Wikivoyage talk:Destination of the month candidates

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American cuisineEdit

I identified a number of deficiencies with this article in the discussion regarding its nomination, and to cut a long story short, I think those issues, which remain unresolved, are serious enough that I am really not comfortable running it as FTT this month. I am aware that holding up this article's term on the Main Page when I myself haven't worked toward resolving its issues is rather unfair, and I want to make it clear that I do intend to do that (and to demonstrate my good faith, I've created a page in my userspace where you can track my progress in realtime). But I'm leaving this comment here just so nobody is blindsided by the fact that American cuisine has switched places with Czech phrasebook in the schedule. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:24, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

No FTT update?Edit

April 21 was yesterday, but the Main Page Featured Travel Topic hasn't been updated. Andre has over the last years taken care of it but he hasn't been active since the last (OtBP) update a week and a half ago. Is there someone here who'd like to do it (one needs to be an admin to make changes to the Main Page)?

Also, is everything OK with you, Andre? From the message on your user page I see you're not in the mood of contributing here as much as before, and I understand it completely but please let us know if you're taking a break from the project. --Ypsilon (talk) 04:33, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Oops. In the schedule it is commented as "pending fixes and stronger consensus", and the last comments in the discussion are "Needs a considerable amount of work" and "I'm ready to support it when [...]". Is the article ready for prime time, should Czech phrasebook stay until some last minute fixes have been done or should something else be done? –LPfi (talk) 06:49, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
See also the above section and User:AndreCarrotflower/American cuisine, which hasn't been edited since the day it was created (when a chunk on regional cuisines was added). There has been only a few small edits to the article itself since it should have appeared at the main page. –LPfi (talk) 07:04, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
So, assuming neither Horse racing nor American cuisine are good to go, what about the Stockholm history tour? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:23, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
The last comment (and the only detailing issues) was "... weather and season (...), what you should wear (including footwear), whether you should expect to cross lots of roads, whether there are any access issues for people with mobility problems, whether there are alternatives to walking (cycling, public transport?". These issues have not really been dealt with, but I don't think they are crucial: the problems in Gamla Stan (the old town) are described and I don't think there should be any nasty surprises if you have read Stockholm#Climate and Stockholm#By foot. –LPfi (talk) 14:46, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
There are banners available for both Stockholm history tour and The Wire Tour and the latter has 4 support votes. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:08, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
@LPfi: But equally, it wouldn't take long to add them to the article, even if in less detail than the city article.
@Ypsilon: I don't particularly care which one we choose, but I think we should do so ASAP. If The Wire has marginally more support, then my vote is for that one. And maybe also move subsequent FTTs forward by a day or two to make sure it gets the full month?--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:18, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
@ThunderingTyphoons!: I added short notes on climate and walking, from the Stockholm article. Is that enough? I have not been biking or using buses in Stockholm, so I leave that part for somebody else ( Yvwv?). –LPfi (talk) 17:03, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't think we need to move things forward (after all February has 28 days for example) but we should absolutely do the change today or at the very last tomorrow. In the slush suggestion for the Horse racing nomination I mentioned we could run Stockholm now and Wire later.
But another solution would be running the Wire tour now, the Stockholm tour in June when originally intended (would give a month for Ywvw or someone to fine tune the article), and American cuisine sometime later in the fall, October maybe, which is the next month that should emerge in the schedule (that article can be featured anytime of the year). --Ypsilon (talk) 16:41, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Baltimore's weather seems to be more favorable now. Detailed feedback for the Stockholm history tour would be appreciated. /Yvwv (talk) 16:54, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Actually, we need one for May as well, so a following setup would work: Wire tour right now, Stockholm history tour in May, and American cuisine in June. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:56, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
(edit conflict KO) Good point about February (apparently the early Romans went "off-calendar" over the winter until the spring equinox began a new year). Looks like The Wire Tour is ready to go now.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:58, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sitting up till 1AM again waiting to change the Main page, so is it fair to say that we have consensus for The Wire tour? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:06, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Yes, let's go for the Wire, and we should preferably have someone from for example America or Australia, or some night owl, to do the updates if it's important to have them at exactly midnight GMT. A few years ago, luckily not the night before a workday, I sat up until almost 3AM over here. --Ypsilon (talk) 17:27, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Stockholm had snow today. Weather in late May will probably be more favourable. Sweden has lighter pandemic restrictions than most other European countries, and most shops and restaurants are open. Some museums and other venues are closed, set to open in mid-May (unless the pandemic gets a lot worse). We still have restrictions for non-EU/EEA citizens to enter Sweden. /Yvwv (talk) 18:30, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I've switched over the FTT to The Wire. We had a few centimetres of snow settle in Hampshire last week but there was no trace by midday because of a 20° increase in temperature; climate change, eh? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:04, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

DotM updateEdit

It's the 1st of May and now it's the DotM that needs to be updated from Pambanan to Nicosia... --Ypsilon (talk) 12:37, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ypsilon: Thanks for being on the ball. Changed.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:22, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
The nomination has no comments except from the nominator, and the article has three dead links and one formerly dead link to a Facebook page needing login (I don't have an account). Ypsilon updated it last June, but it might need checking once more, promptly. –LPfi (talk) 13:31, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Sure, I could go through it later today. Ypsilon (talk) 13:32, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
It might be a good idea to set up some template magic to change the banners automatically, like we have for "Discover". That would help ensure they're updated on time, though of course volunteer effort would still be needed to make sure the articles are polished. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:39, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Could someone please change the OTBP to Crawford (Nebraska) at midnight UTC (i.e. in about 3½ hours)? If no-one can, I'll change it in the morning.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:31, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

doneLPfi (talk) 01:04, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
@LPfi: Thank you! I wasn't expecting someone in Europe to do it. How late did you have to stay up? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:47, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
I just happened to be up and realised it was time for a change. We have EEST=UTC+3, so I wouldn't have planned for it. –LPfi (talk) 10:28, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
The instructions are good and the change well prepared, so it was easy, but checking around took more time than I had expected. –LPfi (talk) 10:31, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for updating, and for the record I don't think it matters that much if the article update takes place a couple of hours earlier or later than midnight UTC. Ypsilon (talk) 11:37, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
June 1st, it's Winnipeg time... --Ypsilon (talk) 16:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Done – let me know if I missed any steps. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:33, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, I think you did most steps. It's the change to the Main Page that requires admin powers, the rest I can take care of. Ypsilon (talk) 17:42, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Having not been around much lately I did not realize Andre had become inactive. My time zone (Eastern U.S. and Pacific) correlates well for making edits at midnight UTC, so I’d be happy to chip where necessary, as he did many of the administrative duties around here. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:43, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Requesting OtBP update of the Main Page (Crawford -> Visp). --Ypsilon (talk) 05:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── 1st of July now. I can volunteer to do the other steps, but could someone who has rights to edit the Main Page please replace Winnipeg with Cork? --Ypsilon (talk) 15:23, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Done. Why don't you have Main page editing rights? Ground Zero (talk) 15:30, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks. I think one has to be an admin to edit the Main Page, and I don't want to be an admin (or then I need an alternative account to do my normal editing here and use the admin account to update the featured articles at most thrice a month). The rollback tool which I had a for a while I had no use for except inadvertently reverting edits every now and then when scrolling up and down Recent changes. --Ypsilon (talk) 15:37, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
Would you like a separate account for admin rights (main page updates)? We can give it to you specifically for Main Page edits. I’m sure no one would oppose. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 20:17, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
What's that template editor thing, which I think SHB had before he became administrator? Looks like this enables you to edit the Main Page.
Secondly I do not necessarily have the time to log in here every day so it would be good if someone out of the 10+ contributors who edit here every day would remember the to do the updating (I wonder what happened to Andre?), preferably around midnight UTC. --Ypsilon (talk) 08:44, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
That doesn't just enable people to edit templates? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:50, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
Here's the edit to the Main Page by SHB in April that made me wonder if template editors have access to the main page too. --Ypsilon (talk) 08:58, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
SHB2000, before you were an admininistrator you were able to edit the Main Page (see the link above), am I correct that this was because you had template editor rights? Also, today Neuland should go on the Main Page as OtBP. --Ypsilon (talk) 13:51, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it was also why just autoconfirmed users weren't able to edit my userpage. But I've given you template editor rights now. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:19, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! :) --Ypsilon (talk) 04:11, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
I can put a reminder on my phone. Is it correct we change banners the beginning of the 1st, 11th, and 21st? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:21, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Yup. Ypsilon (talk) 12:28, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

New OtBP icon?Edit

Previous Destinations of the Month and Previously Off the beaten Path articles both get a green tick mark icon in the upper right corner or the banner when their month on the Main Page is over, previous FTT articless get an orange pen icon. I wonder if it would be a good idea to have separate icons for the DotM and OtBP so the reader could identify what kind of feature the destination once was?

Spanish WV has a calendar for previous DotMs and a "right turn" roadsign for previous OtBPs. But to keep the design similar to the icons we already use I'd suggest using the icon French WV uses for disambiguation pages, a light blue question mark in a light blue circle. This would also underline the fact that OtBPs are, perhaps not unknown, but at least less known places for visitors. Thoughts? Ps. Template:Pagebanner/styles.css is, I think, the place to make the change if we agree to do this. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:18, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Support SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 07:49, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Anyone else? --Ypsilon (talk) 15:14, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't like the question mark, but I'd be OK with the right turn. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:36, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
I prefer the right turn. A question mark suggests "help". User:AlasdairW 21:50, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, the arrow looks cool. Support changing OtbP to that.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:02, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
Does the {{pagebanner}} have an OtBP variable? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:04, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
There is a customisable feature (otbp=yes) which displays the template icon if that's what you mean by "variable".--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:06, 2 July 2021 (UTC) (updated 09:17)
Thanks! Thought there was only DoTM, since both are the same icon. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:09, 2 July 2021 (UTC) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:09, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
Makes sense. Whoever designed the pagebanner template obviously thought ahead to this very moment and future-proofed it! --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:16, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
The only problem is that the Spanish turn looks a bit different so I just made a turquoise OtBP right turn icon in a similar style to our current DotM and FTT logos. What do you think? --Ypsilon (talk) 09:10, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
I find that bright a color somewhat glary and unpleasant for my eyes. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:09, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
Holy ...., that's bright and hurts my eyes. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:16, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
Bear in mind it's only going to be this big  , it looks fine to me. I don't mind if you all want to start trying out different colours, but I'd be happy with the design as is.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:21, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
I was thinking whether we could have a yellow background like this one  . I've only seen this yellow background in the US and Australia, but to me, better than white. (I may be biased about this one, since I had one of these signs up in front of my old property in rural Australia) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:43, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
If you're going to have a road sign-style yellow symbol, then the Spanish original's simple right-turn looks cleaner than the Aussie one, which doesn't render very well at that size.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:03, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
I swear that's also found in the US as well. But I like the Spanish one better. (which is found in the US from what I know). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:13, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Weirdly, Ireland also uses that style of yellow diamond for their warning signs on roads. Spain definitely doesn't, though probably some of the Latin American countries do, hence Wikiviajes' choice.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:32, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Probably, considering that Spain isn't the country with the highest number of Espangol speakers. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:28, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
My point with the new design was to make it similar to the current DotM and FTT icons: both consist of a circle with something inside on a white background. The diamond-shaped road sign logo in its original form looks a bit out of place with the other icons having a similar design, so I modified it to look more like them. The color can easily be changed, for example to a more normal type of blue, I originally had in mind something like this but decided to make it a bit ostentatious for the fun of it :). --Ypsilon (talk) 13:47, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
How about a more "normal" blue version? --Ypsilon (talk) 11:40, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Much more nicer. While I myself prefer a yellow background, it's too biased towards the Americas, Ireland and Australia and not on a global perspective. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:46, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Also, it of course doesn't need to have a turn to the right in it. I first suggested the French question mark logo which was turned down, so if someone has some other suggestions for what to put in the middle of the circle, let's hear them, and it doesn't have to be blue... etc. --Ypsilon (talk) 12:02, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
The blue arrow also looks good so if it doesn't hurt anyone's eyes, I say we should go for that. We don't need to overthink this.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:14, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
The blue color looks like a substantial improvement to me and I would support making this the OTBP icon. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:35, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
If nobody opposes it , I think we could make the change. Someone good with templates could perhaps do it (SHB2000?). Ypsilon (talk) 17:22, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
@Ypsilon: not sure how to do it myself considering the high number of variables there, but maybe @Wauteurz: could. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:22, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000: Should just be a matter of changing Template:Pagebanner/styles.css with .oo-ui-icon-otbp on a new line. It won't let me though, and I believe that's down to the template only accepting images stored on upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons (i.e., Commons), as upload.wikimedia.org/wikivoyage/en (where our local images are stored) prompts an error claiming there's an "invalid or unsupported value". So, @Ypsilon: since you made the icon, would you be so kind to upload the icon to Commons so I can see whether that fixes it?
-- Wauteurz (talk) 10:24, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
@Wauteurz:, I've exported it to commons, but it won't let me publish the new icon for some weird overkill. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:31, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I've made the change and I see no reason for why it shouldn't work. At the moment though, it isn't displaying the icon on my side yet. I suspect this might have something to do with parts of the site being loaded from cache memory, and it usually takes a little while to update if that's the case. If it doesn't end up working, there's always the weekend to check where things went wrong :)
-- Wauteurz (talk) 10:49, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I just published a change to Norfolk Island and yet it's still showing the old icon. maybe something with the {{pagebanner}} template? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:53, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Maybe the line | {{#if: {{{otbp|}}} | icon-otbp=Previously_Off_the_beaten_path }} needs to be changed? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 11:00, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
It isn't {{Pagebanner}}, I know that much. Using both Norfolk Island and Simpelveld, I'm trying to trace back where it gets the old icon from, and it only leads me to Pagebanner/styles.css. It calls the old line that was replaced in my edit to that file, which still inserts .oo-ui-icon-dotm and .oo-ui-icon-otbp, meaning that a cached version of the CSS page would be the most likely culprit. The best remedy I know in this situation is just to wait it out. I'll see what the Spanish Wikivoyage does different if they do anything different at all. That might unearth something I'm missing, or it will just confirm my suspicion. What @SelfieCity: suggests is merely the mouse-over text, which appears near your mouse when you hold it over the icon for a second or two.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 11:06, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
I tried after 1 and a half hours later (from 21:12 AEST to 22:31), and still it still shows the old icon. I really dunno what to do with this, but I'm sure there's someone on Wikipedia that might know why. Cache isn't the culprit here, since I tried opening it on incognito mode on safari as well. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:33, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
I know from OSM that it can take days to update the cache. I think Wauteurz’ advice is good for now. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:32, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
That's also what I'm assuming applies here. OSM and Wikidata together can easily take a week to be visible. I doubt it'll be that much in this case. If it isn't simply taking a bit of time for everything to update slowly, then I honestly haven't a clue what the root cause would be. -- Wauteurz (talk) 13:50, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
I too still see the old icon, but thanks for proceeding with this. Ypsilon (talk) 19:55, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
been half a week. probably a similar issue to "Hjuston" on OSM. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:57, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
It's been two days. There is no need to be impatient. Sometimes things just take longer than you'd like them to. This isn't like an OSM issue though. Things like Houston displaying as Hjouston, or the IJsselmeer (Netherlands) suddenly being a polder on dynamic maps are to do with the export of OSM that we use here. It's more or less a snapshot of a certain moment than it is the same version as what you'd see if you were to open OSM in a new tab right now. In any case, compare this to shipping something across the world. It won't be there the next day, and if you're unlucky, it might well take two months to get to you, at which point you'll have forgotten you even ordered that thing in the first place. If it makes you happy though, I'd happily mirror the pagebanner into a sandbox and see if writing the CSS-stylesheet inline A) is possible and B) fixes anything. It takes out a man in the middle, which might help speed things up. It'll be tonight or tomorrow at the soonest that I can do that though.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 10:50, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Still nothing. This may come off as a stupid question, but isn't there some way to do this more locally (I mean the Spanish WV do have their own icons) in which case the change would happen faster/more directly. --Ypsilon (talk) 09:39, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think so, unless @Wauteurz: knows. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
I do not know of any, no. At this point, I'm starting to doubt my previous certainty about this working as well. I still don't see an alternative way in which the icon would be changed though. -- Wauteurz (talk) 12:04, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
:( --Ypsilon (talk) 13:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
): SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:25, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Still nothing after three weeks. @Ypsilon, Wauteurz: Maybe we should ask an interface admin at Wikiviajes to see whether we've done something wrong. Anyone familiar with espangol here? (Maybe ThunderingTyphoons!?) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Wow, I've forgotten about this icon thing. Could be a good idea to ask es, someone here who speaks more than "tourist Spanish"? --Ypsilon (talk) 14:02, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Well, I'd note that Template:Pagebanner/styles.css was created two years ago, and the template has been around longer than that, I'm sure. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
I'm able and happy to ask when I get a moment, though note that Wikiviajes is very quiet so we may not get an immediate answer.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:53, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Before you do, can someone with the right permissions (@ThunderingTyphoons!, SelfieCity:) edit lines 211 and 222 in MediaWiki:Common.css to mirror this set of edits? It's only looking at the history of Pagebanner/styles.css that I saw it was a mirror of that. I now suspect that {{Pagebanner}} just takes from Common.css rather than /styles.css. If that doesn't work, I am all out of ideas. I should note though: esVoy does have a very different implementation and possibly different version of pagebanners than us, so I am not entirely confident that they can offer a lot of help, but a shot not fired is always a missed shot.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 17:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
I don't have permission to edit it. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:22, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
"Before you do..." - too late; I posted 90 minutes ago.
With the kind help of user:Galahad who put us in touch, user:Hasley has offered the following advice: "{{pagebanner}} is taking the CSS code from en:voy:MediaWiki:Common.css#L-211 rather than the TemplateStyles subpage. Removing the style from the site CSS or splitting .oo-ui-icon-dotm and .oo-ui-icon-otbp should fix it." Those of you who speak tech, does this help? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
@Hasley can help. With the global sysop bit, can edit directly. If you give permission, of course. Galahad (sasageyo!)(esvoy) 17:55, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @ThunderingTyphoons!: I think what Hasley's suggested is the same as that of Wauteurz but with different wording. We need a template editor to make the change, maybe? SHB2000, can you edit the page TT and Wauteurz have linked? I cannot. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:57, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Galahad, go ahead. Thanks for doing this. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:58, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
@SelfieCity: I would have edited the page myself if we needed a template editor :) If you can't edit it either, it must be locked allowing only global sysops or above to edit. I don't know any from the top of my head though. It might be possible that bureaucrats have the right permissions (@Ikan Kekek, LtPowers: can you edit MediaWiki:Common.css?)-- Wauteurz (talk) 18:05, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
I think Galahad indicated in the comment above that Hasley can and will do it, but maybe the local bureaucrats could do it as well. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:08, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
(ec)   Done, see Special:Diff/4271188; now it's working, let me know if you need anything else. —Hasley (talk) 18:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Thanks Hasley, this is appreciated. I see it's working as I just checked a former OTBP article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:12, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Awesome, thanks a lot! :) --Ypsilon (talk) 18:28, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Chavín de Huántar blurbEdit

Right now, it starts with Explore the ancient Chavín culture and the Andean cuisine.

I find that phrasing problematic. Do we really explore cuisine? I feel like we taste, learn about or experience it. How about something like "See ancient Chavín ruins, savor local Andean cuisine..."? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:51, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek To me it seems weird that there's an emphasis on cuisine as they're are only three traditional restaurants listed, I feel it should be mentioned that Chavin served as a pilgrimage destination for various andean religions as this is one of the primary reasons it's a world heritage site, perhaps also mention it is a world heritage site? Tai123.123 (talk) 20:05, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
That sounds appropriate. That said, 3 restaurants are enough if one or more of them is great. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:11, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I personally haven't visited Chavin so I can't comment on the restaurant's food but other than the unique cuisine served they don't seem that special, Here is my idea for a new blurb
"Long a pilgrimage destination for various Andean people groups, one could admire ancient temples and large ruins in this small town Tai123.123 (talk) 20:29, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
I'd rephrase that: "Admire the ancient temples and large archeological zones in this small town, a place of pilgrimage for several Andean peoples." Or something like that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:46, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
That's probably better Tai123.123 (talk) 20:55, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Anyone else have an opinion, or should we go with the form of words a couple of posts up? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:56, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Reshuffling for Jan-March?Edit

As Recife has no support votes, we can run Orlando or Melbourne/CBD instead. We should however avoid two back-to-back DoTM from the same country. As Vietnamese New Year is on 1 February, Mui Ne would be great for January. Shall we do San Antonio in February, and Melbourne CBD in March? Climate-wise, that would be great for all destinations. /Yvwv (talk) 22:08, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Sure. I think Orlando can wait until April, or for the fall, just not in summer please. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 23:14, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
I think that sounds good, just know that Orlando is still only usable and lacks coords in eat Tai123.123 (talk) 23:16, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
With Sydney featured in December, and some other Oceania-related articles upcoming, we can run Addis Ababa in March, for geographic diversity. /Yvwv (talk) 00:40, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Would Melbourne CBD be a good one to feature in May? It's when the nightlife of Melb comes together. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:21, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
I just added Hollywood as an extra option also Tai123.123 (talk) 05:22, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Scheduled Addis Ababa for February and San Antonio for March: better weather for both, and spring break for the latter. If the Addis Ababa article is unfinished, or the city is not safe, we could run Turin, Melbourne, Orlando or Hollywood; any of them would however repeat two DoTMs from the same country. Maybe we can get Recife done after all? /Yvwv (talk) 01:44, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
How do we feel about recommending travel to a country whose government is engaging in genocidal behavior in Tigray, working to deliberately and quite literally starve the Tigrayan people, even if visiting Addis is relatively safe? Seems like a substantial moral hazard. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:13, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
Is DOTM for promoting tourism to a country or recognizing the work of the contributers to said article. Were currently featuring articles from a dictatorship that actively commits genocide (China) and everyone seemed fine with that. I also doubt anyone would plan a trip to Ethiopia just cause Wikivoyage featured it. I feel fine featuring it but I understand why someone may not feature it and am willing to change my opinion if more convincing arguments are brought forward though. Tai123.123 (talk) 04:53, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
I thought it was quite agreed upon to not use RL issues as a reason to not feature articles. In that case, would we choose not to feature Indonesian articles for the main page because they force people in Papua to leave their ways of traditional life? Okay, so sure, the situation in Papua is nowhere near bad as the situation in Tigray, but..... SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
It's still worth thinking about. I wouldn't feel comfortable traveling to China now, either. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:47, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
True. (but I would currently not be comfortable travelling anywhere outside Australia and the US at this very day) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:52, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
Do you mean due to Covid? Tai123.123 (talk) 06:00, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, although you'll definitely see me say something different if this were next month. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:03, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
I think there are at least three issues now: COVID-19, carbon footprint and moral hazards related to traveling in countries with governments that are committing acts of genocide or in some other way abhorrent to the prospective traveler. And I do think there are definitely different levels of horror. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:00, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
I'd feel OK slushing the article for now for moral reasons, but I am a little worried that similar reasons can be cited for much of the world. China was mentioned and I agree. I don't know the situation in Indonesia, but have no reason to doubt. Russia is very problematic. Sudan joined the rank of violent military dictatorships. For Russia or Afghanistan we could say that it is good people go there and see the situation, but most of our articles just give practical information, and few of our readers would go to Addis Abeba to get information on Tigray and the Ethiopian politics. The easiest solution is to just close one's eyes to disturbing facts. I feel uneasy doing that, but I don't see how to appropriately deal with them either. –LPfi (talk) 09:42, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
There are abuses happening everywhere, but I think when there's an active genocidal war going on, that's a different level. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:10, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
At times, we had a shortage of nominees, barely being able to fill the schedule. As long as we have a surplus of nominees on hold, we can demand higher article quality, as well as seasonal relevance, geographic diversity, and other concerns about whether a destination is suitable or not. Whether a destination is momentarily unsafe or has disrupted services (due to pandemic, strikes, riots, natural disasters, etc) can be objectively evaluated; we put Portland (Oregon) on hold due to riots. Human rights arguments (China, Qatar, Ethiopia, etc) are more subjective and difficult to settle by anyone else than the individual traveller. So, the priorities could be
1. Article quality
2. Safety concerns and service disruption
3. Seasonal relevance
4. Geographic diversity
5. Human rights concerns /Yvwv (talk) 13:42, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
I'd agree to using these criteria for now. In fact, I'd support continuing to have a surplus of nominations in order to maintain featured article options. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 20:57, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
Ditto as well. Support this new list (the current one below). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:00, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
I also like these criteria, perhaps a gap could be added to better illustrate the fact that Article Quality is much more important that safety Tai123.123 (talk) 03:57, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Some articles get nominated for an anniversary. This is really relevant only if there are organized events for the time, but it can be a reason to feature an article which meets the other criteria. Here is an updated version. /Yvwv (talk) 07:19, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
  1. Objective article quality: The article should have at least guide status, with no major errors or issues
  2. No major emergencies: No widespread public disorder, service shutdown, travel bans, etc
  3. Major unique event: Olympics, World Fair, anniversary festival, etc
  4. Subjective article quality: A well-written and engaging article
  5. Major recurring/annual event: Pop festival, Christmas market, Formula 1 race, etc
  6. Favourable season due to weather etc
  7. Geographic diversity: Priority for articles from parts of world with fewer featured articles close in time
  8. Other: Human rights concerns, minor emergencies, minor events, non-celebrated anniversaries, thematic diversity (not too many ski resorts, gambling cities or archaeological sites close in time) etc
I like these criteria Tai123.123 (talk) 14:58, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
If we had some foresight, we could have run Beijing in February for the Olympics. Too late now. /Yvwv (talk) 15:58, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
These criteria are good and I'd support placing them on the Wikivoyage:Destination of the month candidates page. This page has been challenging for new users and establishing a set of criteria would it make it easier for candidates to be judged. I think these criteria are fair, although I'd combine 3 and 5 into one, ranked at #3. I'd change "objective article quality" to "overall article quality" and "subjective article quality" to something like "quality of writing". --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 19:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
My reasoning is this: If a destination hosts a famous January festival, but is not clearly the best pick for January, it can wait for the next year. If the city hosts the Olympics or similar, there is no second chance. /Yvwv (talk) 19:32, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
The list is good to have, but it hasn't been proved by time. I would be wary making it a guideline by putting it on the page. Making the schedule is challenging for new users, and knowing whether there is too long a queue, but these criteria do not help with those issues. Thus, no hurry to make any criteria "official". I also remember there were some worries about there being many articles proposed because of events, and I think we have been giving greater weight to geographic diversity, and perhaps tacitly to diversity overall. And I don't think a Formula race should trump major Human rights concerns. –LPfi (talk) 20:00, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
Addis Abeba is now on hold due to emergency. As we now have a surplus of good candidates, we can take many different aspects into account. As many big cities in the US, Canada and northern & western Europe have been featured, we might have a long-term problem of running out of destinations for northern summer. /Yvwv (talk) 13:22, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
I think there are many left. 10 years à 6 cities is just 60. If there is even one FTT worthy city in each country in Europe and state and province in North America, we haven't done half of them yet, and countries like France and Italy easily have ten. Not all are up to guide status, but improving the needed articles is just work, which is easier for European and North American articles than for articles elsewhere (online information in English easily available, and mostly within driving/Interrail distance for several contributors). Important travel topics might be fewer, but I guess each of the European roads, long-distance walking routes and biking routes is worth an itinerary, as are at least a couple of national or local ones in most countries. Languages any of us knows will run out sooner, so we might have to have phrasebooks more seldom. –LPfi (talk) 14:25, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
We have run decently sized and important cities such as Trondheim, Turku and Eindhoven as OtBP. Cities of similar size might qualify as DoTM in the future. /Yvwv (talk) 15:05, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

For how far in advance should nominations be done?Edit

I recently added a guideline:

* The article should be good enough to feature within 12 months; as is, or with edits that can be done before the intended time slot.

The main hurdle to clear is article quality. But the intended time slot can also be a factor about when to nominate. As the most important seasonal factors are climate, holidays and annual events, all destinations have high season at least once every 12 months. Some articles are however intended to feature during an upcoming one-time event (Olympics etc) or an anniversary (Pacific War for 80 years since Pearl Harbor, Bingara for 135 years since the Myall Creek massacre, etc). For how far in the future do these nominations make sense? Shall we already line up candidates for 2023? /Yvwv (talk) 15:25, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

If we want to be able to shuffle around the articles of the next 12 months, and be able to nominate one that collides so that it cannot be featured the upcoming year, we need some leeway. If we don't require nominators to have internalised the logic of the process, it easily happens that more than three articles are nominated for a three-month span in northern hemisphere spring or summer, and I think it is a pity if we have to slush them just for such an oversight. We also do slush articles because of spotted problems, and we shouldn't have to introduce last-minute substitutes. I don't know how many months that makes. –LPfi (talk) 17:02, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Having a backlog of nominated articles, is a good thing. This allows us to feature articles which are both of high quality, and relevant for the season. /Yvwv (talk) 17:20, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Some good DoTMs could be Dakar (for northern spring), Gothenburg (for northern summer), Jerusalem/Old City (for Easter), Sochi (anytime, but famous as a winter resort), Baku, and Glasgow (probably northern summer), Belfast and Dublin (northern summer), Indianapolis, Düsseldorf and Stuttgart (late summer). Will nominate these when the list shrinks. /Yvwv (talk) 12:51, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
How many nominees are too many? And should we slush articles which have decent quality and no case against featuring, but no available spots? We could consider lining up other Guide-level articles, such as Homer, Ingolstadt, or Swedish Empire. /Yvwv (talk) 00:16, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Feature before or during an event?Edit

The schedule has expanded, and anniversaries and events have been increasingly used to motivate a feature. Farnborough is a case study, with the air show on 18-22 July. Shall we schedule these articles to feature during the specific event? Or a month or so before the event, so that a visitor would be able to plan a journey? One way to deal with public events is to loosen up the categories, so that Farnborough could have a spot on the front page from 21 June to 20 July. /Yvwv (talk) 13:07, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I'd say a month before. While Farnborough won't have that sort of situation (as otbp articles only get rotated on the 11th), Bingara, which the massacre occurred on June the 10th, so whether featuring it in May (during the event but with one day to spare) or June (one day after the event, but with plenty of days to spare) seems to be in more of a which month to feature it situation. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:50, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
I made a tentative switch scheduling Farnborough in an FTT slot, ending on 20 July. IMO, we should do this only when an article is scheduled for a major event, to line up the event at the end of a 30-day period. If you do not like the scheduling, you can roll it back. /Yvwv (talk) 12:32, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't think it's a good idea for any destination article to be an FTT. Not too fussed about the specific scheduling, and won't insist on featuring Farnborough during the airshow.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:19, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
Agree, also someone should reschedule Melbourne as some of us wanted Turin in may due to Eurovision while Melbourne can be featured whenever Tai123.123 (talk) 14:47, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
We have the Vatican for April, so geographic diversity become a factor; whether we should feature two nearby and similar destinations back-to-back. As we now have plenty of good candidates and a resurgence in international tourism, we should reconsider the guidelines for scheduling. But in any case, we have plenty of time. /Yvwv (talk) 15:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
Aside from being near each other, are the Vatican and Turin really that similar? (I haven't been to either) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:37, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
Both Rome and Turin are big cities which have been the capital of Italy, and both (in particular when it comes to the Vatican) are famous for Renaissance architecture, churches and art. If several articles have enough quality, it is a question about seasonal relevance, geographic diversity and thematic diversity. Turin hosts the Eurovision in 2022. The Vatican hosts Easter every year. So maybe 2022 is the time for Turin. /Yvwv (talk) 16:48, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
OK, that all seems reasonable.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Schedule durationEdit

For some time, we had a schedule for 6 months ahead. On 30 October, the schedule was expanded to 10 months ahead. What should be a suitable schedule length? If the schedule comes up with an empty slot far ahead, should we schedule a mediocre article, or keep the slot empty until we have a better candidate? /Yvwv (talk) 21:30, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

I think we should have some unscheduled articles and not fill up too long in advance. Ten months is reasonable, with time for the schedule to stabilise before it is time to do the last copyedits, checks and updates. More than that, and you need to put articles in the schedule more or less right away, which I think isn't optimal. If an article is mediocre, it is better to leave the slot empty, so that it is obvious one should look for an alternative. –LPfi (talk) 12:50, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
I don't think there's any harm in expanding it to even 12, even if it means that some slots may be empty (and this helps better visualise). I mainly expanded it so the Farnborough airshow would be somewhat reserved (but didn't realise I accidentally added in the June section, not the July section). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:58, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
IMO, an article should need at least one support vote from someone else than the nominator, before getting scheduled. Farnborough is a great article in any case. /Yvwv (talk) 13:37, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
I would love to run Swedish Empire in May-June 2023, for the 500-year anniversary of Sweden's independence. Is that too far ahead? /Yvwv (talk) 15:37, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Map with previous DOTM and OTBPEdit

Swept in from the pub

Is there a place where I could find a map with all previous DOTM or OTBP like how the star articles have a map with all star articles highlighted. I'd be curious to see what regions and countries are under or overrepresented. Tai123.123 (talk) 00:23, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

I'd actually like something like that. It's quite obvious that most of Africa (except ZA), South America and Oceania (except Australia/PNG and NZ) are the most under-represented, but there may be an area not represented well that we're probably missed. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:25, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
Can I turn all the previous destinations into Markers (with coords) and add a map frame at the top of the article to provide this (a static map may look better but I can't use inkscape). Tai123.123 (talk) 01:27, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
I was looking through previous destinations and learned we've featured more destinations from Malawi than Austria. Tai123.123 (talk) 01:30, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000, I finished the OTBP map. I only did up to 2013 as the pre 2012 entries didn't work. Tai123.123 (talk) 06:10, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
Pre-2012 was in the times of Wikitravel, so probably why. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:09, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

OmicronEdit

With Israel closing borders and South Africa the first country to discover the omicron variant, should we do something about the schedule? Israel might reopen before the feature, and there might still be flights to South Africa, which needs its tourist income, in January–February. Otherwise we might treat these just as coach travel features, but are there other solutions? –LPfi (talk) 08:53, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Sad to see African destination cancelled, but major emergencies trump the desire for geographic diversity. We could run Sinhala phrasebook early. European classical music would make sense; most people who visit a European city in January or February would prefer indoor events. If Planning your flight gets more votes, we can run it soon. /Yvwv (talk) 16:54, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
I believe now other countries have started to do the same. Probably postpone? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:26, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
Really, all bets are off until we know more about how much immunity existing vaccines provide for this strain. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:41, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
We could find banners for the articles mentioned above. /Yvwv (talk) 23:09, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
Shall we run European classical music for the Dec-Jan slot? /Yvwv (talk) 20:35, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
Sure, as it seems the only feasible option right now tbh. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:41, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
Return to the project page "Destination of the month candidates".