Talk:Dalkey

Travel guide or encyclopaedia?

I tried to re-write the first paragraph to takes out the encyclopaedic information, especially with respect to the municipal administrative structure, and to make it more relevant to travellers. User:Grahamsands has restored the previous version. I don't want to edit war, but I think we are losing sight of what Wikivoyage is trying to do

My version of the first paragraph:

"Dalkey is an affluent suburb of Dublin, and a seaside resort southeast of the city. The town is picturesque and upmarket, with a couple of Norman castles. There are several scenic and historical walks and tours. Dalkey Hill offers views over Dublin city, Dublin Bay, and towards the Dublin and Wicklow Mountains."

User:Grahamsands version:

"Dalkey (pronounced daw-kee) is an affluent suburb of Dublin, on the coast 16 km southeast of city centre, with a population of 4608 in 2022. It was historically part of County Dublin, which has been divided, so Dalkey is now within Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County."

I had moved the pronunciation, population and municipal administration information to Understand. Ground Zero (talk) 17:16, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

No, I didn't restore / revert, I wrote anew because that version seemed bitty and didn't flow. I mentioned the admin in the lede in order to reconcile with the breadcrumb: Dalkey is a suburb of Dublin, yet for WV not part of that city but of a county that no longer exists. It seemed best to deal with all that in a single line at the outset then expand "Understand", which I do not believe in its present wording could be mistaken for Wikipedia. Grahamsands (talk) 17:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It sounded like the previous version to me, but I stand corrected and have struck out that comment. I don't think that travellers are most concerned about the administration. Taking out what there is to see there is what makes it not a travel guide to me. The current version only tells me that the place exists, and not why I would want to visit. There is no longer any travel information in the lead paragraph. Ground Zero (talk) 18:19, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

So how about we add a sentence to the lede: "Reasons you might visit include X and Y". My X & Y would be the eponymous island and the Med ambiance. Grahamsands (talk) 18:44, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to combine the two, focusing on why to visit:

"Dalkey is a picturesque and upmarket seaside resort and suburb of Dublin southeast of the city. The town has a couple of Norman castles, and several scenic and historical walks. Dalkey (pronounced daw-kee) was home to about 4600 residents in 2022, and sits on the coast 16 km southeast of city centre. It used to be part of County Dublin, and is now part of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County."

-Ground Zero (talk) 20:19, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

"Two Norman castles" isn't accurate, both are fortified late-medieval warehouses in Norman architectural style, and only one rates as a reason to visit.

Worth quoting an exact population figure where (as here) it's from Census.

Repetitious, saying it's a seaside resort and then it's on the coast, and that it's southeast of the city and 16 km southeast of city centre. Grahamsands (talk) 21:19, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The Census estimates the population on the night of 3 April 2022. It takes the actual count, and adds in an estimate of the number of non-respondents, because there are always some people who don't respond. So it isn't an exact count of the number of people who lived in the town 4 years, one month and seven days ago. The exact number may be of interest to statisticians. Why is it of interest to travellers? We should indicate the size of the town's population in general terms (am I going to a village? A big city? A medium-sized town?) The precise census estimate from one night 4 years and one month and seven days ago. is not something for a travel guide.

The wikipedia article for Dalkey says there are two Norman castles, and the Wikipedia articles for w:Dalkey Castle and w:Archbold's Castle refers to the building as "castles". The latter notes that Archbold's Castle 'was formerly a fortified warehouse'. I do not think is is incorrect to refer to Dalkey Castle and Archbold's Castle as 'castles', but we could say 'fortified buildings that are called "castles"'. The Norman buildings are far more a reason to visit than that the town was historically part of Dublin County.

I agree that 'on the coast' is redundant and can be left out, as can the first 'southeast of the city'. Ground Zero (talk) 22:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

"Dalkey is a picturesque and upmarket seaside resort and suburb of Dublin. The town has a couple of Norman fortified buildings that are called "castles", and several scenic and historical walks. Dalkey (pronounced daw-kee) was home to about 4600 residents in 2022, and sits 16 km southeast of city centre. It used to be part of County Dublin, and is now part of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County."

Ground Zero (talk) 22:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I like this version. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 22:40, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, "castle" is applied to such a variety of buildings that I shouldn't get pernickety about the term; the buildings' history is explained in "See" and the lede simply indicates reasons to visit. IMO only one of them rates mention there so I suggest "The town has a medieval castle . . . "; at Archbold's across the street you just see a wall. I'd add " . . . the island just offshore was a pilgrimage site and slave market."

"Population of 4608 in 2022" is precise, pithy and has done with the subject. Approximations and circumlocutions only prolong the tedium.

" . . . which was divided, so . . . " is all that needs adding to clarify why we still classify Dalkey as County Dublin. Grahamsands (talk) 08:41, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

"Population of 4608 in 2022" is not accurate, though. 4608 isn't precise, because it's an estimate. What is accurate is "Estimated population of 4608 as of the night of 3 April 2022". Fortunately, "about" is a short word. Shorter even than "circumlocution". "About 4600 in 2022" is far pithier. Ground Zero (talk) 11:11, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

First let’s check that your original point is resolved. It’s good practice for the lede of a WV page to indicate the area’s chief attractions. Here I skipped, thinking the page was short and the reader would quickly reach those, but since you objected, a sentence was added. Perhaps the present text does it?

It’s also policy to state the population as-at-20xx in the lede or Understand. You are jibbing at the style in which that is done? If so, raise it in the Pub, as this is not specific to Dalkey and applies to every page that states an exact figure. The Census is the most definitive population count that anyone can tally, and is far more precise than just about every other datum on the page, starting with the 16 km distance from central Dublin. Are we to equivocate over where that broad centre lies, and maunder on about the difference between road mileage and bee-line distance? We would deserve to have zero readers, a figure that any statistician would say is more correctly “less than 3”, so you will need a new moniker. Grahamsands (talk) 19:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe there is concensus not to use exact census statistics in articles, and I believe it violates the principle of having an informal, non-encyclopedic tone. But I cannot find such a policy, so I will raise it in the pub.

Can you show me where we have a policy to state the population as-at-20xx in the lede or Understand? I can't find that either.

Let's be clear that 4608 is not "far more precise" than about 4600. 4608 was an estimate based on a population count for the night of April 3, 2022. It is imprecise and misleading to claim that that was the population in 2022. It was an estimate of the population at a brief moment. It implies a false precision, and one that provides no value to travellers. Ground Zero (talk) 11:40, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It's indirectly conveyed by Wikivoyage:Tone, but it's not a bad idea to engrain it into policy. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 11:42, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I guess we have to if people are going to make a Federal case about it. It's obvious to me that travel guides are not places to claim to count inhabitants to the last person, though. Why would that be appropriate? Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:10, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

It is obvious for us, but seemingly not for everyone as evidenced per this comment. SHB2000 (t | c | m) 12:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I have started a pub discussion on this here: Wikivoyage:Travellers'_pub#Population_statistics. Ground Zero (talk) 12:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I have proposed a change to the style guide reflecting this discussion here. Ground Zero (talk) 13:36, 14 May 2024 (UTC)