Talk:Minority cultures of Japan

Article about Ainu culture

Swept in from the pub

I wonder which of these will be better. An article dedicated to Ainu culture, or a more generic article about minority cultures of Japan. The Ryukyuan people of Okinawa often consider themselves to be culturally distinct from other Japanese since they have their own languages, albeit ones that are related to Japanese, and once had their own independent kingdom. However, the Japanese government considers the Ryukyuans to be a subset of the dominant Yamato people (i.e. ethnic Japanese) and not a separate ethnic group. On the other hand, the Ainu are officially recognised as an ethnic minority by the Japanese government (and in fact are the only officially recognised ethnic minority in Japan), and the Ainu language is unrelated to Japanese. Historically the Ainu people lived in Russia too, but they are not recognised by the Russian government, and they are basically extinct as an ethnic group in Russia. But of course, an article about Ainu culture will theoretically allow us to also cover Ainu sites in Russia (if they still exist), while an article about minority cultures of Japan will not. The dog2 (talk) 20:59, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I'd say go ahead with a Ainu culture page. We have a page on Okinawa & I think anything we need to say about Ryukyu culture can be covered there.

Should we have an index page for all the indigenous culture articles? We have them at least for both Americas, Oz, the Maori, China, Taiwan, Russia & I'm not sure if there are others. Certainly one could be written for parts of India & perhaps more. Pashley (talk) 22:16, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I have no sense of how much travel content there is for either people, but the Ryukyuans have very little in common with the Ainu and are peripheral to Japan in the south vs. the north. There are other minority cultures in Japan, of course, notably including Korean-Japanese and Chinese-Japanese. I don't know where the "untouchable" w:Burakumin fit in, as they are differentiated by known or presumed caste, not ethnicity. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:34, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I have not been able to find any information on Ainu cultural sites in Russia. If anybody here knows Russian, maybe you could do a Google search in Russian to see if there is any information that is not published in English. In Japan, there appears to be a number of Ainu museums and cultural villages in Hokkaido, which you can find pretty easily with a Google search. I went to one of those Ainu cultural villages when I visited Hokkaido. And apparently, many Hokkaido place names were derived from Ainu even though the Ainu language is almost extinct. That said, there are language revival efforts, and a number of YouTube channels teaching Ainu (but in Japanese though). The dog2 (talk) 23:49, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

@Jpatokal, ChubbyWimbus, JRHorse: You guys seem to know Japan pretty well. Do you think there will be enough tourist attractions to fill an article about Ainu culture? The dog2 (talk) 23:52, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Actual Ainu culture is basically dead, so the museums and tourist villages are probably the best if not only places to really learn about them. As for cultural sites, there are old Ainu castle/fort sites, known as "Chashi", especially around Nemuro. I'm not aware of many others. I tried to research religious sites for the "Religion" section of our Japan guide back when I rewrote those sections but was not able to find a source that pinpointed any specific locations. That's why the Ainu are not given mention, even though they did have their own religion.

The suppression of Ryukyuan culture and forced Japanization during and after annexation combined with the decimation of the main island in WWII also killed Ryukyuan culture. Even in the museums in Okinawa, there is surprisingly little known about it. All of the places where you can learn about the culture repeat the same handful of facts with little depth. Ryukyuan cultural sites are more known and plentiful than the Ainu, though. They have castle sites (Gusuku), imperial tombs, Sefa Utaki, and Asumui. A lot of Okinawa's sites are part of its UNESCO World Heritage listing. The Ryukyuan Kingdom may be able to hold a small article. I'm not sure about the Ainu. The Emishi are the only other non-Japanese "native" culture that I'm aware of, but I don't think an article is warranted for them. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:55, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

OK, from the looks of it, it might be better to have a more generic Minority cultures of Japan article then, and if it gets too unwieldy, then we can split off the Ainu and the Ryukyuan cultures to separate articles. I have still not been able to find information Ainu cultural sites in Russia, but I don't rule out the possibility that there is information that is only available in Russian but not English. But unless we have someone here who can type in Russian and translate that information into English or Chinese for me, I won't be able to add any information in that regard. There are articles published in English about the Ainu by Russian media, but they give no information about Ainu sites in Russia; all the Ainu sites they mention are in Japan. The dog2 (talk) 15:21, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Again, if the title is "minority cultures of Japan," the Korean-Japanese and Chinese-Japanese cultures cannot be ignored. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:12, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ And I do not object to covering them either. Just like how I added a section about the Indians in Hong Kong to the Minority cultures of China article. The dog2 (talk) 19:35, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I have created the article and will be progressively working on it, but please feel free to improve it in the meantime. The dog2 (talk) 00:39, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Westerners probably should be included, right? And I again bring up the Burakumin. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:01, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I suppose, given the title. I know you didn't propose "Westerners" as the title, but since we do need to work out what the heading will be, I think separating Europe/Europeans from America/Americans works better than if we used "Westerners". "European" or "Western European" covers many countries, but they historically work okay together since their interactions were all part of Western expansion and exploration and it is a better heading than "Dutch", which has the most history, and "Other Europeans" or listing every country with single listings. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:00, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't mind using "Westerners" as a title. I understand this will lead to controversy with regards to whether Russians, Georgians and Armenians should be considered Westerners, but we could probably just use the term loosely. In Asia, it is very common to group Russian cuisine under the umbrella of "Western food", and Russia, Georgia and Armenia most certainly belong in the Western cultural sphere just like other European countries. The U.S., Canada, Australia and New Zealand are basically European diaspora countries, so they certainly fall under the "Western" umbrella too. The dog2 (talk) 15:12, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

My suggestion to separate the US from Europe was not because I don't consider the US to be Western. I was thinking more of grouping based on the particular histories they have with Japan, along with anticipating that the US will be able to hold its own heading. The current headings for non-natives, Chinese and Koreans, attempt to give some history that those countries/cultures have with Japan, especially relating to the current residents and attractions related to those cultures. While the US does have the black ships, American presence relates heavily to WWII and Okinawan occupation. European presence, although less prominent today, is much older and connected to colonialism, exploration, and expansion. It seems easier to write meaningful blurbs with this sort of grouping. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 16:04, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Why don't you write a draft on what you intended to cover, and we can have a look? The dog2 (talk) 16:51, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I wrote a draft for "Americans". While it can definitely be improved upon, I think it captures a distinctly different history than a combined section with all of the West would. For "Europeans", I imagine Dejima/Nagasaki, other former ports with Ijinkan, Dutch learning, Christianity/missionaries, Russo-Japanese War, etc. would be likely things to mention that are mostly connected to places you can travel. I'm not sure what one would say about modern Europeans in Japan. I'm not personally aware of anything impactful or noteworthy that they're doing. Most "minority cultures" in Japan are non-factors in modern times, especially in terms of travel destinations to experience them and with actual involvement of people belonging to that minority group rather than just Japanese people. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 07:18, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

There is now a mention of the "Dutch learning", which sort of requires at least a short section on them. Perhaps we should say some words also on current European expats – possible a section on Europe could mostly tell shortly about these two and say that the influences were and are marginal, if that's how it stands. For the expats, a few sentences useful for those Westerners contemplating working or studying in Japan could be warranted even if they aren't generally noteworthy. –LPfi (talk) 10:14, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Banner

@SHB2000: I just came across this image on Commons: [1]. Do you think it could be used to generate a banner for this article? The dog2 (talk) 17:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Maybe, but I'd have to see the banner. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:04, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Done – see File:Ainu treasure chest (cropped).jpg. I find the crop a bit awkward, though. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 21:08, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: What do you think? If you can find other images on Commons, we could perhaps find a better banner. The dog2 (talk) 21:26, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it's a nice and distinctive banner. I like it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:11, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Just implemented it on the main page. I think it looks good. The dog2 (talk) 22:17, 9 October 2023 (UTC)