Wikivoyage talk:Currency/Archive 2011-2013

'You can start a new discussion on the main talk page here: Wikivoyage talk:Currency.

The new rupee sign

India now has a symbol for the Indian rupee along the lines of $, and its usage seems to be increasing at quite a pace. All newspapers use it. Should we start replacing Rs ? (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage • ( Talk ) • ( (WT-en) Travel ) • 07:46, 7 December 2010 (EST)

It's been just about 2 and a half years since the post above, and the new symbol has really taken off in India. Most businesses are using it now. The India article can make reference that both symbols are used, but I think it's definitely time we began using ₹. The symbol (₹) has also been available in unicode for years. I'm proposing we modify the quick access template below the editing window with all the currencies, and also actively change mentions of the old "Rs". Wikipedia has done so rather successfully. (WT-en) JamesA ^>talk 05:39, 29 May 2012 (EDT)

I have already written about it in India's Buy page and have been using it all over the place. Do you know what the special page for the quick access template is? I can change it there. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 00:53, 30 May 2012 (EDT)

Thanks Ravikiran. The page is here. You can go ahead and change the "Rs" over if you think it is necessary. Also, if you do change it, change the Project:Currency page as it currently mentions "Rs" should be used for Indian rupees. (WT-en) JamesA ^>talk 04:12, 30 May 2012 (EDT)

I think this is done. Thanks for bringing this up! (WT-en) Ravikiran 22:13, 30 May 2012 (EDT)

Exchange Rate Bot

Swept in from the pub:

It would be great to have a box in the "buy" section of country articles (and regions, ie. Hong Kong, when appropriate) which could have exchange rates that are automatically updated (weekly). I frequently come across old exchange rates on articles and there are many country articles without an exchange rate listed. This would make it very helpful when looking at prices...is 5000 francs in French Polynesia expensive? For a meal yes...for a hotel room its dirt cheap by local standards! But I have to take a minute to calculate it, and I know where to go and how to do it, which many WT readers likely don't. The box could be simple with just the name of the currency & code listed at top and 3-5 exchange rates listed. Since this is the English WT, there should at least be US dollars (USD), Euros (EUR), & GB pounds (GBP) and possibly Canadian, Australian, & NZ dollars as well. The bot could be written based on the 3-letter currency code, so that the currencies listed could be changed to reduce redundancy (ie. 1 USD=1 USD on the US page) or reflect regional currencies which travelers may have or be familiar with (ie. South African rand in southern African, Russian rubles in Central Asia). Examples (would need a better format):

Australian Dollar (AUD)

Exchange rates, as of 16/11/2011:

1 AUD equals / 1 ___ equals

(US flag) 1.015 USD / 0.987 AUD

(EU flag) 0.751 EUR / 1.332 AUD

(UK flag) 0.644 GBP / 1.556 AUD

Tenge (KZT)

Exchange rates, as of 16/11/2011:

1 KZT equals / 1 ___ equals

(US flag) 0.007 USD / 148.200 KZT current

(EU flag) 0.005 EUR / 199.749 KZT current

(UK flag) 0.004 GBP / 233.585 KZT current

(Russian flag) 0.208 RUB / 4.812 KZT current

(Chinese flag) 0.043 CNY / 23.358 KZT current

Of course the only "big issue" is finding a website that has exchange rates and a terms of use that would allow us to display rates here. Will have to check a couple dozen such sites to find one compatible. Is WT considered commercial? The content from the US government is in the public domain, but rates are only published by the Treasury quarterly and by country (not currency), [1]. Any similar public domain sites for Pound & Euro exchange rates, at the very least? If this is unfeasible, could it be made a standard template that could be put on pages (although manually updated) with perhaps a quick link to the currency calculation (as in the second example for Kazakhstan tenge). (WT-en) AHeneen 06:27, 16 November 2011 (EST)

Actually, the big issue is programming and running the bot. =) We've had bots before on which we relied, but they stopped working. I think a single template would be best, as it would avoid having constant updates to every country page on the site. MediaWiki's parser functions should be able to handle the basic math, though we might have to work a bit on rounding (or borrow from Wikipedia). (WT-en) LtPowers 08:49, 16 November 2011 (EST)

Why don't we pull exchange rates we have out into a template anyway. At least then there is only one place to update them. I think we'll encounter other issues when doing this, not least of people wanting their own currency listed, and ending up with hundreds. --(WT-en) Inas 17:20, 16 November 2011 (EST)

We can always (and probably should) establish a list of 7+-2 major currencies that we allow to be listed against the local currency in question. Nobody from Suriname or Laos or Tajikstan should be surprised if we have an establish policy that doesn't include their currency. If they are the type to travel internationally, they are probably already quite familiar with the exchange rate of their currency versus at least one or two of the currencies we do allow...(WT-en) texugo 08:44, 17 November 2011 (EST)

We probably should think this through before we go any further. Picking 9 currencies for each destination? I'd say we limit ourselves to USD and EUR for now, and hope that one day we can pick out the users local currency. --(WT-en) Inas 17:58, 17 November 2011 (EST)

I don't think listing 7 +/- 2 currencies would be a good idea either. The idea I had was to have one template, which would include the US dollar, Euro, & pound, and have a couple additional lines ("currency 4=", "currency 5=") where 1-2 additional currencies could be added when appropriate because they are widely accepted or common in the region and which traveler would have or need to exchange. Examples would be the South African rand, which is commonly used in southern African countries, the Russian ruble in Central Asia, the Australian dollar in the South Pacific, the Swiss Franc in Western Europe, etc. This isn't simply to help travelers from those countries, but even for an American visiting southern Africa, you'll likely become familiar with using the rand and while shopping in Botswana, where many merchants will accept rand, it would be helpful to know the exchange rate between the two when a price is listed as 100 pula, but the shopkeeper says he'll accept 150 rand (the exchange rate is only 1.09 rand=1 pula)...much simpler than trying to convert each to dollars. Hopefully that example is clear. I don't have any programming knowledge, but basically the text of the template that the user would copy onto the page would look like this:

{{exchangebot

| Currency= Name of country's currency (AAA) (where AAA is the 3-letter currency symbol)

| Currency1=USD (use 3-letter currency symbol, USD should always be listed first except in countries using the US dollar)

| Currency1flag=Image:flag (small flag of country issuing currency 1)

| Currency2=EUR (use 3-letter currency symbol, USD should always be listed after the US dollar, and not listed in countries using the Euro)

| Currency2flag=Image:flag (small flag of country issuing currency 2)

| Currency3=GBP (use 3-letter currency symbol, GBP should always be listed after the Euro, and not listed in countries using the Pound)

| Currency3flag=Image:flag (small flag of country issuing currency 3)

| Currency4= (use 3-letter currency symbol, only list additional currency widely accepted in this country or major regional currency)

| Currency4flag=Image:flag (small flag of country issuing currency 4)

| Currency5= (use 3-letter currency symbol, only list additional currency widely accepted in this country or major regional currency)

| Currency5flag=Image:flag (small flag of country issuing currency 5)

}}

If this were a bot, then it would simply take the currency from the first line (the one for the country of the page it is on) and the other currencies and display the current exchange rate and the date it was last updated. If it was simply a template, then additional lines for each currency would be needed to list exchange rates & url to current rate (like in Tenge example above). Or a better idea might be to just keep things simple and just have the url to the current exchange rate, which users simply click on and go straight to the up-to-the-minute rate. While simple, it wouldn't be useful to travelers who download to use WT offline and might cause problems with mobile versions/apps of WT. The text for a template which includes the rates would look like:

{{exchangebox

| Currency= Tenge (KZT)

| Currency1=USD (use 3-letter currency symbol, USD should always be listed first except in countries using the US dollar)

| Currency1flag=Image:US_flag

| Rate_for_1_Currency1=148.200

| Rate_of 1_Currency=0.007

| Rate_url=http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert/?Amount=1&From=KZT&To=USD

And so forth

}}

The above would look like the tenge example in the original suggestion above. The second option with just the links:

{{exchangebox

| Currency= Tenge (KZT)

| Currency1=USD (use 3-letter currency symbol, USD should always be listed first except in countries using the US dollar)

| Currency1name=US dollar

| Currency1flag=Image:US_flag

| Rate_url=http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert/?Amount=1&From=KZT&To=USD

And so forth

}}

Which would look like:

Tenge (KZT)

Current exchange rates:

(US flag) US dollar

(EU flag) Euro

(UK flag) Pound

(Russian flag) Russian ruble

(Chinese flag) Chinese yuan

If the consensus is for a template and not a bot, then I like the example with just the links, even with its issues. (WT-en) AHeneen 21:20, 17 November 2011 (EST)

Can't see the point in adding multiple links to an exchange rate engine. Just clutter. It is pretty much the exact kind of extlink we've always discouraged, no information, useless offline or printed, etc. --(WT-en) Inas 22:18, 17 November 2011 (EST)

For anyone that is interested, WikiOverland, the encyclopedia of overland travel does real-time currency conversion for prices and units of measure using a custom plugin and rates data from the Open Source Exchange Rates. You can see a great example at Argentina - WikiOverland - just choose your preferred currency and unit of measure and watch it change. It also stores your choice in a cookie so you don't have to choose it again on subsequent pages. Let me know if you have any questions. -(WT-en) Dangrec 01:29, 1 December 2011 (EST)

That's just what I was hoping for! I was worried that all the available exchange rate sites on the internet were commercial and not compatible with WT guidelines. I don't know about using this in-text, as it would be a HUGE task getting this into every price in every page, but I think it would be great to have in a table (like I suggested above) on country pages and top-level pages of territories, dependencies, etc. which use a particular currency (ie. on Saint Helena page, since they use St.Helena pound, Hong Kong, New Caledonia, etc.). I don't know anything about programming, but it would be great if someone could work this into a currency box (as outlined above) which could also be printed (current to time page is printed) or saved for off-line use. (WT-en) AHeneen 10:59, 2 December 2011 (EST)

Is it really what you were looking for? Do you want all prices on a page to be displayed by default in the local currency, and you can change them all to another currency on request? In any event, if you really want that functionality, then we need the mediawiki plugin to do it, so it is a tech request. If we just want the template with a bot update behind it, we can do this without it. --(WT-en) Inas 22:47, 20 December 2011 (EST)

Inflation

It seems silly to have to keep updating every price for a country with high inflation, when the equivalent in USD or some other stable currency remains the same. I'm in Sierra Leone, which has by no means runaway inflation, and the prices on Wikivoyage are absurdly wrong. Even my 2-yr-old guide book has prices at about $1=3,000 leones, but it's now $1=4,300 leones, so I have to convert everything I read in the guide twice. Might it make more sense to make an decision on the country talk page to use USD when inflation will render our pricing guides wrong within a year? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:08, 19 December 2011 (EST)

Bump. FWIW, I've gone ahead and done this where it seemed to make sense. But should we add a note about this in this article? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:23, 6 July 2012 (EDT)

Agree. —(WT-en) Ravikiran 21:49, 6 July 2012 (EDT)

Me too.(WT-en) texugo 23:44, 6 July 2012 (EDT)

Colombian pesos

There are many countries around the world that use the name "dollar" and the symbol "$" for their currency. Our usual policy is that
Prices should be listed with the currency symbol that travellers will encounter, specifically the local formatting. The currency symbol should always be prefixed. Travellers should be able to assume that symbols used for multiple currencies (like $ or £) apply to the local currency. Do not use currency codes like "USD", "EUR", or "GBP" if the symbol is established.

• $100 in Detroit, not US$100, 100 USD or 100 dollars
• $100 in Vancouver, not CAD$100, 100 CAD or 100 dollars
• $100 in Wellington, not NZD$100, 100 NZD or 100 dollars
• $100 in Canberra, not AUD$100, 100 AUD or 100 dollars
  

and I propose no change in respect of this.

However, the currency of Colombia poses special dangers of inconsistency and confusion as exemplified in the Cartagena (Colombia) article.

Colombia is unusual in having an officially recognised currency symbol of "$" that (unlike Singapore, etc) is not actually used on their banknotes - where, instead, "pesos" is printed. Since prices in the tourist industry in Colombia are also often quoted in US$, I propose that we use "pesos" instead of either the $ symbol or COP for Colombia currency.

This is somewhat analogous to the "Baht or ฿" situation discussed above in the Thailand section but differs in that I propose using the plural "pesos" rather than "peso" since

1. the peso is so minute as to be almost never encountered in the singular
2. that is the word (in Spanish) that appears on Colombian Banknotes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombian_peso

Does anyone disagree with my proposal? -- Alice^✉ 06:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

In Colombia prices are accompanied by a $ symbol, and we should use that. --Peter ^Talk 07:15, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

We know that, Peter, but have you had a look here http://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Cartagena_%28Colombia%29&oldid=1995988#Sleep and seen how confusing it is for our casual editors and readers?

Can you see just on that one section of one city article these different forms: $ (when Colombian pesos is meant, just as you intend), $ (when US$ are actually meant), COP (both as a prefix and a suffix), Peso, peso, Pesos, pesos, CoP, C$ (but pesos are meant - not Canadian dollars), no currency specified at all, just "60,000", COP$, etc, etc? -- Alice^✉ 07:40, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Prices in the tourist industry in Colombia are not often quoted in US$. In the few instances that they are, that should be made clear by typing US$ instead of $. "Pesos" is neither used when speaking nor when writing in Colombia. The Cartagena article needs fixing up. --Peter ^Talk 08:58, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

What do people say when talking about their currency in Colombia then, Peter? (It seems a bit strange that they have a word printed on their bank notes that they never use...) -- Alice^✉ 09:09, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Unless you're sitting around having a discussion about exchange rates (not terribly common when traveling)... people just say the number in transactions. For all the proposing you're doing, have you been to Colombia? --Peter ^Talk 17:20, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I've never been anywhere in South America, Peter. I don't speak Spanish or Portuguese. That's why I'm asking these questions. I do have an interest in writing a travel guide that is useful and accurate - hence my proposal. I will assume that if people ever do have a conversation about exchange rates in Colombia, they do call the Columbian currency "pesos" until and unless you tell me differently, Peter. -- Alice^✉ 17:49, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, I've never been to Colombia either nor speak Spanish. However, I think we should leave the symbol alone and not use "pesos". I headed over to Flickr to search for pictures. "Colombia market" returned lots of pictures from the UK, so I searched for "Colombian market". Just looking at the first four pages of results, there were 4 photos with prices written out. Two included the "$" symbol: Bogota Carrefour supermarket, $1000,000 on the red poster on right in Quibdó, & juice menu in Bogota with "$" before all prices. One photo does not use a symbol or "pesos" and just reads 13.900. While not conclusive and someone who's been to Colombia needs to comment, these results are quite suggestive.

What people say in conversation is irrelevant to listing because (in just about every country) prices mentioned in conversation can take on several forms: leaving out mention of the currency unit, mentioning the currency unit, and using other names for the currency unit. For example, in the US, I can say "500", "500 dollars", or "500 bucks". But that information should be described in the "buy" section on the country's page not applied to every listing. If "$" is the official symbol for the currency, then it should be used on Colombia pages and "US$" used when USD are being referred to. Casual editors aren't expected to understand our Manual of Style and it's the job of regular editors to fix these errors made in good faith—not adjust our policy for one country to adjust to the casual editor. One US dollar is worth 1,816 COP [2], so someone using our guide would have to be quite mathematically-challenged (sorry to be so harsh) to confuse USD/COP prices. AHeneen (talk) 22:31, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

As Peter is an expert on Colombia, we should simply trust his opinion and refrain from pointless discussions that Frank=Alice is trying to provoke. When we have other people with their own experience of the country, the discussion can be resumed. --Alexander (talk) 22:39, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and fixed Cartagena (Colombia). It was/still is a nightmare as far as MoS is concerned. I mainly focused just on fixing the prices. All now use "$" and a period instead of comma to separate 1000s (since this is what's used on official Colombian tourism website for prices). I think I saw at least C$#, $C#, COP $#, COP #, $# pesos, # pesos, # COP, # Colombian pesos forms used and on top of that, half used a period, half used a comma, and some used nothing to separate 1000s. Other Colombian pages are similarly messed up. AHeneen (talk) 00:01, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Great work!

However, I don't see the need to depart from our standard style of using a comma to separate each group of a thousand for this inflation proof currency. -- Alice^✉ 00:18, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Since I cannot find any policy on using full stop vs. comma, and no discussion about that policy above, I've gone ahead and raised this issue at Wikivoyage_talk:Measurements#Decimal marks/Delimiting. AHeneen (talk) 02:17, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Malaysian ringgit

There are currently a variety of currency styles in use in our Malaysian articles, eg: RM34, 34 ringgit, RM 34, ringgit 34, MYR34, etc.

Since its official abbreviation is RM (Ringgit Malaysia in the local language), in 7 days I propose adding

"RM100 in Kuala Lumpur, not Ringgit 100, 100 RM, MYR 100 or RM 100 (with a space before the amount)"

to http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/$#Currency_symbols unless someone gives cogent reasons here why this would be inappropriate. -- Alice^✉ 23:57, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

sounds reasonable to me. --Inas (talk) 02:10, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and make the appropriate changes, then. -- Alice^✉ 20:37, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Add more currency symbols

I'd like to propose that we modify the quick access template below the editing window so that it displays all the current currency symbols.

We need to add at least the Philippines peso symbol: ₱, the Korean won: ₩ and the Israeli shekel: ₪ -- Alice^✉ 20:37, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The signs for the Armenian dram sign (֏), the Paraguayan guaraní (₲), & Kazakhstani tenge (₸) are missing from symbols. A full list of currency symbols can be found at w:Template:Currency signs. Having all of them below the edit box, preferably, or even as a separate section in the special characters (like "Latin", "IPA", "Symbols", etc would be very helpful. Having the name of the symbol displayed when the cursor is placed over the symbol would also be helpful. AHeneen (talk) 21:39, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I think a new currency section under Special characters is a necessity. I found the help page on MediaWiki here. Unfortunately, it is quite complex to modify the Edit toolbar and there is no easy solution. After messing around for awhile at User:JamesA/common.js, I couldn't get it working. May need someone more trained in the art of Javascript. JamesA ^>talk 16:14, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your heroic (if ultimately unsuccessful) edits, James!

I (think I) have noticed a recent change in the stuff below the edit box: I don't think 9 items <!--Cities and Other destinations lists are limited to 9 items. Please first discuss proposed changes.--> was there until recently was it?

That means that someone out there knows how to get this changed.

Perhaps you could ask someone in the pub? I'd do it myself, but every comment I make has scorn poured on it or is instantly reverted right now; understandable really if they really think I'm just Sooty with some Kraut's fingers stuck up my bum.

I've also noticed a bug. In the line, Wiki markup: {{}} | – — [] [[]] *[[]] — [[Category:]] #REDIRECT [[]] <includeonly></includeonly> <noinclude></noinclude> <nowiki> </nowiki>, the #REDIRECT [[]] part is obviously intended to insert the whole string (since [[]] just by itself occurs earlier in the same line) - but it's not! -- Alice^✉ 07:52, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

After weeks of attempts to get some help on the MediaWiki site, including here and here, no one has anything useful to say. We're either going to have to fix this ourselves or ask someone at WMF to assist. JamesA ^>talk 06:31, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for your futile efforts James and thanks for your persistence! -- Alice^✉ 08:27, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Admins can edit Mediawiki:Edittools to modify the edit tools. I caution against many more lines, though a few more currency symbols shouldn't be a problem. LtPowers (talk) 16:24, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Currency symbols have added. I've based additions off of w:Template:Currency signs and organized the symbols by resemblance to the Latin alphabet, then Cyrillic symbols, then other symbols. Symbols which can easily be typed with a keyboard (CHF, kr, mk) have been deleted. Two symbols have been recently approved for unicode and don't display properly (Armenian drahm & Turkish lira)...addressed in this discussion. I added them to the template in hopes that most browsers & OSs will be updated soon. Otherwise, I don't know how to insert an image into that template so that it will add an image to text when clicked (these images could then be easily replaced with a bot later). OK? No? AHeneen (talk) 19:58, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the symbols and bringing us up-to-date. I actually was aiming to add it to the Edit toolbar at the top of the edit window, rather than the bunch of tools below the "Save page" button. I personally never use this area, except for adding listings. I'd assume that most users would be the same, considering its quite out of the way. However, the edit toolbar is in clear view, and if there was a currencies tab, it would be clearly visible and heavily used. What we've done now though is a good compromise until someone is able to edit the toolbar. JamesA ^>talk 00:20, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Several of the symbols just look like a funny wildcard symbol to me and don't decode. I guess that's not a problem for any of you, but I'll bet it's a problem for some rather large percentage of our readership. The most prominent one that looks funny and doesn't decode is the Indian rupee sign. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:31, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

It's true that most users will notice the special characters above the edit box and not notice the edittools template below the edit box. However, IMO, it's easier to scroll down a little and click the symbol than click to open special characters, click the right section, and scroll to/click the right symbol...unless you're doing a large edit and leave the special characters box open. Just a matter of personal preference/convenience depending on who you ask.

By decode do you mean the square with the 4 letters/numbers in it (in which case your browser/operating system's font hasn't been updated with the latest unicode symbols), or that you simply can't tell the difference between the symbols (since you can tell it's the rupee symbol)? It would be hard to say how many users the former problem affects (however, the Armenian dram & Turkish lira symbols ar. Regarding the latter, I think it's hard to decipher some of the symbols. On the edittools talk page, I made the suggestion that the template is updated to allow names of the symbol to be displayed in a little box when the mouse is hovering over it. Also discussed is the issue of the Turkish lira & Armenian dram signs which were just approved for use (and added to unicode) in 2012. The discussion is found (and comments should be placed) at MediaWiki_talk:Edittools#Currency_symbols_that_don.27t_display_properly. AHeneen (talk) 02:02, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the square with 4 letters/numbers in it. I don't really see a very important reason to do anything about it, but it's offputting, and I'm sure I'm not the only person still using Windows XP. I'll look at the other thread, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:43, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Remove redundant currency symbols

Please would you remove the tempting ฿ symbol.

Currently on our Currency policy page, it states: "Some countries do have a commonly recognized symbol/abbreviation that, (after discussion), we have decided not to use:

• 100 baht in Bangkok (rather than ฿100)"

User:Seligne is now here on Wikivoyage and is an expert on things Thailand. Her position about using baht in preference to ฿ was stated quite clearly here. -- Alice^✉ 00:55, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Done JamesA ^>talk 01:07, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

That's fine. Looking at the page, it seems like "dong" is short enough to write rather than use the symbol. That's the 4th symbol from the left: ₫ . If the symbol is actually used, I don't see why it should be written, though. It is so devalued that prices quoted in dong are long enough: "1,300,000 dong" or "1,300,000₫". It's 4 characters shorter, for what that's worth. Keep or remove? —The preceding comment was added by AHeneen (talk • contribs)

I agree that the (rarely noticed by visitors to Vietnam) dong symbol of ₫ should be deleted in an analogous way to the baht symbol and in line with the advice currently on our Currency policy page stating: "If the currency name is short enough to be spelled out in full and/or lacks a commonly recognized symbol/abbreviation, it should come after the amount.

* 100 rubles in Tiraspol

* 100 dong in Hanoi" -- Alice^✉ 04:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Did I jump the gun on the rupee symbol ₹?

Last year, I edited this policy to include the use of ₹ , the newly introduced rupee symbol in our articles. I have also been changing it on Indian articles. But since then, I have learnt that adoption by browsers has not yet caught on. Should we revert this change? Which browser/version/device still has problems? — Ravikiran (talk) 04:29, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Firefox 19.0 in a Windows XP environment has that problem. Reversion would be considerate, but I would of course understand if it's too much of a pain to do. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:49, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm rather puzzled by you saying this. I did not have this problem using Firefox 18.02 under XPsp3 so I upgraded to the latest 19 and I still don't have this problem. Are you sure your display drivers are up-to-date? -- Alice^✉ 07:39, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not experiencing any problems with the display of anything but a few relatively new currency symbols. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:42, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Is this a problem in older browsers/OS running in India? If so it seems to be a problem, but if it's only old software in the West it seems less of a big deal. --Keithonearth (talk) 05:21, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Less of a big deal, yes. However, we don't want our India articles to be for Indians only. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:34, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I've also been actively converting Rs -> ₹. I would still recommend implementing ₹, as even if we decide to use a templated image (like suggested above and in use on Wikipedia), it can be implemented at a later point much more efficiently and quickly by a bot. JamesA ^>talk 05:43, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

I believe the error is not inherent to any particular browser version and operating system, but it depends upon a lot of fairly complex factors. I seem to be missing a lot of Asian characters, for instance, in addition to the rupee symbol. LtPowers (talk) 15:12, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

hi i know im not very experienced but that first sign at the top i can see clearly which means that if users of google chrome are on any page with that symbol are going to be alright Ilkeston1990 (talk) 11:57, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm new to this and am looking for a way to implement the Rupee symbol as discussed. I've found it in the MediaWiki link mentioned, but the alt20b9 didn't do anything for me and it's not in the symbols collection that I can see. Can it be added to that? If not, how can it be pulled from the MediaWiki tools?? Dave.mcc (talk) 18:13, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I'd say just use Rs. We do that for the Pakistan rupee, though we have LKR for Sri Lanka. The new symbol complicates editing, may not work with readers' browsers and, even if it does, may not be understood by non-Indian readers. I'd say it should be treated like 元 for the Chinese yuan, mentioned in the text of the national article (see China#Money) but not used in general. Pashley (talk) 15:20, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually we don't use "Rs.".

I don't want to re-hash the debate about PKR but the current advice for the Pakistan rupee is no full stop (that conforms with our general advice not to use full stops or terminal periods) and to use a non-breaking space but that would be a hugely retrograde move. ₹ will become increasingly used (the symbol was only adopted relatively recently) but I would prefer to use INR to avoid all the nonsense with HTML. I predict that there will be an increasing interaction between the various rupee using nations in the next few years and the least ambiguous for our readers (and easiest for our editors) is the ISO method. --118.93nzp (talk) 22:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

₹ symbol

Swept in from the pub

Anyone know how to make this on a mac (mountain lion)? --RegentsPark (talk) 19:28, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I no longer have a Mac to verify this, but have a look at these links:

• Apple Support Discussion - 2 queries: Indian Rupee font and direct typing of Indic fonts Easiest way is probably to activate the Unicode Hex keyboard layout (can't remember if this is something that needs to be done in the OS settings or in your browser's settings) and hold the Option/alt key while typing 20B9.
• YouTube-rupee symbol video In 10.7 Lion (but should probably be similar if not the same).

While less convenient and probably not what you're looking for, the rupee symbol can be found in the "special characters" at the top of the Mediawiki edit box and in the symbols below the edit box (third from right on the "currency" symbols line). AHeneen (talk) 19:57, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Mac don't have key for this symbol yet. --Saqib (talk) 20:00, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. The alt 20b9 works and is relatively straightforward. (I must be missing some setting because my special characters dosen't include a separate currency symbols line and I see no ₹ under "symbols".) --RegentsPark (talk) 20:23, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

"Currency" is right under "Wiki markup" and before "Info templates" in MediaWiki:Edittools. Sadly, five of the currency symbols, including Rupees, don't display for me. LtPowers (talk) 22:42, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Found it. Thanks and it ₹ works! --RegentsPark (talk) 22:55, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I was looking for the same "₹" --MyThailandOrg (talk) 14:42, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Francs CFA

I suggest CFA, placed after the amount and separated by a non-breaking space. Anyone disagree? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 12:00, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Done --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 23:31, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Removed now that we use the ISO codes of XAF or XOF, as appropriate, placed before the amount and not separated by any space. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 09:40, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Pakistani rupees?

Suggestions welcome, please. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 14:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Rs ? --Saqib (talk) 14:23, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Before or after the amount, and with or without a separating non-breaking space, please? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 14:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Before the amount and with space. --Saqib (talk) 14:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

You should know, Saqib! Anyone disagree before this becomes our policy? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 15:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Just to clarify, that's Rs 12,670 with no full stop, yes? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 19:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes Frank. --Saqib (talk) 19:44, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Done --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 23:31, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Growing like topsy

I'm a bit worried that this page will grow into a huge list and become rather unwieldy.

There are more than 100 different countries that don't really have a commonly recognised or well known symbol or abbreviation that is consistently used in the destination country and I don't think we should list them all on this page.

Is there scope for simplifying our policy somewhat (but preserving the existing exceptions, since I know many editors are loathe to re-visit articles related to those countries that already have a consistent use of different currency formats implemented)?

The simplification I'd propose is that Except for the countries that we have already specifically listed on the policy page, we should suffix currency amounts with the three letter ISO 4217 code for the currency in block capitals like this example:

• 100 AZN in Azerbaijan, not ман 100, AZN100 nor 100 Azerbaijani New Manat

I've prepared an example of how the policy page would then look if this change to policy were implemented in my user space. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 11:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

No objections at this stage. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 13:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I object. According to ISO 4217, proper usage in English puts the three-letter code before the amount, not after. LtPowers (talk) 13:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Not You are almost correct, Sir. (It's unfortunate that neither the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe nor the ISO standard itself is helpful with regard to either positioning or spacing of the three-letter codes).

However, according to the current version of Wikipedia, the European Union's Publication Office's rules for expressing monetary units in the English language, Irish language, Latvian language and Maltese language texts, the ISO 4217 code should be followed by a fixed space and the amount:

a sum of AZN 30

However, in an analogous way to the manner in which we have adopted the ISO standard for the display of Telephone Numbers, I suggest that we make the slight modification proposed above

1) to avoid any temptation to replace the exceptional symbols of $, £, €, etc with a 3 letter ISO code

2) to be more consistent with the way that many articles currently use a 3 letter ISO code and with the use of "CFA" in Central and West Africa

3) Since these 3 letter codes will predominantly be used in non-English speaking countries (we already have exceptions in my proposed draft for most of the currency symbols and abbreviations in English speaking countries) it might be more natural for the majority of local editors that may be editing these articles and also for native speakers of Bulgarian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Italian, Lithuanian, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovak, Slovene, Spanish and Swedish to have the order reversed with the amount followed by a space and the ISO 4217 code:

a sum of 30 AZN

--W. Frank^e-mail_talk 14:43, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't find any of those reasons particularly persuasive. The standard in English is before the amount, and we are an English wiki; we should follow English conventions. LtPowers (talk) 15:05, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it is more common in written English to have the 3 capital letters in front (especially in financial markets, although my suggestion happens to be in the same order as when you speak English and is probably more natural for non-native speakers like me if they don't ever read our policy page. You can see this if you look at our current articles related to countries that were once French, Spanish or Portuguese colonies).

However, in support of your objection, the old printed airline tickets typically used to have the 3 letter codes prefixed and I am still searching vainly on-line for the ANSI standard which I suspect also supports that positioning.

What about the space. Do you have a preference for spaced or unspaced? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 15:11, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

When I became active here, I was surprised that we did not follow ISO standards for currency, time, dates, etc. I think our policy should be to follow ISO standards full-stop, with no exceptions or modifications.Seligne (talk) 15:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

The Mitchell Library is closed right now in Glasgow (and the ISO standard is more than £100 a copy) so I can't double-check right now, Seligne, but I don't think it specifies the position for English language texts. Certainly the ISO process is usually very thorough in considering all factors but sometimes is unable to come to an authoritative conclusion on every point (largely for the same quasi-political reasons that our discussions here are often inconclusive). --92.26.121.33 15:52, 14 July 2013 (UTC) W. Frank^e-mail_talk 15:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Right, I've now had a chance to read both the English and French versions (each equally authoritative) of British Standard ISO 4217:2008 (as amended, and the current version at £196 a pop) and, as I previously suspected, it is completely and totally silent on the topics of either pre-fixing or suffixing or spacing. That means we're on our own with regard to our proposed house style. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 22:10, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

The OP states that there are over 100 countries without any sort commonly used symbol or abbreviation for their currency. Is that right? If so, then I suppose we should abandon our "write it the way it's written there" policy. But that doesn't sound right. --Peter ^Talk 06:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I actually wrote "There are more than 100 different countries that don't really have a commonly recognised or well known symbol or abbreviation that is consistently used in the destination country" (emphasis added and "countries" is used in the sense that we use it here on Wikivoyage rather than UN member - the Transdiestrian Republic prints and uses it's own banknotes, for example).

In many countries (the UK and US) for example), there are long-standing and almost universally observed conventions as to symbols/abbreviations, positioning and spacing relative to the currency amount - but, in world terms, these countries are still a (substantial) minority rather than the majority. Hugely important countries for a travel guide like India with the rupee (Rs sign: ₹; code: INR) and Thailand with the baht (Thai: บาท, sign: ฿; code: THB) do have symbols/abbreviations, but their use, positioning and spacing relative to the currency amount are extremely variable and inconsistent both in shops and marketplaces and in print.

My policy proposal specifically exempts countries that are already mentioned on the policy page (like India and Thailand) so no retro editing would be needed there.

It would give us an opportunity to develop consistent prose and listings in our more than one hundred articles where there is currently no consistent usage - mirroring the gross inconsistencies in shops, bazaars and newspapers in the country concerned.

The "Buy" section of each country article should, of course, continue to mention all the different symbols, abbreviations and formulations that may be locally encountered but our listings would have a chance of being (and remaining) consistent.

If we pretend to maintain a "write it the way it's written there" policy, we are effectively encouraging our own articles to mirror in-country confusion or having a policy page that will inevitably become huge and unwieldy as we pontificate on the currency symbol, abbreviation and position to be used in more than 210 different countries.

Lastly, I can not pretend to be the first person that has noticed the problems with our current policy; see Wikivoyage_talk:Currency#Scandinavia above. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 09:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Using three letter codes actually amounts to a large amount of extra text, which is relevant when printing say, a book-style guide to India. (They also look very formal.) I'd prefer we keep their use to a minimum. Having a long list of recommendations here, or just on country talk pages, seems like less of a concern to me. --Peter ^Talk 19:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Really?

Aren't you the editor that thinks that the English speaking world won't understand that "air-con" is an abbreviation for "air conditioning" or "air conditioned", "Wilton Cres" is an abbreviation for "Wilton Crescent" and "Eaton Sq" is an abbreviation for "Eaton Square"?

In print, there's not a huge saving in space between 100 AZN and ман 100 or even between 100 INR and Rs. 100 or 100 rupees (since many editors in our Indian articles struggle to find the "correct" new Indian currency symbol whether they're using a Mac or not). --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 21:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, it's been more than a week since this proposed simplification was listed at an RFC and, as far as I can see, there are only two objections. To the suffix position and on the grounds of space saving.

So, to resolve those two objections I propose the following modified proposal:

Revised Proposal [2]

"

Except for the countries that we have already specifically listed on the policy page, we should prefix currency amounts with the three letter ISO 4217 code for the currency in block capitals and no intervening space, like this example: AZN100 in Azerbaijan, not ман 100, 100 AZN nor 100 Azerbaijani New Manat

"

This modified proposal also has the advantage that newbies will not be puzzled by seeing or having to type a non-breaking space ( ), to avoid a line wrapping accidentally at the wrong point. This will save one character in print and several in the raw code and be the exact equivalent or shorter of such constructions as US$100 or 100 CFA.

The full revised proposal (with the two revised parts in a pink box) are to be seen here.

I have already canvassed LtPowers on his talk page to see if he has any preference for a space or no space, so I will implement this revised proposal as consensual unless someone comes up with new objections. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 22:19, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The prepended currency code without a space looks really bad in the serif font being used in those examples. It's better in the normal sans-serif font used in most of the site. But now that I see it in action, I fear that the space is necessary to properly delimit letters from numbers. Ones and zeros look too much like 'l's, 'I's, and 'O's. LtPowers (talk) 22:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

There are only 2 countries with three letter ISO 4217 currency codes, that we would be using, that end in an "O" for Oscar. I don't really see the problem with the ALL100 construction for one hundred Albanian lek since the "L" and "1" are sufficiently distinctive aren't they?

In the case of MRO123,450 (123,450 Mauritanian ouguiya) I don't see too much of a problem either and (since the unit of currency is very tiny at 293 Mauritanian ouguiya for one US dollar currently) I don't think we'd often see constructions like MRO0.60.

I do agree that a construction like NIO0.50 (half a Nicaraguan Cordoba oro) is a more likely sight since there are currently about 26 of those to the US dollar. However, even this construction might be considered less ambiguous than using the current C$0.50 which might be confused with our current recommendation for showing Canadian dollars in a multi-currency situation such as "...cambistas offer C$22.10 for C$1 in Managua..."

Of course even this tiny, borderline issue would be solved if we reverted to my original proposal... --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 22:50, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

For these two tiny, borderline cases, I'd suggest that editors would still be free to do what we always advise anyway for abbreviations if there is a risk of ambiguity: spell out "0.60 ouguiya" and "half a Nicaraguan Cordoba oro". If this is a pressing concern, then we can also specifically list these two currencies as specific exceptions that might prefer to use a MRO 0.60 type of construction in listings. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 23:57, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Concerns

I'm concerned about where this (and similar discussions) is leading. While I don't disagree that it's useful to have some guidance on currency symbols, spelling, etc, is it really that important to nag users about using the correct "$" or "US$" or "USD"? While such things might be important for star articles, for the average article it's far more important to encourage users to contribute content and follow the more important policies (standard section headings, limited extlinks, etc) than to learn about minutiae of currency or spelling policies. Am I wrong? Is there really some value to "correcting" currency symbols across a variety of articles? If we must specify an exhaustive policy on currency symbol formatting, can we specify that these are just guidelines meant to apply primarily to Wikivoyage's most developed articles? Anything else just seems to be an invitation to edit warring as there are clearly some individuals who care deeply about issues like this one, while my impression is that most users just want to see guides that are internally-consistent and understandable. -- Ryan • (talk) • 23:20, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

My proposal does not suggest any more (or less) "nagging" than our current policy. As far as consistency goes, it should help that not hinder it.

Personally I'd be delighted if we could also have a phrase included like "However, don't knock yourself out "correcting" USD27 to $27 - there is more important work to be done in plunging forward and writing an up-to-date and accurate free Travel Guide!" in an analogous fashion to the draft proposal I am preparing at User:W. Frank/Abbrev. However, I've learned from bitter and frustrating experience that I need to progress with baby steps. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 23:28, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I share Ryan's concerns. When there are questions about these types of issues, they should be easily resolved in a starnom discussion (where they do sometimes com up). If an issue in a starnom discussion has broader ramifications, than it can be brought up here. This seems like a solution in search of a problem, or perhaps mistaking something unimportant for a problem.

I will add one more concern: about the formal aesthetic of ISO codes not jiving with our informal style. Since we're playing the "aren't you the guy who" game, aren't you the guy who's been so upset about use of shouting-like capital letters for AM/PM? Are we going to shout currency codes from the rooftops? --Peter ^Talk 06:38, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

No.

You may be confusing me with Tony, although since you have (like I did earlier above) raised a non sequitur, I'd better be frank (no pun intended) and say that I would support what Alice said in that discussion.

More pertinently, many travellers are concerned about prices and exchange rates and would probably prefer for our guides to be both unambiguous and helpful in giving the three letter ISO code that is often used by banks and bureaux de change. If it looks too ugly or "formal" in a standard abbreviation of AZN100 in the article body text (as opposed to listings), then you can always choose to spell out 100 Azerbaijani New Manat in full in prose. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 23:11, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

It is an existing problem as can now be observed in Talk:Lausanne. There's no way to objectively decide how to note Swiss francs, and consistency throughout the articles is wanted. Also, it cannot be resolved in starnoms, as starnoms don't create policy. Starnoms (should) refer to this policy page to see how currencies should be written. And consistency is also wanted in non-star articles. Globe-trotter (talk) 23:11, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I think this just demonstrates that I think we're really going to have to decide this on a country-by-country basis, because we're trying to match what is on the ground, and there is no consistent rule. So, although I dislike the idea of a long list, I think we should start building one up. I think people are getting more used to seeing the three-letter currency symbols, and where we are engaging in currency discussions I think we can mandate them. --Inas (talk) 00:25, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I think that's broadly correct, Inas. We do need a resolution to this so as not to hold up the confirmation of Lausanne as a Star article. My current proposal for this policy page is here: User:W._Frank/$1.

If you are correct in anticipating a steady growth of a long list, I would suggest moving the "Exceptions to the the three-letter currency symbols" section to the bottom of the policy page like this draft:User:W._Frank/$2

That approach would have the advantage of providing clear interim guidance to editors so that currency notation is consistent within articles and across guides and making an easy skeleton for exceptions as they are agreed on a case by case basis on individual country discussion pages or this one. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 15:15, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, two months have elapsed without any objections to "moving the "Exceptions to the the three-letter currency symbols" section to the bottom of the policy page like this draft:User:W._Frank/$2", so I'll make that change shortly... --W. Frank^email_talk 21:00, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Inflation resource

A useful resource to assess hyperinflation rates and, consequently, whether all prices for a particular country should be expressed in USD in our guides is: http://www.cato.org/research/troubled-currencies-project --W. Frank^email_talk 15:27, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I think our rule is just to use the currency that the traveller pays in, isn't it? --Inas (talk) 05:19, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the currency the traveller is quoted in. I noticed travelling around Vic Falls that all the prices were in USD, but often credit card could only be charged in ZAR. Weird. --Inas (talk) 05:22, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Because the falls are on the border with Zambia and the economic basket case of Zimbabwe, it's a bit of an exception to an exception, I think. I'd consider using USD in Zimbabwe as a whole using our inflation rule (and it's also grabbed locally with both hands) and as for the ZMW (formerly ZMK - there's also a Malawian kwacha as well as the new Zambian version) - that's a judgement of Solomon that I'm deliberately putting off until I've done the rest of the African articles and things have settled down a bit after the re-valuation (I hope!) --W. Frank^email_talk 16:26, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I had to think for a moment to decode ZAR as South African Rand. I think these 3-letter abbreviations are often not user-friendly for people who aren't familiar with financial industry abbreviations. So my suggestion is that in the case of any abbreviation that is not obvious in meaning, the first instance of it should include the full name of the currency in parentheses. That is user-friendly. We can't expect all our readers to have wide knowledge of financial abbreviations any more than we can expect them to know every airport code. (OK, maybe they're a bit more intuitive than airport codes, but I hope you all get my point.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, although all you really need to point out is that they are the TLD (ISO code) + the currency name. So Australia, .au + d(ollar), or .za + r(and). The chances are if you are going to country you generally know the TLD. Of course, the exceptions, USA doesn't generally use TLDs, because they own the world, and play the world series. .uk is wrong, and has always been wrong. Blame JANET. And EUR isn't a country. Easy --Inas (talk) 09:36, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I think we constantly walk a tightrope between ambiguity and prolixity - not to mention the dangers of wv:nco. Nevertheless I agree that removing ambiguity should usually trump the latter two - at least in our prose, as opposed to listings.

When it comes to our style guides, I think there is still considerable scope for making our MoS guides clearer to understand and one principle I'd like to follow is putting the most widely applicable and general policy or advice first and then follow later down the page with exceptions and more esoteric cases.

I've added to my next proposal at clarifying this page this addition after your comments. Do you think it's unnecessarily prolix or belongs further down the page? --W. Frank^email_talk 16:26, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

It looks good. I'd rephrase it very slightly:

Like all abbreviations you may want to consider spelling out the first occurrence in full (with the notation to be used in the rest of the article following immediately afterwards in parentheses), if there is a substantial risk of ambiguity or ignorance. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:53, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Done --W. Frank^email_talk 19:49, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, if we need to state the obvious, may as well do it in the policy article. --Inas (talk) 22:57, 10 September 2013 (UTC)