Wikivoyage talk:Shopping listings

shopping malls

swept in from pub:

Ok, I know I am prejudiced. I hate shopping. But do we really need to include long lists of shopping malls in Wikivoyage articles? A detailed listing has just appeared in Kuala Lumpur and User:(WT-en) SnappyHip has been providing lots of shopping info for the Philippines. But do people really travel overseas just to go shopping? (WT-en) Shep 14:27, 2 February 2010 (EST)

Of course they do. Shopping at shopping malls, not so much, but shopping in general, absolutely. Also, whether the travel is overseas or not is, or should be, irrelevant; we're not the site just for "overseas travelers". Some information on local shopping options is absolutely useful for the traveler who finds himself in a particular destination and needing to go purchase something. Do shopping malls need detailed information? In general, no, but there are several exceptions, such as the Mall of America and the West Edmonton Mall. And even outside of those megamalls, a quick listing of address and web site is quite useful. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:03, 2 February 2010 (EST)

They definitely do travel for shopping as one of the reason (and there are regions where shopping is primary reason for many travelers; take Milan or London for wealthier Russians, for example). You are right that we shouldn't list every mall in every city--but if a mall is very conveninetly located for many travelers (I have several examples for Moscow in hand) or if it sells something difficult to find elsewhere in the city, or is otherwise of special usefulness for a traveler--we definitely better list it. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 19:52, 2 February 2010 (EST)

Malls are huge travel destinations. Though may offend good taste, the top attractions for out-of-state visitors to Illinois are: 1) An actual attraction, Chicago's Navy Pier, 2) a shopping mall, and 3) another shopping mall... --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 21:55, 2 February 2010 (EST)

Shopping is a certainly major activity when traveling and malls are therefore valid listings. Our Asian articles especially though are clogged up with bland lists of shopping malls with little or no useful information. Those could easily be deleted with no loss to the quality of our articles. As an aside, the mall listings in Kuala Lumpur are in the wrong article and should all be moved to their relevant district article. They also need addresses and directions to be of any use to us. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:24, 2 February 2010 (EST)

But common sense should be applied. An average suburban shopping mall would usually rate only the briefest of mentions, and yellowpages type listings of shopping malls should be avoided, as is our goal --(WT-en) inas 00:29, 3 February 2010 (EST)

Perhaps I meant to write "Do Wikivoyage readers really travel to go shopping?" I am convinced by all your arguments above about the popularity of shopping but still not convinced that it needs such prominence on Wikivoyage. The problem with trying to find an acceptable compromise is that it requires an awful lot of editing of all the bland lists. (WT-en) Shep 08:39, 3 February 2010 (EST)

If you find bland lists of shopping malls with no useful information about location, unique stores, contact details etc, then just burn them. I do no think anyone will object. On a broader note, I do not think we should pretend we know what Wikivoyage readers want to do or not do when traveling. As far as I understand it, this site should show a broad range of attractions, events, activities, shopping, hotels etc., without any judgements about what the readership may be oriented towards.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:14, 3 February 2010 (EST)

At least, we can start with defining a policy which will be enforced for future edits, and applied to each CotM and Star nomination, to start with.--(WT-en) DenisYurkin 09:36, 3 February 2010 (EST)

As far as I am concerned, yes I like to see the listings. Usually my travels are for business and in a location for six to eight weeks at a time. I like seeing what is available and have no problem withe them being listed. My next travel should be to Kuwait for a year, and I am trying to find out as much as I can before hand. Wikivoyage plays a big part in all of my travel research.(WT-en) TomNativenewYorker 09:40, 3 February 2010 (EST)

Long lists with no descriptions should be burned like we do with hotels & restaurants. However I think malls are worth listing for travelers because they offer such a wide variety of goods and especially in less-developed countries have a lot of stores offering local goods & restaurants. If I'm in a country such as Peru and needed a jacket or computer, my first choice would be to find a mall with (hopefully) a wide selection of clothing and shops rather than waste a day trying to browse through scattered, small stores across a city. When I was in Paris, it was easier to browse in malls to find French-language books and music CDs than stumble upon a bookstore or music store along a street. Near me, Orlando is a shopping mecca for tourists (domestic and foreign alike) and any time I go shopping there, the malls are crowded with tourists...in the summer, you can hear about 10 different languages spoken in the Apple store any given afternoon, see streams of Asians and Europeans pour out of tour buses at the entrances, and there's at least two currency exchange booths in the largest mall. Shopping malls are certainly noteworthy for tourists. (WT-en) AHeneen 15:57, 3 February 2010 (EST)

what to include in BUY section

swept from pub:

Minot has a new touting listing of a garden center. My first reaction was to delete it but before doing so would like some clarification of the policy. Clearly the BUY section is not just for souvenirs as we lisrt shopping centers and malls. So how do we decide what goes in? (WT-en) Shep 01:09, 15 April 2010 (EDT)

Shopping useful to the traveler I would say. Garden centres definitely are not and should be deleted.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:16, 15 April 2010 (EDT)

Yeah, shopping malls are legitimate travel destinations. Garden centers, not so much. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 01:46, 15 April 2010 (EDT)

I'd agree with one caveat - when a place is so small that there are literally only a handful of businesses it probably doesn't hurt to list any of them that might be remotely interesting to travelers in a there's-nothing-else-so-I'll-stop-there kind of way. Minot is large enough that this wouldn't apply. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:52, 15 April 2010 (EDT)

Project:Where_you_can_stick_it#Buy says bookstore, camping supplies, clothing shop, market (food purchase), ski rental, souvenirs, but I guess this is not ment to be exhaustive, and the principle must be that we list what we expect to be relevant to the traveler. But maybe we need our policy to state a bit more clearly how we decide what to include in the buy section?, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 02:02, 15 April 2010 (EDT)

But what kind of traveller will need to stop by a garden center to pick up a bag of mulch? I don't see a garden center ever being a legitimate entry. I don't know if the policy really needs reworked, although I have seen bookstore listings with questionable value. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 02:57, 15 April 2010 (EDT)

A garden center can never be interesting for a traveller because gardening requires a garden and you can't take it with you while you travel ;-) (WT-en) jan 03:20, 15 April 2010 (EDT)

Never travel without a rotary lawn mower I say.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 03:48, 15 April 2010 (EDT)

I often buy seeds and plants when travelling - but I think the idea behind the Buy section is to list the things particular to the destination - not the things you can find anywhere. So, list that African Violet nursery with the nice cafe out back, but not MegaGarden Warehouse in the suburbs. List the quaint bookstore great for browsing, but omit the Borders in the shopping mall. I don't think we are ever going to tie down this too much. Again, we are a human edited guide. If you don't think it is of interest to travellers, delete it, and take any discussion to the destination talk page. --(WT-en) inas 20:30, 19 April 2010 (EDT)

Strange but true, I also often go to garden centres as I like to buy seeds and take them home. Indeed I recall an intensive seed search on one occasion just prior to departing a city. I had left it too late and everywhere I went they did not have either sufficient seeds or the ones I wanted. I remember wishing I had planned things a little better. I don't think I would be expecting to find this sort of thing in WT articles though. But it really got me laughing. As to Burmesedays travelling with the lawn mower there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. People take bikes, surfboards and all sorts of stuff along with them. If using airline transport one of the manual push-pull models would probably be better these days as lately the airlines have been getting upset about things with petrol in them. Personally, I always try and buy my mulching requirements locally or make it up myself rather than dragging it back to Indonesia from a Carrefour in Paris. (WT-en) felix 04:34, 26 October 2010 (EDT)

Perhaps it depends on the country, but seeds are usually confiscated at airports; it's illegal to transport seeds and plants. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 23:23, 26 October 2010 (EDT)

It is Indonesia, it is up all up to good luck and charm. Also I always bravely declare them to the Indonesian Quarantine officers. If transiting another country on the way there forget about it, they will go in the bin. Also only the ones in the sealed packets.

For heavens sake though don't anyone try to carry seeds into australia or somewhere similar as the process is complex and if you for some reason forget to declare them you will be punished without mercy. I think a public stoning in the customs area car park may be in order and a serious wallet stripping is a certainty. (WT-en) felix 02:28, 27 October 2010 (EDT)

Phone format

As I did in Wikivoyage talk:Accommodation listings, I oppose the edit to the phone number format, but even more strongly in this case. This was the previous version:
+1 202 518-8205. This is the edited version: +1-202-518-8205. I never remember seeing the initial 1 hyphenated to the area code in the US, and I've been living here for all by 2 years and some summers of my 48+ years of life. What is the important reason for us to buck that? This is apart from my objection in Wikivoyage talk:Accommodation listings that any change in the phone number format would prompt the completely unnecessary editing of hundreds of articles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:19, 28 September 2013 (UTC)