Talk:Javanese phrasebook
In written Romanized Javanese, a final -a must often by pronounced -o (open, as in British English long). So the word transcribed as saka (from) will actually be pronounced more like soko.
This is not usually a problem, as most proficient speakers understand the rules that govern this change. However, those who are unfamiliar with Javanese, will not know.
One idea might be to just write soko in the phrasebook, but that won't work as there are two -o sounds in Javanese - the open -o we met above, and the closed -o which is heard in British English go. It isn't correct to use the closed -o to sound the final -a. There would still be comprehension by the listener but it would sound strange.
An alternative might be to use a character such as -å, in fact already used by some writers of Javanese. This would give a clearer idea of when a written -a is sounded as open -o. The closed -o sound would continue to be represented by -o.
Any considerations from other users? Tawonmadu (talk) 09:42, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know Javanese, but in my pronunciation of English "long" uses almost the same vowel as "lawn" (the "aw" in "lawn" seems to be further back in my throat), while "go" also has a subtle "oo" sound at the end of the vowel (a commonality with English English, as many English folks I've known or heard speak use a "w" sound at the ends of vowels like "o" to a much greater extent). So in addition to figuring out how best to represent the sound you're describing, it may be necessary to describe the differences between the "o" sounds more clearly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:52, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- How about if we think about the 'o' sounds in the two words hot and hotel. The first is the 'open' sound that would be represented by ɔ in the International Phonetic Alphabet. The second is the 'closed' sound that IPA would represent as o. If the Javanese phrasebook says to use the word correctly transcribed as 'saka', then it needs to guide the reader to pronounce it 'sɔkɔ', not 'soko' or 'saka'. Writing it out in IPA doesn't really seem user friendly. To use IPA to get the sound of just one letter would be inconsistent, we would need to do it for all letters, and that adds complexity the reader doesn't need. Tawonmadu (talk) 15:33, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- My suggestion is to write it out as 'såkå', showing that the spelling is 'saka' but the sound is 'soko' (with the open o sound). Tawonmadu (talk) 15:36, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
- My "o" in "hot" is almost like "a" in "father" (though further back in the throat). If everyone understood IPA, that would solve all these problems, but so far, we've made the decision that requiring people to learn IPA to use our phrasebooks is too user-unfriendly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:12, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
- The varieties of English pronounciation are never going to make this easy. I'll make one reference to IPA in the intro to pronounciation, and try to give some clear examples. We'll see if there is strong objection. Can always undo if necessary. Tawonmadu (talk) 06:22, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
Banner edit
@Bennylin: Since the current banner is being used for the Indonesian phrasebook, I think we should switch to a new banner. Perhaps we can replace it with a banner of gamelan or wayang kulit, as you suggested in the Indonesian phrasebook talk page. Would you like to make the banner? The dog2 (talk) 02:43, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- Sure. Let's' brainstorm for several options. Bennylin (talk) 13:19, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- I like the musical instrument ones. If I had to pick, my preference would be for banner 4 or 5a. The dog2 (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- 5a is really nice.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:05, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- I find 5a to be the most eye-catching. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 21:09, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
- I concur about 5a. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 23:16, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, I will create the file from 5a. It's called the "Javanese naga" (w:id:Naga Jawa). A common motifs in Java, Indonesia. Bennylin (talk) 14:32, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Javanese phrasebook edit
- Swept in from the pub
Hey guys, we're discussing a new banner for the Javanese phrasebook. Please give your input at the talk page. The dog2 (talk) 16:55, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
New Caledonia and Suriname coloured in green edit
Is Javanese really spoken in these New Caledonia and Suriname? The dog2, by any chance do you know whether this is true or not? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:56, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- In terms of Suriname, yep! I don't know about New Caledonia. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:09, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Reading that makes sense for Suriname. However, I can't even find a logical reason for New Cal. My understanding is that French is the main language, and some of the indigenous Kanak's speak their native language among them. English is reasonably spoken, more particularly with the younger people, but have never heard of Javanese being spoken.
- However, IMO, both Suriname and New Cal shouldn't be coloured, given that a traveller won't likely be using it in those countries. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:14, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, given that it is spoken by a very small minority that tourists are not likely to encounter, they should not be coloured.
- "Javanese make up 14% of the population." That's by no means a very small minority, and much larger than the percentage of Yiddish-speakers in the U.S. today. I think it should be colored. However, I would agree with you in regard to New Caledonia:
- Yeah, given that it is spoken by a very small minority that tourists are not likely to encounter, they should not be coloured.
- "Indonesians who are from the Javanese ethnic group (1.4% of the total population...", although it does say further down "Other significant language communities among immigrant populations are those of Wallisian and Javanese language speakers." But 1.4% is not a large minority, whereas 14% is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:32, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- I'll try and make a new map specifically for the English Wikivoyage (so it does not give a different output for other WMF projects), but I need to get my text editor up and running first as it has been having problems recently.
- So, just to confirm, we're keeping Suriname, but leaving out New Cal? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:59, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- New Caledonia could have a much lighter color. If you happen to speak Javanese, you might find a few speakers there. Kind of like Yiddish in the U.S.... Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:58, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- Will keep that in mind when creating it SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:40, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- New Caledonia could have a much lighter color. If you happen to speak Javanese, you might find a few speakers there. Kind of like Yiddish in the U.S.... Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:58, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
- "Indonesians who are from the Javanese ethnic group (1.4% of the total population...", although it does say further down "Other significant language communities among immigrant populations are those of Wallisian and Javanese language speakers." But 1.4% is not a large minority, whereas 14% is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:32, 29 November 2021 (UTC)