Talk:New York City/Archive 2003-2011

Listings in district pages or topic pages

Evan, do you think it makes sense to list the attractions under the borough pages instead of the main NYC page? For instance, put the Met under the Manhatten page? There are so many things in NYC that one page would be huge. On the other hand, if I am traveling to NYC and I want to find a museum, should I have to look under each borough? (WT-en) Hanzo 05:53, 30 Oct 2003 (PST)

Note Correct spelling of "Manhattan." 67.163.249.124 08:35, 8 Nov 2005 (EST)

I think what we should do is have full listings under the individual "district" pages, with highlights up in the "New York City" page. So, y'know, New York City would have glosses on the most important stuff (Statue of Liberty, the Brooklyn Bridge, the Met, the Empire State Building, Central Park, etc.), and then each of the boroughs would have more detailed info (cafes in Greenwich Village, restaurants in Soho and Little Italy, etc.).

I'm not sure exactly how to describe this principle. Maybe this is how I'd put it:

Describe things as locally as possible (that is, as low as possible on the geographical hierarchy) and then "promote" things that are so important that people reading higher-level pages would think it strange that they weren't listed.

Does that make some sense? -- (WT-en) Evan 06:01, 30 Oct 2003 (PST)

Yes, it does make sense. I also wonder if it would make sense to have topic-related pages for in-depth topics like Museums in big places like NYC. Then you could have multiple paths to get there:

NYC->Manhatten->Manhatten Museums and

NYC->Museums->Manhatten Museums

That way the detailed information is only in one place, but the user can search by both district or topic. Comments? (WT-en) Hanzo 06:30, 30 Oct 2003 (PST)

Main comment is: ugh. B-) This is the quandary we've been dancing around with on Project:Large city article template. My feeling is to divide geographically, then by subject, rather than the other way around. I think there's value in doing it the same way for all large cities, too. I don't like having things too granular -- I'd like to be able to print out the New York City/Brooklyn page and put it in my backpack and use it for my main travel guide. I don't want to have to track down all the different parts. But that's just me. -- (WT-en) Evan 06:34, 30 Oct 2003 (PST)

Ok, let's go with that. I believe in making a decision and moving forward. And, a writer is always free to mention important places that are in the neighboring district - If you're in touring art museums in borough A, don't miss this great little place right over the bridge in borough B. (WT-en) Hanzo 06:58, 30 Oct 2003 (PST)

How to show that a particular place is in a district? i.e. if I want to visit one place, which district page should I look into? This is not obvious from the main page. I wanted to add information about the UNO building, the Empire State Building and other famous places, but I don't remember in which district there are. How do I know? Just some ideas from a Frenchman who went to NY 17 years ago. ;o) (WT-en) Yann 15:39, 29 Mar 2004 (EST)

Theoretically, we should have a map on this page with boundaries for the districts. For right now, if you don't know where a place is, just add it to the main New York. We have a ton of cleanup to do here, and a few more attractions to place won't kill us. --(WT-en) Evan 15:50, 29 Mar 2004 (EST)

"New York City" to "New York (city)"

So, I moved this page from "New York City" to "New York (city)" for the following reasons:

• The official name of the city is "New York". Also, the most common name for the city is "New York", with "New York City" being a distant second.
• There is a US state named "New York", also. I therefore disambiguated the two per the article naming conventions; that is, they're labelled by what they are geographically (one's a state, one's a city).
• Although New York (city) is probably better known than New York (state), I don't think it's so absolutely better known that we can just drop the disambiguator. In other words, it's not the same kind of difference as between Paris and Paris (Texas).

If someone has a better idea, let's hear it. -- (WT-en) Evan 11:34, 4 Nov 2003 (PST)

• Officially, it's the "City of New York". -- (WT-en) Tim
• No, officially, it's New York. Notice that all official address are addressed to "New York, NY 10xxx" "City of New York" is a municipality but so is "City of Yonkers" "City of Boston", etc etc -- (WT-en) BAL

Yes, all mail is addressed to New York, NY but only for mail in Manhattan. Mail to addresses in Brooklyn is addressed to Brooklyn, NY and so on for the other boroughs. The mail analogy is faulty. Also, Manhattan is in New York County while Brooklyn is in Kings County, SI is Richmond, etc. Finally, a Manhattan resident would say he/she lives in New York but (most) Brooklyn residents would say Brooklyn, SI residents SI, etc. The correct heading for this page should be New York City.--(WT-en) Wandering 09:21, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

I disagree. Look at any map it is labeled as New York not New York City.

New discussion

This is all rather pedantic. People call the place New York City all the time, even if not as frequently as "New York," and the disambiguator is really ugly for such a prominent destination—especially since it jars with the common "New York City" term. I think we should change this. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:31, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

If "New York City" is good enough for Wikipedia, it's good enough for me. I suspect that's exactly what the Wikivoyage Press book would be named, too. I would be curious to hear Evan's point of view, though. (WT-en) LtPowers 16:44, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Don't hold your breath on either count ;) --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:24, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

If I may draw a precedent from another North American megalopolis - though it may be called México in conversation, the article isn't named Mexico (city). — (WT-en) Dguillaime 02:39, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Agreed — however many people call it New York or New York City, we can agree nobody calls it New York (city). We should ask one of the bot-happy folks to run a link change throughout the site, though. Probably quite a few articles link here, and eliminating the redirect will help IB's fragile servers. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 11:31, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Redirects are virtually free; I suspect running the bot would probably be worse performance-wise than leaving some redirects in. (WT-en) LtPowers 21:19, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

I'll add my voice to the choir -- this was a weird bee in Evan's usually lucid bonnet, and there's no reason to retain the odd name. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:35, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

The official title is "City of New York," but "New York City" is common, to distinguish it from "New York State." We New Yorkers usually just call the city "New York," though. I would certainly support retitling the article "New York City." (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:21, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

Yes, please do change it to New York City. As it is: New York (city), really is unattractive! (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 15:17, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

Well, this is finally done (fixed). There are still a bit more than 200 links to the New York (city) redirect page, but I've eliminated nearly as many, including all links to the former "New York (city)/District" articles. I triple-checked the district articles to make sure that hierarchy is still in working order, but it would nonetheless be a good idea for someone else to double check my work. We could get the rest of the redirects taken care of if a bunch of people chip in and do 25-50 on every given day. Or we could just live with them and let them over time get fixed. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:58, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

Excellent! Though I'm terribly disappointed to learn we didn't have redirects entitled Noo Yawk. - (WT-en) Dguillaime 01:36, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

Bravo! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 01:46, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

With the aid of FoxReplace, this task has become far easier, and it is now done. New York (city) is dead; long live New York City. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:51, 23 February 2010 (EST)

For profit guidebooks

Off topic: What's the deal with the eventual paper guidebooks? Is all our work meant as a vehicle for publication, whereupon it will be updated every year? Who will profit from any sales (of which I doubt there would be many, as long as people can continue to consult and print pages from the site for free), or would they simply be put back into overhead (server maintainence, etc.)? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 07:48, 27 June 2009 (EDT)

Nothing eventual about it, see Wikivoyage:Wikivoyage Press and buy yours on Amazon.com today ;) (WT-en) Jpatokal 09:21, 27 June 2009 (EDT)

I'm not buying it. I live here and edit as a volunteer. But you didn't answer the rest of my questions. I wouldn't feel very good if our volunteer work is being used to make someone rich. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 21:45, 27 June 2009 (EDT)

No one's getting rich off of it, but it is for-profit. The editors and staff are paid for the effort invested in preparing the guides for print, which is significant. Yeah, someone could print the information off the website, and we hope people do that for the vast majority of the travel guides on Wikivoyage, but for those that have a Wikivoyage Press edition, purchasers get a compact format on high-quality paper with binding and everything. =) It's a value-added service. (WT-en) LtPowers 21:53, 27 June 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, and for all the currently released books, the credited editors have done the lions share of work on the respective cities; editing, creating maps, fact checking, photographing etc. I have no problem with anyone making a little money of all that work. If we ever get in a situation where an editor is profiting for a city where other people have done significant work, I might look at it differently - but I don't see that situation happening any time soon - and even then, regular contributors here have a pretty cordial relationship, and I'm quite sure things would be worked out before anything got released. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 22:08, 27 June 2009 (EDT)

The open content license, CC-by-SA, allows anyone to repackage WT materials (or wikipedia materials for that matter) and use them however they like, provided they: Attribute (by): provide appropriate credit to all authors of the used material, and ShareAlike (SA): keep all material and any derivative works under the same license, so that anyone else can use their work as well. There are countless websites around the internet using our content and trying to get ad revenue off it. I know of only two book publishers using WT material (there probably are more, and will be more): Offbeat Guides and Wikivoyage Press. The former is running into problems with both Attribution and ShareAlike clauses (which is probably why we haven't seen them around lately). The latter was founded by Jani and the co-founders of Wikivoyage, strictly fulfills the requirements of the license, and employs a bunch of long-time Wikivoyage users who have put a ton of work into the site.

Bottom line, if you're not ok with others re-using your pro bono publico work, then work on the big wikis on the web is not for you. Personally, I think re-use is one of the greatest things about work done here—the ripple effect increases the benefit of your work for society exponentially as it expands. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:35, 27 June 2009 (EDT)

My guess is that most uses for this work will remain free. The reason I do this pro bono editing is that I don't want travelers to be misled about my city and other places I know something about. Thanks for the additional discussion; I've been wondering about this ever since I first saw a reference to the idea of buying a Wikipedia guide, which make me do a double take and kind of rubbed me the wrong way. If the people selling the guides ever freeze editing, figuring they have enough information to just print guides for profit every year, I'd be very upset and feel used. But as long as the printed guidebooks are just a small sideline to the co-authored web presence - especially if some of the profit from sales goes back into site maintenance - I can live with it. The thing I like best about Wiki sites is that they constitute a Digital Age version of Medieval collective authorship, complete with marginalia - the "talk" pages. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:21, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

Even if the site was frozen, you could fork the content to a new site and start modifying it again. That's the beauty of the CC-by-sa license. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:32, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

The company that prints the guidebooks, Wikivoyage Press, is not related to the company that owns the wikivoyage.org domain and runs the servers, which is Internet Brands. (The founders of Wikivoyage sold the domain to Internet Brands before starting the press.) So don't worry about those kind of machinations. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 11:43, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

Moving listings to district pages

So I just took a stab at cleaning up the "get around" section, but it's still pretty confusing if you don't know all the different systems and abbreviations and stuff... I'd love it if a New Yorker would go over it. But what I really wanted to bring up is the big See/Do/Sleep/Eat listings on this page, shouldnt those be on the district pages? I'm not totally up on the Huge Cities template, but I thought we'd want to put actual listings on the lowest geographical level, and then have pointers like "Blah is a good place to look for hotels" "Foo has many of NYC's main sites" or somthing like that. Of course I have no idea where to move things too... help? (WT-en) Majnoona 14:10, 22 Feb 2004 (EST)

Thanks for the clean up of my free associations. I'll try to add more in a coherent fashion (WT-en) elustig 14:18, 22 Feb 2004 (EST)

Organising restaurants

Lotsa work to do here. So far I've:

• written a brief intro to the restaurant section
• tried to clean up the train and bus sections a bit
• corrected a small error in the airport access section (Airtrain stops at Howard Beach as well as Jamaica Ctr)
• added a few museums (Whitney, PS1, museum@FIT)

I may take a stab at cleaning up the "getting around" section today or tomorrow.

Any thoughts from the assembled masses about how to organize the restaurant section? Obviously wikivoyage isn't meant to replace Zagats, but there's just so many -- it seems like some sort of organization along the lines of location and/or cuisine would be good. Even a brief overview could justify having a page (or ten) of its own. (WT-en) nmehl

Hi. I seem to recall a big conversation about this-- maybe over [[Mexico City]? Anyway, the way I remember it is you'll wanna put the restaurants on the district pages, with an overview on the New York (city) page. The rule of thumb is always "seven plus or minus two" for the number of items human brains are happy with... if it gets to be more than that, break them into budget/spluge, etc. If that isn't enough, then you'll have to make choices. Imagine a friend comes to visit and asked where to eat-- do you give them 30 options or 3-4? Like you say: we're no Zagats. Hope this help! (WT-en) Majnoona 18:25, 20 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Seems like this was never resolved. Perhaps what we should do is move all the restaurants to the boroughs/neighborhood pages and focus the Eat section on New York food (bagels, cheesecake, pizza, whatever), reservations (is a link to opentable acceptable?), popular areas for different cuisine (chinatown, 6th street indian, little italy, astoria, ecudorian, etc.), and tipping. Seems odd to plug a few mediocre restaurants (lemongrass grill, while nice, is not exactly up there in thai food) on page 1.--(WT-en) Wandering 11:58, 21 June 2007 (EDT)

Drink

What about places to drink? Is there any good reason to list any here? I can't think of any. I am particularly bothered by promotional-sounding copy like this:

"The best espresso based drinks in North America, this stand up coffee bar also offers delicious panino and cornetto all at incredibly affordable prices. Fast service, great quality, amazing ambience."

Come on! This is over the top! Not only is it "the best in North America" (?!), but it's "incredibly affordable" (What the hell does that mean?) and has "amazing ambience"?! I've been dialing back my own statements about places having the best of x-type of food in the city to "arguably the best," but this really takes the cake. I am inclined to delete all drinks listings or possibly move them - except this one - to the Manhattan page, since these are all Manhattan places. But really, whatever watering holes we want to list should be exclusively on "district" pages, in my opinion. Your thoughts? --Michael 04:11, 27 October, 2007 (EDT)

--

I still feel that there is no better reason to list Manhattan bars in this article than there is to list Manhattan restaurants. All the bar listings should be put either on the Manhattan page or simply in district pages. Why do some of you disagree? Michael 03:50, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I agree. --(WT-en) Beenthere 12:33, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I've deleted the bar listings, and seemingly not a moment too soon, as some publicity about a gastropub and its "famous" dishes was recently added. Michael 04:10, 6 June 2008 (EDT)

I think the "Drink" section is way too long. A lot of it seems to me to belong in district pages. What do you all think? (By the way, this is Michael, now as a registered user.) (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:13, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Any reason why Times Square drinking would only be for "tourists from the other 49 states?" I thought NYers like to boast their int'l tourist scene...how about "great drinking establishments are not typically found near Times Sq."? Drew 13:47, 22 Oct 2009 (EDT)

Well, your suggested replacement is a little bland, but the existing statement is far too clumsy to be funny. Personally, I think we should move those neighborhood drinking scenes descriptions out of the article and do a complete rewrite of the section, at much more of a general overview level. It would be good to save the existing text on this talk page, though, as the descriptions could be helpful for writing individual district articles. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:57, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

Get Around

Copied current Get Around to Talk:New York (city)/Get Around in preparation for rewrite. -- (WT-en) Chris j wood 13:35, 26 Jul 2004 (EDT)

I have rewritten the Get Around section, which seemed rather confused. In doing so I've taken out the stuff on commuter rail, which in my experience is of little value in getting around (as opposed to getting into) New York City. It may be a previous author was getting at some 'intra-city' usage I'm not aware of (I'm a visitor; not a resident) but I couldn't make any sense of that bit of text. If anybody knows such a use, please write it in. -- (WT-en) Chris j wood 15:20, 26 Jul 2004 (EDT)

Multi-level article hierarchy

I've just noticed that quite a few pages relating to New York (city) have a 3-level hierarchy.... e.g. New York (city)/Manhattan/Greenwich Village. Is something we really want / need? I've been told elsewhere that Wikivoyage would prefer to go for a "flat" hierarchy of articles.... à la London and Paris, with the main city article fanning out to individual district pages without an intermediate level (this can be indicated in a non-structural way in the main article District section and in "helper" pages....) Shouldn't the New York pages, then, be altered (and soon)? I notice that there hasn't been all that much work done on this city, amazingly, so maybe NOW is a good oportunity to fix our future approach. (The above article, for example, would be moved to New York (city)/Greenwich Village. Either that, or we develop a more complex hierarchy for all major, world cities for the sake of consistency. It could be argued, for example, that London could adopt a number of intermediate regions, slightly more finely-grained than exists already (Central, East, South-East, South, South-West, West, North-West, North and North-East, all of which are in common parlance and better suited to travellers' needs than exists already). Comments / suggestions? (WT-en) Pjamescowie 04:38, 3 Oct 2004 (EDT)

I support changing to the flat hierarchy. It seems to work for London, Tokyo, Sydney. (WT-en) Nurg 01:38, 25 Apr 2005 (EDT)

OK, so there seems to be a consensus amongst all the main contributors (here and on the Manhattan Talk page) that New York should move to a flat hierarchy, as for London, Tokyo, etc. I must say this does seem to be the most elegant and consistent solution for future work on this city. I'll be doing significant work on New York off and on in the next few weeks (I'm there for pleasure for a week late May - early June), so I'll start moving them to their appropriate namespace - unless anyone objects vociferously......? (WT-en) Pjamescowie 02:45, 25 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Revisited

The three-level hierarchy here is unusual, but I think it does make sense to treat the boroughs as separate cities for the purpose of travel. And it certainly makes sense for Manhattan and Brooklyn, at least, to be subdivided into districts. The double backslash article titles were a little too unorthodox, but the current "flat" hierarchical navigation directs readers through the breadcrumbs back from New York City/TriBeCa straight to the main NYC page, rather than the immediate "parent region" of Manhattan.

Evan suggested here that we move to treat the main New York City article as a region, which would contain the city articles for the boroughs. I'd like to propose something similar: we should still use the huge city template for the main article, but alter the boroughs from district article titles to plain huge city & city article titles (e.g., New York City/Brooklyn → Brooklyn). So the boroughs would then relate to NYC proper via IsPartOf.

To recap, I'm proposing we use IsPartOf to relate the boroughs to the NYC article, and backslashes to relate the "subdistricts" to their respective borough pages. Boroughs would use article titles sans the "New York City/" title. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 02:11, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

Two responses:

1. I agree that Brooklyn should be treated as a huge city, but not every borough merits such treatment. Queens does, because various neighborhoods are interesting, for example, for the traveler who wants to experience different ethnic communities and their foods and other retail products; the Bronx might but I think it's really borderline at best, because only a few neighborhoods are likely to be of much interest to the great majority of visitors (such as the vicinity of the Bronx Zoo and Botanic Gardens, the area around Yankee Stadium, Arthur Av., Riverdale, Hunts Point for the wholesale food market, University Heights, and maybe City Island, Morris Heights, and Throgs Neck - I feel like I'm already stretching here, but that's fine); Staten Island does not, because its population - spread pretty widely between different neighborhoods, many of them mostly composed of private houses and not brick apartment houses, except in the more built-up northern part of the island - is a few hundred thousand and the borough is the least interesting to the great majority of visitors.
2. How does "IsPartOf" work, exactly? Sounds like a good plan. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:14, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

I support Peter's proposal. The standalone Staten Island would probably not have subdistricts, but that's life; just treat it like a Big City. But I demand we create a new hybrid Huge City/Region template for use on the New York City article and call it Project:Ginormous city template. =) (WT-en) LtPowers 11:43, 14 July 2009 (EDT)

I'm curious to hear whether anyone else has thoughts on this, before I go forward and make the (big) change. I'd also like to reiterate that I think this is an idiosyncratic case—I don't think this model should be applied to other cities without a careful discussion beforehand. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 20:07, 26 July 2009 (EDT)

I think it makes sense, and is uniquely suited to New York. (Although if this works, we should use it on Gary, too.) (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 20:26, 26 July 2009 (EDT)

With 3,5 times as many residents as in my entire country, I can see a certain merit to the proposal :) And New York is one of the cities - along with London and Tokyo - I'd really like to see salvaged like we managed to do with Rome, besides in it's current state it's unlike to be a guide new users would use for inspiration. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 20:48, 26 July 2009 (EDT)

Hasn't stopped these guys from selling it, though! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 20:57, 26 July 2009 (EDT)

Rome is a much smaller city than New York, and it's contiguous, rather than being on one peninsula and three main islands, so a different strategy is needed for the two cities. Also, the Rome article now has a personal account at the end of it, though I will delete it shortly. Off-topic: What does "[Mark as patrolled]" mean? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 00:33, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

See Project:Recent changes patrol. - (WT-en) Dguillaime 00:39, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

As I am actually going to New York City for 2 days in August, I do have to say that after looking at Wikivoyage's current pages, I quickly abandoned this for more usable sources. Although I think maps go a long way in making the big city articles navigable, I suppose I could support making this an exceptional city and treat it as a region. These large cities really do need to be worked out for the betterment of the entire site. As a side note, once the districts are sorted out, please DO consider creating a list of tasks and nominating it for the collaboration of the month. New York City, like Rome, has major potential to attract a wide variety of people, because so many people have been there! Plus, the collaboration project needs more contributors. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 00:54, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

That's absolutely my intention. I'm planning a London nom to follow—now that Rome is cleaned up, I think these two cities are Wikivoyage's greatest and most prominent weaknesses. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 15:07, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

I'm really glad to hear that! The collaboration is such an excellent feature, but nominations and support for nominations are so low (hence why Iran is this month's collaboration, despite no solid volunteer to carry it through, as you mentioned...) The two most favored (Tokyo and Barcelona) are haulted, pending districting decisions, just like this article! I would definitely add Tokyo to your list of great weaknesses. These cities will all make great collaborations, if these districts can be decided! (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 20:57, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

Agree, it makes a lot of sense in this situation. (WT-en) Shaund 13:48, 2 August 2009 (EDT)

I am now implementing this, having forgotten I'd have to fix all the double redirects in the process. =( I've moved the boroughs to their uninflected titles, and I've moved all of the Manhattan districts and fixed their double redirects. I admit I neglected to fix talk page redirects, for which I apologize. I also am not going through and fixing wikilinks from other articles to the now-redirected titles; I realize that getting to an article through a redirect hides the breadcrumbs, but it's just too big a job for me to do. Anyway, I'll continue on with the other boroughs' districts tomorrow. (WT-en) LtPowers 22:44, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

Also, interwiki links may be broken, FYI. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:13, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

All pages have been moved and double redirects fixed. Other caveats as listed above still apply. (Turns out Queens, Brooklyn, and the Bronx are not really districted, so this second part went a lot quicker than Manhattan did!) (WT-en) LtPowers 13:12, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

I got the remaining redirects. Glad to have this done. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 15:14, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

IvyMedia

Moved from User talk:(WT-en) Evan by (WT-en) Evan

(Evan: moved this discussion to the bottom of your talk page! -- (WT-en) Hypatia 18:09, 29 Oct 2004 (EDT))

Hi, Evan,

We would like to get our website (http://www.ivymedia.com) listed under Super Cheap Bus (New York). Currently you listed the sites owned by one bus company (using staticleap.com and chinatownbus.org as disguise). If you check the content of these two links, you would know which company owns these two websites.

www.ivymedia.com is an independent company that provides online reservation services to almost all Chinatown bus lines and non-Chinatown bus lines.

We hope that you could at least add our wite there.

Thanks you.

Jimmy

Just a little more info on this -- the addition of a link to IvyMedia's link from New York (city) has been consistently reverted by (WT-en) Jpatokal. I'll point him here. -- (WT-en) Hypatia 18:09, 29 Oct 2004 (EDT)

Two reverts by me, one by Evan. The first IvyMedia edit replaced most of the content, including the direct link to operator Fung Wah, with their site. (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:28, 30 Oct 2004 (EDT)

The first change is my fault. I did not know how this site works. After realizing how this works, I made a sensible change. The third time was done by a colleague of mine. We list almost all bus schedules connecting 16 cities/airports from New York. I ask your permission to list our link there. Thanks.

Sorry, but I don't make these decisions. That's not how a wiki works. Please discuss this on Talk:New York (city). We normally don't link to secondary sources, though (see Project:external links), so I think it's unlikely we'll leave your link in. --(WT-en) Evan 15:04, 30 Oct 2004 (EDT)

Evan, two of three links there are secondary sources (owned by a company, pretending as the secondary sources).

Sites owned by a company are primary sources, assuming that the website is not hiding the fact that it's owned by that company. Wikivoyage likes having sites owned by individual transport operators/companies/restaurants/whoever.

On the other hand, if a site is owned by a single company but is pretending to be an overview site, that might be a reason to remove it. You could do that yourself, and leave a note on the Talk page for that article explaining why you did it... -- (WT-en) Hypatia 17:44, 31 Oct 2004 (EST)

The two review sites (or secondary sources) are owned by a bus company. Everything there is intentionally biased towards that company. One of these two sites was purchased last summer (before purchase this site was fair like our site) and the other is created last summer for deceiving end users.

In that case I would suggest removing all non-primary-source sites from this section. (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:46, 31 Oct 2004 (EST)

Yup, I think what we've discovered is that we already had some links we don't really want. -- (WT-en) Colin 23:20, 31 Oct 2004 (EST)

OK, so I've removed the two existing secondary sources links, and replaced them with a few more primary sources. I'm not that familiar with New York, but I know this is missing a lot of links. I believe this is OK (we don't list the millions of airlines that fly into Sydney either :) ). I suppose if anyone is really into the topic they could write a Cheap bus travel in the USA or similar article listing more providers to go with Discount airlines in Europe. However, that person isn't going to be me ;) -- (WT-en) Hypatia 05:26, 1 Nov 2004 (EST)

Hi all. It looks like IvyMedia put up a website for one of the bus companies (Today's Bus) they serve and linked to it from here. Personally, I have no problem with this as long as the site remains the primary site for Today's Bus, and as long as we can avoid having too many of these kinds of extlinks. So I just wanted to point it out in case anyone here disagrees. Also, if this one sticks, presumably we can expect IvyMedia might stick in links from the other endpoints of these buslines, which again I don't disagree with (subject to limitations I already voiced). -- (WT-en) Colin 14:05, 1 Nov 2004 (EST)

I modified the NYC "car driving" rules to be a better explanation of what out-of-towners must deal with. I also revised the Queens page, got rid of MOMA (which moved) and added many restaurants and tips. (I was the Queens page's original creator). -- -- (WT-en) benwick 15 Nov 2004

Getting around - further updating

I did some editing/updating on this section.

First thing I did was change it from "Get around" to Getting around" which is the correct term.

I did some general updating in the subway/PATH sections. I moved a paragraph around and fixed some capitalizations and other things.

Allan 5/13/05 10:22 EST

Thank you very much for your contributions. The section header is intentionally "Get around" (the other standard headers are similarly named) as a style issue. -- (WT-en) Colin 16:01, 13 May 2005 (EDT)

Hotel directory

I evicted the following entry from the text. I have somewhat mixed feelings about this: on the one hand, we really don't want to be a web directory of pointers to directories. And since the following entry is a web directory (and not a primary source), it's not valid under current policy. On the other hand, it would really suck if every apartment owner listed their apartment individually in the article. Bleah. -- (WT-en) Colin 19:14, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

• City Connections Realty rents local apartments at daily, weekly and monthly rates oh and they don't repay your deposit, so BEWARE. They have a small selection of apartments, some in the Gramercy Park area, some in Chelsea (their offices are at 71 W. 23rd St, Suite 1001). There is a broker's fee in addition to the apartment rental cost.

If City Connections Realty is the only agent for the apartments, then they are the primary source and not just a directory. You cannot just walk up to an apartment and check in. It's like a national park that rents out huts. --(WT-en) elgaard 16:20, 1 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Yikes. Good point. I guess I was think it was a realtor so they were using some kind of MLS system that would be common to many realtors... but I'm not sure so I've put it back in. I'll try to look into this more since it's an issue that could affect other places too. If it's an exclusive arrangement, there might be similar agencies for other places like vacation spots. Thanks Elgaard! -- (WT-en) Colin 16:17, 2 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Its gone again. Put in by one anonymous user (from credit suisse) and removed by another. It would be nice if people would at least give a reason or mention it here. --(WT-en) elgaard 20:03, 3 Jul 2005 (EDT)

To do (July 2005) - moving listings to district pages

Current status: most of the attractions info under "See" has been duplicated on the appropriate district pages, sometimes in more detail or better formatted (to MoS). Many "Eat", "Drink" and "Sleep" listings are only in the main NYC page. Suggested To Do list:

1. Confirm that info in the See listings is duplicated on district pages (by and large these are the districts of Manhattan) then replace that info with "glosses on the most important stuff" (as Evan put it earlier).

2. Move "Eat", "Drink" and "Sleep" listings to the district pages and replace them here with something like "Foo has many of NYC's main sites" (as Maj put it earlier).

2a. Need to decide where Chinatown goes. See Talk:New_York_(city)/Manhattan#Chinatown & Little Italy

3. Figure out how to get editors to then expand detailed listings on the district pages rather than adding it back into the main NYC page.

4. Manhattan could do with some work too, partic from See onwards.

I've done some work on NY and districts lately but I'm starting to flag. Any helpers? (WT-en) Nurg 03:22, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Update: April, 2006

I moved detailed parks listings to the Manhattan page a couple of months ago, but I'm uncomfortable with the fact that the list of neighborhoods and almost all the landmarks, museums, and galleries on the "New York (city)" page are Manhattan sights and attractions. Would it be better to move most of those listings to the Manhattan page wholesale and leave a briefer summary and pointer here? The result might be an overly long Manhattan page. I'm not sure what the best course of action is, so I'm posting here so that we can put our minds together and find the best solution.

Michael 03:50, 12 Apr 2006 (UTC)

Further on Neighborhoods

All the neighborhoods listed are in Manhattan. I believe that all of these listings should be removed from the article, with any useful language merged with the linked descriptions of neighborhoods on the Manhattan page. If no-one else does this, I may take care of it at my convenience.

Michael 01:52, 02 Sep 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. We could, of course, add listings for neighborhoods in the other boroughs as well but I don't see any point in having a long listing of neighborhoods. As far as I am concerned, go ahead. I would suggest leaving a general discussion of neighborhoods in the NYC page with examples of a few that are of interest to a tourist.--(WT-en) Wandering 21:03, 1 September 2007 (EDT)

Agreed, all listings should be in district articles, none should be in this one. A good navigation trick is to link to specific neighborhoods in the general descriptions sections of the main city article, e.g., in the buy section mention that SoHo is a good place for shopping. We've done that a lot in the Chicago article if you are looking for examples. Michael, you have been doing really great work on this article today, just wanted to thank you. I'm really glad to see people are taking an interest in fixing up the NYC pages because they really need it! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:12, 1 September 2007 (EDT)

Calendar of Annual Events

I just came here from Wikipedia, where I wrote a new article on the NYC Village Halloween Parade.

I thought about adding this event to the travel page for NYC, but noticed that there is not yet a section devoted to date-specific events.

I think it would be a great idea to add such a section to this article. There are so many things to do while you're here in NYC that only happen once a year, or part of the year. If travelers knew of these events, this page would be more useful to them in planning their trips. Setting up a month-by-month calendar would be the best format.

Other examples: Parades: Macy's Thanksgiving Day, Saint Patrick's Day, various ethnic parades Sports events run during specific seasons Restaurant Week (diners are offered reduced-prive Prix Fixe menus -- very popular)

Well, there are so many. But before I started creating such a section, I thought I'd check in here to get your ideas on format, etc. I can best be reached at the talk page Paul Klenk at Wikipedia.org. (strikethrough per Evan) (WT-en) Paul Klenk

Thanks.

Hi, Paul. Thanks for getting started. We have a page that says where you can stick it, and I believe that annual events go under "Do". If they're only around for part of the year (like the Halloween parade), just set the "opening time" to that date. As a side note, it's probably best to discuss issues having to do with Wikivoyage on wikivoyage.org; that makes sure that all contributors can see the discussions. --(WT-en) Evan 08:34, 30 Aug 2005 (EDT)

Thanks, Evan, will do.

A newcomer

I want to apologize for making changes here without looking at the discussion first. I don't think I did any damage to the direction you guys were going. Most of what I did -- not quite all -- had to do with rail transportation. I am confident I was pretty accurate on that topic.

Please feed back if those of you who have been developing this don't like what I did. Also note that I left off "MTA" in my references to Long Island Railroad and Metro North, but left in some references to those services that included the "MTA" as part of the name. I actually am not sure which is preferable, and I think it should be made uniform.

I do want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem

Tom Croke aka Frog One 67.163.249.124 12:13, 27 Oct 2005 (EDT)

Parks

Perhaps a longterm solution would be to have separate pages on parks for each borough, but for now, I think that all of the information about parks in the "New York (city)" article should be incorporated into the section on parks in the Manhattan article -- because all of the parks that are mentioned are in Manhattan (with Brooklyn's Prospect Park most notable for its absence) -- and then deleted here, with an advisory to look at the page for each borough. I edited the Central Park entry in the Manhattan article, but I am too tired to finish the process now. I may come back to this, or one of you could do it.

Michael 6:01 AM, 14 Jan 2006 (EDT)

Some copyedits

I did a copyedit of the introduction and "Understand" sections, to cut down on the verbiage and the superlatives. It will be great if someone could go over my changes [1] to see if this ignorant foreigner has changed any meanings.

Also, shouldn't there be a section giving the history of this city? --(WT-en) Ravikiran 06:30, 5 Feb 2006 (EST)

Pix

can we please get some better pictures!

Yes, I was thinking of a map of the city that shows roads and things? Maybe not though...

Map?

Uh...oops didn't see that post above.

[Could somebody please include a nice map? I have found some on the internet, but none of the good looking ones are public domain, and the bad looking ones aren't worth it. Would somebody with better skills and maybe more time than I do this, please...Thank you very much.]

Metropolitan Transit Authority

For the sake of accuracy I had to change that in the article because it was the CIty of New York that took over the IRT and BMT (it already owned the IND) in 1940. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (not Transit) did not come into existance until 1968.

Allan 4/26/2006 15:10

Listings I removed from the main NYC page

The following is a long list of listings I deleted from the main NYC page. I've moved everything here so that you or I can go through the list a little later and make sure everything is properly listed in the respective district pages. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 02:47, 28 September 2006 (EDT)

See

• SONY Wonder Technology Lab, 550 Madison Avenue (212) 833-8100. An interactive hands-on experience of cutting edge technology, sponsored by Sony.
• Cathedral St. John The Divine, [2], Amsterdam Avenue between 110–112th Streets—the world's largest Gothic cathedral, a work in progress for over a century!
• Columbia University, Broadway at 116th Street. [3] One of the most famous institutions of higher education in the world, Columbia is also worth a visit for architecture fans, who will be impressed by the beautiful McKim, Mead, and White campus. Subway: 1 to 116th Street-Columbia University
• Washington Square Park and the famous arch is located in the heart of the Village. Though located in the middle of an affluent neighborhood, the Park attracts a hodgepodge of people.
• World Financial Center, [4] Next to the former Twin Towers; Shopping, dining, events and the Winter Garden all open to the public.
• Chelsea Market, [5] The original Oreo cookie factory now a block-sized market selling gourmet foods, flowers, knick-knacks and offering restaurants, bars, art space and special shows. Has free wireless Internet access throughout and smells like a slice of heaven.
• Time Warner Center at Columbus Circle has the Mandarin Oriental Hotel for dining, drinks, and Chihuly chandeliers. It also has a small, ultra-high end mall with a big Borders Bookstore and Botero sculptures. In the basement is a large Whole Foods Market, and there is seating for eating their salad bar and prepared food items (cheaper than eating in a restaurant). Subway: A, C, 1, B, D trains to Columbus Circle. This is also at one corner of Central Park if you want to explore that.
• James Farley Post Office 421 8th Avenue (between 31st and 33rd Streets). This enormous post office is open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Designed by McKim, Mead, and White, it is a great example of Beaux Arts architecture.
• Chrysler Building 405 Lexington Avenue (at 42nd Street). One of the most beautiful and beloved buildings in the world, the Chrysler Building is the epitome of Art Deco architecture. Though you can't go up inside it unless you have business there, you can visit the gorgeous lobby.

Museums

• Morris-Jumel Mansion 65 Jumel Ter. 212-923-8008. Built in 1765, this is the oldest house on Manhattan Island. It served as George Washington's headquarters in 1776. Currently a museum set on a 1.5-acre park, it features a decorative-arts collection representing the colonial and Revolutionary War periods. Washington's office is among the 12 restored rooms. The mansion is accessible by the C subway line (163rd Street stop) and by the M2, M3, M100, and M101 buses. Morris-Jumel Mansion
• Museum of Television & Radio [6], 25 West 52nd Street. Founded in 1976 to preserve and collect television programs as a service to the public. The museum has expanded, and consists of two museum branches in Los Angeles and New York City. The two museums hold over 100,000 television programs that are available to the public. Its programs provide a historical, artistic, and cultural perspective to television and radio. You may use their library here for the price of admission. They have lots of old shows and a database so you can see if they have what you want. (212) 621-6800
• Museum of Sex, 233 Fifth Avenue at 27th Street, (212) 689-6337 [7]
• Nicholas Roerich Museum 319 W. 107th St. (212) 864-7704. [8] Open Tues–Sun 2–5.

Factories

• Steinway & Sons Pianos 1 Steinway Place, Long Island City, Queens, 11105. Tours only available online (Not open to the public) (718) 721-2600 Actually, they've started to offer free guided tours during Fall and Spring to see the skilled crafts men at work. Phone ahead, a month in advance is recommended, to reserve a place on these popular tours, and to check the days and times. Steinway Hall 109 West 57th Street, Manhattan, 10019. Open to the public every day with no appointment or admission fee. For hours, call (212) 246-1100. This is the showroom of Steinway & Sons, with sprawling showrooms containing new and reconditioned pianos representing designs from all eras of its manufacture history, including "Art Case" pianos, specially-commissioned limited edition pianos designed by world artists. It was built in 1925 and recently added to the Registry of Historic Buildings. It features a magnificent rotunda, hand painted by Paul Arndt, and works of art by Rockwell Kent, N.C. Wyeth and Charles Chambers displayed throughout. Some of the many recitals taking place each evening are open to the public; inquire within or call the number above.

Sleep

These hotels were somewhat randomly deleted. If I had never heard of a hotel I figured it was probably one that traveller's wouldn't seek out. I.e. I've heard of the Library Hotel because of its theme so I left it on the main page. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 02:47, 28 September 2006 (EDT)

Seems a strange way to do things If I had never heard of a hotel I figured it was probably one that traveller's wouldn't seek out. Can one person be so infallible. Looking at the list of deleted hotels I see stalwarts like the Royalton (once hip and trendy), The Milford Plaza ('on broadway... I practically grew up with that jingle), The Lexington (a grand old hotel now owned by Radisson). Deleting The Four Seasons is so strange I won't even comment on it. --(WT-en) Wandering 09:33, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Budget

• Carlton Arms, 160 East 25th at 3rd Ave, (212) 679-0860, [9]. A bit run down but reasonably clean and air conditioned, each room (as well as the common areas) is flamboyantly decorated by a different artist. Rates start at $70/night (tax included) with 10% off if you pay for a week or more up front.
• Try a short-term sublet, [10] Craigslist New York contains many listings by New Yorkers that will sublet a spare room, or their entire apartment while they are away. $40–100+
• Riverside Tower Hotel, [11] 80 Riverside Dr, (800) 724-3136 Tel (212) 877-5200 Fax (212) 873-1400 Ratess start at $94.00. Located near Lincoln Center, Central Park, local museums, and has views of the Hudson River. 120 rooms that include color TV, phone, AC, mini fridge, and private bathrooms.
• Larchmont Hotel in the West Village, 27 W. 11th Street, (212) 989-9333, [12]. Weekday singles starting at $70 up to $125 for weekend Queen (winter rates). Continental breakfast included.

Mid-range

• Hotel Thirty Thirty, 30 East 30th Street between Madison and Park Ave., [13]. Rates $110+ Stylish but affordable in Murray Hill/Flatiron on a quiet street.
• Ramada Inn East Side, 161 Lexington at 30th Street, (212) 545-1800 . Off the tourist beaten track (quieter) but still convenient to everything. Located near Gramercy Park, Union Square, 5th Ave Shops, the Flatiron district. Shuttles to/from airports.
• Carlton Hotel, on Madison at East 29th Street, (800) 542-1502, [14]. Rates start at $150/night; currently undergoing renovation to be completed July 2005. Beautiful old building, excellent service.
• Milford Plaza Hotel, 270 W. 45th Street, (888) 288 5700 or (212) 869 3600, [15]. Located in the heart of New York City's Broadway Theater District, around the corner from 14 Broadway theaters, and just a short walk from Radio City Music Hall, the Rockefeller Center, Fifth Avenue shopping, Herald Square, Times Square and the Javits Center.
• La Quinta Koreatown, 17 W. 32nd Street near 5th Ave. Heart of Korea Town. Near Empire State Building (800) 567-7720 or (212) 736-1600.
• Ameritania Hotel, Broadway @ 54th Street (near Times Square).
• Millennium Broadway, 145 W. 44th Street (in the heart of the Theater District between Broadway and 6th Ave), [16]. Rates start at about $299 (800) 622-5569

Splurge

• Hotel Elysee , 60 East 54th Street, New York, NY 10022, (212) 753-1066, [17]. The Hotel Elysee enjoys one of the best locations in Manhattan for both business and pleasure, amidst New York’s most prestigious shops, restaurants and galleries. The country French style Hotel Elysee offers guests free high speed Wi-fi and complimentary refreshments in the Club room 24 hours a day including breakfast in the mornings and wine and cheese receptions on weeknights.

• InterContinental The Barclay New York. 111 EAST 48TH ST, New York. This legendary hotel, located on East 48th Street just steps from Park Avenue, celebrated its 75th anniversary last fall by reclaiming its original Barclay name, following a spectacular multimillion dollar rejuvenation program.
• Omni Berkshire Place , [18]. 21 East 52nd Street at Madison Avenue, New York. Phone: (888) 444-OMNI (6664). Luxury 4-diamond hotel in midtown Manhattan. Located on 52nd Street, the hotel is near Rockefeller Center, St. Patrick's Cathedral and Central Park. The hotel offers 368 guest rooms, all with marble baths, fully stocked refreshment center, and complimentary high speed internet access. Also available to guests are 24 hour concierge service and a complimentary fitness center.
• The Four Seasons Hotel, [19] 57 East 57th Street. Impeccable. Designed by famed architect I.M. Pei. Tel: +1 (212) 758-5700
• The Palace
• Roger Williams Hotel, 131 Madison Avenue at 31st Street, (888) 448-7788, [20]. More upscale, Well decorated but lacking quality in the details.
• Hudson Hotel, 356 West 58th Street New York, New York 10019, Toll Free (800) 697 1791 or (212) 554 6000, Hudson is the next generation of Cheap Chic – stylish, hip and trendy. They even have a hotel soundtrack available to everyone: Hudson Itunes Soundtrack.
• Radisson Lexington Hotel NY, 511 Lexington Avenue at 48th Street, (800) 448-4471 (toll-free) or (212) 755-4400, [21]. A first-class hotel in Manhattan's fashionable Midtown East at the heart of New York City—close to several of New York City's Fortune 500 company offices, as well as many New York City attractions including Times Square and the theater district.
• Royalton Hotel, 44 West 44th Street New York, New York 10036. Royalton's uniquely beautiful Lobby, with its stage-set elegance that runs an entire city block, instantly became the place to see and be seen in New York. Also available, a hotel soundtrack: Royalton Itunes Soundtrack.

NYPD

I've reverted the following from the "Stay safe" section of this article:

"Though safety from crime comes at a price. The NYPD can be very oppressive at times and have been known to gun down and kill many innocent people in the passed few years. If a NYPD cop stops you for a quality life crime or anything, play it safe and do not argue with the cop, by doing so you might be putting your life and freedom in danger. You can fight the ticket for whatever offense they give you in court. The NYPD goes on many ticket blitz. You can get a ticket for having an open non alcoholic beverage on the subway. You can also get ticketed for sitting on a bench at a playground if you are not accompanying a child. BEWARE OF NYPD, FOR THEY ARE THE MOST AGGRESSIVE POLICE DEPARTMENT IN THE NATION AND USUALLY HURT MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE A DAY."

Recent events notwithstanding, I don't think it's fair to characterize the NYPD, LAPD, or any other American police department as a public danger. -- (WT-en) Ryan 19:54, 27 November 2006 (EST)

Reverted again. It is simply inaccurate to include a boldface, capitalized warning that gives the impression that the NYPD is a brute squad. Any police department in the nation has its share of bad apples, but it isn't fair to disparage an entire police force based on generally isolated incidents. Remember that we are writing a travel guide, and please consider whether your edit is applicable to most travelers. Project:The traveller comes first. -- (WT-en) Ryan 22:05, 27 November 2006 (EST)

The following comment was moved from User talk:(WT-en) Wrh2

Hello, thank you for your message on my talk page. But I strongly recommend that some warning about the NYPD be included on the NYC page. I lived in the New York City area my whole life. In recent year, the NYPD has become a dangerous force in itself. Just two nights ago, they shot 50 shots at an unarmed car killing one person and severely injuring the other two. Tickets are given out significantly. In the NYC area News, there are always news reports about ridiculous tickets. They give tips on Fox news, NBC news, and ABC news on how you can defend yourself against these unfair ticekts which are frequently given out for very small resons. Some examples:

• You can not place your book bag or shopping bag on a subway seat, there is a hefty penalty and the reason the NYPD gives is that it is obstruction of seating.
• You can not have non alcoholic beverage on the train (examples, coffee, soda). There is a ticket given out for this.
• You can not sit on a bench at a playground if you do not have children playing in that playground. (this was big on the news, senior citizens were being ticketed for this and they were complaining about why they couldnt sit on the benches near their house.)
• The number of killings of unarmed minority males in NYC is incredibly high
• People are stopped on the sidewalk for riding their bicycle and are ticketed heavily.
• In recent surveys, many people view the NYPD as an occupying force in their neighborhood rather than something there to help them.

I am going to add what I had before back in the article but I will take some lines out so that it is less controversial. (WT-en) Jersey Guy 23:11, 27 November 2006 (EST)

I see nothing to indicate that the situation in NYC is substantially different from anywhere else in the US. The part about tickets in particular comes across very strangely in the text where the text seems astonished at the notion that tickets are actually given for illegal behavior. But if they gave out "seating obstruction" tickets on half-empty trains without either a publicity campaign first or adding clear signage, then that should be noted in "Get around" regarding the subway. If they only give out the tickets on trains where most of the seats are in use, then I really don't think a note of any sort is needed since that comes under basic manners. So at this point I don't understand a need for any warning, so I'll put it back to status quo. -- (WT-en) Colin 23:44, 27 November 2006 (EST)

Bad things happen everywhere. Not all police officers are perfect. But the dire warnings currently in the Stay Safe section strike me as exaggerated and not particularly helpful to travelers either. I would suggest that you either supply data to support your claims, or delete them, and focus on practical tips. What are the "basic precautions" you refer to? How can visitors stay safe, aside from avoiding certain neighborhoods which you say they don't visit anyway? Let's share what works for us. --(WT-en) Beenthere 12:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

climate

Can someone please fill-out the climate subsection in the Understand section? I wouldn't exactly know what the climate is like in Manhattan. --(WT-en) Jr traveller 11:14, 23 December 2006 (EST)

In regards to the climate section, the statement that "The temperature in any season is quite variable and it is not unusual to have a sunny 70°F (21°C) day in January followed by a snowy 25°F (-3°C) day" is just plain wrong. 70 degrees or more in January has only happened about 3 times in 100 years of records, therefore it is highly unusual. I'm going to change it to 50, which is much more reasonable and accurate.

Get Out section

Is New Haven being oversold as a getaway from New York? "Unparalleled ethnic cuisine" compared to New York? Sure, there are some famous pizzerie there, but for a 1 3/4 hour trip on MetroNorth? And isn't New Haven still kind of high-crime, especially compared to New York? I don't mean to insult the city, but I think it's being overpromoted on a guide to New York. -- Michael 2:00 A.M., 11 Feb 2007 (EDT)

I agree. Definitely not the New Haven I've seen. New Haven has hardly any restaurants let alone Ethnic ones (though the burger was invented there), no beaches within easy reach, what nightlife, and I'm not sure where the hundreds of miles of hiking trails came from. A big oversell. If you'd like to tone it down, go ahead. --(WT-en) Wandering 13:30, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

I'd like to bring up for discussion 76.19.10.131's decision to eliminate destinations in Pennsylvania from the "Get out" section. Philadelphia is a very doable and interesting day trip (or better, overnight trip) from New York. Why is a long list of cities served by non-stop flights from LaGuardia airport more important than the suggestion to consider a side trip to Philadelphia, which is an easy bus or train ride away? I'm inclined to restore the entry but would welcome feedback on this. Michael 05:18, 14 April 2009 (EDT)

Limo rentals

I removed the following text from this page, because 1) I'm sick of seeing edits back and forth over this and 2) I don't think it's useful to enough travelers. -- (WT-en) Jonboy 17:23, 24 February 2007 (EST)

One alternative to renting a car or hiring a taxi service is to use a limousine service to get around the city. Unlike taxis, limousine may be hired at a fixed rate for an indefinite amount of time and offer services not found with other modes of transportation. Limousines may be rented for day tours, shopping, business travel, and recreation.

• New York Limo, [22].
• New York Limousine, [23].
• New York limousine Service, [24].

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I lived in suburban NY, renting a limo was, oddly enough, the cheapest reasonable way of getting to the airport (JFK). The "limo" in question was also not a 16-wheeled hot pink Cadillac with a hot tub, but a rather ordinary car. Assuming this odd state of affairs hasn't changed, it might still be worth a mention...? (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:46, 25 February 2007 (EST)

We've blacklisted aa alimos because they kept doing stuff like substituting their URL for the Airport's URL. So maybe we could restore the others. -- (WT-en) Colin 13:52, 25 February 2007 (EST)

I vote we remove the section titled "Limousines". There are too many limo companies in New York and it seems a bit unfair to list a few. I've included a look at the yellow pages or ask at your hotel thing in the taxi section (limos belong there since outside of Manhattan below 96th you can hail them everywhere) and that should be enough. --(WT-en) Wandering 10:16, 15 June 2007 (EDT)

Can we promote the same decision to the whole wikivoyage? I can't imagine where listings few limousine companies can be useful for a traveller. What is the right place to seek consensus on that? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:01, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Budget at 250 dollars a night?

An anon user added the price at the end of the following listing

• Comfort Inn Manhattan New York City Hotel, 42 West 35th Street, (212) 947-0200, [25]. In the heart of the Big Apple, close to Fashion District, Macy's, the Fifth Avenue shopping area, and standing tall amidst the Empire State Building, Madison Square Garden and Pennsylvania Station, the Rockefeller Center, St. Patrick's Cathedral, Times Square and the Theatre District, Radio City Music Hall and Javits Convention Center. US$250+ per night

I know that this is NYC, but does Comfort inn come at $250? And if it does, is it still budget?

Update: I checked the site. It is in fact in that range. So does this go to Mid-range or splurge? — (WT-en) Ravikiran 08:58, 7 March 2007 (EST)

I'm fine with both, when I stayed at NYC, I had to stay at a budget place (109 a night). But 250 can't be budget, mid-range is around 150-250$s and this is 250$ + .... (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage • ( Talk ) • ( (WT-en) Travel ) • 09:06, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Eat

I'm going to reorganize this section by focusing it on the foods of New York, Restaurant mores (including tipping and - lack of - dress codes), Ethnic restaurant areas, street food, and DIY options. The individual listings will disappear into the district pages. Comments?--(WT-en) Wandering 14:23, 25 June 2007 (EDT)

I'm a little shocked to see that there are still listings on this article. Glad to hear you are taking an interest in cleaning this up. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:57, 25 June 2007 (EDT)

Please go ahead! The New York city article has long been a disgrace to Wikivoyage. A lot needs to be done here. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 01:03, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Temporary dump of Eat listings. I'll insert them into district pages by and by but - everyone - feel free to insert there and delete here. --(WT-en) Wandering 14:32, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Restaurants cleaned-up and inserted into districts.--(WT-en) Wandering 17:12, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Markets

• Whole Foods Market [26] with their 3 Manhattan outlets makes for a great eating option—all your groceries are available, of course, but each store has great hot bars and salad / sandwich counters for do-it-yourself service... Hand-washing facilities and comfortable seating is also available at the Columbus Circle store (where you can even see business meetings going on....!) Hot bars change for each meal of the day and day of the week.... Prices are $6.99 a pound for whatever you want to dish into your box, then weigh up at the register.
• 10 Columbus Circle (under the Time Warner building) [27], tel 212.823.9600, fax 212.823.9610 fax, open daily 8am–10pm
• 250 7th Avenue at 24th Street [28], tel 212.924.5969, fax 212.924.9923, open daily 8am–10pm
• 4 Union Square South [29], tel 212.673.5388, fax 212.673.5393 fax, open daily 8am–10pm

• Greenmarkets New York boasts an impressive array of greenmarkets. Local farmers bring their produce, meats, cheeses, jellies, and baked goods into the city several times a week, selling at various locations around town. Though the prices are higher than you would pay at a cheap supermarket, the quality is unmistakably better. Far and away the most popular greenmarket is the one in Union Square, which happens on Mondays, Wednesday, Fridays, and Saturdays.

• Chelsea Market 75 Ninth Avenue (at 16th Street). A former Nabisco factory, Chelsea Market is a one-stop eating hotspot, with a wide array of small shops selling food to take away or eat in. The building is lovely on the inside, especially on hot, muggy days.

• Citarella 2135 Broadway (at 75) (other locations as well). This high-end fish market is also a great spot for fine cheeses, foie gras, and the like. If you don't want to leave the hotel, they deliver for $5.

• Dean and Deluca 560 Broadway (at Prince Street). Dean and Deluca is like Zabar's for the SoHo set. Great food, fabulous espresso, high prices.

• Foodworks Flatiron 10 West 19Th NY, NY 10011 (23rd and 6th avenue). Excellent gourmet and health food with reasonable prices and a nice variety of high quality foods.

• Morningside Park Farmers Market [30] Corner of 110th St. and Manhattan Ave. Features NY state fruits and vegetables, baked goods, and herbs. Produced by Community Markets [31]

It should be noted that there is a grocery/delicatessen on almost every corner of the city.

primospot.com

While primospot does not look commercial (no ads for now), this is a promotional spot. I'm not sure how useful the site is, but including it would probably be ok if it does not violate the external link policy.--(WT-en) Wandering 10:13, 2 October 2007 (EDT)

On second thoughts, not very useful. It doesn't even keep track of alternate side parking regulations.--(WT-en) Wandering 22:19, 4 October 2007 (EDT)

Keeps track of alt. side suspensions now.

Giving to subway panhandlers

I don't think it is the place of a guide book to be a moral authority on whether or not to give to subway panhandlers. Also, it is definitely not a 'generally accepted' viewpoint that a) the money will be spent on drugs or booze and b) one should not give to panhandlers. Quite the contrary, actually. Most New Yorkers will give on occasion (I almost always do) and subway panhandlers would not exist if giving them money was not a general thing. It is not unsafe to do, it is not illegal to give, so and I don't see how this is a safety issue.--(WT-en) Wandering 23:00, 13 October 2007 (EDT)

To the contrary, Wandering, it most certainly is the place of the Wikivoyage guide to give advice (and even pass judgement) on activities that are unsafe or unnecessary or just outright scams. And when you've ridden the same subway line long enough and seen the same panhandler rehersing the same line everyday, had aggresive panhandlers follow you around asking for money, perhaps you'd understand the "scam" aspect of this. Of course there are the legitimately needy in New York - which is where giving to legitimate charities comes in. In the 1990's the MTA had an aggresive campaign to discourage begging on the subways (see for example http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E03E0DA1E31F935A25752C0A962958260 ). As for as your take that "panhandlers would not exist of giving them money was not a general thing" I wholeheartedly agree. Public education combined with aggresive enforcement is how NYC has dealt with panhandlers, "squeegee men", 3-card monte hustlers, and other once unavoidable annoyances. Wikipedia is public education. People can do what they wish with the advice we give here, but to imply we should not give any advice at all is plain irresponsible.(WT-en) SONORAMA 09:53, 16 October 2007 (EDT)

The point, SONORAMA, is that everyone has a different idea of what is morally right and what is not. I, for example, feel that it is not just ok but also good to give to subway panhandlers (and to panhandlers and beggars of all sorts). Of course, I also agree with your comments about legitimate charities but feel that both forms of charity have their place in society. If it were unsafe to give on the subway, I would have no complaints about including a warning against giving, but, it is not unsafe and the issue seems to be purely a moral one. It is not the place of wikivoyage to choose one morality over another. Still, if you feel strongly about this, I'll let your current wording stand (can't complain about that!). And, don't get me started on how I miss the 3-card monte players! --(WT-en) Wandering 11:45, 16 October 2007 (EDT)

OK Wandering, sounds like we've reached an agreement on the wording. Regarding begging, see also the travel topic at http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Begging Does 3 card monte still go on? I last saw that hustle around 1999 and have since left the city. Maybe people have wisened up -- though my hunch is that, like infectious diseases, these types of scams never really go away.(WT-en) SONORAMA 14:32, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

I don't think I've seen any three card monte since the mid 1990s. I used to work in midtown and there were quite a few on 7th Ave north of Times Square. One day, a police bus arrived, arrested them all, stayed there for two weeks cleaning up, and they never returned. Must be around somewhere. There is always someone where there's a buck to be made!--(WT-en) Wandering 09:38, 24 October 2007 (EDT)

THIS ARTICLE IS HORRIBLE

Especially compared to the Chicago article.

New York (city) is also a ridiculous title of the page. No one, ANYWHERE refers to it in this fashion. If there is ever a time there is some confusion between the name of the city and the name of the state, the proper term is "New York City". There are countless examples of this. Anyone who thinks otherwise obviously does not live here.

And that is the real problem. I was reading through the Chicago articles and it was obviously written by someone who lives in and loves Chicago. For some reason, lots of folks who know nothing of New York City seem to chime in, like the above discussion of subway laws. Who cares about the morality of giving to panhandlers? It's illegal! If you actually took the subway, you'd see the signs telling you that!

So please, if you don't know anything about New York City, don't edit this article!!!

Sorry you feel that way! I'll quote from our "about" article:

To create Wikivoyage we use a tool (or a process, or a technology) called Wiki which lets any Internet reader create, update, edit, and illustrate any article on the Web site. We all share our pieces of knowledge, edit them, distill them, and assemble them into a pleasing and cohesive whole. The more people that use the Edit link, the better Wikivoyage becomes.

Chicago just got a major facelift, and hopefully someone will make NYC their project someday soon too. Until then, we'll continue improving it piece by piece... and you're welcome to jump in and help – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 19:19, 4 March 2008 (EST)

I'd just like to add that the Chicago articles are way better than the NYC articles because Chicago is simply superior. (Neener neener neener.) --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 21:21, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

SPORTS

We need a section talking about New York sports...we all know its the best sports city in the land. LETS GO YANKEES! LETS GO RANGERS! LETS GO JETS! LETS GO KNICKS!

come on! Sports need to be recognized on this page!

Economy

I took out "the Big Apple" because no New Yorker calls it that; it's considered the badge of cluelessness and we don't want our visitors embarassed. Also, what's "gross metropolitan product"? Is that for New York City alone, or the whole metropolitan area? If the later, this should say so, to avoid leavig the misleading impression that the city alone generates that.--(WT-en) Beenthere 18:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Suggested Changes

From a recent tourist to NYC: I would suggest that something be added about the ridiculously high tolls that tourists might not be expecting to pay especially for the bridges. Additionally it would be worth noting that the subway stations are considerably hotter than the outside temperature during the summer and cooler during the winter. Information about how a tourist could fit in while in the subway should be added: listen to music, read the paper, sleep, or tilt your head down at about a 70 degree angle; avoid eye contact with other riders; and do not talk from the moment you enter the subway station until you exit. Any tourists planning to ride the subway and/or buses should study and understand the maps (transfers, late night only stops, etc.) so as to not look like a tourist while on the subway/bus. Sites like http://www.gypsymaps.com/ can help plan your subway/bus commute. A warning about how far in advance you should book your hotel would be nice. A note about how little recycling NYC has. How the city is loud and moderately dirty. How the term Ground Zero is not used by locals but rather the World Trade Center site. --(WT-en) Ben b 05:48, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

I don't see the point in tourists trying to "fit in" on the subway. I can generally tell who the tourists are, and sometimes ask them where they're from and talk to them about their trip. Which brings me to another point. It's not true that New Yorkers on the train are always unfriendly and unwilling to talk. Sometimes, they do indeed want to be left alone, but this native New Yorker has often had conversations with strangers on the train, including with other New Yorkers.

About the temperature in the stations. It usually isn't colder than the ambient temperature outside; rather, the contrary. Hotter in summer, it is.

About bus/subway maps: What do you have against the MTA's own maps?

Finally, if you feel it's important to put in more content, put it in, though of course with the understanding that others may edit it as they see fit. Michael 23:33, 7 February 2009 (EST)

Just for record NYC, and specifically the MTA, sort and recycle their trash AFTER it is collected- throw a plastic bottle or a newspaper in a garbage can it will get recylced- after collection. I still don't think this makes any sense but the MTA swears it is cheaper.

"Tours" Section

I hate the "Tours" section! It risks spiraling out of control with more and more listings of paid tours. In order to shorten this article, shouldn't we eliminate all but the free tours? In theory, shouldn't the WikiTravel articles for New York be sufficient for readers to do their own self-guided tours, anyway? I am strongly inclined to delete all entries for paid tours and in fact eliminate the section, unless we can exercise some kind of quality or/and price control. Your opinions? Michael 04:48, 26 August 2008 (EDT)

OK, the "Tours" section is better now, but I still don't like its placement. I'd rather put it last under "Do" than first under "Do" - or perhaps just before "Parades." What does everybody think? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:40, 4 October 2009 (EDT)

At least for now I've removed the "Tours" section [32] as it seemed a bit spammy for a city as large as New York and none of them were in compliance with the tour listing policy. All but one of the listed tours failed to provide an address, and I don't think any of them met the "you can't do this on your own" threshold. Most of this were also borough-specific, so if they need to be resurrected I suggest moving them to the appropriate district article. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 18:21, 26 March 2010 (EDT)

shopping on Sun morning

Would someone give recommendations for my situation?

I am going to have a connection stop in NYC flying from Seattle to Moscow. My flight will arrive to JFK at 06:54am, and I'll have to depart at 4:30pm--all on Sunday in the end of October.

Questions:

• are there any chances I will be not allowed to leave airport transfer area and spend some time in the downtown?
• how much time will I really have in the downtown, if I choose something cheaper than taxi for transfer from/to the airport? (and will have connections within the same airline, Delta--therefore not have to wait for luggage(?))
• if I focus on affordable designer clothes shopping as my primary focus for this short visit, where should I go first--keeping in mind it will be Sun morning?
• anything non-obvious re my situation that is worth considering/keeping in mind?

Thanks a lot. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 05:44, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

duty free shops at JFK

When planning my business trip to the US, I faced the following question:

I will have a short connection in NYC JFK, after staying for 3 days in Seattle. Is there anything in JFK airport duty-free(?) shops that can't be found in an average dutyfree like Moscow or Dubai or Athens? Can dutyfree in JFK serve as a substitute to shopping in a regular store in NYC/other US city--and for what types of goods?

In the light of vfd for JFK, the fact that NYC is districtified and its airports section is already quite large--where should we stick the info for questions like mine? NYC's main article? Stop VFDing JFK article? Create a separate district article for airport :-)? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 04:17, 8 October 2008 (EDT)

BUMP. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 10:59, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

I can propose that we put that kind of info into a subsection of Buy, let say "Shopping in airports". I can understand that it can more or less fit it there, at least while there's only overview info, and no listings appear. However, what about in-airport restaurants and cafes--where can we put overview for them and even describe individual establishments? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 15:59, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

OK, before we reached consensus on separate article for JFK, I plunged forward in the NYC article with some content on shopping at JFK. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:54, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Standing on Line

I am not going to get into an editing war about this expression, but in New York City, we do not stand "in line"; we stand "on line." As this article is about New York City, I think we should use New York City English - mind you, not some kind of difficult to understand slang or something, but just as I would replace "whilst" with "while," I would replace "stand in line" with "stand on line" - in THIS article, and not in any articles about anyplace outside of New York City. Michael 01:06, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

So we should use "New York City English" here? I'd personal favor Standard English for all articles. If there's a real difference in the local lexicon that can be pointed out, but "standing in line" and "standing on line" are both immediately recognized and both used interchangably in New York and elsewhere.

I have another solution. I'll put the New York City usage in parenthetically. Michael 22:12, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Tipping and dress in the restaurant section

I changed the tipping and dress section, but it got changed back.

The text before I changed it had a few problems. For tipping, it doesn't match my perception of reality and seems instead to be based upon the uninformed wives' tales people outside the city pass around about poor starving waiters. I've lived with waiters and bartenders, and I've gone to restaurants with groups of locals of various classes and backgrounds over the last five years, and the former text is overly generous and prudish. It almost made it sound as though the waiter demanding his 18% would make you wash dishes to pay it off if you refused, when in reality all you need to do in that situation is say, "Im sorry, but I'm afraid it wasn't an accident. goodnight," and if he gets indignant he's in the wrong. And in five years it's only occurred once, when I was thoroughly drunk with someone the bartender knew was European. The tipping customs I've seen are about the same as anywhere in the US, and the waiters and bartenders I've lived with are if anything overcompensated, more or less by their own admission. They've not complained about their compensation, except when they don't get paid at all because the restaurant owner is paying them under the table and stiffing them.

For dress, it was excessively chatty without giving any real information, and certainly not any New York-specific information. What was there before fits for more or less any first-world city. I removed what I think are the "weirdly passive-aggressive" parts which I thought entertaining, and kept the parts that reflect my experience of the difference between New York dress and other US cities. Perhaps it could be shortened further, but I think if it's made longer the information needs to be New York-specific, and based on people who actually have experience eating in restaurants with dress codes, not on rambling anecdote.

69.31.131.39 19:54, 11 January 2009 (EST)

As the other person involved there, I was mostly looking askance at the digressions involving Australian Aboriginal youth and fallout-shelter pajamas. Certainly the advice to wear good shoes in high-end restaurants is correct, but I don't think it's specific to Manhattan or even NYC (except to the extent that the city has substantially more such restaurants than any other U.S. city), and as such it's not advice that ends right at the borough's border. Similarly, though the staff of those restaurants are well-paid, that doesn't seem to justify a blanket statement that "bartenders and waitstaff aren't undercompensated" - a waiter at Nobu and one at a tiny little taqueria up in Inwood may as well live on different planets.

Because NYC does have truly high-end restaurants and many visitors come from cities where those simply don't exist, I agree with putting in some brief advice on the topic - but also emphasizing that the other 99% of the city plays by the same rules as everywhere else in the nation. (And hey, gotta give the handful of top tier places in Brooklyn their due too.)

My friends and I never followed that overcoat rule, but perhaps we were all doing it wrong and never knew it.  :) - (WT-en) Dguillaime 20:13, 11 January 2009 (EST)

As a native New Yorker, I agree that the custom is to at least double the tax for tipping for acceptable service in restaurants here, and the tax is 8.25%. Tipping in bars is a dollar a drink, though some people may tip more in ritzy cocktail bars or for particularly good service, so "at least a dollar a drink" would be my rule of thumb. As for New Yorkers shivering, I disagree. On a personal level, I wear a leather jacket unless it's bitterly cold (below the mid-20s F.), but that's because I have a very warm, thick woolen sweater under it (and most of the people I see on the streets are wearing parkas and such in that weather). But more generally, I think that most New Yorkers are practical, and the people I see dressing for summertime while going out to bars and clubs in midwinter don't tend to be New Yorkers, but rather, what we call "B&Ters," meaning "Bridge and Tunnel" people visiting from New Jersey and Long Island. You could ask me how I know for sure, but when you live in the East Village, you can recognize them pretty easily, especially considering that none of them were coming here until the last few years. (Sure, we had visitors, but they were intrepid sorts who dressed like New Yorkers, not the young, underdressed partyers who are here for the "scene," just as in the Meat Packing District. This neighborhood was not so safe 15 years ago.) 68.161.181.20 03:19, 12 January 2009 (EST)

I believe new yorkers do wear different shoes than suburban americans. I tend to get my shoes shined every week or two when I'm not going completely ragged, and in the city I feel I fit in fine, but when I go back to the suburbs in the same shoes people are kind of shocked and almost laugh because they've never seen something so shiny except on a marine or a train conductor. And in the suburbs, business-casual can mean shirt and tie without jacket, plus a big puffing camping jacket worn inside the car or just kept in the car in case of breakdown, while in NYC busines casual is more likely to mean shirt and jacket without tie, or perhaps you wear the jacket only when going to a bar after work, with generic overcoat, or as you said 68.161.181.20 some other non-synthetic, non-camping jacket made of natural materials, and big puffy camping jackets are only worn in outer boroughs, or as I've seen once or twice by certain women who have special understanding of how to match specific puffy jackets with outfits. However obviously fashion sense differs hugely and I haven't got a whole lot of it myself, so if we cannot agree that New Yorkers wear different shoes and coats than elsewhere in the US, then let's drop that part entirely. It's also not about restaurants. But before we drop it could you have a look at the minimal version I submitted.

On the non-winter restaurants dress part, I'd like to challenge the existing text---it's sort of chatting-braggy, and leaves me wondering whether the person who wrote it has ever been to a restaurant with a serious dress code. I haven't, nor have most of my friends, so it's hard for me to correct it, but I think it sounds like suspicious garbage, and if it is, it's worse than nothing. I've heard rumors of borrowable jackets before, and I wonder if that's the source---rumor? Do you know for a fact that Per Se has borrowable jackets, and that you can wear one without looking like an ass? I'm not sure it's appropriate to show up expecting to borrow one. Two of my friends who went there last Tuesday certainly didn't think so, and had to buy clothes and have them fitted for the occasion. What are women supposed to do in that situation? And what is the real requirement---is it simply black tie, or will you look like a total clown if you show up in some classy NYE eveningwear? Most usefully, how does it differ from what an outsider able to afford such a place would likely have experience with---for example, how does Per Se's dress code differ from a catered suburban evening fundraiser held in a tent or community center or something? The advice to look up photos on the internet of people at restaurants is ridiculous---first, it won't work, second, wtf? It's just wildly inappropriate to put that here.

There's nothing about aboriginees or fallout shelter pajamas in the second version i submitted, which you also rolled back Dguillaime, so I won't bother defending it but ask that you do no further rollbacks on the basis of aboriginees---this is necessarily an argument about text, not authorship, because we're not supposed to behave as though there's a single author, so you're not allowed to roll back everything I write because in the first version I told a joke that was funny to me and not to you. What my joke sort of captured for me is the holier-than-thou attitude mixed with pah, don't worry about it. I think we should make it much shorter and focus on flat information, and where we don't know say nothing, don't try to convey an attitude---which is different from both the original version and what i submitted.

As for tipping in bars, a dollar a drink is also my custom. My friends and I still use double-the-tax when we have a tab at a bar, but I think we should rewrite this thing mroe thoroughly and add the dollar a drink thing. But it's not quite the same as restaurant tipping because if you don't hand the guy a dollar it's not some giant transgression the way no tip in a restaurant would be. I'm not saying we should try to convince people not to tip in bars, just: first, that if you pay $5 for a $5 drink, and later pay $10 for a $8 drink, you can feel fine about it, and won't get nasty looks after the first drink, and second, under the principle of traveller-comes-first if you WANT to be stingy you WILL get away with it. My impression is that drink tipping is all about settling fast and karma.

Of course you are right Dguillame that waiters make different amounts at each restaurant, but this isn't specific local knowledge, it's just obvious. I would still argue tip inflation is out of control in NYC, based on my specific local knowledge. My only personal exception is that I do tip excessively on curry row (6th st btn 1st and 2nd) because the prices are so low I'm afraid my favorite place will go out of business, but I wouldn't dream of using wikivoyage to trick others into doing the same like "it's customary to tip 30% or more at curry row because the prices are so low"---it's not. That's just my pet mission, which is what this 18-20% thing and all the verbage about supposedly undercompensated waitstaff seems like. What shouldn't be contentious, is that this is not the place to stand up for waiters by trying to inflate their tips, even in an alternate world where they WERE undercompensated, so we don't really need to argue about how much they're compensated and probably shouldn't discuss it in the article either. The point is to tell travellers (1) what other people are doing, so they don't look like asses, and (2) what reaction they can expect, so they're not surprised, and so they know when someone is behaving oddly or taking advantage. Under (1), we need to say double-the-tax, *NOT* 18-20%. Under (2), we need to say that sometimes waiters will confront you demanding their tip, but they're probably doing this because European tourists sometimes don't understand the custom, not because the tipping rules are different than elsewhere in the US---we might mention that if you're confronted for a tip, (a) you don't necessarily need to take offense because it's not totally uncommon, and (b) even if confronted it's still, within reason, your discretion what to tip, unless the service charge is included on the bill. The current text doesn't do (2) either.

so have a look at my third revision.

(WT-en) carton 13:58, 17 January 2009 (EST)

I went to River Cafe several years ago, and they did require men who weren't wearing jackets to borrow one of theirs. I don't believe Per Se requires jackets; very few restaurants in New York do anymore.

For the record, I tip at least 20% at restaurants, and don't just double the tax. I think many New Yorkers pay more than double the tax for tips, nowadays. "_At least_ double the tax" works better for me.

68.161.188.129 21:42, 19 January 2009 (EST)

Just from a traveler perspective - I don't really care about good or bad service, keeping a favourite restaurant in business, how much waiters earn in each restaurant. I care about doing the right thing by the vendors in Cambodia, but I generally figure that New York waiters can look out for themselves. Everywhere I have been in the US I have just tipped a straight 15% in every restaurant I've ever eaten in. I've never had a waiter anywhere be rude to me, argue with me, and I don't think I've caused any poor waiter to go hungry that night. This section doesn't need to be the ultimate guide to best tipping practice in New York. What I want to know is how to go our, have a meal, and just pay the right amount at the end. I'm rarely going to use a trip to NY to make a point about the service, I'll just pay the money, and be done with it. I'd think many travelers would be the same, and the advice that you are free to leave no tip for poor service isn't really that helpful to a traveler IMO. --(WT-en) Inas 18:26, 20 January 2009 (EST)

Currency exchange in Penn station

Anybody know if I can change currency in Penn station? Would like to change CAD -> USD. Is it better to do so in Penn station or at my local Canadian bank?

-F.D. [ 76.67.101.251 15:35, 21 February 2009 (EST) ]

Atleast when I lived in Canada, my Canadian bank did the exchange for free, whereas the U.S. Bank charges a fee. Why not just withdraw U.S. dollars from the ATM once you get here? Currency exchanges in New York are one of the world's biggest rip offs.

My bank charges a $5 fee. I could exchange locally at my bank but I've heard it's usually better to get a country's currency from the country itself. -FD [ 99.237.93.90 12:37, 25 February 2009 (EST) ]

Airport section

I think it's way too long and contains a lot of information that won't be relevant to most users. After all, if you're traveling into and out of Kennedy, you really don't care about the airport in Newburgh. Would it be permissible to encapsulate all the information and leave the details on a separate page? What do you all think? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:11, 18 June 2009 (EDT)

Please see Talk:John F. Kennedy International Airport; if you have further arguments beyond what has already been covered, feel free to bring them up here. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:33, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

Thanks for the link. I see there was a decision to delete an article about JFK and merge it into the New York article. I gather the rationale for treating airports differently from neighborhoods (districts) is mainly that they generally don't have hotels on site. If that's the main distinction, I don't really get it. But perhaps a stronger argument was that someone traveling to New York would want information about how to get there included in the main article. Do you think that was the main reason for merging all the airport information? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:24, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Yes. Only if the information we include on JFK in New York (city)#Get in becomes too long to include there should we split it out and create a new article. I'm not certain I'm in full agreement with that consensus, but that is the consensus. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:10, 21 June 2009 (EDT)

Teaching people how to walk on a sidewalk

An anonymous user added instructions for how to walk on sidewalks in the "By foot" section of this article. I reverted that edit as something that was so basic and obvious that we don't need to include it, but my revert was undone in this edit. I don't disagree that in any large city where people walk from place to place there are going to be people who are obnoxious and stop suddenly or block busy sidewalks, but do we really need to dumb this article down to the level of telling people not to do that? We've reverted numerous edits that are common sense in the past ("don't make fun of Americans about 9/11" is a recurring one in the USA article) and I think this one is very much in the same category. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 10:07, 8 October 2009 (EDT)

Only in America :). Could not resist.. it is just too easy to make fun. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:12, 8 October 2009 (EDT)

Ha! I would be all for a new How to walk article, as this can indeed be a tricky endeavour with the lack of accelerators and breaks, do our small part to saving the planet and all. But the NYC guide is bloated enough as it is ;o) --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 11:26, 8 October 2009 (EDT)

I've started a How to walk guide here. I very much look forward to seeing it grow and develop. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:21, 8 October 2009 (EDT)

As the person who undid the edit, I want to address it further. For some time now, it's been very unpleasant to walk near Times Square, because of all the stopped or slow-moving tourists who look up at the lights. But most New Yorkers have simply conceded that area to tourists. I live in the East Village - a residential neighborhood on every street - and have been increasingly annoyed by tourists making it hard for me to keep up a fast pace when I need to get somewhere. They tend to block the whole sidewalk, particularly on St Marks Place, 1st Av. near 6th St., and outside of certain bars. So if we don't include an exhortation to refrain from blocking sidewalks, etc. in the general New York City article, I certainly hope that at least no-one deletes such remarks in district articles, such as the East Village one, where it's particularly relevant.

Peter, good for you for starting a "How to walk" guide, but since, as far as I can see, it's not even linked to from the New York City article, I don't think many potential visitors to New York will see it. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 17:16, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

The respect section is basically the Wikivoyage bête noire for many regular contributors. Locals in tourist-heavy destinations tend to find tourists pretty annoying, and see respect sections as a good place to air their grievances, leading those sections to get bloated with really obvious tips that are not particular to the destination, and can come across as fairly condescending. The problem of content duplication is probably the number one problem. And personally, I think that adding the commonsense info to Wikivoyage isn't going to make a dent in poor behavior by the more clueless tourist, who likely doesn't spend much time reading web 2.0 travel guides anyway. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:58, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

You're probably right that it won't make a dent, and it's probably worth thinking about which tips are not particular to a destination, such as the differences between attitudes toward jaywalking in New York as compared with places where people wait for the green light all the time. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 22:48, 11 October 2009 (EDT)

Incorrect Map

The subway map is no longer correct--the G has been extended to Church street. (WT-en) Rastapopulous 19:39, 31 March 2010 (EDT)

It looks like this map is correct? If so, I'll export a PNG from it for our use. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 20:41, 31 March 2010 (EDT)

The current map is correct for now. The G extension, as well as a number of more significant service changes, do not go into effect until the end of June. The subway fans over at WP seem to be a dedicated lot, I'm sure a revised map will appear at that time. — (WT-en) D. Guillaime 21:53, 31 March 2010 (EDT)

June 2009, not 2010 (at least according to the mTA). It's already happened. (WT-en) Rastapopulous 01:02, 1 April 2010 (EDT)

That map is correct, but doesn't preserve to colors from the old map (where locals and expresses were colored slightly differently) —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Rastapopulous (talk • contribs)

I have swapped in the new one. It's one hell of an SVG! It's so detailed, though, that it's too hard to read to be travel-guide–friendly. Perhaps somewhat zoomed-in versions would be useful for the individual boroughs? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 20:20, 1 April 2010 (EDT)

That might not be a bad idea, esp. for Manhattan, which has a large body of work already, and Brooklyn, which is being worked on. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Rastapopulous (talk • contribs)

Although, overall, I do think that the MTA map is ultimately more useful than any third-party generated map. Maybe that's just me though. (WT-en) Rastapopulous 13:36, 5 April 2010 (EDT)

Breadcrumb

Why does the breadcrumb navigation skip New York State? (WT-en) Rastapopulous 16:11, 6 April 2010 (EDT)

New York City is within Metro New York which spans three states. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 16:17, 6 April 2010 (EDT)

While true, I've never cared for the side effect that Rastapopulous noted. (WT-en) LtPowers 16:46, 6 April 2010 (EDT)

It sure would be nice to have an optional extra parameter in the isPartOf rdf template for situations like this. Vladivostok is placed in Europe, despite lying squarely on the opposite side of the Earth from that continent. I'll add that to my list of tech requests in hopes that we some day will have the ability to fulfill them... --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 20:18, 6 April 2010 (EDT)

I think it would be better as being in New York state rather than the metro area. Partly because New York city itself is squarely w/in the state (unlike, say, Kansas City), and, as the article mentions, many New Yorkers are somewhat hostile to the idea that they are part of the broader Metro area. Maybe the Metro area would be better as get out? (WT-en) Rastapopulous 21:11, 6 April 2010 (EDT)

I think the Metro area shouldn't even be used, as they all fall under different subregions of the respective states. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 17:08, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

I don't know what breadcrumb navigation is, but I agree with Globe-trotter. People in the New York Metropolitan Area know we're there, but it's not a very useful designation for travelers. They (and we, if we adopted the designation) would presumably face useless questions like whether Bridgeport, CT is within or outside of the "Tri-State" metro area. Why would we really care? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:09, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

I'd remark that we have many regions that are truly traveler useless - they are arbitary geographical names. However, there are some which seem to have potential as s cohesive set of destinations to visit. If we have a cohesive travel destination region, we should always prioritize that region ahead of the geographical or political one. I'd think there would be more to say to a traveller about the tri-state area then about New York State - as a region. The argument over what New Yorkers may prefer should be ignored, or left for the Respect section. --(WT-en) inas 23:55, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

As an aside, if you think we have a lot of "truly traveler useless" regions, please propose changes. A huge amount of work has been done by the region map-making group to set up sensible travel regions. If these do not work, then users should be commenting. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 00:05, 8 April 2010 (EDT)

I think he means "arbitrary geographical names" like "New York", "Ontario", or even "United States of America", none of which could really be described as "cohesive". (WT-en) LtPowers 09:20, 8 April 2010 (EDT)

Metro New York absolutely doesn't have to be a part of our breadcrumb trail (and I say that as the one who made it so), although I still think it's a useful article. Why don't we just leave the links to it, but direct the hierarchical navigation around it? (I.e., make it an extra-hierarchical region.) That's basically what Rastapopulous was suggesting, I think. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 11:26, 8 April 2010 (EDT)

I'd be okay with that, but I'd be worried about losing the ability to get back up to Metro New York from New York City, since the former is linked as a subregion of New York (state). Still, I'd rather lose that than continue to leave the state out. (WT-en) LtPowers 21:35, 8 April 2010 (EDT)

The New Jersey part of the Metro Area is already in Gateway, Jersey Shore and Skylands, while the Connecticut part is already in Fairfield County and Greater New Haven. I think we could just place Metro New York as a subregion of New York (state) and then just let users know that parts outside of New York (state) could also be counted to the region. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 16:20, 18 July 2010 (EDT)

Airport-to-airport

I think this is excessively detailed. How much space should we really devote to this? How common is it for a visitor to NYC to need to transfer airports? (WT-en) LtPowers 09:53, 9 June 2010 (EDT)

I have seen airline booking sites offer such itineraries (e.g., domestic flight to Newark, changing to a trans-Atlantic flight from JFK), but can't imagine they're popular choices — the ground transfers are either expensive or slow. I don't think that edit adds enough to the article for its length: the public transit options to Manhattan are already covered below, and airport-to-airport connections are just two of those stuck together. The local buses aren't any fun to haul luggage on, either! However, mentioning the approximate time it takes has value, I'll add a brief comment to that effect. — (WT-en) D. Guillaime 17:04, 9 June 2010 (EDT)

Subway Cuts

The subway cuts have come into place, and our map is out of date. Unfortunately, I haven't got a clue how to make these maps, but here's a summary of the basic changes:

• The V and the W have been discontinued
• The M, after Delancey-Essex St, takes over the old V route rather than its old route. As a result, it is now designated orange.
• The Q now continues to Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard on weekdays
• The N is now local in Manhattan
• The G now terminates at LIC-Court Square at all times

(WT-en) Rastapopulous 12:54, 18 July 2010 (EDT)

That map is from Wikipedia, under CC licensing. There's an updated version we can reuse. — (WT-en) D. Guillaime 16:07, 18 July 2010 (EDT)

Boroughs status

NYC isn't too far from guide status, actually, as only the five boroughs need to be at usable status. Bronx needs basic work, and Queens needs to finalize a valid districts structure (the bigger task). Of the following, both Manhattan and Staten Island are not too far from guides status. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:22, 23 July 2010 (EDT)

Borough	Status
Front Page	Guide
Manhattan	Guide
Brooklyn	Usable
Queens	Usable
Bronx	Usable
Staten Island	Guide

Every borough is at usable status now, so I'm going to upgrade this to guide status. (WT-en) Sumone10154 19:47, 28 January 2011 (EST)

No clue if people use this anymore, but Staten Island's been at guide status for a bit. I changed the table to reflect that. Nick1372 (talk) 00:05, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Getting Around Cleanup

All, I've been making a bunch of edits lately trying to clean up and simplify the "getting around" section. An issue was raised regarding the "Important Subway Lines in Manhattan" section. I "plunged forward" and initially removed it, and it was restored and a comment posted on my page asking for further discussion.

I'm posting the discussion here in the hopes to continue it:

Hi. I appreciate all the work you've been doing on the New York City guide, but I'm wondering why you decided to delete the information under the subtitle "Important [subway] lines in Manhattan." Perhaps it's misnamed, since it actually wasn't singlemindedly Manhattan-centric, but was it still too Manhattan-centric for the New York City guide, in your opinion? Or were you perhaps intending to move it to the Manhattan guide? Or was it something else? If you prefer, we can discuss this on the "Talk" page for the New York City guide, but I thought you might have a better chance of seeing the initial questions here.

All the best,

(WT-en) Ikan Kekek 04:38, 16 April 2011 (EDT)

-Hi Ikan. You are right. My initial thoughts are that after reading the New York City guide, a lot of the information is overwhelming and is downright confusing in a lot of areas. Living in New York, I am aware that our subway lines can be very confusing. However, I think the main purpose of a travel guide should not be detailing the individual subway routes. That is something a visitor should be redirected to see on an NYC Subway Map or Google Maps, and that what should be featured on the main guide is general information about how to safely and properly ride on the subway. In NYC, every subway line is important in some way because there is so much to see and do. The section in question was highly Manhattan-centric, and therefore is best included on the Manhattan page (and the outer borough components best included there) as it addresses many of the neighborhoods and tourist attractions discussed on those boroughs' respective pages.

(WT-en) Hockeyman001 02:30, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

I respect your thoughts, Hockeyman. Perhaps you'd like to continue the discussion on the Talk ("discussion") page for the New York City article. Feel free to copy the exchange we've already had from this page or point to it. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 02:57, 17 April 2011 (EDT)

So to summarize, I think the "getting around" information is a bit excessively voluminous in some areas and will be working to simplify it periodically, as well as remove redundant information. In the case of important subway lines, I think it makes more sense to list neighborhoods in the borough pages (as well as subway lines used to arrive at them) there, same as subway directions are given to attractions in the neighborhood pages. Then there's some sort of logical hierarchy followed: City -> Basics of getting around, orientation of the boroughs. Borough -> How to get to the center of its neighborhoods. Neighborhood -> Things to do in that neighborhood and how to get there (with street addresses).

Just my thoughts feel free to share yours...

(WT-en) Hockeyman001 01:13, 18 April 2011 (EDT)

For what it's worth, while I at first was a bit taken aback by so much text, including segments I had worked on, being deleted, I tend to support Hockeyman's reasoning. The New York City article is overly long and could do with quite a lot of editing for brevity. Whatever valuable information that could appropriately and usefully be moved to borough or district articles should be. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:22, 18 April 2011 (EDT)

I agree completely. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:02, 18 April 2011 (EDT)

JFK connections

This edit is well-intentioned, I'm sure, but aside from being unnecessarily over-dramatic, I also think it's out of scope. This article is about New York City; no one going to NYC is going to make a connection at JFK, since this is their destination. (WT-en) LtPowers 16:51, 3 August 2011 (EDT)

Since the only place we mention airports is in their host cities, many city articles do have information on making connections there, and I can't think of where else the information would go. However, I do agree it is overly dramatic. --(WT-en) Inas 17:14, 1 December 2011 (EST)

A flaw, perhaps, in our airport coverage? (WT-en) LtPowers 21:01, 1 December 2011 (EST)

Proper icons for subway lines

I know it's not the most high-priority kind of thing, but wouldn't it be awesome to use the correct colored circles and diamonds for subway lines, like on WP? I believe it would be as simple as making a template so that instead of "6" you would write "{{NYCS|6}}". --(WT-en) BigPeteB 17:08, 1 December 2011 (EST)