Talk:Jersey

For future reference the Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Jersey/CIA World Factbook 2002 import. -- (WT-en) Huttite 07:48, 29 Mar 2005 (EST)

---

Jersey

Hello! You have just undone a change which I have made to Jersey. I can assure you there are no cities on the island of Jersey. Danrok (talk) 18:03, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I believe, but I guess we're using "City" instead of "Parish" here on WV. --Saqib (talk) 18:17, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

The two words are not interchangeable, and have an entirely different meaning. To describe a parish as a city is nonsensical. Can you provide a link to the relevant policy here? Danrok (talk) 18:30, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Isn't parish is a church territorial unit and it has nothing to do with civilian administration. --Saqib (talk) 18:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Depends on where you are; Louisiana has parishes instead of counties, for instance. LtPowers (talk) 19:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

In Jersey, parishes are administrative sub-divisions, each with it's own elected officials. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parishes_of_Jersey Danrok (talk) 12:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:Geographical hierarchy#Cities — in a nutshell, we don't see the need to fuss too much about the wording, but do have a need for consistent templates for the destination guides. I gather that Parishes are the administrative divisions of Jersey, not municipalities? If so, I would recommend handling this similar to how we divided up content on Barbados, i.e., only use a "regions" header, explain that the following divisions are known as "parishes," and try to keep the division simple, flat, and neat. Does that make sense?

No, referring to a village as a city does not make any sense. Apples are apples, not oranges. Danrok (talk) 12:09, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, please move this discussion to Talk:Jersey. --Peter ^Talk 18:51, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Alternatively, we could simplify the subdivisions drastically, since there are only 100,000 people living on the island, and try to limit the number of sub-destination guides to 3-4? --Peter ^Talk 18:54, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

From the traveller's perspective there is no need to have an arbitrary or artificial number "of sub-destination guides" at all. Either have the natural number or none at all.

My own view, as an outsider thousands of kilometres away and looking at the paucity of information on the "sub-articles" of Jersey, is to blend that sparse information into one seamless Jersey article and then change the existing handful of Jersey articles to re-directs to the main, single, Jersey article.

Our UK article treats the Channel Islands as "Regions" and the Cities section of the Region template says that if there are no cities then it's OK to call the section Towns, Villages or whatever is appropriate and it seems like a good solution in conformance with our existing policies to call them exactly what they are - Parishes. Surprisingly, it's only the second time I've read Region#Cities and the current relevant policy (in case this crops up again) is:

Per Wikivoyage:One-liner listings, cities and towns should be listed in alphabetical order. If the region corresponds to a political entity (such as a state or a province), always list its capital city first.

Lastly, if calling the settlements in this region "cities" is a real stretch -- say, for remote or rural areas with only towns and/or villages -- it's OK to rename this section 'Towns' or 'Villages' or 'Settlements' or whatever. But if there are lots of different kinds and sizes of settlements, just leave it as "Cities".

-- Alice^✉ 07:23, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Six years later: Not much seems to have happened out of this 2013 debate. Jersey is about five miles long by nine miles wide, so I suggest that the natural and default position is to describe it on a single page. It's well developed for visitors, but not so heavily that a single page would be unwieldy. Any counter-argument? Otherwise I'll make a start on, let's see, Fri 6 Sept. I'm making a similar argument for Guernsey. Grahamsands (talk) 13:13, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Hm. I'm generally in favour of consolidating small articles into a larger, more useful one, but in this case, several of the articles have rather a lot of listings. I think that consolidating would lead to an unwieldy article that would be difficult to navigate. Ground Zero (talk) 13:42, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I did some work on this region in 2016/2107 and came to the conclusion making each parish a city article was the best solution. --Traveler100 (talk) 13:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

By my count the entire island totals 19 See, 8 Do, 18 Eat, 6 Drink and 15 Sleep, which feels eminently wieldy IMO. Lots of cities have far more; nothing that can't be overcome by a few subtitles and clustering of entries geographically. Perhaps there are more that deserve adding but that's true most places. Status quo doesn't look healthy, with a wash of red ink and places like St Saviour and St Martin with barely a handful of entries. Any attempt to cluster parishes would run up against the problem that the bulk of facilities are in St Helier and in St Brelade / St Aubin just 2-3 miles apart; so "balance" would end up as an east-west division of Jersey that makes no sense from a traveller perspective. So a single page looks like the least-bad option - could you stomach that given the numbers cited? Grahamsands (talk) 20:08, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm not convinced, but if you're willing to put the work into improving our Jersey coverage, I won't object to your plan. Ground Zero (talk) 14:23, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Traveler100, would you be okay with that? It doesn't diss the approach you took in 2016 / 17: making editorial decisions is what we're here to do, only things sometimes look different a few years down the line. Grahamsands (talk)

Support. If there are too many listings, we can always trim the entries by removing those poorly described. Looking at the map of Jersey, it's small and multiple articles for small places is going to be difficult. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:21, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

I am fine with merging and seeing how the article looks. As long as the existing pages are made redirects and not deleted we can always change at a later date. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:31, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Done as proposed, everything was redirected into a single page for Jersey, and generally updated. The Channel Islands page now needs a spruce but nothing major. But the big unknown is how entry, work and residence rules might change with the ongoing debacle of Brexit (ditto on Guernsey). Unwise to guess so I've not touched those. Grahamsands (talk) 19:41, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh, please look at the fix in the item below. Perhaps I will help with the "spruce" effort here, but look at what Ground Zero just did on Jersey.--Dthomsen8 (talk) 22:04, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Granville is in Normandy

"Manche Iles sail to Jersey from Granville" in the "By Boat" needs fixing, so Granville links to Granville (Normandy) and not to a Disambiguation page, but I don't know how to achieve that in WikiVoyage editing. WikiVoyage is like Wikipedia, but not easy for even a very experienced Wikipedia editor. Would some WV editor pleas fix it? --Dthomsen8 (talk) 03:11, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

@Dthomsen8: I have made the edit. You can check the edit history here to see how it's done. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 04:04, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

@Ground Zero: @Ground Zero, You sure found many more corrections in the Jersey. The Granville fix you did was the same as what I would do in Wikipedia, but I did not know how to do the editing for that fix. Incidentally, I was in Jersey for three days in June 2018, and I want to go back. I have fifteen books on Jersey and the other islands, and I have done quite a bit of work on articles.--Dthomsen8 (talk) 21:52, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Type of article

Would this not in fact be a country article? Jersey (and Guernsey) are pretty much autonomous entities, with the UK only responsible for citizenship and some of its foreign relations.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:42, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't have enough of a sense of what the islands are like from a traveller's perspective to be able to say. If we made this a country article, what would that mean for the Channel Islands article? —Granger (talk · contribs) 09:21, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Some amount of rethinking is needed regardless. The Guernsey article seems to have subarticles for Alderney, Sark, and Herm, but not for the main island of Guernsey itself, so it's sort of a cross between a region article and rural area article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 09:32, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I haven't visited the Channel Islands either (apart from docking in St Helier at midnight on board the slowest ferry in the world), so don't necessarily know any better than you. That said, I don't think there's a problem with the Channel Islands article remaining a region article, as there are plenty of examples of countries breadcrumbing under regions.

Probably a good idea to ping User:Grahamsands and User:Jèrriais janne at the very least, to see what they think should happen.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:35, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

This is probably bigger than Nauru, and we treat it like a country and not an Australian territory. And I think this should also be treated like a country. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 10:39, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Nauru is de jure independent, is it not? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:11, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

It's been independent in 1968 but most of its activities heavily relies on Australia. Especially the detention centre SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 11:46, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Nonetheless, it's a rather different situation to that of the Channel Islands.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:59, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I notice that the Isle of Man is labeled as a region article. How similar is its situation to the Channel Islands? —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:39, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Similar, if not identical. All three are W:British Crown dependencies, with their own government, laws, tax status, and immigration rules. Their head of state is the Queen (as Duke Normandy / Lord of Mann), and they depend on the UK for defence and some foreign relations.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:46, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Or, looking at it another way, while they're not sovereign states, they have just as much right (if not greater right) to call themselves countries as British Overseas Territories (speaking of which, I note that some of those have country status, others city or rural area - a bit of a tangled mess!) --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:08, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Jersey, Guernsey and Isle of Man are effectively small countries or microstates, with a lot of autonomy but not independent, so they're as much nations as (say) San Marino. Guernsey has the further oddity that it has constituent inhabited islands with considerable autonomy. Re-badge the pages if you will but it shouldn't affect content or layout should it? There is no jurisdiction called "The Channel Islands" but there are some helpful collective statements that could be made, if only we knew what those were. Their relationship with the EU is in flux as last week's fracas showed, they may need to re-think their labour and residential laws, and I deferred working on that page until there was a bit of stability. Grahamsands (talk) 18:16, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Constitutionally, you may be correct. What about from the traveller's perspective? How many readers would think of them as being associated with the UK, and how many would expect to see them as countries? We categorise Wales and Scotland as regions, even though they are commonly called countries. I don't think that the constitutional status should be the deciding factor here. Maybe in Wikipedia, but not in a travel guide. Ground Zero (talk) 19:54, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't really follow your argument, mate. Wales and Scotland are breadcrumbed under the country article United Kingdom; the Crown Dependencies are breadcrumbed directly under the continental region Britain and Ireland. We're already not doing what you imagine people would "expect" (and isn't one of the points of travel to overcome false expectations about foreign countries?)

Granger made a good point with his original edit; Jersey isn't much of a region with zero subdivisions (are there other examples of such?), but equally I don't think rural area really cuts the mustard either.

From the traveller's perspective, even though they broadly follow UK law and are part of the CTA, the Crown Dependencies do issue their own visas (albeit through British embassies and consulates) and don't necessarily have the exact same requirements for entry as the UK. And of course you can travel to the islands, e.g. from France or Ireland, without setting foot in the UK.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:14, 16 May 2021 (UTC)