Talk:Go

Move to Go

In English, this game is almost always called "go". Many English speakers know the name "go" but not "weiqi". Any objections to moving the article? —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:12, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

No objection; I support the move. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:54, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

No objection from me. This is English Wikivoyage, so we should use the most common English name, not the Chinese name. The dog2 (talk) 04:49, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

I wondered about that, chose weiqi because "go" also has another meaning & a fairly important one for travel. WP's article is at w:Go (game); perhaps we should follow that usage? Pashley (talk) 06:45, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

We currently don't have a page at Go, so it doesn't seem to be a problem. We could add a hatnote in case of confusion. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:43, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Move done. Pashley (talk) 19:51, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

How much detail?

In my view, this article should generally avoid going into detail about game rules or history; those are not relevant to travel & there are links to WP and Sensei's Library which cover them better than we could.

For example, User:The dog2 recently added a moderately long paragraph on scoring systems. It is all correct, but I want to delete it as unnecessary. You could also make case for removing things I've added, like the whole Go#Rank_and_handicap section or the discussion of costs of high-end equipment toward the end of Go#Buy.

Clearly some background material is needed, but how much is too much? Pashley (talk) 04:01, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

I think we need to explain the basic rules and scoring systems in order for this guide to be useful for potential readers who have never played or watched a game. Even if all you plan to do is watch a tournament when travelling in China or Japan, you'd be completely lost if you don't know the gist of the rules. In fact, we explain the rules in most of our sports articles, as well as our chess and xiangqi articles. That said, going into detailed discussions about strategy is certainly beyond our scope. The dog2 (talk) 04:07, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

OK. I have moved a bunch of text from the lede to a new section Go#Rules and rewritten a bit. What do you think?

Should we add things like ko, seki, joseki & fuseki, "good shape", ... Pashley (talk) 05:17, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

It looks good. You're probably more familiar with the game than I am, but I will say that it can be useful to have some important terminology explained in the guide. I think we should limit it to the terms a casual spectator will need to know when listening to television or radio commentary, or when reading a newspaper column about a game. The dog2 (talk) 05:25, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Usable?

I think this could be bumped from outline to usable, but as the main writer so far, I do not want to change it myself. Would someone else like to, or does anyone have objections?

There are two main things I think it would need to get to guide. One is some Korean entries under both Destinations and Buy, & for that matter both sections could use more entries in other countries. I also think it should have a Learn section; there are lots of schools and summer camps that might be mentioned. Pashley (talk) 12:58, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

It also needs a banner. Anyone up for doing that? I'm pretty much a text-only guy.

There are many paintings, mostly in traditional Chinese style, that might suit the purpose, but I do not know if any have a useful licence. Pashley (talk) 07:46, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Baduk stadium

Korea plans Go stadium to open in 2023. Pashley (talk) 13:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Does anyone know about Korean baduk?

Swept in from the pub

Our article on the game of Go, called baduk in Korean, is getting fairly good, but the links it gives in the Destinations & Buy sections are all to Chinese or Japanese locations. It ought to have some for Korea since the game is popular there & some of the world's top players are Korean.

I do not know enough to add those. Volunteers? Pashley (talk) 04:24, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I wonder whether someone from the Korean Wikipedia, such as User:밝은소년, might be able to help with this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Should the user be pinged over there? Depending on user settings pings may or may not work across projects. –LPfi (talk) 08:07, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I will work on this in the near future. I know a few random places but I will research a bit to make some better suggestions. I can't promise to get it done for a few days though. (Thanks to Pashley for letting me know about it. I love paduk!) Wyote (talk) 16:05, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

This is still a problem. Go#Destinations has subsections for China & Japan, and Go#Buy could, but neither has Korean listings. As I see it, this is the only obstacle preventing promotion to Guide & an FTT nomination. Pashley (talk) 04:22, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

@Wyote: Pashley (talk) 04:24, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Learn

Can anyone expand this section?

A few years back, I saw an ad for a Sichuan trip that involved seeing pandas & being taught Go by pros. Does that still exist, or will it after COVID? Do other countries have similar tours?

Certainly some strong players move to Japan. w:Go Seigen was Chinese, w:Rin Kaiho Taiwanese & several of the top players in the past few decades have been Koreans living in Japan. Are there schools for lesser players?

Korea has schools for insei, candidates to attain pro rank, & there are interesting blog posts from westerners in those schools. I doubt these are relevant here, even though you'd need to travel to attend. You need to be at least 5d to get in & anyone at that level probably already knows more than we could cover. Do China or Japan have similar schools?

Pashley (talk) 01:35, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I have now expanded it considerably, but it could still use contributions. Pashley (talk) 05:01, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Online

I think this section should be deleted; there are far too many to list, even if we limit it to ones with an English language interface. Sensei's Library list dozens. Also, playing online has little to do with travel.

We already have:

There are at least half a dozen other YouTube channels, discussion groups on Facebook and Reddit, online servers for playing the game, Go-playing programs for most computers and smartphones, and many web sites. See Sensei's Library for links to many of these.

Should that be improved with links to specific sections of the Library, the one I give above for online play & perhaps others for programs, discussions & web sites? I'm inclined to think not since being a yellow pages is not a goal here. Pashley (talk) 03:30, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

deleted. Pashley (talk) 23:46, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I also added links in the intro for online servers and Go-playing programs. Pashley (talk) 05:21, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Destinations, Do, See, maybe Play?

We currently have a Destinations section which includes some places to play & links to others, plus a Do section which only says there are lots of places. I think we should merge these. Do is a standard header in destination articles, Destinations in travel topics. I want to ignore both standards & call the merged section Play. What do others think?

Some museums are currently listed under Destinations & they would not really fit in either Play or Do. Create a See section for them & maybe add things like whatever castle the castle games were played in? Pashley (talk) 06:41, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I think "Destinations" will be a better header. You can then have separate sub-sections, where you can find list Go musuems in one, and places where you can play in the other. The dog2 (talk) 01:11, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Other languages?

Are there pages in other languages that this should link to? Pashley (talk) 09:35, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Seki

I wrote this some time back, but have just removed it because it seems unnecessary in a travel guide. Preserving it here:

seki

A situation called seki may arise, in which whoever moves first in a particular area of the board loses the fight there. Barring blunders, both players will refrain from playing there and the stones will remain on the board to the end of the game.

In rare cases, this can create a situation where area scoring and territory scoring give different results. In territory scoring a seki counts nothing for either side since there are no territory or captured stones to count, but in area scoring each player counts his or her stones on the board, including those in the seki. If the two players have different numbers of stones in the seki then one player gains by this. In the example, white has ten more stones in the seki, so in a close game he or she might lose with territory scoring but win with area scoring.

Pashley (talk) 23:32, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Removed this too:

Under the more common sets of rules, suicidal moves are banned; a player may not play in a space that would leave his stones surrounded by the opponent's stones, unless it captures some of the opposing stones. However some suicidal moves are allowed in New Zealand or Taiwan rules.

Pashley (talk) 00:07, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Removing more, mostly stuff I'd written. Trying for tighter text and less material not relevant to travel.

Michael Redmond was the first Westerner (American) to reach the top (9 dan) rank in professional Go. His YouTube channel, Go TV, has many videos about the game. Redmond served as the English language commentator for a remarkable series of games which was televised live worldwide in 2016 with an estimated 80 million viewers. A computer program called AlphaGo beat one of the top human professionals four games out of five. This was the first completely unambiguous demonstration that Artificial Intelligence could play at that level, and came as a surprise to many. There is a documentary film, AlphaGo - The Movie about the program's development, culminating with this series of games.

The range of strengths is enormous. A 9-kyu player can give a beginner nine stones and win easily; the game will be a lesson, not a contest. However the 9k takes nine stones from a 1-dan amateur (shodan) and that will be a contest; the 9k might win and will rightly be quite pleased if he or she does. Most clubs and nearly all online servers will have players that give the shodan two or more stones, and any professional player could give an amateur shodan at least six stones. Beyond that, a good AI program running on powerful hardware will usually defeat a human pro in an even game.

Sensei's Library has links to many commented pro games.

Both Japan and South Korea have schools for insei, candidates to become professional players; most travellers cannot attend them since you need to already be a high dan amateur before they will admit you. However web search can turn up blogs by Westerners in those schools, and some make interesting reading.

Pashley (talk) 02:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Online store listing

I think this is inadmissible for a travel guide because it's not about travel and is literally about ordering from your own home (office, whatever) and having it come to you. Comments? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:00, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd say we should not list online stores. Only physical stores should be listed. The dog2 (talk) 23:55, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Fixed. Pashley (talk) 03:03, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

We do have:

Sensei's Library has lists of places to buy equipment worldwide. They include many online sellers.

I think that is all we need about online stores. Similarly, I have deleted links to places to play online but there is a link to SL's list; see #Online above. Pashley (talk) 04:23, 17 April 2022 (UTC)