Holy triple m

Hello, Holy triple m! Welcome to Wikivoyage.

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Thanks for your edits to articles about the Île-de-France! I think you deleted a pagebanner by mistake, so I restored that. Carry on!

Amicalement,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:49, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Bonjour Holy triple m, laisse moi te souhaiter la bienvenue. C'est agréable de voir les articles français améliorés. Continuez votre bon travail et meilleures salutations d'Australie! Merci! (Pardon moi pour mon horrible français - je ne suis pas un native français orateur) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 22:57, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Haha thanks, just to be clear I'm not a French native speaker either, I just happen to be a local resident :) Holy triple m (talk) 19:54, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I think you just said it was "good for articles in improved French". :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:19, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Haven't spoke french in months, so it sort of explains why. There's also the fact that "It's nice to see our french articles improved" means "C'est agréable de voir les articles français améliorés" but a reverse translation could also mean "It's nice to see our articles in french improved". SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:23, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

<<En français>> means "in French". We don't have articles in French on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:42, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Just a prime example of why I don't want to edit the French Wikipedia, and get blocked. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:02, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Should be "les articles français" though. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 08:03, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

We don't have French articles; we have articles about France. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:48, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Minimal use of images

Thanks for all the great work you're doing! Do be careful not to add too many thumbnails for the amount of text, though; we have a minimal use of images policy in order to avoid a long stream of thumbnails extending beyond the end of the article on people's browsers. For example, the Boulogne-Billancourt article now has 4 images that are past the end of the article (including codes) on my browser. Do you plan on increasing the length of that article's text by 5 paragraphs or so? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:48, 27 June 2021

Done! Holy triple m (talk) 21:51, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

You can also consider moving some of the images to one of the earlier sections. That will partially fix the problem. You still may need to add more text but not as much. Gizza ^(roam) 23:57, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

You could also reduce the img size to maybe <100px. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 00:29, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Date formatting

Thank you for your excellent work on French articles. The Wikivoyage community has chosen time and date formats to make it easier for travellers to find information (WV:TDF). For days of the week, abbreviate to the minimum number of letters – M Tu W Th F Sa Su – in lists and where space is short. Also "daily" is the simplest way of saying that a place is open everyday. "Monday to Sunday" says the same thing, but it's more complicated. Regards, Ground Zero (talk) 15:09, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Maisons-Laffitte

Regarding this edit, do you think it serves travellers better to list this hotel or not list this hotel? I moved it to the closest town, because Eragny is not an interesting place, and there is no reason to have an article about it. By deleting it from Maisons-Laffitte, are you saying that it is better not to list a hotel 14 km away than to list one? That does not make sense to me. Many travellers use cars, so 14 km is not far away. Not everything in Wikivoyage has to be accessible by public transit. Maybe a better approach than deleting useful information would be to add other hotels that are closer to the centre of Maisons-Laffitte, if you know of any. Ground Zero (talk) 21:49, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

I do understand that 14 km feels quite a lot in Europe, while in North America or Oceania – it's nothing. But something's better than nothing. Innamincka has listings over 300 km away, and there was once a listing nearly 800 km away before I removed it for the better. Now that's an extreme example, but it's pretty common for listings to be out of town (particularly for articles about North America and Oceania) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:31, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

But we're not talking about a remote outpost in the outback, we're talking about a suburb of one of the largest cities in Europe. And one that's very well-connected not just to the centre of Paris but also its largest business district. A large proportion of people who live in European cities don't own a car and short-term visitors to European cities wouldn't even remotely consider renting a car if they don't have to, in fact driving in Paris is actively discouraged. And it's unreasonable to expect someone to want to stay in a hotel that they can only get to by car. So I would argue that yes, even having nothing would be preferable to keeping this entry. Holy triple m (talk) 21:58, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

It's still better than no listing. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:34, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I disagree. See my reply to Ground Zero below. Holy triple m (talk) 22:45, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Better example, have a look at Central Nordsjælland. It's a guide article, yet one of its sleep listings are out of town. However, in this case, I've added another sleep listing to this article, this time in town. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:48, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

So I'd have kept it in if we were talking about a relatively rural area with few amenities, but Maisons-Laffitte is a suburb of Paris. A person specifically staying in Maisons-Laffite would either do so for close proximity or because, say, they want a cheap hotel that has good transport links to Paris or La Défense. Nowadays Booking.com is a thing so if someone looks for a hotel on Wikivoyage it would be to look for particular recommendations. A reader might therefore be misled into booking a hotel in Eragny assuming it was much closer to or more accessible from Maisons-Laffite than it actually was, and that's why I decided to remove it. I admit I don't have any particular recommendations for hotels in the area - I live in the Western suburbs of Paris myself and have no reason to stay in a hotel there - but even somewhere like La Défense would be closer, more easily accessible by public transport and would have a wider range of hotels than Eragny. A quick search on Google maps shows two hotels in Maisons-Laffitte with rooms currently available. I would therefore recommend the entry for deletion and perhaps replaced with a redirect to La Défense or Nanterre/Rueil-Malmaison unless another user has a better recommendation. Holy triple m (talk) 21:50, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

The listing says that it is 14 km from M-L on the N184, so there is no risk that a reader will be misled into booking this hotel. Our approach in Wikivoyage is not to decide for readers, but to give them information and let them decide for themselves. If there were too many hotel listings in this article, then I could see dropping those that are not in the suburb. To say that readers would be wrong to choose to stay in Eragny and we should provide no listings instead doesn't make sense to me. Ground Zero (talk) 22:18, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

But it also might mislead someone to think that there were few other options around. I have added a link to La Défense in the Sleep section, and I guess maybe one could add two chain hotels in Maisons-Laffitte (https://www.hotel-maisonslaffitte.com/, https://www.choicehotels.com/fr-fr/france/maisons-laffitte/quality-inn-hotels/fr349), there's also a large campsite on a river island (https://www.sandaya.fr/nos-campings/paris-maisons-laffitte). While I can't personally vouch for their quality from first- or second-hand experience, even the crappiest hovel in the area would probably warrant inclusion more than some hotel 14 km away that doesn't seem in the least bit special. I'm really sorry but there is literally no reason to include this entry whatsoever. Holy triple m (talk) 22:43, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

At no time does Wikivoyage purport to be a complete guide to any place. And now that SHB2000 has added a listing that is in M-L, there is no concern whatsoever. It is generally better to focus on improving an article by adding content than to argue about deleting content. This article is only now at the "usable" level. A lot more content is needed for it to be considered a "guide" article. Ground Zero (talk) 22:54, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I'll stop arguing with you as it's late and I should probably go to bed, but now that there is a legit entry I really want to delete that Eragny one. Literally the only reason why I haven't already is so that I don't get banned for vandalism.

I've also added a hotel entry in the same vein for Saint-Cloud (France), let me know what else it needs to get to usable status Holy triple m (talk) 23:19, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Wikivoyage:City article status has everything needed for a "usable" article. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:24, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Listings in region articles

Holy triple m, thanks for your updates to Île-de-France, but please note that individual attractions don't get templated listings in region articles. Instead, sections like "See" should mention some highlights, with links to the relevant city - or in the case of Paris, district (arrondissement) - article. We don't want a long list of museums in Île-de-France.

All the best,

Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:55, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Holy triple m, please take note of the advice that Ikan Kekek has provided you regarding templates listings in region article. Please see Wikivoyage:Region article template#See, which says "Don't give full details about each attraction (use prose, not a listing template)". Are you going to covert these to plain text? If not, your edits may be reverted. Ground Zero (talk) 02:36, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Ok, can you please give me an exemplary Region article I should follow for guidance? Also what should I do about some of the attractions that were added before me (e.g. Musée Fragonard) which do not have their own City article? Holy triple m (talk) 17:32, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

The best thing is normally to move such listings to the article for the nearest town Wikivoyage has an article for. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:16, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

For the best articles to emulate, you are usually best off looking in Category:Star articles. Keep in mind that articles for huge cities that are divided into districts on Wikivoyage are analogous to region articles. A few examples to look at include Bali, Singapore, Chicago, San Francisco and Washington, D.C.. Just because they're stars doesn't mean they're perfect, but this'll give you a good place to start. And when you're done with that, you can see how Category:Guide articles handle things. Some are countries, such as Australia (Singapore is, too, but it doubles as a huge city). Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:30, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

As an example, Newfoundland and Labrador which is up to be featured on the main page soon is a good one to use for inspiration. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:28, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

chemindescretes.fr

Hi, Holy triple m. Is that a private organization? Unless it's governmental (which it doesn't look to be), we normally wouldn't be able to link it, per the what not to link to guidelines. It's always possible to argue for an exception on an article's talk page, though, so if you feel like it's impractical for us to list all the trails they list and valuable to travelers to link them, I recommend starting a thread at Talk:Île-de-France. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:09, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I just copied the link from the French version of the page. It seems to be broken anyway. I've now deleted it. Holy triple m (talk) 21:15, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

No problem! Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:26, 14 March 2022 (UTC)