Talk:Russia/Archive 2013-2021

Archived discussions of Talk:Russia Talk:Russia/Archive 2003-2012 Talk:Russia/Archive 2013-2021

Vandalism

If anyone is wondering why I revert edits by Русич, check the history of this article at WT. For example, this one compared to the recent edit here on Wikivoyage. --Alexander (talk) 04:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

No worries, it's clear enough from the individual edits alone. --Peter ^Talk 04:45, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Specifically, point by point, without hysteria, what vandalism, haters of Russia. Русич (talk) 12:23, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

What does WikiTravel to WikiVoyage? Yes, I copied from older versions of an article about the Ancient Russian unit. You have something against Ancient Russia, mudilo? Русич (talk) 12:27, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

The information that you continue to add to the Russia article is very biased towards the USSR perspective on things. The article clearly states commonly accepted perspectives and fact, but you are modifying things to shine a false positive light on an entity that isn't even a sovereign state anymore. Political games aren't welcome here, but you are free to add factual information that is relevant to the traveller. If you continue edit warring, you may be temporarily blocked. JamesA ^>talk 13:18, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

And the information that you add to the article is extremely biased towards the anti-Russian and the anti-USSR point of view. No common points of view in the article has not been described, only nonsense. Political games for my edits have nothing to do, I generally neutral in this respect. However, you are russophobes. Blocked, if that's the price of your encyclopedia, and on the facts of a cowardly and despicable liar have nothing to say. Русич (talk) 13:58, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree that in some respects, the current wording is slightly anti-USSR, so could do with some copyediting and rephrasing. Phrases like "...his destruction of private property" seem anti-Socialist, as many feel that private property is something that should be curtailed. But your version was much more biased than the current one. Feel free to make minor changes to the current one and post them here for us to review. JamesA ^>talk 14:09, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

James, I have intentionally given links to WT, so that nobody will waste time on this guy. He is a pure vandal and writes obnoxious things here, although you may be missing the obscenity as long as you don't know Russian. --Alexander (talk) 15:11, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I repeat the question: what exactly vandalism in my edits? Русич (talk) 17:54, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

When the article wrote that the Soviet Union unleashed the Second World War, and the USA and the UK it won, it's no longer a "slightly". Besides a bunch of ridiculous inaccuracies, such as the Bolsheviks overthrew the king, and outright lies, such as delusions of inefficient economy of the Stalinist Soviet Union. With what specifically in my edits do not you agree? Русич (talk) 17:54, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Or this site has become a new Russophobes hangout? Русич (talk) 19:36, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Banner

I must say I'm not a fan of the current one. I proposed another, which I thought would show the enormousness of the country, but it was reverted as not representative. What would you say about Ugresha monastery one? Jjtkk (talk) 09:34, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't like any of those. I think that the country is too large and broad to be represented by a single photo. So we need some sort of montage, where natural and architectural sights are combined. It is just an idea, not that I am able to create one. --Alexander (talk) 09:53, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Alexander, I don't like the idea of montages here on WV and I'm sure page banners are not solely to represent a particular location. But if they do, how can a bunch of elephants represents India and a lake of local interest representing the second largest country in the world, Canada? --Saqib (talk) 10:22, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I am against montages, as well. I like both of the above proposed banners more than the current one, and mildly prefer the bottom one. Danapit (talk) 10:44, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm guilty of creating some of the banners discussed in this thread so maybe I should voice my opinion here as well :P I think the banner for a country article should represent the country as a whole and not just one or a few point(s) of interest in particular - having for example Taj Mahal in India, Niagara Falls for Canada or Kreml for Russia or a montage of pictures would simply not do. If and when the banner is changed I'd give my vote to the second one of the banners here (the uppermost could pretty much be anywhere in northern Europe or North America). But just as a thought how about some more "wintry" scene instead or maybe a couple of matryoshka dolls..? Ypsilon (talk) 11:10, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion, the banner should convey the feel of the country. As I don't have any feel of India or Canada, I won't comment on those, but if we discuss Russia – the country that I know quite well – the upper banner with nature does not fit, because it is generic and featureless. The bottom one with the "Palestinian wall" is better, although it looks Oriental, not quite Russian. Here is another idea. It combines a piece of nature and a piece of architecture. Moreover, it showcases the birthplace of Russia (well, one of the presumed birthplaces), and it won't be used in any other banner. --Alexander (talk) 11:34, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh, Izborsk picture is fantastical! I was going myself to write that I'd like some nature with a village and/or church in the background (and only in the background!), and have already found a couple of such pictures, although not satisfying me completely: [1], [2], but Izborsk is very good. Petr.Kalinin (talk) 11:55, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Izborsk is nice, I added it above. Jjtkk (talk) 13:34, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

It looks great. Danapit (talk) 14:06, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Homosexuality

The Stay Safe section should mention the situation of homosexuals and other sexual minorities in Russia. /Yvwv (talk) 20:32, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

It does seem like a glaring omission; is the situation on the ground really as bad as it seems from here? LtPowers (talk) 20:15, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

What exactly do you want to mention? There is no problem of being homosexual in Russia, but any outward demonstration of homosexuality will be frowned upon. That said, you are more likely to have problems with locals (especially outside big cities) than with the police. --Alexander (talk) 20:39, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

The thing we would want to talk about is the risk of getting beaten up or worse if you are gay. There have been horrible gay-bashing incidents in Russia, and when gays are attacked, the police don't help them, from what I remember reading. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:01, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that none of us has any real experience... Many Russian people think I am foreigner, but I never had problems with that, even though I look differently and perhaps behave more Western-style. My guess (and it is really a guess, because I have no first-hand experience, nor any of my friends do) is that being unusual will not put you in a trouble, but outward things like kissing on the street or wearing offensive T-shirts may not be appreciated. I would not say that gays are in any immediate danger in Russia. Many of them are doing well, apparently. They should simply keep in mind that they are in a conservative country, and intimate things should stay intimate. What you read in the newspapers probably concerns so-called "propaganda of homosexuality", which is now forbidden by the law, but it is a quite different story. I don't think that regular travelers should be concerned.

Finally, it would be unfair to say that people with regular sexual orientation are never involved in horrible incidents in Russia, and sometimes they do not get help from the police. In my opinion (and this is now the first-hand experience), certain places and situations should be avoided by all travelers. This is a very general and most important safety advice that applies to everyone, gays included. --Alexander (talk) 21:51, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

If "kissing on the street" is trouble, don't you think we should mention that? And perhaps delineate what constitutes an "offensive T-shirt"? (From all appearances, a T-shirt that read "Being homosexual is not a problem" would be deemed offensive and could get you arrested.) LtPowers (talk) 23:11, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, we should, although for me these things are pretty obvious and fall under a general category "avoid outward demonstrations of your homosexuality". --Alexander (talk) 06:19, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

The laws on the books as of right now are crazy (referring to the criminal ban on "propagating homosexuality"), but I can only speak to experiences before recent developments. Gay-friendly clubs, for whatever reason, are prime places for criminals targeting foreigners for drugging/mugging. Unless that's changed, it should be noted, and probably caveated that the same more or less goes for big, urban, sexually-charged nightclubs of any nature. Public displays of heterosexual affection are commonplace, while same-sex kissing is socially inappropriate/awkward. It might be worth noting that some things that would be perceived as overtly romantic in other countries (like walking arm in arm, or arm around the back) are not necessarily so in Russia, regardless of gender.

If the concern is that the police won't help in hate crimes against gay travelers, then we've totally missed the beat in the stay safe section already—the police in Russia are minimally helpful/problematic in general. As Alexander mentioned, that is not a problem tied to sexual orientation. But more broadly speaking, violent crime does seem to be, very unfortunately, a bigger risk if you are of some visible minority (not just sexual orientation).

All that said, my initial response to the first post in this thread would have been "plunge forward?" If there is a problem that someone knows about, they should add it. Russia's hardly the only place in the world where gay travelers should tread with caution. --Peter ^Talk 06:33, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

As an American, Alexander, "avoid outward demonstrations of your homosexuality" is not "obvious" at all. LtPowers (talk) 15:11, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I plunged forward and rewrote the section, if anyone has comments, please share them. I've read the comment about lack of help from police in the discussion here later, but I have a feeling, that with hate crimes (as well as some others, like domestic violence, which doesn't directly apply here), situation with help from police may be even worse than in general.SakuraKojima (talk)

Russia and time zones

Swept in from the pub

Apparently Russia is ending its three-year experiment with year-round daylight savings time. I presume this will affect a huge stack of articles here? K7L (talk) 17:42, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Specific listings in "Learn"

Right now, the following is in Russia#Learn:

Several universities and private schools offer Russian language courses with either individual or group tuition.

• Ruslanguage - Center for Russian Language Studies in Old Arbat, Moscow
• Study in Russia — Russian Language Courses at Voronezh State University
• Educacentre — Centre for Russian language and Volunteer & Internship programmes in Saint Petersburg
• Extra Class — Private school near Dostoevsky Museum in Saint Petersburg
• Liden & Denz — Private school in Moscow and Saint Petersburg
• ProBa Language Center St.Petersburg, Russia
• SRAS School of Russian and Asian Studies (all major Russian cities)
• Ziegler & Partner Russian language courses at Moscow State University
• Russian language courses of Ph.D. A.Sibiryakov - One-to-one language courses in Moscow

Does anyone want to defend having these listings at the country level? This looks to me like an obvious slippery slope, with the possibility of every individual who wants to teach Russian in any community in the country adding a listing. Furthermore, individual listings are generally not used at the country level, but only in guides for individual cities or districts within cities. And if we don't consider these real listings because they are just a link and name, I think that makes it worse for them to be in this article, not better. If we want to keep this content in this article at all, the links should be to the "Learn" sections of Wikivoyage articles, definitely not directly to external links. And needless to say, "Study in Russia" is a touty and presumptuous link term, as any possible relevant listing in this list would be about study in Russia.

Your thoughts, everyone? Shall we delete this bulletted list?

Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:52, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Oh definitely delete, and move to city articles. Given the enormous size of Russia, it seems pretty doubtful that we would just happen to have the nine best language schools listed. Better for this section would be to list a few of the largest / most-prestigious universities in the country, as well as mentioning that Moscow and Saint Petersburg have a number of Russian language schools. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 22:59, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Since I duplicated the list here, deleting it from the article would cause editors who want to check on whether these schools are listed in local guides no real inconvenience. Is there anyone who objects to deletion? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:39, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

I deleted the list from the article. Anyone who'd like to move information to city or district articles is free to use the list here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:41, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Spasibo! It would probably best to leave that task to someone with experience of the courses, or at least someone who knows the country and what constitutes a fair deal over there. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

How should we handle the Donetsk and Luhansk Republics?

I've started a discussion about how should we handle the Donetsk and Luhansk Republics (provinces of Ukraine that declared independence) at Talk:Eastern Ukraine. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 13:39, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Multiple problems with "Stay safe" section

It seems to me that it's time to update it as much of the info looks outdated. In particular about street children (I think they were taken off the streets 10-15 years ago), street crime, Russian mafia (I don't think I met a single mobster in my life so far or ever will). Also seems to me the subsections about racism and anti-gay prejudice don't help people to make a realistic judgement about risks involved in visiting Russia as a tourist. 217.66.156.243 22:59, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

• I took liberty to remove sections about corruption, juvenile delinquents and Russian mafia and updated the section about driving, because the information that they contain is outdated by 15 years or so. Hopefully someone knowledgeable can rewrite it. 92.100.34.87 07:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Currency notation

Can anyone who has been to Russia recently tell us what they see most commonly to denote the currency, e.g. prices in shops, or on restaurant menus. Is "руб", "рубль" or "РУБ" ₽? We have been using "RUB" as the Latinization of "РУБ", but I suspect that what we have been are using is wrong. The Wikipedia article on the w: Russian ruble says that the symbol is "₽, руб / р. (colloquially)". Any comments? Ground Zero (talk) 12:11, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

You can see all of them. I would say that 'руб.' (often with the dot in the end) is still more common. --Alexander (talk) 12:43, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, Alexander. Would anyone object to setting "руб" as our standard? Ground Zero (talk) 12:20, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Seeing no objection, I have implemented the change. If anyone can help on adjusting Template:RUB to reflect this. I would be grateful. Ground Zero (talk) 18:42, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

• As of January 2022, '₽' is becoming more and more in use, e.g. in price tags, billboards or mobile banking apps. In the news, in articles we are writing in full - "рублей". Within personal notes "руб." is still commonly used, although if you'd ask me - I'm using "₽". --Wolverène (talk) 18:39, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I support following Wolverène's advice, i.e., we should change the recommended notation if others agree. Ground Zero (talk) 18:41, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Hierarchy of Asian Russia

There is an idea to categorize the Urals, Siberia and the Russian Far East as part of North Asia (or Asian Russia), so they end up in the right continent. The articles would still refer to these regions as part of Russia. /Yvwv (talk) 23:00, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

No hierarchical structure is going to be perfect but a region should be under a country article no a redirect page. I have set the pages back. An alternative solution is to have a new top level Eurasia and have Russia and Turkey under that. --Traveler100 (talk) 08:30, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Russian addresses

When I added a Russian listing, I don't know how to format the address because it seems like Russia doesn't use the regular street name addresses. I looked at other Russian articles and the addresses are messy and I'm not sure if they are correct. So, if there's anyone out there who knows Russia well, how to format the Russian addresses? The SmileKat40! (*Meow* chat with me! | What did I do?) 09:56, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

• Going to answer, however it seems no longer actual. In Russia, addresses are formatted in different way comparing to how it's done in English-speaking lands. The order is generally following - 1) zipcode, 2) country, 3) region, 4) district (rayon), if needed, 5) populated place (important to designate if it is city/town, selo, village, ...), 6) the name of street/square/alley/..., 7) house number, 8) apartment number, if needed.
  For example, "140054, Russian Federation, Lipetsk oblast, town of Yelets, Lenina street, house 8, apt 3 (a totally fictional address, do not try to find it).
  If an addressee wants to receive smth to the PO box, the order is following - 1-5) same as above, 6) PO box number (looks like "а/я 350", "а/я 10" etc.). I hope it's helpful. --Wolverène (talk) 18:58, 5 January 2022 (UTC)