Template talk:V line

New template: Template:V line

Swept in from the pub

So considering I need a template approval request for every single template used on main/project space, here's another one of them. And that is {{V line}}.

About the template

Functions:

• Basically just produces images of Victoria's V line train network. It doesn't cover coaches yet, but I'm still working on that. But the trains are complete.

How to use it:

• Just add the code: {{V line|line name}} and it will produce the images. So for example: {{V line|Warrnambool}} will produce . Not too hard, is it?
• The template {{Vline}} will also work.
• The size will be 70px by default, but it can be changed by changing |size=

Advantages:

• Easy to remember, and it takes seconds to realize how it works
• Takes about 10 seconds to implement it, unlike where you'd have to go to commons and then search the image, and then implement this, which takes about 2 minutes, meaning it's 6 times quicker.
• If commons is down, this template has it all.

Disadvantages:

• Does not work on {{routebox}}, but I'm trying to work around it, into a new template that accepts templates.
• You must type it in lowercase letters, but that is not a huge deal, and more a problem with the mw software.

Feedback and constructive criticism more than welcome. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:16, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

---

Discussion

• I think what should be seriously considered is whether the use of this template will make it harder for newcomers to contribute, and where the image adds value. I note that there is no example use in the documentation, nor a list of possible parameters. –LPfi (talk) 07:34, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

  This seems to be about Victoria (state). Just "Victoria" is ambiguous, the region should be linked in the template documentation to clarify. –LPfi (talk) 07:47, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

  Done fixed that. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:56, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

• Question: why does the V Line needs its own template, when we already have {{rint}} that can be customisable to different systems around the world, including specific lines? It'd be great if you can get this running within routeboxes, as I imagine that would constitute a significant chunk of its potential usage. I assume the other main usage would mainly be in the directions parameter of listings? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:25, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

This template is quite specifically for the images. The lines are there on rint, but this is just for anyone who wants the images. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:29, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah, okay. If there's already a rint for use in listings, I guess it's difficult for me to see a use for it outside of routeboxes then. Where in an article would you see it used? Though an answer to LPfi's first point, when you have the time, would probably cover mine as well.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:54, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

So to the answer to LPfi's first question on:

whether the use of this template will make it harder for newcomers to contribute

The answer to it is, not at all. The use of the template is completely optional, and I think a newcomer to the Wikimedia family will in actual fact, find it easier. For starters, people rarely start off with their home wiki on Commons, and most edit another project first, then go to commons. With this template, if someone wanted to modify the image, all they need to do is to is change the line name. Commons is really only found because of the welcome bot and yet it takes quite some time. I'll answer the second question in a bit, once I get some rest. Cheers, --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:15, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

• Because of Wiki Loves Photo (holder of the Guinness World Record for largest photo competition in history), every year, thousands of people start on Commons and then go to another project to add their images.
• Every template makes things harder for newcomers. Templates are always hard. Newcomers don't know what a template is, don't know what those {{ }} symbols mean, don't know what templates exist, and don't know how to edit them, or even move them to a different part of the page, without breaking things. The Wikivoyages have intentionally chosen to use as few templates as possible (and most of those conveniently hidden behind the listing editor) because templates are always difficult for newcomers. And it's not actually "optional" for these newcomers, if you've stuck that template in the middle of the text they want to change.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:32, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I would tend to disagree with all wikivoyages there. For that matter, the French Wikivoyage has templates even just to display hours and prices. Not sure about other wikivoyages though. But imo, a lot cleaner. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:13, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd like to echo TT's question: How do you imagine that this will get used? Is the purpose to show the color for the different lines, similar to how San Francisco#Muni has a sentence talking about "(Lines  J ,  K ,  L ,  M ,  N , and  T )"? Maybe you imagine a sentence that says "To get to Shepparton, take the V/Line's Shepparton train "? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:46, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

How many locations are served by more than three Vline routes? These kind of coloured markers can be useful in cities where there may be a choice of 6 subway/metro lines to take to a particular museum. I don't see the need if this is only going to be used to list one or two stations in the Get in section. I think that plain text would be easier to read than the images. AlasdairW (talk) 22:21, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure myself. I've never used a train outside of Melbourne, but I imagine something like Seymour would be served by Albury, Seymour itself and Shepparton. Might want to ask Vaticidalprophet or LivelyRatification. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:17, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I think that is the case. For example, Traralgon is served by trains that go to Traralgon and to Bairnsdale. --LivelyRatification (talk) 06:03, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh and not to forget the gold Ballarat. Served by Ararat, Ballarat and Maryborough. Did I forget something, yes the overland too. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 14:18, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

I cannot see that this needed, given that we have the rint template. One example of that is Shanghai#By_metro. Pashley (talk) 05:10, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

One point I'd like to make against this particular design of the template is the current formulation is ugly and difficult to read. If the choice were between that and plain text, I'd opt for the latter.

Just on the point user:WhatamIdoing made regarding templates making a wiki less accessible, it's not just newcomers who may find them difficult to use. Any template can be difficult if you're not used to it. The opening hours template on French Wikivoyage might just be badly designed, but it is horrible to use if you don't do so on a regular basis, and I wouldn't be surprised if it and similar templates were part of the reason why that wiki struggles to grow its editor base.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:33, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

I personally believe why the French Wikivoyage has so little editors is probably because a) the lack of speakers apart from Europe and Africa, which explains why those areas are well covered, b) the fact that about 30% of all bytes of text added in June and July were probably a copyvio and c) the English Wikivoyage has basically more info on it. For fr:Modèle:Horaire, it looks hard at first, but when you visualise it into {{horaire|day|day|hour|minute|hour|minute}}, it becomes a whole load easier. I also believe it's a similar problem with nl.voy, which shows most edits are from two problematic editors on en. (see this, leaving FredTC the only long term good user on en) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:57, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

There may be lots of reasons for fr's struggle to grow, but lack of available speakers isn't one of them. French has more than 270 million L1 + L2 speakers worldwide, and fewer than ten of those regularly edit Wikivoyage.

(To be fair, one of the reasons I find that template such a pain to use is out of the control of those who designed it: opening hours in France especially are a bloody mess, with lunch dividing the business day in two, different numbers of opening days per week depending on the time of year, fermeture annuelle for the whole of August and/or Jan+Feb, places being open on some public holidays but not others...)

But back to the topic at hand, I stand by the point that any template can be difficult before you become accustomed to it, though some are much easier to become accustomed to than others. Something like {{done}} is easy-peasy once you've seen it in action, whereas wikitables can take hours of focus to master.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:55, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Even less than ten. More like six, excluding the bot. With the lunch thing, is it only a thing in mainland France? Because in New Cal, the day is continuous. But getting back onto templates, for tables, there's a shortcut under the advanced section next to the syntax highlighter. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 14:28, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the point, albeit in a helpful way: I'm not asking for help with using tables, or with the French opening hours; I'm using them as examples of templates that are challenging to use, and thus may act as a barrier to new editors. Tracking down a shortcut via the advanced section of the syntax highlighter ("huh?") is not user-friendly. But, fortunately, tables don't come up much in a travel guide...

I don't think this railway template is particularly difficult to use, but it's more difficult for a newbie than plain wikitext, and there doesn't seem to be much advantage to using the template over plain text.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:07, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose, and I don't like saying that, nor do I mean to crack down on anything or anyone, but I justify this opinion with several arguments:
  1. As has been brought up by more people, this template overlaps with one that we already have and use site-wide, that being {{Rint}}. Since the goal of both would be the same or similar, VLine should be covered in RINT exclusively. Due to this, I will be making quite a few comparisons to RINT here.
     • I should say separately that the state of Victoria has nothing to justify it needing a stand-alone template for a public transport network. The region within scope of this template is simply too small (also refer to #5).
     • As a side note, when discussing this on my talk page, you did mention that the template's main purpose is to not have to bother with searching for the files on Commons. What I don't understand though, is why you would want to use these labels to begin with? The only reasonable use case I can think of is Routeboxes, and this pitch already crosses that usage out, as the two don't work together at present. Please do fill me in on this.
  2. It also directly breaks with the precedent that was formed when RINT was still under development, which I would argue applies to all kinds of ways in which we communicate about transport routes:
     • Uniformity. Wikivoyage is in some ways like a brand. We therefore should desire to give the user a standardised basis for articles and templates that they can rely upon. RINT has limitations, both through the way it works (VLine is quite similar), as well as through its reliance on {{RbE}}. These limitations are intentional and allow us to standardise the labels for the end user.
     • Independence, specifically from Commons. Files get deleted, renamed, et cetera all the time. If we want to truly support templates well, we need to not have to rely on Commons to deliver those. For standard images in articles it's acceptable and standard to use Commons, but file deletions cannot be easily monitored through templates. That together with the previous point makes it to where RINT works the way it does, printing HTML/CSS-based labels rather than printing images (yes, I know that there are still images in RINT, but they are all on the way out at some point).
  3. RINT isn't the easiest to wrap your head around, that's a fact, hence why so few people work on it. In essence though, VLine works as a RINT-lite of sorts, using the same functions and code elements to achieve its goal. I hate to be that guy, but you proved that yourself two weeks ago by reaching out to me for help on this template. I believe your listed disadvantage of "having to type in lower case" also refers to that discussion. The template works with upper case letters, but needs to have the codes formatted in lower case because of MediaWiki software's workings. It isn't a downside, it's merely a thing to keep in mind. The end user after all sees none of the template's source code, just the result it has to pump out.
  4. A common argument for which people disliked RINT when it was introduced back in April of 2018, and probably still to this day, is that the colours can be distracting, so that's why I made the labels smaller in December of that same year. Having a template like this, that needs to be printed larger than the standard line height for text in order to be legible. This in effect messes with text, and prints a large colourful box in the middle of said text, which distracts from the content that readers come to use.
  5. Cluttering of the Template-namespace. This is just one template for Victoria, but let's scale up and imagine such a template existed for every subregion of every country. What you have, is a list of templates so large, that no-one will bother seeking out which template they need, that they remain effectively unused. If this template had covered a considerably larger area, I might have agreed with its addition. There is a fair argument to be made for splitting up RINT into several continental sub-templates, after all. That isn't what we have here though, so I see no real reason for justifying this template's addition.

I can probably come up with more arguments to not support this template, but the above should be more than enough. Again, please fill me in on the cases in which you see this template being applied, because I have come up short of a reasonable use. Add to that that it adds nothing real that RINT doesn't offer, and I remain only sorry to say that there really are no reasons to use this template. SHB, if you want to be helpful with these kinds of templates, I think that the best of your time would be to help work on RINT, which will always need continuous maintenance. I'd be delighted to have you on board.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 16:58, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

• Agree with Wauteurz, there's nothing special about the V line, apparently. Every city's transportation has special symbols, colors and whatnot - but we introduced {{rint}} to keep the visuals unified and as non-intrusive as possible, across all WV. We can barely keep it together when combining maps, markers and RINT stuff as is. Simply, just no - no new special template for the stuff we already have in good shape, after significant work. Add your stuff {{rint}} and keep it simple (visually). -- andree.sk(talk) 10:07, 15 August 2021 (UTC)