Wikivoyage:Travellers' pub

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View new changes on WatchlistEdit

The message "View new changes since ..." does not appear anymore on the Watchlist, since yesterday. It still appears on Wikipedia. I tried it in several browsers. --FredTC (talk) 09:59, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

It shows for me. Do you have some security extension across browsers? I haven't restarted my browser for several days, so if there is some update to the javascript I might still be running the old version. –LPfi (talk) 11:48, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Template:Ping should now be able to take in 15 names instead of 5.Edit

I've just increased the capabilities of Template:Ping from 5 people to 15 people. This means that to ping more than 5 names, you'll no longer have to use two or three separate templates and you can now use one. Thanks!, SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 05:53, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Assigning a code to each barncompassEdit

I was just wondering if I should add a code containing 2-4 letters. l to each barncompass I create. This way, it's less typing, and the use of slangs (e.g. Kiwi) are close to zero. I've done this to Australian State ones (e.g. BCNSW or BCSA). While there may be duplicates like SA meaning South Australia or South Africa (which can be RSA). This plan doesn't include the original one and Vat's continent barncompasses which can be left alone. Should I do this, or is it too confusing? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 05:48, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

And to clarify, these codes are mostly derived from internet codes. So BCCA will go to Canada and not California. That can have BCCAL. Washington would have to be BCWASH. (WA taken up by Western Australia) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:56, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Somehow I thought barncompass is something special to "give"... If you plan to spread them so much you can't be even bothered to write a few appreciation words manually, then what's the point? You can also just click "thanks" in the page history, you know... :) -- 06:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
No, that's not the point. While I do not mind typing a few words, knowing each barncompass is difficult. For example, BCCA is easily identifiable as Canada. And if you realise, I only chose to expand this, as I feel like there's not enough thankfulness here. And a personalised one is always a much more appreciative one, rather than a simple one. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:55, 16 May 2021 (UTC) I explained the idea on my talk page, it is not removing the words typed after the barncompass, but to write the type of barncompass quicker as a lot more have been created recently. 18:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
tbh, I'd actually prefer a variable style barncompass (the idea that you explained). The problem comes when the original BC. So for example if the original one is meant to be blank, {{Barncompass|reason here}} and when you introduce the variables (e.g. {{Barncompass|AU|reason here}}), that can make it confusing. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:27, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000: Couldn't you just name the variable "Original"? Another option would be to number them (original: 1, Australian, 2 etc.) and put a list of numbers of the Template:Barncompass page. 15:06, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
I don't like having to look up codes, and I suppose others do neither. What about checking whether there is a second parameter and treat the first one depending on that? I suppose there haven't been any second parameters before. –LPfi (talk) 15:14, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
But if you leave it blank, it'll come up as an error. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 21:26, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Depending on your code. It should handle both variants. –LPfi (talk) 05:46, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Requests for comment regarding two proposed mergersEdit

I tagged two articles with {{merge}}, and they show up at Wikivoyage:Requests for comment#Merge proposals, but as this happens without editing that page, I believe it does not show up on the Watchlist of interested parties, so here is your official notice. I believe that Talk:Quinta do Lago and Talk:Vilamoura should be merged and redirected to Loulé. Please discuss if you wish to do so. Thanks! Nelson Ricardo (talk) 03:42, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Problems with listings on Portuguese WikivoyageEdit

Problem with Wikivoyage's template in Portuguese, anyone know who could help? pt:Wikivoyage:Itens da lista de acomodação.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 13:56, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Felipe da Fonseca: I won't be able to assist with anything template-related, but it would be really helpful if you could give as much detail of the problem as possible, so people reading know whether they can help or not.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons!: hi: the first variable, "name", does not appear on the page, it is hidden. Thanks,--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 15:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@Felipe da Fonseca:, fixed :) -- 18:40, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Many thanks,! I had noticed a while back but failed to say anything (hangs head in vergonha). It was the main reason I did not contribute on pt, and I suspect that may be part of why that community is practically dead. While I'm here, I'll mention that I don't see an Edit link on listings. You can see this at pt:Utilizador:Nricardo/Sandbox. Thanks again! Nelson Ricardo (talk) 19:26, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, one more thing: the images to add listings from the editor toolbar look messed up. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 19:30, 16 May 2021 (UTC) Thank you very much. I will try to follow that wiki and reactivate the community. --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 19:35, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
I'll try to summon @Andyrom75:, he's the local "listing editor" guru :) Perhaps he'll know right away - it seems it's done by some javascript magic that processes span's with class listing-metadata-items, so maybe you have old listing editor JS?. And good luck restarting pt.WV to you all! I can imagine it won't be easy, considering how hard it is making HebVoy lift off... :( -- 20:20, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
andree, I haven't understood which is the current issue.
Ricardo (or anyone else), is there a test page where I can clearly the issue? --Andyrom75 (talk) 21:46, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@Andyrom75, please let me know if pt:Utilizador:Nricardo/Sandbox isn't sufficient. It has sleep (durma), eat (coma), and see (veja) listings. Thanks! Nelson Ricardo (talk) 21:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@Andyrom75: the 'edit' button in pt.wikivoyage doesn't show up next to listings. It seemed it could be some old/improperly configured JS code? If you have time/will to check it... :) -- 07:03, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
andree, Ricardo, thanks, now I got the problem :-)
The first thing I've seen is that pt:voy use a very old version of listing editor. I suggest to use the last one. Since I'm not an admin on pt:voy I'll try to use the right one in my personal page (without any kind of translation). If it works, an admin can translate and move the script in the most appropriate location. --Andyrom75 (talk) 15:11, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Ricardo, see the pages I've created. Replicate it on pt:voy and you'll see that everything will work as in pt:Utilizador:Andyrom75/Sandbox :-) PS I can see the [edit] link in your sandbox but listing editor doesn't work becasue currently my script is configured for en:voy, you have to customized it first. --Andyrom75 (talk) 15:55, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
@Andyrom75, Thank you for looking into this. I cannot see the Edit link in either your sandbox nor mine. Could it be a preferences setting? Or maybe the custom code applies to your account only? Do you see it from a private/incognito window? (At any rate, I'm just an end user without special privileges, so I won't be able to act on anything that needs extra rights. Also, I'm mostly clueless on the code.) Nelson Ricardo (talk) 22:52, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Ricardo, sorry for my late reply. As previously said, I'm not an admin on pt:voy, so I can't change pt:voy config files. I've added the new script on my pt:voy account, if you want to test it, copy the same on your account. However, if you want to allow all the user to benefit of such script, you have to engage DARIO SEVERI that is the only active admin on pt:voy. --Andyrom75 (talk) 08:11, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you, @Andyrom75. I'll try to ping him here.
Olá, @DARIO SEVERI. My written Portuguese is assim-assim, so I hope it's alright if I address you in English. Please see the above conversation. Lusophone Wikivoyagers, including myself, would be grateful if you would please investigate and resolve this issue. Obrigado! Nelson Ricardo (talk) 08:43, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi @Andyrom75, @Nricardo: and @Felipe da Fonseca:, I became an administrator there to help mainly to eliminate spam because I understand very little of the technical part. I read the above discussion and the difficulty is it on the pt:Wikivoyage:Itens da lista de acomodação? I created this sandbox there [1] and despite using an old system it seems that it still works. In order not to disturb the colleagues here, I suggest discussing the subject there. Regards. DARIO SEVERI (talk) 10:22, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
@Felipe da Fonseca: Where do I apply to become an administrator? I will help you there. I will soon realize a project with implications on Wikivoyage and I also want to be able to control things quickly (see: meta:Wikisul User Group/Projects). --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 11:05, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

There is another problematic error: when one opens the source code editor, there are some links in the taskbar to add the common templates automatically, but they appear, today, disfigured and it is not possible to understand their functions, can someone help?--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 16:15, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Guys, please, there is another strange problem: how do one control the categories? They seem to be added automatically... but are you adding categories in English... how do one add and remove them manually? Thanks.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 23:26, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

@Felipe da Fonseca, Most categories here are added by template. Look at Caldas da Rainha, for example. At the bottom there's a {{starcity}} template. It adds not only the box at the end of the article but also the following categories: "Star cities", "Star articles", "City articles", and "All destination articles". {{IsPartOf|Oeste}} adds the breadcrumb trail at the top of the page, as well as the "Oeste category". {{mapframe}} in the Get around section adds a dynamic map to the page and the adds the "Has mapframe" category. Each listing template adds a category such as "Has see listing", etc. You can get more info. at Wikivoyage:Categories (note: it's not up to date). Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:48, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
So I need to edit and change the templates? Correct? And how a add the phabricator task? Thanks, --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 23:55, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
w:Wikipedia:Bug reports and feature requests Nelson Ricardo (talk) 00:00, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
@Nelson Ricardo 2500: It seems that the categories are not being added by default, so I copied the whole page to my test area and they are gone: see here.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 00:13, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
I looked at the code for "Predefinição:Cidade guia" (even though I'm no expert). It looks like categories are added in the Main namespace, so they won't appear on "Utilizador:" pages. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 00:24, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

They are claiming that the problem with the categories is on this page. here--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 08:31, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Felipe, Dario, Ricardo, I renew my suggestion to implement the script in my pt:voy sandbox, into the Mediawiki config file, and afterwards, to apply the translation into Portuguese. Stop using the old unmaintained script, will facilitate to get support outside pt:voy. --Andyrom75 (talk) 10:55, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
here? Just answer there, thanks. @Andyrom75:.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 11:09, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Felipe, Andyrom75, Ricardo ... there is a colleague who is currently solving some of the problems there, he has a lot of knowledge of the technical part. DARIO SEVERI (talk) 12:57, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
@DARIO SEVERI: who? --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 13:07, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
He is Edu, he is one of the administrators at Wikinews. DARIO SEVERI (talk) 13:10, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

For those interested this discussion continued here.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 18:34, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Abuse Filter 39Edit

Admins with technical knowledge (plus any global admins or stewards who might be reading), please have a look at Abuse Filter 39, to discuss how we might combat one vandal more effectively. To the rest of the readership: I think you can understand why we can't share technical details of things we're doing to try to improve your reading experience in this way. However if you have technical expertise, let us know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:28, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Ikan Kekek - I'm not sure about the context in the linked discussion, but you need anything specific in this area I have enough technical knowledge to try and help. Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:11, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: I know something about abuse filters, depends on the context. I cannot edit the filter however. Leaderboard (talk) 21:14, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
The context is provided in my last edit of the comments about the filter at the link, and I would prefer not to go into specifics here if it's not essential to do so. Leaderboard, are you able to read the comments and reply to them at the link? Let us know if you need any more permissions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:37, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: I can read the comments, but not reply to them at the filter 39 link. Leaderboard (talk) 21:41, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
What permissions would you need to be able to reply? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:47, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Is there a way that we can give all global sysops the right to edit comments on abuse filter threads, and perhaps to edit the filters themselves? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:08, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
I don't know if there is a technical solution, but perhaps we could have an "emergency temporary sysop" as a workaround. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:25, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
I guess we'd need a steward to create such an option? It's not available to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:06, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: I could look into seeing if I can get meta:abuse filter maintainer, or otherwise you need to get consensus and file a phabricator task for an equivalent local role. Also, I'm not a global sysop - global sysops can edit abuse filters (which I can't). Or I can simply run for sysop here if you want. Leaderboard (talk) 06:34, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Not a bad idea. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:45, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Given that this is not the first time I've been asked to help with filters elsewhere, I've asked for the abuse filter maintainer right at Meta. Let's see how that goes first - I don't want to have to request sysop for such a narrow (and temporary) purpose if possible. Leaderboard (talk) 07:03, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
OK, great. Please keep us updated. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:24, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
For the original question, I now edited the filter. –LPfi (talk) 09:47, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:03, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek: Not looking positive (as of writing 3/3 support/oppose) - a former Wikivoyage admin has opposed my candidature citing one mistake where I was unintentionally rude to a user (in July 2020, which I freely accepted as a mistake), and others have opposed me as a result. Assuming failure, I am not exactly sure how else I can assist other than running here for sysop (which I'm reluctant for various reasons like being hit with hat-collecting and so on). One option would be to communicate by email or a mailing list or IRC, all of which I'm OK to manage if my AFM proposal does not pass. Leaderboard (talk) 17:47, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Names of stadiums and venuesEdit

Many stadiums, public events and venues have official names which differ from the name casually used by the locals and mass media. In many cases, the official name is set by a commercial sponsor. The Stockholm Globe Arena has been officially named Ericsson Globe for a decade, with little recognition among the public. This week, the official name changed to Avicii Arena, honouring the late music producer. It is not clear whether the new name will catch on; but as the venue is a major attraction and landmark, it will be mentioned extensively on Wikivoyage. Does Wikivoyage have an official policy for those kinds of naming conflict? /Yvwv (talk) 09:27, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

We probably should let the reader know the official name (which will be used in ticketing and on new maps), and the common name (which local people will use). Like the Meridian Hall in Toronto which is known as the Sony Centre, Hummingbird Centre, or O'Keefe Centre, depending on on the age of the person you're talking to. Ground Zero (talk) 12:09, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
There's a similar dispute with Newy's stadium of whether it's called "Newcastle International Sports Centre" or "Hunter Stadium". Most locals don't even know the official name. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:15, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
I strongly dislike the tendency: my language is not for sale. It can be confusing if the ticket uses a name nobody ever heard about, but that's probably something for Travel basics. Keeping track of every stadium's name changes is a fools errand. Of course, it is useful to mention the official name – when it is reasonably stable and widely used – but we should primarily use the commonly known name, which won't go out of fashion any of these days. –LPfi (talk) 16:54, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Our listings have an alt field useful in such situations. Outside of listings, parentheses can be used in prose. Both names should be stated on first mention. Which name is considered primary and which is secondary should be at the discretion of someone with local knowledge. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 17:49, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
Yes, this is a perfect situation for using the "alt" field. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:13, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

How concise do we want our text?Edit

I'd like a discussion on how much we should write in understand, in this case in Talk, where Roovinn has been cutting down extensively. The last example is Finland, where the section on the Swedish speaking population was cut down to

Swedish is the mother tongue of 5.6 % of Finns. [--- section on Finnish ---] Swedish speakers can be found in areas close to the Swedish border, Närpes, Korsnäs, Larsmo, Vaasa, Porvoo and the Åland Islands.

There are no Swedish speaking Finns for two hundred (?) kilometres from the Swedish border that I know, and the mentioned localities cover perhaps 1/4 of the Swedish-speaking population. I'd request some more carefulness, but that's not what to discuss here.

Points removed include:

  • [Swedish is] closely related to Norwegian and Danish
  • The Swedish speakers are concentrated along most of the coast, with smaller communities in some cities elsewhere.


  • In Åland and the Swedish parts of Ostrobothina, people typically speak little or no Finnish. In traditionally Swedish-majority towns like Vaasa (Vasa) and Porvoo (Borgå) nearly half the population is Swedish-speaking and service in Swedish is expected by many Swedish-speaking locals. In cities like Helsinki and Turku, on the other hand, there is a lively Swedish cultural scene and most people know enough Swedish to deal with simple conversations you engage in as a tourist and often at least somewhat beyond, but living would be quite tough without knowledge of Finnish.

was condensed into "In cities like Helsinki and Turku, most people know enough of Swedish to deal with simple conservations."

Don't we want the removed information? Was this excessively wordy?

Swedish is of course a minority language, so a traveller could get along just speaking English and ignoring the language relations – in fact, many Swedes do just that. On the other hand, Swedish is one of the two "national languages" and understanding the subtleties around this subject could help avoid being an elephant in the porcelain shop.

LPfi (talk) 06:45, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

And then there is the issue about style and including context. For Rovaniemi:
Because of its central location and status as a provincial capital, Rovaniemi has become a center of education in Finnish Lapland. [...], as many as one out of five people are university level students.
The city also offers plenty of educational opportunities, and has the feel of a university town. [...] have about 10,000 students in total.
Also here details were removed, such as
Being not to big a town (the radius is about a kilometre), the best way to get around [is by foot]
Being not too big of a town, the best way to get around [is by foot]
LPfi (talk) 07:02, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
In my opinion, I don't think cutting down extensively is a good idea. This just leads to confusion, and sometimes, detail is needed. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:24, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
It's great to be pithy when no essential or really useful information is removed. However, we should remove useful information with great caution. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:58, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
On the 3 points that were removed, the first one is probably the least useful (Swedish is related to Norwegian and Danish) and may have a reasonable case to be removed. The other two points however would be relevant for the traveller (where Swedish is predominant as opposed to Finnish). If you're planning a trip to Finland and it includes a few days in Åland, it's important to know that brushing up on your Finnish won't be of much help there. Gizza (roam) 09:57, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Wikivoyage Instagram PageEdit

I noticed we have a facebook and a twitter wikivoyage page. And I get it, facebook and twitter are the most popular social media sites. However, in the past few years, the younger society (e.g. Gen Z and Millennials) tend to use more Instagram than FB or Twitter. And being a millennial myself, I and many others that I know, do not use Facebook or Twitter as well. And while I appreciate that no other major wikivoyage has an instagram page, I'm sure that half of us probably use or have Instagram.

When the way society changes, so do we. And only using Facebook and Twitter might mean less readers to Wikivoyage. We wouldn't be using a 1998 software wouldn't we, but rather a 2017 or later. And I think we should also have one.

And I'm only suggesting that we do posts, and not create travel related tik tok videos on reels, or do any advertising on reels. Just what we did on FB and twitter.

And while I appreciate that Instagram prevents you from posting from a desktop, there is a way, and I know how to do this. (email me if you want to know) And if no one is willing to do the job, I'm more than happy to manage the page.

SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:12, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

In principle it's a good idea, but where would the photos come from and what would they show? Are you thinking of photos of destinations we cover (perhaps featured articles/star articles etc), or pictures of the articles themselves (e.g. demos of listing editor, maps etc)? Have you thought about how the copyright would work? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:28, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
We do this with the WV facebook and twitter page - could do the same with those. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:30, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
The last post at was over 2 months ago. We missed a few DotMs, OtBPs, and FTTs. hasn't been updated since mid 2018.
I have an Instagram account, but I rarely look at it. I think you meant Gen Z, not X, as "younger society". I'm X and certainly not young!
Anyway, it would be great to explore the various avenues available to spread the "gospel" of Wikivoyage, if we can keep posting new, fresh content. If we can restart regular updates on FB and Twitter, it may be a good idea to post links on the Main Page, similar to what's done at Wikivoyage:Social media. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 13:05, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
Sorry, yes I meant Gen Z. Was too tired and it's around 23:00 here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:08, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
What is the Instagram copyright policy? Do you have to give a license to them, on their terms? That would exclude pretty much everything except your own photos – which of course might be what they want (OK, Commons has many CC-zero and PD images, but still). –LPfi (talk) 13:47, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
"Strictly speaking, when users upload an image to Instagram, they do not forfeit their copyright. Instead, Instagram’s Terms of Use operate so as to give the social media platform a non-exclusive, fully paid and royalty-free transferable, sub-licence to use the content. This means that Instagram can license images from the site to others – including other Instagram users who can ‘regram’ images (repost photos) from accounts that they follow without infringing copyright." That is -- you retain copyright, which you can release under a free license. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 15:25, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
You might be interested in seeing what others are dong: m:Social media. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:15, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
On copyright and social media, I'd point to this Meta-Wiki page that the Wikimedia Foundation's legal team updated last year. The ed17 (talk) 21:04, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
A good idea in theory as others have said but deciding what we should use it for (as well as not running into any copyright issues) is the challenging part. The ideal images to showcase on social media would be our banners, but Instagram's aspect ratio is markedly different to the aspect ratio of the banners. If we had enough active and capable editors, ideally we would have our own YouTube channel. I believe there is a user on the Chinese Wikivoyage who has a small channel but we don't have an English one. Gizza (roam) 02:41, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @DaGizza: - I've had this issue of sizing while posting. But Insta gives you the option to zoom out, - even out of the image. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:28, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

As they don't seem to accept any copyleft licences, they won't get any of my pictures (unless I especially make some available for the purpose). And as the licence they require is a custom one, it is unlikely that it is covered by any licences on Commons, except PD and CC-zero where applicable. –LPfi (talk) 07:53, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
@LPfi:, are you sure you read that right? You completely retain your copyright for images released to Instagram, and can release it however you want; Instagram's licensing is simply so that people can share images within the website without violating all-rights-reserved copyrights, as for any other social media site. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 20:10, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
@Vaticidalprophet: The Instagram user retains their copyright, but they are required to license the photo to Instagram, and to third parties, under the Instagram licence. If you upload my photo to Instagram, it could be published somewhere else without any mention of the CC-BY-SA licence I demand to be mentioned when my photos are used. –LPfi (talk) 08:28, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Unknown ErrorEdit

I'm trying to convert the sentence I had written previously about the Starved Rock Lodge and Cabins into a listing, but each time I press submit it says "An unknown error has been encountered while attempting to save the listing, please try again: invalidsection" Does anyone else have problems editing? SewChicago (talk) 22:13, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

You are not the first one having it. The last mention I found is in Wikivoyage talk:Listing editor#Editing by Listing Editor. The error couldn't be reproduced by others, but persisted at least for some time for those affected. It might be something with your setup or connection. If you can make it go away and return with some specific action, somebody might be able to figure out some possible cause. –LPfi (talk) 23:42, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
This happened to me about a month ago. Went away when I switched my IP address. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
I remember a problem, long time ago, with the equivalent of a   but not coded that way. That equivalent came from an external text editor and was not visible because you could not see a  . Could that be the case? --FredTC (talk) 10:47, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
@SewChicago: Did all of the parameters in the listing begin with lowercase letters? 13:01, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
@LPfi:, @SHB2000:, it went away when I restarted my computer. @, unfortunately at this point I don't remember. SewChicago (talk) 19:17, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Hong Kong: Warning BoxEdit

As a local in Hong Kong, I think the protests have largely died down due to the National Security Law for almost a year. As far as I know the last time when there are large-scale protests is 1 July 2020, probably hours after the NSL comes into effect. So should we remove contents about the demonstration from the article?

  WARNING: There have been major changes in Hong Kong's legal and political environment with the enactment of the National Security Law. As the law could be interpreted broadly, anyone - foreigners included - who has criticized the Hong Kong or Chinese governments is at risk of arrest and possible transfer to mainland China for prosecution under mainland law. See #National Security Law below for details.
(Information last updated May 2021)

Opinions will be appreciated.廣九直通車 (talk) 09:19, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

As someone who's been following this thing since 2019, I'd say put it in invisible text. Just because this issue may (trés unlikely) arise again, but it's tedious to do it all again. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:39, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm happy to defer to your judgement about the protest information, 廣九直通車. I don't think there's any need to leave it in "invisible text" (I assume this means HTML comments) – if the protests start up again, we can always look in the page history to find the old information if needed. —Granger (talk · contribs) 09:45, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
@Mx. Granger: it simply means just putting it like this: <!-- [warningbox] --> . SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:30, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Very happy to go along with 廣九直通車's local knowledge. I wonder, should the protests section in 'Stay safe' therefore be reduced in length? And should the focus be changed from the threat of violent clashes to the possibility of arrest if you break the NSL? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:44, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
I'd say plunge forward. We don't want obsolete warnings on our pages. And I wouldn't keep hidden text, either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:15, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Let's also ask for opinions from other Hong Kong editors like OhanaUnited and Kdm852. The dog2 (talk) 18:21, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Hello all. I think the warning box for the protests is rather unnecessary at this point since, as has been mentioned above, the protests have largely disappeared in recent months. As has also been mentioned, if it flares up again, it should be fairly easy to restore it from the article's history. Kdm852 (talk) 13:25, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
I'll support for hiding the information about the protests. As the Hong Kong government is really shitty in dealing the pandemic (for example, by allowing 5 consecutive waves of local cases after restrictions were released), I'm quite afraid that discontent among locals may erupt in critical incidents.廣九直通車 (talk) 13:34, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
To be fair, which country actually did not do shit with dealing with the pandemic. (there's some like New Cal, Taiwan and some others). But if you want, then sure, go ahead and hide it. I commonly hide texts when it's covid related, so you may as well do it here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:37, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
I concur with Granger and am happy to take the local-knowledge option. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 03:10, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
I would say that although the protests have died down, the threat imposed by "National Security Law" is ever present (and more so with impunity). Until the political environment changes, I would recommend keeping the box there. OhanaUnitedTalk page 15:40, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
I thought the proposal here was to remove the information about the protests from the warning box, which was done in this diff, but now I see the information about the National Security Law has also been removed.[2]Granger (talk · contribs) 17:02, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

NSW mice plagueEdit

For those who may have read the article Central West (New South Wales) recently, you may have some clue on what's going on. But now, times have changed, and mice have been spotted in Sydney, and are hopping on cars. They've recently been known for some engine failures, as well as some chewed seatbelts. Mostly, riverside areas have been affected. But my question is whether to include a warning box or not. I'm not sure if a traveller will give two thoughts about this, but at the same time - it is an ongoing serious issue. But by putting warning boxes on all the places that are affected, that'll just discourage people from going there entirely. So, should I add it, or not. All opinions welcome! Cheers, SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:04, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I think no warning boxes should be put in all relevant articles – warning boxes all over will not be adequately maintained and travellers should read some articles higher up in the hierarchy. Perhaps it's the state level that can be expected to be read for Australia. As not all the state is affected, a link to the Central West article, and a description there, would suffice. As this hardly is a lethal danger (it isn't a new Black Death, I suppose), a cautionbox should be used rather than a warningbox. A bit more of explanation would be needed though: Can the illness transfer to people? should you take measures if you have a vehicle? Should those afraid of rodents keep clear entirely? That this is something happening regularly could also be mentioned. Unfortunately the Wikipedia article says little on the subject. –LPfi (talk) 12:17, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
And sigh, I've just heard an hour ago that a couple of Sydneysiders, (300km away from Central West) has had a mice in their backyard. Last week, someone's car went on fire, due to mice in Moss Vale (about 400km away). Additionally, two days ago, there were reports that some fish had about 10-15 mice in them [3] (sorry, paywalled article). So would we just recommend readers to not leave food out in the open and avoid going fishing? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:01, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Why avoid going fishing? Nurg (talk) 08:45, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Because those fish have about 10-15 mice in them. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:47, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
So mice should avoid going fishing, but why would humans avoid fishing? Nurg (talk) 10:41, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Well, obviously the fish aren't healthy, and may not be safe to eat. While I appreciate that most people who do recreational fishing including myself just let the fish go, fishing would just damage the river's already damaged ecosystem. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:06, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
The fish are eating mice? That seems good. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:22, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Or not. The last time I went fishing (a few weeks back) and the fish were twice its usual size. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:23, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
(after edit confict) It's quite normal and healthy for carnivorous fish to eat things like mice, and for people to eat the fish. Have the mice been poisoned? That might be a health risk. But if they haven't been poisoned, I would have thought the fish would be big and healthy. One would want to gut them, as is usual. Nurg (talk) 11:37, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
This is not normal. The fish are native species but the mice that they're consuming is not. The native mice that live in NSW don't usually swim. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:44, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Not normal, I agree – like reindeer eating lemmings, but I read such things happen (much richer food than birch and lichen). The question is whether the mice carry pathogens that can infect the fish or the fisherman, either in that the plague itself can infect humans, that the fish are tempted to eat mice that are unhealthy for other reasons, such as having been dead for some time, or that the abnormal diet makes the fish unhealthy by being abnormal. –LPfi (talk) 20:21, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Abuse Filter 29Edit

Just noting that I have a question about some edits, I know there have been some changes in admin policy regarding vandalism in the last few months so it might be worth taking a look at this case. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:45, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately I'm not an admin on this wiki, so I can't see it. I'm not an expert on abuse filters, but an abuse filter I set on nawiki drove away a vandal. But I don't this we should have that filter. I myself have reverted a few innocent edits, who knows how much this filter reverts innocent edits. Is it worth the filter? I think most of the wikivoyage community knows what Brendan John Williams' target pages are. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:51, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
This filter isn't for reverting edits, the details of which I don't want to specify here for obvious reasons, and does not block edits frequently. Admins have in recent times used the Abuse Filter for general discussion, so sorry I can't be of more help on this more public page. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:55, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Can you email me about this filter? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:01, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, thanks. After doing some research the editor(s) in question look OK to me. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:15, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Another question about abuse filters: why does the abuse filters page only mention filters 1-16, and not 17-51? 13:21, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
When I first became an admin on, I thought the same with 1-2 and 3. What a coincidence! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:25, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Probably because it hasn't been updated in a while. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:25, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
I guess it could be updated, but I really don't know if that page is used too often. I didn't even know it existed. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:28, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Well, I have imported filters here, to nawiki, to drive away a certain cross-wiki LTA. would be nice if the filters weren't all private, but if it weren't, then some LTA's would misuse the privilege of being able to see the filter openly. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:34, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
It is not because the later filters are private, because 15 and 16 are on the list. 13:39, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
@SelfieCity: Please can you fill in the missing gaps on the abuse filters page as there are some descriptions that I cannot find? 14:10, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Here are some of the filter names that I can find, but not the number:

  • Disallowed
  • Admin/steward abuse by name
  • Antivandalism
  • Antivandalism (global)
  • Block evasion
  • Scifi Abuse
  • Creating empty page
  • Global "ntsamr"-pattern spambot filter - this could possibly by filter 16?
  • New user removing speedy deletion templates
  • 2019 Notable Edit
  • Caliphate disruption
  • Vandalism in all caps
  • Unconfirmed Email Detect 14:17, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Does anybody need to know the coupling between number and explanation, besides those who edit them or check the logs? That would be the administrators, and they can see the up-to-date list of filters. –LPfi (talk) 14:25, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
@LPfi: There are many discussions on this page mentioning the number of abuse filters but not the names. This means that some users (e.g. SHB2000 - see their comment above) do not know which abuse filter is being referred to. 14:30, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Could you point me to any that is not directed towards administrators (usually implicitly)? –LPfi (talk) 14:40, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
@LPfi: The top few discussions on this page have many replies (if not all of them) not written by admins or stewards. 14:46, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
The first ones are from 2013. I have no idea who of those commenting were or were not administrators at the time. And those commenting seemed to know very well what was discussed. The numbers were given just as shorthands for anybody who knows the filters or can check them from the real filter pages. –LPfi (talk) 14:55, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
@LPfi: I see. I still think it would be helpful for a list of the filters though. I don’t think anyone apart from good-faith users would even know about the page (see SelfieCity’s comment above) and it would help people such as SHB2000 see the name says of the filters. 14:59, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
I think you're wrong. It's a big world, and there are people in it who feel important when they can get editors to talk about them, and who will go to great lengths to find any scrap of information that feeds their psychological needs.
IMO we would ideally not have long discussions like this about any long-term abusers anywhere in public, even if it means that some of us are being left out of the discussion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:30, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
All of the filters are listed at Special:AbuseFilter. They all have a "public description" that even non-admins can view. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 17:17, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
@82, these are global filters, and even exist on the Nauruan Wiktionary, where there are no local abuse filters. Block evasion and Scifi Abuse is local though. Unconfirmed email detect is in the 30s, I think. Can't remember on the top of my head. Same with Vand in all caps. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:09, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Request for bannerEdit

Hi, everyone! I looked for a Requests for banners page and didn't find one, so:

We've had a Downstate New York article for a little while now, but it has no custom banner. Anyone want to try creating one? It doesn't have to be a view of New York City, though a distant one from upriver or conceivably far into Queens might be good. Any interesting view from any of the Five Boroughs, Long Island, Westchester or Rockland could work. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:13, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

It's not perfect, but what are your thoughts on this one? It's cropped from a photo taken near the old Tappan Zee. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 07:04, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! I don't like the pillar with "WARNING" on it, but I like the rest of it, and it's surely better than no custom banner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:20, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I think a more distant view would fit better. I tried File:EagleRock 002.jpg with the croptool without storing the result. The result was quite nice. --FredTC (talk) 09:06, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
Nice, but the region is wrong. This is Downstate New York, not New Jersey. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:15, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I know, but New Jersey is only the camera position. The main subject is New York. That is why I made the suggestion. --FredTC (talk) 09:31, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I understand, but I'd rather the view were from Rockland County. I think I saw a photo of a distant view from Suffern on Commons. I'll see if I can find it and it's big enough. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:45, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I can't find it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:03, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
I like FredTC's image, but since it's not in DNY, something else is needed. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:15, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek:: do you have any in your personal gallery? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:55, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
For the record, the page is Wikivoyage:Banner expedition/Banner suggestions. I’d propose that we move it to Wikivoyage:Banner suggestions so it’s easier to find. I’ll propose it on the talk page. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:50, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Turns out, I already did just that in 2019! See Wikivoyage talk:Banner expedition/Banner suggestions#Move to Wikivoyage:Banner suggestions?. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:52, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and added my crop via Wikidata. I consider it an "interim" solution and welcome a better submission as replacement. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 17:50, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

To the question about my personal gallery, it's on an iPhone and doesn't have any of the types of photos we've been discussing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:31, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
The view from the Tappan Zee looks really good on the page as a banner. I'm happy with it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:30, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Using template Regionlist without a mapEdit

  Region 1 name
Region 1 name is ...
  Region 2 name
Region 2 name is ...

When you use the template:Regionlist without a map, you get a result as shown above. But without the map, the colored rectangles have no function. Shouldn't the rectangles be suppressed in this situation, by making some changes to the template? --FredTC (talk) 13:19, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. Ground Zero (talk) 14:00, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
I would recommend always including a map for a region list, whether static or dynamic, or both. Which region do you feel doesn't need one? Nelson Ricardo (talk) 17:24, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Extraregion? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:00, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, they should be suppressed in that situation. And I think the answer is when there's a region that doesn't or doesn't yet need subregion articles but has clearly-defined regions that can be effectively described in a "Regions" section. We could say that should be a subsection of "Understand" in that situation, but that doesn't fundamentally change things, I think. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:09, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
I feel that an extraregion should still include a map, but if you prefer to not have one, perhaps don't use the Regionlist template and just use bullets instead. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 21:11, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Agree with GZ here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 21:18, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
I've made an edit to {{Regionlist/item}} that allows the colour box to be bypassed: Add |nocolor= somewhere among the parameters with anything following the "=", and the colour box should be suppressed. It works in a way that doesn't alter any existing regionboxes, so there is no need to worry about that. I also made an attempt to implement that into {{Regionlist}}, but that didn't work out the way I wanted it to. I don't have much free time to put into it right now, so I'll have to leave it at that for now. If anyone wants to try their hand at adding the parameter into Regionlist, be my guest. I should say though, that personally I prefer the look of the white boxes before the text, but be your own judge: {{Regionlist/item|blue|Destination|Items|Description|nocolor=y}}
-- Wauteurz (talk) 12:19, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for your effort Wauteurz. Your edit to Regionlist/item works well, but the way Regionlist has to use it, needs some more analysing. In the situation of Southern Russia there is a "call" to Regionlist with a map but also one without a map. In that case, the one without a map must show the color. Another situation is in Amsterdam where a map is not specified with te call to Regionlist, but there is a {{mapframe}} with colored areas used instead. So, there needs to be a way to handle this. I do have an idea for using the regionmap parameter in several situations:
1. | regionmap=The name of the region map
2. | regionmap=
3. | regionmap=same
4. | regionmap=mapframe
In situation 1 a map is displayes and the color are too. In situation 2 no map is displayed and no colors. Situations 3 and 4 have a key word at the place of the map name and do display colors, but no map. Situation 3 is for having more than one call to Regionlist with a map specified at the first call and the rest with same. Situation 4 is for having one call to Regionlist that takes its map from a {{mapframe}}.
Do you think I have covered all situations? If so, is it programmable? --FredTC (talk) 12:32, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
@FredTC: For clarity, I don't intend to automate {{Regionlist}} to check whether colours are needed in the article it gets called in. Disabling colours would be a completely manual process the way I plan to implement it. Southern Russia therefore isn't a problem case. Even if colour detection were automated, you could instead use {{Regionlist/item}} directly for the listing of Crimea there, but again, that isn't a case where there'd be an issue with the changes I have in mind. In any case, the change I have projected is to add in an optional parameter for {{Regionlist}}, which disables colours in every instance of {{Regionlist/item}} within it. The implementations of the template are simply too different from each other to reliably detect them, and the amount of cases where you would want to hide the colours are relatively few. Could you automate it? Without a doubt, but I am in no way capable of automating it. Someone else would have to do so.
Cases such as Amsterdam can be fixed easily. The dynamic map can be called from the {{Regionlist}} instead (and in all honesty, shouldn't all instances of Regionlist be unified somewhat?). If it is wanted, I can make some maintenance categories for Regionlist that throw the article into a category when, for example, there isn't a static map, there isn't a dynamic map, there are both a static and dynamic map (or neither of the two). This would pave the way for either automated or manual editing of these articles to (ideally), be like Portugal, which allows the user to choose between a dynamic and a static map. At the very least this would make documentation for the Mapmaking Expedition and Requests for maps a lot easier.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 19:07, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

"Hack" for toggling static and dynamic maps on destination articlesEdit

I just shared this at Template talk:Regionlist#"Hack" for toggling static and dynamic maps on destination articles, but decided to post it here as well for greater visibility. This template can be "hacked" without listing regions in order to offer both a static map and a dynamic map on city/destination articles without cluttering the article. (Sharing this idea came to me thanks to the above discussion.) Nelson Ricardo (talk) 21:29, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

I think it'll be better if we properly extend {{mapframe}} to allow such switchable maps (currently it only allows them one above the other). The hack works works/looks nicely, but it's a nasty hack nevertheless :) -- 19:36, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Absolutely! I requested this last month at Template talk:Mapframe#Enhancement suggestion: Switch between static map and dynamic map Nelson Ricardo (talk) 19:39, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Planned citiesEdit

These might make a decent travel topic. There are quite a few around the world & a variety of types: medieval ones like Palmanova and Fatehpur Sikri, planned capitals like Brasilia or Chandigarh, suburban ones like Milton Keynes or Kanata, ... Pashley (talk) 02:30, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it seems like an excellent travel topic. I'm sure there are many people interested in urban planning. I suggest including other capitals such as Abuja, Canberra, and Washington, D.C. Speaking of suburbs, the various Levittowns may be of interest, but I don't think any of them have articles. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 03:02, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Concur this would be a great topic. Might collab on it -- it's of a bit of interest to me. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 03:58, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Paris is also planned, since the 19th century, and how does the Manhattan grid fit into this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:06, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
We have a short section at Architecture#Urban_planning. Initially, perhaps just expand that? Pashley (talk) 04:24, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it's a good idea to start there. If it grows enough, then we can spin it off into a separate article. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 04:36, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Perth is also a planned city too, mostly world notable for not having proper public transport. I think we could include the ups and downs of all the major world's planned cities (e.g Brasilia, Canberra, Paris, Perth, Palmanova), as well as general information about them. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:04, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Sounds like a great idea.--Vulphere 10:23, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
All cities are planned and all cities have to contend with local geography to some extent. The term "planned city" is thus either tautological or a misnomer. Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:53, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
That's not true. Some cities exist merely as the accumulation of buildings – one farmer builds a house next to another, and a third farmer builds next to the first two, and eventually you accumulate enough people and buildings that it's called a "city" instead of a collection of people and buildings. A planned city is akin to a planned economy. Imagine the word centrally attached before each of those. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:42, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. To quote from our sister site, "A planned community, planned city, or planned town is any community that was carefully planned from its inception and is typically constructed on previously undeveloped land. This contrasts with settlements that evolve in a more ad hoc and organic fashion." --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:18, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── A city, by definition, is not a collection of agricultural houses. A first order definition of "city" could be "place of high population density where most inhabitants are at least one step removed from agriculture". Which means that cities needed agricultural surplus and a society complex enough to administrate and deliver it. And such a society by necessity also has rules and contingencies on who can build what where - at least in cities. For example, tanners had to be outside city walls and downwind from the cities. Roman cities (except, ironically, Rome itself) always had a Cardo and Decumanus intersecting at right angles, and so on. It is also often observable that "planned cities" sensu stricto sooner or later deviate from the "grand master plan" as inhabitants and the next generation of rulers find the plan not fitting their interests. So while "planned city" implicitly claims to sit at one extreme of a spectrum and by implication claims all other cities to sit at the absolute opposite end, the truth of the matter is that all cities are somewhere along the line. Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Another planned city I can think of would be Ottawa I think. Much like Canberra in Australia, which was built from scratch as a compromise between Sydney and Melbourne, I think Ottawa was a compromise picked by Queen Victoria to end the dispute between Toronto and Montreal. The dog2 (talk) 15:38, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
@Hobbitschuster, Americans (and perhaps others) use the word city to mean a wide variety of things. There are human settlements in the US that are legally considered cities, whose economies are dominated by agriculture, and whose population is less than a hundred people. I remember passing through one-street towns on driving trips when I was a kid, where the official road signs that said "Welcome to City X" and "Now Leaving City X" were merely a short walk apart.
Even if that weren't true, there is nothing in my original comment ("eventually you accumulate enough people and buildings") that says "eventually" the place will accumulate only farmers and agricultural buildings. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:58, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Ottawa was not a planned city. Bytown, a scruffy lumbertown, was chosen to be the capital (and renamed) as it was on the border of Ontario and Quebec and wouldn't alienate business elites in Montreal and Toronto. But as a capital, it grew organically, and doesn't show very much planning.
Of interest to language fans, the commonly used English term "planned city" is similar to the Spanish "ciudad planificada" and the German "Planstadt", while the French generally use "nouvelle ville" and the Italians use "città di fondazione". Ground Zero (talk) 16:54, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Is there any way to distinguish a "planned city" from whatever the counterpart is? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:52, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Not necessarily in any sensible absolute way. But a city that was first built according to a plan, which can still be recognised in some way, can work as an interesting example. Saint Petersburg and Helsinki were built to be capitals of/in the Russian Empire, although the geography probably hindered a regular layout. Turku was built as a mostly regular grid after the Great Fire. Kostomuksha was built from scratch as a mining town. Hamina was built more or less as a fortress. The original plan can easily be recognised in some features of these towns, and how the town has deteriorated from the original plan can be as interesting as the plan itself. Towns where the original planning cannot be seen any more, and where new plans have been adapted to the existing structure to a degree that there aren't any visible grand ideas are not planned towns in any sense of that designation. –LPfi (talk) 20:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
I guess this term is somewhat vague, but Adelaide was certainly planned out, or at least the CBD, North Adelaide and the surrounding parks were planned by Colonel William Light, and the CBD is laid out in a very orderly grid, much like Melbourne's CBD.
Singapore does not have an orderly grid system, and initially grew organically, but on Raffles' second visit to Singapore, he drew up a town plan, with Kampong Glam for the Malays, Chinatown for the Chinese, Kampong Chulia for the Indians, European Town for the Europeans, and Commerical Square (today's Raffles Place) as the main square for trading. However, modern Singapore no longer adheres closely to Raffles' town plan; Kampong Chulia no longer exists, so if you want to experience Indian culture in Singapore, you go to Little India, which is in a different location from the former Kampong Chulia. Kampong Glam still exists but is largely a tourist area with some historical sities, and if you want a more authentic experience of day-to-day Malay life, you go to Geylang Serai. And European Town also no longer exists, and the white community in Singapore is very small as most of them left after Singapore became independent. So this is another ambiguous case. The dog2 (talk) 20:29, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
While the CBD is planned, the southern, eastern and south eastern weren't planned. They naturally grew. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 02:09, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
The way to distinguish a planned town from the normal kind is that for planned towns, you can point to a specific founding date and the specific plan, created by a specific person/group.
I imagine that for most people, the main points of interest will be related to the 20th-century w:New towns movement, with the occasional well-preserved older example (e.g., a "planned town" that was really a palace). Something like tiny German villages and railroad towns in the 19th-century American West (both of which tend to have their two oldest streets meet in a T-shape), isn't going to be as interesting as a w:Levittown. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:47, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
  • as for my home ground Brasília, it was built from scratch literally, from 1956, according to Lúcio Costa's master urban plan of two intersecting axises, like an airplane, I'd say it would be the perfect textbook example of a Planned City, but that would be, you know, too bairristic. Chandigarh (substitute Le Corbusier for Lúcio Costa) and Washington DC (Pierre Charles L'Enfant) are better leads, I guess. Ibaman (talk) 22:56, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I've edited Architecture#Urban_planning moderately extensively. The main thing I know is missing is a list of planned capitals; some are given by Ibaman above. No doubt other things could be added as well & some of my text improved. Pashley (talk) 02:15, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Erlangen does not have a founding date (the anniversary is celebrated per German convention based on the first mention of the place in an official document). However, parts of the historical downtown are very much laid out on a grid and built in a short period of time with a defined goal and purpose (namely to house newly arriving Huguenots). The old town burned down some years later and was consequently rebuilt in the Huguenot town style. The "Housing Area" was built for the American barracks and also follows a (separate) master plan. Is Erlangen a "planned city"? Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:16, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

  • another valued debate on this matter is whether Oklahoma City, which started to exist on 22 April 1889, would qualify. I'm not familiar with its urban plan and cannot have an opinion.Ibaman (talk) 11:17, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I'm not an expert in urban planning, so I would defer to other sources, like Wikipedia, which says "A planned community, planned city, or planned town is any community that was carefully planned from its inception and is typically constructed on previously undeveloped land." Like a lot of terminology, the definition is not precise and is open to interpretation. That article includes lists of cities that meet the definition, though. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. We are dealing with an accepted term used in several languages. Erlangen and Oklahoma City are not on Wikipedia's list. If you think they should be, you can make your case on that article's talk page.
A starting point for this article, or an alternative to it, would be to focus on purpose-built national capitals, which is a more focused topic, and might be easier to start with. Ground Zero (talk) 12:52, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
Erlangen likely meets the usual definitions (because there were detailed plans for the 'new' city, and then similar detailed plans to replace the 'old' city when it burned down) and Oklahoma City likely does not (because merely laying out a street grid or drawing property lines isn't usually enough to be a 'planned city').
However, trying to find the One True™ Classification is not our task. Our task is to decide whether a person interested in this subject would be interested in visiting this or that place. It doesn't actually matter if it "is" a planned city; it only matters whether it's an interesting place to visit if you wanted to explore this subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:06, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Editing protectedpages textEdit

Hi, I recommend editing MediaWiki:Protectedpagetext. This message is displayed to every user that tries to edit a protected page (no matter the level), and is currently vey uninformative. wikibooks:MediaWiki:Protectedpagetext or wikinews:MediaWiki:Protectedpagetext are examples. Leaderboard (talk) 11:25, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I tried editing my userpage (pp protected from Ljupco), but where does it link to that page (MW:PPT) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:33, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000: You will most likely not hit into this restriction as you're a template editor. Try editing your userpage as an IP. Leaderboard (talk) 11:34, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Nope, still not coming up. Also, can someone look at abuse filter 23, as it did not allow me to comment with my IP address (possibly an IP range used by Brendan John Williams, but I have no idea about what it is.) I'll post a screenshot of what's coming up. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:42, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
@Leaderboard: See .
--SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:48, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
@Leaderboard:, I've also tried to edit it on desktop, and no link. 11:57, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Can you share a screenshot? Works here on desktop. It won't link to MW:PP, but will display the contents directly. Leaderboard (talk) 12:23, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
See . It may not appear, since I need to wait til my laptop reaches 5%. 12:28, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
@Leaderboard: -   Done here's a desktop version. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:37, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000: That's right. The message you're seeing is exactly what's in MediaWiki:Protectedpagetext, that is, "This page has been protected to prevent editing or other actions.". I'm saying that the message could be modified like what we've done in Wikibooks. Leaderboard (talk) 12:43, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
I'll start drafting one in User:SHB2000/Protectedpagetext. To all editors, feel free to edit it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:50, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
It shouldn't be that large. Hint: try editing the main page of Wikibooks. Leaderboard (talk) 19:26, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

A bundle of changes related to adding templates to a page and removing themEdit

The Technical Wishes team at Wikimedia Germany is working on a number of projects to make working with templates easier. This focus area was selected by members of the German-speaking wiki communities in 2019. Your wiki is part of a group of a few wikis to get these improvements early. A set of changes from this focus area will come to your wiki soon:

  1. When you add a template to a page using the VisualEditor, 2017 wikitext editor, or 2010 WikiEditor, an improved search will help you find relevant templates even if you’re not sure of their exact name. This means, for example, that the search will look for matches for your keyword within the entire template name, not just its beginning. (more info)
  2. In VisualEditor, after searching for a template, you had to close and reopen the whole template dialog if you had selected the wrong template. Now, a back button will be added to the dialog that appears when inserting a new template, making it easier to explore different templates. (more info)
  3. For the same dialog, a warning will appear if you have entered data and close the form without saving. In the past, all changes were just lost. (more info)
  4. In VisualEditor, it will become clearer how to remove a template from a page. So far, users needed to know that they can select a template and press the backspace/delete key. With this change, they can click on “delete” in the context menu next to the “edit” option, the same way as with tables or images. (more info)

We plan to deploy all of these changes on several wikis, including this one, on 23d of June. All other wikis will follow over the course of this year.

We would love to know what you think of the improvements! Please let us know on these talk pages: finding and inserting templates & removing a template. -- Thanks a lot! For the Technical Wishes team at Wikimedia Germany, Timur Vorkul (WMDE) (talk) 15:10, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi Timur, how do I sign up another wiki to this group? (part of a group of a few wikis to get these improvements early) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 21:25, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Leaving a note on the talk page for User:Timur Vorkul (WMDE) or User:Johanna Strodt (WMDE) would probably work. However, as a practical matter, the other wikis might be in the next batch instead of this one. It's typical to try changes like this in small groups first, and share them further only if the changes work. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:30, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
I wanted to do this on the Nauruan Wiktionary, which I'm the only editor there, so doing testing there wouldn't affect anyone much, except myself. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:23, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000: thank you very much for your interest in the work of the Technical Wishes team. Would you like the Nauruan Wiktionary to be added to the group and get all the upcoming changes of our focus area “Make working with templates easier” early? This includes the aforementioned bundle and also VisualEditor template dialog and TemplateData editor improvements in the next months. We would be happy to have you on board and receive additional feedback. Best, Timur Vorkul (WMDE) (talk) 13:38, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I'd love for that to happen. I've already left a message on m:User talk:Johanna Strodt (WMDE), and yes, I'm happy to join (I think it needs consensus, but I'm the only editor, so does that make it consensus?). Thanks, SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:49, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
Perfect. We have added you to the group (for this bundle see this Phabricator ticket). Since you are the only editor on the wiki, you can set your own rules, I suppose. Thanks and best, Timur Vorkul (WMDE) (talk) 09:03, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
I suppose I could, but I'm not the owner of the wiki (and infact no editor is). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:45, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Universal Code of Conduct News – Issue 1Edit

Universal Code of Conduct News
Issue 1, June 2021Read the full newsletter

Welcome to the first issue of Universal Code of Conduct News! This newsletter will help Wikimedians stay involved with the development of the new code, and will distribute relevant news, research, and upcoming events related to the UCoC.

Please note, this is the first issue of UCoC Newsletter which is delivered to all subscribers and projects as an announcement of the initiative. If you want the future issues delivered to your talk page, village pumps, or any specific pages you find appropriate, you need to subscribe here.

You can help us by translating the newsletter issues in your languages to spread the news and create awareness of the new conduct to keep our beloved community safe for all of us. Please add your name here if you want to be informed of the draft issue to translate beforehand. Your participation is valued and appreciated.

  • Affiliate consultations – Wikimedia affiliates of all sizes and types were invited to participate in the UCoC affiliate consultation throughout March and April 2021. (continue reading)
  • 2021 key consultations – The Wikimedia Foundation held enforcement key questions consultations in April and May 2021 to request input about UCoC enforcement from the broader Wikimedia community. (continue reading)
  • Roundtable discussions – The UCoC facilitation team hosted two 90-minute-long public roundtable discussions in May 2021 to discuss UCoC key enforcement questions. More conversations are scheduled. (continue reading)
  • Phase 2 drafting committee – The drafting committee for the phase 2 of the UCoC started their work on 12 May 2021. Read more about their work. (continue reading)
  • Diff blogs – The UCoC facilitators wrote several blog posts based on interesting findings and insights from each community during local project consultation that took place in the 1st quarter of 2021. (continue reading)

What is happening at Lombardy#DrinkEdit

In this section of the Lombardy article I see spaces at the beginning of lines that do not result into this:

    line that starts with 5 spaces

In the article it shows like nbsp has been used:
     line that starts with 5 spaces
Copying such lines from the article to this talk page does not have the same result as in the article.

So, what has happened here? Does it require some action? --FredTC (talk) 12:13, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

That's because of the dot point used: so no dot point means
    line that starts with 5 spaces
and with a dot point means
  •         Franciacorta
Hopefully that helps. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 12:18, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Thank you for taking a look, but it does not help me to understand. In the article, the line "Botticino produced in the province of Brescia :" starts with 3 spaces, but does not show like this:

  Botticino produced in the province of Brescia :

In stead it shows like:
   Botticino produced in the province of Brescia :
And when I copy your "* Franciacorta" above to below here, it looks the same as wiki-source, but not the same after "Publish changes", see below.

  • Franciacorta

So, why has your "* Franciacorta" the spaces in the result, and my version (that looks the same as yours in the wiki-source) have them not? The result of your version looks like this was used:

  •          Franciacorta

--FredTC (talk) 13:26, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm not too sure. @Wauteurz:, do you know anything about this? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:35, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
I am looking at it as if it were a weird way of making a bulleted list (which should probably be subdivided into the subregions, but that's a different thing altogether), without the use of basic Wikitext functionality. There are loads of spaces in the source text that get suppressed by either HTML or Wikitext rendering (or so I would assume). If indentations are what you're trying to achieve, a combination of * and : ought to do the trick just fine:
  • This is a bullet point at the same level as my message above.
    • This is a subsection to that.
  • And this is an entirely different line on that base level.
Can't that be used rather than whatever kind of mess these spaces are? They definitely do not improve the legibility of the article in a meaningful way, and I am not sure what using manual spaces (or non-break spaces for that matter) would have as an advantage over using standard Wikitext formatting?
-- Wauteurz (talk) 15:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Whenever you see weird formatting, it's a good idea to check for copy-and-paste copyright violations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:11, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Just a copyvio check here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:09, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
@Wauteurz I agree that Drink should be reformatted. It does not follow the standard lay-out of Wikivoyage or Wiki's in general. But I still worry about the problems that could occur when such spaces, which are not visible differen from normal spaces, are in an article. Shouldn't the Wiki-software prevent such spaces to be stored in an article?
@SHB2000 Thank you very much for including the link to the copyvio site, it is very usefull. However, in this case my guess is that copyvio is the case, but not from a website, but from a book about wine. But then there still is a question of "how did the user produce that type of spaces". --FredTC (talk) 13:46, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
maybe on mobile? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:47, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
okay so on mobile, it’s not the case 2001:8004:27D2:AAF1:7C5B:D44F:7787:E1F8 13:52, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
So here's a possibility of theories that I think has happened.
  1. They were using the old Wikitext editor.
  2. It's copy paste from a website that has been taken down
  3. Some form of &nsbp; was added, but was removed???
I really can't think of any other reason. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:56, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
Well, as the tags suggest, they used the visual editor, so the old wikitext editor can be ruled out. I see similar patterns in other edits by this person (refer to Piedmont#See and Aosta Valley), so I am willing to be that the simply aren't familiar with the way that wikitext works. Although on the other hand, they changed about thirty thousand bytes just between 10AM and 1PM on June 11th alone. Another anomaly would be the creation of Pavia ( province), which now redirects, but was about 30,000 bytes in size, published at 15:06, only 23 minutes after their previous edit. I have some serious concern about copy-pasting looking at these contributions. Seen as how @Ikan Kekek: has had some interaction with them, perhaps they would like to tune in as well?
-- Wauteurz (talk) 17:11, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
I doubt this is a copy paste thing since it only shows a 11% similarity. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 22:35, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
Whatever it is, I don't think it's all manually written. The edits are too big within too short of a timespan for that to check out in my perception. That said, I checked a few of their edits at random and it gave me quite a few <10% results, but also a 44.4% (Aosta Valley), 93.7% (Milan/Centro Storico) and a 97.1% (Piedmont). The latter seems to be a case of us being copied rather than the other way around though. I am not entirely sure what to make of it altogether. Copyvios aren't something I've looked into much before.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 23:17, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
Below you see what I was worried about. The first one has the special spaces between name and =. The second has normal spaces between name and =.
  • Streetname.
  • Franciacorta, Streetname.
The same could happen when you have a normal looking "lat = 123.45 | long = 54.321" and you don't understand why the marker does not appear on the map. --FredTC (talk) 07:58, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
For some reason I get just normal spaces when I try to copy and paste the lines above to od (I think my tools have worked before, I don't know what I am doing differently now).
Anyway, this is a real problem, but probably not a problem that can be solved in the listing editor, other than perhaps by highlighting unusual characters. There are lots of invisible characters in Unicode, many of which are useful. There are also lots of characters that are visually close, such as "1", "l" and "I", depending on the font used. What about "ηame" or "пamе"? Do you see the three Greek and Russian letters? This is handled in domain names by not allowing mixtures of characters from different alphabets under most national top domains (there was a heated conflict for Bulgaria, who wanted ".бг" as top domain, while it was thought to be too close to ".br" in many fonts).
We need to be able to use Greek and Cyrillic besides English, but perhaps we could get a tool to analyse a listing (or a page) and flag anything unusual.
LPfi (talk) 11:14, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Box sizes and Event listingsEdit

Does anyone here know why these boxes are so distorted and are all in different sizes with different alignments? Here's just an example on how distorted the text and the box sizes are:

On mobile:


On desktop:


Additionally, the event listing is not coming up on the map in Stratford (Victoria). Is it just meant to appear when the event is happening?

Does anyone know why these are happening? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 14:18, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Is this how it looks everywhere, or is it in some specific article? I didn't find those bullets in Stratford (Victoria). –LPfi (talk) 17:33, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
Yes, please provide the article where you are seeing this the distortion. Re the event template: I suspect it was abandoned before completion. It doesn't even have an edit link like all other listing types (so you can't use the listing editor), you can't choose "event" as the listing type in the drop-down another listing (so it appears to be a non-standard type), and now it seems to not add a marker to the mapframe. I looked into using it on my pet Star article a while ago, but decided that its deficiencies were too great and used "Do" listings instead. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 20:13, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
I took these bullets from Syd Harbour National Park, but also the event listing isn't coming up in Stratford. I shouldn't have combined the messages. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:06, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
Sydney Harbour National Park: The markers look fine in Chrome, but do appear slightly off in Safari if one is looking for issues. (I'm on macOS Big Sur.) Nelson Ricardo (talk) 00:25, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
I'm using Chrome on macOS Catalina, so maybe something wrong with my computer? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:45, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Opinion requested in Talk:New South WalesEdit

Hi there, I'd just like to hear your opinion on Talk:New South Wales about the "other destinations" section. Thanks! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 05:05, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Star nominations are back!Edit

Hi fellow Wikivoyagers, I've just nominated Sydney Harbour National Park for star status, and please give me any feedback needed at Wikivoyage:Star nominations#Sydney Harbour National Park. Thanks! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 13:17, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

What do we do with articles that are just full of copyvios?Edit

Had a look at Okomo National Park, and almost all of it is copyvios, from about four different websites. Since this article is so new, I doubt the others copied text from us, considering that is a pretty reliable tourism website, that I doubt will copy from us. So for articles like these, do we just nuke them, or do we remove all the text from it? Also, just letting you know, it still lacks an outline template. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:05, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

My understanding is that copyvios are speedy deletion candidates. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:09, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
I'll let Amy know about this. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:10, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
I've literally cut all the text possible and somehow made it to 52% from 91. I think we have no choice but to delete it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 01:27, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
I've done some rewrites, deletions and additions. Can it be kept now? I think an article on a national park is worth keeping. Ground Zero (talk) 02:02, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 03:32, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

V/Line paper tickets (Australia)Edit

Hi all, I'm more than a bit confused after trying to read into V/Line's paper ticketing system. V/Line operates regional trains in Victoria, some of which operate on a paper ticketing system, where you either have to physically purchase a ticket at an outlet or station, or book it online and take that booking to a station or outlet to get your physical ticket. On the Stratford (Victoria) page, I left an explanation that, if you wanted to travel by train, that there were no ticket outlets in the town, and so no way to book a return ticket while there, given the train station has no staff. AlasdairW pointed out to me that the PTV (Public Transport Victoria) website tells that "If you get on at an unstaffed V/Line station or roadside coach stop, you can buy a ticket from the train conductor or coach driver."

At the time, I did ring up PTV to check, and they confirmed this, but forgot to ask about what forms of payment were accepted, so I rung back up today (much delayed), but I was told — at least for the example of Stratford that I gave — that you could present your online booking and they'd accept it, and he seemed to imply that you couldn't just go onto the train and book a ticket with the conductor. I'm not sure what to do now — I was going to clarify the article, but I don't want to give out potentially wrong information. --LivelyRatification (talk) 21:06, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

@Vaticidalprophet: - do you know anything else? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 21:29, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for trying, I hadn't expected this to be quite so difficult to answer. I am not familiar with trains in Victoria, but it is common in the UK to buy your ticket on the train if you board a local train at a station without a ticket office or machine. In the UK you can pay by cash or card, as the conductor has a hand-held ticket machine. I have also bought a ticket from the conductor in New Zealand (Wellington). It is helpful to know that online bookings can be shown on the train. AlasdairW (talk) 21:48, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Next time I'm on said train, which should be fairly soon, I will try and ask, but I can't provide any input based on previous experience, given that I'd already bought my paper ticket by the time I took the train back from Stratford. --LivelyRatification (talk) 22:36, 14 June 2021 (UTC)