Renamed user dj65cf874dfh44

Mae Salong Revert

What is up with the Mae Salong revert? I was just there. Were you? How about giving a reason. I am continually dealing with your reverts. Tedious and frankly annoying. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 14:49, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for butting in, but I noticed that Seligne hadn't been able to reply to you yet, Jeff.

Seligne does a fantastic job adding content to our S E Asian (and, especially, Thailand articles) and I notice that she was editing just after you did, so it may be that the revert was just a quick technical measure before working the great slant on things that you provided into the whole article. Maybe she had your contribution in a notepad or something and she was then distracted - who knows.

I do understand how a revert - not used for vandalism or an otherwise bad faith edit - can sometimes feel like a slap around the face. I'm sure that would not have been what Seligne intended as she is one of our most thoughtful and careful editors and we certainly do value and respect the contributions you make here, Jeff, and want you to keep making many more great edits to expand (and correct and update where necessary) our content. You do make a good point about modifying the standard revert message where it would be helpful and necessary. Thanks once again! --118.93nzp (talk) 21:35, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I've run into Seligne before, and have weathered several reverts. Frankly, if many more of these happen I won't be editing here anymore. It is not my feelings at issue here, but the fact that it takes so long to get good edits past revert-happy admins who don't think about how conditions have changed and who revere past edits more than present reality. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 10:33, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

You changed this:

Some guidebooks wax lyrical about today's Mae Salong as a miniature Yunnanese Shangri-La, but if you come with this image in mind you may be a little disappointed: at first glance, Mae Salong looks much like the little Thai town it is. However, the crisp climate, the lingering Chinese influence, delicious native Yunnanese dishes and small hotels and guesthouses catering to visitors still make this a popular getaway, accessible even on a hurried day trip but worth stopping in overnight.

To this:

Some guidebooks wax lyrical about today's Mae Salong as a miniature Yunnanese Shangri-La, but if you come with this image in mind you may be a little disappointed: at first glance, Mae Salong looks much like the little Thai town it is, predominantly populated with Hill Tribe people and relocated Thai much more than Chinese. Nevertheless, the crisp climate, the lingering Chinese influence (although much of it commercial more than endemic), passable native Yunnanese dishes and small hotels and guesthouses catering to visitors still make this a popular getaway, worth visiting even on a hurried day trip, but well worth stopping in overnight. There are several four-story modern hotels completing construction (as of Nov 2013) which aim to capitalise on the first class views across the valley.

You gave this as your reason:

Added to Doi Mae Salong, some changes there, and the description of a quaint Chinese village with very tasty food is sorely disappointing

I think the original serves the traveller better than your edit, even though the word count increased from 80 to 127.

Some specific issues:

• I do not understand what a "relocated Thai" is. This is Thailand, full of Thai people. Who relocated them? Were no Thais born there? What does this mean?

- A relocated Thai is someone who has relocated from another part of Thailand. Many from Bangkok, though they may originally have been from elsewhere. If you know Thai dialects, then you can tell that many of these guesthouse people in the North speak Central Thai predominantly. Asking them confirms that they have relocated out of Central Thailand, mostly for lifestyle choices, or with aging parents seeking a slower pace of life.

• "...Chinese influence (although much of it commercial more than endemic..." What does this mean? "Endemic" refers to a condition regularly found among particular people or in a certain area. Does it mean "commercial more than local"? What does that mean? Why put travellers in a position of having to decipher your cryptic musings?

- I'm not sure if these are real questions. Much of what is now going in in Doi Mae Salong have to do with commercialization of "Chinese-like" character of the place. This is for Chinese tourists.

• You (snidely, in my opinion) give as your reason for your change, ...the description of a quaint Chinese village with very tasty food is sorely disappointing) What? The OP described the food as ...delicious native Yunnannese dishes... You describe the food as ...passable native Yunnanese dishes... What happened to the ...very tasty food... you give as the reason for the change?

- My response is quite genuine. I expected something based on the previous description, and it really wasn't there. The food is not very good. There are better Yunnanese restaurants in Chiang Mai, in my opinion.

• Yes, new hotels are being built. How exactly is this of value to the traveller?

- How exactly is the fact of new hotels being built is of value to the traveler? I'm not sure how this is a real question. The fact of new hotels to stay in should be of immense interest to travelers. Actually most construction is complete, and they are being outfitted for December occupancy.

I apologise for not giving a reason for the revert. I hit "undo" and, to my surprise, was not given the opportunity to explain myself. I should have gone to the Talk page and done so, but it was getting late...

I am sure you feel I do not value your efforts, but I do. But more important than your bruised feelings or mine is the quality of our product. Seligne (talk) 01:07, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

- Try not to revert my postings, but instead ask the questions you have to me, and I can correct if need be. Frankly I am tired of people undoing changes which are meant to, and demonstrably improve these listings. It makes people tired and unwilling to spend time here. And then you get what, a travel guide which gets out of touch with the reality that is the places. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 10:29, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Seligne. I've been observing the interaction between you and Jeffmcneill, and I slept on it before deciding that it's better to let you know what's on my mind, rather than keep silent out of deference to you. I'll start by saying that I have the utmost respect for your work, was very happy that you agreed to be an admin, and consider you a great admin. That said, I'd also be concerned if we chase away someone who seems to me, anyway, to be a helpful editor.

I'm wondering whether there are any misunderstandings between you and Jeffmcneill. What I get from what he says is that his experience, from his recent visit to Mae Salong, is that the food is not very good and the town itself has been turned into a kind of theme park for tourists that feels inauthentic to him. He also thinks that the impending opening of new hotels is something that would interest potential visitors, partly because these hotels will be open very soon for reservations and, I'd add, also because it shows the level of development in the town. I haven't been to Mae Salong. Perhaps Jeff's observations seem unfair or inaccurate to you; is that the issue?

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:39, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I am very sensitive to the issue of driving people away from WV. And I do not want to do that. At the same time, I stand by my view that the recent edit was not an improvement to the existing text. It confuses rather than enlightens. There is no way we will become the premier open-source travel guide unless we stand head-and-shoulders above everyone else. I struggled with the issue of being a) a nice guy, or b) standing by my instincts and convictions. I went with the latter. If you think I am wrong, revert my edits. I won't be hurt or lose sleep over it. There is great value in having an impartial 3d party adjudicate these issues as they arise. Seligne (talk) 00:22, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

People who work hard at something sometimes feel they have more right over that thing (even though it is a free and open source community resource), especially when given admin powers. Well, those people are wrong and I won't be contributing any more to Wikivoyage. Seligne doesn't think that is wrong, but I sure do and I don't have the seemingly immense amount of time to keep going back and editing and explaining the kind of improvements I am making, which are fairly obvious. "Instincts and convictions" seems high-minded, but really it is just saying "I think I am right" rather than trying to reach consensus and not engaging in an edit war, which are community policies above individuals. This kind of revert behavior is what has poisoned Wikipedia and why I and many others rarely edit there any more, and it has taken root in the new Wikivoyage as well. That is simply too bad, but not altogether surprising. --Jeffmcneill (talk) 01:40, 17 November 2013 (UTC)