Talk:Sweden

Archived discussions Talk:Sweden/Archive 2005-2014

Formatting and language conventions For articles about Sweden, please use the 24-hour clock to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00. Please show prices in this format: 100 kr, and not kr. 100, or SEK100. Please use British spelling.

For future reference the Project:CIA World Factbook 2002 import can be found at Talk:Sweden/CIA World Factbook 2002 import.

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Northern Götaland

Götaland has been moved to Northern Götaland breaking a large number of breadcrumbs. Is this just one region being renamed and the sub-regions not yet fixed or a new reorganisation of regions that has not been discussed in the country or region pages? Willing to fix the situation but would be good to know what was intended. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:42, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Traveler100, I just noticed this too. I left a message with Ypsilon here, because I know he was involved. There are some discussions about it on his talk page, but I didn't quite understand what needs to be done either. Texugo (talk) 19:45, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hi, Tex and T100!

The area which was earlier called Götaland is now Northern Götaland. Basically the reason was that Nastoshka thought it was unacceptable to have an region called Götaland not 100% matching the official Götaland. I had a terrifying lot of other things to do back then, so I totally forgot about updating the static map and such. I can explain it more thoroughly tomorrow (don't have time tonight), meanwhile you can have a look at the User_talk:Ypsilon#G.C3.B6taland thread and my discussion with Nastoshka there. ϒpsilon (talk) 19:50, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I find it petty. Nobody outside of Sweden would notice or care, and there is nothing "northern" about "our" Gotaland (which is the SOUTHERN part of Sweden) except for the lack of Scania. I did not even know Scania is officially a part of Gotaland. We can explain this with one sentence, no need to move everything. We've been rationalizing the Swedish regional division resulting from people taking offence from provinces vs. counties and such and had great success with it, let's not take a step back. Please revert. PrinceGloria (talk) 04:38, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I have to say, I find it a little odd too, since having a "northern" something usually implies we would have a "southern" one too, but what is meant by "Northern Götaland" here is actually "all but the southern tip of Götaland", all but one province, 8 out of 9. I'd think it clearer to leave it as Götaland and give a tiny disclaimer that it technically includes Scania. Texugo (talk) 11:20, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Do as you like. The name change wasn't my idea to begin with. ϒpsilon (talk) 11:47, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello everyone.

Unfortunately, I also have no time today. I will respond in more detail tomorrow if you have concerns or questions.

I suggested to Ypsilon to change somehow the name "Götaland" simply because the region did not correspond to the official Götaland and for reasons of alignment with it: voy. It still sounds very strange to me to have a region named as an official region without two very important and interesting parts, i.e. Gotland and Scania. It's the same to call an article "United Kingdom" and cut off Scotland or Wales just because they have cultural and historic differences. Or - another example - Italy without Sicily who is the only region in Italy with strong arabic influences. An article without Scotland could not - IMHO - be named UK so far as an article about Italy without Sicily is not anymore Italy. This is actuallty the same with Scania, who has been for centuries a danish region.

Someone said that nobody would care about this difference outside Sweden. This is - imo - not true at all. I've been several times in Sweden and no Götland without Scania or Gotland exists even for travellers. Reg. the name "Northern Götaland" was just one of several suggestions --Nastoshka (talk) 12:57, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Not sure on which would be the best suitable name for this territory, but Götaland includes Scania and Gotland, so we should use a different name to avoid misunderstanding. According to this division we also have to split the Wikidata instance to avoid a wrong match with the Wikipedia's pages. --Andyrom75 (talk) 13:00, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Nobody outside of Sweden cares, really. And chances are Swedish readers will go to Swedish Wikivoyage. Our regions do not correspond to official subdivisions. Historically, Scania has been separate from Gotaland anyway. UK readers, however, will probably use this guide, therefore we are very specific regarding this country. In my language we almost never use the equivalent of "UK" but pretty much always "Great Britain" to refer to the UK, even if it is wrong. Even published travel guides do so. PrinceGloria (talk) 13:04, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I beg your pardon PrinceGloria, but I really don't understand such objection "nobody cares". I have only general knowledges of possible subdivisions of - for instance - China and I can - most probably with reason - say that people in Italy don't care at all. Shall I create random articles on it:voy according to what people know or care about? Imho we're a project whose core are countries, regions and cities and should not support one simply wrong subdivision just because people don't care or name our articles on breadcrumb issues basis. I would not sound pessimistic but this way leads to chaos. I think we can choose not to write articles about a region of low interest or write articles about 1. official areas, 2. touristic areas (according to visit.sweden in this case should be "Southern Sweden" with Scania and Gotland included) or have an our new organization trying to avoid as much as possible ambiguous cases. --Nastoshka (talk) 13:35, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Nobody cares if our divisions are not along the lines of official ones. It would suffice to mention in our guide to Gotaland that officially it includes Scania as well, but we have a separate guide to it, much like our guides to The Hague and Scheveningen are separate. BTW, w:Nationalencyklopedin says that the inclusion of Scania to Gotaland has been "historically inaccurate" - Scania and Blekinge used to be known as a separate "landsdel" called "Skaneland" when it was first included into modern-day Kingdom of Sweden. PrinceGloria (talk) 14:14, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of the argument from both sides, remains the fact that the portion of land is different. So I've just separated the Wikidata instance of Götaland from a new one created for this new territory. Please keep in mind to update Wikidata as well when modify territories, because Wikidata has been thought to link the same exact items (no similar ones) on different projects. --Andyrom75 (talk) 16:01, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Can we please move Northern Götaland back to Götaland, as the previous move resulted in a massive mess? PrinceGloria (talk) 19:28, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

I think I have fixed it all but would pay to double check. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:55, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Speaking Swedish as a foreigner

"Regardless of what your native tongue is, Swedes greatly appreciate any attempt to speak Swedish and beginning conversations in Swedish, no matter how quickly your understanding peters out, will do much to ingratiate yourself to the locals."

Don't Swedes have a reputation for having fairly little patience with attempts to speak Swedish if you don't do it very well, and very quickly switching to English if someone is struggling? /Julle (talk) 19:42, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Swedes and others who (generally) speak English well, will quickly switch to English. However, I guess no matter where you are in the world, locals will consider it "cool" if you've learned a little of the local language (at least saying "Hello" and "Thank you"), and this is probably what the above sentence tried to convey. ϒpsilon (talk) 20:08, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

There will be some native speakers of any language who will be annoyed at foreigner attempts to speak it, but probably more would be be happy to humor you a little and appreciate it even. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:21, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Cities and Other destinations

I have a few issues with the lists of cities and other destinations.

• First: Recently the Kiruna article was split into two articles. One for the city proper and one for the (huge) surrounding region Kiruna Municipality. Currently the city-article is listed, but I would say that the Municipality is more interesting for a traveler. It contains a vast amount of interesting destinations aside from the city, including the Jukkasjärvi ice hotel, the Esrange Space Station, the tallest mountain in Sweden and the Abisko national park. In short I think that the Municipality article should replace the city article. As a region it fits better on the OD-list than the C-list. Further, if we ad the Kiruna Municipality (a lowest level region) article to the OD-list it seems natural to remove the Abisko (a destination within that) article. Just like listing both Stockholm and Stockholm/Gamla stan it seems strange.
• Second: The Ystad article does not fit on OD-list. By Swedish standards it is a city, and it is even larger than Visby which we have listed as a city. I get the impression that Ystad didn't make the city list and was therefore put on the OD-list as a consolation. I therefore think that it should be removed from the OD-list.
• Third: Bohuslän (a region) should be replaced by Tanum (a non-urban municipality in Bohulsän). Many of the major attractions in Bohuslän can be found in Tanum, such as the UNESCO-listed rock carvings and the marine natural reserve Kosterhavet. I can see how Tanum is more interesting than most other non-urban Swedish municipalities, but it is not obvious why Bohuslän is more relevant than other Swedish regions such as Småland or Värmland. Finally, the Tanum article is in a much better shape than the one for Bohuslän.

This leaves two vacancies; one city and one OD. I would suggest Bergslagen as for the vacant OD-spot. It is a loosely defined cultural, economic and historical area in Svealand, known as the historical centre of Swedish mining, and contains two UNESCO-sites related to the mining heritage. The vacant city spot is trickier. There is a risk that Svealand will be over represented, wherefore I would suggest some city in northern or southern Sweden. Lund in Scania, a pretty campus city with a millennial cathedral and an old medieval irregular street pattern, is perhaps a candidate. Luleå with the UNESCO site "Gammelby", located in the northern end of the gulf of bottnia, is also a plausible candidate. Are there any other good candidates or comments on my issues? MartinJacobson (talk) 16:30, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

After a year and a half of hard thinking, I believe that the High Coast would probably fit better on our list of other destinations than Bohuslän or Tanum. I don't like the idea of featuring an entire province on the list of OD, and Tanum on its own does not seem spectacular enough to merit a place on the list. This would leave Norrland with five items on our lists. If we added Lund as a new city that would give Scania and Southern Sweden proper representation as well. The only drawback is that it would leave western Sweden rather underrepresented. Does anyone else have any input on this? I'm warning you, if I don't hear any objections within the next 18 months I might unilaterally plunge forward on this one! MartinJacobson (talk) 09:12, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Gender neutrality

I think this sounds too extreme: "Swedish schools aim to get rid of the distinction between boys and girls." I believe the schools are not trying to make pupils genderless, but rather not treat them differently based on sex, and letting everybody live as they want. The gym groups are probably mixed gender and teacher should not raise their eyebrow if somebody with a male name appears dressed in a skirt. The teachers should not, however, restrict pupils from acting in (what traditionally would be regarded as) feminine or masculine ways – other than having their eyes open for e.g. pupils acting unnecessary timid as part of a perceived gender role, and not accepting rude behaviour under a "boys are boys" pretext.

I have difficulties coming up with a good wording.

--LPfi (talk) 05:50, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree. And in any case, it violates tcf. /Yvwv (talk) 07:05, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Maybe something like "Swedish schools rigorously prohibit gender discrimination"? —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps. I would like to see it from some reliable source or from somebody with first-hand knowledge (as that "rigorously" may or may not be true in practice). --LPfi (talk) 10:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

There's actually a video on YouTube, where the Danes and Swedes have a debate on gender (with English subtitles). In that debate, the Danes adopted the position that gender equality is good enough, while the Swedes adopted the position that we have to go further than gender equality and aim to achieve gender neutrality, where distinctions between boys and girls do not exist. And there are numerous news articles you can find online about gender-neutral schools in Sweden that are trying to purge the concept of gender from society. (one example: [1]) The dog2 (talk) 21:36, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I have not seen the video, but I suppose the debate is about society, not gender in personal or social context (or in raising children). If so, the Swedish position is not necessarily that odd. And the preschool of your link is not mainstream, it is taken as an example of gender neutrality taken to the extreme. Still, "All the girls know they are girls" and I suppose the personnel is still acting non-gender neutral role models. It seems even that preschool is not trying to remove the gender distinction (apart from the pronoun "hen", but the Finnish have got by never having the he/she distinction). As I read it they are letting the children choose their interests regardless of gender and avoiding emphasizing gender. That is the ideal also over here (in mainstream daycare and school, and in advice to parents), although seldom practised coherently. In normal day care the children would still read also about mums and dads, not only about giraffes without gender-specific attributes. --LPfi (talk) 22:42, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

To give gender equality/neutrality any relevance to a tourist, it could be mentioned, that it is quite common in Sweden to see women in "men's jobs" and vice versa. And this certainly has something to do with how children are raised. As an example, I had a visitor from another European country, a craftsman by trade, and he told me that he had never seen a hardware store where all the employees he met were women, and also never had imagined to see a woman driving a forklift. After that we went to another hardware store and the experience was repeated. Perhaps this kind of "disclaimer" with a more hands-on approach would be a better description? Philaweb (talk) 23:00, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

This is the video I was referring to: [2]. Unfortunately, I don't speak Danish or Swedish, so I'm entirely at the mercy of the subtitles. I guess what's important regarding this is whether there is anything that is a non-issue elsewhere that would offend a Swede. Like whether it would be offensive to associate boys with Transformers and girls with Barbie dolls, or even if it is offensive to refer to "boys" and "girls" as such instead of the gender neutral "children". And of course, if people are expected to use a gender neutral pronoun instead of "he" or "she", or even completely removed references to gender in regular conversations, it should be mentioned. The question is, how far along is your average Swede in this gender equality/neutrality thing. The dog2 (talk) 04:16, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Don't you think the tourist has to speak Swedish for "hen" to be relevant? A tourist speaking another language most probably wont notice the difference. Philaweb (talk) 09:44, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

As I said, "hen" is mostly an interesting phenomenon, most Swedes do not use it. I can think of pitfalls where people are used to a consciously neutral language, but not much worse than picking the wrong out of "he" and "she" (which happens to Finns, who do not have the distinction). --LPfi (talk) 10:53, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

The job market is certainly worth mentioning. E.g. having a male nurse and a female doctor could be confusing for some, and some could be offended by not being served by a man in the hardware shop (having the prejudice that the women are non-experts). The risk of offending is probably small, unless you make jokes about the boys playing with dolls or something like that. Most children do watch Cinderella & al. You should probably be aware of the issue if having presents for children in a host family. The Barbie doll is not necessarily that welcome, but will rather be regarded as ignorance than offence ("associating" boys with Transformers and girls with Barbies seems odd, depending on what you mean I suppose it could be offending). The "hen" thing is quite widespread, but e.g. on Wikipedia it is still banned in most contexts as controversial. Using gender neutral wording is certainly appreciated by transgender people, but otherwise not expected. Where the average Swede stands is at least partly a question of age. Most 50 years old probably think the world has become odd, while I'd guess a 20 year old is quite likely to use "hen" regularly. That said, the "gay nanny" thing is old, probably with roots in the 60s. --LPfi (talk) 06:32, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. However, I have experienced that Swedes on workplaces are very concious about whether you, as a customer or client, prefers certain people to be served by. Swedes will most likely get offended if you verbally express this preference. Philaweb (talk) 09:39, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

That applies to every country I've ever been to, not just Sweden. If you, as a customer, refuse to get served by a perfectly competent employee simply because of his/her gender, you'll get a universally unsympathic reaction, regardless where you go. ArticCynda (talk) 10:33, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, even though I did not write "refuse", I wrote "prefer". A preference does not necessarily include refusals. Philaweb (talk) 10:47, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Even in Singapore, which is fairly conservative, it is no longer that uncommon to have female doctors and male nurses. It's just that many of the nurses are not Singaporean and come from the poorer neighbouring countries like the Philippines and Indonesia, since most Singaporean nurse eventually choose to migrate to Australia or the UK, where they are treated with more respect. Similarly, nobody will refuse to be served by a perfectly competent female employee in a hardware store, and neither will people (at least people under 40 or so) insult a woman who drives a forklift if they see one; its just very rare. So unless you're from a very conservative place like maybe Saudi Arabia, these things are not unique to Sweden. But it's true that unlike in Sweden, toys are still marketed towards specific genders, and it would still be considered odd to see a man wearing a dress (but in the case of a woman wearing a suit and tie, it's fairly normal). The dog2 (talk) 15:46, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

You would presume this would show in Swedish chains such as H&M. Still they are criticised for making clothes for small girls smaller than same size boys' clothes, less suited for running and climbing, and for making "sexy" girls' clothes. Gender neutral children's cloths are hard to find, and I have yet to hear advice of going buy them in Sweden. So I suspect that the ideals of gender neutrality have a long way to go (but people wanting gender neutral children's clothing probably shows a difference between the Nordic countries and many other parts of the world). (And although a boy may be allowed to try girls' wear, no "normal" man (non-transgender, non-artist) would dress in women's cloths. There is no movement to break that distinction.) --LPfi (talk) 17:14, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Caution box

I reverted the addition of this cautionbox:

"Communist China has issued a safety alert for its tourists in the country after it said that three tourists had been “brutally abused” by Swedish police on 2 September 2018."

First of all, who calls it "Communist China" anymore? Are we stuck in the 1950s?

More importantly, there is a comment immediately below that has been ignored:

"This is not the place to push a political agenda through claimed crime risks. Warnings for tourists should be put into an international context."

Any Chinese complaint about human rights abuses have no credibility. This is a country that is creating prison camps for Uighurs, is attempting to wipe out the Tibetan culture, and imprisons or murdetlrs anyone who speaks out against the government. Its complaint against Sweden is obviously a political ploy related to the visit of the Dalai Lama, as the Guardian article notes. There is no actual threat to travellers. The Chinese tourists arrived ONE DAY before their reservation and refused to leave, so the hostel staff called the police to have them removed. We don't have to account for stupid people, and Wikivoyage should not be a mouthpiece for a tyrannical regime. (China, as an aside, is an amazing place to visit, with incredible history, culture, and food. And the people are really kind to tourists.) Ground Zero (talk) 14:45, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

A Swedish prosecutor has received a report of police misconduct. He closed the case without indictment. /Yvwv (talk) 15:29, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

A compilation of video clips from the incident. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6touy0 /Yvwv (talk) 15:32, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Regions #5

I'm starting to think that maybe we should restructure the hierarchy by making Scania and Gotland parts of Götaland, thus making Svealand, Götaland and Norrland the only top level regions immediately below the country level.

1. Svealand, Götaland and Norrland are well-established in Swedish geography. The current division is very unorthodox. Nowhere except here is this five-fold division of Sweden used. "Götaland minus Scania and Gotland" is not a very natural region.
2. Svealand, Götaland and Norrland are approximately on par when it comes to attractions (what Norrland lacks in population, they make up for in area), with some 5-7 "Cities"/"Other destinations" listed each. Compared to these, Scania and Gotland play in a lower division, rather on par with the counties listed one step down in the hierarchy.
3. I think that the current division gives a somewhat confusing impression - Scania is part of Götaland, but then it is not? Why is it separate if it isn't? Is Scania listed separately because it is significantly more interesting to travelers than other counties? It does have a Danish heritage, but so do Halland and Blekinge? Dalarna and Jämtland also have strong regional identities? (This final point mainly applies to Scania, as one can more easily understand why Gotland would be listed separately)

All in all, I believe that the traditional threefold division of Sweden would work best. Sure, it is a bit further from the 7 2 ideal, but I don't think users of our guides care about that. I know that Ypsilon, Yvwv and PrinceGloria has been involved in this discussion previously, so I hope that you don't mind me pinging you. MartinJacobson (talk) 14:52, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

That was used until 2013, when I think Yvwv further subdivided Götaland (per comment timestamped 16:40, 27 July 2013) and as you can see the division was amended many times over the next few years. Maybe best to reverse it to the three traditional parts so we don't need to open this can of worms again. Ypsilon (talk) 15:23, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. I would be happy to do the changes myself, but I would need some help as I'm not very competent with Wikivoyage maps. I see that there is an old version of the Götaland map which we could re-use, but someone would have to update the Sweden country map. I see that Saqib created the original map, and that Ypsilon was able to redraw the Götaland map. Could one of you please help fix the map of Sweden? And if possible make sure that all the "cities" and "other destinations" are marked out? A job well done is always rewarded with more labor! MartinJacobson (talk) 09:37, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm afraid all other Wikivoyagers who have the knowledge of static map drawing have left completely (or check in only once every month or so), therefore it's me who will have to do it :P and I don't have as much spare time as I used to. But I'll try to get it done this weekend. Ypsilon (talk) 07:42, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

::::Also, as the cities and other destinations listed in the article can change over time, I don't think it's necessary to list all of them. The dynamic map is better for that purpose (it was a different matter back when the static maps were the only ones available). Actually there are quite many marked out in the central-east of Sweden (the stretch from Vättern to Gävle) relative to for example Norrland so a couple of those could maybe be deleted. --Ypsilon (talk) 08:46, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

As we're now starting to use a more official division, I think the smartest thing to do is to scrap the old static map use a dynamic map for both the markers and the regions. I've seen such a setup in many articles, but I've never done it before (need to spend some time to look at the wikicode and teach myself first). --Ypsilon (talk) 08:59, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Done and interestingly the dynamic map regions from Wikidata were already in the article. --Ypsilon (talk) 09:18, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Snyggt! Thank you! Should I revert the Götaland map to the original version, or is it better to upload it again as a new file? MartinJacobson (talk) 13:52, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Revert, I'd say. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:28, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

The file is in use also on fr and he, so it should not be changed without asking them (or moving the present version to a new name and change their articles to use that). --LPfi (talk) 16:39, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

I see! I started a discussion at the commons file and made notices at the frvoy and hevoy Götaland talk pages. If there are no objections I plunge forward with the revert in a week or two. MartinJacobson (talk) 22:42, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

I'd suggest you do the reverse: unless you get an OK from both (or notice their regions in fact do correspond to the new(=old) map), copy the old version to a new name (with appropriate attribution) and use that, as simply reverting would break their pages. --LPfi (talk) 20:05, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Fire ban

I appreciate the frequent updating of Swedish articles.

When it comes to fire bans, they are changed several times during summer, usually on short notice.

Is there a reliable resource for current fire bans in Sweden? /Yvwv (talk) 12:44, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

SMHI would be a pretty good one, also for various other weather warnings. Ypsilon (talk) 12:57, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

In each countys article there are links to reliable sources within the warning box. SMHI has a useful map, but their map is focused on the weather, not the legality of having a barbeque in the wild. Philaweb (talk) 15:26, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

PS. As you can see from the SMHI map there are fire risks in most of Sweden, but there are only fire bans in three counties, i.e. fire risk is connected to the current weather, where a fire ban is a prohibition on starting an open fire. Philaweb (talk) 15:54, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Then it's different from here in Finland, where the forest fire warning (given for a region, in Lapland, for a municipality at a time) is either in force or not (can't be "partially" in force), and if it's in force it means an unconditional ban on open fire. Formerly the local fire department could grant you special permission to lit a fire while the forest fire ban was on if they deemed it to be safe at some particular place. "Open fire" includes both campfires and disposable grills, anything that is not isolated from the ground and/or allows sparks to escape. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:07, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

There is nothing partial about this in Sweden. It is confusing though since fire bans are regulated by either the county (län) or in some counties by the municipalities (kommun). For instance there are fire bans in 11 of 14 municipalities in Norrbotten county. It can be difficult to find the information on fire bans. In Scania, for instance, it is really confusing if and where there are fire bans, and you need to look at each individual municipality to find out. SMHI only shows what the weather conditions are like. The counties or municipalities decide what is legal or not - and when. Philaweb (talk) 16:28, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I have dug a bit deeper for some more detailed information on this subject. Fire bans are officially issued by the fire emergency services (räddningstjänsten) of either the municipalities or the counties, depending on how they are organised within the county. The Scania Northwest District has fire risk forecasts (brandriskprognos) for 10 municipalities and has issued fire bans (eldningsförbud) for nine of those municipalities. Ergo, fire risk is something different than a fire ban.

There are three fire emergency districts in Scania. I have searched in vain for current information on fire bans on the websites of the Scania South and Scania Southeast districts. Not to mention the fire emergency services of municipalities in the northeastern corner of Scania that do not work as a district. Philaweb (talk) 17:49, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Contactless cards and pin

The article says (in Money):

you may need to know your card's PIN number (check with your bank on how to get a PIN for your card if this isn't the norm in your country) or ensure that it is contactless-ready (most but not all terminals offer this).

Isn't it so, that the cards are programmed to ask for the pin every now and then (when being used contactless), and if you don't know your pin you will be stuck once this has happened? Moreover, big payments, such as for a hotel room, cannot be done without pin. – LPfi (talk) 19:51, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Örebro County vs Västmanland and Närke

For Sweden, the provinces (landskap) and counties (län) have been used interchangeably as regions. Those that cover largely the same territory (Dalarna etc) are a clear case. The provinces might be more useful as they describe the cultural identity; the counties however handle public transportation, and in some cases tourist information. Örebro County is not an apparent region. Would you prefer to use it over the western half of Västmanland and Närke? /Yvwv (talk) 14:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

[...]

Discussion moved to Talk:Örebro County –LPfi (talk) 07:03, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

EU citizens studying in Sweden

Do students from other EU countries have to pay tuition? Studying abroad#Sweden indicates that studying is free for Swedish citizens and that non-EEA citizens need to pay tuition, but doesn't specifically say what the rules are for EU (or EEA) citizens. Sweden#Learn is similarly vague. Can anyone help clarify? —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:05, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

In EU it is forbidden to treat domestic citizens better than other EU nationals (with the possible exception for workforce of new members). So no. They have to be treated as Swedish citizens. Nordic citizens (Norway, Iceland) have the same right regardless of EU, and I believe also Switzerland is treated equally, but I don't know whether it is an EEA requirement. It is allowed to base some rights on residency, but then Swedish living abroad would also be discriminated against, which is not the case --LPfi (talk) 10:45, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, that makes sense. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:46, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

National taxi services

There is a new trend of national taxi services appearing in Nordic countries. They have easy to use smartphone apps which make the order process clear, like Uber. They claim to have near-nationwide coverage or coverage of list of specific cities. What we should do regarding them? I think they would give additional advantage for Wikivoyage users compared to having only phone call numbers of local taxi companies, regarding that many Wikivoyage users do not have English as their first language, and may have trouble pronouncing local language street addresses. So should we include them if they say that they cover specific regions? --Vkem (talk) 00:39, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

See Travellers' pub#National taxi services. I suggest we keep the discussion there, until it is down to national details. –LPfi (talk) 07:00, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

History section

As for many other country articles, the history section tends to be bloated. We should at least avoid to go deep into politics and current events. A more elaborate description of Sweden's political history can be added to Nordic history. /Yvwv (talk) 18:20, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand. The history section is less than a screenful in my rather narrow browser window, and I wouldn't remove any of the history described there (the two last paragraphs are not about history and should go elsewhere).

The section should be copy edited to improve the flow, but that is a separate question.

Is there something you think should be removed? I suppose something about northern Sweden should be added, perhaps with a link to a to-be-written history section in Sami culture (though they did not inhabit all Sweden north of Uppland). There are a few other points I'd like to have included.

–LPfi (talk) 13:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Swedengate

Apparently, there is some trending hashtag #SWEDENGATE on social media now, due to a Swedish custom that foreigners are not familiar with. Apparently, if you happen to be at a friend's house during meal times, it is Swedish custom for your host to not offer you food since they do not wish to upset your meal plans. I wonder if we should mention something about that here. The dog2 (talk) 22:34, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

This was touched on in Talk:Nordic countries#Nordic view of gifts and favours back in 2018. I think "upsetting meal times" is just something made up by somebody who didn't know any background of a practice they felt natural – or even a pretext, when caught with being rude.

I think it is the other way round. I believe for somebody in Iran, not offering a good meal for somebody visiting would feel like making themselves a scoundrel (is that the right word?). In Sweden it is less of a faux pas, and many Swedes don't like to have their plans upset. They might have ingredients for a meal for themselves, not enough for having a good meal for everybody (or too simple for the guest), and not prepared to improvise something more/else from the cupboard. It might just be a confusing situation, as a Swede would leave when the hosts are getting ready for the meal, unless sincerely asked to stay and share it.

Do we say anything about when to leave when having been invited to a Swedish home (or going there for other reasons, such as for returning borrowed equipment)? I don't find anything on that in Respect (nor in Respect of Nordic countries). I think we need to write something.

I don't know Swedish customs particularly well, but I assume they are not too different from what I know from Finland. There is probably also a radical difference between cities in the south and remote countryside.

I believe a new acquaintance would mostly be invited for a specified context: for coffee, for dinner, for a party, whatever. After that, they'd be expected to leave (but not too hurryingly, not to make it seem they don't like the company). Without such a clear invitation they might need more advice. Also romantic contexts are tricky, as their host might want an innocent pretext, hoping it develops into something more.

–LPfi (talk) 07:12, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Inviting yourself to dinner is considered very rude in the U.S. Is it really unusual for a guest not to expect be fed a meal if they weren't specifically invited to lunch, dinner, etc.? Moreover, it's common in many places to bring something if you have been invited for a meal - for example, one or two bottles of wine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:18, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I think it depends very much on context. In the linked thread it was about children who were not supposed to leave, but just to wait, which I find quite horrible. I also think it is normal courtesy to invite guests to the table if they are supposed to stay long enough for it to get relevant (and most people would probably invite them anyway, unless they understand to leave). Are they supposed to go for a pizza to eat at a separate table? Or just eat out and return? Never, I'd say. The rude thing is to turn up at meal time and assume to be served, or overstay what was expected to be a short visit. –LPfi (talk) 07:32, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, it's unimaginable for an American to invite someone to visit and eat dinner in front of them while offering nothing to the guests, and especially children. If you need for your guests to leave, you should look at the time and say something to the adults like: "It's been so much fun hanging out with you! I'm sorry, we just realized what time it is, and we have things we need to get to before it gets to late; I'm sure you'll understand. Thanks again for coming, and let's be in touch again soon!" —The preceding comment was added by Ikan Kekek (talk • contribs)

One context where I'd understand having the children wait: When spending summers at my grandparents' place, the children of the village used to gather at somebody's place and play in the garden or around the house. At meal time, the hosts would eat as normal, while the other children would take care of themselves. Everybody would eat at home, when the meal was served there, and come back to continue playing. This works in a setting where you'd just run home for the meal – and here upsetting meal plans (besides cost and effort) might have been a real issue. The hosts might still at times offer juice and buns, sandwiches or something, to all of us. –LPfi (talk) 08:34, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, the latter case makes sense. Even in Singapore, the norm is to send the kids back home to war with their families unless you have specifically invited them over for dinner. And you most certainly want to ask the kids, parents for permission before giving them food. But asking your children's friends to sit at the dinner table and watch you and your family eat while offering nothing would be considered rude.

Anyway, in light of Swedengate, is there anything people think is worth covering here about the difference between Swedish and American culture when hosting guests? The dog2 (talk) 14:05, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I think differences to the Americas are relatively minor. We watch many of the same films, we read about each other in school, and people spending a year abroad often do so across the pond. There are of course differences, but those to Spain may be as big as to the USA. I suppose Asians (from Iran as well as Japan or Malaysia) could have bigger surprises. There is also the bigger language barrier (compared to USA), making nuances harder to notice.

Perhaps this should be discussed in Nordic countries, with a pointer from this article. I think customs are close enough that any differences can easily be pointed out without harming the flow of the text – and differences inside the countries may be bigger than across countries.

The main point for the "gate" is probably that being invited does not necessarily mean being invited to share a meal, and that the hosts getting ready to eat would be a serious signal that you should say thanks and bye, unless they sincerely ask you to stay. For the Japanese we should say that if you are invited, then you are invited for real. If you ignore it as a courtesy, your acquaintances might think you are not interested (unless you have a good excuse not to come). There might also be problems with understanding what an invitation entails, apart from meals it might be about what you are expected to bring and how much time to reserve, not to get into the issue of clothing.

Then we have the cues about when you should leave, if the invitation doesn't make that clear. I don't know to which extent they are common sense. Have you had experiences of misunderstandings?

An acquaintance of mine was asked out for a walk in the fells by a local (she was studying up north). She assumed it would be an afternoon walk. Wrong, it turned out to be about a few days! They ended up married not too much later.

–LPfi (talk) 15:18, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I've never been so Sweden so I can't comment about Sweden specifically. And I didn't go to anybody's house when I visited Iceland. But I do recall that expectations of customer service from tour guides are very different in Iceland compared to Singapore. For instance, in many Asian countries like say, Japan or Thailand, tour guides will try to accommodate the preferences and needs of their customers within reasonable limits. In Iceland, no attempt whatsoever will be made to adjust the itinerary to accommodate a customer's needs, and what you see on paper is exactly what you get. So basically, if anything is not to your liking, it's your fault for booking that tour without reading everything in detail. The dog2 (talk) 15:33, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't know whether that is related in some way. I think most tour businesses here do their best to cater to customers' needs and preferences, if clearly told, but they might not go to the length they perhaps do in Singapore. I could imagine that the wishes were hard to accommodate; things might be more optimised here, and anything extra might be difficult to arrange. It could also be that the guides talking and smiling less gave a false impression that they weren't interested in the wishes. But yes, it might also be that they weren't interested in changing schedules, and taking upon them all work that that'd entail. I'd need more detail to get a picture of what actually happened (and as I don't really know Iceland, getting that picture might be difficult) –LPfi (talk) 19:31, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Yeah, I've only made a short trip to Iceland once so I can't say for sure that it's Icelandic culture. For someone like me who lived overseas, it was no big deal and I just adapted to the norm in Iceland, but for other people who weren't as exposed to foreign cultures as I am, there was quite a bit of friction with the tour guide from the other people in the group because of differences in expectation of service.

But anyway, we're not here to judge cultures. I merely brought this up in light of the social media controversy in case there are any peculiarities of Swedish culture that might cause misunderstandings for foreigners. The dog2 (talk) 00:13, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Sorry to be late. This issue most likely has something to do with Swedes general trend of avoiding conflicts. Taking responsability of other people's children involves a lot of potential conflicts, especially if the children are from families of a different culture. Even though Swedes are portrayed as being multicultural, this issue confirms the exception to the rule. There is an official Sweden that was created over many years of "public streamlining", and then there is the Sweden of privacy, where most Swedes prefer to be themselves. 2A02:AA1:101D:863:FCEB:F6D9:B8B1:3D35 09:37, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I later noticed that this was big in Sweden itself (are we that bad?). I don't think it is about avoiding conflicts, but somebody should check up on the discussion in Swedish. –LPfi (talk) 09:35, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Since I am per definition not a Swede, I think I have a different benchmark when it comes to conflicts and how to manage them. Swedes are generally speaking shy of conflicts. Swedes were raised to be aware of consensus, even to such a degree that they will circumvent conflicts. Foreigners being aware of this mentality will much easier understand why Swedish people make some really interesting alternative choices that feels akward to other cultures. Just my 2 cents worth. What Swedes think of themselves is perhaps not that helpful to strangers. 2A02:AA1:1624:6234:C02B:5D7B:1F2A:5A35 20:22, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

If you want to understand a custom, I think it makes sense to listen to what they say when they talk about it. It might not be the whole truth, but not listening you might jump to entirely wrong conclusions. –LPfi (talk) 13:42, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, one might want to take it into consideration. It should also be considered that whatever a nation thinks about themselves, it perhaps is not entirely balanced, neutral and without bias. "Truth" is a funny thing, there seems to be more of them depending on whom you ask. 2A02:AA1:1028:F1E9:41C9:6837:6AEB:EA3A 17:28, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Money as a taboo topic

In the "respect" section of this article it is mentioned that: "Money is a taboo topic in Sweden, and many Swedes are more comfortable talking about their sex lives than their personal finances." Even though I have lived in Sweden for almost 20 years, this is not something I have ever noticed. I will argue that for many Swedes the topic of personal finances is not taboo, and my definition of taboo is "something that is socially frown upon". When I speak with Swedes about this topic (and you understand it correctly, I am per definition not a Swede), the core of what seems to be a taboo is actually that many Swedes have little knowledge about finances in general, and most Swedes will never embark on a discussion on "uncharted territories", so to speak. They will certainly not reveal their (knowledge about) personal finances to a perfect stranger, in our case a tourist, and this has little to do with the topic being taboo or not. 2A02:AA1:1624:6234:C02B:5D7B:1F2A:5A35 20:02, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't know how Swedes feel about their finances and how much they know about them, but I assume they are not that different from people here across the Gulf of Bothnia in this respect. Some people shock by their ignorance, but I have seen no correlation between that and willingness to speak about finances. I'd say a financial advisor would be as offended as anyone, perhaps more so, if you asked him about his income. You might be able to do it in a way which gets him to speak relaxedly about it, but not everybody would, and if I had to choose among advising people to avoid politics, religion or personal finances, the last would be the top priority. –LPfi (talk) 13:54, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

And I don't know how it is there across the Gulf of Bothnia, but here in Sweden, the annual tax declaration of individuals is available to the public, so it's quite easy (for the locals, of course) to investigate other Swedes personal finances. I can only agree with your advise about what topics to avoid, but I do still not think that talking about money is taboo (what the quote actually says - "Money is a taboo topic in Sweden"). 2A02:AA1:1028:F1E9:41C9:6837:6AEB:EA3A 17:38, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

PS. Quote: "Some people shock by their ignorance, but I have seen no correlation between that and willingness to speak about finances.", so you agree that talking about money is not taboo? 2A02:AA1:1028:F1E9:41C9:6837:6AEB:EA3A 17:49, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I have not seen those that know about finances much willing to speak about them. I have a number of acquaintancies in such circles. –LPfi (talk) 18:03, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Is this your criteria of "money is a taboo topic in Sweden"? I have had no problems talking with Swedes about personal finances, even people that I have met randomly, which perhaps is more of a situation a tourist would be in. Most of the Swedes I spoke to about finances did not know much about the topic, but they did share whatever knowledge they had. Perhaps we should leave out the word "taboo" and write something like: "Money is a topic not all Swedes are willing to talk about. Many Swedes are more comfortable talking about their sex lives than their personal finances". 2A02:AA1:1028:F1E9:41C9:6837:6AEB:EA3A 19:55, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Stay safe violent crime remarks

This seems unhelpful to me: "If you heed whatever warnings you would do in your own country, you should have no problems." Either such warnings don't have to be specified, or they should be, because people from countries with very low levels of violent crime like Japan and Singapore probably wouldn't deal locally with any warnings about violent crime. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:35, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

The violence that is a big concern in Sweden (and in Finland too, as we tend to follow the same developments), is about vengeance between criminal gangs. The shootings and bombings have been ruthless and wrong persons or bystanders have sometimes been hit. There really isn't much you can do about this, as the violence has spread to random places – it is not restricted to "low-income suburbs on the edge of major cities". On the other hand, the risk of being shot is still much lower than the the risk of being killed in a car accident in most other countries. It is not about a real risk as much as of a feeling of insecurity that hasn't been there in "Folkhemmet" as we used to know it. LPfi (talk) 11:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

The bulk of perpetrators/victims of gang violence in Sweden are immigrants, mainly from Third World countries. They are killed because they are either members of gangs or family to members of gangs. The randomness of the violence is mostly related to topography, i.e. where these people are being assassinated. There has always been gang violence in Sweden. What is new in this surge in violence is the age of the perpetrators, they are all younger than 18, which gives much shorter time to serve when convicted, and the use of explosives. 90.235.18.140 10:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Do you have statistics to prove these assertions? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:56, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

No, but I do consume Swedish media every day (as you can see my IP origins in Sweden). I thought the perception was that Wikivoyage is not Wikipedia, so I am conveying the mainstream view that I am encountering in the country where I live. Edit: After searching for "gang violence in Sweden" I found several articles in English on the topic. 90.233.215.176 19:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

This isn't Wikipedia, but we don't want to assume that accusations against immigrants are true. Here in the U.S., for example, the Republican Party and media associated with it claim that undocumented immigrants commit a disproportionate amount of crimes. Statistics very clearly demonstrate that legal immigrants commit fewer crimes per capita than American citizens, with undocumented immigrants committing way, way fewer. Things could be different in Sweden, but I wouldn't assume so just because people think so and media give that impression. I did a little web searching, though, and it seems like what you said is actually true. Here's a study.Ikan Kekek (talk)

Yes. I think it is well established that immigrants are over-represented in the crime statistics, compared to those not with immigrant background. There are problems with the statistics, such that crime is overrepresented among young men, among those economically disadvantaged etc., groups where immigrants are equally over-represented. This is worth quite some discussion among criminologists and Wikipedians, but I don't see much use discussing the issue at Wikivoyage; your average immigrant bus driver won't rob you. The crime wave is still worth mentioning, despite it not being an issue for most travellers, as many will have heard about it. –LPfi (talk) 08:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, which is why I made it a short comment in the article. The crime wave is worth commenting since tourists might have the impression that shootings in Sweden is the same thing as for instance shootings in the US, where perpetrators start shooting randomly at larger groups of people for selfish or ideological reasons. This is not the case in Sweden. 90.235.13.213 09:35, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Do you think the current wording is sufficient? I don't think we need to get into the immigration policy issues, at least not in Stay safe (and Respect is long enough as is, and immigration a contentious issue in most of Europe). –LPfi (talk) 09:48, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean the wording after you removed my addition? If you would re-read my addition to the article, I did not mention anything about immigration, but anyway you have a tendency of "polishing" the image of Sweden, which is actually quite a Swedish thing to do. I feel quite discouraged in adding anything to Wikivoyage since anything that is slightly not "political correct" will be altered, at least in a Swedish context. 90.233.192.209 13:44, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

User:LPfi is actually not Swedish but a Swedish-speaking Finn. In any case, don't feel discouraged, as there haven't been many people involved in this discussion. Which points do you think are most important to re-add to the article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

"Stay Healthy" and the role of pharmacies

The "Stay Healthy" section contains the following statement: "Many supermarkets carry non-prescription supplies such as band aid and antiseptics.". I was there in May 2024, in small town Sweden (Ystad), scouring a pretty sizable super market for the equivalent of Neosporin, and there was none to be had. When I asked the staff, they told me that stuff would only be carried in pharmacies - which contradicts what the page currently says. What is the experience of other travellers / locals? Is it time to update the page or was my experience a one-off? Marvin The Paranoid (talk) 17:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

"Supplies such as band aid and antiseptics". And those could be found, couldn't they? I suppose that it's the same as in Finland: actual medicines must be bought from pharmacies. I agree, though, that that should be spelled out explicitly. I reworded now, but some Swede should check my wording and amend it as needed. –LPfi (talk) 18:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

w:Neomycin/polymyxin B/bacitracin, where w:Neosporin redirects, says "In the US, the only large market for the ointment, it may increase antibiotic resistance". If there is such a risk, prescription is usually required over here. The antiseptics that you can find in supermarkets are usually based on alcohol (I don't know whether iodine-based ones are sold outside pharmacies). –LPfi (talk) 18:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia in Finnish says that use of Neomycin is limited because of its comparably severe toxicity, which affects especially the hearing and the liver. I think the USA is a bit crazy when it comes to medication, as are India and some other countries as well, of course. We should perhaps have stronger wordings on the theme "medications that are sold over the counter at home may need a prescription abroad, or even be banned there". Then, of course, "the equivalent" should be easily found in a pharmacy, in the sense of "an ointment to use on a scratch to prevent infections". –LPfi (talk) 18:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. Neosporin is indeed commonly used by parents in the US for applying to cuts and scrapes of little kids. It is available everywhere. I have seen it in the small stores attached to gas stations in small, rural towns. Because of that, no-one thinks twice about using it.

To answer your earlier question, band aids, and alcohol (disinfectant) were there. Antiseptics were not. Don't recall seeing any Iodine based ones either. Marvin The Paranoid (talk) 09:33, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Over here we often use a mixture of bacitracin and neomycin (or at least used when I was a kid) for scrapes, but yes, you have to go to a pharmacy for that. I suppose that the point is that if you have any question, you get a knowledgable answer right away, while in a supermarket you would hesitate to try to find any staff, and they wouldn't know anyway. –LPfi (talk) 10:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)