Talk:South Central Arizona

Removed Regions

I removed the following sub-region links so that people don't create them too soon and confuse the geographical hierarchy thats set up here. When they're warranted, lob them back into the guide! -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 09:36, 6 May 2007 (EDT)

==Regions==
'''Counties''': 
* [[Pima County]]
* [[Pinal County]]
* [[Santa Cruz County (Arizona)|Santa Cruz County]] 

Listings in a rural region

Given the recent addition of 'move to city' tags to this article, perhaps this would be a good opportunity to finally resolve the longstanding issue of how to handle sparsely-populated regions, some of which may also have a town or two.

This has been discussed at length several times, most recently here and here. I'm not going to repeat my previous arguments, but would like to point out that all the listings on this page are a either a long distance from a town of any size, or the nearest town in my opinion does not merit its own article (with the possible exception of Sonoita-Elgin). I still believe that adding these listings to unrelated and far-removed city articles is unhelpful and confusing to travelers. –StellarD (talk) 17:06, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

If that's the case, I think the two solutions that would better comport with Wikivoyage policy and guidelines would be either: (1) Create an article for "Rural South Central Arizona" and move the listing there, or (2) leave the listings here, but with an introduction mentioning in prose notable sights or businesses as relevant, including those that are in the cities, so that the rural listings don't get disproportionate attention, and then state something like "The listings below are in rural areas far outside the cities listed in the #Cities section above. For full listings in each of those cities, see the article for each city." Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:21, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Edit was suggested for biosphere2 as it is one of the most prominent visitor areas for the region and state. The area north of Tucson having little information in the regional guide. It apparently was already listed under Oracle. It is however not actually in Oracle. Closer to the Saddlebrooke area, which does not have a listing. Due to rural nature the mailing address may have “Oracle” in it for Biosphere but only for mailing purposes. That is a common practice for the area. By comparison there is a distinct listing for the “water park” in Marana. Marana is a connected suburb of Tucson, like Oro Valley. Not a rural destination. Why would Biosphere2 (a huge science museum destination) go into Oracle, which it is not actually in, when a listing for a water park (not even a regional desitination) is on the first page of regional guide? Biosphere2 might be more appropriately be either on first page of rural guide or under Tucson for section containing major attractions outside of town. But not under Oracle. A listing could be made for Saddlebrooke(missing to date)to contain many of the restaurants, festivals,concert venues and some of the other facilities in the area of north of Tucson. It could take care of area Saddlebrooke and Saddlebrooke Ranch. There are some fairly famous spas and climbing areas, nature preserves in the northern area also. The suggested edits to add some rural restaurants north of Tucson were removed with instructions to move to city. But did not enter them into city, as it would be confusing and not make sense to visitors to the area. Since am new to this, will leave it all to the experts. Was attempting to fill in some informations to guide. Lots of information for south of Tucson, not much for area north. Just providing some perceptions of the guides. Sbariz (talk) 15:48, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi Sbariz, thank you for your edits! Yes, the matter of how to handle rural listings is not straightforward, but Ikan Kekek above has suggested a very good solution which should work not only for this article but also for Southeast Arizona and Eastern Arizona.

The Biosphere2 was probably added to Oracle because it's the nearest town, and we try to avoid duplicate listings on this site.

I personally added the coffee shop but didn't create an article for the town of Arivaca because I don't believe there's enough content to warrant one. Regarding Saddlebrooke, if after reading this guideline you believe it should have its own article, please go ahead and create one, or if you can't figure out how to do that, please let me know and I'll create a skeleton for you to fill in.

–StellarD (talk) 16:40, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

I did understand the coffee entry as not being near a city. That was same logic I initially applied in suggested restaurant entries started. There were no cities close enough for the restaurants to be logical. There are a few cafes, attractions in the northern part of region and they are the same as the coffeehouse logic. So perception of it and consistency. When visitors look at that page, no logic in having one coffeehouse listed without similar entries. Just as the water park from marana makes no sense. Would the regional listings make more sense to just have a clickable link for drinks or eats? With the individual listings there? To have one listing for drinks and nothing else seems non-logical. Like if there are others, but they need to be moved to cities or towns they are not associated with closely. In regards to Biosphere2, regardless if it is in Oracle or not. 99% of the visitors to it come from Tucson/ Oro Valley/ Saddlebrooke/Catalina short term stays and hotels. Not Oracle. It is of similar, if not greater significance to those attractions listed on Tucson page section as “outside of city”. It is considered to be one of the major visits for activities on Tucson regional visits. Would it make more sense to a visitor to have it on Tucson page and just have a link under Oracle. I see that Santa Catalina mountains are duplicated under Oracle and other locations. Oracle is not primary access point for Catalinas but it is significant to Oracle. It is also significant to Oro Valley, Tucson, Saddlebrooke area, Mt Lemmon, etc.Sbariz (talk) 18:10, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

I understand the confusion with the apparent illogic of listing a coffee shop but no restaurants in this article. This is an unfortunate consequence of the site's hierarchical structure and the resulting ad hoc approach to dealing with rural regions. The first restaurant you added was removed because it should be listed in Tucson; the second I removed because it appeared to be a dining facility for a retirement community and likely of little interest to independent travelers. If you feel strongly that the second restaurant would indeed be useful for travelers, please re-add it, or add it to a new Saddlebrooke article. As Ikan Kekek outlined above, each section of this regional article should include a statement that the following listings are far from any related city.

If you believe that the water park should be moved to the Tucson article, please go ahead and move it there. I don't feel strongly either way regarding the Biosphere 2; it could be moved as you prefer to South Central Arizona or to the Tucson article, to the section outside of town.

Per policy, individual listings for the Santa Catalina Mountains should indeed be removed from the Tucson and Oracle articles, and replaced with a brief description and link to the article in the 'Go next' sections. This also applies to Sabino Canyon and Saguaro National Park, and to the Peppersauce Campground listing in Oracle which is also listed in the Santa Catalina Mountains article.

–StellarD (talk) 08:36, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

The request was to move the eats to Tucson, which is about 20 miles away. You would have to drive thru two other towns before even getting to Tucson. Although most of the area uses Tucson or Saddlebrooke as legal addresses. That was probably some marketing ploy by developers many years ago. It is actually in different county. So mailing addresses make no sense to many, including me. Became familiar with all that, since coming to area just south of there.Been putting some blogging notes for outdoor activity articles. The one restaurant The Preserve is a popular spot for views of Catalinas , run by adjacent community but public. Another I was in process of adding is a hwy steakhouse, when questions came up. Both are open to the public and used by visitors, Miraval spa guests, hikers, cycling groups and travelers enroute between Tucson and Phoenix via hwy 77. None of the retirement restricted restaurants would be listed, as that would not be appropriate. For now I will just add the two for the rural area. And maybe one other which would be in/ under Oracle's section. When I finish up the research for the rest of the area,(approximately 2 wks, I may contact you or attempt to put together some highlights for the area. as there are some noted climbing, and nature preserves in the area that may be of interest. Will leave to you or others to move the Biosphere2 to Tucson or not. To me that seemed the best spot for any visitors and travelers to area. Sbariz (talk) 15:36, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Sbariz for the clarifications – please add whatever restaurants you see fit. Because adding Tucson or Saddlebrooke to the address may be confusing to other readers (as it was to me), it would be helpful to include directions, e.g. '20 miles N of Tucson', or 'near Eloy', etc. in the appropriate field of the listing template, as well as any GPS coordinates.

Any other highlights you may wish to add, especially outdoor activities, will be most welcome. Please do not hesitate to ask if you have any questions! –StellarD (talk) 17:06, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't know this area, so I'll just say that I'm content with you two, who do, working out where things should be listed, with the policy-/guideline-based caveats I posted above. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:04, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I have created some new articles and moved some listings to existing articles in order to make navigation easier for readers, but I welcome any changes that other contributors might think are appropriate. Ground Zero (talk) 05:33, 15 December 2021 (UTC)