User talk:Prof tpms/Archives 2013 - 2015
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Please do not insert image links before the banner tag. The banners are designed to go right across the page, not to have another image next to them, Consider moving the images later in the article, away from the banner, but at least definitely put them below the banner. Pashley (talk) 10:02, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Hi. Thanks for contributing. I'm really glad there are more users adding badly needed information about places in India! However, please do not copy and paste large amounts of text from Wikipedia, and especially not without attribution. If you want to copy information from Wikipedia and edit it, please do so in your own userspace (such as by creating a User:Prof tpms/Mananthavady article), not in articlespace (Mananthavady). Also, please read the links User:Pashley left for you above. We have developed standard article templates that do not include sections with names like "Places of interest," "Stay" or "Get out." Please have a look at the standard templates. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:15, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks again for adding more information about places in India! I'd like to request once again for you to please use article templates. One easy way to do this is to type the title of the city (village, whatever) you want to write about into the "Search" box, and then when you don't find it, choose to "Create the page "Xyz" on this wiki!" and choose the appropriate article type (usually "City"). A standard article template is then created, and you can go about adding content to it.
- All the best,
Cities and districtsEdit
Hi, and thanks as always for adding content on places in Malabar!
I edited your work on the Malabar article in two main respects:
(1) I delinked the district names because all of the links were to city articles except one that redirects back to Malabar. Articles about these districts might be needed soon, but before you create new district articles, please start a discussion at Talk:Malabar, explaining why, and see if others agree.
(2) For better or worse, the word "city" on Wikivoyage encompasses all inhabited places, down to the smallest village worth having its own article. Therefore, I changed "towns" back to "cities" in the "Cities" section of the article. I did maintain your division of towns into the various districts, because otherwise, the list would be very long - which is a good argument for district articles, if you'd like to make one at Talk:Malabar.
If you have any questions or comments, please reply below. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
All the best,
Hi, I do not want to discourage all the valuable information you are adding at the moment but could you please review the article on Kozhikode Airport. Are the points of interest really at the airport or are they in towns nearby. Please consider the content and maybe move to other pages, and also take a look at the format of other articles. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:12, 29 April 2015 (UTC) Dear Sir, All the facilities mentioned by me are within a 15 k.m. radius of the airport. Please note that I have not included Kozhikode which is 27 k.m. away from the airport. But I have included Ramanattukara which is only 13 k.m. away. The airport town itself is quite tiny compared to the volume of travelers. With regards, Prof tpms (talk) 01:45, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
- A few comments: First, I don't think it's good procedure to include Ramanattukara, because that town has its own article and we don't believe in duplicating listings on this site. Second, it would be really helpful if you could give more specific location information: "Near the airport" will not help a traveller find a hotel, especially when no contact information (phone number, email address, URL, etc.) is given. Finally, it would be great if you would start each article with an article template. Does this explanation that I gave above need some clarification?
- I'd like to request once again for you to please use article templates. One easy way to do this is to type the title of the city (village, whatever) you want to write about into the "Search" box, and then when you don't find it, choose to "Create the page "Xyz" on this wiki!" and choose the appropriate article type (usually "City"). A standard article template is then created, and you can go about adding content to it.
- If there's anything I could clarify further about how to start an article with a template, please ask.
- All the best,
Telephone numbers of hotels near the airport couldn't be provided because I have collected the names of the hotels from a moving bus. They will be added when made available. Prof tpms (talk) 04:31, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
- Wow, it's really diligent of you to collect hotel names from a moving bus! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:28, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
Vote for deletionEdit
I think you might want to weigh in on Wikivoyage:Votes for deletion#Kozhikode Airport.
All the best,
Kozhikode Airport should remain on Wikivoyage because- 1. The airport is 26.6 km away from Kozhikode 2. It is not in Kozhikode district but in Malappuram district 3. I have personally counted eight hotels near the airport and listed them. 4. The nearest town of Kondotty has a separate entity even though it is only 3 k.m. away. 5. It is not a small airport. It has direct flights to five foreign countries. The traffic is heavy. Regards, Prof tpms (talk) 05:40, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
Please be aware that we generally do not have articles are particular attractions. May I suggest you move the Bakel Fort article to one called Bakel. Add the fort as a See listing and maybe also mention the beaches in the area and a couple of the hotels in the village. --Traveler100 (talk) 05:04, 8 May 2015 (UTC) User:Traveler100 Thanks Traveler, I will do that. Prof tpms (talk) 05:10, 8 May 2015 (UTC) User:Traveler100 But there is no page called Bakel. Please help me by changing the title into Bakel. Prof tpms (talk) 05:12, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
- Three tabs to the left of Edit is the More button. Under that is option Move. This will let you rename the page. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:07, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
Hi. Some issues have come up relating to some of your listings. First, per don't tout, no business should be listed in more than one article: Always list it in the article for the city it's in (or failing that, the nearest city). And by the way, there really should be a reasonable limit on distance. Listing hotels 75 km from a city is pretty questionable, and I think you've done that once or twice. Second, when you delete a listing, always include a notation in your edit summary explaining why (presumably, because it closed); otherwise, it would be perfectly logical for someone to revert your edit as an unexplained deletion (and unexplained substitutions are even worse, in that they could be sharp trading practices by competitors). Third, the style on this site is not to include the name of the town in the "address" tab of a listing, unless it's not the same town the article is about. (Exception: In the UK, the name of the town is given because the postal code following that name is helpful in finding the business; postal codes are rarely useful to that extent in other countries, and they, too, are omitted.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:00, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
User:Ikan Kekek Dear Ikan, I do not tout. But the name of bigger hotels were included more than once under the assumption that quality accommodation is not available inside the small town in question. But I understand your concerns. Other points are also noted. Thank you for the suggestions. Regards, Prof tpms (talk) 10:10, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- You misunderstand. I am not accusing you of touting at all, and I'm well aware that you have no such motivation! I'm simply saying that the guidelines on preventing touting on this site forbid listing the same business in more than one article (and, with a few exceptions, also ban listing it in more than one place in a single article). Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:14, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- You know, I thought more about your remark. It's quite helpful to travellers to write exactly as you did above: [Name of town] lacks quality accommodations, so unless you really need to stay here, you may want to seek out better establishments in Name of other nearby town. You should feel free to link more than one nearby town if that's what's most useful to travellers. Or direct the links specifically to [[Name of other town#Sleep|Name of other town]] (without the "nowiki"), if you wish. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:58, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Addresses and directionsEdit
Hi, Prof. I waited a little to bring up a new topic on your user talk page, because I don't want to deluge you with too much stuff to think about, but let's talk about addresses and directions now. An address in a Wikivoyage listing should be a street address. If that's not possible, Wikivoyage:Geocoding is best, all-round. P.O. Boxes are totally useless in finding a place and should not be given in lieu of street addresses, because the "address" tab is about finding the place, not snail-mailing someone there.
As for directions, x, y or z km does not constitute directions, because while it says how far someplace is (presumably from the town centre?), it says nothing about how to get there.
For a travel article to be usable, all the places that are listed need to be clearly reachable solely by consulting that article, not by attempting to find the crucial missing information somewhere else.
What's your sense of what makes a listing truly usable for someone reading who plans on visiting a given town?
All the best,
Very useful advice. Kilometre information is given to help the traveler choose the nearest. Once the km is given it is easy to negotiate with an autorikshaw driver. I will also add 'near...' for confusing places. I give Street addressees, but in India street name is not useful for main streets because for kilometres on end the same street name is used. That is the logic of giving so much prominence to km information. regards, Prof tpms (talk) 04:27, 14 May 2015 (UTC) Kindly revert your revert of Feroke hotel listing because I have removed the name of a second hotel accidentally clubbed with another hotel. Prof tpms (talk) 04:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- I don't know which revert you're referring to, but please go ahead and edit anything as appropriate. I get your point about the number of kilometres. The thing is, there are very long streets in many places, but are there no address numbers in towns in Malabar? I mean, here in Manhattan, you can find 1 Broadway and 3000 Broadway, and then Broadway continues into the Bronx and all the way north to Sleepy Hollow, but there's no mistaking the street addresses because of the numbers. If there really are no numbered addresses, the best solution, if possible, really is Wikivoyage:Geocoding. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:28, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Ikan Kekek Dear Ikan, The numbering system is followed in some Indian cities of big size. In other places, a landmark is used to locate the place. That is why I give so much importance to the km information in case of properties which are landmarks themselves. Regards, Prof tpms (talk) 08:39, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I understand. But let's keep in mind that not only an autorickshaw rider but a driver in their own or a hired car that they're driving should be able to find the locations in question; otherwise, the article isn't really usable. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:42, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- x-number of kilometres from the centre of town along Y Road is a helpful instruction. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:16, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- This kind of thing might be good to explain in India#Get around if it isn't already explained there (I'm not going to check right now). Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:33, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
I have checked that especially the paragraph about 'Addresses'. There also the same opinion is repeated. All Indian properties have door numbers but they are given in the order of registration and not location wise. So completely useless for searching purpose. Landmarks are useful provided they are updated every year because Indian businesses of larger size have the tendency to go bankrupt and close because of Soviet style taxation. Prof tpms (talk) 09:44, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I see. Tokyo has a similarly opaque address numbering system, based on how old each building on a given street is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:07, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- But Kasaragod is a town not a big city and I don't think it will ever need a district-ifcation. I repeat what is already covered here that we only districtify cities when when they have too much information in their corresponding article. Otherwise it make no sense to divide the city/town articles into many articles and while I can agree that Kasaragod may have hundreds of restaurants and sights but all of them will not merit an entry here on Wikivoyage so I don't think there's any possibility that Kasaragod article will become massive. --Saqib (talk) 11:43, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Where to list hotelsEdit
Hi, Prof. It looks like a little bit of a mess has been created. I was looking at Tenhippalam and noticed hotels in Feroke and Ramanattukara were improperly listed in that article. Some of them are also listed in one or both of those other articles. And then there are places like Soorya Galaxy in Chruvannoor, which are again multiply listed, but which a reader has no way of knowing which town it's closest to (and therefore should be uniquely listed in). Kadavu Resort is also listed in all three of these articles at least.
The rule is a simple one: No hotel (or restaurant, etc.) may be listed in more than a single article, and it should always be listed only in the article for the city where it's situated; if its address is in a town that has no article of its own, it should be listed in the article for the nearest town.
Would you please take care of this?
Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:56, 16 May 2015 (UTC) Ikan Kekek Ikan, I will follow this rule in future. The reason for duplicating hotel names in Ramanattuakara, Tenhippalam and Feroke areas was the acute shortage of good places to stay in these three places. These three villages suddenly became big towns because of a new airport, a new university and the pressure for land in Kozhikode city. Prof tpms (talk) 00:12, 17 May 2015 (UTC) Ikan Kekek Ikan, I think this rule can be applied to restaurants also to solve our problem of clutter in city pages. People certainly go 20 km and eat but we can give the names of the nearby towns in Go next section. Regards, Prof tpms (talk) 00:42, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly. We already discussed this in the "Listings" section above. The don't tout rules forbid listing any business in more than one place - that means restaurants, stores, hotels, bars, yoga centres, etc. Don't duplicate listings, just suggest that people might also want to check the listings in the nearby towns mentioned in "Go next".
- Also, we need more than for you to follow this guideline in the future. Some cleanup (and maybe a lot — I'm not sure precisely how much, but you would know) is currently needed to make sure that listings you added are in only one article, and that that article is the most appropriate one for each listing. Please take care of that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:51, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I have gone to a few city articles where my contributions exist and made some deletions of hotels outside a 10 km range. Including bars and restaurants will simplify the work even though I have the impression that people tend to look for nearby restaurants for a weekend outing. Prof tpms (talk) 01:00, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Removal of contentEdit
- Saquib has misunderstood my work. I was not removing content of other people, I was only rewriting them to bring them into listed format. Prof tpms (talk) 01:05, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- I misunderstood? You could tell me how I misunderstood but instead you choosed to remove the section in order to hide your fault. Anyways, since you think I was wrong, I request IK to please have a look at the discussion and make judgement If I was right or not. BTW, I can see you've removed section that I created in the past as well which is not considered good behavior but since this is your user talk page so no complain. --Saqib (talk) 09:53, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
I did not put any blame on Saqib, rather I was pointing out that rewriting attractions was done to increase value of the article. But your suggestions were useful to me in the sense that rewriting will be always with caution. Prof tpms (talk) 10:15, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Well, as I stated previously such blantant deletion of useful paragraphs degrade the value of article rather than improving them. May I know what was the reason of removing paragraphs from Beypores' GET IN section. I found the existing text useful and now we can see only few lines. --Saqib (talk) 10:19, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
That paragraph on Thalassery is certainly very well written and contains so much information. But it is in Wikipedia style. That kind of information is useful only for scholars and not for travelers. Travelers are busy people looking for SPECIFIC information. They may be accessing the internet from a mobile device with limited internet access or limited battery charge. Prof tpms (talk) 10:59, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- I understand your point of view on this, but it's not one we've adopted on this site. Instead, like many paper travel guides, we believe that some context helps to make the guide interesting and instructive for travellers and combat the phenomenon of the "Accidental Tourist," who learns so little about the places where s/he travels that s/he might as well have stayed home. There is sometimes a fine line between too much information and too little information, but I would request that from now on, if you believe content should be removed for reasons of style, you please start a thread on the article's talk page and refrain from removing the content unless there is a consensus to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:05, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
All the best,
Also, I just edited the list of "Cities" in the Kerala article, but your list is 10 long, which is 1 too many cities. Please address in Talk:Kerala (not here, please) which of the 10 cities is least needed and should be removed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:19, 19 May 2015 (UTC) Ok Prof tpms (talk) 09:05, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Hello again Professor. I think few of your recent contributions fall under Wikivoyage:No advice from Captain Obvious but I'm not sure so lets have opinion of @Ikan Kekek: as well. Edits such as this, and this. I believe its people of every other country that they're usually "friendly on first appearance but surely are conservative and sensitive in political issues" and that "the religious conservatism is usually an issue and unmarried couples could be questioned". --Saqib (talk) 14:54, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think that it's absolutely important to mention that unmarried couples can be subject to safety issues. The place to mention that is "Stay safe". I also think that the prevalence of political murders and the fact that they don't affect tourists should be mentioned in the same section. A Communist tradition in a given city is interesting background for an "Understand" section. I'm a little uncomfortable about generalizations about people that I've seen in some of Prof tpms' edits — for example that the people in the mountains are friendly and the people on the coast are nasty or vice versa — but anything non-obvious that affects the safety or reception of visitors should be mentioned somewhere in an article. I do agree that it's captain obvious to say that people are often sensitive about outsiders arguing about their politics, culture, religion, etc.
- One thing I've been wondering about is where (if anywhere) in Kerala it would be safe to go with my girlfriend. The Kerala article is overlong in certain places (I made some remarks about that at Wikivoyage:India Expedition#Southern India region, though it needs some updating now), but this issue right now is not addressed at all in Kerala#Stay safe, and I think it's important for it to be addressed there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:27, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Hi. Do you think it's really a good idea to use the same photos in multiple articles so often? I'd rather we do that only in really special circumstances (like sometimes for the city where an incredible attraction is and the district article that contains that city). Also, please have a look at Wikivoyage:Image policy#Minimal use of images. I actually like a generous number of good images, but only when space allows. We shouldn't be extending images beyond the end of the text, nor should we be crowding images onto the page to such extent that we're tempted to justify some of them left or center, just in order to cram them in. At any rate, these are my views. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:12, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, agreed. But I have repeated one particular image of Theyyam temple dance because I couldn't find more images of the same art in the wiki collection. Theyyam is a kind of temple dance found only in Kannur, Kasaragod districts of Kerala. Prof tpms (talk) 09:19, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Theyyam can be an exception. The people of north Kerala are atheist and communist type. But they have suddenly found out the importance of this single superstition because large number of north Indian scholars and Europeans are regularly coming to study Theyyam. Now every atheist and believer is united in protecting Theyyam dance in which God appears as the dancer and makes terrible predictions for the next year. I wanted to highlight this art form as the main attraction of Kannur, Kasaragod districts and also Mananthavady and Vatakara towns of other districts because Theyyam has already establihsed. Prof tpms (talk) 09:35, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
- I would also encourage you to stick with photos as our image policy says, rather than finding artworks, as these technically fall afoul of our "simple photography" image policy, unless they are photographs of an artwork you can actually see in the given destination. There may be a couple of exceptions out there that we've decided are relevant enough as iconic views or works by famous artists, but I don't think random 19th-century Portuguese book illustrations necessarily qualify. Texugo (talk) 12:58, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
User:Texugo, I agree with you. But in the case of Kozhikode, it was the first place Europeans arrived in India? So for that particular location, one picture of Vasco de Gama is needed because I don't think photography was prevalent at that time. Right? Prof tpms (talk) 13:30, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
- We could decide to allow it, but it's certainly not obligatory. Christopher Columbus' voyage to Santo Domingo was equally important, and there's no picture of him in the article for that city that his brother actually founded. However, there is a picture of a statue of the explorer that is in a park there that's named after him. Is there any statue or monument commemorating Vasco da Gama's voyage in Kozhikode? If so, that, because a visitor could actually see it in Kozhikode, would be a better photo to include in the Kozhikode article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:40, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
- Even if they had had photography back then, our uses of both historical photographs and photographs of people are both extremely limited. Texugo (talk) 13:57, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
- Not just museums, but also paintings in houses of worship and other buildings that can be visited and street murals. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:15, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Wikivoyage has strict rules. But religions has stricter rules. Sabarimala pilgrims have to walk all the way from Bangalore or Hyderabad without wearing a footwear. And no pleasures are allowed, not even a steak on the way. Prof tpms (talk) 14:39, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
More on photosEdit
Hi, Prof. Thanks for adding some nice photos to articles! However, please be careful not to have photos going further down the page than the text; that doesn't look good. Thanks a lot.
- Also, I think we should be careful about photos of people, rather than places. We don't want to present "exotic" people as objects. People who are performing or in specific uniforms may be fine to post photos of. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:07, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, Ikan Kekek, I understand the point. There is a surprisingly small difference between admiring tribal culture and labeling them as examples of remoteness, simplicity or poverty. Prof tpms (talk) 00:58, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
[Unindent]Another example of photos going beyond the text is in the Kollur article. 2 thumbnails probably need to be removed. Would you please take care of that?
All the best,
- Hi. I'd like to remind you about avoiding the use of too many images on each page. Please just choose the best or most useful images that still fit reasonably comfortably on each page, given the amount of content on it. We don't want images to extend beyond what would otherwise be the end of the article, and if you are tempted to justify images left or centre, you are using too many images.
- Also, unrelated, but please don't list or use thumbnails in one article that belong in a different article, and if you include places of interest, hotels, et al. that are in a nearby town or village for which there is no article, please specify in the lede or "Understand" section that "This article also covers the nearby village of X".
- Thanks a lot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:08, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Dear Ikan Kekek, I am just replacing some of the bad photoes with clearer and new photoes. Regards,
I'm having trouble finding confirmation that this building is a Centre for Ancient Art. Do you know this personally? If not, what's your source for that information?
All the best,
I probably don't thank you as often as I should for the work you do. Thanks a lot for adding more images to articles about the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.
By the way, just to save you some keystrokes, "thumb" works the same way as "thumbnail" on this site.
All the best,
Dear Ikan Kekek, Andaman and Nicobar islands are one of the most prominent parts of India from a tourist point of view. But very few Indians and foreigners go there because of the hassles of underdeveloped facilities. So we have to give the islands a little more attention. With regards, Prof tpms (talk) 07:06, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
"Ethnic food" in IndiaEdit
Hi, Prof. I notice that a restaurant listing in Thamarassery gives the description "Ethnic food is available." I don't find the term "ethnic food" very helpful, generally, but I have no idea what it would mean in India. Could you please give a more specific description? Thanks a lot.
All the best,
Well, here in Kerala, there is a passion for 'ethnic food' by which they mean a return to 50 year old style of eating on plantain leaves. Sometimes the spices are ground in the old way instead of using the packed material available in the supermarkets. I think the main difference is the presence of a village cook in place of a mechanical urban chef. Prof tpms (talk) 13:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC) I have changed the description into 'spacious village restaurant'. Prof tpms (talk) 13:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- It seems like this should be explained in Kerala#Eat, but also briefly described in the particular restaurant listing in question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi, Prof. Lately, you seem to be putting content (such as remarks about a restaurant's cuisine) in the "directions" tab. Please don't do that. Also, please remember to exclude the name of the town from the address, if it's the same as the one the article is about. Thanks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:29, 14 September 2015 (UTC) Ikan Kekek Yes, Ikan, I will take care of these two points.̴̴̴̴ shareef. ̴̴̴̃ —The preceding comment was added by Prof tpms (talk • contribs)
̴̴Ikan Kekek Why Ikan, when I press slash four times it doesn't appear on the screen, and only two of them appear in irregular positions? ̴̃shareef
An award for you!Edit
|The Wikivoyage Barncompass|
|Sir This Star is specially dedicated for you Jadan.r.jaleel (talk) 14:59, 20 December 2015 (UTC)|