Talk:Exodus of Moses

Route

I'm wondering about the inclusion of Petra. Is it ever mentioned in Exodus? What about Tiberias? Neither are shown in maps at w:The Exodus. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:21, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

As someone that has never read the bible I took the info from the first trabel link that i googled. --Neurorebel (talk) 07:41, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

OK, well, Jericho appears to have been part of the route: See Numbers 36:13. But really, in order to establish a route, someone needs to read not only the Book of Exodus, but all 4 of the Books of Moses other than Genesis. Joshua's command of the Israelites in the Battle of Jericho (though of course mythic, like the rest of the Exodus story) is well-known. No offense, but it's always good to know something about an itinerary before you start an article about it, especially since itinerary articles aren't the core substance of this site (that would be destination articles). :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:39, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

This should be discussed further. What route should we use and why? Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:24, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Cairo

Per w:Cairo: "[T]he origins of modern Cairo are generally traced back to a series of settlements in the first millennium AD. Around the turn of the fourth century, as Memphis was continuing to decline in importance, the Romans established a large fortress along the east bank of the Nile."

So why should Cairo be part of this itinerary? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:47, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Cairo is the main transportation hub in Egypt, and a reasonable place for a traveller to start a journey. /Yvwv (talk) 00:04, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Maybe unofficially, but the journey should start in Goshen, right? What was the capital of Egypt in those days? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Foundation myth

This article is described as a 'foundation myth' for Christianity and Judaism. Although there is little physical evidence that the Israelites left Egypt in this way, is it fair to call it a myth (inferring that it is just false) rather than as a story (which is more ambiguous in judgement)? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:25, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I think this text in the Judaism article is pretty good and could be lifted (or better, paraphrased) in this one:

The second book of the Torah, Exodus, states that descendants of Jews who fled a drought in Canaan to find good pasture land in Egypt were enslaved, then liberated after God inflicted ten plagues on the Egyptians and sustained the Jews through 40 years in the Sinai desert on their way to conquering Canaan. The liberation from slavery in Egypt and the Exodus to the "promised land" of Israel are central to Jewish religion and identity and celebrated every year during the 8-day Passover (Hebrew: Pesach) holiday — and to a lesser extent, every other holiday — but historians and archaeologists have found no strong evidence that there was ever a large-scale enslavement of Jews in Egypt, nor a large-scale exodus of Jews from Egypt to Canaan, which would seem to contradict the Biblical account since the ancient Egyptians were known to be meticulous record keepers and almost certainly would have recorded such a significant event. Regardless, it is in the Book of Exodus that one God is defined as the God of the Jews, and therefore, it is that book that marks the time when the Jewish people stopped being indiscriminately polytheistic and recognized the God in Heaven as their God. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:58, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

OK, I mostly just lifted it, given that I felt it couldn't be enhanced (by me at any rate). --Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:32, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Myths don't necessarily contain no truth at all. Maybe "legend" is a better word? At any rate we should address the childish idea that JHWH=Aton and Moses=Akhnaton. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:12, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Actually it depends a lot. Some people will take 'myth' to be a complete falsehood whereas some take (your suggested) approach and believe that there is a 'grain of truth' in there. For example, the story of the great flood of Noah most likely has some actual basis in ancient flooding events, so it shouldn't be considered be a made-up story. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:00, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Hobbitschuster, could you please elaborate on that childish idea? I haven't heard it mentioned before, though I've certainly read that Exodus is an adaptation of an Egyptian myth with a heroic Pharaoh. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:31, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

I think it was expressed by the likes of Sigmund Freud based on the idea that Judaism claims to descend from monotheists residing in Egypt and Akhnaton is the earliest known monotheist in history with his cult seemingly disappearing into the void some time around the reign of King Tut. But that ignores that the timing just doesn't work, the details don't work, Atonism seems to never have been anything but a project of the elite and the metaphorical sun god Aton is nothing like the human smashing jealous intervening in history god of Exodus. And modern scholarship doesn't seriously debate such a connection either. Hobbitschuster (talk) 07:22, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh, that. Yeah, no reason to mention it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:18, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Malaria

I filled this article whith content that i took from other article about a travel through Africa. I doubt that anyone can get ill from mailaria in Egypt but as Im not sure I leave it to someone else take that away.n --Neurorebel (talk) 07:43, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Useful itinerary?

In view of the current bunch of itinerary articles nominated for deletion, I've been thinking about this one. Is the route a good one? Shouldn't it require walking across the See of Reeds? :-) But seriously, I think if we're going to keep this article, the route needs a map and the "Recommended stops/detours:" need explanations for why they're mentioned. Here's the list:

• Gondar
• Pyramids of Giza (1 day)
• Sea of Galilee (1 day)
• Jordan Valley (1 day)
• Bethlehem (1 day)
• Masada and Qumran (1 day)

I don't get why Gondar is mentioned. Sure, there's been a big modern exodus of Jews from Gondar, but all sorts of places were sources of aliyah to Israel, including memorably Yemen but also the former Soviet Union and numerous other countries. The Pyramids are not specifically relevant to the Exodus but along with the Sphinx and big temple complexes represent ancient Egypt well. Since Tiberias is part of the suggested route, how is the Sea of Galilee a detour? The Jordan Valley is a region. I get the point of the Jews looking across the Jordan at Eretz Yisrael in Exodus, but at what point did they look across the river from? Bethlehem is not specifically relevant, as the traditional place not of Jesus' Last Supper but his birth. Masada is where the last outpost of Zealots engaged in a heroic but doomed resistance against the Romans, so again not specifically relevant. Qumran is where the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered but again not specially relevant. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:08, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

You've a much better knowledge than me on this topic. Edit as you think is appropriate. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 06:17, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm no expert, plus I think this merits more discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:23, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I removed that the itinerary was intended to be undertaken on foot. The first version said "by public foot" (what's that?), but also that Cairo–Mount Sinai would take 5 days, which seems to make 100 km/day as the birds fly. More realistic for birds. –LPfi (talk) 15:18, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

• to WALK the Sinai desert from Cairo to Mt Sinai... is this physically feasible? Is this touristically enjoyable? I, who have been to Egypt already and have a fondness for archeology and Egyptology, don't hold any enthusiasm for such an enterprise, it must be said. Ibaman (talk) 15:29, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

I suppose "by foot" was a result of language issues and copy editing with the brains off. But I wonder what transport you'd use to get between the two in five days. Mount Sinai says that the bus takes 7 hr. Are you assumed to go via Luxor and Gondar and then take a boat? The Hurghada–Sharm el-Sheikh ferry is suspended indefinitely according to our articles, are there other options? I assume you don't expect to pass over the sea like Moses? –LPfi (talk) 16:52, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

I'd rather chill out in Dahab, thank you. What I mean is, should this be a valid article? Ibaman (talk) 17:19, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Ibaman's concern is why I nominated this article at vfd and still don't feel comfortable keeping it – the article that stands at this point is still unfeasible and simply listing a list of destinations isn't really useful. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:29, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Votes for deletion thread

I realiae this is going to be controversial, so I'll keep it short. Namely, it's and outline article eligible for deletion per the one-year policy and there's not a lot of travel content in it; in fact, the only travel content is the time it takes. It does have an understand section, but it's overly encyclopedic and a traveller can learn the exact same thing about it by going to the encyclopedia. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 04:21, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• Delete unless someone creates a map and connects the Biblical (and maybe in certain instances, Talmudic or midrashic) accounts directly with each suggested stop, such that a particular verse is given for each location listing. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:01, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
• Keep. The topic is promising. Made a brief route description, which can be expanded. /Yvwv (talk) 13:58, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
• Keep in its current state there is background information in Understand and other sections, listings with descriptions and a map. More than enough content to be useful. Gizza ^(roam) 23:43, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• OK, we can discuss things more in the talk page for the article, but it really makes no sense for Cairo to be part of the itinerary, since the city didn't exist in ancient Egypt (right?) and certainly was not the capital of the Pharaohs. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:44, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• I have crossed out my delete vote. I'm not sold yet but have no problem with giving people latitude to try to develop this itinerary. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:16, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
• Keep. This is a valid travel topic with useful itinerary information. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 23:17, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
• Keep. Although the route isn't well-defined, the intention is clear and alternatives can be described. It is famous enough to be kept. However, how to pass the borders, some discussion on how to get between the suggested stops etc. should be added without delay, to make it a bit more useful. –LPfi (talk) 15:24, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
• Kept per clear consensus. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:58, 27 October 2022 (UTC)