(WT-en) Tara12 tmq

Hello, Tara12 tmq! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

To help get you started contributing, we've created a tips for new contributors page, full of helpful links about policies and guidelines and style, as well as some important information on copyleft and basic stuff like how to edit a page. If you need help, check out Project:Help, or post a message in the travellers' pub.

Regarding your listings, the best thing to read is Project:Welcome, business owners, followed by Project:Listings. I reverted it because it was missing key information, most importantly price ranges -- not every existing listing has them yet (it's an ongoing problem, and adding them has been slow), but we try to enforce it on new listings, and especially when one person clearly affiliated with a corporation is adding many listings. There's also no need to include the city and state in the address: the article itself provides that information, so just the local street address is good enough.

I don't think this is written down clearly enough, and it's only a small detail, but it's worth mentioning: the "directions" part of the listing is primarily meant for anything that's not obvious from the address. For listings inside U.S. cities, it's usually not necessary to give any sort of driving directions, since a traveller can figure that out from the street address alone -- but for places in New York, it's very helpful to give the nearest subway stop or two! Oftentimes that's more important to an out-of-town visitor, and making it easier for them to find your hotel is definitely a benefit for you.

We always appreciate business owners and representatives who can help Wikivoyage provide useful and up-to-date business listings. I hope you'll stay and contribute! -- (WT-en) D. Guillaime 19:48, 21 January 2010 (EST)

Hi, my answer is much the same. See the 4th para of Project:Welcome, business owners and in particular the ref to touting. Your contributions read as if they came straight from a tourist brochure; we should appreciate something a bit more straightforward. (WT-en) Shep 07:24, 22 January 2010 (EST)For example, instead of Set in the surroundings of the Inner Harbour, the Hotel Grand Pacific offers classical styling with European elegance. Enjoy strolling through the many boutiques, museums, galleries and cafes within walking distance of the hotel, try to write something like located in the Inner Harbour within walking distance of etc. No one is interested in classical styling with European elegance apart from ad copywriters.(WT-en) Shep 07:29, 22 January 2010 (EST)

Thank you both for your assistance and feedback. I will revise my previous postings according to your suggestions and try again. I welcome any future feedback you may have! (WT-en) Tara12 tmq 15:55, 22 January 2010 (EST)

Went though another round of reversions, while admittedly patrolers have different tolerance levels for commercial additions, when you are doing mass additions to a large number of articles, it would be greatly appreciated if you actually spend a little time putting your finger in the ground, and made useful additions rather than just trying to meet the bare minimum standard that keeps most patrollers from hitting the revert link.

For example, it would be nice if you were a little less preoccupied about what's close to the hotel - stick to the one landmark that is closest. Instead include some useful information about the actual hotel - how many rooms does it have, is there any pool? is there any amenities which are not standard at almost every mid-range hotel in the west? does the rooms have air-condition? showers or tubs? is there are private garden? breakfast buffet etc. This is an online guidebook, and listings should, in so far possible, be useful for making a choice of hotel with the guide printed out. Most hotels owners are so preoccupied with just squeezing in a link to their webiste, that they forget a good listing here could be enough in itself - though this is not an invitation to tout.

A round of applause for including price ranges though, good start! --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 15:43, 27 January 2010 (EST)

Links should always go to the hotel's own website; The Carlton's official website is [1] not the one you had given. Same goes for Milan. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 15:50, 27 January 2010 (EST)

Thank you for the feedback. I will be updating my prior postings to include additional information other than location. We represent over 700 hotels, providing marketing and business solutions to help increase their sales. This is why we link to our website and not theirs directly. I believe this is acceptable under the terms and conditions I read provided by Dguillaime in previous feedback. (WT-en) Tara12 tmq 21:47, 31 January 2010 (EST)

Unlikely to be. Read Project:External links. Direct (official) links to the service providers only please. --(WT-en) inas 21:56, 31 January 2010 (EST)

That is incorrect I am afraid. As Stefan says, any link must always be to the hotel's own website and there are no exceptions. This is made clear here. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:57, 31 January 2010 (EST)

For reasons made very clear above, please can you stop placing links to anything other than the a hotel's primary url. Once again, links to aggregators, marketing groups, booking services... etc.... etc.... are not permitted. After all the help and guidance you have been given in this discussion it is disappointing to see you both adding non-primary links, and even worse, edit-warring when your mistakes are corrected. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 23:52, 1 February 2010 (EST)

Thank you for your response Burmesedays. Let me take a moment to educate and clarify what Preferred Hotel Group is and what our intentions are. Preferred Hotel Group (PHG) is made up of “soft brand” hotels – meaning they are family or independently owned hotels that are not part of a large familiar chain such as Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton, etc. This means that their chain, or brand, is PHG. We serve as their official website as most of these hotels have less than 200 rooms and do not have the budget capabilities of having their own site (for example, the Grand Hotel Minneapolis or the Hotel Florida Lisbon). Some do have their own sites, but PHG is considered their primary website and source of information for potential guests. To further prove we are the official brand: if any of you are familiar with GDS (or global distribution system, used by all travel entities) you can see that all of our hotels are under PHG’s chain code, not their own individual code. I believe this is where the confusion lies with the External Links policy. We are not an aggregator or a booking service – we are THE first line of Internet communication for these small, but nevertheless important hotels. If we are to follow the policy of “the traveler comes first,” I believe providing them with information to smaller boutique hotels that may not have a web presence elsewhere is the fair thing to do. I hope this clears up the confusion with PHG and I look forward to working with you in the future on providing the best possible information on Wikivoyage.(WT-en) Tara12 tmq 13:00, 4 February 2010 (EST)

Let me educate you a bit on us then. While it's true many people use us for research, many people also choose to print the guides, and take them with them on their trip. On the printable version of our pages (available as a shortcut on your left), the URL are spelled out in full, so long complex urls are discouraged whenever possible. If a hotel in the chain has it's own short, clear, to the point url, that is the one that should be used, always, regardless of your internal marketing strategies, which is not something Wikivoyage neither should or does take into consideration, it's really non of our concern. Now, if the hotel does not have a short url, you may provide a link to ph.com, but it should be an exception, not the rule. Besides in the examples I've seen to far, I found the hotel's own websites, infinitely more informative. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 14:27, 4 February 2010 (EST)

Hmmm, I also find it interesting that "http://www.carltonhotelny.com" clearly states right at the front page, that this is the "Official site of the Carlton Hotel" which seems to contradict your previous statement. And to add to the confusion they don't bother linking to ph.com anywhere on the site. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 14:46, 4 February 2010 (EST)

I appreciate the tip on the lengthy URLs. Some hotels do not link back to our site but most do http://www.hawkscay.com/. The Carlton does have our logo on the bottom of their homepage. I appreciate your opinion on our site, but I will kindly point out it is one opinion. For hotels that cannot afford to build their own websites we are their only web presence. I am happy to answer any further polite and respectful questions. (WT-en) Tara12 tmq 15:05, 4 February 2010 (EST)

Having run my own travel-related businesses for more years than I care to remember, I am aware of both Preferred Hotels and GDS, yes. I do find the concept of a hotel not being able to afford its own website kind of amusing :), and that is surely not why hotels become part of the Preferred marketing group. But that's not really important to the issue here. When a hotel has its own website I do not think there is any chance of Wikivoyage accepting that the Preferred url is used here instead. What might be debatable is when there is no website other than yours. Even then, that will require an exception to be made to normal WT policy. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:40, 4 February 2010 (EST)

Our policy is clear on this, no secondary sources—only websites for the hotel in question, not booking agents or aggregators. There are plenty of hotels (off the beaten path—plenty in the FSU) without websites, and we simply list them with a phone number and any other relevant contact details.

Edit warring to reinstate your links is considered very poor wiki-etiquette, and may result in a blacklisting, which will not be beneficial to your business. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:11, 4 February 2010 (EST)

Can you please stop adding listings with your non-primary urls. The policy could not be clearer, as explained above.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:54, 22 February 2010 (EST)

Are you intent on getting the whole preferred.com url blacklisted? Ignoring what is explained here is doing you no favours at all, and wasting a lot of our time. I am now reverting all of your listings on sight.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:14, 22 February 2010 (EST)

Burmesedays - I will not post any further hotels to Wikivoyage for the time being. As a Wikivoyage expert, would you be willing to participate in a call with myself and my senior management to discuss the policies that are in question about external links? We want to ensure that we are all on the same page and that nobody’s time is being wasted. We greatly appreciate your assistance in this matter. (WT-en) Tara12 tmq 11:37, 26 February 2010 (EST)

Hi Tara. Whilst I have no problem talking to anyone on the phone, I do not think it would be appropriate in this case. Wikivoyage is a very open community, and all users should be able to see discussion about matters of policy. Therefore, I think this talk page would be the correct medium. By all means point your senior management here, and let's discuss further.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:04, 4 March 2010 (EST)