Talk:Gaspésie National Park

Name

Is there a reason why this is under the French name instead of the English one? We don't use French names for anything else in Quebec (or France). (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:21, 22 February 2009 (EST)

Gaspesie National Park redirects here. It should not, since the park is a Quebec provincial park, not a national park, Policy is to use the commonest English name. I'd say the correct English name would be Gaspe Provincial Park. (WT-en) Pashley 11:35, 22 February 2009 (EST)

The article has now been moved to Gapesie National Park, which I think was a mistake even though it matches Wikipedia's title. [w:Gaspésie National Park] opens with:

"Gaspésie National Park (French: Parc national de la Gaspésie) is a provincial park located ...

This is a provincial park, not a national park. The confusion arises because the French word nation and English "nation" have somewhat different meanings, and both sides of the controversy around Quebec separatism add distortion beyond that. In French, referring to Parc national de la Gaspésie is normal. In English, we should call it a Quebec provincial park.

If we do not move it to a better name, we at least need to add an explanation. Pashley (talk) 00:40, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

I have moved it. Pashley (talk) 16:51, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

The official name is "Gaspésie National Park". Quebec is a recognized "nation" by the Government of Canada in both English and French, so it makes sense, and anyway it is the name the park is known, so it adds more confusion to use a different name on Wikivoyage than the reverse, it is better to use the name something is known as than the more "technically correct" name on Wikivoyage in my opinion. It has nothing to do with the difference between the meaning of the words "nation" in French and in English, they mostly mean the same anyway, it is just that Quebec government decided to use "national park" as a name for its "provincial parks", see New Brunswick who also use official French names, it doesn't use the name "national park" for "provincial parks", it is an official choice by the government of Quebec and I think Wikivoyage should follow it. It is how the park is known after all, and this is the most important factor for a traveler. Amqui (talk) 16:31, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Explanation copied from Wikipedia: "Note that both federally and provincially administered parks in Quebec are labelled "parc national" (national park). Federal national parks are distinguished by the addition of "of Canada" in their official name." [1]. I don't think we should differ on Wikivoyage even if it doesn't fit the same standard as other Canadian provinces, it is a different region with different naming conventions. Amqui (talk) 16:41, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Pashley, your decision to move this article was overly hasty. In addition to Amqui's explanation, which is quite correct, we have the Google test: 66,200 hits for "Gaspesie National Park" vs. a measly 5,610 for "Gaspesie Provincial Park" (and, incidentally, only 2,300 for current article title "Gaspe Park", the bulk of which refer to an iron ore mine). At Wikivoyage the traveller comes first, and said traveller is far more likely to a) read parc national as "national park", b) hear this place referred to in English as "Gaspésie National Park" rather than "Gaspésie Provincial Park", and above all, c) not particularly care whether the park is run by Parks Canada or Sépaq. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:14, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it was at all hasty; it was over five years from first pointing out the problem to acting to fix it.

The phrase "national park" normally has a specific meaning in English and that meaning does not apply to this park. Pashley (talk) 03:31, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Interesting history:

• 2005, created as Parc de la Gaspésie
• 2009, moved to Gaspé Park (me)
• 2013, moved to Gaspé National Park (Amqui)
• 2014, moved to Gaspésie National Park (Andre)
• 2014, moved to Gaspé Park (me)

I find it hard to imagine why anyone would think "Gaspésie" appropriate in an English title, though of course we should give the French in the text. As for "national", I can see the argument for it but I think it is unnecessary and maybe confusing for readers. Pashley (talk) 03:57, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

What would truly be "confusing for readers", Pashley, is if we steamrolled ahead either a) referring to the park by a name that few other sources use, solely because of the technicality of who runs it (in the case of "Gaspé Provincial Park") or b) referring to it by a name that no other sources use in an awkward attempt to split the difference between the two sides of the debate (the current title). From the traveller's perspective, there's very little effective difference between a national park and a provincial park: they're both large expanses of land, usually wilderness, owned by the government and set aside for purposes of environmental conservation and tourism. To get all hung up on the nitty-gritty particulars of which government organism is in charge of the park is irrelevant to travellers and, frankly, arguably an encyclopedic matter better suited for Wikipedia. That being the case, ttcf comes into play, and clearly the most useful title for our readers is "Gaspésie National Park".

Furthermore, I'm not 100% sold on your idea not to use the word "Gaspésie". The Google test favors "Gaspé National Park" over "Gaspésie National Park", but the English Wikipedia favors "Gaspésie". Furthermore, the place name "Gaspésie" has currency in English (Tourisme Gaspésie uses it in the official English-language version of their website, for example), and there's no precedent on Wikivoyage that names of national parks need to be transliterated into English (we have articles called "Utrechtse Heuvelrug National Park" and "Kongernes Nordsjælland National Park", not "Utrecht Hill Ridge National Park" or "North Zealand of the Kings National Park").

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:32, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

The traveller may care if a park is federal or provincial if they hold season passes which cover one group of parks but not the other. There's also a perception that services in federal parks are more likely to be bilingual, due to the Official Languages Act (although in practice Québec tourism is marketed in both languages of economic necessity in any case). K7L (talk) 19:07, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Confusion among season pass holders is a minor issue that can be addressed in the article's "Understand" section, and I'm not sure why the fact that federal parks are "perceived" to be more likely to have bilingual services is relevant for our purposes if that perception is not, in fact, true (this is borne out by my own experience: on my trip to Quebec in 2012 I visited Gaspésie and Mont-Tremblant "National" Parks of Quebec and Forillon National Park of Canada, and basically everything in all three parks was presented bilingually).

I repeat: neither "Gaspésie Provincial Park", "Gaspé Provincial Park" nor "Gaspé Park" are anything approaching likely search terms. There are ways to note and describe the difference between the national parks of Quebec and Canada within the article, but changing the name of the article itself is a ridiculous overreaction that causes more problems than it solves.

I notice that other than myself, the three main participants in this discussion are a French-Canadian and two English-speaking Canadians. Perhaps we need an outsider's perspective. Ikan? Ypsi? Powers? Texugo?

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:32, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

For naming controversies like this, I'm usually happy to go with whatever WP has decided. Texugo (talk) 20:35, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

My feeling is that there probably isn't such a famous English-language name for the park that it would be better to use that name than the official name. All the other names discussed in this thread can be redirects. Ta-da! No more confusion! Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:39, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

We should call the park the same as the ones who are in charge of the park call it. For other common names for the park we can make redirects. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Gaspésie National Park name matches up with WP entry - in WV this redirects to Gaspé Park - add a few more redirects if needed and a note containing the various AKAs (Also known as) in the main article Gaspé Park - even wilder would be the name : Gaspésie National Park (Parc national de la Gaspésie) -- I would keep it simple so Gaspé Park is fine - just a thought Matroc (talk) 21:35, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

The official name of the park may be confusing, but it appears to be the best available choice. We can explain the import of the name in the article proper. Powers ^(talk) 01:11, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

It looks like we've got a pretty strong consensus here. Absent any unexpected developments, I'm going to change the article's title back to "Gaspésie National Park" imminently, and also add a section clarifying the park as run by the Quebec provincial government, rather than the Canadian national one, and mentioning that Parks Canada season passes are no good at Gaspésie. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:01, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Quebec (through Sépaq) is offering a similar pass for its "national parks" by the way, see the French article for more details if needed. The bilingualism is a moot point, you have more chance to have services in English in a big provincial park such as this one in Quebec, than in a small federal one in English-speaking Canada that have to offer services in French by law but in practice doesn't (or have only one or two staff bilingual "somewhere"), said from a French-Canadian living in Alberta, so let's not go there with that argument please. All that aside, I believe in the principle the traveler should come first on Wikivoyage and as such the name used in tourist guides, by the organization itself and on the road signs should be used while still mentioning other names in the page itself (and with redirects), in this case "Gaspésie National Park" (or maybe "Gaspé National Park"). Thanks, Amqui (talk) 15:39, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

All that being said, I agree with Pashley that "Gaspé" is the common name in English for "Gaspésie" (even though it is still technically in French...). In fact the name of the region "Gaspésie" becomes "Gaspé Peninsula" in English. However, "Gaspésie National Park" may be the right title given that we usually only translate the generic part of a name on wiki projects (parc national in national park in this case) and may be more useful for a traveler since signs in the province of Quebec are in French only and use "Gaspésie". Amqui (talk) 16:59, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm aware of the "carte annuelle réseau Parcs Québec" (fr/en); all I'm saying is that a "carte réseau" from Gaspésie "National" Park won't work at Grosse Isle "National" Historic Site (or vice versa), even if Gaspésie's "carte réseau" is honoured sans question in Anticosti. K7L (talk) 00:27, 2 August 2014 (UTC)