern at most.

Third, I'd like you to read the "Plunge forward" article, especially the "...But don't be reckless!!" section. Relevant excerpt:

Don't be afraid of making mistakes, but at the same time be aware that there are certain cases where you might find that your edit receives extra scrutiny, or may be undone by others:

• Changes to regional organization. A lot of effort goes into splitting up huge cities into districts, or splitting up larger regions into smaller ones, so in cases where the regional breakdown was the result of lengthy discussion changes should usually be proposed on the article talk page first.

Since you didn't propose the changes on Talk:Queens before making them, it's important for you to start a thread there. In it, address not only how there are so many points of interest in Woodside that a separate article is required in in the interest of travelers, but also precisely what boundaries you are proposing for Woodside (and, preferably, all the other Wikivoyage districts for Queens, because we've never reached a conclusion about their exact boundaries).

And the article, if approved, would be named Queens/Woodside.

Thanks a lot.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:20, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Hello Ikan kekek thanks for your help, as you may know we are new at wikivoyage therefore we are lerning. our profesor ask as to create an article at wikivoyage for woodside since woodside didndt have one. for now we are going to try to add woodside nformation into Jackson Heights.

Thanks a lot.

All the best,

--RodriguezLuis7631 (talk) 16:40, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Does your professor have a Wikivoyage account? It would be good for us to have a dialogue with him or her. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:51, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting typos

In Wikivoyage:Correct typos in one click one should remove corrected typos, but it is better to do so with the project script, this way fixing/removing is done in a single click and the version history has the needed info to filter the typo on next scan. Thanks, Uziel302 (talk) 09:48, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

I'll have a look at the instructions you referenced. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:55, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

External link in article, namely to a video

Hey, Ikan. There's a YouTube channel called Wendover Productions that has—in my opinion—an amazing video about Barrow, Alaska (now Utqiaġvik) called "Why the Northernmost Town in America Exists". I'm not sure if you've watched it, and it doesn't function as a standalone travel guide, but I believe it imparts excellent information that's pertinent to prospective travelers. Would it be appropriate for me to create an external links section and put a link to the video there? TheTechnician27 (talk) 02:22, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Wikivoyage policy doesn't allow any external links section, nor are video links allowed. There might be a way to mention the title of the video somewhere, though, in the same manner that some articles mention books in "Understand" for people who want more background on a place. Broach that topic at Talk:Utqiagvik. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:24, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

I know the video TheTechnician27 is talking about, and I can vouch that there's a lot of good information in it that could be incorporated into the article (directly, not as a link). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:03, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

If so, either by summary/paraphrase or by mentioning that [Name of Video] states that x and y. Either way, credit should be given in (an) edit summary(-ies). Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:24, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

China and ethnic minorities

Hey there, I just thought it's better I carry on the discussion here rather than on the other person's talk page so (s)he's not flooded with alerts from messages not addressed to him/her. I am not here to advocate for any political position, but I just wish to give a bit more nuance to the topic than what you will get from Fox News, MSNBC or CNN, and while Xi Jinping is no saint, and the Chinese media is most certainly guilty of propagandising, it is also true that the Western media has its biases, and sometimes be a little unfair and even sensationalist in its coverage of China.

To cut a long story short, modern China is not concerned about people practising a religion or promoting their culture per se; that was true during the Cultural Revolution but not anymore. What they are really concerned about is if you are trying to subvert the government's authority, or to promote separatism. If you look carefully, for those ethnic minorities that have no active independence movements, the Chinese government is for the most part happy to let them promote their own cultures. I've in fact seen an ethnic Mongol boy perform a song in Mongolian on China's Got Talent (see this link). Even some of the Han Chinese have strong regional identities, and the Chinese government allows them to promote their own regional languages and cultures as long as they still identify as Chinese. You can find Cantonese channels if you go to Guangzhou, Teochew channels if you go to Chaozhou, Hokkien channels if you go to Xiamen and so on. It's mainly those ethnic minorities that are trying to push for independence whose cultures the Chinese government is actively trying to suppress. While it's a fair point to say that that's still oppressive and disproportionate, and that it's actually making the problem worse, as you can see, it's not as simple as the Chinese government being against diversity and wanting homogeneity for sake of it. It's a lot more complex than that.

Sorry for the rant, and I hope this doesn't come across as me trying to preach to you, but I just wished to provide a different perspective, which the privilege of being bilingual has allowed me to have. I think the bottomline is that China is not as dangerous or oppressive as the Western media often makes it out to be. Sure, they don't have many of the civil liberties that you guys have in America, and there are legitimate human rights concerns regarding political dissidents, but so long as you don't get involved in any criminal or political activity while you're there, the Chinese police are very unlikely to go after you. I've been to China several times, and not once have I felt that my personal safety was threatened. For that matter, I'll bet you that walking through a Chinese slum is safer than walking through an American slum, so go figure. The dog2 (talk) 05:22, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

I get your points, but remember that I am a Jew - a member of a people who have been brutalized for millennia for choosing to remain distinct and not do things like bow down to rulers as if they were god, take part in any communal non-Jewish religious activities (including the original ancient Greek Olympics) or tolerate attempts to prohibit the exercise of our own religion. Do you expect me to feel sanguine about hundreds of thousands of people being detained in w:Xinjiang re-education camps? "In August 2018, a United Nations human rights panel said that it had received many credible reports that 1 million ethnic Uyghurs in China have been held in 're-education camps'." You can read about how these detainees have been treated in the rest of the article, which is of course cited and documented like all other Wikipedia articles. I don't think that the idea that Uighurs, Kazakhs, Kirghiz and so forth are "rebellious" justifies this attempt to destroy their culture and prevent them from practicing Islam. Basically, what you're explaining is that the Chinese government inflicts collective punishment with a vengeance, but I already knew that. That's what all authoritarian regimes do. And I know a fair amount about Chinese history. Understanding the motivations for an action doesn't make it any better or more justified. I'm not an authoritarian ruler and don't need to judge the world by putting myself in their shoes. I can do so enough to understand how they think and why, but I'd rather put myself in the shoes of an ordinary person who is dragged to a detention camp because of who or what they are. I sympathize with them, not with the heavy hand of the state that makes life a living nightmare for them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:59, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Now, having said all that, I think the points you made bear more on the safety of travelers in China. While a responsible travel guide doesn't serve to defame dissidents by taking the side of the government, neither does it exist to serve as an activist organization on behalf of dissidents. Instead, we should give basic information to travelers on what the situation is like, and especially how it might affect their safety and their experience of traveling in a particular place. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:02, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm not saying that the Chinese government is right to do what they're doing, nor does the fact that I'm critical of the U.S. government's imperialistic tendencies mean that I support the Chinese government's human rights abuses. I'm just trying to provide an extra level of nuance that Western media often doesn't give you (and to be fair, the Chinese media doesn't either). Let's put it this way: you can try to understand why someone is doing something, but still disagree with what they're doing. An example I can think of in America would be those people who voted for Obama twice, then voted for Trump. And yes, I most certainly agree that as a travel guide, we should not take sides in any of these conflicts, and we should simply provide the necessary information so travellers will have an idea on how these conflicts will affect their experience. If you've seen my edits in the Hong Kong article, I hope you've notice that I have done my best to be fair and avoid propogandising for either side. The dog2 (talk) 06:32, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I get your points, certainly. Just to add, though, certain facts, simply by being stated, speak against a side in a conflict, and those can be fair to state for the information of (prospective) travelers. I mean, WV:Be fair doesn't mean that we should say "the Rohingyas and the U.N. say the armed forces of Myanmar have committed genocidal actions in Rakhine State, but since the government of Myanmar denies it, it's as likely as not to be a lie". I don't see any contradiction between condemning imperialism and also condemning human rights violations, though - isn't that logical? I don't really want to be drawn into a long discussion on imperialism, but suffice it to say that I know about Zheng He's voyages and what followed them, so I'm very much aware that China lost an opportunity to rule the waves for hundreds of years and hasn't forgotten it. And as for the U.S., when has it not been an imperialist power? That's all I want to say. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:55, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

My point was that being critical of the U.S. government doesn't mean that I'm not critical of the Chinese government and vice versa. Not that there's a contradiction between condemning both imperialism and human rights abuses. The dog2 (talk) 07:09, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

But of course there's never a contradiction in criticizing abuses by different governments. That's consistent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:16, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

And just one last thing here. While I'm pretty sure you already knew this, I just wanted to point out that, being ethnically Chinese doesn't mean that I support everything the Chinese government does, in the same way that being Jewish doesn't mean that you support everything the Israeli government does. I know of some American Jews who are calling for the Israeli government to launch a genocide of the Palestinians, but I also know of Jews on the other end of the spectrum like Bernie Sanders who are standing up for Palestinian rights. So the same goes for ethnic Chinese too; while ideologues who blindly support the Chinese government certainly do exist, there are also many of us who are capable of having our own minds and being fair by, and just like you guys, we have a wide range of opinions of various issues. The dog2 (talk) 17:12, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

To me, that goes without saying. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:22, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Increasingly

The problem I have with "increasingly" here is using it with a past tense.

"Since the 1950s, foreign cuisines have increasingly found their way into Germany and have mixed with local dishes."

Foreign cuisines have found their way -- this is something that has already happened, do how it this trend increasing?

If the sentence read

"Since the 1950s, foreign cuisines are increasingly finding their way into Germany and have mixed with local dishes."

it would make sense as the tend is ongoing.

So I'd either take "increasingly" out, or leave it in and change the verb tense. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 15:39, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

To me there is no problem with the past tense. Until now they have, the current or coming trend I know nothing about. With present tense the large timespan seems odd. But then, I am not a native speaker. Of course, such a phrase should be used sparingly. --LPfi (talk) 17:20, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

The edit in question is here. "Increasingly" + past tense is used twice in the article, and "increasingly" + present tense is used twice (or 3 times), so I think I was also looking at it from the perspective of repeated use of the same phrases being boring, and trying for livelier writing. The other instance of its use with a past tense is:

"However, increasingly restaurants have switched to 0.4 liter beers "

Have they switched, as the verb says, or is it ongoing as the adverb implies? Ground Zero (talk) 17:45, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

There are still restaurants with 0.5 liter beer on tap (bottles are virtually never 0.4 liters) and there are those that switched several decades ago as well as those that switched a few years ago. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:24, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Ground Zero, I don't understand your objection. "Have found" is a present perfect tense, indicating an action that started in the past and is continuing. It is not a past tense. Past tense would be "found" - that's over and done with. "Are increasingly finding" shouldn't start in the 1950s; that doesn't feel like idiomatic English to me because of how far in the past the process started. (I could see "This month, I'm increasingly finding kale on the menu at trendy restaurants," but there would be nothing wrong with using "I have found" in that context, and I'd usually use that.) I feel like you should chalk this one up to different usage between different individuals who are native English speakers, but it's certainly not a grammatical issue. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:43, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Of course you're right that "have found" is the present perfect tense. What was I thinking? I still think that "increasingly" is overused on this article, and repetition bid boring, but I will drop the issue. Sorry to have bothered you with this. Ground Zero (talk) 14:23, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

No bother! Perhaps there are other places where "increasingly" is superfluous in the article; I haven't checked. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Portugal hotel rating system

Hey, Ikan. To try to answer your question "Why are you capitalizing" rural "?" on the link https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Chaves&oldid=3881383 I wrote this short text: The European Consumer Centres Network, an institution of the European Union, published a document about the "classification of hotel establishments in the European Union (E.U.)". This document can be found at the following link: https://cec.consumidor.pt/gestao-ficheiros-externos/classification-of-hotel-establishment-within-the-eu-pdf.aspx By consulting this document, on page 5, you will see the question: "Classification systems – why are they so different?". In summary, I have retained the following: "Each of the countries of the world, because of cultural traditions, national and otherwise, are using specific rating systems, which prevent the application of a single classification system worldwide. The possible criteria for the classification of hospitality establishments, which the World Tourism Organization (WTO) takes into consideration, are: a) The level of comfort: ... b) The location of the territory: ... ...)" Based on these 2 criteria we can distinguish "hotels" from "rural hotels" in Portugal. Page 31 of this document briefly describes how the classification of hospitality establishments in Portugal works and sorts their Categories by: Hotels, hotel apartments, Inns, Touristic (holiday) villages, Touristic (holiday) apartments, resorts, holiday villas, rural tourism, camping and caravans. One example of the difference between hotels and rural hotels is described in this document: "In Portugal, all touristic business should offer premises, equipments and at least one accommodation unit to be used by customers with conditioned mobility. The exception applies to ... rural hotels." But for a tourist is it important to distinguish the difference between a hotel and a rural hotel? It is really very important. For example, this tourist will know that, for example, a 4-star rural hotel is theoretically inferior to a 4-star hotel. I am at your disposal for any further clarification.Sanjorgepinho (talk) 15:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• I hope IK won't mind if I reply in the manner I think he would: when writing on a Wikivoyage article, please follow Wikivoyage's capitalization policy, not Portugal's policy, not the EU's policy. Thanks for adding valuable content to our beloved online travel guide. Ibaman (talk) 15:56, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Ibaman. I didn't understand the question. I thought you were asking why I was using the rural hotel category. I will then correct my publications. ThanksSanjorgepinho (talk) 16:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining, Ibaman. That's it exactly. Sanjorgepinho, if the category "rural hotel" means it isn't accessible to people with limited mobility, I think that should be explained in each case, as most readers are unlikely to know that. At the very least, it should be explained in Portugal#Sleep. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:10, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I will do that. It will take a while because Portugal#Sleep has a lot of wrong information to correct. For example, "residential or pension" ceased to exist in 2011.Sanjorgepinho (talk) 23:04, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! Parenthetically, "pension" in English means only money for retired people. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:40, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Gunsan

I'd like your opinion on this edit, which restored what I believe to be excessive detail on this listing. Thanks. Ground Zero (talk) 17:30, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

It looks like useful information to me, so I'd tend to leave it, except for the "Districts" header, which doesn't belong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:57, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

OK, Ground Zero, I'm looking at it on my computer now. I don't like how it looks. I think a range of prices in the "price" tab would be better, and a range of areas and number of people the rooms accommodate could be given in "content". Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:02, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. It's much better after your edit. Ground Zero (talk) 07:45, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Sure thing. I'm glad I didn't restrict myself to looking at the diff on my phone, but saw what it actually looked like in the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:54, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Your revert on my edit in the North Carolina article

I'm very sure you are in the wrong here. I've lived in north carolina the past 8 years, and I've driven through south carolina (many times) and georgia a few times. Please look at a map closely yourself. There is no common border for NC and GA. Please revert your revert, or show me what evidence you are looking at. Marvin The Paranoid (talk) 01:25, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I was doing my best to be polite, but be a bit careful what you're sure of. You can look at any of numerous maps with state borders in these search results if you're not satisfied with the map in South (United States of America). The border between North Carolina and Georgia is clearly further southwest than you've driven from North Carolina. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:57, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

My bad. My very bad. I did look at the map before I had made my edit, but it didn't occur to me that the border existed on the western side. My apologies and thanks for teaching me something new. Marvin The Paranoid (talk) 02:24, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

No problem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:00, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

"Capital" of the Holy Roman Empire

Regarding your edit to North Rhine Westphalia - Aachen, or indeed any other city, was never capital of the Holy Roman Empire. I'd have to look up the edit history but my guess is this mistaken claim was introduced by someone removing "scare quotes" or "shortening" stuff or "straightening prose". I'll attempt a new blurb that if anything doesn't claim a blatant falsehood Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Not really wanting to stick my nose where I wasn't called, but hey, Charlemagne did indeed live and hold court at Aachen, just like Maximilian at Innsbruck or Maria Theresa at the Schönbrunn palace in Vienna or Philip II of Spain at Madrid and so on, therefore, there's nothing unusual or out of line about referring to these cities as "former Imperial capitals". That's my opinion, based on my interpretation of the WV:Tone and WV:Keep Wikivoyage fun policies. Ibaman (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I looked it up, and while I don't know what would or wouldn't have made it the capital of the Holy Roman Empire, "from 936 to 1531, the place where 31 Holy Roman Emperors were crowned Kings of the Germans". Hobbitschuster, you're saying that empire had no capital? Isn't the capital wherever the seat of government is? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Capital and seat of government are not necessarily the same place. South Africa for example has them in different places. During the HRE the emperors were crowned in different places (often crowned king north of the alps and crowned emperor in Rome) they were constantly on the move in part because authority in those times only reached as far as it could be enforced and local lords absent the emperor did their own thing. The empire had a number of Pfalzen which were places where the emperor stayed repeatedly. Apparently many were glad when the court was gone because the emperor and his court had an appetite that no Pfalz could sustainably satiate (another reason for the moving around). Then there's the question what "the government" even was. The electors met only when a new emperor was to be elected, the Reichstag met only when called until the 17th century when it was "perpetually" in Regensburg and once the Habsburgs took over the title of emperor, they were mostly in their residence although that wasn't always Vienna. So in short, royal residences may be capitals, especially when the current capital goes back to a royal residence (in Europe that's basically only Madrid, the French kings resided in Versailles from Louis XIV to the revolution, the English kings moved out of the City of London and even had parliament move out) but just because a monarch is somewhere doesn't make it the capital. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:53, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining all of that. And yet, wasn't Vienna thought of as the (or at least a) capital of the Austrian Empire? And St. Petersburg as capital of the Russian Empire, for example? Or did people not use that term? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:08, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Ukraine

We have an extensive holiday list for Israel. Why no list for Ukraine? Cheers Ceever (talk) 21:51, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ceever: The holiday list is one of the Telstra vandal's editing obsessions, so I can understand the reversion. Though I will give him this: surely it's one of his more useful habits? Isn't a country article made better with a list of national holidays, as long as it's accurate and concise? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:02, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

What is the Telstra vandal and how do I identify em? Cheers Ceever (talk) 22:16, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Typically, names plus 2-3 numbers, and there are certain kinds of edits that are typical from him. We do occasionally get false positives. And because he's proven repeatedly in the past to be unreliable, I don't trust any edit he makes except for pure typo corrections. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:56, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

👍 Ceever (talk) 18:11, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Patan

I recently improved Patan (Gujarat). Please go through it and do needful corrections. Suggestions are welcome. -Nizil Shah (talk) 05:10, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Nizil. I'll have a look when I can. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:34, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

I made a start. I'm mostly inserting articles (a, the) so far. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:04, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

My account is under attack

Swept in from the pub

Someone set up a temporary password for my account. I wasn't given the option of denying approval for it. I don't know what is going to happen. Watch out for someone impersonating me and doing nefarious things, and block this account if you have to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:36, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

same here. Ground Zero (talk) 02:37, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Oh really? Everyone, please read this:

Account details on Wikivoyage Inbox x Wikivoyage <wiki@wikimedia.org> Unsubscribe

8:53 PM (45 minutes ago)

to me Someone (probably you, from IP address 49.159.166.136) requested a reset of your password for Wikivoyage (<https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Main_Page>). The following user account is associated with this email address:

Username: Ikan Kekek

Temporary password: 3ltrnulgeu

This temporary password will expire in 7 days. You should log in and choose a new password now. If someone else made this request, or if you have remembered your original password, and you no longer wish to change it, you may ignore this message and continue using your old password.

I didn't ignore it. I wouldn't have been able to log in if I had, but I don't know if they are keylogging me or what. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:39, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Don't panic. I assume the impersonator got the temporary password sent to your email address by entering your username at Special:PasswordReset. This wouldn't require a keylogger or any other sophisticated technique. I suppose if you had ignored the message, and the impersonator doesn't have access to your email account, then you would have been able to continue logging in with your old password as before.

Does Wikivoyage support two-factor authentication? If so, that would be another layer of protection. Make sure that both Wikivoyage and your email account use strong passwords that are different from each other and from any other websites you use.

@WhatamIdoing: does the WMF have any other recommendations about account security? —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:52, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

(By the way, @Ikan Kekek: you may have just received a notification that an IP address starting with "45" tried and failed to log into your account. If so, don't worry, that was me making sure that the temporary password you posted above isn't still active.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:57, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Cool. I thought I had a very strong password, but that someone had cracked it. I had just gotten a third notice a few hours ago that there had been repeated failed attempts to log in as Ikan Kekek from another device. I looked at two-factor authentication but couldn't figure out how to make it work on a laptop. I am careful to use unique passwords, as you said. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:03, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Ikan Kekek, Ground Zero: I just checked the email account associated with my Wikimedia accounts (it's an old one that's no longer my main one) and I got an identically worded message a couple hours ago, citing the same IP address which traces back to Taiwan. Unlike you, Ikan, I've never been notified of any failed attempts to log in under my name. At the moment I'm not more than mildly concerned about the integrity of this account, mainly because of Granger's explanation above - it seems (correct me if I'm wrong, Granger) that there's no reason to believe the bad actor has access to either my Wikimedia password or my email password. But, needless to say, I'll be watching out for further developments on this front and acting accordingly with regards to security if the situation should change. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:36, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

A thousand thanks for your vigilance. Ground Zero (talk) 03:44, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

I think that w:en:Wikipedia:User account security might be the best general page. m:Community Tech/Password Reset Update, when it's finished, is probably your best hope. Admins are common targets. If you need help with two-factor authentication, then it's possible that the m:Stewards could help you out. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:44, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

If what WhatamIdoing says about "admins [being] common targets" refers specifically to spurious password reset attempts, I guess this whole series of incidents represents a mere nuisance, rather than a clear and present danger to the integrity of our user accounts. In a strange way, you could almost see it as a positive development: Wikivoyage is now a big enough deal for people to bother trying this kind of thing here. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:49, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

I got one of these messages, too. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:56, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Shantou

Actually, about 1100UTC+8, official sources claimed that Shantou was under lockdown, I just forgot to change Wuhan to Shantou. But anyways, the lockdown was found to be false alarm... Anyways, thanks for your help! 廣九直通車 (talk) 10:46, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

I understand. I'm glad it was a false alarm - thank goodness for small favors. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:49, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Ready to help

Yes, Ikan, I am ready for any discussion on Kerala and Karnataka. Now I live in Mysore. Regards, --Prof TPMS (talk) 06:59, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Happy New Year. Glad to hear from you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:23, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Sex tourism policy

I'm beginning to think that we're not getting any closer to consensus on overhauling the policy. I am thinking of proposing to address the original issue by proposing to (1) specifically permit listings for saunas and other places where consenting adults have sex, and (2) prohibiting listings for saunas, bars and other establishments that allow prostitution in the premises or take payments from prostitutes or from their customers. This would address the specific issue, and let us to move the discussion onward, or come back to it later. It will not satisfy ChibbyWimbus or Pashley. Do you think there might be a consensus for this limited change? Thanks for your ongoing assistance in this discussion. Ground Zero (talk) 10:10, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

I think there is a consensus for a change like that, but I think it would be not that a bar or hotel allows prostitution but that they directly profit from it, such as by accepting bar fines or taking a cut of the payment to a pimp or prostitute. I don't think there would be a consensus to delist all hotels that rent rooms with a wink and a nod, because an objection was already made that in some cities, if hotels that tolerate prostitution can't be listed, no hotels can be listed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:42, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. That is helpful. I will bring forward a modified proposal. Ground Zero (talk) 13:14, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks

https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Places_with_unusual_names&curid=155983&diff=3925028&oldid=3925023

I shouldn't be editing before morning coffee :) --Ypsilon (talk) 07:03, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Now I'm smiling, too. :-) Enjoy your day! Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

About your note on addition of Colombian Brands

Just received your message, always appreciated. Sorry if it was perceived that way, I was starting to edit section with Colombian Brands but could not finish it. I will be more careful next time. Thanks for your note —The preceding comment was added by Cascianini (talk • contribs)

I already read your reply and replied to it on your user talk page. Please sign each post on a talk page by typing 4 tildes in a row at the end of the post. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:24, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Caution/Warning Box Discussion

I was wondering if you could provide some thoughts on how warning boxes and caution boxes should be used with regards to the new coronavirus outbreak. I have started a discussion over at Wikivoyage talk:Template index which appears to be the most logical place to do this. JRHorse (talk) 14:22, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

I'll have a look. I don't know if there's a policy about this. If I express an opinion in the absence of one, it should be given the same weight as anyone else's opinion and no more. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Correct typos in one click

Thank you for your interest in the project, it is known that many corrections aren't the right correction since it was created automatically, the missing is not to comment about typos but to click "replace", "type" or "remove" buttons, to correct or dismiss suspect words. These buttons are added by user script as instructed in the project page. You are welcome to add the script and start correcting typos in one click. Thank you, Uziel302 (talk) 09:32, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Sorry for inappropriately commenting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:57, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Please see my user talk page

Please see my user talk page ASAP. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:33, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Spam

Hello, re this, the spam itself is in what they entered into the template. This is sort of vanity spammer. This is a crosswiki spammer which did this multiple times and was globally locked for exactly this kind of behaviour. Hope you understand and this explains.--Camouflaged Mirage (talk) 10:51, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

OK, yes, I see it now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:12, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

File:Atomium.JPG

In response to Special:Diff/3938289, according to commons:Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Belgium#Freedom of panorama, Belgium has freedom of panorama, making the image uploadable to Wikimedia Commons. GreenComputer (talk) 14:16, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, Belgium's freedom of panorama laws changed in 2016. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:41, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

That's great! In that case, carry on. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:30, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Girga

By the way, Girga really belongs to Middle Egypt. Of course it is not well known but contains some nice examples of Islamic architecture as shown in German Wikivoyage. --RolandUnger (talk) 06:48, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm happy for anyone except the Telstra man to start an article about it at en.wikivoyage (or, of course, better, translate it from the de.wikivoyage article) and then link it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:25, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm impressed by the use of photos in the German article; looks nice. We on Envoy don't necessarily need to use more photos, but presenting them at different alignments and in larger sizes definitely works in a Wikivoyage setting, per de:Girga.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:38, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't know if I love blocks of photos in the middle of the page. It is a possible style, if we chose to use it, but so far, we have chosen not to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:18, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

translation request

Buonasera da Coreca, ti scrivo per salutarti e sapere come stai. Io sto abbastanza bene per ora. Ti chiedo una cortesia se puoi e vuoi, potresti per favore aiutarmi gentilmente alla creazione della pagina in inglese della mia cittadina? Io non sono pratico di questo portale e di questi tools, e il mio inglese fa un po' pietà. Fortuna che sto riprendendo a studiarlo all'università, sono infatti iscritto a Scienze turistiche. Naturalmente se posso fare qualcosa per te chiedi pure tranquillamente, sono a tua disposizione. Ti chiedo solo la cortesia di tradurre la paginetta di Coreca, anche per dare impulso ai corachesi che sono oltremare che non li abbiamo dimenticati e per altro ancora concernente il turismo. Certo di una tua risposta ti ringrazio in anticipo e spero di aver presto tue notizie. cordialmente!--Luigi Salvatore Vadacchino (talk) 16:35, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Ciao, Luigi! Posso aiudare di tradurre l'articolo, pero ho visto ch'il non ha tanto di sostanza al momento. C'e qualcosa da vedere lì, qualcosa da mangiare, nessun albergo? In questa condizione, dubbio francamente che vale la pena di traddurelo. Se puoi mettere più d'informazioni utili nello'articolo, sarebbe il mio piacere da comminciare un'articolo qui a en.voy. Rimani in contatto per piacere. Cordialmente, Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:32, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Buongiorno di nuovo, ho dato una bella sistemata all'articolo, ora quando vuoi e puoi lo traduci. Grazie ancora!--Luigi Salvatore Vadacchino (talk) 07:18, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Grazie ti! Comminceró di tradurre presto. Stasera, comminceró l'articolo qui. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:52, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Buongiorno da Coreca, ti scrivo per dirti che ho appena finito di migliorare la maggior parte dell'articolo in italiano, manca solo che riempi la parte degli eventi, ossia le sagre e la festa della Madonna. per il resto ti ringrazio per quello che stai facendo.--Luigi Salvatore Vadacchino (talk) 11:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Prego. Lavoreró ancora per tradurre più tardi. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:07, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

User talk:Eneniflo

You were mentioned in a new post on that page, although without a link so you might not be aware. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:43, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

It's fine. Eneniflo knows the city s/he lives in. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:16, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Gun ownership

I'm not going to edit war on this, but I just want to point out that I've seen interviews at NRA conventions, and most people in those interviews said that they consider gun ownership to be a basic human right. Sure, I've met more people who support gun control than gun rights absolutists, but that's also because I live in Chicago, which is a deeply blue area (except for the bankers and managers, who tend to be hard core Republicans nationwide). But I would say that I wouldn't be the least surprised if half the American population considers gun ownership to be a basic human right and opposes even the slightest bit of gun control legislation. Don't forget that Fox News has the highest viewership rating among all news channel in the US. The dog2 (talk) 01:09, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for not edit warring about this. I don't think a rebuttal would be travel-related, so I'll let your remarks stand. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:20, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

And just to make it clear, this has nothing to do with my own political opinions, and I will decline to state them here. This is just about observations I have made. I actually saw cardboard signs advertising guns at a garage sale while driving through rural Utah and Idaho, so this is certainly something that is uniquely American. You would not see thing like that in rural Australia. The dog2 (talk) 01:44, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

While public opinion polls don't ask whether respondents think gun ownership is a "basic human right", recent polls show strong majorities in the US in favour of greater restrictions. I haven't found polls on the question of "fun control legislation". That would be a different matter. ;-) Ground Zero (talk) 01:47, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah. I think the geographical distribution of those survey results would vary widely. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:39, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

@Ground Zero: By the way, I heard there was a mass shooting in Canada a few days ago. Is everything fine on your end? The dog2 (talk) 03:41, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Yes, I'm fine. Thanks for asking. It is a horrific nothing to happen in a quiet, friendly place like small town Nova Scotia. It's hard to fathom why that happened. Ground Zero (talk) 11:40, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Very unusual for Canada, but there are crazy people everywhere. I didn't think you lived in Nova Scotia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:28, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

No, I'm in Toronto. But I don't expect people to remember that. I have family and friends in many provinces, but none in Nova Scotia at the moment. Ground Zero (talk) 12:38, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm aware that Canada is a huge country, bigger than the U.S. and smaller than only Russia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:40, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

USA as a land of contrasts

Do you think this is worth mentioning in the main USA article. At least I think it's interesting for people to know. For instance, the US is the undisputed number one in the world in medical research, but fares the worst in the developed world in terms of access to healthcare for the average person. It is home to the highest concentration of the world's greatest scientists, but also home to the highest proportion of non-believers in science in the developed world. It has the highest concentration of the world's top university, but the public school system for K-12 fares poorly by the developed world's standards. And GDP per capita is at an all-time high (at least it was before COVID-19 hit), but the average salary of the bottom 50% has declined over the past 30 years. There's probably more, but these are just some I can think of. The dog2 (talk) 23:44, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Maybe, but best to discuss it at Talk:United States of America. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:03, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Removing of changes

Why there is other dive centers listed in Aqaba article. I just want to give people more information. There is more than 20 dive centers in Aqaba. Why listed only 3? Natalia Zlobina (talk) 09:53, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Read Wikivoyage:Don't tout, then ask me or someone else questions if there's anything you still don't understand. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:04, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Transnistria

Hi IK. Just a heads-up: whenever you see an anonymous IP starting with 217.19. substituting "Transnistria" for "Pridnestrovie", don't even think of doubting, it's a local nationalist trying to "stamp out the Romanian Nazi cultural domination" and the despised Latin (aka Romanian) term. They're active in Wikipedia, too. Block, revert, ignore. Ibaman (talk) 11:55, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

They never participate in discussions? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:40, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

When they do, they usually call us "gay Nazi supremacists". You might remember some of these. I actually denied recognition on some such profanities in Talk:Transnistria not a long ago. 22:21, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I do remember one such individual. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:27, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

• another heads-up. Keep an eye on this IP number that made a lot of edits today. It's a pattern of enforcing British spelling, oddly familiar to me. I'm getting positive it's somebody we know. Ibaman (talk) 01:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I've tangled with this editor before. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:56, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm glad you're on watch as of this moment. Let's act together if needed. Ibaman (talk) 01:59, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Do you remember the IP user who was really nasty to StellarD - and wrong - in the Dhofar article? I don't think they were ever blocked, because they use various different IPs and their irrelevant changes to English English spellings and expressions, editing out of colorful language and ornariness have skirted the line. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

The thing is, though, ornery or not, he's absolutely right: it's Southeast Asian, and his citation of Wv:Capitalization is correct. I routinely correct these kinds of capitalization errors. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:04, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

The loss of lively prose is what saddens me the most. I thought of hard revert, but would ask for opinions first. Ibaman (talk) 03:10, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

That's his M.O. If you'd like me to give my opinion, are there any specific edits you can link? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:21, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Btw, I'm also irritated by the "dullification" of our lively prose this user engages in. And the fact that the IP changes all the time, so there's no real way to talk to them. I'm beginning to think that allowing IP-user edits is more trouble than it's worth; it's not difficult to take a minute to set up an account - the Telstra guy manages it multiple times a day! - and it would be a lot better for us.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:22, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

[undent] I would tend to oppose that. I edited as an IP for years before I registered, and I'm not unique in that respect. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:16, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I used to comment on web content, or make corrections, now and then when it was possible. A few times I registered an account to do so. Quite soon I decided not to bother. If they don't want my input as a passer by, why would I? I haven't even registered my account at Phabricator – the few comments I'd have liked to make have not seemed worth the trouble. When registering, there are often captchas, questions compromising my privacy (I could lye of course, but I don't always feel like), need to come up with one more password (and perhaps even save it somewhere), user agreements, ... I have to really know I want to invest in that particular site to make the effort. --LPfi (talk) 10:54, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I get those arguments. They make sense. I guess we just have to try harder to talk to this person's IPs before they change.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:06, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't hold out much hope. I've been dealing with this guy for years. Please revert any dullification. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:24, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

About Xinjiang

I can see that your post was targeted at me, so I want to clarify. I am not trying to promote the Chinese government's narrative, and for that matter I did not quote Chinese state media at all. I am well aware that they serve as the Chinese government's propaganda mouthpiece, which is why I don't trust them. I was in fact the one who added the point in the China article that black people are being discriminated against in China (which the Chinese government downplayed). I am just skeptical of the mainstream Western corporate media's narrative (and if you count yourself as a progressive, I hope you can understand why) as well (and I've been getting more and more skeptical as I grow older). And just to be clear, I am not disputing the fact that the detention camps exist, or that the Chinese government has launched a harsh crackdown on political dissent in the region and detained many Uyghurs. I was just raising some concerns about how that figure was arrived at, but if you are sure that the study was done properly to arrive at that estimate, I won't stand in your way. If you can find some fault in the concerns raised in those articles I cited in the discussion, you're welcome to let me know if I am perhaps missing something. The dog2 (talk) 01:09, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

My friend, when I ask a question, it's a question, not a statement, and it's not intended to cast aspersions on anyone. I know very well that you are a person of good faith and not a propagandist of any kind. I'm disappointed that you misunderstood my intentions or thought that I could have such a crazy notion of who or what you are, and I'm sorry I unintentionally offended you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

No worries. I apologise too if I misunderstood your intentions. At least everything is clear now. The dog2 (talk) 03:56, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

We're cool. I asked the question because I thought you and a couple of other regulars might know better than I. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:00, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

VOA account

Hello. Please block User:‎Gisela Lázaro. --Minorax (talk) 03:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

That was already taken care of. Thanks for your vigilance. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:51, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Greetings and an help for Coreca

Ciao, ti scrivo per salutarti e sapere come stai. Io sto abbastanza bene per ora. Ho finito di scrivere su Coreca, quando puoi e vuoi ti andrebbe di tradurre la parte restante? in modo che io possa farla tradurre in altre lingue. Per il resto spero che vada tutto bene, qui piove e sembra febbraio, mah! Comunque domani sei invitato virtualmente a prendere un aperitivo da me a Coreca, compio infatti 35 anni, e quella notte di 35 anni fa, venni alla luce vicino la Chiesetta di Coreca, poi venni portato e dichiarato a Paola...ma storia lunga che non sto qui a raccontarti per ora. Ti ringrazio per tutto il possibile che fai per me, grazie ancora e a presto!--Luigi Salvatore Vadacchino (talk) 15:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Tanti auguri per l'anniversario! Mi dispiace di dimenticare quel progetto di traduzione. Il mio computer era offline per due settimane e mezzo prima di questa settimana. Tentaró da fare ancora un pó. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Excuse me, I'll write in English for a second: I have to admit this isn't one of my major priorities, so I've been slow with this. I'll try to get back to it, but it might not be quick. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:19, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Districtification

Hi. In addition to what I wrote back in May, another reservation I have about districtifying Rockingham is how new the user is. As of the time of writing, they have less than 20 edits to their name, and before today hadn't edited for almost a month. I'd be worried that they'd get started on districtifying, then disappear for a long period, or possibly forever, leaving the job unfinished.

Would you mind confirming whether this is a reasonable doubt to have? If so, is it reasonable to bring it up with the user if they do make a proper, detailed, district proposal? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:05, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I think it's reasonable to ask the proposer to see it through. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:02, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:46, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Off topic

Very off topic here, through Andre, I found you on Facebook, and sent you a friend request. Very gladly. Andre's postings and updates are a big plus in my timeline, mas it's nice to have other channels to communicate. I hope you add me there as well. Let's keep together in these times of tribulation, as I told him. Alô the best as always. Ibaman (talk) 19:12, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Cool. Send me a message there, too, so I know who I'm looking for. I otherwise probably wouldn't recognize you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:18, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Just did it again. By the way, this time I'm really hopeful, the right-wing clowns shall not prevail down here in my country. Ibaman (talk) 03:48, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm glad it's easier to impeach leaders and remove them from office in Brazil than in the U.S. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:53, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry

Hi. I think I may have pushed back too aggressively on Travellers' Pub#Blanking the user page in question and on Carrotflower's talk page. If I upset or irritated you, I'm sorry.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:29, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

It's not worth further discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:51, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

that's how you respond to an apology?--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:42, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I was a little irritated, but it's really not worth thinking about or discussing more. We're cool. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:22, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Okay, cool.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:24, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Bureaucrats

I've seen in the page in the subject that you are the most active bureaucrat, so I've contacted you to take care about my nomination in Wikivoyage:User rights nominations to allow me to proceed autonomously on the listing editor's development. Thanks, --Andyrom75 (talk) 09:35, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I've been watching it. As stated at Wikivoyage:User rights nominations, we wait 14 days before promoting people with successful nominations, so I'll take care of this later today if no other bureaucrat beats me to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:21, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Ok thanks. I'll wait for you, to update the script and ask in the lounge to formally test it, before activating it to all users. --Andyrom75 (talk) 17:08, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:05, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for bothering you again. As specified by WOSlinker I need to be also interface administrator to change MediaWiki pages. Could you add me to that group too? Thanks, --Andyrom75 (talk) 06:25, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

No problem. Done. Carry on! Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:26, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! :-) --Andyrom75 (talk) 07:36, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your work! Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:41, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Regarding Kribi, Cameroon and Article Headings

Hi. I saw your proofreading note "Wikivoyage hasn't used "Get out" for years. I hope none of this article was copied from Wikitravel!" - thanks for that. Sorry, I was just flying off the cuff trying to remember the standard template for Wikivoyage articles and put that in erroneously. I'm very amateur at this, hope to go over more of the tutorials for contributing to Wikivoyage as time goes along. But, don't worry, it is my original work, what I put down there for Kribi. Thanks. Lazarus1255 (talk) 18:14, 2 August 2020 (UTC)Lazarus1255

Great. The easiest way to produce a standard article template is to do a search for the article name you want to start, click the link that says "Create the page "[whatever]" on this wiki!", and then when you see "To start, please click on one of the following links to pre-fill this article with the standard sections:

City • City District • Region • National Park • Phrasebook • Huge airport • Dive site • Disambiguation • Redirect" and click the type of article you want to start. That will produce the template you need.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:01, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you so much. I'll try to follow that from here on out. Lazarus1255 (talk) 00:20, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Hello Ikan Kekek, thanks for pointing out the mistake and amended it. It was not intentional. Will pay more attention next time. Thanks Heyorange (talk) 04:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, good. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:20, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Diseases named after people, places and animals

The WHO has taken far too long, but they issued a recommendation a few years ago to not do that. So in fact, diseases might have to be named for something, but they should no longer be named for any of the above due to the very notable negative effects... Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:15, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Understood. But that doesn't make place names after which diseases were named thereby unusual names. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:16, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

It does not, indeed. Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:58, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Dorohoi

Why you deleted the page?--MSClaudiu (talk) 10:17, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Already addressed on your user talk page, but if you have any further questions after you read that, please do ask, and I'll be glad to discuss this further. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:19, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The article

Hi! You recently left me a message about an article that I created. I have moved it to my userspace and will put it into mainspace when the time is right. Thanks for your help! Prahlad balaji (talk) 22:42, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Great! Thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:02, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for copyediting my article, Queen Creek. Could you give me tips on how to properly create an article? Thanks. --Prahlad balaji (talk) 13:31, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Sure. For that kind of article, you'd want to start with Wikivoyage:Quick small city article template, but the simplest way to do that is to do a search for the title you want to write about, click on it if nothing exists there and then select "City" from the options you're given of what kind of article to write. Then, presto, the small city template appears!

A second point is to check for articles about other towns and if they exist, avoid including listings for anything in those towns in the article you started. Also, please avoid red links like Maricopa County, Arizona which will never be the name of an article (see Wikivoyage:Naming conventions), and avoid including any encyclopedic content from Wikipedia that's unsuited to a travel guide. Also make sure to cite the Wikipedia article you gleaned content from in an edit summary and/or on the article's talk page.

Finally, if you're not looking at the article history to read other editors' edit summaries, please do!

Anything else you'd like to know?

Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:47, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Nothing! Thanks! Prahlad balaji (talk) 03:43, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Sure thing. If anything else occurs to you, by all means post here again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:04, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Update request for Hagia Sophia and Chora

Hello.

Can you rewrite and update the status of Hagia Sophia and Chora, after they were converted into mosques, in any article they appear şn Wikivoyage? After their conversion, i.e. after their museum status were dropped and reopened as mosques, no entrance fee is charged anymore. However, as they are now mosques, a strict dress code has been introduced to every visitor, whether they are tourists or worshippers. Veils are compulsory for females, and entering them in miniskirts, shorts (for both genders) and sleeveless shirts (for both genders) are now banned, like in any other mosque. However, as they are tourist attractions, just like the Blue Mosque, veils and sarong-like clothes will be sold or issued. During prayer time, just as it is the case in the Blue Mosque, tourists will not be allowed to enter and all the Christian frescoes and symbols are covered. See also news sources for the latest information.

Yours sincerely, an IP from Turkey 31.200.20.245 17:47, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

In the time it took to write this, you could have made the changes you're asking me to make. So why don't you? Wikis are for everyone to edit; editing is not a job that's given to admins, and I'll remind you that like you, we are purely volunteers. It's not like we get paid for this. So plunge forward and make the edits! Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:51, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

this user reported issues of slowed-down Internet in Turkey that prevented him of doing so. I made some updates on these listings. Ibaman (talk) 00:12, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I see. Thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:19, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Thank you for giving me tips on creating articles! It really helped me. Prahlad balaji (talk) 04:18, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Sure thing! Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:55, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Greetings and an help for Coreca

Buongiorno da Coreca, ti scrivo per salutarti e sapere come stai, io sto abbastanza bene. Ti scrivo inoltre per chiederti se puoi aiutarmi "solo" a correggere gli errori che ho fatto di traduzione e di battutitura. Naturalmente se posso fare qualcosa per te chiedi pure. un saluto e a presto!--Luigi Salvatore Vadacchino (talk) 02:29, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Ciao, Luigi. Vedrò più tardi. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:47, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Citation

Hi! I just made a content of Goryeong, and you left me a message about references. I am not copying but using the references in the cite. I am confused of how I should cite this in this case? Thanks in advance! —The preceding comment was added by Gyeongbuker (talk • contribs)

Sure. First of all, a preliminary: On talk pages on this site, please sign your username at the end of each of your posts by typing 4 tildes (~) in a row. OK, the way we cite sources we refer to is to put the information in an edit summary, which we type in the "Summary" box you will see below your edit screen. But the other issue is that the format you used is not at all in keeping with Wikivoyage style, so please also look at Wikivoyage:Small city article template and also have a look at any small city article in Category:Star articles or Category:Guide articles to see what Wikivoyage articles look like. For example, the Albuquerque article is a star article. I think it uses a Wikivoyage:Large city article template. Ann Arbor may use a small city article template. But those are just the first two cities whose articles I see among the star articles in alphabetical order. Look around and then ask me any other questions that occur to you.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:36, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

This is a bit difficult, but thanks! It helped a lot. Gyeongbuker (talk) 02:19, 17 September 2020 (UTC)Gyeongbuker

OK, but please look at your user talk page again. You might want to look at existing articles that need edits at first before you start any more articles. I'm not sure the county articles are needed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:30, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Westport Updates

Hi Ilhan, thanks for your reminders, you can probably tell I'm new at this. I will update as you requested -- except for "The Adventure HQ" is actually their byline for that business. One of the other things I haven't figured out is how to append my reply to your message -- I tried looking it up and was at a loss. I'll figure it out soon.--PDXMaria (talk) 05:17, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Just click "edit", skip a line, type a colon to indent and type your reply. I think I already took care of the things I mentioned to you. I know you're a new user. Welcome! We were all new once. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:06, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

By the way, I would still make the point that "well-appointed" doesn't really say anything but is a favorite term of hotel marketers. It's most useful to the traveler to describe the appearance with specifics. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:27, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

PDXMaria, could you explain a little more about how "The Adventure HQ" is a genuine alternate name and not a promotional slogan? The fact that they, say, put it on their letterhead or whatever wouldn't change that, but I think I may not have understood what you mean by "byline". Also, I'd like a reply to my previous post. "Well-appointed" is on the list of words to avoid, for the reasons mentioned there: "Hotel companies love to use this phrase; travellers are still trying to figure out what it means." Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:31, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for your pointers. Doing the best I can. To your earlier comments - I'm a tourist actually staying in Carters Beach for the last six months so am an enthusiastic supporter of the local area, and of the motel that I've been living in (Carters by the Sea). I do think "well-appointed" means something to travelers, at least to me and I don't think I'm alone; given the controversy, I took it out and overall simplified the listing. Re: "The Adventure HQ" -- it's on their building, I'll double-check today when I go into town and stop in to talk to them.--PDXMaria (talk) 23:03, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Great! And thank you very much for adding content that's helpful to other travellers! That's the entire point of this guide and what can make it so much better! Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:05, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Charleston New Zealand

Hi Ikan, thank you for adding the banner for Charleston. I was going to struggle with it later. I had uploaded an image to WikiCommons, and was going to work with that. I'm grateful that you jumped in! --PDXMaria (talk) 02:30, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome. By all means, replace the default banner when you can!

A word on how to most easily insert a WV:Small city article template into a new article:

(1) Type the name of the place in the "Search Wikivoyage" box on the upper right; (2) If there is no preexisting article, you'll get the results 'Create the page "[Name]" on this wiki!'; (3) Click on the red-linked name in that result; (4) In the third paragraph under the "Creating [Name]" heading, you'll see "To start, please click on one of the following links to pre-fill this article with the standard sections:"; (5) Click "City" on the line below that. Then just start filling in content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:42, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Ikan, for those tips. Hopefully that'll help me not lose a bunch of work. The way I first started it was by copying/pasting from Westport and then modifying it.. and an hour later I lost all my work. Oh well.

Q: The Westport listing doesn't have (New Zealand) after the name on the article page. Charleston does. Which should it be?

Q: When I Google "wikivoyage charleston nz" the article doesn't come up. I can find it when I go to WikiVoyage first, but only if I put in NZ -- if I don't put in NZ, Charleston doesn't come up in the list. Is there anything I can do to fix either of these? --PDXMaria (talk) 03:17, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I see what you mean: You're referring to what name is shown on the pagebanner. I fixed the issue for now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:25, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Take a look, it now says Westport, should I just Undo what you did? I don't know how to fix that. --PDXMaria (talk) 03:41, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I just learned something, fixed the banner label. --PDXMaria (talk) 03:50, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of that. Sorry for the mistake. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:45, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you

This meant a lot to me. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:44, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Sure thing. There's a time and place for that kind of talk, and that isn't it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:29, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Massachusetts

You sure that not joking about the BB is Captain Obvious? I saw a video once of a guy describing his experience visiting a Nazi death camp, and the first thing everyone did was take out their cameras. One couple even took a selfie in the cremation room! Mainmast Ballaster (talk) 14:45, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm not only not joking, but not joking about terrorist atrocities is specifically mentioned at Wikivoyage:Captain Obvious. Photography at Nazi death camps is something else, and is specifically addressed, for example, at Auschwitz#Respect. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:02, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Labial Toys

Can you please block Special:Contributions/121.72.13.99 and delete Wikivoyage:Labial Toys? Thanks, --DannyS712 (talk) 19:30, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Also Labial Toys DannyS712 (talk) 19:34, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Have dealt with this.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:44, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of this, ThunderingTyphoons! Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:52, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Ikeep thinking of jokes in russian

I am back, of sorts, after a very debilitaing illness, will give chapter and verse off wiki trust youare well !!! cheers JarrahTree (talk) 23:59, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

I have stayed well during this pandemic so far. I'm very sorry to hear about your illness, and I hope you're fully recovered. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:42, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

I have been told patience, sabar, and I am very pleased you have avoided the lurgie.. JarrahTree (talk) 04:32, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Problemantic editor

meta:Special:CentralAuth/YaoSissi2020 is globally locked, that may be why an IP editor tried to edit the page. The editor is also banned on en-wiki due to sockpuppetry.

If you are an Admin on the Commons, it might be worth looking at the editor's history there as well, under all of the socks including the suspected IP address used to edit User:YaoSissy2020 here. Davidwr (talk) 14:35, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

I participate on Commons but I'm an admin only on Wikivoyage. I appreciate the info, but it really wouldn't change my behavior, except that I'll be a bit more watchful for any further issues with that IP user. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:43, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Yoga spammer

Just so you know, the IP editor whose edits you reverted for touting actually created an account known as Skmishra5, which I had earlier banned for being a spambot. I've blocked the IP address for 6 months for block evasion, but please feel free to reduce the length of the block if you think it's too harsh. The dog2 (talk) 21:19, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Please don't disable talk page and email access for IP blocks unless absolutely necessary—if the IP address is reassigned or shared (which is common), it makes it almost impossible for users accidentally caught up in the block to tell us about the problem. I would also say that a 6-month block is way too long as a response to 17 minutes of touting from an IP address. Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits suggests three days as an initial length when blocking is necessary. Thanks for removing the touting, by the way. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:27, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Granger, doesn't block evasion by a registered user trigger an automatic indefinite block? The equivalent of that for an IP address would be like 3 months, or at least 1 month. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:44, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

I have adjusted the block settings to allow for email and talk page access, but I want to mention that the user was not just inserting touty language into articles. After I reverted Skmishra5's edits for touting (and provided to link to the relevant policy page in the edit summary, so the user should have been pinged on that), (s)he proceeded to create a page with no travel content and only advertising for their his/her business, which is why I proceeded to ban the user as a spambot. And the IP editor in question made the exact same edit as Skimshra5 after I had banned him/her, which is why this constitutes block evasion. I'm happy to reduce the block length to 1 month or 3 months if that's what both of you think is more proportionate an action. The dog2 (talk) 00:00, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for restoring email and talk page access. As far as I can tell, this tout's edits took place over a total of less than two hours, with less than 20 minutes coming from the anonymous IP. I don't see that an IP block of multiple months makes sense on that basis, considering that it's common for IP addresses to change or be shared. But I'll defer to you two on that. —Granger (talk · contribs) 05:46, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I see. Yeah, a bit of lenience could be offered in that situation. However, I think I'd block for a month but leave a user talk page message. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:35, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I'll reduce the block to one month, and restore talk page and email access to the tout's account. The reason why I came down so harsh is because (s)he was not just inserting touty listings into existing articles, but also creating pages with only touting and no travel content, but I guess we can be lenient in this case since was over a relatively short period. If the user starts using his/her talk page for touting, then I'll restore the block. The dog2 (talk) 15:59, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Let me clarify that I'm not really thinking of this in terms of lenience vs. harshness, but rather a matter of costs vs. benefits to the project and avoiding collateral damage. Since the tout was active very briefly, there's not much reason to think they'll try to come back months from now, and there's not much reason for confidence that they'll still have the same IP address months from now either. (So the expected benefits of a long block are relatively low, and the risk of collateral damage is relatively high, compared to a disruptive user who is active at the same IP address multiple times over a period of weeks or months.) If they do start touting again from the same IP address after a month it will be very easy to block it again. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:57, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree. I also don't think a month-long block is lenient. The next time, it could be 3 months, but that's really unnecessary when we're dealing with a low-volume tout. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:44, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Broadway

Hi Ikan!

Thanks for adding more POIs to the Broadway itinerary. I added listings that were in the articles (all See listings, and some Do and Buy listings that are notable/famous, like the Macy's department store, or seemed notable based on their descriptions), but I wasn't sure which other places merit a listing. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:39, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

You bet! I feel like an itinerary up Broadway requires more listings so that people know something about the interesting buildings they're passing. I'll eventually add the listings to the district articles, too, but there's a lot more to add. w:Broadway (Manhattan)#Notable buildings will be useful to us, and w:List of buildings and structures on Broadway in Manhattan will probably be useful, too. I'll remember to look through those articles for buildings I recognize, like and/or consider important. For the Bronx and other points north, w:U.S. Route 9 in New York looks like it'll be useful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:01, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Mozart opera overtures

I've watched Le Nozze di Figaro, Don Giovanni, Così fan tutte and Die Zauberflöte, and as far as I recall, none of those operas feature snippets of later musical numbers in their overture. Do you know of any Mozart operas that do? The dog2 (talk) 21:04, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Listen again. I think all 4 do, but Don Giovanni, Le Nozze di Figaro and Die Zauberflöte certainly do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:30, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry

Yea sorry about that, no disruption intended, I didn't read the sentence properly when I did that --Thegooduser (talk) 01:25, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Not a problem! Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:30, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

small typo in your last posting

16:30, 18 November 2020 (UTC) —The preceding comment was added by Ottawahitech (talk • contribs)

Hi. I have no idea which edit you're referring to, but any time I make a small typo, just edit it, either with the "minor edit" symbol or with an edit summary of "typo" or something. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:00, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi Ikan Kekek/archive I can't remember which typo I was looking at, but I can probably find it if it is important to you. By the way the reason I notified you is because fixing typos in someone's else comments is considered taboo on enwiki. Cheers, Ottawahitech (talk) 16:03, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh, this is in a talk page post by me? You can give me a link to the edit next time. Just click the "History" tab in the relevant talk page and look for the specific difference. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:58, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Usually small typos are just left alone. If the meaning becomes unclear because of the typo, one can ask in the thread (or – if warranted for some reason – on the user talk page, linking the edit or section). Link fixes and the like are sometimes done in others' comments, but that is delicate enough that I don't want to give advice on it. –LPfi (talk) 21:13, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

I leave typos in other people's comments on talk pages alone. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:16, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	I am giving you this for all your hard work on Wikivoyage. Cupper52 (talk) 09:00, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate your understanding. I've deleted several of the links you've added because they were circular (ended up going back to the same page) or red (no such article). Keep on editing, and don't hesitate to ask me any question you like. Within reason (no meaning of life or whether there's a Supreme Being, you know). :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:09, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Da capo arias

I'm a little torn on this, so I'd like to ask if you think it's worth mentioning what this term means. You'll need to know it if you watch a Baroque, Rococo or even early Classical period opera, though as we know, the only operas of those periods that are in the modern standard repertoire are the Handel and Gluck operas, and the operas that people are most likely to watch today are those from the Romantic period onwards; even Mozart operas don't really feature da capo arias. So yeah, I can also see the argument that this is going too far into the weeds for an average traveller looking to see an opera, since it's highly unlikely that a traveller will get the chance to watch an opera by say, Vivaldi or Josef Myslivecek. The dog2 (talk) 07:53, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Do you mean whether to include the term in European classical music#Terminology? I'd say no, though if we ever spin off a topic on opera, then we should include it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:10, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. But since you brought it up, do you think we have enough material to spin off an article about opera? It's true that I like hunting down more obscure Baroque to Classical period operas since there are many hidden gems that are not by Mozart, Gluck or Handel, but I'm certainly no expert. And since you're a flautist, I recommend you check out André Grétry. The aria La Fauvette from his opera Zémire et Azor has very exquisite flute solo parts. The dog2 (talk) 08:19, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I like Gretry and have played some recorder music by him. I've never seen any operas by him, though. I think a travel topic on opera and opera houses is possible. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:38, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Here's an example. Unfortunately, this is an abridged version and not the full version. The aria that I mentioned starts at 44:29. Even though the opera is quite obscure, the aria is a rather famous one and I think you probably would have heard it before. The dog2 (talk) 01:17, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the link! I don't recognize the aria. Too bad the flutist isn't very good. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Here's a concert version with a better flautist then: [50]. The dog2 (talk) 02:34, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, that performance was way better! Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:41, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Speaking of which, if we ever decide to spin off a topic, should we have one single article for both opera and ballet, or separate articles for each one? After all, ballets are usually performed in opera houses, and there are numerous operas, in particular the French ones, that feature ballet segments. And as you know, even Mozart's Le Nozze di Figaro and Handel's Alcina both feature dance segments (though I'm not sure if those dance segments would be considered ballet). The dog2 (talk) 22:43, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

It really depends on how much travel-related content there is. Going to an opera is a very distinct experience from going to a ballet even when you're seeing an opera that includes ballets. For now, I think we should try to improve the article on European classical music, though my heart isn't in it during this extended enforced period of non-performance in the U.S. I also want to delete the totally inadequate list of Broadway songwriters and songs from the Musical theatre article. With all due respect, it sucks, and we aren't going to make it good because long lists are for Wikipedia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:26, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

No offence taken. I agree that long lists are problematic, but I think we need to think of a way to cover the important figures in the development of musical theatre. At the very least, I think Cole Porter, Rodgers & Hammerstain, Stephen Sondheim and Andrew Lloyd Webber need to be mentioned, and there are probably others I am missing out to. I've watched two operas and a ballet at the Met, and my hunch is that an opera is more formal, but maybe I'm wrong. Also, you'll find lots of young people who can appreciate ballet, but not a lot who can appreciate opera. I might have the only person under 50 in the audience those times I went to watch an opera. I most certainly understand your frustration; my family is now seeing their lives slowly get back to normal in Singapore, while I'm stuck in America alone having to deal with this nonsense thanks to work commitments, but let's both hope that things will get better next year, and we can start going to shows once more. The dog2 (talk) 01:20, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

And playing concerts again! I think there are too many classic Broadway show composers and lyricists we'd need to cover. Let's not bite off more than we can chew. Wikipedia covers such details. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:24, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Libya

Thanks for the addition. I was somewhat uneasy leaving it at that, but did not easily find a way to word it well. The WP article I was using said nothing of the sort in the intro, and the part on the topic was too convoluted. So I hoped somebody would come along :-) LPfi (talk) 23:23, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Sure thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:31, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Libretto

I added something about the definition of libretto in the European classical music article, so could you please check to see that there's no mistake. Also, if I'm not wrong, the equivalent of a libretto in musical theatre is known the book, and I added a sentence describing that in the relevant article. Please feel free to delete if I made any mistakes. The dog2 (talk) 21:11, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I saw the edits on libretti and they looked fine to me. In terms of the book for a musical, I don't think that's quite equivalent because to my understanding, it doesn't include the lyrics of the songs. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:25, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I mentioned that in musical theatre article. So correct me if I'm wrong, but that would mean that in a sung-through musical like Les Miserables, there would only be lyrics but no book. The dog2 (talk) 21:31, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that's right. The book would have all the staging and lighting directions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:39, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

OK. You're probably more familiar with this thing than I am since you're a professional musician, so if you don't mind, perhaps you could make corrections in the musical theatre article. And maybe add more important terminology that I may have missed out. The dog2 (talk) 21:48, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I want to double-check on this. I think I'm right but I'm not positive. Musical theater isn't my area of greatest expertise. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:56, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

I did a bit of Internet research. I'll ask my girlfriend for her opinion, but the sources I looked at didn't seem to include lighting, costuming and blocking directions in the book, but w:Musical theatre did include staging directions, so maybe that's just an oversight. I just made this edit, because I kind of doubt people would be talking about musicals without spoken dialogue as "bookless". But work in progress. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:46, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

"Germany existed in the 19th century before it was unified"

I would actually vehemently dispute this statement. Especially when one attempts to define a "German" identity that excludes Austria. And even then, what about all those border regions where Germans were either one ethnic group among many or even a minority? "Where to draw the line" was an important issue at the very least until 1870/1871 among German nationalists and it did not fully disappear from discourse until 1990 (well, among the non far right anyway) which is coincidentally right around the time the original version of Art. 23 GG was removed which allowed for it to be "applied to other parts of Germany" - an irredentist clause if ever there was one... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:00, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

People talked about Germany and Germans in the 18th century, too. I've read Quantz, remember. Maybe the exact differences between Germans and Austrians were fuzzy, but the concept of Germany and a German certainly existed, just as the concept of Italy and Italians existed. And I daresay, there's way more difference among Italians than among Germans. Are there any dialects of German spoken within Germany (or for that matter, Austria) that you don't understand? Do you speak Italian? I speak what's pretty much Toscana at a good conversational level in practice. I don't understand Napoletano and neither do the Senesi and other Northern Italians that I knew. That's not surprising when you see that linguists are now calling Napoletano a separate language. Spanish and Italian are more more mutually intelligible than Napoletano and standard Italian. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:12, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

There was certainly a concept of a "German people" even though they were divided into multiple small states. To my knowledge, Mozart identified as a German even though Salzburg is today part of Austria. And if you've watched some 18th-century operas like Mozart's Don Giovanni or Haydn's Orlando Paladino, they do reference Germany as a concept (as Alemagna; yes I know the term in modern Italian is Germania, but you get the point). And likewise, Italy existed as a concept even though it was not a unified country, since Mozart's Don Giovanni does mention Italia. What's perhaps most surprising is that the 18th-century Italians knew that China and Japan existed too, given that Haydn's Orlando Paladino mentions Pechino (Beijing) and Giappone (Japan)

But anyway, with regards to the "German" identity, my understanding is that the Austrians considered themselves to be Germans until well after World War II, given that Hitler was actually from Austria, and was very popular in Austria, and among the German-speaking minorities in Poland and Czechoslovakia. And to my understanding, the reason why the Swiss stayed neutral was as a compromise, because most of the Swiss-Germans wanted Switzerland to ally with Hitler, while the Swiss-French wanted Switzerland to ally with France. The dog2 (talk) 17:18, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

continental west Germanic languages once upon a time formed a dialect continuum including large parts of Benelux, Switzerland and into neighboring countries. A number of Swiss German dialects have survived which have a similar degree of partial intelligibility as Dutch. Luxembourg is trilingual with "German", French and Luxembourgish. It might have been considered "German" in 1820. The term was often used in the plural "die deutschen Lande" because the concept was so fuzzy.

As for Italy, the peninsula is a geographic feature regardless of politics and the term was in use in Roman times... And Europeans love using Roman terms Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:46, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, at least back in the 1840s some Germans celebrated Germany's thousand years of existence, as per Max Stirner: "Listen, even as I am writing this, the bells begin to sound, that they may jingle in for tomorrow the festival of the thousand years' existence of our dear Germany. Sound, sound its knell! You do sound solemn enough, as if your tongue was moved by the presentiment that it is giving convoy to a corpse. The German people and German peoples have behind them a history of a thousand years: what a long life! O, go to rest, never to rise again - that all may become free whom you so long have held in fetters. - The people is dead. - Up with me !" --Ypsilon (talk) 18:12, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the interesting thread. I'll address only a side point: Why would anyone be surprised that Italians in the 18th century knew about Japan and China? One Italian city state after another had a monopoly on Western European trade with the East before the voyage of Vasco da Gama, and all of you know who Marco Polo was. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:24, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

That's because China and Japan are so far from Italy, and both China and Japan had adopted isolationist policies at that time. In an era before there were steamships and railways, I would not have expected the average Italian to know about them. I guess what is more surprising for me though is that they would know of Beijing, a specific city in China. The dog2 (talk) 23:37, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

You can see why I'm not surprised. Opera librettists weren't really average Italians (those would be peasants at that time, probably, or maybe industrial laborers, but I think that set in a bit later in Italy), and preexisting knowledge doesn't necessarily disappear because a country becomes isolationist. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:47, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Six-month protection of Hong Kong

Hi Ikan Kekek, I'd like to talk about the protection of the Hong Kong article. This article sometimes gets helpful edits from IPs and new users, so protection has a non-zero cost. You protected it in response to two edits from the Rocky vandal – but protection won't help very much against that vandal, because they edit a wide range of articles and will happily move on to another one. I suggest we reduce the protection period to less than six months, to avoid too much of a barrier to productive edits like these[51][52]. —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:15, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Go ahead. I don't really know how to go forward. That fucking vandal is ruining things for everybody. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:30, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I've been tinkering with abuse filters to try to address the problem. It might help if some admins spend some of our time patrolling the abuse log (especially disallowed edits), which could allow us to block this vandal's IP addresses before their edits go live. It might also be possible to configure abuse filters differently to be more effective...I'll poke around and see what I can find.

Beyond that, just keep reverting, I guess. Sometimes I think of it like swatting mosquitoes. As the site grows there will be more vandals, I expect, but fortunately we have a dedicated team of admins who I think prevent most of it from being seen by readers. Don't let the bastards get you down! —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:56, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to get useful information from the disallowed edits log. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:57, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

If you see a new edit that's been disallowed, you can click "details" to see what the user was trying to do. If it's clearly a long-term abuser (like this one, for instance), I think it's appropriate to block them. If it's a constructive edit that was accidentally caught by the abuse filter, you can ask someone (like me, or another admin who edits abuse filters) to change the abuse filter to reduce false positives. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:05, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

I was also going to suggest a range block, but I was happy to discover that User:DannyS712 implemented one yesterday. I think this will be somewhat effective in reducing the number of edits we get from this vandal. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:29, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Good, and thanks for explaining. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:47, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Block of "Bostonride"

I am not sure an indefblock with blocking the use of their talk page is warranted. Yes we have had problems with boxing related vandalism, but the user is right in pointing out that "chess boxing" is indeed a real sport with spectators. I think we should give the user another chance, if only to give them enough rope to hang themselves as the saying goes... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:29, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree. This looks to me like it could be a good-faith user who didn't realize the edit they were restoring came from a long-term vandal. Better to give the benefit of the doubt, I'd say. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:23, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Actually, looking further at the contribution history, seems unlikely. Somehow I thought the revert was on the "Boston" talk page, but actually it was on an unrelated talk page, so that would have to be a big coincidence. Still, I'd probably leave talk page and email access, just in case. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:30, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Granger, do what you think best. I get your (plural) points. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:46, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

I posted to the user's user talk page and restored their access to their talk page, but I think they're clearly at least a problem user. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:02, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Ikan Kekek!

Happy New Year! Ikan Kekek,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikivoyage.
82.3.185.12^(T) 18:58, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I saw this on Wikipedia and just had to try it here! 82.3.185.12 19:01, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! You too, and stay safe and healthy! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:06, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

re:Federica Martino

Hi, as you can see in the Talk:Fasano, Wikimedia Italy is holding a project with the University of Bari. Federica is one of the students, Codas and I are the tutors of the project.--Ferdi2005 (talk) 17:10, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I see. Great, and thanks for explaining. Let me know if I can be of any help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Of course! You can help us review the articles: Isole Tremiti and Fasano are the ones we have already written, but more are coming!--Ferdi2005 (talk) 17:20, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Wonderful. Sure, I'll look over the articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:27, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Wordpress and Indian tickets

While reverting touting of pnrupdate.com, you called it Wordpress. Is there some connection I should be aware of? whois only says Godaddy (i.e. the domain is registered without publicly announcing the real operators).

I am also confused by the PNR scheme. Our article says you should buy tickets at irctc.co.in and check booking status at pnr-status.info, in another section we link indianrail.gov.in for checking instead. In a third section we say "Checking PNR status through online is the most popular way to check your PNR status. Following are some renowned websites where you can check your PNR status." and link railwayenquiry.net and indianrail.gov.in (said to be the official one).

It seems this checking PNR is a big thing in India, with many firms trying to tout their site. I suppose I should ask on the talk page whether we should prune away all links but the official ones, and probably tidy up the section. Do you know something about the issue?

–LPfi (talk) 13:26, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

The site says "Powered by Wordpress" on the lower right corner. Per what not to link to, we don't link to blog sites and such here. If you can check your PNR status effectively through the official site, no other site should be linked. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Ah! I didn't look close enough. I don't know whether the official sites work properly. I'll ask at the article talk page. –LPfi (talk) 22:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Cool. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:18, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	I'm giving this to you because of all your hard work in contributing to Wikivoyage. CatDog1234539 (talk) 18:09, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, but you're not trying to butter me up, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:21, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Venice

Hello Ikan Kekek, I agree with your opinion that the image of the San Marco Basilica was not a nice one. But the replacement by your edit does not give a good travelers view of it, because only the main dome of the Basilica is shown. It would fit well in an article like w:St Mark's Basilica. The image I included with this remark shows info important for the traveler:

• what it looks like
• the area is crowded
• an upstairs area of the Basilica can be visited

I think this type of view is more practical for this article. What do you think? --FredTC (talk) 12:20, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I have no objection to using that thumbnail. Thanks! Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:02, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Grand Pacific Drive a stub now?

Hi, I have just expanded Grand Pacific Drive, would it be a stub now? TravelAroundOz (talk) 23:15, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

It sure would. This is an itinerary article. You have to create a "Drive" section for the actual route. Pan-American Highway is an Outline, Burma Road is Usable, Dalton Highway is a Guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:24, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

And Historic Churches of Buffalo's East Side is a Star itinerary article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:25, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Also how do I centre the image? TravelAroundOz (talk) 23:38, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Which image? In general, you should keep images other than the pagebanner on the left right side by default (have a look at Wikivoyage:Image policy), but the way to do it is [[File:(Filename).jpg|thumb|center|(Caption)]]. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:49, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

The page banner TravelAroundOz (talk) 23:54, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

It looks alright to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:06, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

In general, images should be on the right side, and banners should have the dimensions 7:1. I will fix the page banner. Ground Zero (talk) 03:00, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I mistyped. The default is on the right side, not the left side (it's on the other left, so to speak...). Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:47, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

@Ground Zero: Can you do that for Golden Highway as well? TravelAroundOz (talk) 10:22, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Thank you for getting me started on WikiVoyage TravelAroundOz (talk) 23:57, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Sure thing. Now about those stubs... :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:22, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, it's me on Day 2 here and I'm lovin it ;) TravelAroundOz (talk) 06:25, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Good. Keep it up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:28, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks mate! TravelAroundOz (talk) 07:27, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Appreciate your effort.. Kamaini.wane (talk) 05:32, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate yours. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:21, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Wow UniverseExplorer0 (talk) 06:45, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	very good work UniverseExplorer0 (talk) 06:47, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. You can just post regular messages, though. Let me know if you ever want help with anything.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:11, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

You're racking up these awards, popular man! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:14, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Hah! :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:23, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

very rusty (saya lupa semua, hampir...)

The links that I made to english wikipedia in the ashmore and cartier article - is that kosher?

good to see you are still around after all this time... JarrahTree (talk) 05:01, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Good to see you as well! How are you? We should be linking War zone safety#Land mines and unexploded ordnance, instead, which also links from unexploded ordnance. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:07, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

very interesting some stuff - will send off wiki - as for most - good thanks, thanks for your edits... JarrahTree (talk) 05:24, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

also it is very very dubious that any part of the interior of australia is impossible to get there, I know of 4WD drivers whom such a definition is good reason for them to go there... JarrahTree (talk) 05:39, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Very well true. In bordertown, (yes it exists), there is basically nothing for 300kms north of it. TravelAroundOz (talk) 12:07, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

I can imagine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:46, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Brunei

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	Thank you for getting me started on WikiVoyage Azmi1995 (talk) 16:21, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm currently still on sporadic editors before creating valuable & notable pages on here. Sadly, Brunei is quite neglected rather than their three Malay counterparts i.e. Indonesia, Malaysia, and Singapore. I'm updating this and making sure that it will be more informative on several pages

Sama-sama. Let me know if you ever need any help, although I couldn't help you with content for Brunei. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:49, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Edit on Sderot

I did in fact read through Welcome, Wikipedians for guidance before making my edit, but managed to miss the fact that it's a specific intention for Wikivoyage pages to be unreferenced—perhaps the double-negative phrasing that it's a non-goal to not document everything and not reference information could be made clearer? This is rare for a Wikimedia project, and is maybe not going to stand out on a first read-through in that amount of material; for example, on English Wiktionary references are very infrequent but not actually prohibited as it appears they are here.

I also specifically looked for article layout advice related to references, but for example there was nothing in Wikivoyage:Article skeleton templates.

As to your edit summary question about why it would be important to know that Sderot evidently has a reputation as a dangerous place to be at midnight, I'd have thought the importance of this for a traveler is evident. Framing it in the historical context seemed to me like the sort of thing a travel guide would do, but there are many different kinds of travel guides, and of course I defer to your judgment if it's not the sort of thing that belongs on a Wikivoyage page about an Israeli town next to the warning about rocket attacks. --Struthious Bandersnatch (talk) 01:47, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

I'll have a look at Wikivoyage:Goals and non-goals' phrasing. I agree that Sderot being dangerous at midnight is relevant to travelers. It would be relevant to the "Stay safe" section. I suppose if that's been true continuously for over 100 years, it could be OK to reinsert that quote, and you can say "As So-And-So said in Such-And-Such Book..." Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:18, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Does Wikivoyage:Goals and non-goals look any clearer to you now that I've made these edis? Is there anything else that could be stated more clearly? Feel free to edit it, or let me know what seems potentially ambiguous. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:25, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

That does seem like better wording, but I think that if someone familiar with Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects goes to try to figure out whether to add a reference section to a page, they're unlikely to make it that far—I probably spent a good deal more time reading and looking for guidance first than on simply entering the citation information, which I was able to cut and paste. I wonder if the Mediawiki software could be configured to display a warning or something if ref code is used in mainspace, or simply to disable the referencing features?

I don't believe the professor was describing Sderot in historical terms when he used it as a figure of speech to illustrate the rough-and-ready character of the Hashomer militiamen—he was speaking English, to an American documentary crew, and wasn't using other early-twenthieth-century figures of speech. But it's up to you whether you think it should be included in the Wikivoyage page; he could have been joking or exaggerating or something like that too, which is why I tried to write out literally who said it and the context, but still “plunge forward”. --Struthious Bandersnatch (talk) 22:44, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

The relevance to today wasn't clear. You could spell it out in your own words. To your other point: I've previously suggested making certain operations we don't want impossible, but there have been no takers, and I don't know the first thing about how to program in Mediawiki, so I won't be able to do it. Wikis are ultimately only as good as the volunteer users make them. That said, I'll see whether I could propose this change again, and perhaps someone will want to tackle it now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:49, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

We could make the abuse filters warn about (not disallow, which I think would be overkill) use of the ref tag (and anything that looks like one): "<ref". Whether a suitable worded warning would discourage people from saving the rest of their edit or editing at all in the future, I don't know. –LPfi (talk) 08:49, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Licensing information for photos from Commons

Hi Ikan Kekek. I'd like to ask you to include the licensing information with uploading photos from Commons that are going to be deleted there due to lack of FOP. It seems we need to do this to ensure compliance with our own Exemption Doctrine Policy, which says "Photographs of copyrighted artwork and architecture must be otherwise free; contributors may not upload images taken from non-free sources just because they depict copyrighted works that are allowed under this policy." It's also helpful for potential reusers of the photos, who may live in countries like the US that do have freedom of panorama, even if the country where the photograph was taken doesn't. (And it's polite to credit the creator of a photograph.)

For comparison, see also w:Template:FoP-USonly. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:34, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Apparently we have a designated template for this, which I just found a moment ago: Template:Non-free image. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:38, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

When the photos have licenses on them, I select the relevant license. When they don't, the instructions on the upload page said that a default license would be supplied. Are you saying that's not true? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:33, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

When I came across File:Jalylkhayat2016.jpg a few hours ago, it looked like this, missing the license. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:05, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

So there's something wrong with the uploading instructions. That's really unfortunate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:30, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Did you go via the "upload file" link in the left margin and the "upload it locally to this wiki" link that resulted? Do you mean the instructions on the upload form (MediaWiki:Uploadtext)? Or did you use some other tool?

I suppose we should have some automatic function for transferring files from Commons – I think such a function exists, and perhaps just has to be activated (or just linked?).

Selecting a default licence is OK when you are licencing your own photos, but when it is about a work of somebody else, one has to use a a licence chosen by the author (or copyright owner).

–LPfi (talk) 06:56, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I used the "upload file" link as you described. Many files on Commons don't have a specific type of user-chosen Creative Commons license, so they should be considered to have the default Commons license. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:59, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Many files? Could you give an example? I cannot remember having seen any, so I suppose there is something you say that I interpret wrongly. –LPfi (talk) 08:51, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Some of them have licenses not on the drop-down list, such as public domain. Here's an example. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:15, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Another. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:16, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure what else I thought was at issue, but I'll let you know if I see something. So far, what I found is not a lack of clarity, just a lack of equivalent licenses to input here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:20, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Ah! Yes, there are many licences and PD reasons not in the dropdown. But you cannot just exchange one licence for another, except in the rare cases where the specific licence explicitly allows that. For the PD cases, one could simply state "PD" instead of citing the specific reason, but losing information is seldom good – what do you do when somebody questions the PD status? I think the solution is either to import all the licence and PD templates from Commons (probably a mess), or to just link the Commons template from a local "other" template, one for licences and one for PD reasons. There might be a clean way to do it, but I am not trying to find one right now. –LPfi (talk) 09:59, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

What I've been doing is copying the remarks from the photographer that the photo is in the public domain but supplying some CC license that's lesser because I don't have the option to assign a public domain license, from what I've seen. I'm going to bow out of doing anything more complicated. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:57, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	with all respect for other work you have done referring your listing for "Croatia" yacht charter companies : I was trying to add commercial listing since this page already is doing so - if we are not allowed nobody should be - please delete all charter company listing and links Maritim-alpha (talk) 11:23, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Ping!

Hi mate. I tried to ping you at Talk:Croatia#Yacht_charter_listings, but I messed up and it probably didn't work. Anyway, ping! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:26, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, it didn't work. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:15, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Reply to the question

"Is it a good or bad thing that the prices and locations might be changed? In other words, do these apps have up-to-date information or not? The sentence doesn't make that clear. 04:31, 20 February 2021 (UTC) "

Emm, to say that. Prices, like the tickets' prices of these locations, and open times of the locations are unstable. So before the visitors go to a place, they'd better check some infos on local websites, that will save their time. In China, the apps are normally used to check for tickets information and all infos are up-to-date, do you need any materials to prove that? I'm a newbie to wikipedia and I'm not a native speaker, so if you would like to help me to improve the page, I'm very appreciated for you to do so. Thanks again for pointing out the mistake for me. PencilCore (talk) 04:49, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

OK, I understand. So the additional information that needs to be added is that these apps are often more up to date than other sources. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:27, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

IP edits at a user page

Often IP edits at user pages are vandalism, sometimes they are mistaken, but they also happen because the user in question just wasn't logged in (and did perhaps not realise it). So I would mostly leave them alone, unless they might be harmful. You might of course have had a reason for your remark in the specific case – or now that I look at it, the edit summary is off, but perhaps written before the other change, I've done such things. –LPfi (talk) 12:01, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

In no way do I think that IP user is the same user whose sandbox it is, just not logged-in, but if they are, they can say that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:14, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

You may well be right, I didn't check the user's edit pattern. I just know such things sometimes happen, and that it is good to keep that in mind when commenting. Never mind. –LPfi (talk) 14:13, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

That was the IP user's only edit on Wikivoyage, at least under that IP address. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:24, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

So would probably an edit from my IP seem to be, if I were logged out while editing. –LPfi (talk) 14:34, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

I understand. But would it be really bad if the IP user explained that? I usually automatically revert IP edits to other people's user pages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:40, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

I suppose that is OK. The user can easily revert to their version (unless a newbie who doesn't know about page history). But IP addresses are sometimes sensitive (disclosing one's location, sometimes one's identity), so I wouldn't make a fuzz about it, and especially not if a user seems not to want to comment on such an edit. –LPfi (talk) 15:56, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Is a single user talk page post making a fuss? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:08, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Alt names

Still getting the hang of Wikivoyage, so not sure if I can expect you to be watchlisting the page and seeing edit histories, or if WV has a different culture in that respect to enwiki. I restored the alt name, because it's on the physical building (visible on Google Maps). If this is repeating an edit summary you already saw, all apologies. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 20:59, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks for the explanation, and sorry for the inconvenience. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:03, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

RE: Barncompass

Thank you for your kind words. The work on Wikivoyage is never-ending! Just have to keep at it. Gizza ^(roam) 01:47, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Gomes000 (the Estremadura dude)

In the discussion at Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion#Estremadura, I noted that this was a matter of cross-project disruption, and Gomes000 was edit-warring Estremadura articles on both Wikipedia and Wikivoyage. (I only know about the English versions -- possibly the Portuguese sister projects might have information of their own?) He's since been indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia per the conversation here, which includes some other possibly pertinent information (about e.g. his English fluency/communication skills). Is this something that should go to user ban nominations? Vaticidalprophet (talk) 23:58, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

You could propose a user ban, sure. I think we could handle him with gradually increasing blocks if need be, but go ahead and make the nomination if you want to. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:30, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

New York City

In regard to your revert on the New York City article, the state has added an travel exception where domestic travelers fully vaccinated against COVID-19 in the last 90 days no longer have to quarantine. I added this information to the COVID box in the New York (state) article. I was going along the lines of "less is more" since the city follows the state guidance, unless there is a better way of phrasing it? JRHorse (talk) 14:00, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Or rather, less is best? JRHorse (talk) 14:03, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

My opinion is that so many readers are likely to bypass the article for New York State to read the New York City article that it's best to just copy all the relevant information from the New York State article. If you feel strongly about this, though, please start a thread in Talk:New York City, and we can try to come to a consensus about this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:10, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

I'll copy the relevant information as was done before. JRHorse (talk) 14:53, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Great, thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:32, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Population figures

The reader can infer that the number here refers to people, but it is not obvious. "Legazpi, is a city of almost 200,000 (2015)". To me there is something missing. Ground Zero (talk) 11:50, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Excuse me for butting in, but it is obvious, especially now I've moved "is" to the correct part of the sentence. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:25, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

I think it's super-obvious. What else would it be, 200,000 pencils? 200,000 stores? 200,000 rats? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:39, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Spambots

Spambots use old revision IDs across projects - so continuing to leave the revision undeleted will allow them to continue to propagate their spam. So the options really become either revdel this revision or delete the page entirely. Jon Kolbert (talk) 17:51, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by using them and would welcome further explanation so I can understand going forward, but I also suggest you contact the admin who put up the don't tout template on that page. He's the one you should discuss this with, primarily, because I think the rest of us are unlikely to second-guess his choice. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

The link I just used above, it shows live spam, correct? The bots will use this link on other sites, effectively making Wikimedia projects a host for their junk. That's why it gets deleted - so we aren't hosting spam. I have no clue why admins are leaving template messages to robots. These aren't users, they're scripts. Please delete this page or at least revdel the spam revision. Jon Kolbert (talk) 18:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

If I had been the one who first read the spam, I would have deleted it and blocked the account indefinitely without a talk page message, but please contact User:Ibaman. This isn't a one-off issue, so share your remarks with him. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:52, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

@Ibaman: seems to have ignored your message about this thread? Jon Kolbert (talk) 17:12, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

• I don't understand the matter of this discussion. Spam must be deleted, always. Ibaman (talk) 18:04, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Jon Kolbert is arguing that leaving a revision by a spambot merely blanked and not actually deleting the page aids in the propagation of spam, and also that it's pointless to post a message on a spambot's talk page, but we should merely delete the page and block the spambot account indefinitely. If you wanted to chart a middle path, you could delete the page (not blank it) and then recreate the page in order to post a message. I sometimes do that if I have the slightest doubt that the account is a spambot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:16, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Vasudha1819

FYI, Vasudha1819 (talk · contribs) is an LTA sockpuppet, see Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Nsmutte. Best, DanCherek (talk) 21:15, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm not surprised. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:35, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Dorohoi

There was no copyright violation. You deleted the page with no real reason.--MSClaudiu (talk) 12:19, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Copyright violation from Wikipedia. Please read Wikivoyage:Copyleft. You are allowed to copy from Wikipedia, but it's rarely advisable to copy wholesale from there, in part because of the difference in goals and style between the sites, and in any case, you must credit your source in your edit summaries or the talk page of the article (summaries you type in the "Summary" box below your edit screen). It's better to summarize and use some paraphrasing as appropriate than to quote in full. Please restart the article with these things in mind, thank you, and let me know if you have any questions.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:02, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

I now see that I gave you this information on August 10, 2020. You didn't need to make me search for the deletion and do a web search for the text again. Just please pay attention when you get specific information from knowledgeable users. Thanks, and next time, instead of pretending you're clueless, ask only real questions about things that weren't already explained to you months ago. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:05, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	See the full message at User talk:LivelyRatification SHB2000 (talk) 12:04, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Facegroup group in Malaysia

I think you were looking for a wiki-contact in Malaysia? I don't know if you are aware of this fb group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ms.wiki? I found the link on meta:Talk:Wikimedia Malaysia. Cheers, Ottawahitech (talk) 23:37, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

I was looking for someone who could answer a specific question relating to the legalities of using a photo of the logo of a division of Sarawak. Thanks for tracking that down for me.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:35, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

normally I would never post about topic this on an open talk page - I think I heard about a very weird topic about large amount of commons items being removed by a very weird interpretation about what can be utilised without venturing into legal issues. If that sounds obtuse, I might look to see if there are other possible links within the scope of wikimedia projects... please delete this if you know better than I do - so as not to create issues or problems for anyone here. JarrahTree (talk) 12:34, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

I really don't know better. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:41, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

KevRobbAU's editing style for local streets

Hi Ikan Kekek, hope your doing well,

Re. KevRobbAU's edits on local streets (use Manilla (NSW) for examples sake), he seems to be putting route numbers like alternate street names. Route numbers are only used for major highways/motorways with the exception of Victoria.

Anyway, I'm trying to fix his format a little bit by changing (example only) Manilla Street/B95 to Manilla Street (B95). Anyway, to my main point, local street names aren't to have route numbers e.g.

• Manilla Street (B95) is wrong even though it is technically right as this will just confuse people.
• Fossickers Way (B95) is correct as the signs with route numbers don't use local street names.

So this leaves me with two questions,

1. How do I put it, the local street name or the major highway with KevRobbAU agreeing.

2. How am I going to tell him without being abused (as what he did to you?, I'm afraid that he may find a lame excuse especially he has more rights on en.wv than I do)

Thanks for your time and stay safe.

SHB2000 (talk) 10:22, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Edit as you see fit, but if you think you'll get pushback, try discussing things on a talk page such as the one for the Manilla article. If he behaves abusively, you can contact an admin, but I don't want to be the one to take action, or you could post to Wikivoyage:User ban nominations or its talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:45, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Will start but I'll be a lot slower due to a finger injury. :( SHB2000 (talk) 06:38, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Very sorry about that. I hope you heal well! Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:09, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, thankfully it's the 4th finger so I wouldn't affect me much, regardless, I'm no longer going to revert vandalism on en.wiki for a while. SHB2000 (talk) 09:41, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: Regardless, it's okay as KevRobbAU has now retired. SHB2000 (talk) 10:40, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Many users claim to retire and then come back. I'm totally fine with his contributing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:56, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

87.74.197.32

FWIW, I already thought it was ArticCynda before seeing that comment you briefly linked to from the User Ban page. That doesn't mean it is him, of course, but who else signs posts as "AC"? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:12, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, hard to imagine who else it would be. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:32, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

No other person with that username. SHB2000 (talk) 20:12, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

It could be a troll who wishes to defame AC. IP checkers (?), who can see the request headers etc., could verify. –LPfi (talk) 06:10, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Doubtful. I don't know who could check an IP. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:02, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Stewards, I suppose, as we don't have any local checkusers (that's their name). –LPfi (talk) 08:00, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

They seem to be from the same ISP and the same region (as my requests used the same path until I hit a firewall). I suppose that is evidence enough, unless we have edits from others on the same IP blocks. Do we have other problem users from Britain? –LPfi (talk) 08:27, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

And ones who would have made those edits? No. Sorry for doubting at first sight. –LPfi (talk) 08:30, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

It's OK. The concept of someone "defaming" this guy when this is his standard modus operandi was quite tenuous, but I understand why you want to be careful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:42, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

@LPfi:, it's always a good idea to check their (UK IP's) edits. SHB2000 (talk) 01:21, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

User:AridCeption would. SHB2000 (talk) 05:55, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

New articles of AnglaisEP's students

Hi there,

Is it okay if I reword most of those articles. They sometimes make no sense and remembering that the traveller comes first, I'm so tempted to fix it up. This includes plenty of grammatical errors as well as sentences that are hard to read. But I also don't want to ruin the student's projects but also want to make life easier for the traveller. What shall I do?

Additionally, User:Thomascruss keeps adding full stops in the wrong place like this .Which he continues after I've made ≈30 corrections and their edit summaries make no sense as well. User:AnglaisEP has also said that he isn't one of their students.

Thanks, SHB2000 (talk) 03:46, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

This is a Wiki. We should edit out mistakes. If User:AnglaisEP wants us not to help with copy editing and formatting, they need to say so and tell us how long to wait before editing the articles in question, but realistically, it's not possible to keep people from editing articles on a Wiki that are in articlespace. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:49, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, this takes my guilt away. But as always, the traveller comes first. SHB2000 (talk) 03:51, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Additionally, can you understand what this means, especially the ones in italics?

"There is also "La Céramique" which a old creation for publics, it's open from 10H to 12H and 14H to 18H and the people buy 3€ for visiting. "Les Ruches du Tigou" can see but also visiting for educated on story of bees. It's a very good activity to do in family!"

Yeah. There's a €3 admission charge and you can learn about bees. I don't know how that's connected with ceramics, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:59, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

When I first read it, it sounded like you buy money. SHB2000 (talk) 04:02, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

We have an Indonesian editor sometimes, whose English is much harder to understand than that, even for people who used to be fluent in Malay and know some Indonesian, like me. But just do what you can. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:06, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Of course, you can edit the articles. It is also what I wanted to show to my students. Teachers in France usually tell their students that they should not use wikis because information is not reliable. I wanted them to realize that yes, everyone can contribute but that everything is checked and that when used correctly Wikis can be great tools! So, it is great if people want to edit the articles. AnglaisEP (talk) 08:42, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, I agree, with AnglaisEP, especially Wikipedia. Most of the time, unsourced things and vandalism on en.wiki gets reverted by RCP (myself included). I still don't understand why the stereotype is still going on. And Ikan Kekek, interesting, I didn't realise you were from Malaysia, somewhere where I've been planning to go last July. SHB2000 (talk) 08:51, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Additionally, when I was studying French, my french teacher never used fr.wikipedia as they have the "wikis are bad" mindset. The only reason why I don't edit is because of what happened to User:KevRobbAU. SHB2000 (talk) 08:54, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm not from Malaysia. Have a look at my user page. By the way, I taught college courses for years, and what I told my students was that I support the Wikipedia project, which is really the Medieval notion of collective authorship, complete with marginalia (the talk pages), in a computer-age version. However, I insisted that my students identify clearly what content they quoted, paraphrased or summarized from which Wikipedia article and when they consulted it, and I warned them that if the information was wrong, they wouldn't get a break because they cited it, so if they didn't want to just roll the dice, they should at least look at the sources cited in the relevant Wikipedia articles so that they could get the original context - or better yet, they should cross check the information in an independent source that's not a mere mirror site. I recommended that for every secondary source - cross check your source. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:11, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Idiot me skipped the first few words. Similar when I read User:DaGizza's userpage. SHB2000 (talk) 10:05, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Can you please block User:93.107.24.138

See [53] and [54] SHB2000 (talk) 04:05, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Already done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:07, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Keep in mind that we practice a policy of denying recognition to vandals. Please don't post warnings to the user talk pages of their latest sockpuppets. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:09, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Ah yes, I'm too used to using RedWarn now on en.wiki. SHB2000 (talk) 04:57, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Personal attack.

Hey Ikan Kekek, got sent this by email SHB2000 (talk) 04:12, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

[removed]

Not a Wikivoyage user, so I don't know what I could do about it. You might want to change your email settings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:17, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

It's by User:Fordaona which is a wikivoyage user (according to email). Just asking if you can block the user with emails banned. SHB2000 (talk) 04:18, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

A user with no contributions and no deleted contributions. To my surprise, I was able to block them, anyway, though. I'm sorry you've gotten caught up in this unpleasantness. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:20, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

I feel extra sorry for you with the two IP's today. My only experiences were this and User:ThePikerWorm SHB2000 (talk) 04:22, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Some people are just angry and get their jollies lashing out at people. At least as long as it's strictly online, at least no-one is physically hurt, but it goes with the territory. If you're old enough to remember Usenet, a lot of the newsgroups were cesspools of spam and flaming. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:30, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

This is apparently User:Fordaona according to this link that was in the email. SHB2000 (talk) 04:32, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Additionally, a vandalism only account has returned. See here SHB2000 (talk) 04:33, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Antandrus is not a vandal. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:39, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Additionally, on wikipediasucks.co, here's what I found:

[quote removed]

Link [Link removed]

These guys are clearly up to no good. SHB2000 (talk) 04:45, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

I greatly appreciate your help, but it's really best not to copy this kind of stuff here. Again: Deny recognition. And do keep in mind, I have no interest in going looking for vandals around the web, only on improving this guide. And I think I'll take my nightly walk now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:09, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Anyway, stay safe. SHB2000 (talk) 05:10, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, it's good to keep in mind that there are real-world dangers, but it's safer for me to walk a couple of miles or more than to stay home. Take care and thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:15, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Anyway, I'll be gone for my coffee break. SHB2000 (talk) 05:33, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Let me know when I can delete the screenshot of the attack on you. I'd rather not enshrine that in the memory of this site, since what could be done about it has been done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Anytime, it's why I put the speedy deletion tag. SHB2000 (talk) 08:07, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

An award for you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	For immediately taking action on these vandalism/harassment only accounts quickly. SHB2000 (talk) 04:53, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Joke articles/Atlantis

I reverted your edit to Wikivoyage:Joke articles/Atlantis, because the listing "Hôtel du Grand Tout" does not seem appropriate. -- AnotherEditor144 (talk) 10:14, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

What does the message at the top of joke articles say? I'm not going to waste time on this, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:26, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

neo-Nazis

Hi Ikan Kekek/archive: No I was not suggesting that wikivoyage should be encouraging people with neo-Nazi attitudes. And no, I do not think it would be a good way to make Wikivoyage, or any other website, a friendly site for the majority of the world's population. Not sure what made you think that? Ottawahitech (talk) 02:31, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Because the guy we're talking about has such attitudes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:53, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Need Help

Hi Ikan Kekek, I realized there some misinformations and under information about Nigeria, before I do intend to bridging the gap and recruiting more users, I will need you to direct me to a page where the fundamentals or basics about Wikivoyage are explained. You can also refer me to a video on commons or Youtube. Thanks,

Haylad (talk) 20:50, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Sure thing. You can start by looking at Welcome, newcomers, Welcome, Wikipedians if you're familiar with Wikipedia, and Wikivoyage:Manual of style. Please let me know if you have any questions about anything, and thanks again for being here! Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:55, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

New MediaWiki logo

Hi, MediaWiki has a new logo (see here). Can you please update Template:WikivoyageSister to use File:MediaWiki-2020-icon.svg instead of File:MediaWiki-logo.svg. Thanks --Nintendofan885 (talk) 10:25, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

April fool? Regardless, no, I wouldn't know how to update it. You might post to the Travellers' pub, but I'd be suspicious of anything today. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:56, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Ok. The phabricator task is T268230 --Nintendofan885 (talk) 08:51, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Contentious redirects?

What's the preference for dealing with redirects for disputed places that take a side in the debate? Soumya just made three redirects to Taiwan (Taiwan, China, Taiwan Province, and Taiwan Province, China) that look more-heat-than-light to me -- they don't seem that useful for navigation (I can't picture a situation where you'd rather have those in articles than just Taiwan, and if you're using the search box you'll be directed to Taiwan first) and only serve to claim a position as to Taiwan's geopolitical status. Are these better VfDed, speedied, left alone? Am I missing something? Vaticidalprophet (talk) 22:25, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

I've summarily deleted some obviously useless redirects. I think these should be nominated for deletion. I agree that he creates some unnecessary redirects. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:37, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

PP Tibooburra

Hi there, can you please protect Tibooburra. It seems to be a target for the Telstra guy (Brendan John Williams) as I see it has been deleted before. Thanks and have a good easter. SHB2000 (talk) 07:45, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

You too, but please don't worry about anyone deleting the article this time. We know you don't create valueless articles with plagiarized text. I'll look forward to seeing how you develop the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:49, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm going there this summer so it'll be a bit more well written then some of my other articles. SHB2000 (talk) 07:54, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Great! In the meantime, though, there's already some information. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:54, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

With the help of unreliable google maps (at least what happened to me in Arizona). :) SHB2000 (talk) 06:40, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, one does have to be careful. Google sometimes plots a route for you to drive off a cliff. Hasn't happened to me, but such has been reported. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:59, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

This one in Arizona took me to a place 4 hours away from the actual location. Used waze the next day. Funnily enough, someone sent this to me. I really don't know how this happens. SHB2000 (talk) 07:06, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

What's wrong with the route at the link? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:36, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

The unnecessary spur section. SHB2000 (talk) 08:08, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

May I remove a place thats heavily vandalised

Hi_there,

Just_asking_whether_I_may_remove_Henry_Head_Lighthouse_in_La_Perouse.Google_reviews_are_out_of_date_as_well_as_I_went_there_today. Wouldn't_recommend_it_as_well_as_it_is_poorly_maintained_as_it_sort_of_sparks_some_controversy.But_if_i_remove_it,it'll_break_the_be_fair_policy. So,should_I_remove_it_which_is_better_for_the_traveller_or_do_I_be_fair?

Also_ sorry_ for_ the_ poor_ formatting, my_ space_bar_ is_ jammed. Anyway_I'll_be_gone_out_til_Friday_so_you_or_User:DaGizza_may_as_well_change_it_considering you_ both_ have_ better_ 'bout_ WVpolicies_ than_ I do.

Thanks, SHB2000 (talk) 10:57, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

It's up to you. If you feel like the vandalism is so bad that no-one would want to go there, remove it. Otherwise, you could simply mention it in the listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:22, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

I mean, some can't stand graffiti like me but others usually don't mind. SHB2000 (talk) 20:04, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

So maybe just mention that there's a lot of ugly graffiti there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:22, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: - Here's an image that I found. SHB2000 (talk) 11:55, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000: I would recommend merging La Perouse with Sydney/Eastern Suburbs and then redirecting it. It is rare for individual suburbs to get their own page when there aren't enough listings to sustain it. Only the very famous suburbs like Bondi are standalone. Only when the Eastern Suburbs article is very large should we consider splitting it off but it's not at that stage yet. Gizza ^(roam) 00:56, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Well La Perouse is where both explorers Captain Cook and Laperouse so called "Claimed" that they discovered Australia. SHB2000 (talk) 11:57, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Is that an argument against merging? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:14, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes SHB2000 (talk) 21:47, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Why couldn't that be covered in a merged article? I don't know much of anything about the Sydney area, but in principle, I think the key points are really how many listings there are in each article and whether the number in a merged article would be excessive. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:16, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Because I want to also include bits of it on the other side of Botany Bay, which isn't on the eastern suburbs. SHB2000 (talk) 22:31, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I see. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:50, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

A potential solution to this would be to create a sub-article of Voyages of James Cook, specifically on Cook's exploration of Australia or even just Sydney/Botany Bay. For our destinations, we can only divide the world (whether it's region, city or districts) in one way at a time. But travel topics are more flexible and don't follow the breadcrumb path. Gizza ^(roam) 23:52, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Hilton

Hey. I've tracked the probable origin of these edits down to a marketing company based in Varna. Since they seem to be ignoring or missing all talk page comms, I've emailed them a kind of explainer / warning. Although we certainly could blacklist Hilton, it would be quite a lot of work to remove all of their listings on WV, so it would be far preferable to avoid that if possible.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:48, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Impressive work! Thanks! Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:37, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Changes regarding Kolkata

   Hello Ikan, thanks for the message. I have been editing Wikipedia for some time now. I was very much shocked at the wrong information given in Wikivoyage regarding Kolkata city. I am doing all the corrections based on the information given in Wikipedia and as far as my knowledge. I am a native of Kolkata and thus know the place quite well. I mailed Wikimedia Foundation regarding the required correction in Wikivoyage Kolkata article, and one of the volunteers Mr Gurwinder Singh was kind enough to inform me that I can edit Wikivoyage giving proper references.

All I am doing is editing Wikivoyage Kolkata article based on Wikipedia data and my local knowledge as a native. I would request you not to revert my changes as I am sure it will be trusted by one and all who know Kolkata.

Still I will inform about my changes in Kolkata talk page of Wikivoyage according to your suggestion.

Thanks.

Anirban Kolkata Anirban Kolkata (talk) 19:52, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I won't rush to revert anything, but it is the normal practice to revert unilateral redistricting and wait for the results of a discussion, so don't be surprised if someone else reverts for now. Also, please reply to my questions on the thread you started on Talk:Kolkata. I'm glad you're here; just work with us, and thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:08, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Last Edit Date

Why did the 'Last Edit Date' section inside templates change? It used to say "subst:#time:Y-m-d", but now it just has the date. Why do I have to change it every time now? 82.3.185.12 14:27, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

This is news to me. I hadn't heard anything about a change to the template. You might want to bring this up in the Travellers' pub. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:01, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I did. 82.3.185.12 16:02, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek, 82.3.185.12: See User_talk:SHB2000#Tech_News:_2021-14 for the update. SHB2000 (talk) 22:57, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I see. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:22, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

What does "the valley of the r8vervVère." mean?

Hi there, sorry to bother you again, but what does "the valley of the r8vervVère." mean in Castelnau-de-Montmiral, when I do a google search, it fails to show good results. User:AnglaisEP has ditched their account so I'm going to have to ask you. SHB2000 (talk) 06:00, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

River w:Vère. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:32, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Very great english by whoever added that:) SHB2000 (talk) 06:57, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Simple typos, no? Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:34, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

That was me being sloppy. In my defence, I added a lot of good material to the article. Thanks for fixing my mistake. Ground Zero (talk) 16:53, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I thought that was one of User:AnglaisEP's students. That was also me being sloppy for not checking the page history. SHB2000 (talk) 23:22, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Out of curiosity...

Out of curiosity, on the deletion log, it said I deleted Oxley Highway to make room for a redirect. Does this happen when I just move a page or is it because I'm a template editor (It didn't work when I did it for Vaucluse as that was before I became a template editor). I thought only admins could delete pages. Do you know how this works.

Thanks, SHB2000 (talk) 06:10, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Those who are allowed to move pages are also allowed to delete redirects to allow the move (as part of it), given that the redirect points to the article moved there and has no history except its creation. No special privileges needed. –LPfi (talk) 10:18, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I needed to do the same for Vaucluse but I couldn't do it. Similar thing but I couldn't. Surprisingly I did it for Oxley Highway. Don't know why. SHB2000 (talk) 10:29, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't think what user:LPfi wrote is correct; you need sysop privileges to delete a page, including redirects.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:38, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

No, if you move something over a redirect, the deletion occurs automagically. Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:55, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Explains how I deleted Oxley Highway? But it didn't let me delete Vaucluse, which had the same content, edits and like a normal redirect. SHB2000 (talk) 10:57, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: Oh, okay. I've clearly been an admin too long to remember what it was like before... what have I become?---ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:15, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Not too sure about this but I think I have the second highest amount of edits as an active non-admin. (After KevRobbAU/KevRobbSCO – but KevRobbSCO is a new account (after litter bin dispute) so does it count? ) (There'll be some very old editors who have given their adminship away by now and have more or just left) SHB2000 (talk) 11:18, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Vaucluse had history:

• 12:44, 9 April 2021: SHB2000 moved page Vaucluse to Vaucluse (disambiguation)) Tag: New redirect
• 12:44, 9 April 2021: SHB2000 (talk | contribs | block) 31 bytes (Changed redirect target from Vaucluse (disambiguation) to Vaucluse (France)) Tag: Redirect target changed

Then TT moved Vaucluse (France) to Vaucluse, which was a privileged operation.

Otherwise: SomeVandal moves Vauclause to Nowhere, changes the redirect target of Vauclause to SomeOtherCity, and moves SomeOtherCity to Vauclause. Somebody moves back SomeOtherCity. Vauclause now redirects to SomeOtherCity and the original Vauclause is lost as Nowhere until somebody searches in the logs.

–LPfi (talk) 12:36, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Makes so much sense now. This text ((talk | contribs | block)) also gives me a little look at what an admins (talk, cont. etc.) would look like. SHB2000 (talk) 12:38, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

:-) LPfi (talk) 14:08, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

:) SHB2000 (talk)

LPfi, is there a way to tell if I've got the highest amount of edits as an active non-admin? (After KevRobbAU who's now KevRobbSCO) SHB2000 (talk) 01:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I haven't been using the MediaWiki API, but I remember seeing statistics about users with the most edits on a wikipedia. I suppose you need to check activity and adminship yourself, but they were perhaps included in a separate column of the table. No idea where it was. Meta? Toolforge? Wikimedia labs? Perhaps a web search on wikipedia (contribution) statistics or somesuch would turn it up. –LPfi (talk) 09:15, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Listing in Spanish Wikivoyage

This is only an information to you and not an instruction to act. Now DerFussi and me established the Marker and Listing templates at the Spanish Wikivoyage as they are used at the German Wikivoyage. While the implementation I added some features which are needed at the Spanish Wikivoyage. The community was helpful translating all the messages and labels. I prepared also some installation instructions considering our experiences at its installation process.

I will give some comments:

• The templates have maximum Wikidata support. This made it difficult to implement it because of the huge computing time for the retrieval of Wikidata data. I found ways to call only one Q dataset per template in most cases (not ten to thirty). So it takes about the same time as before. We tested it with Vienna and Halle (Saale). In the article of Vienna 268 Listing and 55 Marker templates are used. 216 of them get data from Wikidata. But the main cause for the computing time is the <maplink> call which takes about 40 %. I will talk with the Mediawiki programmers to find ways to reduce it.
• The wikipedia template parameter is no longer used. Please remove it or substitute it by wikidata. But there is some support for backward compatibility.
• The type template parameter differs from the original one. The former ones like see, do, etc. are no real types. They summarize institutions of the same article section but they cannot distinguish between different types within a section. We deprecated them because they are senseless for an automatized transfer to Wikidata. The new vCard/listing uses now two terms: type is now a more specified type like restaurant, cafe, church, dam, etc. but it can have values like see, do, etc. for convenience reasons, too. All types belong to a group which have the meaning of the old types like see, do, etc. You can use the group parameter to override the group affiliation which is automatically estimated. The seldomly used group parameter of the old listing templates has to be renamed to map-group.
• You need some time to translate the strings for internationalization. Maybe it takes about one week. I will make some translations into English within the next weeks to give better support to non-German communities.
• You will be surprised how many errors were made in the past. From our experience, about ten percent of all articles are erroneous. Most errors occur with names, urls, phone numbers, email addresses or wrongly written parameter names. The correction have to be mainly done manually and will take maybe several weeks.

Thanks for your interest. --RolandUnger (talk) 06:16, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm not so technically knowledgeable but would surely be happy to help with some tasks that will be needed when the changes to the templates are made. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:27, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Bus routes

Hi, with the Greyhound suspension still ongoing, and serious doubts as to whether they'll return, I'm thinking of going on a cleanup mission and removing Greyhound references. Articles will also be updated if/when the service returns. To save you the headache, I've registered User:162 etc. if you'd like to assign privileges. Thanks! 162.208.168.92 21:13, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

OK, sure, and by all means, go ahead. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:37, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Definitely DarrenIconic388 is the telstra guy?

Just alerting you to this. SHB2000 (talk) 03:28, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

No reason to alert me. His M.O. is to use a sock for one, maybe two edits and then register another sock. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:50, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

But does BJW, tend to have many usernames staring with Darren? SHB2000 (talk) 04:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Dunno. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:38, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

A barncompass for you!

	The Sysop's Barncompass
	For being the most active sysop here on Wikivoyage that I know of and as well as giving me a little more knowledge about the US. Certainly wished we had the interstate system in Australia, or at least pave all national highways. Take care and enjoy your week, --SHB2000 (talk) 07:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

You too! There's a big downside of superhighways, though: They helped nearly kill long-distance passenger rail, which is much less polluting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:24, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I like the incentive in the US to reduce carbon emissions by having an express lanes on freeways for hybrid or electric vehicles. Though I don't think I'll ever get an electric vehicle unless I move to Victoria. But I don't understand why the SA govt chooses not to pave these national highways, even though it's a major freight route. SHB2000 (talk) 07:34, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Do you know that Eisenhower had the interstates built to be able to move nuclear weapons around more quickly? It was a huge expenditure for national security reasons. The promotion of civilian vehicular traffic was a side effect. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:38, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Especially on I-40 right? But did you know two bus crashes 600km apart had led to a 700km motorway? And back to the interstate system, As Charles Kuralt said "Thanks to the Interstate Highway System, it is now possible to travel across the country from coast to coast without seeing anything." which is very true. I want more freeways but so far, our longest freeway/motorway is only 300km long :(SHB2000 (talk) 07:44, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I didn't know about those things. It looks like you know more about the interstate system than I do. By the way, like many New Yorkers, I don't drive. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I still haven't got my license yet. I usually go with mates or family. Shocked to see that a lot of New Yorkers don't drive though. SHB2000 (talk) 07:57, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Don't be. Especially in Manhattan, you can get nearly everywhere through some combination of subway, bus and walking. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

And in Midtown, the traffic is so bad that walking is often as fast or faster than motorized surface transportation (car or bus). Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:03, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Did Subway get it's name from being next to NY subway stations? SHB2000 (talk) 08:54, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

No, it's because they make submarine sandwiches (badly). When I get a spare few days (in hindsight I probably should have done it when I was furloughed) I want to make a "Subway" map of New York, with lines connecting all the sandwich shops. There'd probably be so many, you could make a viable train network out of it.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek:, then how do most New Yorkers get out of NYC? SHB2000 (talk) 12:22, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Like you'd probably expect: airplanes, trains, buses. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:58, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Definitely unusual for an Australian. Not to say, I prefer to fly in the US rather than drive SHB2000 (talk) 06:26, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Spambot account

Biordbuy.za is a spambot for https://www.bidorbuy.co.za/ SHB2000 (talk) 07:06, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

You didn't link any account, but I'll probably see it in recent changes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:11, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

It's User:Bidorbuy.za SHB2000 (talk) 07:12, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

We normally don't preemptively block accounts unless they have offensive names or include words or expressions that make it obvious that they will vandalize. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:28, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I see. SHB2000 (talk) 09:47, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Flower Hill

Apologies for my slow response. I completely agree with what you said about the subdivision map – it's way too encyclopedic. I tried removing it but got a warning notification each time (something along the lines of how removing something that big can be considered vandalism). Should I still remove it and ignore the warning?

As far as the rest of the section goes, I feel that the rest should remain (as in the list and the new paragraph (see next sentence)). I added in a bit on why the subdivisions might be fascinating for a visitor (as many were built at different times, many have different feels and styles, and one might be shocked at how different two subdivisions look (including scenery)). I feel that it can be of interest for a visitor, in that sense. LINYperson615 (talk) 21:20, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The problem with the list of subdivisions is that it's a long list, doesn't tell the visitor where each one is, and in most cases gives them no information about what each subdivision is like and why they'd want to go there. On your question about the subdivisions map, yes, please ignore a warning and remove it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:22, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Touting guidelines

Natbill (talk) 19:53, 19 April 2021 (UTC)New user (Natbill); somewhat confused about your comments on the Chorefto / Zagora Greece page regarding touting. I sought to provide accurate, descriptive and informative information about an area of Greece that I know rather well. I am a native Chicagoan, recently of London and am definitely not engaged by any owner of the properties described. Please let me know what I have done to offend the Wiki gods. I have much more to add, but being spanked like that on my first effort is definitely not encouraging.

Hello and welcome, Natbill! Please read the guidelines at Wikivoyage:Don't tout and then ask me any specific questions you have. It may be that you copied some promotional language you read, but let's deal with specifics after you've read that page. Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:48, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. Having read the guidelines, I believe that my reviews for the restaurants and bars in Pouri, Chorefto and Zagora were, while positive, honest and unbiased. Having visited that area many times of the past thirty years, I would consider my assessments well-informed.

I'm not sure how you got that from the guidelines, and I'd also encourage you to read Wikivoyage:Words to avoid. Let's deal with some specifics:

"Plimari is the Greek seaside restaurant ideal."

Saying that a restaurant is "ideal", still more "the ideal", suggests that it is absolutely perfect and no other restaurant (or in this case, no other Greek seaside restaurant) could possibly be better. You may think so, but you probably haven't been to every restaurant in that category, so give the restaurant due praise but dial it down a bit, or describe rather than using this superlative.

"It sits in splendid isolation in front of the sea-worn rocks of Analipsi beach"

Unnecessarily purple prose. Just say it's isolated, or maybe "secluded" is the tone you're looking for.

"Well cooked seafood and complex stews are the specialties of this Pilion treasure."

It's not enough to describe the cuisine and say it's a nice place, it has to be a treasure?

User:Ground Zero and I combined to produce this detouted version of listings you added and one other listing. Let us know if you have any further questions. You may think this stuff is unimportant, but a lot of business owners and publicists have used exactly this kind of language, and the volunteer editors of this site long ago decided that we don't want to use that tone as part of our house style or encourage people to quote such language, which tends to make listings sound like hype instead of reliable opinions of other travelers. Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:44, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Ukraine

Just so you know, I do not watch RT, and did not get that from the Russian media. That claim was mentioned in this segment by an American progressive YouTuber, so make of it what you will. Nobody is saying that the Russians are not imperialists, or that they are right and America is wrong, but let's put it this way. Nobody comes out of a geopolitical contest a saint. In the world of geopolitics, everyone plays dirty, and benevolent great powers have never existed in the history of the world. The dog2 (talk) 20:55, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Some so-called progressives are pro-Putin. But it's the Russian line. The Ukrainian government is not Nazi although some Ukrainian nationalists are, and Putin supports Nazis and fascists all over the place. But this is all irrelevant to Wikivoyage and you know it. Drop it, eh? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:11, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Filter

Is there any point of there being a filter stopping people from typing AC's name? They only ever refer to themselves as AC, and whenever I type their name, it just triggers the filter (I triggered it at least seven times by accident). If AC themself never triggers this filter, then what's the point of having it? 82.3.185.12 17:43, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

• you seem too preoccupied about this user, perchance could you be related to him in any way? or even be him in another disguise? Just wondering. Ibaman (talk) 17:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ibaman: No, I am not this user. The only reason I edited his talk page was because lots of other people were, and I kept seeing it on lots of people's contribution pages. The reason I asked this question was because I kept accidentally triggering the filter. 82.3.185.12 18:03, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

It seems the filter isn't stopping anybody else – there is little reason for new users to type that name. It might be a nuisance for you, but even you has been caught by it just at a few occasions over the last few weeks. Do you think it is a big problem? –LPfi (talk) 19:18, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

@LPfi: Not really. 82.3.185.12 04:58, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

So stop fooling around with this. You've engendered suspicion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:27, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Okay. 82.3.185.12 05:53, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Image

• Sorry, I'm just so used to editing in Simple English (simple.wikipedia.org) , cause I am from the Simple English Wikipedia! Thanks for catching that --つがる (talk) 02:22, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Sure thing! Thank you for making the edits! Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:31, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Opinion requested in Talk:Jervis Bay

Hi there, your opinion is requested in Talk:Jervis Bay. I've proposed a major change and if done, this is fairly significant and will disrupt a number of articles. Thanks and take care, SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:52, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

PP my archive and slang archive page for a week?

Hi there, could you protect these two pages for me for a week? It's been a heavy target for GRP and I'm exhausted reverting his edits cross-wiki. Don't PP my talk page though as GF IP users have good reason to post on my talk page (e.g. User:82.3.185.12) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:56, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Done.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:39, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

:) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:53, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: - can you make it template editor. We've had a few cases of GRP having auto confirmed accounts. And I'm a template editor myself. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:31, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: Sorry for bugging you but can you also protect my userpage to template editor and admins only as well? It's also a target for GRP SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:25, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Notice of missing articles for states in Nigeria

Ikan Kekek, I recently noticed that the standard article category for Nigeria is Region>>>Cities, it should be Region>>state>>Cities, for example, Ibadan is under the southwestern Nigeria region, I feel there's an omission for states in Nigeria. I am saying Ibadan should be under Oyo-state, not directly under Southwestern Nigeria. I noticed the California article exist, and California is a state in the US. Also, the article about Lagos should be a stand-alone article called Lagos State (very debatable). States in each Nigerian region should have articles of their own.Haylad (talk) 09:56, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Please start a thread about this at Talk:Nigeria, but keep in mind that for there to be articles about every Nigerian state, there needs to be enough content. On the face of it, it seems sensible to have an article for each state, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:01, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Each of the Nigeria region articles has only a few articles linked to it. What would benefit travellers would be to create articles for cities and towns they might visit. When a region gets enough articles about cities and towns, then it would make sense to create state articles. As a travel guide, the political boundaries really do not matter to us as much as what is best for travellers. I think creating state articles would be putting the cart before the horse. Ground Zero (talk) 19:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind that I added a crucial "not" to your post. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:51, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

On the french wikivoyage, we have Australian towns, states but not LGAs or regions. Since I'm only beginning to do some stuff there, there's not a current need for it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 21:20, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, LG-whats? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:26, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Local Government Areas. Similar to US counties. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:50, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Ikan Kekek, I have moved the conversation to Talk:Nigeria, I believe there is enough content about Nigerian states @ Ground Zero, we just need more persons to create them, travellers will be moving from one state to another, I feel they should be aware of the states they are in. Haylad (talk) 10:11, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

As far as I know, there's no other editor from Nigeria. Perhaps try reaching out to Wikiproject:Nigeria on enwiki. I did the same on enwiki but to Wikiproject:Tasmania. Had to wait a while, but then JTdale came along here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:15, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

There's a bunch of Nigerians setting up an expedition (I assume that's still going ahead) - see top of the pub.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:30, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Ah yes, forgot about that. Didn't really interest me so I just ignored it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:33, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

We don't have an article on every county in the U.S., only in certain states. If there will be enough content (say, at least 5 non-stubby city articles) for each Nigerian state, go ahead and create articles for each state, but I kind of agree that it would make more sense to create the bottom-level articles (cities, parks, etc.) and then create the state articles when they are needed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:14, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

LGA's are a lot bigger than counties. And we only do it for the major ones like Sapphire Coast SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 02:01, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Size is not the only consideration, of course. How many of them have significant population? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:11, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

40k is nothing compared to the US but is big in Australian terms. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 02:14, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

But might not necessitate a region article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:15, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

About the external links

The issue here is the guy who added the external link that I reverted is someone with a history of flooding Special:RecentChanges with links, and at enough speed it's difficult to tell when their additions are good or not. I haven't removed the ones that are clearly correcting broken links or the like, but I'm not sure if this is behaviour that should be encouraged, because it makes it really difficult for recent changes patrollers to get a handle on what's going on and can cover up spam/vandalism by flooding it. The user in question had made an account and promised to taken more care with links, but he's not using the account, and he's doing so at the same high RC-flooding speeds. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 23:47, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Which of the links they're adding are not for legitimate official or quasi-official tourism agencies? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion requests

Please handle it when you can: Category:Speedy_deletion_candidates, some of them have been lying around for quite a while. Leaderboard (talk) 07:02, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Done except for one I'm not sure we should delete. Leaderboard, do you have the power to delete articles on this site? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:25, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I check Speedy deletion requests at least once a week, and usually every couple of days, so they can't have been "lying around" for that long. Pity the page doesn't show up on my watchlist.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:30, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Khambat is just one of the unnecessary redirects made by Soumya-8974. It redirected to Khambhat but there's no other name that similar to it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:31, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

No, I don't have the ability to delete pages on this site (as I am neither an admin here nor a global sysop/steward). @ThunderingTyphoons!:, some of them were like two months old. Leaderboard (talk) 07:39, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but they can't have been. I checked it last week.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:44, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks

I appreciate the “how to” links. Note that some of my styling was because my edits were reverted without explanation despite being accurate and up to date. I used “undo” to reinstated my changes and was then reprimanded for removing business information. So I went heavy handed and inserted information about the business(es) being closed directly into the page as it seemed whoever was reverting my edits wasn’t actually reading and comprehending the changes. (Otherwise they’d have know the information was accurate)

As for the subjective “cute baristas” and “crazy owner”, that is just silly and has no place in a respectable source of travel information. Unless that is this is a place to insert opinion and highly subjective information in which case it’s acceptable and there’s going to be plenty more where that came from.

Historys Stranglers (talk) 02:32, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

I see. And I saw Ground Zero's remark on your talk page, so I get the background. The way to avoid edit wars is to start a thread on the talk page of the article in question. I don't mind your removing the stuff about the baristas and so forth, but this site does indeed welcome and require subjective information; the site standard is be fair, not NPOV. But of course within reason. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:03, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for making the Islip article more fair for normal people. I thought that was pretty fair already until you came in sprucing things up. I apologize if I wasted your time.--JTZegers (talk) 16:21, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

No, not at all! You did a great job by increasing the information in the article! That's always the most important thing on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:25, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@JTZegers: It is looking better, indeed. Do you have any suggestions for pictures of Islip that would how the reader something of the place? Wikimedia Commons has a lot of pictures available for Islip, but I don't know what would be most representative. Ground Zero (talk) 19:36, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know, man. Look on Wikimedia Commons, and whatever looks good can go. Just make sure there aren't too many images.--JTZegers (talk) 00:05, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

About newsletter

Hi Ikan,

Recently I sended you the latest newsletter and you undo the new section. Please can you give advice of what isn't in english? The last thing is the communique and wasn't translated yet. The proposal is in english too. Regards, --Galahad (sasageyo!)^(esvoy) 16:29, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps I misread it, but I understood that it was all about Spanish-language sites, so sure, I could read and understand the newsletter, but I felt like there wasn't much point in clicking the links in it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Due to Affcom's recommendations, the name was changed and the communique reflects that the change will not affect support for other communities. On the other hand, it indicates that we have a mailing list and that there is an open proposal regarding changes in the group -which I have just translated into English-. That would be the summary of the newsletter :-). Regards, --Galahad (sasageyo!)^(esvoy) 19:11, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I had my suspicions...

...but I tried to play nice in case my New York street smarts were off kilter due to the pandemic. I'm glad you intervened. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 07:31, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Sometimes, users make it obvious. Complaining about being blocked as a new user is almost always a guarantee of being some kind of non-constructive user. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:33, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Global locks requested. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:01, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I am not able to globally lock. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:05, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry about the really short reply. I reported that user to Stewards, since they're blocked on more than one wiki, and they only seem to be vandalising pages. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:07, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

OK, cool. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:15, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Also, how long ago was this user blocked on Commons. I went there, and they weren't blocked. Surprising. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:19, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't remember, May 30 I think? You could probably see if you look at their contributions on Commons. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:59, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Just had a look, and yes, I just realised that it's seven days now. I also don't know why this user is repeatedly just blurting "I am a bad person". tbh. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:11, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Some people are like that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:32, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Just noticed that they are locked now. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:17, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Just letting you know that this user has now got another account on commons called Molly Mathatho on commons. Just a word of advice to keep a close look on this user. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:18, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:43, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

This user is back as Nale Mathatho but I've requested a global lock, and SelfieCity's blocked her. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 22:04, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I already saw what happened on this site. I follow these things when I'm online. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:07, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Curious

It is curious that no-one in the Wikivoyage has created an article for Insomnia, a place where a lot of work in this project seems to be done. Ground Zero (talk) 08:02, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

True, but what's the travel angle? ;-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:04, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

ha, I didn't even notice that there was no article for that. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:07, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

I'd particularly like to see a "Get out" section. (SHB: it's 4am in Toronto and New York.) Ground Zero (talk) 08:13, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

I see I'm not the only one who usually is editing at night ;) (sometimes between 2300-0050, also please don't mind me using 24hr time) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:24, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Insomnia by definition fails the "Can you sleep there?"-test, so it should NOT get its own article. --Ypsilon (talk) 08:33, 11 June 2021 (UTC) , just finished lunch

Okay, so I obviously can't think properly, and I'm still feeling the effects of standing for 4.5 hrs in the cold, and during a storm, not being able to move one bit. But I meant, a subsection on Wikivoyage:Joke articles. Also, if my messages are poorly formatted, blame the fact that I've lost my voice completely, and I often write, like I'm talking. Anyway, considering it's 0600 in NYC and Toronto, hope you both take some rest soon. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:33, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Also, @Ground Zero, Ikan Kekek:, for that matter, I just added insomnia to Wiktionary at wikt:na:insomnia. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:40, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

I was asleep before 6, thank goodness. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:06, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Furthermore, @Ground Zero:, where even is Insomnia? —The preceding comment was added by JTZegers (talk • contribs)

It's the inability to sleep, and not a real place. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:04, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Also JTZegers and Ypsilon, this entire thread is meant to me a joke, and not seriously. My addition of insomnia to the nauruan wiktionary is also meant to be a joke (but it's there permanently now). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:18, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Somebody tell Ground Zero that he's out of his mind for thinking Insomnia should be an article. I'm too busy being involved in a rather lengthy debate on Talk:Presidents of the United States.--JTZegers (talk) 20:44, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

It was a joke, because Ikan Kekek and I were both editing at 4am.... And I've never claimed to be in my right mind. 😀 Ground Zero (talk) 20:56, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Another one of those "for legal reasons that's a joke" moments. You got me on that one. Meanwhile, I was throwing The dog2 under the bus.--JTZegers (talk) 21:08, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

There's also the moments where I see User:DaGizza and I editing at 0030 or 0100. (AEST) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 22:21, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

@Ground Zero:, at least - from what I could do, I'd add it on another language Wiktionary if I could, but only on the Nauruan at this point (that's because it's an abandoned WMF project - or that's what it feels like). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 22:26, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Haha, and make an article on How to Ruin a Party too. I bet that's what people are going to want to do in Insomnia. I'm sure everyone will hate me for that. Why? Because everyone here hates me. Travelers hate me, admins...hate me! I have what doctors call a punchable face.--JTZegers (talk) 01:23, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't hate you. I'm just pissy at times, since I've had a tiring day (possibly blame me doing parades). I do a lot of silly things as well (such as outing the details of the Abuse filter). What's it like at en.wikipedia though? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:27, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

But at the same time, I can't comment because the two projects I'm admin on, are projects that no editor here (or on en.wikipedia) contributes to. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:29, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I alienated Wikipedia by getting blocked there, but I’ll probably be back in November. I learned a lot here. Such as don’t go full Bernie Sanders on consensuses and say that the real problem is politics.—JTZegers (talk) 01:45, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I still don't understand why you had TPA removed. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:53, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

JTZegers, criticizing you for IMO picking an unnecessary and unnecessarily vociferous fight is not the same as hating you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:08, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I don’t either. JTZegers (talk) 02:07, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

When it comes to blocking, I have never revoked TPA, including with LTA's such as this one. Often, people change, and revoking TPA will only make one be more aggravated and not do the effect of a block. To be honest, these are just some of the reasons why I don't contribute to Wikipedia. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 02:16, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Well, after I was blocked, wikivoyage was one of the things I turned to to cope.—JTZegers (talk) 02:28, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

What's TPA? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:09, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Talk page access. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:14, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Also correction to my above cmt, I mean either the English or French Wikipedia. I'm fine with others, if only I knew the language. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:19, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

You're right. The only one who hates me at this point is John M Wolfson.--JTZegers (talk) 00:56, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Attention Needed!

Hi Ikan Kekek,

I want to notify you that I posed a question to you, while responding to your comment on an article I recently created, seeking your suggestions and contributions on how I may improve the article. This is so that I may correct the identified issue before proceeding with more edits and that I may avoid such in future edits. And its been days that I have been waiting for your response, only to have yet receive it. However, I want to let you know that I had went through the copyleft guide, the link of which you provided, and still have some clarifications to make and questions to ask: Since the source of the particular article is from wikipedia, how may I properly cite the article and as well include the license terms link in the edit summary? Also, where could I possibly get the link to the license terms? Your contribution will be highly valued and appreciated.

Regards. Osenibabalola0 (talk) 12:21, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Simply go to the talk page and add the following {{Wikipedia|article name}} at the top. That's one way, the second way is how User:Ground Zero does it; something like this. Hope this helps. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:09, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes it helps. Thanks for that, you are appreciated. Osenibabalola0 (talk) 14:11, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

No worries mate! Glad I could help. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:14, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Osenibabalola0, I'm sorry I missed your reply. I'm not sure why, but I'm glad these things seem to be clarified now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:28, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

No worries! The issue had been resolved and that was what really matters. Thanks. Osenibabalola0 (talk) 16:05, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Reply

Thank you for the correction sir[#Kingaustin07 (talk) 09:30, 14 June 2021 (UTC)]

Please start a new thread, as when I first read your message, it does not make sense until I checked RC. Also, you can reply from there as well. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:35, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

What's RC? Anyway, sure thing, Kingaustin07. Would you like to make the corrections? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:13, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Recent changes, I presume. But the less acronyms one uses, the less problems with understanding, and the less of a feel of their being an inner group. IK will hardly feel like an outsider, but Kingaustin07 might. I am often frustrated by the "reason" codes (from en-wp?) at Commons, as I have to look them up every time, instead of concentrating on the message. Those less experienced are just left in the dark. –LPfi (talk) 09:47, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

RC is just what I and most vandal hunters on the English Wikipedia call it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:41, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes: insiders with a background in a specific project. That's the problem for me on Commons, too. –LPfi (talk) 14:01, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Regarding this edit

Hi Ikan, if you're wondering why it didn't work, it's because the pagebanner only takes the following variables:

• Europe
• North America
• none

• Asia
• Middle East
• ME
• North Africa

• Caribbean

• Australia
• Oceania

• New Zealand
• NZ

• South America
• Africa

plus TT, disambg., flying, dive, itinerary or phrasebook.

Hope that helps. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:43, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. So it should read "Africa", not "North Africa", as Nigeria is not in North Africa but in West Africa. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:44, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

I think north africa just means that it's either Sub-saharan africa or Saharan Africa. The North Africa one has a little bit of Nigeria in the image, but not a lot. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:49, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

North Africa does not include any of Sub-Saharan Africa. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:51, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

True, but the North Africa pagebanner at least showed some of Nigeria. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:02, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

The pagebanner is of Casablanca. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:51, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Brendan?

I know this edit is very much like Brendan's edit, but the one thing that's lead me to questioning about this edit is when I reverted his edit, it was 00:20 in Sydney and Brendan never edits this late at night. So should I leave it like it is, or revert myself? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 23:23, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

It looked like a typical edit of his. You did the right thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:25, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

He's particularly more active today. Maybe because it's currently uni holidays? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:27, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Probably not worth thinking about much. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:28, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

:) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:32, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Indef protection for my talk page

With the protection coming to an end for my talk page, it might be the return of GRP, who miraculously went away after my talk page was protected, thrice. It's ending in a couple of days, but I'll be leaving to the skifields tonight for another few days, so hence the early request. There's only been one good faith IP user that has actually asked me something (82.3.185.12) and I also have a designated IP talk page so it does not disrupt the main talk page, so they're not completely cut off from leaving me messages. I still frequently check the IP talk page, and it has somewhat turned out to be a success. GRP doesn't know about it, and if he did try and vandalise he'd've missed the header because he'd be wanting to go to the bottom of the page, but if it's protected, he'd have left Wikivoyage and gone to some other WMF project (which is not good, but I believe they have some filters against him). Thanks! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:12, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure how I feel about indef protection. I've given you 3 months of protection from non-autoconfirmed users. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:39, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. There's still the User talk:SHB2000/IP talk page so communication isn't cut off. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 02:08, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

We'll talk about this more in the near future. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:48, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

:) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 03:05, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Piedmont

Hi, can you delete this Luchy04 edit? The abuse filter intervened and did not allow me to delete all that text. I only deleted the version that can be kept. I'm not very good at English so I ask you: keep an eye on Luchy04. He edits in wikivoyage in Italian but most of his edits are out of place and they are all copyright violation (in this case perhaps via google translate)

Have a nice day--3Pappa3 (talk) 21:05, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Done

Ikan, I can confirm that Luchy04 has also been posting copyrighted material on French Wikivoyage, so I suggest all his edits here be checked.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:19, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Considering the great length of the background info they add, it's not surprising that it's copypasta. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:19, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

So really, the surgery to their articles could've been all avoided if it were known that's it's a copyvio. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:42, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Yep. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:43, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

But it's not all copyvio, which is why I said the edits should be checked out, rather than deleted immediately.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:10, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

That's more complicated. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:11, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Oh yes.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:13, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Fang/imgs

I guess I suck at img files 📁, no more for me. Highjumpermsu (talk) 09:46, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not perceiving that; I just don't understand why you uploaded that here instead of to Commons. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:48, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Ikan, if it's causing a problem I say delete it. Apologies. Highjumpermsu (talk) 09:51, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Please stop deprecating yourself and jumping to drastic conclusions. Do you think the photo would be deleted if you uploaded it to Commons? If so, why? Did you take the photo? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:55, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry but I am being careful so I don't get indef blocked again. Heres the link 🔗 sorry for confusion, I just thought a image would be helpful, I guess I was wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Songthaew_3.jpg, Not my work but it's fair use? Highjumpermsu (talk) 10:11, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

indef blocked again. I looked on Special:CentralAuth/Highjumpermsu and you're not blocked on any WMF project. Have you had another account before? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:47, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The question is why you would think this photo would be likely to be deleted on Commons. If there's no good reason to think that, it shouldn't be uploaded locally. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:29, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Can we please move on from this discussion? I'm sorry, okay? Mistake made. Highjumpermsu (talk) 19:13, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, but you never answered my question, and you need to be able to engage in discussions on Wikivoyage without every question unduly upsetting you. No-one attacked you, yet you are beating yourself up and can't bear to answer my question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:08, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Seems settled now. Any other questions ask away! Highjumpermsu (talk) 23:49, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Tip

If you want to rollback edits quickly but with an edit summary (similar to what you did in Eastern Europe). You should install this gadget: m:User:Xiplus/TwinkleGlobal. It's pretty useful and thought you may not be aware of it. Cheers, --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

You can rollback edits without that script. Just append &summary=reason to the end. Leaderboard (talk) 12:31, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

How do you add that code? And the only reason I'm suggesting Twinkle is because it doesn't interfere with the rollback tool that any sysop would have. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:36, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Copy the link for rollbacking (that is, the [rollback] link) and then append that to the end. Leaderboard (talk) 15:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Isn't that at least as cumbersome as undoing? You'd need some shortcut automatically adding the code, turning blanks in the reason parameter into underscores (and ideally encoding any other URL special characters, unless you can avoid using them). I suppose you'd need a summary field somewhere, fetched and handled by the action connected to the rollback button. I suppose that is more or less what Twinkle does (beside other features). –LPfi (talk) 08:53, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I've always just found Twinkle easy to use, and hence my extreme trust in Twinkle (especially when dealing with touts). It would be nice to have a global redwarn, but that's only on the English Wikipedia for now. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:47, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Vkem

I'd like for you to ask whether Vkem should really be an autopatrolled user. There's a shit ton of his edits which are copyvio's, and some are even copied directly google's page translator, which has spelling errors or makes no grammatical sense. I think I and LPfi would prefer to patrol his edits, rather than having his edits autopatrolled. Thanks! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:34, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree. I have more or less given up on him. I still think some of the edits are truly useful, while the problems are minor. I try to keep an eye on them, and at times make a bigger fix-up instead of fixing the minor errors. It seems he uses some automation, as part of the wordings are identical, and although he seems to kind of check validity of advice, it is often too general, such as linking to the railway site for timetables in a region Get around even when there is just a single train station in the region. –LPfi (talk) 10:11, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

To add, I'm not against his contributions at all. He's been a great contributor, but unfortunately, they've still not learnt the lesson from why their sysop tools were stripped of fi.wikipedia (on the second vote). Although the main reason was he didn't have the need for sysop tools, the latter was for copyright problems. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:14, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

No, and I was thinking "Who made Vkem an autopatroller?" I did. But in my defense, all the threads on their user talk page other than the welcome were put there after I changed their status. I will lift their autopatroller status. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:15, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Ikan :) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:55, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Sure thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:55, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm glad it happened today, and not after Saturday. Otherwise, I'd have removed it without consensus (which I don't think we did with KevRobbAU) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:06, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

It would have been OK to do that with an edit summary and a post to their user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Hong Kong independence

To answer your question, there was a Hong Kong independence rally held a couple of weeks ago in London's Leicester Square, where political exiles from Hong Kong were waving colonial flags and singing God Save The Queen, and also declaring that this is the way Hong Kong should be. The National Security Law may have suppressed public expression of pro-independence or pro-colonialism sentiments, but that doesn't mean that those sentiments have gone away. If anything, it is likely to lead to more resentment against Beijing, which could in turn increase support for the independence movement or for re-colonisation by the British. In fact, a police officer was just stabbed in Hong Kong over the weekend, and the attacker (who subsequently committed suicide by stabbing himself in the heart) left a suicide note declaring his hatred for the Hong Kong police and opposition to the National Security Law. A few locals actually held a vigil for the attacker on the site of the incident, and Hong Kong independence activists on Twitter declared him a martyr. As you can see, resentment against Chinese rule is still strong. The dog2 (talk) 18:23, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, but I'm skeptical. I remember the Tiananmen reform movement of 1989 vividly. The Chinese authorities managed to suppress that by killing thousands of people and putting a whole lot of people in prison. I wouldn't bet against their suppressing anything happening in Hong Kong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:42, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

And just something extra recently from a HK local. The police claimed that they've foiled a bomb conspiracy by a radical HK independence organization that advocates armed opposition against the government. So perhaps real terrorist actions (not officially declared ones, but those that might place travellers under life-threatening situations) shouldn't be ruled out?廣九直通車 (talk) 05:09, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Is the feeling in Hong Kong that the allegation is likely to be true or made-up propaganda? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:33, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know too much exactly either, and this only serves as a reminder of the local situation. Public resentment to the government, nevertheless, is still high actually.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:27, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Of course it is! You don't engender love by beating people up. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:03, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

In the initial phase of the COVID-19 pandemic, when pretty much only China was affected, some Hong Kong independence activists detonated bombs in a hospital to demand that the government completely shut the border with mainland China, but thankfully, nobody was hurt. And I saw interview with a Hong Kong independence activist in exile in America, and he said that he is trying to join the U.S. Army in the hopes that he can participate in a U.S.-led invasion of Hong Kong to kick the Chinese out and secure independence for Hong Kong. I don't have access to intelligence reports so obviously, I don't know what is true and what is propaganda, but I won't be surprised if the ongoing crackdown has made resentment levels against China so high that pro-independence Hongkongers will feel compelled to carry out terrorist attacks.

And as a side note, the propaganda goes both ways. As I previously mentioned, many pro-independence Hongkongers believe that the Opium Wars were a result of unwarranted Chinese aggression against the British, and were fought by the British to save China from a drug addiction crisis. And that was being taught in schools by some pro-independence history teachers prior to the start of the ongoing crackdown. The dog2 (talk) 19:26, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, you did mention that, and I find it stupefying. I'm sorry to hear if there are any Hong Kongers who think the U.S. would ever invade Hong Kong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:01, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh well, young people are often very idealistic. Many young Taiwanese want Taiwan to declare independence right now, because they believe that America and Japan will stand up for human rights and democracy, and send their militaries to help Taiwan fight off the Chinese invasion that is sure to ensue. And as you know, Taiwan and Hong Kong are very similar in that the youths are overwhelmingly pro-independence, reject the Chinese identity and generally have positive views of colonial rule in their respective areas. The dog2 (talk) 23:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I do not know that youths in Hong Kong are overwhelmingly pro-indepedence and that young people in Hong Kong and Taiwan have generally positive views of colonial rule. Ugh, Japanese imperialism! And the British were even worse, but in more recent decades, their rule was in fact benign in Hong Kong. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:02, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Chautauqua edits

Hi, Ikan. Can you explain your reasoning for this edit? I suppose it reads fine either way, though I think I'd have removed the definite article. But I was wondering if you had a particular case to make for putting "magazine" after "Smithsonian". Powers ^(talk) 21:09, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

I feel like it reads better. People don't usually say "the magazine, Time" but "Time magazine". Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:55, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

You're right about Time. I think maybe "Time magazine" (or "Life magazine" for that matter) became idiomatic because just saying "Time" (or "Life") is ambiguous in speech. I don't think Smithsonian has the same problem, but like I said I guess it works either way. Would you object to removal of "the"? Powers ^(talk) 02:17, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

No, I'm fine with that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:26, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

WikiSP Newsletter #2 (2021-06)

WikiSP Newsletter of July 2021.

Members

Gauri • Kwangya

News on complementary policies or changes to the Foundational Text

• Following the recommendations of the Council, the Linguistic Commission has been dissolved. It has been replaced by the Central Commission of Languages and the Project Hubs

Tech news

• We have performed maintenance on the Delta server.
• The bouncer is a service that allows a 24/7 connection to IRC so you don't miss anything. Following the migration of freenode to libera.chat, this group now offers this service. You can read about it here.

Miscellaneous

• In order for the project hubs to function properly, we require that members of the community of each project that this project focuses on be able to join the hubs. Specifically, we are looking for members of the communities of: enwikivoyage, dewikivoyage and all projects in Spanish.
• Remember you can subscribe to mailing list and find out about the latest news from the group (it will be added as a button at the bottom of this newsletter), you can also connect with us on #wikimedia-sp or subscribe to the Telegram version of this newsletter.

---

• • • •

16:10, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Can someone explain what this means? "[W]e require that members of the community of each project that this project focuses on be able to join the hubs." Is there a way we could prevent people from joining the hubs if we wanted to? Do we need to do anything to make it possible for people to join the hubs? I also don't understand what we're supposed to be doing on the hubs. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:20, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

If someone wants to join the hubs, are warmly welcomed! Except if the user was blocked by the group, WMF or project, no. Not necessarily that everyone joins, but those who can serve as a voice for the projects that one can ask "hey, we want to do this, how do you think we could adapt it to the project?" After all, as the page says "provide a clear vision of a particular project, know the weak points of each project and discuss potential solutions that could benefit them [...] but may be invited to contribute their knowledge on some topics that may be unfamiliar to Wikimedia Small Projects". I hope I have answered. In any case, if you do not want this newsletter, I can withdraw you next month. --Galahad (sasageyo!)^(esvoy) 16:33, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Galahad. Don't withdraw me, please. Is there any current discussion that involves en.voy? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:29, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

At the moment no, project hubs will be a center for the projects: ex, if you want be the ambassador of enwikivoyage, will be included within the wikivoyage project hub. By forming this, we benefit. If we want to do positive things, let us at least know whether we can do it or not. Regards, --Galahad (sasageyo!)^(esvoy) 17:36, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I feel it as well

Quite unrelated to Wikivoyage, but

this revision, and this revision should explain it all ;).

Plus, thanks for copyediting the Georgian cuisine article. Looking good for a FTT nom. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:28, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Sure thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:53, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Special:Diff/4249275/4249295

The original edit was on 10 June, so I think the first sentence was meant to say "As of 9 June 2021" instead of "As of 9 July 2021". But I'm not too sure, and you're more familiar with Jersey than I am. (for starters, I didn't even know a place like that existed until now) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

But if they still require masks on public transport, they haven't eliminated all restrictions, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:20, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

That's true. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:26, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Security Expedition?

I've noticed your edit and response on Eswatini, and I certainly feel the need to make timely updates on various articles. Do you think an expedition focusing on security situations of various destinations will be helpful to Wikivoyage? Regards.廣九直通車 (talk) 04:39, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion, yes. I do think it's useful. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:41, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Maybe a "Stay safe" expedition, checking articles, starting at the country level and going down from there, to make sure they're as up-to-date as possible. We need to note, though, that as long as the pandemic continues, there could be very rapid changes in public health conditions almost anywhere. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:39, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

But it could work for non covid related issues. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:49, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Right, but we can't ignore those. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:11, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Posted on Pub#Proposal for Stay safe Expedition, regards.廣九直通車 (talk) 11:19, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I had my suspicions....

it seems like assuming good faith didn't work here. Oh well, now their business is blacklisted, so we don't have to worry. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:40, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

They may still come back and try to advertise some other way. I didn't assume any good faith, but I did follow normal procedures. the penalty for block-evasion is an indefinite ban, and 1 month is usually the most for an IP address (though 3 months are possible). Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:51, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Well... if the link is blacklisted, then how do they even advertise their business without links? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:53, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

You'll see sometime. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:57, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP range as well so even if they switch IP's, they're unlikely to get one outside this range. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Is this about 202.126.0.0/17? Are you aware that /17 means 2^15=32,000 addresses? I suppose the business doesn't have that many, so most of the addresses are in use by innocent people. Even if this is the shortest prefix (I didn't check), I doubt it is worth the collateral damage, especially as their URL is already blacklisted. –LPfi (talk) 08:27, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes I am well aware about it. But the next shortest, 202.126.0.0/18 doesn't cover these edits, so 17 is the only range option here. The last good edit by that IP range was before April, so very few will be affected. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:31, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

This is a manageable, limited touting edit war. Please unblock that IP range right away. We shouldn't take drastic steps except when they're necessary because of really destructive vandalism. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:46, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Done SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:05, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

FYI: ARR8

He'd have been inactive for two years as of Wednesday so just letting you know about his sysop and interface-admin privileges. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:20, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Also Sumone10154 hasn't edited for 2.5 years. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:31, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

This isn't personal to me. The place to bring these things up is Wikivoyage talk:User rights nominations. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:25, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't know any other 'crat here though. Your the only one that I know. But I'll bring it up there as well. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:53, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

You're still new here, so you are unfamiliar with this procedure. It's not done as a unilateral desysopping by a bureaucrat. Here's a list of bureaucrats on this site. Not all are very active, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:59, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for the list. That's a lot more than I thought. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:15, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

w:ja:LTA:SLIME

Would 1 month be an appropriate block? If your wondering why I clicked "1 year" that's because I just wanted to click something so that user can be blocked until I nuke his pages. But anyway, thanks for deleting the first page. FYI: Most of the time, if it's the vandal who creates things in Japanese, it's probably w:ja:LTA:SLIME or their impersonators. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:48, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Sure, 1 month is fine, though I tried just deleting without comment, then seeing whether they do anything more. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

It is discrimination!!!

I think that these measures are discrimination and this the most light word that can i find, but we are not here to play with words, if you dont like this word use another, the readers and travellers will judge what is these measures, at any case i am here to inform the travellers and i will do that. User:Green Duke Italia. —The preceding comment was added by Green Duke Italia (talk • contribs)

Did you read my edit summary and Ikan's message on your talk page? It may seem like discrimination to you, but not towards others. Yes, Original research is allowed here, but personal opinions aren't. So I suggest that you take these messages more seriously. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 14:00, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Spam blacklist of the waytomongolia tour

I think we screwed that one up. It seems like that IP was not a tout, but simply just changed their name which resulted in their website being blacklisted because it seemed like they were removing their competitors business. LPfi found out that both websites are linked, so I guess... I don't know what to do. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Take the URL off the blacklist, unblock the accounts at issue and let them know that they can make the needed changes. And thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:05, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Also note the removal from the blacklist in the relevant thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:06, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Lock evasion account?

Day dreamer m.mac ; )

You'd think that's a lock evasion account? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Just waking up; can you give me some context, like a link to contributions? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:04, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, I see. Maybe, but as long as the user's posts are limited to their user and user talk pages, not much harm done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Doing similar things to that vandalism only account you blocked earlier this afternoon. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, similar. But what made me block that one was that it also posted to the user talk page of the locked account. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:12, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry about that response, there was an edit conflict and for some reason the edit conflict gadget didn't appear which caused an unusual response. Strange. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I didn't notice anything strange. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:47, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

The original edit that I intended to publish was this:

Just waking up; can you give me some context, like a link to contributions? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:04, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Doing similar things to that vandalism only account you blocked earlier this afternoon. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, I see. Maybe, but as long as the user's posts are limited to their user and user talk pages, not much harm done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

--SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, it didn't strike me as strange. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:53, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Brendan

Looks like he switched providers from Telstra to Optus. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:24, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, I wasn't checking. I just judge from the content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:05, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

The joke of this thread was that most call him the "Telstra" or "Telstraman", but now he doesn't even use Telstra ;) Probably some news to SelfieCity as well. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:08, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, always funny when I see the company's branding in football games and other events, because I think of Wikivoyage. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 11:10, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, after all, the largest network provider in Australia, also which I use. I haven't seen it much in soccer games (but I only watch like one? per year), occasionally see it in AFL but mainly see it in rugby games. Doesn't remind me of Wikivoyage much since I've called him Brendan for a while. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:16, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Over here we use Spectrum, which is incredibly reliable, even though we get a couple thunderstorms every week. A direct lightning strike and internet is back in 5-10 minutes. When I'm in California I use Comcast, which is variable. On a good day it's faster than Spectrum, but on a bad day the internet can be down for a few hours. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 11:19, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

I just use AT&T when up there. In my opinion, alright, but not so great in Arizona. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:25, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Looks like he's gone back to Telstra. He was probably using a public Wi-fi then, since most public Wi-Fi's tend to use Optus (for cost reasons). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:08, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Please avoid edit summaries when dealing with that WMF banned user

Please don't use edit summaries when dealing with Ljupco. Engaging with him will only encourage him ever so more that he'll try and vandalize more. Thus, I've rev del'd your edit summary (I don't think he's aware of your edit summary yet), but please take this into consideration in the future. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:55, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

The YouTube link? I couldn't tell who put that there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:20, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for being quite harsh there. The best way to tell if it's his edit is by his edit summary in Ljupco style shouting, and the content is nonsense or just copied from somewhere else (since he can't express himself coherently). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:31, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Post codes in Germany

Given your recent removal of the post code from a listing in Berlin. I think I'd mentioned before that several streets exist more than once in Berlin (this one seems to be unique, but still) and thus and for general purposes of orientation the postcodes serve the voyager. Especially if we want to be the only website they'll need to plan their trip. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:15, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorry. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:27, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

No problem Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:58, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Clarification for the usage of term " Mofussil Bus"

In a edit summary which you have made on 31.07.2021 on page named - " Tirunelveli", you have asked what the term "Mofussil means. "Mofussil" is a word which denotes rural (or) suburban regions which are located near(or)around the city. Hence, Mofussil bus means, a bus, which connects the rural and suburban parts to the main city. I think the term may be unfamiliar to you because, it is used in India. Also, the term have originated from Urdu language which is spoken only in Indian subcontinent. For clarification —The preceding comment was added by Vishwa Sundar (talk • contribs)

Thanks, Vishwa Sundar, I appreciate the clarification. This should be clarified in India#By bus if it is not already explained there. (Parenthetically, I signed for you - edits on talk pages are signed at the end of the edit by typing 4 tildes [~] in a row.)

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:28, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

New golden route

I was trying to make a map using the mapframe and marker template but it seemed to break and loads an error message you can see it in the get in section, could you help? Thank you! Also I feel the New golden route article fufills the criteria for a usuable itinerary could you upgrade or tell me what needs to be added (my guess would be understand is too short. -—The preceding comment was added by Tai123.123 (talk • contribs) 00:11, 6 August 2021 I fixed it, the error came from capatilizing city in type -Tai123.123

Using the format used on New South Wales National Parks, use the wikidata rather than lat and longs that we use. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:18, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

SHB2000, thanks for answering. I don't know much about the technicalities of dynamic maps. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:49, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion, dynamic maps are easier to use than static maps, but that's probably just me with my technical knowledge here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:37, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm having trouble uploading the banner I made for it (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/131109_Kenrokuen_Kanazawa_Ishikawa_pref_Japan01s3.jpg/800px-131109_Kenrokuen_Kanazawa_Ishikawa_pref_Japan01s3.jpg). Tai123.123 (talk) 15:49, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Tai123.123:I have added it to the article. You do not need to upload it specifically to Wikivoyage. All you need to add is: 131109_Kenrokuen_Kanazawa_Ishikawa_pref_Japan01s3 (cropped).jpg

Take a look at the edit source mode when you have the chance. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:03, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Tai123.123 (talk) 16:04, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

210

Confirmed that it's Brendan. Seems like he thinks using an IP can get him under the radar. Also, thanks for picking up my mitsake at Talk:Indonesia. Plan to mass replace all these infoboxes and add phone numbers as well. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:37, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I think for articles about Indonesia, whichever form of English is used is fine, as long as it's consistent. I wouldn't want people to utterly waste time "correcting" one form of English to another. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:43, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Also to that edit on North Rhine, that isn't Brendan. It doesn't geolocate to Maroochydore. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:59, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

OK. Strange phrasing, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:00, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

This was him, although I think it may be best to rephrase that. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:39, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

It's not a listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

A1C

You might not be aware of it, but it has finally happened. Now we'll have a lot less edits from community tech bot. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:57, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I wasn't aware. Some of the other Commons users will pick up some of the slack, of course, but this is a good step. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:34, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Looks like he's trying to get his rollback right again at c:User talk:King of Hearts#Revoke rights... SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:37, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I just looked at some of his block warnings "You will be blocked". What an asshole! Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:43, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

What I don't get is he's not allowed to threaten someone with those, but he's allowed to use a template (which last week he threatened to an artist uploading her own work questioning about its originality and the lack of EXIF data). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:54, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I suppose that is because the wordings are agreed on, not the "will be blocked" stuff, because that part of the topic ban was the only thing questioned, and because there was no discussion on that part. –LPfi (talk) 07:27, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

His block warnings were mentioned in the thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:57, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Cuaxdon - Vandalism only account

Would you think so? They were the one who created that out of scope template, and have 0% good edits? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:23, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Remember, deny recognition. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:04, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

They've got a meta userpage (a lot more fancier than mine) which is why I was asking. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 03:58, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I act based on what I see on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:11, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

WikiSP Newsletter #3 (2021-08)

WikiSP Newsletter of August 2021.

Members

Jsmura • Villalaso • Manlleus • Laura Fiorucci

Ongoing discussions

• A discussion on changes to the membership policy is underway,
• A discussion on increasing temporary seats on the Administrative Commission is underway.

Miscellaneous

• We have reached 25 members!
• Members to the Regional Committees were recently selected. Congratulations to Alexandrabello for joining the LATAM and The Caribbean Committee.
• SmallProjects starts on August 16. A synthesized version of how the project will work can be found here.

---

• • • •

20:49, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

SLIME

FYI: Reported the IP for a global block as they're w:ja:LTA:SLIME. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 03:57, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:10, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Linking to official websites in other languages

Should i link to the official websites of hotels listed in stay if they are in Japanese? Thank you! Tai123.123 (talk) 21:23, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. If they have English-language sites, link to those instead, but if a Japanese-language site is all they have, definitely put that in the url tab. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

The official tourism board also has a page of places to sleep in Japanese should i link it Tai123.123 (talk) 22:02, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, in a templated listing for the Tourism Office in "Understand". One thing you didn't ask: Please don't delete unused fields in listing templates. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:26, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

if fax and phone number should i list both? Tai123.123 (talk) 22:43, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Fax has been deprecated from our templates in that you won't see the field if you click "add listing". It doesn't need to be listed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:47, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

ok, I've never used a fax in my life Tai123.123 (talk) 22:54, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Understood. I'm sure you've never sent a telegram, either. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:01, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes Tai123.123 (talk) 00:34, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I was just making a lighthearted joke. I remember sending a telegram now and then many moons ago. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:58, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I forgot what a telegram was until now. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:07, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

It's been a long time! Did Western Union have offices in Australia? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:10, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

They still do, particularly in Melb. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:04, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Do you link Awashima can be upgraded to usable as it's about as detailed as an article about an island of 300 people can be Tai123.123 (talk) 00:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Done. It can be upgraded to guide soon, just with some brush ups with the get in and get around section, but it's really good for it's state. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:40, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! What do you feel can be improved in the get in section as i feel it is pretty complete (i understand that get around needs work though Tai123.123 (talk) 01:36, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps you might want to have it like two of our best rural area articles, Norfolk Island or Central Nordsjælland, but there's also one of my favourites, Kangaroo Island that you might want to use. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:44, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you Tai123.123 (talk) 02:09, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Made a banner, what do you think Tai123.123 (talk) 02:21, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

LGTM so I replaced it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:25, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I updated Go around is there any other section that needs to be upgraded before it can get guide status Tai123.123 (talk) 05:08, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Important birding area

Important Birding Area is a proper name and has an agreed upon set of criteria. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Important_Bird_Area Tai123.123 (talk) 04:33, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Can I divide kiso valley

Can I give tsumago, Magome and Narai individual articles and turn the kiso valley into an extra hierarchal region, I think this should happen as there is enough to list in each individual town and the kiso valley is to large to have one stay/eat/do section.

Also what should i change before updating awashima to guide Tai123.123 (talk) 02:30, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

If you want, but make the proposal on the article's talk page though, and the community can decide. For Awashima, I'm okay with it, but I'd wait for another person's opinion before the upgrade. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:49, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd trust your judgment on what to write an article about. I'll read the Awashima article when I have a chance. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:50, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

IP at Libya

That's Brendan. Edit looks a typical edit of his, and it geolocates to SE Qld. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:29, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I just summarily revert any edit that doesn't make sense or seems fatuous or valueless like that. It doesn't really matter to me whether you find that it's by that guy or not, and I mean this in a friendly way: it's really not worth the time to discuss it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:16, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Person in banner image

Hi Ikan, a quick question: Is it OK to have a banner for Najran that has a person visible in it? It's of a museum guard, so I figure there's no expectation of privacy, but I don't know what the policy is on these. I made another banner just in case, but it's much less badass, with no robes or swords. Travelwriter1000 (talk) 15:32, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, looks OK to me. The policy is at Wikivoyage:Image policy#People in photos. Basically, we don't want to use someone's personal selfies. That's not what this is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:00, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

How to name articles

Like I mentioned earlier I am planning to divide the Kiso Valley and as no one as objected to my message on its talk page I will go ahead with it soon. My dilemma comes from what to name each article, the two biggest attractions in the Kiso Valley are Tsumago and Magome, both well preserved post towns though they fall into the cities of Nagiso and Nakatsugawa. As they only make up a small percentage of each city I feel it would misleading to title the articles, Nagiso and Nakatsugawa yet have all the imformation be about one small section of town. Should I ....

A. Title the Articles Nagiso and Nakatsugawa and divide See, Eat, Do and Sleep into two sections (one for the post towns, one for the more populous part

B. Title the articles Tsumago and Magome and make Seperate Nagiso and Nakatsugawa articles.

Thank you! Tai123.123 (talk) 00:00, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I think I understand correctly that Tsumago is a town in the larger city of Nagiso and Magome is a town in the larger city of Nakatsugawa. Are these cities that are more like subprefectures and contain a bunch of different towns within them, or are Tsumago and Magome more like neighborhoods in, say, Tokyo? Would there be anything to list in the larger cities that isn't contained within Tsumago or Magome? Keep in mind, there is also another solution, which is to have Nagiso and Nakatsugawa article and make Nagiso and Magome redirects to them, but the ultimate criterion is the traveller comes first - we should do whatever is most useful for people who might visit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes tsumago is in the larger city of Nagiso and Tsumago is in Nakatsugawa.

I feel Tsumago and Magome are not like neighbourhoods as access from the city centre requires travel through more rural areas (look on google streetview), yes there are attractions in Nakatsugawa/Nagiso not in Tsumago/Magome. Finally both lonely planet and japan guide list Tsumago and Magome as their own towns Tai123.123 (talk) 00:45, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Also Nakatsugawa administers a large area (676.45 km² /261.18 sq mi) and Nagiso does also (215.93 km² (83.37 sq mi)) Tai123.123 (talk) 00:46, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd say make separate articles however it seems most reasonable to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:09, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

WikiSP Annual Plan

Hi @Ikan Kekek, I'd like to invite you to propose your ideas for the next annual plan of the group; next year we want to support non-Spanish speaking projects and it would be excellent if you could participate in its structure. Regards, Galahad (sasageyo!)^(esvoy) 02:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Hola, Galahad! I'd like to throw this open to anyone reading to suggest a project. Galahad, please remind me what projects you all worked on. I'm unsure what is possible. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:01, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Last year we landed the Spanish Wikivoyage contest, on february the Wikivoyage + Wikinews contest, on july Spanish Wikivoyage edit-a-thon, august an investigation of spanish small projects and on october we'll land an conversatorium about small projects. Whenever you are ready, please put your ideas on subpage on wikisp. Regards, Galahad (sasageyo!)^(esvoy) 02:05, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

An edit-a-thon on one or more Spanish-speaking countries might be a very good idea. We can discuss this in the pub and get back to you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:01, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Currently Ground Zero is working on Mexican articles, but an edit-a-thon would definitely help the long neglected articles (a lot of them are particularly Latin American countries minus Brazil). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:07, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

I am working on Mexico articles by adding info from other Wikivoyages and from Wikipedia, by other editors would find info from other sources, so I don't see harm in putting forward Mexico as a project. Ground Zero (talk) 11:47, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Since I got a bunch of conflicting suggestions in the pub, I'm tempted to present them to these folks and ask for their opinions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:10, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the delay, Galahad. Where would be the best place for me to start a discussion with your colleagues, based on the feedback I got in the Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub#Edit-a-thon for one or more Spanish-speaking countries? thread? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:56, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. You can put your ideas on https://wikisp.org/wiki/Pub or subpage in your userspace. The Administrative Commission approved the contest focused on latam, so you can help us to structure better the contest. Regards, Galahad (sasageyo!)^(esvoy) 21:24, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:57, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Glad to see New Yorker and musician

I live in South Brooklyn, that why I've a lot of NYC Subway photos before covid era. I hope they are good for article. Actually it's headache to upload video in commons via some third party product. Also, in Russian WIKIpedia, I am editing spoken article, do you need the same for wikivoyage? GK tramrunner RU (talk) 01:34, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

That's great that you're doing spoken versions of articles! I don't believe we've done any. It might be worth discussing the idea in the Travellers' pub. Subway photos are OK to add where relevant, sure, though I don't know how many. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:38, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

It would be a good step as part of Wikiblind where not everybody who is vision impaired has access to page reading technologies. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:44, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Single-terminal airports

The discussion has now been archived, but your statement that "Single-terminal airports never get their own article on this site" raised my curiosity. Please see Beijing Daxing International Airport and "Inside Beijing’s new Daxing airport, the world’s largest single terminal". Nelson Ricardo 2500 (talk) 01:52, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

There are super rare cases of that, but this looks like a tiny airport. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:54, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Nelson. That's the exception that proves the rule. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:17, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Can I delete stay safe

I finished editing the Tsumago-Magome trail article and the stay safe section is empty, can i delete stay safe as there are no safety concerns (its a short hike in a very safe nation). The region template article says it can be omitted however itinerary template doesn't say this. Tai123.123 (talk) 04:27, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Not really advised. If you can't find any issues, try to nitpick on the smallest of the smallest (like issues with storms) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:30, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

ok, I mention the weather and bears in prepare, should i repeat that info in Stay Safe Tai123.123 (talk) 04:42, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

If it's a concern, then yeah, mention it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:47, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Bello

Without revealing too much details openly, it seems they were triggering EF12 when trying to make an edit to Hausa phrasebook. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:12, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

OK, I don't really see why, but I guess it's an interlingual bug. Thanks for explaining. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:45, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh no, I think I see the problem. That really needs to be remedied. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:47, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Yep. Although I don't want to be the one who takes unilateral action. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:25, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I am trying to check, took one action right away. –LPfi (talk) 11:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Giving up. –LPfi (talk) 12:28, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I've tried to analyse into seeing what went wrong with the filter, and I can't really see any reason why EF12 is preventing the edit. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:43, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I think it's a scunthorpe problem, with "assalamu" being treated as an obscenity. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:05, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes. Assam is treated the same, as I mentioned there. But there are too many problems of the same type to just have that one expression fixed. –LPfi (talk) 16:52, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Stub phrasebooks

Do they usually get listed at Phrasebooks or do they need to be an outline to be listed there? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:56, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there's an established practice, but it makes sense to me to list a stub there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:58, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

I modified {{phrasebook-status}} so it can accomodate stubs too, but you'd think it needs a mention at the top of the page (there's already one for outline, usable and so on)? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:03, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to try sleeping more after I finish posting a message in the pub. I fully trust your judgment on this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:13, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Waypoints for walks...

The links to waypoint files were added to London on foot, after I asked about waypoints on the original topic's authors user talk page.

If Google can't be used for these fair enough (It is a proprietary platform, and I'd have strong reservations about waypoints being tied to a specfic proprietary map-platform anyway). Is there was a suitable "free" (GNU sense) replacement for these that was widely supported on mobile devices or tablets?

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:06, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Have a look at Wikivoyage:How to use dynamic maps. Whether Wikimedia/OpenStreet maps are widely supported on mobile devices or tablets, I don't know, and the entire contents of your message might be worth discussing at Wikivoyage talk:Map, where people who are much more technically savvy than I may have things to say. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:25, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you!

	The Wikivoyage Barncompass
	I recently pasted 500 edits and would like to give you this Barncompass to thank you for helping me learn how to edit this site and for always quickly responding to my questions on your talk page. --Tai123.123 (talk) 04:39, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Tai123.123 (talk) 04:39, 11 September 2021 (UTC) Tai123.123 (talk) 04:43, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm not sure I deserve this, but I do my best to help when I have the time. Thanks for contributing so much content! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:39, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Ikan, don't beat yourself. I'm sure you've done a great job in helping new users out (myself included). After all, you've got the highest amount of edits here (who is not a bot since Traveler100bot has more edits) and IMHO definitely deserved. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:48, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

It's overly dramatic to suggest I beat myself, hahaha. But I'm glad I've helped. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:23, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh well... Hope you reach your 100000th soon though :) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:56, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not counting and I'm a bit embarrassed that I've spent so much time on something that can never make me any money, but I usually enjoy this volunteer work. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Well... I'm quite embarrassed that out of my 20000 edits in 7 months, I too have been editing too much. But x tools says that about 10% of my edits are from that Correct typos in a click which explains it all. And for the other hand, I haven't been inside a car ever since I got adminship, because of lockdown. (yep, I've spent three months in lockdown now :() which explains why I got so much edits quickly SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh and there is a former commons admin who had a little more than 1,000,000 edits (c:User:INeverCry) although he's now WMF banned. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:23, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Hell, do anything you like to pass the time while you're in lockdown. Goodness knows, I had a lot of time to kill for most of the last year and a half! Where did that fellow have all those edits? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:24, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Well... lockdown isn't so great when you're an outdoor person. This annoys me more, given that I can't go for a walk in my nearby lake because it's 5.2 km out of my 5 km radius. I miss those days when I lived in a small rural town (which never was affected by Covid) :( At least building a travel guide gives me hope for the future. (and I hope my fourth holiday doesn't get canceled in a period of 12 months) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

They're really not letting people walk on the streets? That's stupid. Walking outside is good. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

You can walk in your local streets... but I prefer the greenery (you can never be too far from greenery in Sydney. Not like Singapore, but still very green). There used to be a bushwalking trail near me although they've cut it down and they're building something there (which I have no idea about and I was never consulted about this)

If you know of the North and South Island rivalry in New Zealand (or the Singapore-KL rivalry), it's a similar thing with Sydney with North and East against South, West and Central. Except that this was taken to a political level as well. East has more cases, all the politicians live in the North, and some parts of the Center have zero cases. Yet we're put under harsher lockdowns. I sadly happen to live in the Center. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:06, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh and I should also mention that a former PM got fined for not wearing a mask. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:12, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@SHB2000 What is the reputation around Bankstown, I've been watching some aussie reality TV as of late and there is a contestant from bankstown and everyone when else reacts like it's amazing one can survive in bankstown why is this? Tai123.123 (talk) 17:32, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Bankstown has quite a terrible reputation. Some claim "it has too many eshays", otherwise there's a high amount of crime and lawbreakers there. I would never visit Bankstown alone, and to be frank, I've visited Bankstown only about three times. To why it has such a reputation? Not sure. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:17, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Is there a reason why Bankstown doesn't redirect to Sydmey/South, could i make that a redirect Tai123.123 (talk) 23:31, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Sorry i meant south-west Tai123.123 (talk) 23:32, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

And to INC, I found this floating around... Although I think he's the only user with a million edits to be WMF banned. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:45, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek As I gave it to you I definitely think your deserving of this award, I would probably be alot less active if there wasn't such a community around this website and I feel you are kind of at the centre of the community and I'm thankful for that. Tai123.123 (talk) 17:30, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

You're welcome. Thanks for being here! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:32, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

commons

Just wondering... but why do the editors on commons get offended easily and are pretty defensive? Just asking because both of us have been taken to ANU before for such small issues. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:49, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

As we say in Yiddish, ver veis (who knows)? It's not worth worrying about. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:55, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Nothing worth worrying about....., but y'know. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:44, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Please help me in this ridiculous deletion request on commons. I'm lost for words here (the file is used on numerous pages here on Wikivoyage). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:38, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Amazing, but it looks like this is being handled. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:25, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

The nominator got blocked as vandal in five days after account creation. I believe that is how things are supposed to work. –LPfi (talk) 11:52, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Noticed then. I guess this wasn't obvious vandalism. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:02, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Any mistake can be made once by anybody, but when the number grows, you draw your conclusions. New users engaging in policing should raise an alarm, but it is not forbidden. –LPfi (talk) 12:54, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Redang Island

Is it significantly different to the rest of Terengganu? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:18, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I haven't been to Redang, but I have been to Pulau Kapas. Any island that features resorts catering largely to non-Muslim foreigners is very different from the great majority of the rest of the state, which is on the mainland. The counterpoint would be that it's the islands that most foreigners from outside Southeast Asia are drawn to, so take that for what it's worth. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:30, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Makes sense now. Thanks for the clarification :-) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:33, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

My talk page protection

If it concerns you, see Wikivoyage talk:Administrators, for my reasoning to that long protection. Thanks! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:49, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Undo

Hi Ikan, can I ask you why you did this? Thanks, Brycehughes (talk) 22:05, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Wait, I guess you labeled it as an undo but really just switched the parameter order? I guess you just mis-summarized then. Brycehughes (talk) 22:08, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I could have edited the summary. Basically, I undid your edit to keep the fields in normal order and then moved only the URL to the right place. Sorry for causing confusion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:10, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

No worries, thanks. Brycehughes (talk) 22:51, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Userpage of concern

Have a look at User:Gentenaar (I'm deliberately not linking it so I don't ping that user). Are those types of userpages allowed? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:52, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

It also seems they're disruptive on the Swedish Wikivoyage. I just tagged one of their pages for deletion. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:03, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Odd user page. It says it was imported from the other site, but it was created recently, not by import. Usually non-users should not create user pages, and this user has no contributions over here, apart from the user page. Of course, he might contribute later, and then knowing from where he comes is good. It is not too uncommon to create a user page in anticipation of contributing. –LPfi (talk) 11:11, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm still concerned when they created a page on sv.voy with only the letter "n" in it. I'm not sure whether WV:DENY applies here, because this seems like an odd case (being an admin on nl.WT, but vandalising on a sister project). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:33, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

LPfi, you were right to delete the "imported" template, of course. Otherwise, let's see what Genenaar does here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:11, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

They also appear to be a nl.voy crat as well, albeit only having 300 edits there. This user has got me puzzled. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:58, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Benno salahgaul IP user

Which one is it? You mentioned "You are undoubtedly the same user as the IP user, so this is your second infraction", but I'm not sure which IP you're talking about. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:16, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

User:110.138.210.73. See the history of Sukamade. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:13, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks :) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:18, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Humourous

As I understand it, "humorous" is derived from the Latin "humor", rather than the English "humour", or something like that. Ground Zero (talk) 09:43, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

I thought those were the same word.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:43, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Interestingly, I've also fell for the same as well. We spell "humorous" in Australia but thought "humourous" was British spelling. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:50, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

rollbacks

What were these two rollbacks about? That's not Brendan. I've known this IP user (always edits under a 144.xx IP) for some time as they contribute to a lot of Pacific language wikipedias. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 03:32, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

I figured it was Brendan because it doesn't make much sense to classify French, still less Spanish, as Pacific Island languages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:17, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

I've known this IP user for some time though, and what more, this IP communicated with me meaning this IP is definitely not Brendan (there was however, another Brendan edit on Coolum though, which was just a few minutes after this IP stopped editing). I suppose French could be considered a Pacific language given that it's spoken in New Cal and French Polynesia, but I definitely agree Timor is not in the Pacific. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:22, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

If French is characterized as a regional language, the Pacific wouldn't be close to the #1 region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:54, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

To be honest, this IP has somewhat given the idea to categorise languages into region. If a certain language is spoken in two regions, it can certainly be categorized into all of the regions on where its spoken (such as espangol or even Yiddish). The only issue with that though, is does northern Australia count as the Pacific (this isn't the outback though)? I might try and do something similar to what we do for our topics and itineraries, but would need to make an announcement in the pub first, after designing a template similar to {{PartOfTopic}} or {{PartOfItinerary}} SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:49, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Regions can't be breadcrumbed more than one place, so why can languages have more than one category? Also, why do we want them to? French is a world language. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:06, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

It's categorised into every continent its spoken in. But mainly, the reason for doing so is for organisation, as it's impossible to tell which language is spoken where by just looking at Category:Phrasebooks. It doesn't change the breadcrumb hierarchy though, only the category structure (which is not viewable to readers) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:19, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

We use categories very sparingly on Wikivoyage, more or less only for maintenance, so the category logic of Wikipedias or Commons does not apply. Usually categories here are added through the breadcrumb system. If they are to be used in other ways there should be some specific and explicit reason. Where a language is spoken should be told in the phrasebook and in the country (or region) guides; the category system is too imprecise for that purpose (and hidden to readers!). –LPfi (talk) 09:33, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Can we please delete all the geographic categories for phrasebooks now? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:38, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

We actually do use categories for articles, and these incomplete phrasebook categories would fall into the example after community consensus. For example, Wine Regions of Ontario is basically categorised into Category:Topics in Canada, the same way it's categorised into Category:Alcoholic beverages. These under-construction categories work the same way. So technically French is categorised into five categories, for the five continents its spoken in + the overloaded unreadable Category:Phrasebooks.

And to "we please delete all the geographic categories for phrasebooks now", the answer is no, since it needs to go via the VFD process, unless it meets WV:CSD. While we did delete, Category:Jokes, that was pure trolling and spam so technically we were able to do it, but deleting these categories without going via the VFD process is an abuse of tools. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:54, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't think everything that's unilaterally created needs to be nominated for deletion to be deleted, but fine, we'll have to have a debate about this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:57, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

WikiSP Newsletter #04 (2021-10)

WikiSP Newsletter of October 2021.

Members

Sargento de Hierro • SHB2000 • Ybsen lucero • JOAN

New election board members

Hasley • Hispano76

News on complementary policies or changes to the Foundational Text

• The electoral policy was approved; this allows the members of the group to decide the members of the different components or to choose the General Coordinator.

Ongoing discussions

• A vote to approve the Code of Conduct is in progress.
• The Administrative Commission is the most important component of the group as the substantive decisions emanate from there. Elections for the Administrative Commission have begun. The election commissioners will send a message to all those eligible to register as candidates and/or electors.

Miscellaneous

• After two years, we have finally been recognized! An announcement has been made, which is also summarized in this Spanish Wikinews article.
• Episodes one and two of SuenaWiki Reloaded, a space that allows to talk about the projects of the Wikimedia movement and free knowledge globally, can be listened to through Wikimedia Commons.

---

• • • •

02:14, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Special:Diff/4309235 on Oceania

I removed that statement as it was confusing, but technically, there's no land border in Oceania today. There's a land border with Asia (which is the pg/id border), but that's not a land border within Oceania.

I'll keep this brief, as this is politically controversial, before the Indonesian province of Papua [chose to join]* Indonesia, it used to be part of Oceania and the entire island of New Guinea was part of Oceania. But ever since the 60s where the western half of the island [voted to join]* Indonesia, that region has become part of Asia. However, on the other hand, when Papua New Guinea gained independence from Australia, it remained as part of Oceania. (and that was the only time where Australia had a land border).

And those asterisks: Papua wasn't willing to join Indonesia, but rather both the Australian and Indonesian governments forced them to and so called it a "vote". But the majority of those who live in Papua want independence, so if Papua were to ever become independent, it'd be considered to be part of Oceania. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:30, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

OK, yeah, I misread what the land border meant in that context. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:19, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah this history is not well known unless you're interested in SSE Asian history. A lot of people think that this area was solely controlled by the British, and its their fault for Papua having to go join Indonesia, but in actual fact it was the Australian government who forced them to. (source) It's a similar reason why so many people think that PNG and Nauru were gained independence by the British, but in actual fact it was Australia who they gained independence from. (hence why there's still detention centres in w:Manus Island and Nauru) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:49, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

I'll remind you that I used to live in Malaysia, and I also have a longstanding interest in geography and history. I'm well aware of the sham "referendum" held in former Dutch New Guinea in 1969. However, I don't see how Indonesia's occupation of West Papua causes it to change geographical region. I guess sort of, politically, maybe. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:24, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah when I meant SSE I usually mean anything east of Java (but not including Java) which includes Timor as well. But yeah I think politically it does, although not geographically. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:31, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not really in disagreement with you, but I'm thinking that it wouldn't be farfetched for PNG to join ASEAN, and if it did, I don't think we'd have to move it to Southeast Asia. Also, East Timor is included in Southeast Asia but is not an ASEAN member. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:39, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Timor is often ambiguous whether its part of Oceania or Asia. The also the issue there is that Timor isn't fully connected, and there's a small segment of it fully surrounded by Indonesia, so it's really unusual to go from Asia and head further away from the Oceanian mainland to go to one section of Oceania. The WWF says that Timor (+ the eastern islands of Indonesia) is part of Australasia, but then Australasia doesn't include much of Polynesia and Micronesia.

Economically speaking, Timor's biggest influence is of course its neighbouring Australia (given Timor doesn't get along with Indonesia well), hence why it's sometimes considered Oceania. It's a similar reason why Oceania doesn't have a one certain Seven Summit. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:03, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Snowy Mountains Hydroelectric Scheme

Sorry for not replying earlier, as I needed to get some sleep. As far as I know, that scheme did bring a lot of migrants from the US as well, albeit not much compared to Europe though merely because the wages in the US in the 50s were still much much lower than those of Australia's (and it still is), hence why a lot of people migrated. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:23, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Got it. I think the note is phrased more clearly now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:30, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I should have wrote that note more clearly. Thanks for picking that up. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:35, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Sure thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:53, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Latin Oratorios

To my knowledge, baroque oratorios from Venice were mostly in Latin, though I could be wrong on this. Vivladi's only surviving oratorio, Juditha Triumphans, is in Latin though. The dog2 (talk) 19:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

OK, but I think it's clear that a majority of oratorios are in vernacular languages. We could specify that many early oratorios are in Latin. I'll edit the text. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:56, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Deleting Pages

Do you mind when I @you to delete a page as I can't delete them as I'm not an admin, if you find them bothersome I will stop Tai123.123 (talk) 04:59, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Tai123.123, you can nominate pages you think should be deleted for deletion and tag them with vfd, or if the page is obviously vandalism, a test, something created by mistake etc. you can tag it with the speedy delete tag and any admin can take care of it. --Ypsilon (talk) 05:09, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I know that I just feel I get a faster response if I @ an admin. (SHB said they're fine with it so I will continue to @ them if Ikan is bothered by it) Tai123.123 (talk) 05:13, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I totally don't mind, but I'm not always around to help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:14, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for not minding. I do also tag them with {{Speedy}} so other admins can see them. (Hopefully one day I will become an admin so I can delete them myself) Tai123.123 (talk) 05:22, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Ideally I would, but I've been busy IRL this week, and so I've not been as active as you may have seen me before. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:28, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Tai123.123, would you like to be a patroller? That would give you the power to rollback a series of edits. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:45, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I made them a patroller a month ago. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:48, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

OK, cool. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:03, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I have also had template editor for a bit, the only extra thing that I want is the power to delete pages so I don't have to @ you guys (I feel patrollers should be able to delete pages with less than 5 edits and are younger than 24 hours) Tai123.123 (talk) 04:13, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Tai123.123: Some wikis such as ruwiki or viwiki have an "eliminator" group that can do such (but they can delete all pages). Unfortunately enwikivoyage is not big of a wiki to have that sort of group yet. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:51, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

WikiSP Newsletter #05 (2021-11)

WikiSP Newsletter of November 2021.

Members

-sasha-

News on complementary policies or changes to the Foundational Text

• Six days left to sanction the Code of Conduct. If you are an active member, you can go and exercise your vote.

Tech news

• We have implemented three new instances: Limesurvey, Moodle and MediaWiki. The first will be for conducting surveys to be sent to volunteers, the second for a future educational program and the third for testing on MediaWiki.
• As you know, this group offers permanent connection to Libera.Chat through its bouncer service. Now the requests are processed via Phabricator to make it easier for volunteers to access this service.

Miscellaneous

• On October 29, we requested a general support fund so that our mission can continue uninterrupted. We hope that the Latin America and Caribbean Committee will look favorably on our proposal to support small projects.
• We need your feedback: Help us to focus our efforts to support small projects in the coming year. We want you to tell us what we can support and in what ways we should support them. The survey will run for thirty days, until December 03. The survey link is here.
• The results of the Admincom's temporary seats will be announced on November 8.
• From November 09 to 10 we will have a edit-a-thon at Wikiviajes. There we will edit as many destinations as possible.
• On November 16th we will have the Allie Awards; a virtual award in which we recognize the excellence, initiative and activism of volunteers in the Wikimedia movement. You as a volunteer can nominate who you consider deserving of such an award. You only have to ping Galahad with the name and the reason why he/she deserves to be recognized. You have the opportunity to nominate until November 8.
• On November 17th we will be supporting the friends of WikiAcción Perú and the Cámara de Comercio de San Martín in the Wikiviajes workshop on the region of San Martín. If you want to participate, you can write us through hello<at>wikisp.org.

---

• • • •

00:48, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Ikan, the survey and the Allie Awards can be of your interest. Regards, --Galahad (sasageyo!)^(esvoy) 15:49, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Question

there is special people who edit this page? 197.250.101.200 09:24, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:29, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

The question coming from the IP looks like a PA to me. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:35, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

What is a "PA"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:45, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Personal attack. I'm judging that on the fact that the tone of the IP's comment looks as though they were surprised or shocked. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:48, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh. Whatever, it's totally unclear. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:49, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Notice of discussion on Wikidata

Hi Ikan, if possible, could you please comment on d:Talk:Q132931, in which this is something about your (and my) actions on Wikidata about removing three deleted articles, in relation to apparently what AC calls "page deletion vandalism". Thanks! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:01, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

I have nothing to add to what you said, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:28, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

But thanks for replying on DerFussi's talk page though. If he goes on like this, might go to ANU. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:16, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

That guy is really a glutton for punishment. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:43, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Now he thinks I don't know anything about how deleting pages work, and I should have gone thru the long {{vfd}} process for an obvious case that's him block evading under three IPs. I'd wish that guy stopped stalking us, or may as well go to AN on Wikidata about his lack of civility. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:52, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Go ahead and nominate him for a global block. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:55, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

I can't do that, at least not yet because he needs to be indef blocked on two or more projects for that, but I believe SelfieCity already had that idea on that (see Special:Diff/4256974), but if he does get banned on Wikidata for continuous personal attacks and harassment, then... SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:03, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Got it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:20, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

A teeny tiny edit request

Hi Ikan, I don't think this deserves a discussion to change, but I don't have the rights to edit MediaWiki namespace myself, so hence I am asking you: Adding a docent to an article creates the tab of the same name in the sidebar, but the perfectionist in me is bothered by the fact that that tab's heading is completely in lowercase, whereas other tabs have their first letter capitalised. I believe that you should have the right rights, so could you please edit Insider-title, capitalising the D in "docents" as to fix this? Thank you in advance.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 23:57, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Would this require you to be a template editor? If so, I'd be happy to make you one. I'm not experienced in making this kind of edit, but I could have a quick look and see if I can figure it out. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:59, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Actually, I just checked, and any user can edit that page. I'd want to see it in action to see how capitalizing it would change things, but you should feel free to just edit it as you see fit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:02, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

I already am a template editor. That only gives me access to the Template namespace though. MediaWiki is yet another level above that, and I believe only bureaucrats can edit it. The page I linked is where the extension that adds docents to the sidebar sees what it should put in the sidebar's heading. It should be quite a straight-forward edit.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 00:02, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Are you sure you can't edit it? If you definitely can't, sure, I'll make the edit, but I'd like to know, because when I click the "Protect" tab, it's showing me that all users can edit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:04, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

It only allows me to see the source code, so I really can't edit it. That would mean that either Template editors lose their ability to edit MediaWiki namespace, or, more likely, that MediaWiki is hard-locked for bureaucrats only, since that's where some of the site's main elements are stored (logo, disclaimer, sidebar, navigation bar, et cetera).
-- Wauteurz (talk) 00:07, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

That's really weird. OK, sorry for all this discussion and I will make the edit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:37, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, and no worries about the discussion. Be as sceptical as you'd like, I consider that a good thing. -- Wauteurz (talk) 11:31, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

I've edited the MediaWiki namespace before, so maybe minimum admins only? AFAIK, most MediaWiki elements that are usually json or css pages are also locked for me, but that'll need an interface admin or a global interface editor. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:45, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

[edit conflict] I suppose the protect tab only shows any page specific protection. My understanding is that the wikimedia namespace is protected across all projects, requiring admin (not bureaucrat) privileges. There are also pages that require interface editor rights, such as MediaWiki:Common.css. –LPfi (talk) 12:51, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Audio files

Hello Ikan, I was not aware about the media file policy enforced in en.wikivoyage. As personal opinion, I believe that this policy has a good sense in preventing useful information to be "hidden" in audio or video files and lacking in the text, on the other hand the technology has evolved a lot since wikivoyage was born and nowardays it's fairly common that someone uses wikivoyage from its smart-device rather than printing pages before leaving home, the opportunity to have a talking voice giving a summary of a stage would add flexibility and appealing to wikivoyage. Anyway, as I told, I'm not going to stand up against the policy. Best regards. Ysogo. --Ysogo (talk) 21:25, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Ysogo. I'd welcome your restarting discussion about this policy at Wikivoyage talk:External links if you like, as your arguments make sense and might be considered. I don't commit to taking a position one way or the other but would consider any arguments made in the thread. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:05, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

A quick question

Hi Ikan and The dog2

A question on Bahasa Melayu, as my knowledge of Malay is limited to a couple of words. But does the word pulu, have the same meaning as pulau? Found it in this image (on the right), but would like to double check before starting a Pulu Cocos National Park article. I've never seen "pulau" being shortened to "pulu", but maybe it's Australian Malay, but not too sure hence why I'm asking. Asking you both because you both are the only two active here who know some Malay. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:26, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I've never heard of the word "pulu", but maybe a native Malay speaker like Chongkian will know better. The dog2 (talk) 10:29, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

That must be a local pronunciation there. That wouldn't be surprising, and as a matter of fact, the spelling for both Rumi spellings, pulau and pulu, would have been the same in Jawi (Arabic-based script). Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:22, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I have double check locally and with some people. All of them agreed that pulu is not/never be part of the official words in Malaysia's Malay dictionary. So it looks like it is the local (official/widely used) dialect/variant of Malay language used in Coco Island of Australia. Not sure if Malay language has the official status (thus officially documented locally in their dictionary) in Coco Island or Australia. Chongkian (talk) 02:04, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

@Chongkian AFAIK, it probably doesn't, because even English does not have an official status in Australia (Australia has no official language) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 03:12, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Alcohol in Iran

Given your recent edits, you may be interested in this comment made by a guide in Iran after explaining that Armenians are allowed to have wine because it is part of their religious practice, "so every Iranian has an Armenian friend". Ground Zero (talk) 03:44, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

That's not very surprising. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:37, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Mjvdz98

re your message on User talk:Mjvdz98. It's likely the same person as Mvdz1998. Look at the similarities in usernames. One has an extra j in it and the other has an extra 19 in it and both only really edited London on foot. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:05, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

That makes sense. Doesn't really matter much in terms of my posts, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:58, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

The hat depicted in File:Tasmania banner 3.jpg

To answer your question on Talk:Tasmania#Banner, that's a classic rural Australian style hat known as the akubra hat, particularly worn by farmers and those that live in the bush (i.e. inland Australia) and South Australia (I don't know why, but The dog2 may know as they've lived in SA before). It's not widely worn on the coast, but the trend of wearing akubras is increasing. However, I have no idea whether it's worn in Tasmania or not, because simply, I've never been there. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:42, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Got it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:44, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Israeli citizenship for Jews

Doesn't Israel have a "Law of Return" or something of a similar name saying that all Jews are automatically eligible to make Aliyah? Of course, you have to meet the Orthodox definition, which means you need to either have a Jewish mother, or have undergone an Orthodox conversion, meaning that the Chinese Jews are not eligible because they recognise patrilineal instead of matrilineal descent. The dog2 (talk) 20:51, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, there is a Law of Return. It does not make non-citizen Jews citizens of Israel without their having applied for citizenship. It also does not require matrilineal descent and applies to people for whom only one grandparent was Jewish - except when it doesn't. It's not simple, but in no way does it make all Jews automatically citizens with no action on their part. Please don't make these kinds of edits based on a lack of expertise. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:17, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I remember there is a controversy because there were a bunch of Kaifeng Jews from China who made Aliyah some years back, but because they traditionally recognised patrilineal instead of matrilineal descent, the Israeli government refused to recognise them as Jews, and they had to undergo the Orthodox conversion process before they were allowed to make Aliyah. Do you know why that was the case then? The dog2 (talk) 21:47, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

The dog2, the real issue here is why you would post important information like this without checking it first. These things are easy to check online, so there isn't any reason to post misinformation. We all make mistakes from time to time, but the frequency with which you post wrong things that you could have checked concerns me. Ground Zero (talk) 21:52, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't know why Jews from Ethiopia and China have to undergo conversions, whereas Orthodox Christians from the former Soviet Union with one grandfather who was Jewish were let in under the Law of Return without any issue. Why don't you do some research to find out how Israeli domestic politics drives such inconsistencies? But don't post about it in our travel articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:05, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

"program" in Australia

From what I know "program" is the only spelling found in Australia and finding "programme" is very rare, with the exception of "programme" in proper nouns, mostly in UN programs as the UN uses UK Oxford spelling. There's a couple of other cases out there too, such as w:The Micallef P(r)ogram(me) (quite a humorous one) and sometimes the Landcare Programme (although the government uses "program"). But yeah, that IP on Melbourne was just me logged out and finding the British "programme" is almost nonexistent nowadays. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:16, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I saw your edit summary in the article in question. I reverted you only because you were logged out and I didn't see a reason to trust an IP account that made that kind of edit without an explanatory edit summary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:21, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I've used the edit summary "spelling" quite a lot when a British and/or American spelling is used on an Australian article although I do sometimes use a full edit summary such as this one, also on that very same article or this one to Australia. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:30, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

And when you're not an IP, I wouldn't second-guess your spelling edits. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:32, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

maps creations

Do you know how to create this type of maps (colorcoding)? https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Delhi#/map/0/11/28.5770/77.2133 It would be helpful if you could provide me links on how to make this 2006nishan178713 (talk) 19:39, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I never learned how to make maps, sorry. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:03, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@2006nishan178713 I'll explain it on your talk page. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:06, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Regarding this

Guadeloupe is a French overseas territory, meaning they're technically part of the EU, and the EU mandates British English. So, the answer to your question is a yes. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia)

Officially. But what English-speaking countries normally send the most tourists there? I doubt the British Isles are as well represented there as the U.S. or Canada. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:48, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I also remember seeing British spellings like travelling and centre when doing research to write Guadeloupe National Park. So not US spelling but it could also be Canadian spelling. (major difference is the -yze endings) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:56, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

OK. Yeah, hard to determine the difference. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:11, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Qanaaq Article

Halló, vinur! I happened too notice we both edited articles in the Great White North. Good friends, we will become. SealEater1488 (talk) 03:40, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, nice to meet you, and welcome! I haven't been to the Arctic (a few amazing overflights and a brief stop in Anchorage on New York - Anchorage - Seoul flight, don't count); I just copy edit lots of articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:28, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

	Merry Christmas
	This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year in advance! 2006nishan178713 (talk) 19:45, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Merry Christmas to you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:13, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Merry Christmas Ikan :) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:16, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Same to you. I hope we have no pandemic next Christmas. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:18, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, it's the very first Christmas where I'm alone rather than visiting family and friends or out camping. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:21, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

It's the second Christmas in a row when I have no gigs. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:28, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I am in my home as well. Last year I went out camping but this time there are no plans. Will visit the church in the evening.
FACT: Cooch Behar has only one church. 2006nishan178713 (talk) 05:39, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Guess I'm not alone then. Usually most people don't go to church here for Christmas as most Australians are irreligious (including myself) or claim they follow a religion but never actually follow the religion. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:52, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Here in India, most of the people visit the church as it is just a tradition to go there. People irrespective of their religion visit the church during Christmas. I am not a Christian but I enjoy Christmas as most of the people do. It's always fun and joy during Christmas. :) 2006nishan178713 (talk) 06:05, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I was once in Kerala during Christmas, and I was quite surprised that the churches were full because I'd never seen that many go to church during Christmas in Australia (even those who are Christians). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:10, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

It must be fun. I'll be online in a few hours. I need to complete my assignments. Bye!😁 2006nishan178713 (talk) 06:21, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

My girlfriend will go to church, as her church is still having Mass, but many churches are not, and I normally go to church only to hear or play a concert, except now and then when my girlfriend's choir is singing a mass I particularly want to hear. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:08, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Have Fun!! 2006nishan178713 (talk) 08:12, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

I hope you do. I expect the day to pass quietly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:15, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Happy Chinese Food Day to you. Ground Zero (talk) 19:47, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Hah! Eating Chinese food is an everyday thing for me. Today, I have leftovers from roast chicken legs and cauliflower/mushrooms-and-cheese I cooked last night. Merry Christmas to you and your husband! Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:08, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

The word "Eskimo"

Could you plese consider removing the word "Eskimo" from all non-American articles? I find that word to be very offensive. Artic natives perfer to be called "First Nations," "Inuit," or "Yupik" depending on how far north they are. SealEater1488 (talk) 05:09, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

@SealEater1488 Not Ikan here, but I'll make sure to do that when I come across this. You might also want to see a thread started by @Ground Zero: in Wikivoyage talk:Canada Expedition#Indigenous people, Aboriginals, First Nations people, Natives, Indians, Inuit, Eskimoes and Metis which seems to be what we use on this site although it's not always followed. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:13, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

SealEater1488, please keep in mind that this is a site that anyone can edit, so if you see any offensive words, please remove or substitute appropriately for them, except in "Respect" sections of relevant articles, where people should be told not to use the word. I can certainly remove the word, too, if I see it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:05, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

My User Page

Can you ad this picture to my page banner? I trid, but it doesn't work. Warm regards, SealEater1488 (talk) 05:21, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

@SealEater1488 Done SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:29, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Not to make any assumptions here, but I noticed the username on RC and...have some questions. Our username policy is pretty open, but "1488" and "seal eater" in the context of Native Canadians can both be interpreted fairly inappropriately. I'm pretty lax on usernames, but this made me raise an eyebrow. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 06:04, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Removing the word "extermination" from Auschwitz-Birkenau made me raise an eyebrow too. —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:31, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Didn't realize that edit. Ok, so maybe I shouldn't have been too nice. Had no idea what 1488 meant earlier but... --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:28, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

OK, let's not wait any longer. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:34, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Indefblocked. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:35, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

I've speedy archived a thread started by SealEater1488 on my talk to prevent it being a target if the user comes back with future sockpuppets. You might also want to do the same as well. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:47, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Targets of sockpuppets are useful, aren't they? I won't say why, but give that some thought. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:50, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

I can see why. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:58, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Tesleemah and copyvios

I blocked them for 31 hours to get them to read and respond to your messages given to them. I would ideally unblock them once they've confirmed they won't do it again, but I'm travelling overseas to the US tomorrow so I won't be able to do it. Just asking on whether you can unblock them once they've confirmed they won't do it again. Thanks :) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:11, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Sure, whenever I see the message. Travel safe! Where are you visiting during our omicron surge? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:12, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. I'm visiting L.A. to visit family that I haven't seen in years. I probably picked a bad timing, but... SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:15, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I owe my cousin in Venice, CA a visit but won't be going this January. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:17, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Nevertheless, it's nice to see everything open up, making it one step closer to normal life. My friend got to finally see their parents last week after two years of disruptions to the state borders in Q. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:28, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

You may get to see a whole lot of stuff close down. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:34, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Looks like Tesleemah left us... SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:01, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

How do you know? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:39, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

That seemed to be their last edit for some time. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 19:11, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

It's always possible for users to come back later. I hope Tesleemah does. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Thumbnail

Hi @Ikan Kekek: I would be glad if you put me through how to - "add thumbnails, not full-sized photos, and type meaningful captions, not filenames" - images while uploading them to Wikivoyage article. Atibrarian (talk) 07:22, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

If you click on the diff (here or where you saw the edit comment), you see that IK added "|thumb" after the filename, which makes the file a thumbnail, an image of smaller size. Also, you used the filenames as such as captions, while IK edited them to correct case, removed digits etc. You could improve it just looking at the image, such as "Ososo Carnival" → "At the Ososo carnival" or "View of Ososo" → "The Ososo hills". If you know something about the thing the image is depicting (or the description at the file page is good) you could make them more informative, like "A group dressed for the ima uhu dance at the carnival". –LPfi (talk) 10:23, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Ikotun - Egbe Terminal

I still don't get why you deleted the Ikotun - Egbe Terminal I created...it was supposed to be an article on wikivoyage as I was directed.

It's on the list of articles to be edited and I tried doing that.

Maybe the article was poor but I wanted to keep on editing it with more edits.

Kindly provide reasons for the deletion.

JadePhenom (talk) 06:58, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Can you explain what I did wrong that warranted the deletion of my wikivoyage page on Ikotun-Egbe Terminal. I saw it as an article that needed creation on the main page before I created the article and I still wanted to make more edits on it before it was deleted. So what's the reason?

JadePhenom (talk) 07:21, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Sure. Please read Wikivoyage:What is an article#What does not get its own article?. A bus terminal gets listed in the article for the city where it's located. It does not get its own article. Thanks very much, and please let me know if you have any other questions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:43, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

How we will see unregistered users

Hi!

You get this message because you are an admin on a Wikimedia wiki.

When someone edits a Wikimedia wiki without being logged in today, we show their IP address. As you may already know, we will not be able to do this in the future. This is a decision by the Wikimedia Foundation Legal department, because norms and regulations for privacy online have changed.

Instead of the IP we will show a masked identity. You as an admin will still be able to access the IP. There will also be a new user right for those who need to see the full IPs of unregistered users to fight vandalism, harassment and spam without being admins. Patrollers will also see part of the IP even without this user right. We are also working on better tools to help.

If you have not seen it before, you can read more on Meta. If you want to make sure you don’t miss technical changes on the Wikimedia wikis, you can subscribe to the weekly technical newsletter.

We have two suggested ways this identity could work. We would appreciate your feedback on which way you think would work best for you and your wiki, now and in the future. You can let us know on the talk page. You can write in your language. The suggestions were posted in October and we will decide after 17 January.

Thank you. /Johan (WMF)

18:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Is this good?

Is my edit here OK??? Please do not block me. 96.18.219.55 17:18, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Oh,and my user page is a phrasebook/sandbox.96.18.219.55 17:21, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

anons aren't supposed to have userpages. Please create an account. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 19:12, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

IP users have userpages. Your edit is OK to me except that those were racist incidents. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:44, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

How about an RfA on the English Wikipedia?? 96.18.219.55 21:11, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

A what? Anyway, I edit only occasionally on Wikipedia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:18, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

You deleted my user sub-page

My user sub-page is gone!!96.18.219.55 23:29, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

That's the one you wanted deleted, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

A Question.

Can i withdraw Vfd noms? 96.18.219.55 17:09, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Post in the relevant threads that you want to, and let others decide what to do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:46, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Zoo or botanical gardens

Can we write articles about zoo, botanical gardens, museums? Or, do we need to merge them into a certain nearest related article? Haoreima (talk) 11:13, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

See Wikivoyage:What is an article?:

• Museums, statues or other works or institutions of art. World famous institutions like the British Museum, the Louvre or the Smithsonian can have redirects, but most museums should not.

The same goes for zoos and botanical gardens. We commonly refer to the "sleep test": an institution where visitors do not regularly sleep should not have an article (and neither should hotels).

If the institution is complex and interesting enough, we often make a subheading for it, last in the relevant section (such as See in these cases). In most cases, what you'd write about it is more suitable in Wikipedia, and we do include Wikipedia links in the listings (usually using the wikidata= parameter). Those who want to know more about the institution can follow the link and read the Wikipedia article.

For a very special place, say the Louvre or British Museum, one could write a travel topic article. Mostly the listing is enough, or a few paragraphs as a subsection.

–LPfi (talk) 17:03, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Unusual writing systems

[heading added by LPfi]

@Ikan Kekek, LPfi: Please import Module:If_empty from English wikipedia. We need that module for some templates. We need those templates because in some phrasebooks, non Latin scripts are used, which some people don't see in their computer screens! Haoreima (talk) 04:24, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Please make a proposal somewhere. Wikivoyage talk:Template index seems like the most appropriate place, and you could link it in the Travellers' pub. And you should be the one to import the template if it's approved. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:29, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

You seem to be creating non-working templates. Please don't do that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:30, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Oh it's actually because of those non working templates, I was requesting you! The module was necessary to make them working! :-) :-) Haoreima (talk) 05:38, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

How can I import anything even the template is approved for import? I am neither an admin nor an importer! I don't hold any rights here in wikivoyage! Haoreima (talk) 05:31, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, I don't know the ins and outs of that, having never imported anything between Wikis. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:34, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Done Requested at the right place you suggested me! Now, please import! :-) Haoreima (talk) 05:40, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

As prompted by User talk:Haoreima#Illegible notation:

The "gibberish" you are seeing is probably the Unicode code points (in hexadecimal) of the characters in question, as you lack the font for showing them. You shouldn't need any add-on programs, but Microsoft might distribute the fonts in language packs. which might be easier to install than the fonts on their own (and I don't know whether you need some extra modules to use writing systems with combining symbols). Having to install a suitable font for viewing a strange alphabet or writing system is not, I think, anything odd, although with modern storage capacity, distributing fonts for anything included in the current version of Unicode with the operating system is probably feasible. In this case, it might have taken some time to get the system included in Unicode and adding support (constructing a font that works well with the other ones in the system), so needing an update is not too far-fetched.

That said, yes to serve the travellers we need to give good instructions. This is a general problem: how do you add support for an alphabet or writing system not supported on your device out of the box. Last time I looked at it, quite some time ago, I tried to add support for Elvish (Sindarin, I think), and the instructions were quite convoluted or confusing. This should be a standard procedure, but did not seem to be one for end users (easy for out-of-the-box-supported ones, but not for third-party ones – the instructions were developer-level). I hope the situation has improved, and for most writing systems I hope it suffices to point out a suitable language pack or font, and give instructions for installing and taking into use such packages.

–LPfi (talk) 14:12, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Sindelfingen "usable"?

As you know I am not a long time user and I am not sure as how this assessment draws the line. I just wonder if it now qualifies as "guide". I think all the basic requirements are met.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 14:51, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

The relation to Böblingen should be sorted out. Linking it as the first word seems awkward. It looks like the article was written on both of them, but Böblingen then created, creating confusion in the hierarchy. Either merge them or have them as separate entities.

One-liners should be added in the Go next. Otherwise it seems Sindelfingen has the general overview, clear get in and around instructions, different choices and information required for guide, and I don't see any other issues, but I just took a quick look.

–LPfi (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

(As not too seasoned, you might not want to solve the Sindelfingen/Böblingen issue by yourself, but it needs to be solved.) –LPfi (talk) 16:18, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

The part of Böblingen might be in part a copy, when it comes to public transport, road traffic and suggestions where to go to in the area. So I already had in mind to reuse it in part, but on the other hand there is at least as much to say about Böblingen as is to Sindelfingen, probably more. Böblingen has a US military base and Motorworld Region Stuttgart which is also very interesting, different artists, different partner towns, other museums, different events and festivals, other businesses of importance. Böblingen is also Landkreis and this means that it is important over a bigger area than just the city. The city has 50.000, the Landkreis has a 300.000 population. But as you can imagine the last months were not very inviting to do research on hotels, bars and restaurants. I expect that we will see a major restructuring and even during last months some of those went out of business or have new ownership. So there is a long time plan to upgrade Böblingen as well when things have settled. I already have Wikidata items for most of the things of importance and lots of photos to choose from. Some redundancy is unavoidable, but I don´t think it is much of a problem and as soon as Böblingen is upgraded, some parts of Sindelfingen can be cut back. On the other hand, there is enough differences that grant two different articles. And I don´t think it would be wise to have three articles at the moment.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 18:22, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Giftzwerg 88, I would defer to your judgment unless anyone else familiar with the two cities makes counterarguments that seem compelling. LPfi, thanks for having a look at the article and offering an evaluation. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, you seem to have it under control. And IK: my pleasure. –LPfi (talk) 20:08, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Untitled

2A00:23C8:8E90:AE00:B1F5:369F:69D0:1144 is back under the IP 86.169.245.119, who per the duck test is the same user and both are disruptively edit warring and changing things to their preferred version of the article and I've given up assuming good faith. I was wondering if whether a block is needed (if it is, I'll do 2A00:23C8:8E90:AE00:B1F5:369F:69D0:1144 as I have nothing to do with this IP while can you do 86.169.245.119 as you have nothing to do with that IP.) If possible, can you also protect the pages as well? Thanks, --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:14, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

They are the same user! Which I noted on a discussion page (note having different connections is not sockpuppetry)

Also, removing the false information (supported by multiple references) and incorrectly spelled content from SHB2000 is not disruptive. It seems SHB2000 'preferred version of the article' is one with demonstrable incorrect information and incorrect spellings. Also, their comments have been just about the user and not the content.

Yes, please block. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:30, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

For what reason?

Edit warring and trolling, the usual. And I made the block. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I've blocked the IPv6 and restored the last version pre-IP. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:39, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I did some rollbacks, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:47, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Should the pages be protected? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:52, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Grace789

It seems she still does what you and GZ told her not to do, at least, that's what's just happened on Isuofia after she said "noted". Unlike the previous listings or the airport issues, they even inserted a banner which is not in that town. Is there anyway we can get them to stop doing that while getting them to still edit? I don't want to fail again like what I did with Tesleemah who has likely left us at this point in time. (cc @Ground Zero:). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:05, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on online psychology, so how would I know? Give her a warning and then block if necessary; what other alternative is there, unless you want to just closely supervise her edits and leave it at that? I'll defer to you on this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:57, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd give her some latitude, based on the latest exchange on her user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:50, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Vandalism

Hello, Ikan Kekek. I have come to your talk page with an urgent request. An account named Tokyo is a jerk is reprinting the lyrics. Please block it. --Tmv (talk) 09:46, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Blocked. Thank you very much for helping out! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:49, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

small problem

solved, after a long time - please ignore off wiki message, have solved the inner workings of the SUL failure, after a stroke of sheer whatever... trust all is well, back regularly soon... JarrahTree (talk) 01:10, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

All is well. I've avoided catching every wave of COVID so far... Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:35, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello

Hi Ikan, Thanks for commenting on my talk page. I'm so excited to be part of this community. Any tips or advice you can give me about contributing here? Dayton Kingery (talk) 15:54, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Just generally to write about what you know, and also to delete any listings you see for defunct businesses, typing "closed" or something similar in an edit summary you put in the "Summary" box below your edit screen. Most other things can be answered at Wikivoyage:Manual of style and the various links from there. Feel free to ask me questions about anything specific that comes up anytime. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:58, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you!! Dayton Kingery (talk) 16:11, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

I just want to thank you for reviewing my edits and making tweaks. Some people may be bothered by this, but I really appreciate having someone watching over me. Thank you! This is the perfect example of how an experienced editor should mentor new ones. Dayton Kingery (talk) 09:53, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, it does sometimes happen that people object, but this is how collaborative editing should work. Thank you for adding content to articles! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:55, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

IP who created many Italian beach stubs

I blocked the IP from editing mainspace until they respond to the messages given to them. As it's only a partial block, they can still to respond to messages given to them on talk pages, and they can still edit any namespace except for mainspace. If that IP ever discusses with us and I forget to lift their block, could you please lift the mainspace block? Thanks. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:11, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

SHB2000, I'd suggest lifting the block, as that user created no new beach stubs after I asked them to pause. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:26, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I'll do it when I get back home. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:25, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

I took care of it because I thought it was taking too long. I hope that's OK with you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:40, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for doing it :). I was on the train this morning when I wrote I'll do it but now I'm back. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:22, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that IP is now back, but creating stubs about small tiny villages instead :-(. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:06, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

I deleted one copyvio stub, labeled another which has copyvio in the lede and posted a couple of comments that the user probably will not read. If this behavior continues without any reply to their user talk page, we should block for an initial period of 3 days, but let's give them a chance to hopefully read their user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:31, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

If we do have to block them, I think we should just block them from editing mainspace, but I do hope they change their behavior... SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:54, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I never block anyone but spambots and obvious vandals from editing their user talk pages. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:11, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

A namespace block or a partial block is slightly different, as it only prohibits a user from editing certain namespaces, unlike a full block which prevents editing all pages but their user talk. This block on Wikipedia is an example of a namespace block, which prevents them editing all pages in that namespace, but not articles. In this case, their privileges of editing mainspace is restricted, they can still edit pages like Talk:Theriva Beach (Lake Como). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:20, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Oh. I've never done something like that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:22, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I wasn't familiar with that too, until I saw m:User:-revi. It's not commonly done tho. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:31, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

It is an option recently added to MediaWiki, so not that commonly known (a year or two ago? or more – time passes fast nowadays). Even in places like sv-wp it seems there are just some admins using it. –LPfi (talk) 13:06, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

It seems they're back and they've just created Olcio which is a stub. In particular, the "[edit]" text they've added to a section header in Special:Diff/4406492 makes me suspect of some copyright violation. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:13, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

First DuckDuckGo result for the lede is that article. "Go next" is probably copied from another Wikivoyage article, but not really a serious kind of copyright violation. Block with a message if you feel that's warranted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:52, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Hopefully your message may get them to respond, but otherwise I'll file a user ban nomination. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:00, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Please don't. Let's just block them for 3 days as a first block. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:01, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Blocked from editing mainspace. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:05, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

OK with me. I probably would have given them one more chance to read their user talk page, but it's a justified block. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:09, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

It's a partial block so the only edits they cannot make are in articlespace and pages with the "User:" prefixes. If they really wanted to, they could theoretically comment here too if they wished. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:13, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I'll be very surprised if we get any comments, and I predict another block. Meanwhile, I think the newest stubs should be deleted as "no useful content or test." Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:28, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree. In the meantime, expect me to make a proposal to get rid of the "no deleting real places rule" for cases like these. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:30, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

No need. Page creation vandalism is a well-recognized exception. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:31, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

My typos

Thank you for reverting my edits using that tool that were not typos. I will be more careful in using that tool in future. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:35, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Sure thing. It's easy to slip up with foreign-language words in languages you might not be that familiar with. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:46, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

The French one was not tho, because I can speak intermediate French. But unusually, the tool thinks that words like "romanisation" are also "typos" as a typo for romanization. (I use romanization IRL tho, because I've never seen "romanisation" before) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:53, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I have. It's British. Remember, though, I used to live in Malaysia, which uses British spelling except when they use their own words. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:54, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Even in Australia, which mostly follows British spelling, I haven't seen romanisation here before and the first time when I encountered it was when reading Wikipedia articles about Korea, Japan and northern Canada, all of which use -ize spellings (two due to US influence, and the last one due to Oxford influence). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:00, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't remember whether I saw "romanisation" in Malaysia; I was mostly reading about Rumi, the Malay (and originally Arabic) word for Romanized Malay spelling. It's just that seeing "s" where Americans use "z" is not usually strange to me, and it was hard for me to learn that "analyze" is the correct American spelling. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:15, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I had a similar situation with percent. I was taught the one-word spelling, and it's what many of the younger generations use, until I started reading some news articles that used the two-word spelling in it (you'll see some Australian journalism with the one word spelling and others with the two word spelling). It looks weird and plain wrong to me, but it turns out that the two-word spelling was the more common spelling. Regarding the "z" usage, it's not actually incorrect to use the "z" in pretty much any dialect of Commonwealth English except in NZ, and the Oxford Dictionary uses the z since it was the original spelling. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:27, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

You mean for "analyze", specifically, or generally for "-ize" words? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:15, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Just for -ize or -iza words. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:16, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Reversions

Hi Ikan Kekek. Thank you for you reversions. However, I'll need to revert your reversions.

Here is why:

1. (Nagorno-Karabakh) I changed "controlled" to "occupied" as it is in Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh

2. (Turkey) I had changed "Turkey can be considered as part of Europe" to "Turkey is part of Europe". Please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey Even if we stick to the controversial border between the European region and the rest of Eurasia, more than 20% of the population of Turkey resides in Europe. This is around the population of the Netherlands. Why would some call it as "can be called as part of Europe"? You can also find the country here: Europe

3. (Turkey) I deleted the "and Arab minorities" part, because Turkey does not have a sizeable Arab minority. Someone had written this unsourced flawed info. See: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/turkey/, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey

4. (Turkey) What does " Historically inhabited by Armenians" part have to do? Should we also include "Historically inhabited by Turks" to everywhere the Turks had resided? Should we also include "Historically inhabited by Mayans, Aztecs, Incans" in the South American nations' Wikivoyage pages.

All in all, I edited manipulative expressions. As a sign of courtesy, I won't revert your reversions now. I'll wait for a few days to get a reply from you. In case I don't get a reply, I'll make the reversions.

Cheers Alperunsal (talk) 11:27, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Alperunsal. This is not Wikipedia; this is a travel guide. The watchword of this site is the traveller comes first, and the standard of fairness is Wikivoyage:Be fair. We are not bound by choices made in an encyclopedia. Wikivoyage recognizes all relatively stable de facto boundaries and countries, regardless of their international statuses, in the interest of travelers, who need to know which entity to get a visa from.

In terms of Turkey being part of Europe, the truly accurate statement is that part of Turkey is in Europe. I am happy to accept your point that there is no large Arab minority in Turkey, but are you sure that's true, including Iraqi and Syrian refugees now living there? How many millions of those are there?

As for who historically inhabited where, it's certainly relevant to travelers if they left things behind. The Armenians did in many cases, as did the Mayans, Aztecs and Incans (not to mention that the Mayans and the descendants of the Aztecs and Incans are still very much present in the lands their ancestors used to rule), so in general, I would say yes to all. If they didn't, we don't need to mention this in a 1-liner listing, but it would certainly be relevant as part of a brief history in the "Understand" section of an article about a particular region, city or what have you. Do you think, for example, that it's irrelevant to state that Izmir was historically an ethnically mixed city with a longstanding Greek heritage?

I would finally say that discussions about the content of articles are best discussed on the talk pages of those articles, because you and I are not the only editors on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:42, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

A quick interjection: Turkey has about a couple million ethnic Arab citizens (they have traditionally inhabited Çukurova, Hatay, and parts of Southeastern Anatolia, such as Urfa, Mardin, Hasankeyf and Siirt long before the ongoing refugee crisis started), and Wikipedia says they are the second-largest minority group in the country. Vidimian (talk) 11:55, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Vidimian. And lest I might appear to have slighted places where Turks used to live: Yes, that's generally well worth mentioning, too, usually in the context of former Ottoman rule. As both of you know, Turks who used to live in Greece, Bulgaria and various other countries left behind mosques and other quite notable buildings and structures such as bridges, in addition to great cultural influence in cuisine, music, etc. Alperunsal, you might find Wikivoyage's article on the Ottoman Empire interesting and possibly have something to add to it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:14, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi again, Ikan. Thank your fro your swift reply.

1. It is undoubtedly an invasion. Not a single sovereign country (not even Armenia, which backs the invasion) recognizes it as a sovereign country. De jure it is Azerbaijan. However, as this is a travel guide, I understand your concern. I won't re-edit. Additionally, see the green warning box in Crimea. Although it is recognized as part of Russia by 11 countries other than Russia, we have this warning. Nagorno-Karabakh, recognized by 0 countries, deserves at least a similar warning, isn't it? It is not a mere dispute to Wikivoyage:Be fair.
2. Yes, part of Turkey is in Europe and another part is in Asia. Then, we will need to make the following revisions: "Part of Turkey/Russia/Greece/Kazakhstan/Azerbaijan/Georgia is in Europe/Asia". To be fair...
3. Refugees and minorities are two different things. Approx 20% of Turkey are ethnically Kurdish. There are smaller minorities with the Circassians and Arabs being the biggest of these smaller ones (2% each). According to the UN Refugee Agency, 3.65 million of the 3.98 million refugees in Turkey are Syrians. No significant number of Iraqi refugees... If we count refugees as minorities, we should already start counting Ukrainians as a minority in Poland. Only the current flow is equivalent to approx. 3% of Poland. Additionally, Turkish immigrants in Germany constitute at least 4% of Germany. If we mention refugees and/or a 2% minority, then we need to mention a community that has been there for 60 years. To be fair...
4. I agree with your point that it's certainly relevant to travelers if they left things behind. The person who wrote "Historically inhabited by Armenians" needs to visit the fairness page of Wikivoyage. In France, I see this 1-liner for the Grand-Est "A region where wider European, and especially Germanic, culture has merged with the French, giving rise to interesting results." Seems fair. In case of Eastern Turkey, we might write "A region where wider Caucasian, and especially Armenian and Kurdish, cultures have merged with the Turkish, giving rise to interesting results.". This would be a fair 1-liner. To be fair...
5. It is relevant to state that Izmir was historically an ethnically mixed city with a longstanding Greek heritage. It should better be stated. Bulgarian regions, such as Upper Thracian Plain, Greek regions/cities, such as Thessaloniki were also historically ethnically mixed regions/cities with a longstanding Turkish heritage. However, we don't see such expressions when it comes to Turkish heritage. What I am seeking for is fairness, and to inform the travellers in a neutral way.
6. You are right for your warning. I am sorry to write my reply in your user page. My first edits, my first reply to a user... Sorry for occupying your user page because of my inexperience in this issue.

Hope we understood each other better

All the best Alperunsal (talk) 12:31, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Typo correction: Thanks for your swift reply Alperunsal (talk) 12:40, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

(1) Sure, add a similar disclaimer on the Nagorno-Karabakh page. (2) Everyone recognizes that most of Russian territory is in Asia. Many people don't know part of Kazakhstan is in Europe, so that's interesting and therefore worth mentioning; it looks like there's no mention of that in the Kazakhstan article, so by all means add that and specify which area of the country is in Europe. Very few people recognize Aegean islands as being in Asia, so you need to try for consensus if you want to make an argument at Talk:Greece that part of it should be considered in Asia per the traveller comes first, but if the consensus of geographers or geologists is that some of it is in Asia, I think there's no harm in simply stating that somewhere in Greece#Understand. As for the Caucasus region, that's a complicated issue in terms of geography, politics, identity, etc., and addressed at pages including Caucasus. (3) The Turkish minority absolutely should be mentioned in the Germany article and is mentioned. (4) I'm not sure about your point of fairness concerning lands in Turkey where Armenians used to live, because there's the matter of the Armenian genocide. If you feel that a wording you'd like to use might be controversial, it's best to discuss it on a talk page, though you could always try an edit and see whether someone else reverts or edits it for cause. (5) If the Turkish heritage of areas in Bulgaria and Greece is not addressed, please add information about it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:35, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

So, there is a disclaimer in the Nagorno-Karabakh article. If you would like to propose a change in wording, please make the proposal at Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:36, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your replies, Ikan Kekek. 1. Yes, I agree with you and when I have time I'll try to make the additions you mentioned. Good ideas... 2. In my first day here I directly made small edits. I wasn't aware of the talk/discussion sections. My fault... I'll definitely use them first. Sorry if I caused any misunderstandings. Looking forward to having more and more good quality collaboration together in the future. All the best Alperunsal (talk) 03:21, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Oh, no worries, and thanks for working with us! We really do take be fair seriously, and anyplace we're not being fair should be changed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:21, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Malay pronunciation

I wonder if this might be a difference between the Singapore dialect and the Terengganu dialect, but at least the way I've pronounce the t, p and k in Malay has always been unaspirated. In other words, closer to the Italian pronunciation than the English pronunciation. Although of course, unlike Chinese, Malay doesn't make that distinction between aspirated and tenuis, so you'll be understood if you pronounce them the English way. The dog2 (talk) 14:29, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't know only Terengganu dialect. Remember, I went to Sekolah Kebangsaan for 2 years, and I also spent time in K.L. The point of unaspirated consonants is that you make the shape of them at the end of a syllable without any other sound. How are you pronouncing a word like "peduli" without any aspiration? You can't, because there would be no sound. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:37, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

OK, I guess it's a matter of relative aspiration then. But as an example from Chinese, the "b" in Beijing is not the same as the English b, because unlike in English, it is not voiced, so it will sound like a "p" to English speakers. That is how I usually pronounce the "p" in Malay. If you speak Italian, you'll probably notice how Italians say their p's without that strong puff of air that English speakers have. In the case of Malay, it's not an important distinction, but some Chinese dialects (Hokkien/Minnan and Teochew are examples) do make that 3-way distinction between voiced, tenuis and aspirated. The dog2 (talk) 17:05, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I speak Italian, too. I will stipulate that my aspiration in "sepuluh" is not as strong as it is in "pull," but it's certainly not the same as unaspirated Ps at the ends of Malay words. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:07, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Line-ups

Re: "I don't know which dialect of English uses "line-ups" for something other than groups in which one may be a criminal."

That would be us to your north. We have line-ups at Tim Hortons, for poutine, and to get beer at the curling club, but that shouldn't be in an article on Jordan. I am surprised that "line-ups" makes you think of police situations only. Ground Zero (talk) 07:57, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Interesting. Maybe there are parts of the U.S. where lines are called lineups, too, but in New York, I think those are only situations in which an alleged witness looks at a group of possible suspects through a one-way glass and is asked to identify the alleged perpetrator. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:03, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Image density

I wonder, do you find the amount of images in Turku riverside walk suitable? For me there is one or two images per screenful (except the first), and I think the layout works well. The first screenful has the pagebanner and three images in Understand, which is plenty, but I wanted to show the character of different sections up front.

As you were critical to the amount of images in Finnish national parks, I'd like you to have a look, if you have the time. Do you find the amount excessive? I don't think I am going to remove any from this itinerary now, but it'd be good to know what I should aim for in other articles.

–LPfi (talk) 19:14, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. Turku riverside walk looks very good; the only possible improvement I can see is maybe to add an image to "Get in." I'll have a look at the other article later. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:40, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I really appreciate your feedback. I added an image. –LPfi (talk) 14:39, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Image density II

Hi Ikan, just wondering as you said that the images in Tasmanian national parks violate the image policy, are there any suggestions that you have as to which images should be removed? The article is 44.2k bytes and 34 images, and so per 1 image per 1000-2000 bytes, theoretically you could have all of them if you were to follow the bare minimum at 1 per 1000 bytes, but I'd like you to have a look when you get the time to, because I am not sure which ones to remove because they each portray a meaning and removing them would mean that some meaning may be lost. At the same time, the article should not be violating the image policy, so I agree that some of them should be removed, but this is not a high priority so take your own time. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:34, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks for the question. However, part of the problem in that article is the cells given to national parks, such that there's a lot of blank space to make a photo of every one fit in the cell, so I don't see any way to discuss images as long as that setup remains. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:48, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Oh well. It is a similar issue with Canadian national parks too so I'll start a discussion soon on Talk:National parks regarding how they should be formatted. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:51, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

re: Special:Diff/4416890 on Overseas Chinese cuisine

Feel free to :-). My insights were to create an article somewhat like Western food in Asia. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:05, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I forgot what I was going to say. I'll come back to this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:58, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

What I was going to say is that I doubt Singapore needs a different heading from Malaysia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:52, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

to be fair, I don't really have an opinion on it. I was maybe thinking on going a bit more into detail about Singapore's Chinatown but maybe I'm biased as I've spent more time in Singapore than Malaysia, particularly in Chinatown. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:33, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Singapore now has its own section (with content), so I guess it can stay as it is. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:40, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Happy 100000th :-)

Hey Ikan, I just noticed you passed your 100000th edit :-) Thank you for all the work you've put into this site, from copyediting, to dealing with touts and your contributions to destinations and topic articles too. As you're the first to have passed 100k edits (that is not traveler100bot), this is a huge milestone for the entire Wikivoyage from its advancement since the times of what is now a museum piece IMO ;-). Have a butter tart (or several). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:56, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Wow, that's astonishing. I don't know whether to feel good about this or not, but thanks for the calorie-free butter tart pictures! Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:03, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Reasons for Poutine change

Hi there

I wanted to properly explain the reason why I did those changes. You see, it's about cultural credit and a history of the dish being plagiarized by anglo-canadians (despite opposition to cultural appropriation being prevalent in their society) and them getting all the credit and glory for its creation, resulting in it being associated internationally with the english-speaking nation that led to Canada as we know it instead of the nation of quebec, despite the former having nothing to do with its creation. It's also about a possible double-standard, as I'm certain the national dish of Scotland would be presented here as Scottish dish (and not as an english/british dish) and a national dish of the Sapmis as a Sapmi dish (and not a Norwegian or Finnish one) out of respect and simple accuracy for viewers wishing to get an idea and not getting confused between two largely different cultures.

But probably the most important reason is to prevent confusion to viewers on wikivoyage, as said earlier. When you see "Canadian culture" and "Québécois culture", you rightfully expect different things, different travel experiences. So when you want a Québécois dish or an (anglo) Canadian dish (whatever that even exists), you shouldn't be confused as to what is what, that's the goal of this wiki : to make travel planning (or travel window shopping) an ease based on what you want to experience.

Also, the rest of the page presented it as quebecois, so it's about consistency. If it's the "where it originated from" sentence pose a problem, let's remove it to avoid redundancy, the "Quebecois dish" in the first sentence already saying it out loud. It's simple innocent respect and accuracy, that's all.

Have a wonderful day --166.62.226.25 16:14, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

It was clear what your motivation was, and I even have some sympathy with it, to a point (as I'm not sure what you really intend by emphasizing Quebec as a "nation"), but I don't agree with your conclusions. Canada is not an English-speaking country; it's a bilingual country. Anyway, I think none of this is travel-related. I suggest you make your argument on the talk page of the fast food article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:21, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

On the contrary, it is quite travel-related, read again my second paragraph. Not doing these changes is misleading those who wishes a québécois experience. And not acknowledging the double-standard is just showing how all of this is unfair and not respecting the consistency in logic this wiki demand across all its pages.

Since you insisted on expressing your point of view regarding non-travel stuff, I'll express mine for fairness. On paper it is bilingual, in reality, behind the shinny happy facade, it is not and those that speak french like Québécois get the short end of the stick in front of quebec-bashing and rampant anti-french language sentiments, personal experience here (really personal, that's why I'm, to be frank, a bit offended right now by what I perceive to be denial of the existence of these things). The "Canadian identity" (whatever that is, considering what Canada brags about being its distinct national identity was 90% stolen from Quebecois culture, from lumberjacks, to maple leafs as a symbol, to national anthems, to nearly all maple syrup production, to traditional clothes, to modern ice hockey, to cinema, to architectural styles...to poutine and even the term "canadian" itself ; canadiana is in reality québecaia, a big imperialist steal with an english crown on top of it) was politically and socially built and managed by english Canada, not Quebec (so much that there's a term for it, the RoC or "Rest of Canada" to design what's not Quebec as a socio-political block or "two solitudes" as it is funnily known in the RoC), so THAT's why I said it being the anglocanadian "nation" which led to modern Canada as it is perceived at home and outside : it's a simple historical fact, nothing political in it, bilingualism wasn't even official until the late 60s and the constitution itself is to this day legally valid in english only. Nation and country are two different things : there are countries with multiple recognized nations, like the UK, Ethiopia, Russia and Canada. Wikivoyage respectfully acknowledged the existence of these nations as equals to those that got their nation-state by allowing their adjectives to be used in priority, why not Quebec?

What I was intending by emphazing Quebec was the due right to existence under its own name, something the whole world can't seem to do by canadawashing the identity of great Quebecois figures, sites and overall culture (Wikipédia being also one main exemple, in french or in english). Respect, is that too much to ask?

Finally, yeah, good idea, I'll go make a point on the talk page. Thank you for the idea and for the sympathy. --166.62.226.25 19:26, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Sure thing; we'll have a discussion there. I would have to think First Nations peoples would have something to say about what was stolen from whom, but besides, the idea that almost everything in Canada is stolen from the Quebecois is a little strange to a fan of Cape Breton fiddling, and I think people in British Columbia would find that kind of claim puzzling. Don't get me wrong; I speak pretty good French when in practice (though from time spent in France) and have visited Quebec City and Montreal and love them (and if I had to go into exile, I'd love the opportunity to live in Montreal if it presented itself to me, though I doubt it would), so I have no dog in this fight but have to wonder whether bending in one direction or the other is really being fair. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:40, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

As fair as undoing centuries of oppression and attempts at eradicating our very identity as a distinct people "without culture or without history" to quote someone important whose vision would become the blueprint for modern canada in that regard. Canada as we now know it was not just built under the oppression of our Indigenous historic brothers, but ourselves and anyone that speaks french too. I appreciate your appreciation of Quebec and french but that's your personal experience and, sadly, you're in the minority. Trust me, I've seen seen or heard so many crappy things, including directly at me, that it made me an advocate for Quebec independence when I was beforehand a hardcore oh Canada federalist just a few years earlier, being able to make someone turn 180 degrees like that need some serious stuff.

I say "Stolen" because it isn't usual cultural fusion as equals, the same kind that created all national cultures in Europe and Asia (as was the case of the québécois culture that was born out of one of those willing fusions; the franco-indigenous alliance, where economy, rather positive views outside the Iroquois, war comradry and proximity of the "habitants", those non-nobles that were born or attached to Quebec rather than France during New France, to the Indigenous people influenced a lot the culture and minds of the future québécois away from France to the anger of the shocked catholic church) but plagiarism (having one culture taking credit for something they took from another culture, aka stealing, to the point people buy it and say "canadian" when talking about things Québec). Québécois culture proudly point out the indigenous origins of the elements that were integrated into it like raquettes, kayaks, mocassins or maple syrup (notice I said majority of the CURRENT PRODUCTION of maple syrup, not maple syrup by itself in my previous comment), no one here think otherwise, no plagiarism, proper credit gets where it should. It's not to say either that the european settlers didn't create original things of their own, just that no culture is born out of a vaccuum and cultural fusion and sharing should be celebrated as they create new nations, just like in Europe or Asia. And it's not like your country doesn't have potential for a great unified national culture (like with that Cape Breton fiddling, best island ever btw), you just don't try it, instead its advertised and internationally recognized as as such: Toronto (aka New York lite), Queen, mooses and beavers, less and less brands, stereotypes (the lumberjack and modern ice hockey one being stolen, correct word, from Quebecois culture), US carbon copy stuff plus indigenous stuff. Prince Edward Island, Cape Breton Island and Newfoundland are close to Québec in terms of having nationalistic distinct things from anyone else (just being a hub for outside cultures doesn't count as "distinct").

My problem is that what is québécois culture is not recognized as such internationally but under the annoying and uncalled for label "canadian" or the exonym "french-canadian", allowing the english canada that identify as such ("canadian") to take all credit and glory for itself saying it did it, aka plagiarism, it would be like Americans saying they invented pizza and everyone buying it, reffering to it as an "american" dish. Why do you have such a problem allowing ONE word to be changed to respect the existence of a people without voice? I guess its a thing only someone from a minority (Québécois are a minority) could understand. Anyway, can we move on fresh to the talk page? Each answer drain me away from actually starting it.

--166.62.226.25 22:23, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

See what other people think. I do sympathize with you, to a point (as an American, I want Canada to remain strong and a single country, because with all your imperfections, you are a good example for us in so many ways, but of course I feel you on your points about derogation and discrimination), but I really question how much of this is travel-related. I also think pizza wouldn't be a good analogy, because it comes from Italy, but we do very much talk about New York pizza, Chicago deep-dish pizza, etc., etc. I think better analogies would be all the regional foods in the U.S. that are best in their areas of origin but enjoyed throughout the country, such as barbecue. Also, think about this: how many Americans think French fries are really American, although they originate from Belgium? In effect, though, the way we eat them here, without mayonnaise but usually with ketchup, is non-Belgian. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:47, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Did you notice the photo of poutine on that page, with the caption "Poutine, Quebec's contribution to the fast food scene" and the description of poutine under "typical dishes" that begins "Poutine is a Québécois regional dish (also occasionally seen elsewhere in Canada and, increasingly, in the far northern tier of the United States)"? I think we're covered, really. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:05, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

EXACTLY. That was one of my argument. So, in the name of consistancy, I demand at once my culture be respected, the article itself does it once, proving me right, I shall extend it in the entire page, thank you. Objection overruled.

Also, the pizza was just an hypothetical "what if" exemple for the sake of an exemple for you to understand, not a reality. Origins are important.

Don't put me ever again with that maple-leaf empire I want nothing to do with. If it doesn't stay strong after our destiny gives us the state we rightfully deserve in the name of history, society and culture, that's its problem if we do all the work. Rejecting the right of people to rule themselves, rejecting their very existence as a distinct people and keeping them submitted in the name of petty geopolitics is called imperialism and its disgusting, thank you. Didn't you USA once celebrated heroes that fought for your distinct people's independence and later the right of people around the world to rule themselves during the World Wars and the 90s?

We're covered indeed, I'll do the change, reappropriate the dish of my people like the article already partially did. Goodnight. 166.62.226.25 00:07, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

You need consensus to do so, so I again suggest you start a thread on the fast food article's talk page, and the history of this country includes a civil war. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:42, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Palace openings for Hari Raya Aidilfitri

Just wondering if you know if this is held in all Malaysian states. I know that the Sultan of Johor hosts does host one, but I'm not sure if you ever went to any hosted by the Sultan of Terengganu. The dog2 (talk) 02:36, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

I didn't; I was busy celebrating with friends in my village, 25 miles away from Kuala Terengganu. I'd guess so, but I don't know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:14, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Delete

@Ikan Kekek, please delete my subpages along with their corresponding talk pages listed here Category:Speedy deletion candidates 2006nishan178713^t@lk 08:56, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Done. Next time, please don't create talk pages only to request their deletion; it causes more strain on the hands of whomever deletes them.

Best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:01, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Fried Vietnamese spring rolls in America

I don't know if the places I went to are Vietnamese or Vietnamese-American restaurants, but some of them are located within Vietnamese neighbourhoods. But everytime I've ordered fried spring rolls, they are always wrapped in wheat flour sheets like the type used for Chinese spring rolls, and not rice paper. The only time I've had the authentic version made with rice paper in the U.S. is at more expensive Vietnamese restaurants. The dog2 (talk) 22:03, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

New York isn't really strong in Vietnamese restaurants, but I remember descriptions of all these kinds of things being rice- and not wheat-based (and not in expensive restaurants), and that's certainly how they seemed to me. But it seems like a really minor point in an article about Vietnamese cuisine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:30, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

OK, maybe it differs between different parts of the US then. I remember that Vietnamese food in New York wasn't particularly outstanding, at least compared to the ones I've had in Australia or California. Interesting that the Vietnamese deep fried spring rolls in New York are authentic then, because the ones in Chicago are as I described, using a Chinese-style wrapping instead, unless I go to a more expensive restaurant. Unfortunately, I didn't have spring rolls in California, but in the ones I had in Australia were authentic too. For the non-fried spring rolls, I've also noticed that in Australia, you have to roll them yourself, and they give you the rice paper, hot water and filling separately, while in Chicago, they're usually served to you already rolled. The dog2 (talk) 02:26, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

We often have to roll them. I don't have loads and loads of experience eating Vietnamese food here, because as I said, it is not very strong here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:47, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Mariupol

To my knowledge, Mariupol was under the control of the Donetsk People's Republic when it declared independence in 2014, and the Azov Battalion fought a bitter war with them to reclaim it for the Ukrainian government, and made Mariupol their main base. So they had already been heavily bombed by Ukrainian forces previously before the Russian invasion. An I have in fact seen videos of ethnic Russians from Mariupol cursing the Ukrainian military for using them as human shields. So I won't be surprised if in Mariupol, the ethnic Russians are loyal to Russia and the ethnic Ukrainians are loyal to Ukraine. And there was also a massacre of ethnic Russians by the Ukrainian military in a theatre in Odessa because those ethnic Russians were opposed to the Euromaidan Revolution, so I won't be surprised if the ethnic Russians in Odessa support Putin. And as you know, the post-Euromaidan Ukrainian government removed Russian as an official language, and that really pissed off the ethnic Russians in Ukraine. I've heard that the armed forces of the separatist regions in Eastern Ukraine are ethnic Russians who were in the Ukrainian military who defected after Euromaidan.

As for Zelensky, isn't his first language Ukrainian? The name "Volodymyr" is a very Ukrainian name; the Russian equivalent would be "Vladimir". The dog2 (talk) 20:30, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't know what this refers to, but I suppose the thread on my user page may be relevant. I don't know much about the feelings in the "people's republics", but I don't think being ethnically Russian and having lived in one of them means you support the Russian war and like being "liberated" by Putin bombing your home city. –LPfi (talk) 21:08, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Zelensky's first language was Russian. And Kharkhiv is a Russian-speaking city. It doesn't matter what you wouldn't be "surprised" if people think; Wikivoyage articles are not places to idly speculate on these things, but we certainly know there are plenty of Russian-speakers fighting against the invasion today. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:08, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Over 12,000 ethnic Russians have been killed in the Donbass by Ukrainian military shelling over the past 8 years. And given that it is mainly the Azov Battalion has been fighting there, and those Azov guys are far-right Ukrainian ultranationalists who have a visceral hatred for ethnic Russians (not just Russian propaganda; this has actually been corroborated by Time magazine and Al Jazeera), those ethnic Russians in the Donbass might very well support Putin, but I don't have polling data to draw a conclusion. The dog2 (talk) 22:16, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Correct, you don't. And people in a city that's been razed to the ground by Russian shelling might have a "pox on both their houses" attitude but might not support the one who ordered the utter obliteration of their city. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:22, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

This discussion reinforces the deep concern that I have about Thedog 2's edits about politics and history.

First, let's start with the false assertion that Zelensky's first language is Ukrainian. Thedog 2 jumped to a conclusion based on the spelling of the man's name, instead of researching this, which is very easy to do in the age of Google. This is just the most recent example of Thedog 2 making something up in instead of looking something up.

Secondly, as Thedog 2 acknowledges, what they wrote in the article "might" be true, but they don't have any evidence.

This is not an isolated incident, but a pattern of behaviour. I think we have to consider whether Thedog 2's edits to political and historical information are so suspect that we should ask them to stop making such edits.

I know this is not the right place to raise this question, but I would like to hear the thoughts of Ikan Kekek and @LPfi: before I proceed on the talk page. Ground Zero (talk) 01:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Source that Zelenskyy's first language is not Ukrainian: w:Volodymyr Zelenskyy#Personal life – took four seconds to get that result. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:44, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

I would support that, Ground Zero. I think I've been very good in avoiding political speculations in articles. We all should. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:18, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

One has to be very careful when googling things up. I didn't read the sources for the Wikipedian statement, but judging from their titles they aren't about Zelenskyy's personal life (as aren't the sources in Early life), and I don't trust Wikipedia editors not to jump to conclusions. I suppose it's true, but the article could have got its current wording even if he was raised by Ukrainian speaking parents (their language isn't told), as he seemingly grew up in a Russian-speaking environment and perhaps attended school in Russian.

We cannot avoid political themes entirely in Understand and Respect sections, but I agree that The dog2 should be more careful not to jump to conclusions, and abstain from writing things based on possibly biased sources, or based on impressions rather than actual knowledge. (I don't know whether there have been problematic edits recently; asking things on talk pages should be allowed, although "no reason to get into this in the article" is a valid answer.)

–LPfi (talk) 09:32, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Existential wiki question

Hi Ikan Kekek,

I wasn't sure who else to ask. I just tried to make a page for the public campground I'm staying at. It seemed like it was in line with "be bold" and helping people figure things out about places they might want to go. But then someone deleted it and all it said was something like "campground fail" but I didn't see anything in whatever pages I read about how to be a wikivoyage editor. So I tried asking on that user's talk page where I could find the relevant guideline and a bot wouldn't let me ask the question.

I've bumped into this on Wikipedia as well in the past. I know media wikis are supposed to be friendly but I have experienced a really really high barrier to entry. I consider myself a good community member who, y'know, plays well with others and is an active and contibuting member of society. I really appreciated your constructive explanation when you deleted my contribution.

So I have a few requests, if you're willing: 1. I was wondering if you could pass a message along to the person that deleted the Sweetwater Summit Campground page that it would be more useful to explain what's going on than to just throw away my efforts with two cryptic words? If you think it could help others in the future. 2. Any chance you know what "campground fail" means? Maybe there's a page with a guideline somewhere I could read? 3. Any thoughts on the high barrier to entry for Wikipedia and apparently Wikivoyage?

All the best, off to go for an evening hike in the beautiful trails around this campground here. —The preceding comment was added by 172.58.22.179 (talk • contribs)

I'm sorry that happened to you. The relevant guideline is Wikivoyage:What is an article. Campgrounds don't get their own articles but are valuable to list in the article for the destination where they are sited, or failing that, the one for the nearest town. They would be a "sleep" listing. See Wikivoyage:Listings. Let me know if there's any other way I can help you.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:44, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

By the way, though, you misread the deletion notice, which was "campgrounds fail wv:wiaa". That's a link to What is an article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

to 172.58.22.179, I've added a listing to Sweetwater Summit Campground in San Diego/Mid-City where the campground belongs. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 03:04, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

oops. just realised that I added the listing in the wrong article. I self-reverted my edit. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:00, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. This is all very helpful. 172.58.19.12 17:23, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

We try. We were all new users once. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

existential wiki answer

it has been a very long time since drinks, so to speak, more parched than a dead dingo in the simpson desert, I think I am back Id rather be a drinker in the vicinity of the strand bookstore, however not likely again this lifetime... JarrahTree (talk) 14:13, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

How are you doing? I am now officially a COVID survivor. I got sick 2 Sundays ago, finally tested negative yesterday and now feel like I have a bad cold. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:22, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Apols for chiming in, but great to hear that you've tested negative. Hope you recover from your cold soon. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:38, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I think the symptoms are aftereffects from COVID, not a new illness. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:50, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Yeah when I recovered from Covid, I still had coughing symptoms for about three weeks. It was more of a concern when I went to Queensland where they had just opened up their borders and "living with Covid" was a new thing for them so every time I coughed I got strange looks (which is something that doesn't happen here down south). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:01, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

I'll continue wearing my mask, which should make people less worried about any time I might cough. How are you doing now? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:06, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. I'm doing fine as it's almost been a month since I contracted Covid, but case numbers are quite high out here that nearly everyone that I know of has had Covid in the past three months. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:24, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm glad you're fully recovered, but the other part sucks. People are pretending that the pandemic is over and that COVID is just the cold. It's not. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:37, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree. When I was in Brisbane two weeks ago, there were constant news reports about a "hidden pandemic" as no-one really wanted to test just before the Easter long weekend. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:52, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

I have been used to trusting our authorities, but restrictions are away and they say "the risk of getting seriously ill [in COVID-19] has never been this low", which is true on average for those who get ill (thanks to also vaccinated people getting the omicron), but the incidence has never been higher, so the death toll hasn't decreased. Few vaccinated healthy people get seriously ill, but I am not too inclined to take my chances. Good to hear that you are well. –LPfi (talk) 10:23, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm glad he's well; I am not well yet. I feel like I have a cold now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:21, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

OK, sorry. I hope you'll be well too soon. –LPfi (talk) 18:34, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:36, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Much or many

Here you changed "much" to "many". I understand that you cannot say "much batteries", but I doubt the limitation is on the number. Can you find a good way to express that? "How much battery" does not sound right. Do we have to resort to something convoluted like "limit on maximum combined weight of your lithium batteries"? –LPfi (talk) 12:03, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Are lithium batteries not in one standard weight? If not, then I would suggest "their big cousins, commercial aviation, usually have a pretty low weight limit for lithium ion batteries." Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:44, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

The ones you use in your torch are different from the one in your mobile phone or those in a Tesla. I don't know what kind they use in drones, but I think they might be custom made. (I assume this is about Li-ion batteries, not "lithium-metal" ones) –LPfi (talk) 09:00, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

So let's go with weight limit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:26, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

153.107.26.53

re Special:Diff/4454642: not Brendan, but it's our other Australian LTA (Basa Pulu Kokos) based on editing habits. Anyway, thanks for the revert :-) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:11, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Sure thing. Yeah, I can see that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:59, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Cloistered communities

To my knowledge, monasteries are for monks, and convents are for nuns. So women cannot visit cloistered monks, while men cannot visit cloistered nuns unless they are priests who are there to conduct specific rites. The dog2 (talk) 17:43, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

But there are a lot of cloisters that can be visited. To take one example, the Abbey of Monte Oliveto in Chiusure has great art in its cloister and welcomes respectful tourism as well as visiting pilgrims of both sexes. So be careful how you phrase things. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:53, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Regional American accents

Just wondering, where can you still hear these accents? I never heard the New York accent when I was living in New York (except when I hear Bernie Sanders speaking on TV), and now in Chicago, I never hear the Chicago accent. White people just speak with a general American accent similar to what you hear in the news. Likewise, I never heard a Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore or New Orleans accent whenever I visited those cities. And even when I went to Acadiana, I did not hear the Cajun accent in downtown Lafayette; the people there just spoke with a general American accent. The only time I heard the Cajun accent was when I went to an out-of-the-way suburban mom and pop grocery store that someone on Tripadvisor recommended for boudin and cracklin'. But otherwise, I have to go onto YouTube if I want to hear those accents. The dog2 (talk) 14:52, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

I actually ran this by my girlfriend. We both agree that there's less isolation than there used to be, but we think you're exaggerating about the demise of these accents. I've certainly heard very distinct Southern accents in trips to the Carolinas, and the Pittsburgh accent, while not drastically different from some New York accents, is definitely distinct. Likewise, it's not at all uncommon to hear people in the Boston area "pahk the cah", and I definitely noticed a Hawaiian accent when I visited. Etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:13, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

So where in New York City would you recommend people to go to if they want to hear the New York accent, just like how Bernie Sanders speaks? And yes, it's certainly true that the Southern accents still persist among the younger generation to some degree. When I went to that grocery store in suburban Lafayatte, I certainly heard the young women working there speaking with a very strong Cajun accent. But in downtown Lafayette, all I heard was the general American accent. And there was a young woman from Alabama who joined the neuroscience PhD programme at my university, and you can hear a very thick Southern accent when she gives her talks. But that's the exception rather than the rule. I have not been to Alabama, but most Alabamans that I have met in Chicago speak with a general American accent, and completely lack the drawl. I've also met numerous Texans, and they also speak with a general American accents, and do not have the twang at all. The dog2 (talk) 17:29, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Many of the Texans I've known have a very distinct accent. In terms of the New York accent, I'd actually suggest you talk to more Long Islanders to hear strong versions of the accent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:31, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Driving in Malaysia

I wonder if you think you would be up to the task of creating such an article. Your Malay is probably better than mine, so I guess you could help to translate some road signs. I only know some simple expressions like "Awas" (Caution) or "berhenti" (stop). Unfortunately, I never got the chance to drive in Malaysia, but my family would make road trips to Malaysia back when I was a kid, so I guess I have some familiarity with road conditions in Malaysia. For instance, I have noticed that Malaysian drivers tend not to use their signals when changing lanes. And I also noticed that while there is a good expressway network along the West Coast if you want to drive from Singapore up to Penang, the East Coast doesn't have that. I've only made it as far up the East Coast as Mersing, but the road there is just a regular country road, so it would probably take a while to make up up to Kuantan, Kuala Terengganu or Kota Bharu if you are starting from Singapore. The dog2 (talk) 20:36, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, there is the E8 lebuhraya, but it's inland. But I remember from 2003 that the East Coast highway itself was much improved compared to the 1-lane-each-way though nicely blacktopped road that was there in the 70s; I believe it was 2 lanes each way. I'm not a driver, though. :-) In addition to "Awas", add "Berhaya," as in "Awas! Berhaya!" Drivers in Malaysia seemed better in 2003 than they had been from 1975-77, for whatever that's worth. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Revert

You reverted my change to Valle del Cauca's banner because:

Your banner substitution for Cali was so obvious I marked it patrolled, but the normal procedure is to propose to replace a banner and see if you get a consensus behind the suggestion. Please start a thread on this article's talk page.Undo revision 4476012 by Travelwriter1000

But this discussion already took place, and you supported the change. Travelwriter1000 (talk) 15:06, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry. Only one comment isn't really a consensus, but since no-one else was interested enough to comment, the change should be made. I'll make the change. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:57, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't love the skyline view, though. I think it's improvable. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:59, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree (it's not one of mine), but it's better than having the crummy one at both Valle del Cauca and Buga. Travelwriter1000 (talk) 15:34, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah. If nothing else, we don't want the same banner used in two articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:48, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

communication channel to coordinate

What is the best communication channel to coordinate with other Wikivoyage editors across language editions? Is there an active telegram or facebook group, IRC or other types of chat? --Zblace (talk) 18:00, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Wikivoyage Interlingual Lounge, but it would be a good idea to supplement that with announcements on the Travellers' pub and equivalents on other Wikivoyage language versions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:59, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you...Trying both. --Zblace (talk) 20:01, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Seremban

Jika anda tidak berpuas hati dengan gambar, silalah ganti dengan gambar asal, bukan main revert je. ade je informasi lain upadte pun kena revert juga. *angys* (talk) 21:55, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

OK. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:12, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Habis-lah. Ada semua? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:15, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Regarding Special:Diff/4495642

Regarding your message

Why couldn't you close this yourself? It is not a bad practice for any admin to close a nom.

Because dealing with admin nominations stuff is usually done by bureaucrats, not other admins (unless they're self-closing a nom. they started). That's why left the closing bit alone. Hope that clarifies why. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:42, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

There are many examples in Wikivoyage:User rights nominations/Archives of admins who are not bureaucrats closing admin nominations. I don't see a good reason why only bureaucrats should close such noms, though I see that was added at Wikivoyage:User rights nominations at some point. I'll start a talk page thread about it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:29, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

New bureaucrat inactivity policy

You are receiving this message because you are a bureaucrat on this wiki. Following a successful change in the inactivity policy, the bureaucrat policy has now been updated. Bureaucrats may now have their privileges removed if they have not: Made one edit Made one admin or bureaucrat action over a 12-month period. Bureaucrats who do not meet these requirements will be notified well in advance on their talk pages. Thank you.

--SHB2000 (talk) 06:52, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Apologies for this. I forgot that you were participating on Wikivoyage talk:Bureaucrats#Inactivity policy thread but I didn't have that in mind when I sent out the mass message. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Not a problem. It read like a threat, but I knew it couldn't have been intended for me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:45, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Yep, I sent it to everyone who was on Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat using Special:MassMessage so definitely not only for you ;-). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:51, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Special:Diff/4516408 on Northampton (England)

Regarding that edit, British English (and Australian, New Zealand, Indian and so on. English) does not usually put a period after St, Mt, Rd and so on so it would be St Gilles. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 01:11, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Now, about the capes in Delaware Bay... Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:22, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Responded to that on my talk. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 01:53, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

My apologies

Hi Ikan, I apologise if my comments have caused any offense on Talk:Clothes#A proposal to ban religious quotes.. It was not my intent to offend you or anyone. I was quite frustrated how everyone completely ignored my point of view, plus the irrational sockpuppet allegations, but I shouldn't have let it loose. Judaism wasn't on my mind, but the quote still does come out as proselytising to me, keeping in mind that there is no clear cut line between what's proselytising and what's not; it can be interpreted differently by person. Either way, I'll drop the stick, and I apologise again if I've caused any offense. Regards, --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:11, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Appreciated, but do keep in mind that Jews are not trying to convert you, so there is indeed a clear line as regards Jews vis-a-vis non-Jews. I'm a secular Jew who practices to a very limited extent, but that doesn't cause me to dis the Torah as part of my heritage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:13, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

@SHB2000: Also, I was not disregarding your opinion. We just happen to disagree on what constitutes proselytizing. For me, merely quoting a passage from some holy book does not in and of itself mean that you are trying to promote that religion, but of course, you're free to disagree with me on that. The dog2 (talk) 22:58, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Japan

Hey there... to answer your question, you're probably right, however once more details become available I think they should be put into the Get In box. For example, whether or not there will be any vaccine requirements, as the Prime Minister did not mention it in his speech. I'm sure MOFA will put out an update very soon. JRHorse (talk) 22:25, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, sure, whatever is of most help to travelers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Admin permissions

I've not been editing that much on Wikivoyage recently, so I don't think there is any need for me to keep the admin rights. So could you remove them and the int admin as well. Thanks. -- WOSlinker (talk) 17:46, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

@WOSlinker: I'm not Ikan here, but thank you for your service. We'll truly miss your technical updates :-(. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 22:03, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

I strongly second this. Please feel welcome to request the rights back any time you decide you'd like to start using them again, and stay well! Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:02, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

WOSlinker, should I also remove your template editor rights, or would you like to keep those? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:04, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to keep that. I think I might still have a use for it as I may still want to update some protected templates occasionally. Thanks. -- WOSlinker (talk) 07:18, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:22, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Standard revision deletion request

Hi, could you please standard revision delete 5 revisions to your user page. Thanks. Tailsultimatefan3891 (t | c | ca) 01:38, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

If you're spending time looking at the history of my user page, why? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:49, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm guessing because Tailsultimatefan3891 might've found Special:Diff/3471557 inappropriate? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:52, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

But why would they be looking at this history? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:58, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Maybe a m:Wikiarchaeologist? (I certainly fall into that category) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:05, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Those revisions are inappropriate or degrading. You may have a standard revision delete to hide those revisions. Tailsultimatefan3891 (t | c | ca) 12:00, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Who else is looking at them? Concentrate on creating content. You are here to improve a travel guide, aren't you? Think about why you're here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:41, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Best wishes

I just read Special:Diff/4550785; I hope COVID hasn't hit you that hard. COVID does really suck sometimes and the last time I had it (mid-August), it really did feel miserable at times, but keep in mind that there will be better days coming. Either way, I hope you have a speedy recovery! --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 03:15, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

A speedy and full recovery to both of you. Ground Zero (talk) 07:42, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

@Ground Zero: Not me – I've mostly recovered from it as it's been 2 months, but I thank my immune system for that ;-) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:54, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

SHB: I meant IK and girlfriend, but I wasn't clear. Ground Zero (talk) 08:59, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Indenting sucks... SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:24, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

So far, this is much milder than last time. Thanks very much for your good wishes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:47, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

My girlfriend is much better and has performed twice this past week. Thanks! Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:10, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Revert

Hey I am new to editing on this site, why was the link to english on Fuerteventura reverted? I appreciate any feedback given. I sell eggs (talk) 23:58, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, welcome! The reason is that since anyone reading this site knows English and English language varieties is only about the differences between some dialects of English, there is no good reason to link the name of the language to anything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:05, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

@I sell eggs: Wikivoyage:Internal links provides more information on how we handle links in Wikivoyage. I hope it helps. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 01:13, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Allowing Brendan's content to stay

Why do you think it's okay to leave Brendan's content up and only changing one word? (I don't mind having the listing, but I object to the wording, which was probably stolen from somewhere). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 00:23, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I take your point. I'm pretty tired, but I can try editing some. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:31, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Much appreciated; any wording that doesn't look near-identical should be fine, IMO. If only we could find a way to prevent Brendan spamming every single country/region article with Christmas content... SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 00:35, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I know. It's really annoying as Hell, especially when he keeps adding stuff about Christmas in, like, Kuwait, and it happens like clockwork every year. However, in this case, the marker should be listed. I think you'll be satisfied with my phrasing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:38, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Thx; LGTM :-). Regarding Brendan, I think the only way to deal with this is to routinely range block the /64 range he uses (making sure they geolocate to Brisbane or the Sunshine Coast), but he's managed to find a way out of it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 00:56, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Does he get around the abuse filters? Otherwise we could use them instead of blocking the ranges. –LPfi (talk) 10:28, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I thought we discussed this last year and chose not to use the filters. IIRC, we never implemented such because an innocent IP might want to add their town's local Christmas fair or the alike. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:34, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Of course, we cannot disallow all Christmas-themed editing, even from those locations. I though we could combine the theme with something clever. But if IPv6-/64 ranges are the best we can do, then the risk of the next one to use that range trying to edit Wikivoyage is minimal – but do we actually catch his next edit by those range blocks? Otherwise just reverting is equally effective, with a 1-hr block the times we could interrupt a series. –LPfi (talk) 11:51, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Word for "simhall"

From Talk:Sex segregation: "What you're calling swimming baths would presumably be either pools or perhaps beaches. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:29, 22 November 2022 (UTC)"

"Swimming bath" was the translation of "simhall" given by my dead-wood dictionary. Wiktionary says "swimming pool (indoor facility for swimming)". The thing I'm searching a word for is a building containing at least a swimming pool, changing rooms, showers and sauna, often several pools of different kinds, such as one with diving platforms, one for children and one with cold water, in addition to the main one(s). Neither dictionary gives that meaning for "swimming pool". Are these facilities uncommon in Anglophone countries? –LPfi (talk) 08:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

I can't speak for all Anglophone countries, but that doesn't sound like anything that's common in the U.S. The closest thing I can think of here would be a spa, but I actually don't know what the place you describe would be called. It's not like the Turkish baths in Budapest, which don't have diving boards or saunas that I can remember. I think what you're describing is a Nordic thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:04, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

That would explain the lack of word to describe it. Here these facilities are ubiquitous in cities, usually municipal and specifically for swimming, with other activities as supplements. Private "simhall" are rare. The private counterparts instead concentrate on wellness (spas) or fun (water parks), often combined. There is some cross-breeding, such as many "simhall" containing gyms and many spas having also a pool for regular (back-and-forth) swimming in cool water.

With thousands of lakes and extensive archipelagos, swimming has been a big thing, once we got wealthy enough to have time for such "useless" activities (archipelago dwellers learnt to swim only recently – you'd keep to your boat, and keep children away from the shore). Learning to swim has been on the curriculum in primary schools in Finland more or less during my and your lifetime, as a sport and to keep down drownings; my parents and their friends did swim, but many of their age did not. With our short summers, schools and athletes needed indoor facilities, many built in the 1970s. I assume the developments have been similar in Sweden and Norway.

–LPfi (talk) 09:52, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Holocaust remembrance

Just to be clear, I know for a FACT that the Holocaust happened and that six million Jews (and millions of nonJews) died. I wasn't downplaying that. But the Holocaust wasn't the largest genocide in history. Mao's China gets that unfortunate honor.

-Danyl Schiff Danyl Schiff (talk) 22:52, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

That's a respectable point of view. I believe Stalin murdered more people, but most of that killing and most of Mao's is usually not considered a genocide. And the main point is that I think we should go by Wikipedia's table on the death tolls in different genocides but without mentioning which genocide was of the largest number of people and not get into academic disputes on a travel guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:55, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Alright then. Danyl Schiff (talk) 14:32, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Glad we're cool, and thanks for your contributions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:37, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Banner photo

Hello, please don't replace the photo of the special banner for the Ngawi town wikivoyage. Because the photo really describes the characteristics of tourism in the Ngawi city area. In your opinion, is there something wrong with the photo of the Van den Bosch fortress? 140.213.167.224 22:51, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes. The problem was that the banner was deleted for copyright violation. Isn't this the same image that was taken from a website that has no Creative Commons Copyleft notice on it and has several photos that have specific copyrights on them? We can't steal copyrighted images and use them here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:09, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

It looks like I was wrong about this image. I have reverted my deletion of it from the article. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:52, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Happy holidays!

Happy holidays, Ikan Kekek! Hello Ikan Kekek, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! It has been a pleasure to have you as a fellow Wikivoyager this year. Wherever you are, enjoy the festive season and stay warm (if you're north of the Tropic of Cancer)! Your help in maintaining, improving and expanding Wikivoyage will always be appreciated. Greetings from Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. --SHB2000 on 11:48, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you! It's 11 Fahrenheit, about -12 Celsius in New York now. I'll bundle up tonight when I go to Brooklyn to play a midnight mass! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:29, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Enjoy your midnight mass in 7 hours (as of writing this)! If I may ask, what instrument will you be playing? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:51, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm playing flute. It's a trio - flute, violin and cello. I hope the heat is good in the church! We start our prelude at 10:30 and expect to be done around 1:15 AM. I've played a couple of midnight masses that really did start at midnight, and we were done around 2:45. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:28, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Nice :-). I once went to a midnight mass a few years back (pre-COVID) as a friend was playing the violin, and I have to say, I'm impressed by the level of coordination that goes into these. Good luck for tonight! --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 23:17, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! It was fun. It was not a trio. There were two violinists, one violist, one cellist, two trumpet players, a small but excellent chorus, a beautiful soprano soloist in one song, and most importantly, an organist. I got home at 2:47 AM. I'm glad I don't have to wake up early and play again in the morning, like organists and the violinist who was sitting next to me do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:07, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with Wikivoyage, but...

I was editing b:en:Wikijunior:Asia/Malaysia last night and was shocked to find out that b:en:Wikijunior:Asia/Malaysia#What are some important sites? only listed George Town and Malacca/Melaka as the country's most important sites. I've since expanded this to include Gunung Mulu National Park in Sarawak, Batu Caves and the Petronas Towers in KL, but surely there ought to be more important sites than the five now listed. In particular, are there any sites on the East Coast that you think are worth a mention? On one hand, it's supposed to be for children and the East Coast doesn't have many interesting sites that the average 10-year-old, per se, would find extremely fascinating, apart from maybe Pulau Redang and maybe National Park. What say you? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 04:10, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I haven't been to Malaysia since 2003, but I remember most of the East Coast as being dotted with pretty villages with coconut trees. Kenyir Lake in Ulu Terengganu has beautiful views, and unless things have changed, you can pay someone to paddle you around it. I liked Kota Bharu when I was a child, but I have no idea how another child today would react to a much larger Kota Bharu. The Jungle Highway, or whatever it's called, that connects Kelantan and Perak, was pretty when I took a bus across it in 2003. In terms of islands, there are several other ones, including Tioman (the largest on the East Coast, which I haven't been to) and Kapas. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:06, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions – I'll implement them soon. Should others like Mount Kinabalu in Borneo also be added?

In saying that, I'm glad that these atlas-like pages exist for the geography buffs of Generation Alpha. I'm fortunate that my parents were willing to buy me atlases when I was a 10-year-old about a decade ago (and also pass down atlases they had as a child in the 1970s which I still have), but it's great that there's now free kid-friendly online information without buy anything. I sometimes wished that these were more publically known about, because everyone who I've talked to IRL has never heard of Wikibooks :-(. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I've added them all but the Jungle Highway – Google Maps is giving me two routes (neither of which are named Jungle Hwy), one via Highways 4 and 76 passing Gerik and the other via Highways 8 (not the E8 lebuhraya) and 185 passing Gua Musang. Do you remember which route you exactly took? Otherwise, the article is looking much more like a page from an atlas now :-). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:57, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I took the one via Gerik. I've never seen Gua Musang. I would add Kinabalu, but I've never been to Borneo. There are probably various interesting places there. I remember hearing that people take river trips up the Rejang in Sarawak, and Tawau has a harbor, etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:01, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Added those two. Sorry to bother you a lot with non-Wikivoyage related matters, but is it true that by law, all Malays are Muslim (as stated in the "[w]hat is the most common religion in Malaysia?" section above)? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:12, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it is true. All Malays are by definition in the Malaysian constitution Muslims, as I remember, but of course not all Malaysian Muslims are Malay. Nevertheless, a traditional Malay expression for conversion to Islam is "masuk Melayu" (literally "enter Malay"), because many converts, or at least their children, are more or less accepted as Malays if they speak Malay and live in a Malay community. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

That makes sense. So that means Malaysia's Chinese and Indian communities can still practice whatever faith they choose to? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:13, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. Orang Asli are of different religions, too. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:49, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Interesting; I'm learning so much today (and yesterday). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 20:35, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ That's provided they aren't already Muslims. The Chinese and Indians who are already Muslims are not allowed to convert out of Islam, because that constitutes the crime of apostasy. Most Malaysian Indians are Hindu, but there is quite a large Indian Muslim community too. Some things like teh tarik, nasi kandar and roti canai are associated with the Indian Muslims. In Singapore, the vast majority of Malays are Muslims, but unlike in Malaysia, there is no law requiring them to be Muslims, and I actually had a Malay Christian neighbour when I was really young, but unfortunately, we've lost touch. The dog2 (talk) 00:00, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's right. It is illegal to convert out of Islam or to practice Ahmadiyyah or Shiism in Malaysia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:40, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

This is not mentioned in Malaysia#Stay safe, I suppose it should be added. Few would convert out of Islam during their stay, but if practising one's religion (in public) is a criminal offence, people should be warned. –LPfi (talk) 15:42, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

To be clear, I'm not sure practicing Shiism is officially illegal, but I understand that it is suppressed. Yes, proselytizing other religions to Muslims or converting out of Islam is illegal in Malaysia. I doubt there would be a greater punishment for illegal proselytizing than expulsion, but Malaysians who convert out of Islam would have problems. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:59, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Interesting. So looks like the irony is that Shia in Malaysia have to travel to Muslim-minority Singapore to practise their religion. There is only one Shia mosque in Singapore though, since the vast majority of Singaporean Muslims are Sunnis. But what's different from Malaysia I guess was that in Singapore, MUIS (Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura, the governing body for Islam in Singapore) was jointly established by the Sunni and Shia communities. The dog2 (talk) 22:08, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

That's interesting and cool. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:47, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

I thought a Shia could go to a Sunni mosque and participate in the Friday prayer with nobody noticing and them not violating their faith. How much do the differences show? Obviously (with the info above) a Shia shouldn't be discussing theology when visiting the mosque, but avoiding such discussions, would they commit a crime and risk trial by practising their faith in Malaysia? Would the fact that you are Shia (or Ahmadiyya) make your praying illegal? Are there details in clothing that would reveal them being Shia? Would carrying such symbols be a crime? –LPfi (talk) 10:30, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Normally, any Muslim could worship at a mosque, but it matters what you proclaim yourself to be. See this short note about an instance of persecution of Ahmadis in Selangor. The Wikipedia article about Islam in Malaysia also presents shocking information about the persecution of Shiahs in Malaysia, and you'll see that some of it is recent. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:48, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't think you could tell who was a Sunni, Shiah or Ahmadi in Malaysia based on what they are wearing, but I didn't know anyone in Malaysia who said they were Shiite or Ahmadi. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:50, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank You

Thank you for clarifying things.

Vital Articles Grammar (talk) 23:07, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Sure thing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Bogotá

Thank you for your help with the hotel listing for the Bogota article Ikak Kekek. I truly appreciate it! So just to clarify for future references should I just include a hotels amenities, instead of saying a modern hotel or luxury hotel with this and that? I really didn't mean to "toat", so thank you for the help correcting it, I just wanted to add more hotels to the short list... 74.96.153.48 17:46, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

See Wikivoyage:Don't tout, especially the bullet "Avoid using flowery, vague terms" (and also Rating systems: Colombia#Sleep says nothing about what "five stars" means). I think whether a hotel is modern or luxury is relevant, but it is too easy to use those words for touting a hotel that doesn't live up to such expectations. "World-class" says nothing to me: it might suggest that it's among the world's best hotels, but I doubt the hotel is in the top-10 or even top-1000; I assume it just means "good in the eyes of the owners". A "Regulars of the Raffles will feel at home" would say more, if that's true – and would indeed be livelier. "Neoclassical building" is relevant if it's true, but "Neo-clasical style building" sounds as it might just be a failed try at the style. Pet-friendly is relevant, but "Pets welcome." says as much – unless the friendliness means that the staff welcome also the dog, have water ready for it and pet it while you do your paperwork, if so, tell that! "Minutes away" is also a standard touting phrase: 60 minutes with a motorbike is also "minutes away".

I don't know whether the examples are relevant for you, they were from an IP that edited a district of the city recently. I hope they give some clarification on what we want, if the language at the linked guidelines isn't enough.

–LPfi (talk) 18:22, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, and thanks to LPfi for these examples. I think the real issues were saying it was "conveniently located" and then mentioning a bunch of attractions. Hotels typically do that, but we don't do that on Wikivoyage. The Wikivoyage:Don't tout and Wikivoyage:Listings pages will give you useful guides to what should be in listings. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:53, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Wrong discussion page link in article

Hi Ikan, I'm sorry to bother you, but you seem to be the most proactive knowledgable user on this site. I encountered a problem today that I don't know how to fix. While reviewing the content for the Mexican state of Durango (https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Durango_(state)), I thought of something I wanted to bring up to the community, so I clicked the "Discussion" tab for the page. Unfortunately, it brought up the discussion page for the town of Durango, Colorado. Is this something I could fix, or something I need admin help with? Thank you for any insight you can provide. Mrkstvns (talk) 17:17, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

I think any autoconfirmed user could create a disambiguation page for Durango and make the Mexican state the default for the name. Look at London for a model of a "see also" that goes to a disambiguation. I totally agree that the Mexican state is the obvious default for Durango, not the city in Colorado. If you're not able to do the required edits, I or some other admin who's not currently traveling should be able to help. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:08, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mrkstvns: I removed the redirects for the talk page of Durango (state) and that of the disambiguation page (Durango). They were created by oversights when moving the article on Durango of Colorado. Now you should be able to easily create the proper talk page. I also edited the disambiguation page not to have the Colorado town first. (You would have been able to follow the small-print link in the top of the article and just edit away the redirect, but the redirect pages should never have been created, so better this way.) –LPfi (talk) 07:31, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I find redirects to be a little tricky, so appreciate the help. Cheersǃ Mrkstvns (talk) 16:27, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, thanks to LPfi. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:37, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Uhh...

You and I are on good terms, so I'm gonna put this bluntly: GET THAT PHOTO OFF THE PHOENIX ARTICLE! I TRIED TO EDIT THE ARTICLE EARLIER (I think around 7:30) AND THERE'S KIDDIE SMUT ON IT!! I didn't even try to remove the picture, as it's so morally abhorrent that I couldn't bear to look at it long enough to remove it. So I left it how it was, knowing an admin would eventually clean it up. I literally wanted to throw up upon seeing it, and I mean literally in the proper sense of that word. Maybe you or someone else has already gotten to it, but if you haven't, I INSIST YOU GET TO IT.

Your friend,

Dat Boy Danyl Schiff (talk) 04:22, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

That must have been in the edit I already rolled back. I will hide the edit from the history. That user has already been blocked permanently. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:25, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, and תודה (which also means thank you). Dat Boy Danyl Schiff (talk) 04:43, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I can read a bit of Hebrew. :-) I'm sorry you saw the image. I rolled it back without looking at it after I deleted the user's user page and blocked them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:46, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, why do we even keep pedoscums alive? I researched "Cary Jay Smith", and he's a SICK individual. I hesitate to even call him sick, as sick people at least want to change their position, even if that position is being a former molester. He calls himself Mr. Rape Torture Kill, or Mr. RTK. He has been quoted as saying that if you don't cut off his *noodle* and hands, he'll rape again. Yet they released this scum anyway because his hearing got cancelled for COVID. Here's an article about him: https://abc7.com/cary-jay-smith-sex-offender-orange-county-mr-rape-torture-kill/11542125/. Dat Boy Danyl Schiff (talk) 04:54, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I'll abstain from reading. His hearing got cancelled or did it get postponed? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:56, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Cancelled entirely. Dat Boy Danyl Schiff (talk) 04:58, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

You know, I've been wanting to apply for mod status for a while now. Maybe this could be my special niche: removing chomo sh*t from the site. Dat Boy Danyl Schiff (talk) 04:59, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I realize I'm not great at following every "format rule," but if there's one thing I'm good at, it's recognizing and removing CP. Dat Boy Danyl Schiff (talk) 05:00, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Anyone can nominate themselves, but I think some admins probably don't know you yet. I'd suggest participating more in discussions on policy and districting and such if those kinds of things interest you. We want admins to show they understand Wikivoyage policies, guidelines and how the site works. Some great users aren't interested in that kind of "under the hood" stuff and are just great content providers. In terms of this guy, I hope his stuff wasn't up long but I dealt with it right away when I looked at the site. I didn't have to confirm what the image looked like to know that it was totally inappropriate and that the guy had to be blocked right away. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:05, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Having seen the image, I can confirm it was a young boy wearing a nappy, possibly 12 or 13. No nudity, thank goodness, but I wouldn't want my sons depicted like that. Dat Boy Danyl Schiff (talk) 05:13, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

To say the least. Dat Boy Danyl Schiff (talk) 05:14, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

No, that's disgusting, and I saw that user's edit summary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:13, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi Ikan Kekek, just checking, have you made a report to the WMF Legal Team about this? If you haven't, no worries, but I will do so per our Wikivoyage:Child protection policy. I haven't seen the image on Phoenix and am not sure where the Californian or U.S. law would stand on it, but given the checkuser result has shown this individual has posted child abuse content to WV since at least November last year (trigger warning), our lawyers may be interested in ensuring this doesn't happen again.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:42, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't sure how to contact them. The image itself (which I saw on Commons) doesn't show any nudity, so I don't think it's likely to itself be criminal, but WMF Legal might want to be on the lookout for the guy, anyway. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:34, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Urbex in NYC

To my knowledge, there are still some abandoned infrastructure in New York City, such as the old streetcar depot at the Queensboro Bridge, and a few abandoned subway stations like City Hall. And given that NYC was one of America's great industrial cities, I'd imagine there must be abandoned factories scattered around the city just like what you get in Chicago, although I would admit that many of the abandoned factories in Chicago have been repurposed, and those that have not will probably be repurposed in the not too distant future. The dog2 (talk) 15:02, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

You can't do urbex in the subway tunnels. I don't know anything about the abandoned streetcar depot, but if you do, mention it. There's no point in mentioning that you can do urbex in x and y city and then give the reader no specifics. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:04, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Next time you go to the Queensboro Bridge, have a look from the Manhattan side and you will see a kiosk there. That used to be the entrance to the streetcar depot, but the stairway has been sealed off with concrete, so you can no longer see it. There is also another abandoned underground streetcar depot at the Manhattan side of the Williamsburg Bridge, and there were in fact plans to convert it to an underground park called the Lowline, but those plans have stalled due to a lack of funding. The dog2 (talk) 23:44, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

If you get into it, how is that urbex? Urbex is short for "urban exploration." Do you know where below the Williamsburg Bridge? I've walked in that area a lot. My point is, though, in case it isn't clear enough: it is not useful to the reader to mention cities without providing any details about what urbex there is to do there, especially when the city guides don't mention it, either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:18, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Jews in Singapore

Since you're Jewish, I thought you might be interested in watching this documentary: [55]. The Jewish community in Singapore is tiny, but they've made some significant contributions; the first legal aid fund in Singapore was founded by a Jew called Harry Elias for instance. The dog2 (talk) 01:43, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I'm generally aware of the history of the Singaporean Jewish community, and my father went to one of their shuls on some High Holy Day back in the 70s. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:44, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Applause in a church concert

To answer your question, I went to a performance of Bach's St Matthew's Passion at a Lutheran church for Lent, and the pastor told us not to applaud at the end of part one, when they headed into a break, but instead told us to wait until the entire performance was completed before applauding. I guess you could say it was semi-liturgical, given that the pastor led prayers before the beginning of the performance. In this particular case the performance was arranged by the church, though there are also cases where secular ensembles rent church premises to put on classical music concerts, so I guess it depends on which case it is. The dog2 (talk) 18:02, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I have played loads and loads of concerts at churches and been to loads more, and if they want the audience not to applaud, they will tell you, just as this pastor did. If they don't tell you not to applaud and it's non-liturgical, you applaud. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:04, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

The student choir where I sung gives concerts also in churches, with two yearly big ones in the cathedral at the beginning of Advent. It has been more or less consistent in these concerts not to have applause between pieces, and I think that's the common tradition also with most other church concerts here in Lutheran Finland. The choir's church concerts have mostly sacral repertoires, but they are arranged by the choir(s) and have no prayers, nor pastors' welcoming words. Usually there was no reminder of this tradition. –LPfi (talk) 20:17, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

OK, so I guess this varies from place to place. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:20, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Special:Diff/4644547 on Riau Malay phrasebook

I think what was being conveyed there by "[a]s the second-largest multilingual country after Papua New Guinea", was PNG having more languages spoken than Indonesia (which is true – over 800 languages are spoken in Papua New Guinea!), not the fact that it's larger than Indonesia, both in terms of size and population.

Anyway, Happy Easter – I hope your Good Friday mass yesterday went well :-).

--SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:00, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. It was good to do. It was actually my first time playing a Good Friday mass, and it was a very different experience from playing celebratory masses on Christmas or Easter. Happy Easter to you! I get what you're saying about PNG vs. Indonesia, but it was not clearly stated. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:41, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, that statement was unclear at best. I'm glad to hear your Good Friday mass went well! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Renaming of Allahabad

You reverted my edit. Please have a look at this [[w:Talk:Prayagraj]]. A consensus was already raised there. And the conclusion was to move the page to Prayagraj. JaggaDaaku (talk) 05:44, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

There's no need to reply in two places, but thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:04, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

User:Korosh Ardeshir Gabriele Rokni

Please delete This user page, it’s created by a globally banned user. Airtransat236 (talk) 23:44, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

How do you know? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:45, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Per m:Special:CentralAuth/Korosh Ardeshir Gabriele Rokni, whatever LTA goes by the name "HoY" is probably the one that's globally banned. There's a list on m:List of globally banned users, but I couldn't find this specific LTA, FWIW. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:17, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Siliguri

Subject: listing for a hotel. In addition to stating the style of the hotel, I noted what attractions it is convenient for. You allowed the mention of the style and cuisine, but felt that noting that is convenient for the city airport is considered touting. What is the logic behind that assement? In reality, people leaving on early morning flights will very likely look for a hotel based on the fact that it convenient for the airport. I also mentioned that it is convenient for the city's university, which for proseptive students or parents of students is probably more useful to know than the style of the hotel or the type of cusine served. So, I ask again, why is stating information regarding convenience considered touting, whereas information on the architechtural style of the hotel not? Thank you. SingyeDzong

Let's leave discussion on your user talk page, so that we don't have discussions in two places. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:47, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I replied on my page. Thank you. SingyeDzong|talk

hbs.wikivoyage

Regarding your comment on User talk:Zblace, hbs.wikivoyage is the Serbo–Croatian Wikivoyage that's in the Wikimedia Incubator as of writing this – see incubator:Wy/hbs/Glavna stranica. The reason why I'm posting this here is because I didn't want to derail the discussion on that page. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:35, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:57, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

AppalachianCentrist

Is AppalachianCentrist really LibMod? Special:CentralAuth/AppalachianCentrist seems to indicate that this is a user in good standing on enwiki, but then again, I wasn't around during the times of LibMod to know what their editing patterns were like. cc @SelfieCity: --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:24, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

The user's edit history on WV and WP doesn't look like Libmod to me. The username is vaguely reminiscent, but that could be a coincidence. It would be good to know SC's thought process (if he can remember; I doubt I would!) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:07, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

You're talking about the user who complained on their user talk page, which I deleted, about being unfairly blocked? Who else would they be? If you have any doubts, read User talk:AppalachianCentrist. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:17, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

TBF, the only reason why I thought this might not be LibMod was because the account in question isn't globally locked (while LibMod is). But again, as I said, I wasn't around in 2018 so I'll leave it up to you guys (I trust whatever judgment you guys make :-)). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:44, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

No, I'm not seeing it. "Who else would they be?" - Uh, they could be literally anyone. Since when was complaining about being blocked evidence of identity? You'd expect everyone who didn't want to be blocked to argue back, regardless of whether the block was justified.

Maybe you or SC could address which of the user's edits on WP or WV are reminiscent of LibMod? ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:48, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Can't you see content was: "== Ban removal == SelfieCity (talk · contribs), It has been over two years since I got an "indefinite block" that was in my opinion, was the wrong approach. I have been banned indefinitely even though I was editing in good faith. I am asking for this ban to be removed. I am requesting this in order to get...

That could be literally anyone? How many users do we block indefinitely for reasons other than their being spambots, repeat touters or vandals? Who else can you name? And who else has complained (repeatedly) in socks about being banned? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:34, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

In addition, consider the username itself. It's really obvious, but if you insist on having this discussion, please continue it somewhere other than my user talk page while linking this thread, and start a thread at Wikivoyage talk:User ban nominations, where we can have a long, drawn-out, unpleasant discussion of this individual again. Or you and others can. Nothing personal, but I'm not willing to participate in this further. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:38, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

It's probably best you don't participate, if your reaction to a simple question is so dismissive. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:09, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Now, you're intentionally provoking me? Name me one other user this could plausibly be. Or don't, and stop posting about this on my user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:47, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Also, I think you are not understanding me. Dealing with fascist, anti-Semitic users and then renewed debates about whether to stop banning them is emotionally scarring to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:52, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I am genuinely sorry for any hurt caused. You don't have to participate further. Since we're being honest, I found your two earlier replies quite rude and dismissive of my and SHB's questions, but perhaps I misinterpreted your tone. If so, I'm sorry for that too.

It is not now, nor will it ever be, my intention to yield any ground to any LTA, particularly to a racist bellend like Libmod. Fascism disgusts me. It's not welcome on Wikivoyage or in any civilised space.

But when I believe an innocent third user has been misidentified and unjustly banned by our team, I have to speak up.

I'll say no more about this on your talk page.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:55, 31 May 2023 (UTC).

Thanks. I completely understand your motives. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:23, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

(general reply to everyone involved) Continuing on what ThunderingTyphoons!, here's a bit of anecdotal experience of me in the shoes of someone who's been erroneously blocked on bgwiki last December (for bot-identified vandalism before being unblocked with the reasoning "няма основание за блокиране -- добросъвестен потребител", Google translated to "no grounds for blocking -- bona fide user"): I would have said something similar (except I asked a bit more politely and gave actual reasoning why), but wouldn't it be good to at least have a discussion with the user to confirm whether they're LibMod or not (preferably on Meta)? Again, take my statement with a pinch of salt because I'm not in a position to make a judgment since I wasn't around in 2018 – I'll leave it to TT!, Ikan and SC. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:10, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

188.12.182.29

Smells like Luchy04 to you? Their editing pattern looks very similar to Luchy04, but they claim they're not Luchy04. I've temporarily blocked them from editing mainspace, but could you take a look into 188.12.182.29 (talk · contribs)? TIA, --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 00:31, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you, but in any case, it's obvious that putting the same text in multiple articles is bad. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:07, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Native Hawaiians

I know this is somewhat tangential, but is it a common misconception among Americans that the Native Hawaiians are Japanese? My Chinese colleague was telling me that Hawaii was part of Japan before the U.S. conquered it, and that the native people of Hawaii are Japanese, and she said that she learnt this from her American husband. For context, she watches Fox News every night with her husband, so I wonder if this misconception might be particularly common among right-wingers. (And she has some other pretty controversial views too; for instance, she thinks black people are dumb by nature, and she also supports colonialism and Apartheid because she believes only white people know how to govern a country, and non-whites needs to be shown the ropes by white people in order to be capable of good governance). The dog2 (talk) 21:24, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I feel confident in saying there is no such common belief, but I couldn't tell you what habitual Fox viewers commonly believe about Native Hawaiians. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:52, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I see. Well, the world is such an interesting place. I never imagined I'd meet a white supremacist who is a not white. Luckily for her, her English isn't good enough to express those views to my other colleagues, so I'm the only one who has to put up with them. And for that matter, I have conservative American friends, and even they find her views on black people to be ridiculous. The dog2 (talk) 23:09, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

There was a Jewish Nazi in the U.S. Outliers and self-haters are always around. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:21, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

FDR Drive

Isn't FDR drive classified as a parkway under New York state law? And speaking of which, I remember there is the Garden State Parkway in New Jersey too. So perhaps parkway is a term specific to New York and New Jersey. The dog2 (talk) 21:34, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I have no idea what the FDR Drive is classified as under New York State law, and almost nobody else does, either, so how is that relevant to English language varieties? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:35, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia calls it a parkway too. But in any case, the term "parkway" is used at least in New York state and New Jersey, and perhaps other eastern states too, so the question is, what type of controlled-access highway is called a parkway. I don't think Americans use it as a generic term like "freeway", but I could be wrong. The dog2 (talk) 02:38, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't think we use it generically in spoken New York English. The generic word is "highway," though highways could be toll roads or not. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:48, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

In any case, I think we should have a brief description as to what a "parkway" is given that visitors to New York state and New Jersey will likely encounter the term if they drive. The dog2 (talk) 06:45, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Parkways are probably most commonly highways that have a strip of park in the median and/or the sides, but that's not always the case. Sometimes, parkways are not highways at all (consider w:Utopia Parkway (Queens)). Read w:Parkway, and after you do, I think you'll understand that we should not try to give a vernacular definition of the word. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

How about just saying that some roads, including controlled-access highways, that are barred to commerical vehicles may be called parkways? The dog2 (talk) 13:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

If the word is in the name. Why does that bear mentioning? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:10, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ So how would an average New Yorker describe FDR Drive or the Garden State Parkway then? The dog2 (talk) 17:47, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Either use the name or the word "highway." Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:36, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Infallibility in Islam

To my knowledge (I might be wrong), Sunnis consider the Caliphs to be infallible, while Shia consider their Imams to be infallible. Also, Sunnis believe that the Caliphs must come from Muhammad's tribe, while Shias believe that Imams must be the direct descendants of Muhammad through his daughter Fatima and son-in-law Ali. Ibadis instead believe that any adult male can be their Imam so long as he is well-versed in the scriptures, is morally upright, and has the support of the community leaders. So if it turns out he isn't fit to be leader, Ibadi theology allows for him to be deposed at the discretion of the community leaders. The dog2 (talk) 15:40, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I like the Ibadi take on this. But the thing is, historically, there have been various times when claims to be a caliph were not universally accepted by Sunnis. Didn't all the Ottoman emperors claim to be caliphs, and doesn't the king of Morocco claim to be? And of course there were the self-styled caliph leaders of the "Islamic State" terrorist organization. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:31, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

So how do you think we should write the section on Ibadis Islam then? Even the Shi'as don't universally recognise all 12 Imams. And the vast majority of Sunnis do not recognise the leader of ISIS as Caliph. So yes, I get your point on the complexity of this issue. Most Sunnis right now only recognise the legitimacy of the caliphs of the Golden Age of Islam, but not the claims of the others who came after that. Support for the Ottoman sultan's claim to the title of Caliph may have been significant in its time, but the vast majority of Sunnis today don't support that claim. The dog2 (talk) 22:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I really don't know. It may be too complicated to cover in a travel guide. Though I think it's mainly the 4 "rightly guided" caliphs that are considered unquestionable, not the Golden Age ones. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:58, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I think for a travel guide, all we need to cover is the main thing that makes Ibadis distinct form both Sunnis and Shias. Details about theology would be out of scope. The dog2 (talk) 00:40, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

But what actually is the distinction? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:23, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I'm not an expert on Islam, but from what I have been reading, it appears that Ibadis believe that the selection of their Imams should be purely meritocratic, and that bloodline should not matter at all. This is unlike Sunni Islam where Caliphs must be from Muhammad's tribe, or Shi'a Islam where their Imams must be a direct descendant of Muhammad through his daughter Fatima. The dog2 (talk) 05:02, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

OK, if so, maybe that can be mentioned. It doesn't seem travel-relevant, so it's questionable to include, but at least it can be stated in a single sentence. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:17, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Special:Diff/4706826

Apologies about the redlink, but mw:Manual:Noindex is what I wanted to link. Basically, adding __NOINDEX__ prevents an article from appearing in search engine results, and we don't want joke articles to. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:38, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I see. Go ahead and re-add that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:09, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Question

Hi there, I wonder if you could help me with something ? on this site the description of Brighton is perfect, but on Wikipedia it’s not ! and I’m wondering if you can help change this ? All descriptions state Brighton as a seaside resort ( which it is) but this needs to be changed to either city or city of Brighton and Hove. This could be added as a citation https://www.visitbrighton.com/ On the lead description it states “ Brighton is a seaside resort and one of the two main areas of the city of Brighton and Hove. But I feel this would be correct . “Brighton is a seaside resort and formally known as the city of Brighton and Hove. With this citation added on formally https://www.kingseducation.com/kings-life/10-fun-facts-about-brighton#:~:text=An%20important%20first%20fact%20is,two%20to%20be%20separate%20towns If you can help that would be great if not that’s fine too :) Thank you. Greenfrog23 (talk) 14:56, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for contacting me, but I'm puzzled by your request. Are you unable to edit Wikipedia? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:49, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes unfortunately I got banned, it was very harsh tbh, I understand if you can’t help, I don’t want to get you in trouble. If you can’t help, what do you think I could do about this as it really bothers me not being right? Thanks. Greenfrog23 (talk) 17:55, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

No, I understand. Don't be too upset if I don't prioritize this, but I'll definitely consider checking the links and possibly making the changes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:12, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

No that’s fine and thank you so much I really appreciate your help but like I say no worries if not, thank you. Have a nice day. Greenfrog23 (talk) 19:50, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

You too! Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:20, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Bogota article borough section and question

Hey Ikak thanks for your feedback on the Bogota article! I wondered if you could provide me with an answer, so you mentioned that the lead for the boroughs in the Bogota article was to dense the way I wrote and that I should save some information for the articles themselves. So should I still include the information specific to each borough in their respective article? I also wanted to ask if I wanted to add a picture to a section that dosen't have that is that something I could do? Cause I was thinking of adding an image from wikimedia so...If you could help me with those two things I would greatly appreciatte it! Thanks for your help. 149.19.41.100 02:02, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Could you also tell me the process of how to add a new image to an article that wasn't there before. 149.19.41.100 02:03, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Bogota article borough section and question

Hey Ikak thanks for your feedback on the Bogota article! I wondered if you could provide me with an answer, so you mentioned that the lead for the boroughs in the Bogota article was to dense the way I wrote and that I should save some information for the articles themselves. So should I still include the information specific to each borough in their respective article? I also wanted to ask if I wanted to add a picture to a section that dosen't have that is that something I could do? Cause I was thinking of adding an image from wikimedia so..Could you also tell me the process of how to add a new image to an article that wasn't there before. If you could help me with those two things I would greatly appreciatte it! Thanks for your help 149.19.42.35 02:07, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly what I mean: include more details about boroughs in the district articles, though even there, try to keep it readable. The Chicago district guides, many of which are star articles, are great examples that you might consider emulating. On images, yes, the Bogotá article could definitely use several more images. The easiest way to add images is to find pictures you like on Wikimedia Commons and use the following format: [[File:(Name)|thumb|(Brief explanatory text)]]. Here's an example of a thumbnail in the Bogotá article: [[File:Tropicario at the Bogota botanical gardens.png|thumb|Bogota's Tropicario Bio-Dome in the Botanical Gardens]]. Of course, you should also feel free to upload any photos you shoot to Commons! If you want to do that, start here. Let me know if you have any other questions. Best, Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:18, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Most images on Wikipedia are in fact on Commons. Try just linking them without any reference to Wikipedia, like the examples IK gives above. If that doesn't work, then check the file description page on Wikipedia (click the thumbnail – and "more information" if you are directed to the "image viewer"). If it says the image is unfree, then read Wikivoyage:Non-free content or try to find another image. If the image is free, then it can be uploaded on Commons; ask for help if you don't know the procedure. –LPfi (talk) 09:12, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your help! I will let you know how it goes. Yes, I feel like the main article definitely needs some more pictures especially coming from a city that is just so vast and has so many interesting thing to do. But for example some of the borough articles such as Suba (The largest borough in Bogota) which has a population of well over a million and a half citizens, (nearly a city in itself), only has one picture. So I feel like the borough articles are definitely lacking some information, but even more so pictures. I'm surprised at how fast you answered my question...I must say I expected it to take much longer. 138.43.105.132 23:36, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Ikak, I hope you are well. I wanted to ask you what you think of some edits I did to the Bogota page. I added more information on the city's sections. Well Bogota is typically divided into 6 geographical sections both for cultural and geographical, as well as socio-economic reasons. These 6 geographical sections are in turn divided into 20 boroughs each with it's mayors and local government office, which in turn are divided into neighborhoods. I added more information on the six sections of the capital district. I also wanted to comment, i feel like this information on the city's structure would also be helpful to include somwhere in the article. 149.19.40.246 00:25, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Please feel free to tell me if the think the edits are too long or not necesary. As always, I appreciate your imput. 149.19.40.246 00:26, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Because you bolded the areas of the city, it doesn't feel so much like a long block of black text, so it isn't bad and will probably be fine after some small edits. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:30, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Hey Ikak, just wanted to ask what you thought of some edits I did to the understand section of Bogota? 149.19.54.231 00:41, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Film that might interest you.

I just came across this film trailer on YouTube: [56]. It's a Czech film about Josef Myslivecek. I don't know when it will be screened in the U.S., but I thought you might be interested. The dog2 (talk) 15:54, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll have a look. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:01, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello

I'm sorry to hear that you injured your thumb yesterday. Hope you have a speedy recovery (and rest well)! --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 00:16, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:55, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Rural area

Hey, I had posted this in the pub and then I was too embarrassed about it so I deleted it. If you have any insight, I'd like to know if it was right to mark Tibesti Mountains (a mountain range in the Sahara) and Ennedi Plateau (a UNESCO site) as "rural areas". That was the template I used. But it feels a bit wrong because there is no "stay safe" section, etc., so it feels like I'm marking a rural area in a Scandinavian country or something. In any case, my question is, is outlining these as "rural areas" correct or could you suggest something better? Thanks. Brycehughes (talk) 11:19, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@Brychehughes: A Stay safe section is not a requirement, but it can absolutely be included if there is a safety concern. Hope that helps :-). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:48, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@SHB2000: I think my larger thing is like, is this stuff a "rural area"... no right? How much does this shit matter? These are kinda n00b, pedantic questions I know. Does Rural Area have any kind of significance beyond its default sections? (It has a weird template at the bottom, which I don't like) Brycehughes (talk) 12:03, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Eh, not really re significance – I'm pretty sure it was meant to resemble something in between a city and a park article, but nothing else, really. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Hahaha I love/hate how everything is so cool here. Fine, a f'ing rural area it is. I'm used to the Wikipedia battlegrounds where you fight to the death on the minutia. And then somebody would angrily yell at me when I got it wrong! Maybe I'm traumatised ha. Brycehughes (talk) 12:24, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Nah, you're not alone. There are moments on Wikipedia where I feel like "fuck this, why does this seem excessively bureaucratic?" --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:34, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

The hours down the toilet mate. I got done on this w:Tibesti Mountains due to "close paraphrasing". I was like, well they phrased it better than I ever fucking could, and WHO CARES. Anyway... Brycehughes (talk) 12:44, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Exactly – it's not like shit's engraved in stone, anyway. But anyway... --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:47, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:I will WP:FIGHT WP:YOU to the WP:VIRTUAL death over whether WP:THIS is a WP:TRUE rural – oh, hey, sorry, wrong site. Never mind!

One of the things I appreciate about Wikivoyage is that we can maintain standards and keep treating each other like human beings. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:37, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I hope we do that and will continue to do so. Thanks for handling this, folks. I really have nothing to add to the discussion on rural areas, except that if it's rural and an area, that's an appropriate template to use. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:10, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks all! Brycehughes (talk) 00:15, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Nagorno-Karabakh

To your point, I understand the Azerbaijani government has offered to let the ethnic Armenians stay provided they accept Azerbaijani citizenship, and has promised to let them continue practising Christianity. But because the ethnic Armenians do not believe the Azerbaijani government, virtually the entire population has left for Armenia. What I do know is that in the first Nagorno-Karabakh War, the ethnic Azeris were ethnically cleansed from Nagorno Karabakh, while ethnic Armenians were ethnically cleansed from Azerbaijan proper. During Soviet times, the area had an Armenian majority but also a long-established Azeri minority. The dog2 (talk) 22:25, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Right. No disagreements. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:52, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Zhuzhou

Hello, first of all, thank you for your corrections and questions. Realgar wine is a kind of white wine or rice wine brewed by grinding it into powder. Drinking realgar wine is a folk custom during the Dragon Boat Festival in China. Yuanxiao is one of the traditional Chinese snacks. It is called "Yuanxiao" in northern China and "tangyuan" in the south. Eating Yuanxiao is also a festival custom. Laba porridge is a porridge made from many traditional ingredients. Drinking Laba porridge is a custom during the Laba Festival. Regarding the Qixi Festival, my description is not accurate enough and I will make changes. Finally, the Spring Festival I wrote about is a traditional Chinese festival, but the customs are unique to Zhuzhou. Zhongxxin (talk) 04:29, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Zhongxxin, but it doesn't really help much to explain things to me on my user talk page. What's necessary is to give clear descriptions on the relevant destination article page(s). But "many traditional ingredients" doesn't tell me much. Which ingredients, for example? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Classification of Baghdadi Jews

Do you know if this group of Jews is Sephardic or Mizrachi? Most Singaporean and Hong Kong Jews are descended from Baghdadi Jewish immigrants. Of course, these days the local Jewish population in both Singapore and Hong Kong are far outnumbered by expatriate Jews from Western countries, so you're more likely to meet an American Jew than a Singaporean Jew in Singapore. I didn't even know there were Singaporean Jews until I met one in the military. The dog2 (talk) 00:30, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I have no expertise on this, but I assume they're Mizrachi, and that seems to be confirmed by w:Baghdadi Jews, though I really wouldn't be surprised if some Sephardim or even Ashkenazim took refuge in Baghdad at certain points. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:57, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, music person

I don't know why, but this edit tickled me. It's the little things sometimes. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:38, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

If only taxi drivers stopped scamming me :-(. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:07, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

At least in New York, it's usually fake taxi drivers that scam people. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:37, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

It wasn't bad at all in Sydney until COVID hit and Ubers took over. I won't feel bad the slightest if the taxi industry completely dies considering every cab ride of mine ever since 2020 has resulted in a verbal argument of some kind before a nopology from the taxi company. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:06, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

I just wanted to ask you about the sensitivity of this. At least from the mainstream media, it appears that the official American position is that any and all criticism of Israel is by definition anti-Semitic, and that anyone who does not support anything and everything Israel does unconditionally is by definition an anti-Semite. Would you say that would be the default position of American Jews and Christians? Yes, I am aware that anti-Zionist Jews exist (like Neturei Karta, and some Jewish academics like Noam Chomsky), and correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand they are very much a minority and considered by most Jews to be race traitors. In real life, I usually deliberately avoid the topic when I know that someone is Jewish given the sensitivity of it, but I just wonder if you can tell me what the general consensus on the issue is. I had a Palestinian roommate as a undergrad, so I've heard the other side of the story too. The dog2 (talk) 16:20, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Where are you getting this from? It's bizarre! Hardly anyone thinks that every criticism of Israel means a person is a Jew-hater! Have you noticed how vociferous debate is in Israel? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:38, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

That's just the impression I get whenever I hear American politicians talk about Israel on TV. Whenever I hear criticism of Israeli government policy, it's usually on left-wing alternative media on YouTube, in which you do have some Jews who criticise Israeli government policy towards the Palestinians (like Sam Seder), but on mainstream media, anyone who criticises Israeli government policy is immediately shut down and called an anti-Semite. I saw a clip from an interview on MSNBC where the president of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) demanded that Mehdi Hasan be taken off the air because of his public support for the Palestinian cause. I also have seen a mini documentary about Neturei Karta on YouTube, were they are seen marching in pro-Palestinian protests, and Jewish counter-protesters will show up and denounce them as race traitors. As I said, I usually avoid the topic when I know that the person I'm speaking to is Jewish to avoid any possible offence, so I don't know what the general sentiment among American Jews in general is.

And with regard to Israeli politics, I'm not familiar with it, but my understanding is that general public sentiment has been shifting further and further to the right as time goes on, so while in the early 1990s about half of Israelis were open to a two-state solution, right now a solid majority of Israelis are vehemently opposed to any compromise with the Palestinians, and wants Israel to just annex all the land and kick the Palestinians out. I know there have been pro-democracy protests opposing Netanyahu's judicial reform, but those have nothing to do with Palestinian rights. The dog2 (talk) 22:18, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

yeah dude, please read this post from this ex-CIA competent analyst, watch the videos, read the comments, your sources might benefit some more variety. Ibaman (talk) 22:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The dog2: "That's just the impression I get". This is exactly the problem. You hear something, you read something, and then you decide that it is important to share your "impressions" with travellers about sensitive issues that you know very little about. Many editors have asked you to stop adding information about politics, history, and "sensitive ussues", because often you are just wrong. The Israel/Palestine conflict is hugely complex, and readers of our travel guide will not benefit from your naive "impressions". Wikivoyage is made worse when you add misinformation. Please just stick to adding practical travel information instead of making work for other editors who have to monitor your constant tinkering with politics, "sensitive issues", etc. Ground Zero (talk) 06:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Also, there's a huge distance between demonstrating in favor of Hamas and criticizing the Israeli government! Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

What's your view on the likes of The Young Turks and Kyle Kulinski then? Most of the mainstream media considers them to be anti-Semites because of their criticism of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Is there a general consensus in American society that anyone who opposes Zionism is ipso facto a Jew hater? The dog2 (talk) 18:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

TYT are insignificant and not worth thinking about. I have no idea who Kyle Kulinski is and have no interest in being informed about him. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:27, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm also really not interested in spending time discussing Zionism, but you should ask yourself the question: if someone is opposed to nationalism only when it's by Jews, what does that make them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• "Is there a general consensus in American society that anyone (...)"

coudn't help having a big "wtf"+"rofl" moment here.

tell us, dude, what you think, is Recep Tayyip Erdogan an ally of Israel, selling them Kurdish petrol behind NATO's back, or is he their sworn enemy?

If only the world was as simple and easy to read as you wish it to be. Ibaman (talk) 18:37, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

@Ibaman: To answer your question, it doesn't surprise me that this is happening. It's long been known that the leaders of the Muslim countries have used the Palestinian issue as a distraction from their own domestic policy failures, and they may publicly declare that they support the Palestinians, but in reality they don' give a hoot. (And by the way, I know that Western government leaders do the same thing too, albeit using different issues, so I'm not saying it's only the Muslim countries that do that.) The dog2 (talk) 00:44, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Uro Islands

Hey there, since you're the editor I think of when I think of admins and since there's no established practice for moves, do you think it's time to move Uro Islands to Uros Islands per Talk:Uro Islands#Move to Uros Islands? I am unable to do it myself, nor do I have any idea if it'd be appropriate to do at this point. Thanks. Brycehughes (talk) 10:12, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

No time right now. I'll check in after work if no-one has taken care of it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:50, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Seems Ground Zero fixed it. –LPfi (talk) 18:43, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Good. I forgot about it again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:39, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you all. Brycehughes (talk) 03:30, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Revert on the Discover template

Good evening Ikan! Was this edit maybe by accident? Ypsilon (talk) 18:02, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, must have been. Sorry. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:24, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your copy edits on Finland. I think the nuances got better, in addition to the language. –LPfi (talk) 07:30, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Good. I'm glad they were helpful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:14, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Baroque or classical

Hi, I just wanted to ask you if you would classify this opera as baroque or classical, based on your ears as a professional classical musician. The advertising materials describe it as baroque, but the year it was composed (1768) is typically considered to be part of the classical period. My own ears seem to find it at some sort of a transition phase where it has somewhat moved away from the baroque style of Handel and Vivaldi, but is not quite the classical style of Mozart and Haydn yet. The dog2 (talk) 05:02, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

That's really beautiful. I've listened up to 9:45. It reminds me somewhat of Pergolesi. It sounds Rococo to me. I don't think it's Baroque, but I'm not sure it's quite at the point Gluck got to in his neo-classic opera reforms. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Gluck's Orfeo ed Euridice was composed in 1762 I think, which would be before this particular opera. I guess it would take time for Gluck's reforms to become standard among all composers, and this particular composer hadn't caught on yet. The dog2 (talk) 13:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

It was very popular, but different composers do different things at the same time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:25, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

By the way, I've also checked out some of Handel's other operas, and I've noticed that he uses French-style overtures for most of his Italian operas, and even has ballets incorporated into some of his Italian operas, which is unusual because having a ballet as part of an opera is characteristic of French and not Italian opera, like in the works of Jean-Philippe Rameau. Is that what you mean when you say that Handel was a progressive composer for his time? The dog2 (talk) 03:32, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

No, although those are good observations and make sense. But I would have said that because he deemphasized counterpoint much of the time, although he was a great contrapuntalist. More homophonic textures that emphasized the top and bass lines and often used simple, pleasant harmonies are what became the Rococo style. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:23, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Prophecies of the Messiah in Judaism

Don't the prophecies in the Bible say that the Messiah will be from King David's lineage? And for Christians, Jesus being born in Bethlehem is of huge significance because that is seen to fulfill the prophecy of the Messiah being from King David's lineage, given that King David's family came from Bethlehem according to the Bible. I don't know the details of what Jews think the Messiah will do when he comes, but what I've heard is the belief that he will defeat the enemies of Israel and re-establish the Temple of Jerusalem. The dog2 (talk) 05:26, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

The Gospel of John makes no sense in considering Jesus the Son of God and yet including a genealogy from King David through Joseph, but that aside, Judaism is not a religion based on literal readings of the Bible, and ignoring secular Jews like me who don't believe in a Messiah at all, there are some Jews who believe a Messianic Age brought about by collective action is more likely than a single man saving us, and some of them are Orthodox. However, what is travel-relevant about any of this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:31, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

If we know of any sites connected with Jewish eschatology, those should certainly be listed, but I'm not sure of any since my knowledge of Jewish eschatology is very limited. But that aside, isn't eschatology considered to be a core part of any religion? We do describe the key tenets of each religion in the Understand section of our articles on religion. The dog2 (talk) 05:50, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't think descent from David is crucial to Judaism, but of course if you have two Jews, you have at least three opinions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:10, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Blocks of IP addresses

Hey Ikan Kekek, I noticed you just blocked Special:Contributions/174.251.161.238 for three months with talk page and email access disabled. In my opinion we should avoid disabling talk page and email access, especially for IP blocks, unless there's a good reason to believe the vandal has abused them, for the reasons discussed at Wikivoyage:How to handle unwanted edits:

"IP addresses should be blocked only for as long as they are likely to remain assigned to the same person. We don't want to block other people trying to use the address. Block periods should be shorter than above if there is a real risk that other people will be blocked. It is better to block an IP address for a shorter period and then reimpose another shorter block without notice if problem editing resumes after the earlier block expires. Avoid disabling talk page and email access unless absolutely necessary, as this makes it difficult for other users accidentally caught up in the block to draw attention to their predicament." —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:32, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Do what you think best, but this is a repeat vandal who posts really gross crap with one IP address after another, so I don't want them to post anything more or email anyone. Did you look at the deleted "articles"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:07, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Yeah, I've blocked this vandal several times too. I've made a few range blocks that I'm hoping will make it feel less like whack-a-mole.

I agree with you that there's no value in the vandal posting anything else or emailing anyone. My concern is about collateral damage – if we disable email and talk page access and the IP address is reassigned to an innocent user, that user will have no way to tell us about their predicament. This is especially a concern because the block is so long. (In my opinion, three months is pointlessly long in this case, because as you said the IP address seems to be reassigned frequently – the vandal will have a new IP address by tomorrow. I'm hoping the range blocks may help stop them even with the changing IP addresses.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:16, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

OK, I understand. I'll just add that I've previously given harassment as a block reason for this miscreant. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:19, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

Wish you a very happy Christmas! :-) Haoreima (talk) 19:00, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Same to you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:37, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

If you don't mind me asking, are you playing for any mass service this year? Merry Christmas to you as well (my card is absent on this page since I didn't want to post the same message here and on Commons). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 23:28, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I did. I got home around 3 AM. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:24, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm always amazed with the level of commitment you musicians put into events like these. Hope you had a good rest afterwards, though! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 09:46, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

It's a pleasure. Yes, I can rest on Christmas Day this time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:29, 25 December 2023 (UTC)