(WT-en) Magicmushroom

Hello, Magicmushroom! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Project:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub.

More importantly, see Project:Activity listings. We don't generally list walking tours, and we don't list anything in capital letters. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 19:29, 3 September 2009 (EDT)

Please see see Project:Activity listings#Tour listings, to understand why your edits were reverted. If that is unclear, please discuss on the article or policy talk page. Thanks --(WT-en) inas 19:39, 9 September 2009 (EDT)

Last warning — you're cruising for a bruising here. (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:17, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

Tour listings

We get around a 1000 edits per day on English Wikivoyage, and all us are unpaid volunteers, so the answer to your question is, quite simply put, that we can't catch everything. But we clean it up when we see it, as you can see in the Prague guide now. Couldn't spot anything wrong with Barcelona though, but a displaced pub-crawl. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 11:31, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

From the pub

Hey, I have just started to write on wikivoyage. My native language is not English and up to this point I I thought I understand it in superlative degree. I swear God I did my best not to violate any rules or the writing policy itself, but it turned out that I did, so I am in trouble now.. I kindly ask all administrators to help me to understand what was wrong with my contributions. I do not want to take your precious time just want kindly ask you to explain why I went wrong with these articles. I want to apologize that the days of the tours were not abbreviated properly but this is all I found as a mistake. The 3 activities I added had no more than 3 sentences per activity which is the maximum to describe an activity as you required. The tours constitute a value-added activity. Travelers can not fulfill the substance of the tour on their own. Few people learnt from these tours from Wikivoyage and they gave us positive feedback.

May I put the following 3 pieces of information on the Budapest To Do list:

Free Budapest Walking Tour is to learn about the history, society, architecture and what Hungarians are actually like. Free Communist Walking Tour is to understand the daily life of the Communist and post-Communist societies and visiting symbols of the "Soviet friendship". Free Jewish Quarter and the Best Pubs tour is to learn about the Jewish heritage and visit the hidden treasures of the neighborhood.

I kindly ask you to volunteer your help and terribly sorry for offending any of you and taking your time!

(WT-en) Magicmushroom 05:26, 12 September 2009 (EDT)agnes

What exactly is the value added by going on this tour versus going by oneself and taking along a good travel guide? When we say "value-added", we usually mean something like providing access to places one wouldn't otherwise be able to go. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:34, 12 September 2009 (EDT)

Hi LtPowers

Thanks for answering. In this case only the Communist Walking tour meets your criteria.

1. Generally speaking travelers would not be able to go to the entrance of the underground military bunker on their own as even locals do not know about it! That is Access to a place one would not otherwise be able to go. 2. Travelers would not be able to go to a typical Communist building on their own, where statuettes of Lenin, writings of Marx, pioneer uniform, Communist badges, postcards and posters, maps and guidebooks of the Communist period, original documents of the daily life can be seen, touched and taken pictures with. These relics - that can hardly be found even in the flea markets and antique shops -can be seen only by the tour members, as everything is exclusively owned by our company. That is also and access to a place and kind of an exhibition one would not otherwise be able to go. 3. There are no available guide books that would thoroughly inform travelers in-depth about post-Communism. Guide books generally do not mention any stories about the daily life, social conditions, cultural life of the Communist period. Some facts only. We bring things and stories into life’s perspective by enabling all travelers to experience the old relics with there own eyes and touch . The experience is unique since you would never find such an interactive exhibition. The tour is completely free. Travelers tip at the end only if they were satisfied. The Communist tours which take people to the statue park cost about 20 Euros. Our tours makes the information available for everybody who is interested in the topic. By the way in the statue park people will not learn anything about the everyday life, history and philosophy of the Communism but see the gigantic statues and some reliefs and a small photo exhibition. That's all about Communism..

I d kindly ask you to reconsider your decision and let me please to put the Communist tour on the 'Things to do' paragraph. /* Magicmushroom */

To justify listing the tour by saying it takes you to places that even locals don't know about, but not enter any of the details of the location or travel information into wikivoyage, runs completely contrary to our aim of providing a free and open travel guide. Wikivoyage's goal is to make travel information free and open, not to list tours whose value is to take you to places known only to private tour guides. --(WT-en) inas 17:35, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

Much of the above is questionable or simply untrue. The Statue Park can be visited independently, and the English captions for the photo exhibition are very well-written and informative, covering the full span of the history of communist Hungary. There's also usually a film running along with it. I don't know anything about the bunker she mentions, but communist paraphernalia and kitsch is in no short supply around town; otherwise, I wouldn't have a wax Lenin candle staring down from my shelf right now. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 19:37, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

TO YOU GORILLA JONES:

Allow me to kindly correct you by mentioning the following: No one has ever said that the Statue Park could not be visited independently? Yes you can definitely go there on your own. Of course it is less expensive that way and if you are lucky enough it takes you only an hour to get there. You can see 42 statues, and reliefs, an old barrack with pictures about of the Hungarian Revolution of 56 revolution. and of the Regime change in 89 along with a documentary called ’The life of the agent’. In addition to that you can buy a leaflet at the souvenir shop to read the biography of the Communist heroes. However to assume that you would understand everything about the history of the bloody Communism right away without a deeper explanaiton sounds a little bit too ambitious lol. I used to work in the statue park for years, and I had to realise that without a deeper explanation the majority of travelers did not really understand this topic at all. The why’s and how’s have always remained unexpained. Just an example: after the short time spent in the park you should at least remember any of the statues called „Russian Hungarian friendship” or „Take up arms! ”or the touchy poem at the main door or the grafity on the „Liberation monument” Let us be completely honest here, without an explanation you would never know , why the handshake of the Russian and Hungarian soldiers are symbolic, or what the line :”Everybody is a link in the chain „ symbolizes. You would never know great facts such as the tallest statue was put on the high altar of the second biggest church that was destroyed 10 days later. You would not hear anything about the dollar shops,’frigider socialism’, ’gulyas economy’, and the ’happiest barrack’. But had you attended our tours You could hear all about the above mentioned facts and even more : HISTORY OF politics, ideology, economy, menthality,supress etc and stories. from survivors of the Communism. No guidebook has insider stories written by people who actually lived in he Communism and experienced it. THIS IS THE VALUE ADDED ON THE TOURS! You are most welcome to join and highly encouraged to come and learn with us. The best part of it all that you dont even have to pay a dime. You may donate a small tip according to your budget based on the level of your satisfaction. If you were not happy at all with what we provided you with your honest feedback is our greatest compensation

I would like to bring One last thing to your kind attention. Mark: You called our relics kitches without even seeing them.. It is very disappointing to see such a tasteless judgment about the unknown, it is simply very rude my friend! We have no kitches at all! We have the Communist board games, propaganda posters and postcards, school report books, employer books, party membership book, pioneer membership book, some communist high tech item, and definitely no candles of Lenin, but a bronze statuette, which was actually from my primary school classroom taken passed by my headmaster! If I may correct you kindly The kitch is what you have.. a typical souvenir from the shop. Did you just buy the "last breath of Communism??

To you INAS: be found The ’Military Bunker’ can actually be found on wikipedia! It is called ’Rakosi bunker or F4 bunker’. You can even see a picture of the emergency exit. One out of ten local if knows about it at all. Most likely they would not. And this is definitely not because we want to hide the information! Allow me to remind you that In the post communist societies people do not really care for these things at all! This may sound a bit strange for you as I assume you had never lived in a Communist country before You know what? Never mind! You are also invited to join US at any time! We are all here for the same purpose after all and it is serve the tourists the best we can. Now, you can correct me if i am wrong. Thanks! Very Respectfully,

MM, would you please do everyone a favor and make your posts a bit concise. We're all unpaid volunteers here who would rather write travel articles than moderate with pushy business owners—please respect the time of those working with you. And to clarify that policy once more, if the value added of your tour is that you provide information and anecdotes travelers would not otherwise have, we'd ask you to share that information with the world by adding it to Wikivoyage. As Inas said above, that's what this site is about. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 04:15, 16 September 2009 (EDT)

You may have a great walking tour. Best of luck to you, and your tour. If a walking tour only goes where a normal person could go, and sees things a normal person could see (when appropriately guided), then it doesn't add value to what could be on Wikivoyage. We prefer to have the tours, itineraries, and descriptions of the sights written here. --(WT-en) inas 04:57, 16 September 2009 (EDT)

Thanks a million for Inas and Peter for making things clear to me. Now I understand! Thank you for your time and energy. However I can not have the same comments to Gorilla Jones who gave his sniffy and offensive comments every single time. (WT-en) Magicmushroom 09:29, 17 September 2009 (EDT)magicmushroom

The above gives a fair summary of current Wikivoyage policy and why under that policy your tours are excluded. You might want to look at discussions of that policy, Wikivoyage_talk:Activity_listings#Tours_policy.3F and comment there. I do not think the policy is likely to change, but that's the place to discuss it. (WT-en) Pashley 02:05, 18 September 2009 (EDT)

I'm one of the former contributors to wikivoyage. Unfortunately you deleted our tours, explaining that walking tours can not be put on the Wikivoyage and besides it our tours have no value added items like helicopters or segways or bikes. So briefly our tours do not meet the requirements!! (no matter we have thematical tours such as the Jewish Heritage and the Communist walking tour. The later is the only Communist city walk in Budapest which ends at a typical Communist building where travelers can see the relics of our childhood (e.g. passports, pioneer membership book, board games, etc- which are definitely not kitches as one of the administrator was accusing us.)

Please check the PRAGUE or BARCELONA or any other city's TO DO paragraph and kindly ask you to explain why the Free Prague general walking tour or the CITYWALKS in Prague is different from our tours concerning the value they add..or the LONDON Walking Tours...

I assume you read through my arguments at the Traveller's Pub page..

I am looking forward to hearing from you. Thank you very much in advance.

Magicmushroom/agnes

CALLING FOR HELP

This is really an unfair treatment to many of us!! Its like reading Orwells book the Animal Farm.. everybody is equal but some are more equal than others!! LONDON has 5 walking tours listed. General walks nothing special.I could return your question LtPowers:What exactly is the value added by going on this tour versus going by oneself and taking along a good travel guide? (WT-en) LtPowers 09:34, 12 September 2009 (EDT)" Prague still has at least 3 general walking tours and another 3 pub crawls.. Again, what is the value added going on these tours versus going by oneself? You can't clink glasses on your own..?? There are at least 5 walking tours in Paris! What makes the Classical Walks of Paris different from our Free Communist Walking Tour? Or the Newparis Walking Tour by Mr. Sandman? Or the New Berlin Walking Tours by Mr Sandman? Or what about the Alternative Berlin or the Insider Berlin Tour?? I really do not understand this!

Please explain me at your earliest convenience.

(WT-en) Magicmushroom 08:11, 25 September 2009 (EDT)Magicmushroom

Have a look at the very reasonable explanation given on your user talk page. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:27, 25 September 2009 (EDT)

Are you talking about the 1000 contribution per day which are difficult to follow, and that your are volunteers on this page and have limited time to check the articles? No I do not want those tours to be deleted as they should not be! I would like to be able to place my articles back. Do not ask me why should I , please! Because we are offering the same tours as the others! (WT-en) Magicmushroom 08:45, 25 September 2009 (EDT)MM

If the others are not compliant with our policies, they too will be removed when spotted. But you cannot use that as justification for adding these tours. Please explain what value-added service these tours offer without comparing them to other tours in other travel guides. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:20, 25 September 2009 (EDT)

Hello, Magicmushroom. Thanks for your email. Sertmann's response above is about what I would say, too. Yeah, we probably have a lot of things on other travel guides that are non-compliant. That's no reason to place non-compliant tours on the Budapest guide. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:14, 25 September 2009 (EDT)