Talk:Lunigiana

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Lunigiana

Wikipedia says:

The Lunigiana (pronounced [luniˈdʒaːna]) is a historical territory of Italy, which today falls within the provinces of Massa Carrara, Tuscany, and La Spezia, Liguria. Its borders derive from the ancient Roman settlement, later the medieval diocese of Luni, which no longer exists.

If that's the case, who's going to search this term up? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:31, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Should we move it to 1 Bagnone and rewrite accordingly? That's where the banner comes from. Then we'd have an outline with Understand from Wikipedia, pagebanner and little else – but if we find a single restaurant and lodging in addition to sights mentioned in Wikipedia, then it fulfils our criteria on an article. Our article Massa-Carrara (province) just links to Massa, Carrara and this, while its banner seems to suggest something totally different from the two "cities". Do we want to cover all of the Italian provinces or just the most important cities and resorts? –LPfi (talk) 09:05, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

What's wrong with keeping this as an extraregion? Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:29, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Boundaries that are not well-known mean more work in deciding what information belongs there, and even having the extraregion means more work: per definition any attractions in the extraregion should be added to articles in the normal hierarchy. And what is the use of this extra work, if nobody knows or searches for the extraregion? Extraregions are useful for regions that are common search terms, or that have a lot to be told about them that doesn't fit in elsewhere. Nobody has found inspiration to tell anything about this one in the 16 years of this article's existence. –LPfi (talk) 17:11, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

First, why does anything about the article need to be changed? Second, why do you think nobody knows about or searches for this term? If it's a really useless term, I suppose it could be redirected to the smallest region that includes the extraregion, just in case someone does search for it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:12, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

• Delete. Wikivoyage should focus on being a travel guide. Obsolete historical terms like this term from the Roman era don't belong in a travel guide. Historical travel topic articles with relevant sites and museums make sense for a travel guide, but this isn't one of those. I think that this should be a matter of policy, so that we don't have amateur historians creating articles or redirects for historical terms like w:Lenapehoking or w:York, Upper Canada. These may do no harm, but they do no good in a travel guide. The "no harm" argument could also be used for nicknames like "the Big Apple", "the 6", "the Great White North", "Oz" or "Blighty". I don't think we should waste time on things like this. Ground Zero (talk) 23:29, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

That is the issue: Do we know that people don't use this term now? I don't know. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:34, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Google gives 3.26 million hits. Keep. Pashley (talk) 02:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Whoa! Yes, definitely keep if even, say, 1/20 of those results are searching for the region. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:03, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

• (edit conflict, slow writer). Weak keep. My initial thought was to delete. But I Googled the word and, to my surprise, got 2.5 million results. The first 10 results look travel-related, except for WP. And our article was among them, at #10. Also, we have articles in 3 other language versions – the Italian one is much longer, albeit mostly historical rather than travel info. And we are linked from the WP article. It is not pulling much traffic – extrapolating the pageviews for last 90 days (excluding today) I calc 45 views a year. But, I remember how hard we worked and how we struggled for the early years of En:WV on Wikimedia to get anywhere much in search engine rankings. The article has little value for direct travel purposes, but if the page was the entry point to WV for a few readers and they went on to view other pages, that's a good little result for the project. Nurg (talk) 03:24, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

On a side-note, when I look at Massa in English and Italian, I see that we haven't run out of things to write about yet. Nurg (talk) 03:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

It's a pretty terrible entry point to WV. Anyone thinking they will find information on Lunigiana here will find just this, and be disappointed. We shouldn't think that click-bait pages are going to draw in new readers. If there actual travel information here, it would work to WV's benefit, but this will just drive potential readers away.

The German and Chinese WV articles have even less, and the Italian one is just amateur history. The presence of those articles is not a good reason to keep this one. Ground Zero (talk) 03:46, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

The map is clearly inadequate, but some disambig-type extra-region articles don't really need to be any longer than this. For example, Persian Gulf is only a bit longer. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:16, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Tangent: I just removed the one "Sleep" listing from Massa, because the previously listed agro-tourism location is near Massa Marittima, which is very far from Massa and which we have no article for. See Talk:Massa for more on this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:33, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

If we are to keep the article, we should write listings about some (three?) of the most important sites and create city articles with eat and sleep for those locations (one is enough if those sights are concentrated to one province). That'd make the extraregion usable. –LPfi (talk) 11:17, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

• Keep. It seems this term is not obsolete, but rather is still used to talk about travel: [1] [2] [3] [4] —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:47, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Other sites may have travel articles about Lunigiana, but we don't have one. No-one seems interested in writing one, and no-one has done so in the last 16 years. We would be providing better information to the reader by redirecting this to Massa Carrara. Ground Zero (talk) 17:57, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Maybe so; I'm not sure whether an extraregion or a redirect is best. But it seems like a plausible search term, so we shouldn't delete it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:04, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Keep - it's a common search term and a region referred to in official tourism websites per above. Gizza ^(roam) 23:09, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

• Outcome: 2 deletes (inc myself), and all other votes seem to be a keep. Therefore, kept. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:40, 18 December 2021 (UTC)