User talk:Wrh2/Archive 2007

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Admin nominationEdit

I've nominated User:(WT-en) Cacahuate to become an admin; please comment on Project:administrator nominations when you have some time. --(WT-en) Evan 01:31, 6 January 2007 (EST)


sorry, i thought that the rule applied only for images. could you please re-format the text. i mentioned it in the edit history, so just compare it with the last version, pick out the text and write it in your own words. i'll have a shot at it myself, if it looks different enough from the original, i'll add it. Take care. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 13:38, 30 January 2007 (EST)

Re: JensAndMarian DiscussionEdit

No problem; I almost put it there myself, and probably would have except that the Copyleft talk page was already fairly long.

The real question is whether we've learned anything from this episode and whether anything needs to be done. It would be nice if the "discussion" (to use the polite word) were to continue under circumstances that prevent a recurrence. I'm not optimistic. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 14:44, 2 February 2007 (EST)

(WT-en) Joseph StalinEdit

Hi Ryan, this guy is making life hell for everyone by changing names. You're an administrator, can't you tell him to get lost and bump him off permanently.

(WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 09:28, 6 February 2007 (EST)

changes in Wikivoyage talk:External linksEdit

Apologies for my deletion in Project:External links, I didn't mean to do that.

BTW, after your unrevert, I also restored my comment in Project:External links#Guidebooks (Reference to), hopefully you don't mind (or let me know if you do). --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 22:42, 8 February 2007 (EST)

Deletion archivesEdit

Hey Ryan, thanks. I only left that in case someone objected with my reasoning, but perhaps I should have raised that question somewhere else like on the deletion policy page... thanks! (WT-en) - Cacahuate 20:06, 21 February 2007 (EST)


You're pictures are great, never noticed before, until I just came across the White Sands one... nice work! If you're ever bored we should meet up for coffee or something, I'm back in LA semi-permanently for now (WT-en) - Cacahuate 20:11, 22 February 2007 (EST)

Thanks! Some of the photos are better than others... I'm living in Culver City and working in El Segundo right now - weekdays are pretty much a lost cause due to work, but if you're in the area on a weekend let me know and you can regale a poor cubicle dweller with stories from your most recent trip. -- (WT-en) Ryan 20:20, 22 February 2007 (EST)

Myer centreEdit

Hahah, I wish it was only food and beverage theft! I was drugged TWICE with sodium oxybate AND gassed with hydrogen sulfide at this centre. Security failed to do a single thing about any of the three incidents!


Thanks I forgot about how dangerous the Myer Center was. Seriously, though, your reply was pretty funny. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 23:36, 24 February 2007 (EST)

What's funny about it?


Hi, thats alright, I just thought that being fact it might need to stay, although as you say I don't think the traveller needs to know political details, thanks for your input --(WT-en) MiddleEastern 08:50, 1 March 2007 (EST)


Hi, Do we warn main page spammers? Just seems like anon users haven't been being warned recently? --(WT-en) MiddleEastern 14:35, 5 March 2007 (EST)

The vast majority of the spam on the site comes from automated scripts, many of which are running on computers without the computer's owner knowing about the script, so there's generally no point in issuing a warning since there isn't a person who would read it. -- (WT-en) Ryan 14:45, 5 March 2007 (EST)
No problem --(WT-en) MiddleEastern 16:35, 5 March 2007 (EST)


Hi Ryan,

can you send me an email at I have some questions I'd like to ask you.



Greetings from the Midwest,

National Geo is televising a documentary about the Galapagos Islands and I know you've been there. How much did it cost you to go? -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 21:38, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

It's not a cheap place to go (see Galapagos#Get around), and you really get what you pay for. If you had tons of time you could fly there and visit some of the towns for probably $1000, but to see the best wildlife spots on a good boat over 10-14 days is gonna cost anywhere from $3000 - $6000+. The last two times I've gone I've chartered an entire boat and brought 16 friends, which kept costs down, but it was still around $2500 - $3500 per person plus airfare. -- (WT-en) Ryan (talk) 21:44, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

User pagesEdit

No problem with that revert. This one just caught my eye and irritated me because he does not contribute, only advertise. I'll vfd a photo from the same user in a moment Image:Romanya60.JPG

My apologies for stuffing up your talk page when I tried this reply earlier, connection to wikivoyage is on a go-slow and firefox did not want to play nicely. I think it is an indication that I now need to step away from the keyboard and call it a day --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 13:31, 20 March 2007 (EDT)


Thanks for the info about the isin template? I tried to find the answer but got lost. Oh well, again, thanks!!! (WT-en) Celticevergreen 18:07, 31 March 2007 (EDT)


Any idea what's with that guy? -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 20:22, 31 March 2007 (EDT)

See also Talk:Southwest (United States of America). -- (WT-en) Colin 20:58, 31 March 2007 (EDT)
In addition to the talk page for the Southwest, see the second comment under #University of Chicago Links and #Navajo Nation above. I had hoped that my evil plans to infiltrate Wikivoyage by making mediocre edits to articles about places that I haven't lived in for my entire life would go unnoticed, but apparently I've been discovered. -- (WT-en) Ryan (talk) 21:50, 31 March 2007 (EDT)
You're in good company; now he's started in on me, my Texas affiliations (huh? I've spent maybe 20 days in Texas in my life), my Ph.D., and you name it. Obviously a borderline personality at work; I suppose the best thing is just to do quiet reverts. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 22:27, 31 March 2007 (EDT)
I don't know why this guy feels the need to lash out, but while totally inappropriate the personal attacks are pretty easy to ignore. I can't tell if he's trolling of if there are other issues at play, but some of the edits regarding Southwestern history do seem helpful, so reverts may not always be needed. In any case, it's nice to have some company in the mischaracterize-the-Southwest conspiracy; I was getting lonely being the only one with a secret agenda! -- (WT-en) Ryan (talk) 22:36, 31 March 2007 (EDT)
Actually, I did incorporate his concerns about heat in southern New Mexico, biliously expressed though they may be. The fraction of the state in which summer heat is an Arizona-like hazard is fairly small (maybe 20%, and most of that territory is lightly traveled), but it's non-zero, so may as well apply the TTCF principle. The rest of the stuff I reverted is just Way Out There. Only a "Texan" calls the Rio Grande "the Rio" rather than "the river"? Then 90% of the population of New Mexico has been proclaimed a "Texan" -- and them's fightin' words. Seriously. It's a serious insult here. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 23:32, 31 March 2007 (EDT)

Spam filterEdit

What goes through your mind when you blacklist sites like tightpu%%^? -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 03:51, 1 April 2007 (EDT) happy I am that my name will forever be associated with such wonderful prose? Any chance I ever had of running for political office has most likely been ruined by my association with our spam filter. -- (WT-en) Ryan (talk) 03:55, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
Yup, your political career is ruined — "rubber glove (which Earthing doctors use in unspeakable ways to treat the male of the species)." -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 16:43, 1 April 2007 (EDT)

Wikivoyage ToCEdit

Ryan: once again through the ToC grind. If you have a few seconds, please share your impressions about [1] on [2]. --(WT-en) Evan 12:31, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

Lost Paddle RaftingEdit

Hi Ryan! I apologize for posting multiple listings for my web on wiki-travel. I was so excited to discover this site I guess I got carried away with posting it to what I believed to be relevant categories. If you could please remove my site www.lostpaddlerafting dot com from the blacklist I will repost it only in the city I am located. Or, can I place it under Colorado since we operate through-out the state? Please let me know where you think it might be most appropriate and I'll place it only once. Thanks! jwick p.s. I had to write out dot com as I am still black listed:)


What's the reason for the revert of my contribution to Kyoto? 22:31, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

He probably reverted your edits because you deleted most of the article. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 22:38, 3 May 2007 (EDT) that was of course NOT intended. It is some weird mechanism that i haven't figured out yet. I think this has happended before. Sorry. 22:43, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

No worries. It's happened to everyone at least once. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 22:47, 3 May 2007 (EDT)

spam blacklistEdit

Hi, I added the "generic terms" because that's what the spambot is using. I don't think they'll ever relate to wikivoyage, whereas the hostnames used (mostly university proxies) probably will. (WT-en) Jordanmills 15:10, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Looks like you guys just blocked the IP, so I reckon it's a non-issue now. (WT-en) Jordanmills 15:12, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
It was a bunch of IPs, so either they gave up voluntarily or the blacklist sent them away. -- (WT-en) Colin 15:15, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Mountain View (California)Edit

There are a lot of female travelers that would welcome information on nail salons etc. I know a number of professional woman that seldom gets time to pamper themselves while doing the 9 to 5 thing, so they always incorporate this into their holidays. Maybe information like that can go under the Cope section? --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 05:42, 15 May 2007 (EDT)


Hi there!

This is Ryan from Internet Brands. I've been in touch with Evan and Michele over the past several months, but I haven't had a chance to introduce myself to you and the other sysops, so I'm taking some time out now to address each of you. I'd love to solicit your opinion on something, so I'd very much appreciate it if you could email me directly at the following address:

In any case, keep up the good work, and I look forward to hearing from you! - (WT-en) Pastrami on Ry 17:43, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

Thanks Ryan! I appreciate the contact from Internet Brands, but in all honesty I'm a bit uncomfortable with utilizing private channels of communication for wiki-related discussions. If you'd like to you can contact me using the "email this user" link in the left-nav, but preferably it would be great if communication about wiki-related issues could be open to the entire Wikivoyage community, rather than just a chosen few. I realize that the nature of open discussions is a bit chaotic and scary, but despite its shortcomings it has proven to be remarkably productive when things are done as transparently as possible - the fact that Wikivoyage has come so far is an example of what is possible. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 02:12, 18 May 2007 (EDT)
Oh sure, I will definitely utilize the E-Mail this user button on the left. It isn't showing up on your default User Talk page, but I see it here, now that I'm editing (is that normal?). In any case, I completely understand the value of open discussions on the Wiki and so forth, and I will most certainly address or bring up any future issues in the open community channels. Thanks for responding! - (WT-en) Pastrami on Ry 19:02, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

Wait... I stand corrected... I DO see the "E-Mail this user" button now. How strange... - (WT-en) Pastrami on Ry 19:04, 31 May 2007 (EDT)

Wiki rulesEdit

Hello there hoss, Your history is evidence that you spend a considerable amount of time on your site. I think it can be a great resource, I want to understand the rules.

I wanted to beef up some san diego content and so I posted a link to a neighborhood guide from our visitors site and you nuked it.

I am not going to go through the trouble of redoing it nor am i looking to challenge you. I merely would like to understand where you find the line to be drawn. I understand you fight a constant battle daily and so you seem to have it nailed down.

However there is not many sites left on the web that does not have some affiliate with making money. I understand these pages have ads but I was not going to rewrite their whole guide and i figured a dot org would have held some grace with you.

Thanks for taking the time to explain and then go get some fresh air!

universal edit buttonEdit

interesting(WT-en) cacahuate talk 02:51, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

CotW unscheduled nominations are getting a bit thin!Edit

We could do with a few more suggestions for articles that could be future CotWs, so if you know of any please be sure to add them to the list! Thanks -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 08:04, 4 June 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for redirection help!Edit

(WT-en) LADave 01:16, 6 June 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for the heads upEdit

... on our friend. My instinct was pretty good I guess, but I played it straight anyways. (WT-en) OldPine 19:24, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

He seems to like you. It's a shame he isn't willing to contribute more constructively since I bet his writing would be the combination of witty and sarcastic that makes for interesting reading. I was explaining him to my roommate, and based on his ability to respond to suggestions in a completely unhelpful way the best analogy I could come up with was the evil genie that grants you three wishes that all backfire in some way. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 19:51, 27 June 2007 (EDT)
Ha! That's a fabulous bit of analysis! A fricken genie! Well that explains it! He does like me, doesn't he? I may have to revise my opinion that he's a mofo. Y'know, I sometimes think that my work here is pretty much tilting at windmills. I mean, yeah, I'm contributing, but if anything it's somehow karmic (hopefully)... there will be no real fame, no monetary remuneration, just some sort of satisfaction not understood by many. One could say it is nearly a waste of time. But wow, this guy really wastes his time (and ours). I suppose "whatever floats one's boat". Wikivoyage does it for some people in the most bizarro of ways. (WT-en) OldPine 21:49, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Inspired by my new Barnstar, I unpacked a huge number of links in St. Louis, did a lot of anonymous work on some secret places a certain friend shouldn't learn about, and generally kicked WT butt! Thanks ;) Speaking of butt, mines a little sore. Later. (WT-en) OldPine 17:50, 1 July 2007 (EDT)

The power of the barnstar is something, huh? I noticed the special friend cleanups, and they're much appreciated. I suspect we'll be seeing a lot more from him between now and when school starts in the Fall, so if you ever do change your mind about being an admin, the delete button is only a nomination away :) -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 18:00, 1 July 2007 (EDT)

Local spam blacklistEdit

Thanks for your timely reminder about not being too hasty in adding website addresses to the spam blacklist, which I think you were spurred to write by my doing just that with a persistent spammer on the Mandarmani article. Actually, in some cases, I think the contributors just assume that a guide is a natural place to add their company's website and are not necessarily spammers (per se). At least, at you say, we should inform them of the policy and give ample them the opportunity to stop, and resorting to using the blacklist should be a final resort only. Anyway, I appreciate the reminder, and I'll be more aware to use other methods first in the future. (WT-en) WindHorse 04:11, 2 July 2007 (EDT)

Not fairEdit

Hey! I wanted to delete Glendale! :( Regarding the challenge you gave our friend, how many points is he up to? -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 17:02, 3 July 2007 (EDT)

Project:Votes for undeletion :-P As to the Chicken challenge, it's an interesting place, and if he's bored and wants to write about small towns it's as good as any - population is less than 40 but it sees several thousand tourists a year. Besides, the story behind the name is classic Alaska. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 17:42, 3 July 2007 (EDT)

San LeandroEdit

You have destroyed a lot of my hard work. You have to be ashamed of yourself. =(

Isn't past your bedtime? -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 23:21, 9 July 2007 (EDT)
Everyone appreciates your contributions, but we've been trying in many ways to get your attention for a while now - see the comments on Talk:San Leandro, when you click on the "Edit" link for the "Eat" section of the San Leandro page, and on User talk: -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 23:27, 9 July 2007 (EDT)

Split pagesEdit

Ryan, you had some thoughts about the plan to tech:optionally split long guides into one page per section. Since I've got a new version of software on review: to do this, I'd love to get your feedback on the shared: tech page. --(WT-en) Evan 13:27, 10 July 2007 (EDT)

Uploading pictures problemEdit

Thanks for the clear to understand explanation of the links....

I have also been having a problem with d/l the pictures. I upload them, but the link I need to paste it to the picture, is not there....[[picture.jpg|discussion} This!!!

so I have nothing to copy to paste to the main page....The only way that I can get that, is by d/l again, immediately after the first time

Something seems to be wrong...and needs to be fixed somehow, because I was stopped twice today, from adding a picture to the article.

(WT-en) Flowergirl 23:16, 14 July 2007 (EDT)


Away for a week, so I won't be around to annoy newbies with cross-edits for a while :) (sometimes I just can't help myself). Keep up the good work. Love ya, man. (WT-en) OldPine 20:33, 20 July 2007 (EDT)

User:(WT-en) L'AquatiqueEdit

This was just a silly mistake on my part. For some reason I missed that this was in the user's userspace and I didn't get any hits for L'Aquatique, Idaho. Thanks for catching that! I'm afraid it's not possible to be on the opposite side of this argument ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 23:03, 24 July 2007 (EDT)


Hey, guy. I was going to change this to an "otheruses" for Madison, WI -- see the talk page there -- but thought I'd run it by you first. It happens to be your disambiguation. Not a big deal one way or the other. Verbeek is usually my litmus for these things, but haven't seen him around. (WT-en) OldPine 07:41, 2 August 2007 (EDT)

I tend to have the minority view in contentious "most famous" debates (eg. Talk:Saint Petersburg) so I'll defer to the judgment of others - I've only been to the cheese state once, so if you think the home of the Badgers should get the "Madison" article then I'd say go for it. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:22, 2 August 2007 (EDT)
Excuse me for jumping in, but to be fair, I think you were actually with the majority in that case, but since we were utterly unable to bridge the gap between those pro and con, we left it as is. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:41, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

RFC archivesEdit

Hi Ryan, since you were earlier leaning towards keeping the RFC archives, would you mind commenting on the current proposal being discussed here? I personally like the current motion, but wouldn't want to push it through without hearing from you first. Thanks! --(WT-en) Peter Talk 02:41, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

ip blocksEdit

I just unblocked an ip that you blocked since there was only 3 edits and nothing too hard to keep up with, but I'm a little tired and simulating drunk, so sorry I did that without us coming to some sort of conclusion at Project:User ban nominations yet. – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 04:19, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

I can't find the discussion at the moment, but the policy in the past has been that if something is obviously a bot and it spams more than once then it usually gets blocked. The reason we don't use blocks on users is that we prefer soft-security, but in the case of a bot trying to encourage better behavior is obviously pointless. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:11, 23 August 2007 (EDT)

Apartments in MadridEdit

Thank you for your explanation about my article´s removal. The thing is that as freelance, my fiscal physical addres is my personal one, were there´s no problem to receive renters in case. Even is the same street number, same main door, where two of my to-rent apartments are. I don´t have an office where clients must pick up the keys, as myself, as courtesy service, receive clients at their apartment. Things so, does this mean that if I include my fiscal address on my site, I can insert the article again? Sorry, and thanks again. I tried to do my best with the rules!

Admin nominationsEdit

You're quite correct. Will follow your advice. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage( Talk )( (WT-en) Travel ) • 05:55, 19 September 2007 (EDT)

Anonymous blocksEdit

Thanks for stepping in, but unfortunately, I don't think those blocks of the anonymous spammers are going to help much in and of themselves. Other wikis where I admin are having the same problem, namely, something somewhere that spams from an address, then automatically shifts addresses. They usually don't spam more than a few times from the same address before the whole thing goes dormant. The only antidote that I've ever found is the blacklist; thanks for doing that too, that has a chance of stemming the flood.

I'd really like to know what's in the mind of these cretins who do these attacks. They are targeted incredibly precisely against wikis. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 23:03, 8 October 2007 (EDT)

I think it's a typical spam attack - trigger a botnet to throw out thousands of links and hope that some of them stick, somewhere; I suspect that the ROI for these sorts of attacks is extraordinarily low, but since the cost to the perpetrators is zero it probably won't stop anytime soon. As to blocking IPs, I only block IPs that have made more than one edit - it doesn't seem like it hurts at all, and some of the edit histories show that the same IPs return after the one month block ends. Maybe it doesn't do much, but it's worth trying, falls in line with the Project:Script policy, and gives me a minor sense of accomplishment :) -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 23:10, 8 October 2007 (EDT)
I'm curious as to whether the spam links still reside in some history version of the page. That is, we can bring up and edit an old version of a page, so are those links still available to search engine spiders? -- (WT-en) OldPine 23:24, 8 October 2007 (EDT)
The history of the spam is available in article histories, but the robots.txt file specifically tells search engines not to include any of those old pages in search engines (Disallow /wiki/ is the magic line). It doesn't matter though - just like 99% of spam emails get blocked by the spam filters, spammers only care about the 1% of their links that don't get reverted. They indiscriminately spam wikis, message boards, blog comments, and anything else they can find, which is a huge PITA to deal with, but at least for now the price we pay for allowing anyone to contribute. Google is getting smarter about actually decreasing the ranking for sites it identifies as spam, so with any luck in a couple of years this sort of thing will hopefully be less prevalent. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 23:38, 8 October 2007 (EDT)
I just added an entry to the blacklist -- first time I've done that. Could you check to make sure I did it right? Thanks. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 00:36, 13 October 2007 (EDT)
Looks good. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:42, 13 October 2007 (EDT)

Vandalism policy?Edit

I don't know about you folks (I'm sending the same message to several), but I for one am getting sick and tired of the intentional vandalism that's going on here. I am trying to start a discussion on Project:Community policies as to whether something more forceful needs to be in place to deal with it. Historically, we have bent far over backwards to avoid punitive action against vandals and have simply gone in and cleaned up the messes they create. However, the frequency of vandalism is growing, and I am not convinced that we are doing Wikivoyage a service by tolerating it. This said, I'm not at all sure what the "right" response is.

I'd appreciate your participation in the discussion on that talk page. Let's see if we can come up with something appropriate. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 11:45, 19 October 2007 (EDT)

Protecting the main pageEdit

Could I request that you not use the expiration field when you protect the main page? I discovered after you protected the main page once using an automated expiration option, that it also removed the move protection when the protection expired. That's when the vandal was able to move the Main Page around.

I see that you have removed protection and kept the move protection, which is great. I only mention this just for future reference. Cheers. -- (WT-en) Sapphire(Talk) • 08:08, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

Your advice wantedEdit

Is this: User:(WT-en) SouthAfrica OK do you think? -- (WT-en) OldPine 16:28, 24 October 2007 (EDT)

My opinion is that user pages can be basically used for anything that's not vile, illegal, or too unscrupulous. Letting business owners use them for advertisement seems fine as long as it doesn't get out of control, and it gives us an "out" for those who claim their links should be allowed in articles since they are travel related. That said, there was a conversation a while back about questionable user pages, and others had very different opinions - I think the discussion was in the Pub if you're inclined to go searching :) -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 18:21, 24 October 2007 (EDT)
Thanks. My diminished memory of that pub discussion was probably what led me to think it was questionable. --(WT-en) OldPine 19:46, 24 October 2007 (EDT)

Proliferation of new usersEdit

Did you see the huge number of users created (by another recently-created user) just before your recent block? I smell a spam attack coming, but am not convinced we can do anything pre-emptive. Opinion? -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 11:31, 26 October 2007 (EDT)

I haven't ever actually seen the "created account for" thing before. Dunno what's going on there, whether someone is messing around, just testing, or what's going on... -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:25, 26 October 2007 (EDT)
I saw that a few times several months ago, and when I asked Evan what it meant he didn't seem to know. Strange... – (WT-en) cacahuate talk 02:55, 27 October 2007 (EDT)

Troll blocksEdit

Hey Ryan, I'll leave the block be for now, but isn't it against policy to ban users without first discussing? As far as I'm aware they weren't crossing any lines that we have drawn up for immediate bans. "Keeping up" with them couldn't be any more easy, and as a matter of fact, I was kind of enjoying the cat and mouse game ;) --(WT-en) Peter Talk 22:46, 7 November 2007 (EST)

And as you might have noticed, dynamic ips make the whole user ban thing kind of pointless--and it makes offenders feel gratified, because they feel like they are beating the response by getting around it. --(WT-en) Peter Talk 22:49, 7 November 2007 (EST)

stop deleting my stuff --(WT-en) Lone.guner 14:32, 2 February 2008 (EST) how dare u call me a troll --(WT-en) Lone.guner 14:41, 2 February 2008 (EST)

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