Wikivoyage talk:Welcome, newcomers

See Project:Welcome message for the message used to welcome new users.

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{{Welcome}}

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encourage em to start with domestic region

I think that one of the first things we need to ask a newcomer is to verify an article for the countries, areas and cities he lives in / knows most of all. With the current state of our User retain ratio (which is pretty low), most contributions we have right now are from people who had a single (and pretty short) visit to some place, got much pieces of practical info, generalized them a bit (I saw that myself/heard about one case => it should be so usually so)--and never coming back to discuss/revise/argument/specify. This is where we need locals of that country: they rarely know what travellers to their country should be informed of (unless they're professionally in tourism industry)--but they can easily verify and fix what other people say about their country. Even before something like "verify" marks will be implemented on Wikivoyage, just reading few content pages from beginning to end is a good start.

This doesn't necessarily apply to US and UK (there's enough recurring users from that countries to discuss every piece of info), but I would definitely vote for that for other countries.

Personally I'm about 1.5 years with Wikivoyage contributing bits and pieces on countries I visit for a week or two, but only recently I red carefully Russia and Moscow, and it needs major revision in non-sightseeing stuff like Money, StaySafe etc--not to mention all the listings. I could started much earlier if someone suggest that in the beginning--let's start doing so for every newcomer?

What do you think? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:34, 25 November 2006 (EST)

Thank you for your cordial and helpful welcome

Archived from the Pub:

on my user talk page! I realise it was probably a bot, but nevertheless I wish to thank and congratulate you for taking the time and care to create it.

I shall now wizz off (as you suggested) to the pub to ask for assistance on changing the position of the ToC on pages. [Drop me a line if you ever think you'll be in Glasgow...](WT-en) W. Frank 08:38, 7 March 2007 (EST)

It wasn't a bot. Sapphire is (WT-en) Andrew H., who is very much a human, and you are really welcome here. This is the right place to ask questions, but about the position of the ToC on pages, right now the position is that users can't personalise, because we cache for performance reasns. Most people are unhappy about the amount of whitespace it consumes, but at some point in the past when it was changed so that the ToC came up on the right, outside the main body, it caused a major storm. Now the issue is being discussed in the talk page of Project:Table of contents location, but the discussion has been dormant for some time, and there have been no changes on them. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 08:51, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Thanks pal! You've saved me starting a redundant thread (I was very worried about the ugliness of pages and waste of trees caused by all that white space but I guess the predominant ethos here is an 'american' attitude to resources). (WT-en) W. Frank 09:07, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Congratulations (WT-en) Ravikiran on your recent wedding! May you both be blessed! (WT-en) W. Frank 09:11, 7 March 2007 (EST)

I'm a bot!? -- (WT-en) Sapphirebot 13:51, 1 March 2007.

Resistance is useless. You, too, will be assimilated. (WT-en) J-bot-okal 12:47, 8 March 2007 (EST)

If you are, then I'd like to report some bugs in your shiny deletion button algorithm. -- (WT-en) Colin 15:00, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Those have already been reported and solved, I think. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 15:10, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Thanks Frank! — (WT-en) Ravikiran 22:19, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Video

Archived from the Pub:

So I was browsing YouTube this evening and for some, unwieldy reason, I decided to search for "Wikivoyage". I stumbled across one video (I know there's a page somewhere on WT which lists media mentions), and got an idea...since new users have such a hard time figuring out the proper way of adding, what to add, etc. even with all the pages about this, should we make a video? How about an "Introduction to Wikivoyage" no more than 2 minutes long which just goes over the basics like how to edit, MoS, don't tout, goals and non-goals, etc? I know we've got a lot of things going on with the new routeboxes and making a video would take someone a bit of time, but would it be worth it? This is just a thought...I'm not intent that we do this, it's just a thought. (WT-en) AHeneen 20:05, 16 December 2008 (EST)

I think it would be a great idea. But I also think we should keep what we got. Just so people could have a visual/hear aid and it would get people revved on editing. Personally, I wouldn't use it because I find vid tutorials have wayyy too small screeen and I can't get anything so I just use word tutorials. But for others, other people seem to like it. (WT-en) edmontonenthusiast [ee] ^.T.A.L.K. 20:44, 16 December 2008 (EST).

I did not suggest getting rid of the pages...just make a short video to summarize those pages. (WT-en) AHeneen 20:56, 16 December 2008 (EST)

Bud, I am not accusing you, ok? I am not turning it on you. All Imma saying is that we should still have the normal pages along with a vid - I didn't accuse you. (WT-en) edmontonenthusiast [ee] ^.T.A.L.K. 21:52, 16 December 2008 (EST).

WV fixes needed

Something needs doing with "wts:Welcome, newcomers" at the bottom of the page. Also, this Talk page says "This template must be substituted." I don't know how to fix these. Nurg (talk) 23:20, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Better information for new users...

Swept in from the pub

I think it would be a good idea to create a tutorial for new users as WV can be a little confusing at first go's etc. —The preceding comment was added by ButlinsRedcoatJake (talk • contribs)

What you're looking for is Welcome and Tips for new contributors. Where you can stick it is also a useful page. AHeneen (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd come here from WP in October 2012, made quite a few of the common n00b mistakes (such as an attempt to create w:Ontario Highway 401 and some unnecessary template imports from WP), then started listing what I'd "learned" at the existing page Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians in November so that all these differences between WP and WV would be documented somewhere. A travel guide is less free-form than an encyclopaedia as most entries are destination cities and regions, with basically the same sections appearing in every article (get in, see/do, buy, eat/drink, sleep, go next...) Are there any mistakes I'd forgot to make which really should be on the list? :) K7L (talk) 19:20, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

We have had several mentions of a video tutorial, which would be great—if someone is willing to make one ;) --Peter ^Talk 20:54, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Going off on a tangent, I had tried to start an expedition to create guides to routes themselves, but (I was new & didn't understand the policies) I didn't start it properly with community consent in the Pub and in the end, consensus was that such pages won't be acceptable. You can view Wikivoyage:Routes Expedition (and its talk page) for more details. I started a sample/guide article to go with the proposal at [1] (it got deleted on WV). It did spark the Routebox navigation concept, though. I still think such guides can be useful for long trips by road. AHeneen (talk) 22:50, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

~Hi Is there any place i can ask question as new user, and i joined from Wikipedia to Wikivoyage but it is not same for Wikitravel, can any one Please create or merge me with Wikitravel and is WikiTravel allowing Advertisement ? --Somesh.kanti (talk) 13:09, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

You are here at Wikivoyage - this is not wikitravel - try http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Welcome,_Wikipedians and http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Tout for answers, and remember wikitravel is not the same as wikivoyage sats (talk) 08:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Merge Wikivoyage:Tips for new contributors into this article?

Would it make sense to combine all of our guidance for new editors into one easy-to-follow guide, rather than splitting it? --Nick ^talk 00:06, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I would say yes. --Saqib (talk) 00:29, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

WV:Tips for new contributors has had a merge tag on it since April, but while looking at how to merge that article into WV:Welcome I wasn't quite sure what the best approach would be. Most of the "tips" are geared towards contributors, so should they just be copied verbatim into WV:Welcome#Share your knowledge? Alternately, we could keep these pages separate, although if we do so I would suggest some copyediting be done to break WV:Tips for new contributors into multiple lists since an eighteen item list of tips is a bit overwhelming. Thoughts? -- Ryan • (talk) • 21:29, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Warning to Newbys

Here's a summary of my experience on Wikivoyage. I found Wikivoyage a few weeks ago and thought what a good idea it was. I spent some time in the sandbox and reading various guidelines encouraging me to pitch in, and not to worry about getting things wrong, and telling me about the friendly and helpful community. I then thought about what I could add that would be useful to others, taking care to follow the relevant policies. Since there were a couple of tours that I went on last year that I could thoroughly recommend (because they provided lots of interesting information that was otherwise unavailable) I added them under Carcassonne and [Albi].

I checked back later to see if my edits had registered OK. There were no messages saying thank you for your effort. No message of welcome to the community. Nothing. Not even my edits. It took me some concerted effort to figure out that they had been deleted ("reverted") by Saqib. No explanation. No suggestions. No encouragement. Nothing. So I put the edits back and ask why they had been "reverted". In response they were once again reverted by Saqib. No explanation was given other than a link to Listings#Tour_listings, the policy on Tour listings. This was a bit puzzling because my edits obviously did comply with the policy - 100% as far as I could see. Anyone who knew the two places listed and who looked at what the details of the tours involved would have seen this immediately. On talk, I therefore asked this question "Saqib, Could you please explain why you are reverting my edits, even though they comply with the stated policy, as you will have known if you had followed the link included". But Saqib was clearly too important and too busy to provide a response.

Instead, a response came from Ryan. No welcome. No offer of help. He said that there were two "issues". The first was that "guided tours are generally only considered appropriate when the destination cannot be visited without a guide.". This of course is not true. What the policy says is that Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveller could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed. (my emboldening). As I kept pointing out, my edits complied fully with the stated policy at Listings#Tour_listings, (since they do constitute a value-added activity and a traveller could certainly not fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, even with all available audioguides, guidebooks, and everything else available). Ryan's second "issue", was that "the tours are being added as advertising for a tour operator, which is considered touting and is strongly discouraged...". I looked at touting and found that my edits did not count as "touting" under the policy. I was then, and am now, completely mystified how anyone could read either edit as advertising or touting.

I was so annoyed that I asked how to complain. My assumption was that Saqib and Ryan must be just kids messing about and that a responsible adult would be able to put them right. But no. There is apparently no complaints mechanism, so if a group of kids fail to understand a policy or get some wacky unwarranted idea into their heads, or take a dislike to you, or just decide to back each other up irrespective of the facts, then there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Of course, neither Saqib nor Ryan responded to my key point - that my edits were in line with stated policies. Instead of addressing the points made, Ikan Kekek now joined in and said this

"In any case, it looks to me like you may be ignoring this fundamental part of the tour policy Tours can be listed on Wikivoyage as long as they constitute a value-added activity. If a traveller could fulfill the substance of the tour on their own, the tour should not be listed.

The idea of quoting back to me the fundamental part of the policy that I had myself relied on and emboldened was little short of malign genius. Ikan Kekek then added

"That means, if individual travellers can see these Cathar-related sights without hiring you [sic], you [sic] don't get to list your [sic] tours or your [sic] company. As it further states "In practice this policy disallows listing most[...]guided tours since the substance of such tours can generally be fulfilled by an independent traveller[.]".

I don't need to belabor this, but Ikan Kekek has gone to considerable lengths to ignore the "value added" criterion and the key fact that the substance of these tours cannot be fulfilled by an independent traveller - the whole point of the policy. He is now firmly convinced that I own a tour company. I find it difficult to believe that these are genuine errors.

Normally, if three out of three separate people suggest that I'm in the wrong, then I tend to suspect that they are right. But I have looked pretty carefully at this over the last few days, and there really is no question about it. I don't believe that Saqib, Ryan or Ikan Kekek have understood the policy (which is simple enough), or visited the places concerned, or even bothered to consider what might constitute value added in this case. I might have thought this was just wilful ignorance, except that all three have all gone out of their way to ignore or misconstrue every point I have made, and have then invented a pretty zany excuse to justify their mistake - my "obvious anger" proves that they are right!

So Saqib, Ryan and Ikan Kekek, I have no idea how your minds are working or why you you might want to behave like this. Frankly, I find your behaviour baffling. I'm sure you'll be delighted to learn that I will not be troubling you or Wikivoyage ever again with eccentric ideas about basic courtesy, listing attractions, adding value, complying with policy, or with my "obvious anger" or indeed with anything else.

ErnieNode (talk) 17:31, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

• Adding tour company advertisement is a no-no around Wikivoyage, period. This kind of page editing is textbook touting, period. The admins' actions are the everyday norm. There's nothing wrong, or even polemic, with their procedure. These "ideas" about basic courtesy, listing attractions, adding value, complying with policy, are not eccentric at all, they're this website's standard operating procedure, which will not be violated just because someone wants to list his business, and advertise, and get away with it. Not gonna happen. Ibaman (talk) 18:21, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

We might want to make it clearer though, that a tour may only be added if you can't get there without it or if they are required by law (e.g. North Korea or the Chernobyl exclusion zone). Simply having someone tell you stuff during a tour doesn't constitute value added according to our policy. I would like to add Roma locuta, causa finita, but I won't. Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:25, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

We also allow tour listings if they are very difficult for individual travellers to do on their own, such as river boat cruises (hard unless you have your own boat), helicopter tours (hard unless you have your own helicopter). Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:32, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Modify standard welcome message to include a note where to ask questions

Swept in from the pub

When I post the welcome template I have sometimes added by hand that the user in question may use their talk page or contact me with any questions they have, do you think we should include this in the standard boilerplate text? Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:02, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

@Hobbitschuster: Or alternately create a second template like {{Welcometalk}} that has an explicit to post to your talk? Or maybe {{Welcomementor}} if you are offering to be a kind of one-on-one helper? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:23, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

There used to be a generally agreed upon rule/guideline to keep this site light on wikimedia templates. I am not sure whether that has changed. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:21, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

The Wikivoyage:Mediawiki templates restrictions were intended to keep mainspace destination pages to a consistent format. It would be unfortunate to extend this bit of inflexibility to userspace. K7L (talk) 16:33, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

That was one intention. I think another intention was to ease site maintenance and usability for newbies. Powers ^(talk) 21:09, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

What do you recommend telling new users whom try to add external links to non significant travel websites?

Swept in from the pub

At the Hebrew Wikivoyage, once in a while we'll get a new editor, whom usually would be an expat that is trying to promote their own non significant travel website as THE place Hebrew speakers should go to in order to get more information about a specific foreign country/city. In some instances these people would first add some actual content to the article and afterward would try adding their link, and in other instances they will only add the external link.

Self promotion of non-significant travel websites has never been welcomed at Hebvoy (usually those links would be removed sooner or later)... nevertheless, since we are always looking for new active editors, I feel especially bad telling the new editors whom actually took the time to add good new content that their link can not be included on the site.

What do you recommend doing in order to encourage such editors to contribute more good content, yet understand that only the most significant relevant travel websites are included in the external links section? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 15:20, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

You allow "External Links" sections in hebvoy? That's the difficulty you're dealing with. Maybe you'll conclude it's too much trouble to police 3rd-party links and will impose en.voy's external links policy. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:27, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, you may of course decide on your own policies, but I think not having an external link section is a wise idea. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:52, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Reverting people does discourage contributions, so I can see your dilemma. You might consider waiting a week before removing it. That might give you a better idea about whether the person might turn into a frequent contributor. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:39, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

You can also add a nice note on their talk page welcoming them to the project, thanking them for contributing, and explaining why you reverted their work and crushed their hopes and dreams. ;-) Ground Zero (talk) 20:15, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

I just did that, as I can't simply ignore their question (the user actually asked why his addition of his link didn't show up). Although I know this would probably end further contributions from that user, it was necessary.

As Hebvoy gains more readers/visibility I suspect this would be a more serious issue as there might be a lot more users whom might try and add a lot of useless external links for the purpose of financial gain. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 20:45, 12 January 2017 (UTC)