Talk:Amsterdam/Archive 2003-2023

Time sensitive information

It would seem to me that a great advantage of a WikiVoyage over any other travel guide is that WikiVoyage can be as up-to-date as possible. But how do I weave time sensitive information into a general article such as this one? For instance, it might be interesting to know that Amsterdam is building a new subway system, and that certain parts of town are less easily accessible than is usual. ---Branko

-:Branko: it'd probably be a great thing to put in the top part of "Get around", since it's really a getting-around-locally question. Sound reasonable? --(WT-en) Evan 20:16, 9 Dec 2003 (PST)

-or a section for "travel advisories" that are valid for a finite time period, for instance Athens during the Olympics, or Amsterdam from now until the estimated subway system completion date. Can the wiki be set up to automatically remove or archive expired travel avisories (for convenience and clarity)?

Link to Virtual travel through Amsterdam?

What you think about a link to this page? It shows Amsterdam on Google-Maps, with user-selected photos from the highlights of Amsterdam projected on map. It is perfect for a virtual tour through the city.

My suggestion: put a link under 'Do', for example "Visit Amsterdam [1], a virtual tour through the city". I think this link would give value for people who want to visit Amsterdam. What do you think? (WT-en) RonaldR 07:06, 6 November 2007 (EST)

Sorry, we have rather strict External links policies, so that would not be appropriate. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:36, 6 November 2007 (EST)

Add 'Prostitutes' to the "Do" list

They're one of A-Dam's biggest draws and certainly a popular pass-time among many tourists.

-Jackmont Dec 26, 2006

Biking in Amsterdam

We might want to put all biking information together in one paragraph, since now you can find info about biking at least 3 different paragraphs: - On foot and bike - Do - Stay safe --(WT-en) bartvanslobbe

Well done

I don't know if it's okay to put 'welldones' on the talk pages, but I don't know where else to say it! This page is fantastic, very informative, exactly what a good guide should be. Thankyou!

The best way to say you love a page is to propose it on Project:Destination of the Month candidates. April in Amsterdam, anyone? (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:36, 5 Mar 2005 (EST)

Sombody added this link

Maybe some Wikivoyageer passing through Amsterdam could check this out. I don't know if it should get its own article here or just a long paragraph in the Get Out section, as usual it depends on having places to sleep.

De Zaanse Schans.

-- (WT-en) Mark 09:46, 22 Apr 2005 (EDT)

Strippenkaart

Is the strippenkaart really allowed to use for the NS trains in Amsterdam??? There are not many trains within Amsterdam... and I also never heard of this before. The NS website doesn't mention this.

It's only on some routes (complements the metro system), There is a page on the NS site (Dutch) listing the line sections for Amsterdam and other cities.. Go to www.ns.nl, choose 'nederland' at the top, Then 'Kaartjes' in the blue horizontal navbar. Now in the yellow navbar on ther left choose 'Kaartsooten' and then 'Speciale treinkaartjes'. Scroll down through the list in the main page and select 'Strippenkaart en Sterabonnement'. Easy..not!

The URL I see is: http://www.ns.nl/serhvlet/Satellite?cid=1076057854926&pagename=www.ns.nl%2FArtikel%2FOverig_www.ns.nl&p=1075382368841&lang=nl&c=Artikel but I have no confidence that this will continue to work.

-- (WT-en) EasyTarget 18:46, 18 May 2005 (EDT)

Yes you can travel with a strippenkaart on any NS train within the Amsterdam Boundaries (as long as you have enough "zones"). I am quite sure about this as I often do it myself to get from the amsterdam burbs to the inner city. (WT-en) Hraicom 05:39, 14 December 2006 (EST)

Hello all, I live close to the RAI Congress Centre and Schiphol, in the south of Amsterdam. The usage of trains is only valid here in Amsterdam, and maybe in the other great cities as well. The Hague, Utrecht, Rotterdam. The zonerule sounds good enough to try it out anywhere.

The thing here in Amsterdam is, the strippenkaart is NOT VALID from September 2009, for the use of a chipcard will be the only valid transportation payment, habitants can choose to take one with their own identity and usefull for other information as well. But it will also be possible to use an anonimous prepaid card.

HOW TO use this new card. 1.Hold the card in front of the reader and slice it gently. 2. Walk through the opening gates. This far quite simple.. though watch it, a lot of people, say 10% forgets to chip out.. Probably getting out is swifter than getting in. So do not forget. After leaving your destination, slice the reader as subtle again, and the trip expenses will be taken of the card.

In Rotterdam this has been going on for a while, and the test is going to be nationwide now. So in the long run, you need only this card, to travel any public form of transportation, if it is the ferry, train, metro, trolly(arhnem), bus, interliners(regional bus transport) or trams, all on one card.

The other uses of this card are non familiar with me uhmm http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/ if you have a digital photo, you can sent it to have a personal pass, might be a new legal identification. Now only driving-license and passport are approved.

greetings from amsterdam, come visit :) need a hangout in the middle of the night at the airport? contact me

Hotel Krasnapolsky

Does anyone else actually have first hand experience with Krasnapolsky? I stayed there a couple of years ago and was not impressed. The location is great of course, but I had to wait a long time to get the room, service was generally slow, our room and the whole non-smoking floor was stinking from cannabis smoking. That is why I did not put it on Wikivoyage, but maybe it was just a bad day? --(WT-en) elgaard 08:25, 2 Nov 2005 (EST)

Must have been a bad day, although if you were visiting during the height of the season, I can understand. The Kras is a five star luxury hotel that starts at $275 per night. If it could happen at the Kras, it could happen at any of the luxury venues. However, one must remember that pot smoking in the Netherlands is still actually illegal, though highly tolerated.(WT-en) Seth1066 23:59, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Stay safe: begging

In the "stay safe" section, it says: "Also ignore beggars since they can be quite rude and giving them money is not allowed." I find this remark quite rude itself; beggars include many a homeless person, who survives this way. But perhaps more relevantly, the assertion that it "is not allowed" to give them money strikes me as very odd and most probably simply incorrect. I've never heard of this. The "Algemene Plaatselijke Verordening" of the city of Amsterdam (http://biodata.asp4all.nl/centralestad/2006/2796/2796.html) does note that begging itself is forbidden, but that doesn't mean that _giving_ a beggar money is forbidden. --(WT-en) Joost 19:11, 22 January 2006 (GMT)

Perhaps the difficult distinction can be made between junkies and real homeless people. Junkies use most of the money they get to buy drugs, they are usually also involved in theft, and worse robbery. Homeless people usually aren't criminal in the sense that their crimes (begging, sleeping outside) are victimless crimes. In general junkies are very thin, they walk with a limp, and are often a lot more in your face, and often unfortunately from a specific ethnic group which you'll learn to spot soon enough when you're there. Real homeless people look as they do everywhere in the west, often with beard and carrying lots of bags, etc. Actually I think I'll put some of this in the safety section. --(WT-en) PeterW

For User 24.161.100.255

It looks a bit weird if an article talks about something and then suddenly contains a statement stating that the preceding or following sentence is not right in some way. If you feel you know better then just go ahead and change the text.

Concerning the smartshops, I used to work for an organisation called Unity who work issues to do with drugs and youth, for them I went around visiting smartshops and quizzing them on their knowledge of things like the MAO (Mono Amino Oxidase) inhibitors they were selling. I found for instance that only in CD did they have accurate information on the real dangers involved with these substances when consumed within 24 hours of also consuming ubiquitous things as aged cheese and red wine. Furthermore CD is the oldest smartshop in the world, having actually invented the entire concept 'smartshop' in '94, they really are the most professional about selling these sometimes risky products. PeterW 12:47, 1 April 2006 (EST)

They don't "claim to" do this honestly and responsibly anywhere, they just do. I've seen other shops sellling products which can be seriously toxic, like the MAO inhibitors mentioned above, firstly without knowing what the hell they were talking about and secondly without any kind of warning. In CD I've seen irresponsible first-timers return completely distraught because they're under the influence and being taken care of, I'm certain any other shop would send them away and tell them to go to a hospital.

What about the touristic card "I amsterdam"?

Do you think it's worthy? [2]. From the website Amsterdam.info: "The Amsterdam card is your entrance ticket to a long list of Amsterdam museums, city's attractions and all buses, trams and metro in Amsterdam. Please note, train tickets to and from the airport are not included in the product." It costs EUR 33 for 24 hours, EUR 43 for 48h and EUR 53 for 72h. I think it would be good to include a section about this pass. I am staying in Amsterdam for one week, and I decided to buy the Museemkart instead, so that I can go to the museums without rushing to see everything in 48hs - and also to force myself to come back at some point in the summer, as the museum card is valid for one year. -- 07:32, 29 December 2006 (EST)

Linkspamming in the Hotel section

Hotel website easytobook . com frequently abuses the hotel section for linkspamming.

I have just removed their links to the krasnapolsky and Victoria hotel.

Thanks! I accidentally rolled back your change; the official links looked a lot less plausible than the third-party ones. Anyways, they're currently pointing to the official ones. --(WT-en) Evan 09:34, 11 January 2007 (EST)

Camping

Why no information regarding camping in the Amsterdam area?

You don't want to camp there. There's nowhere for it.

--there's many camping areas very close to the city, less than 20 minutes on the tram, they should perhaps be included

Coffeeshops

Why is there no section for coffeeshops as there is for places to drink and eat. Would that screw up the overall format?

Yes it would. The idea is that the general outline should be consistent with all of the other articles, and the subject of coffeeshops is pretty well covered without resorting to breaking the outline. -- (WT-en) Mark 03:49, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

I have added Kam Yin Restaurant because I have been there yesterday.

On a separate note(different user, not sure if I should have started a separate category here), I removed the erroneous statement "Also note that smoking cannabis is regulated under the non-smoking act, meaning that it is allowed only in a closed area where no personnel is working." only to find that it had been restored. I once again deleted it and provided an explanation since it is a fairly confusing issue.

Wrong Formatting on Hotel Section

Noticed that there is bad formatting on most of the hotel links. For example:

• Amsterdam budget hotel the Crown between Red Light District and CS.. [3] [4]

When I get time I will convert them into correct sleep format, if anyone else wants to help? (WT-en) Travelempire 10:19, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

Huge City? Districts proposal

It's always seemed to me Amsterdam deserves the 'Huge City' status.

Howhttp://files.wikivoyage.org/mw/skins/common/images/button_bold.png do others feel? —The preceding comment was added by 147.188.131.34 (talk • contribs)

There is enough content here, and Amsterdam is a large enough city, where districts could make sense. Do you have a proposal in mind? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 16:38, 15 May 2009 (EDT)

I suggest splitting into Central (within the canals or the 'grachtengordel'), between Central and the ring (red line on this picture [5]) and outlying. --(WT-en) Babbelas 09:08, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I think it's useless, there is not much to do outside of the center. The way Amsterdammers devide Amsterdam is along it's (future) political lines, which is a combination of certain neighborhoods:

• Center
• West (Westerpark, Oud-West, De Baarsjes, Bos en Lommer)
• New West (Geuzenveld-Slotermeer, Slotervaart, Osdorp and eventually Westpoort)
• South (Oud-Zuid, Zuideramstel)
• East (Oost-Watergraafsmeer, Zeeburg)
• North
• Southeast

But it's not very useful as tourists should only go to the center district. New West and Southeast should even be strictly avoided as they are unsafe areas. North and East are utterly boring, while only South and maybe West could be of limited interest (South for the Albert Cuyp Markt and Museum Square, West for the Vondelpark). (WT-en) Globe-trotter 13:20, 10 November 2009 (EST)

Useless might be a bit rough on the city ;) The main thing is that we should be covering all areas of the city (since the basic Wikivoyage philosophy is that we shouldn't have gaps in our coverage of the world). If South & West are worth covering, perhaps it would make sense to group them in the Outlying areas article? That way, content on those areas, which probably will only appeal to either long-term and adventurous travelers, or to travelers staying there for some reason (family, dormitories, etc.), will be easily available, and won't bog down the Central article, and waste the time of the average traveler who only wants to see that area? Three districts for a city of 1.25 million doesn't sound like it would spread content too thin, and if we get more info, we could consider subdividing further.

That's all I'll add, though, since I don't know anything of the city... outside the center ;) --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 20:58, 30 November 2009 (EST)

I agree they should be included somewhere, but I think subdividing is only useful if we split up the Central article (just like London). Because that's where pretty much all the sights are. Then we could combine these articles with the surrounding areas to make sure that there are no gaps. (WT-en) Globe-trotter

I made a subdivision which I think makes a lot of sense for travelers. Before I wasn't happy with the 'outer districts' idea, but we have to cover all of Amsterdam, so I still think it's the best solution to have it. I propose the following district division, of course I want your comments, and its still open for debate:

• Old Center. Obviously the most important part of Amsterdam. If it's too big, we could also divide this district by the black line I drew, which would form the districts New Side (Dam Square) and Old Side (Nieuwmarkt-Red Light District).

• Canal Belt. The Dutch call this area the Grachtengordel, maybe we could use that name, or we could call it the Canal Ring. Anyway, it's an easy-defined district, as the very-rich live here. As the black line on the map shows, it could be divided into a Western Canal Belt and a Southern Canal Belt, but I don't think that's necessary really.

• Jordaan. Again, a logical district and very well-known. Used to be a very poor area, but a lot of gentrification happened in the area and now it's quite hip (a bit like The Village in Manhattan).

• Plantage. A bit less-interesting neighborhood, but should definitely be there. I'd like some comments whether the Old Jewish Quarter should be added to this, or if that area should stay in the Old Center. Also the Oosterpark could be added to it to form Plantage-Oosterpark, but culturally/historically that wouldn't make sense. That would only be for the sake of adding the Tropenmuseum and Oosterpark as they're a bit popular.

• Old South. This is a combined district. The Museum Quarter is a rich area with the Vondelpark and PC Hooftstraat, while "De Pijp" is a typical folk lower-class area. They together form the official Old South political district. They can also be 2 separate districts, but I don't want too many districts for Amsterdam, thats why I think they can be combined. The name is hard. Old South is a bit bland, maybe Museum Quarter-De Pijp? Problem is that a part of the neighborhoods I want to include are actually called "New South", but the general term "South" covers a whole wider area, so that doesn't work either.

• Outer districts. The rest of Amsterdam, including North, New West, Old West, Westpoort, Zuideramstel, East, Zeeburg and South East.

Suggestions and comments please :) (WT-en) Globe-trotter 17:44, 8 December 2009 (EST)

Looks good, though, I've always thought a district ringing the entire town in one article is a poor solution, they are hard to write, and hard to follow for people using the guide. How about breaking that one up into North and South of Ij? Surely if Copenhagen can carry Northern suburbs and Southern suburbs guides, so can Amsterdam. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 13:05, 11 December 2009 (EST)

I agree it's hard to write an article like that. But the IJ is a pretty bad marking line as most of the outer districts are south of IJ. That's why I made an Amsterdam Proposal 2, see the map on the right. North, West and East-South East all broken down into separate districts.

• North is divided into Urban North (west of black line) and Rural North (east of black line), I guess we can combine them, though their character is strikingly different.
• West is a huge area, but the large New West area should be avoided. The other neighborhoods can be interesting though, but still for adventurous travellers.
• East-South East is the one I'm least happy with.. South East generally should be avoided (except for the center around Amsterdam ArenA and Heineken Music Hall, which is a good area), East is interesting for adventurous travellers around the Oosterpark. Yet, I'm not really happy with combining these areas, as they are physically separate and quite different too. But making a specific South East article also doesn't seem rewarding, generally there's not that much to do there and most of it is best avoided.

To fix the problem of the 2 "islands", we could also combine Plantage and East into a Plantage-Oosterpark area, as I did in Proposal 3. It works, but one problem: we'd need to create a South East article, which probably wouldnt be a very nice one. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 12:47, 13 December 2009 (EST)

I really hope someone could join the discussion. That much knowledge of Amsterdam is not even required, I'm more wondering whether it's possible to have one district with two "islands" or if that's weird. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 16:28, 16 December 2009 (EST)

It's a tough question. To clarify, in what article would the area between East and Southeast be covered, given that it is not part of the municipality? As for joining the islands of Plantage-Oosterpark, I think that is perfectly fine.

Wish I could help out more with the nitty-gritty, but my dazed, sleepless 15 hour ramble through the city between a flight from NYC and a flight to Tbilisi did not lend to a good understanding of city geography! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 01:36, 17 December 2009 (EST)

Thanks for the reply! And I totally understand about the flight :P The area between East and South East would be covered in Diemen and Duivendrecht, two separate towns with a different municipality. I feel most for Proposal 3, though I don't know about the South East article. Most of Diemen is quite similar to South East though, maybe a combination of Diemen-South East would be an option... Though I don't know if people from Diemen would appreciate that, as officially it's not part of Amsterdam. But Diemen is not very travellers-oriented, and its very similar to South East. And it has Amsterdam around it, maybe traveller-wise it'd be more logical to add it to Amsterdam. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 03:41, 17 December 2009 (EST)

Districts Map

OK, I drew a district map of Amsterdam. I added the Haarlem Neighborhood to the Jordaan area, in soul and character it is pretty close to it with the little boutiques and restaurants (though its officially not a part of it). I'm happy with these districts, except for Plantage-Oosterpark. I feel like Plantage could easily sustain a separate district article. It also has a different history than East, as Plantage was a rich leafy area built in 16th century, while East are suburbs from the 19th century. Maybe we could give Plantage it's own article, or maybe even combine it as Plantage-Old Jewish Quarter. Then East would be a separate district (including Oosterpark). For now I got this:

• Old Center
• Grachtengordel
• Jordaan
• Plantage-Oosterpark
• Museum Quarter-South
• West
• North
• Bijlmer

(WT-en) Globe-trotter 08:53, 17 December 2009 (EST)

I think you (or someone else) should think about a way to mark Diemen and Duivendrecht, otherwise I think people not familiar with Amsterdam will be confused. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 09:22, 17 December 2009 (EST)

I put some titles on the map now, but it's still not really clear. Maybe there should be a district Amsterdam/Diemen-Duivendrecht? I know it's not the same municipality, but maybe it makes sense for travellers (who will have to travel through it by metro to reach Bijlmer. Duivendrecht is in the same municipality as Ouderkerk aan de Amstel, but they are remarkably different. Duivendrecht is an urban suburb of Amsterdam, Ouderkerk is a rural village. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 11:50, 17 December 2009 (EST)

I think many huge cities span multiple municipalities, The Copenhagen guide spans almost 20. Travellers don't really care about municipal borders I would venture.

If you are willing to put the work in to get those districts up to usable over a couple of months, I have nothing but encouragement. But otherwise a Bijlmer, Diemen and Duivendrech (East?) district might be a more sensible approach to limit the work load. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 12:47, 17 December 2009 (EST)

Problem is that Duivendrecht has quite a different soul than Bijlmer. The same could be said of North and Central Diemen, though South Diemen is quite equal to Bijlmer. These towns are separate municipalities because they have a historic nature. Duivendrecht is one of the oldest towns of the Amsterdam-Amstelland area, and most of it is rural [6]. Travellers to Duivendrecht and Diemen will see old farms [7], houses [8], "Fortress" Diemerdam [9], etc., while travellers to Bijlmer will see an enormous urban high-rise district [10]. I agree that we should try to keep the districts limited though, that's why I was happy we wouldn't have to include these in Amsterdam... If we'd have to include them somewhere, obviously Bijlmer would be the choice. And it's have to be renamed South East (Diemen and Duivendrecht are not part of Amsterdam South East, but this covers the region better than Bijlmer). I'm not so well-known in Diemen and Duivendrecht, but I know a lot about Bijlmer. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 13:40, 17 December 2009 (EST)

After the comments, I got this now. Merged all of East, Bijlmer (South East), Duivendrecht and Diemen into a large East district:

• Old Center
• Grachtengordel
• Jordaan
• Plantage-Oosterpark
• Museum Quarter-South
• West
• North
• East (including East, Duivendrecht, Diemen and Bijlmer)

(WT-en) Globe-trotter 10:58, 19 December 2009 (EST)

There is a reason for that gap in the map of Amsterdam (The Dutch short her as A'dam, so I will do too.) and Diemen/Duivendrecht not to include in A'dam. In the second half of the last century A'dam wanted to build a hole new suburb. It could not be done on her own ground, so a hole new suburb rose behind Diemen and Duivendrecht at some distance of the city's borders. Diemen and Duivendrecht are not part of A'dam. (WT-en) Rein N. 12:08, 19 December 2009 (EST)

I know Diemen and Duivendrecht are officially not in Amsterdam, but they could be seen as part of the Greater Amsterdam area. No traveller would see the difference when crossing from Amsterdam into Duivendrecht, and the only way to get into Amsterdam Bijlmer is by taking the metro through Duivendrecht. All are modern urban areas. But I agree, this is a complicated matter, as officially they are not a part of it, and I know most Dutch people (notably those from Duivendrecht and Diemen) would not appreciate this move, keeping in mind the separate identity these towns have. I'm also starting to feel more for excluding Duivendrecht and Diemen, and following the "island" approach as I had proposed before. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 12:18, 19 December 2009 (EST)

The same applies to Amstelveen. Where I live The Hague, you will get the same problems with Voorburg en Rijswijk. At the anther side people from Scheveningen and Loosduinen do not conciser themselves as Hagenezen. --(WT-en) Rein N. 15:23, 19 December 2009 (EST)

Amstelveen is indeed also a suburb of Amsterdam, and a separate municipality, but Duivendrecht and Diemen physically separate Amsterdam Bijlmer from the rest of Amsterdam, creating an "island" of Amsterdam Bijlmer. But I think we just have to go with the "island", and explain it in the description of Amsterdam Bijlmer. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 16:21, 19 December 2009 (EST)

OK, I again changed the districts map. After all I think it's impossible to create less than 5 articles for Amsterdam's suburbs (South, West, North, East and Southeast). South clearly deserves an article, it's one of the most-visited areas of Amsterdam. West is all west of it, while North is all north of river IJ. Then we got East and Southeast, both which require a separate article as they are physically separated. It seems like overkill maybe, but I don't see how else we could split up the suburbs.

• Old Center
• Grachtengordel
• Jordaan
• Plantage
• South
• West
• North
• East
• Bijlmer

(WT-en) Globe-trotter 17:07, 19 December 2009 (EST)

Maybe we could combine South and East? To limit the amount of districts... I know it's a bit weird, but now we have quite a lot of suburb districts. Though I think South can easily sustain it's own article, East will be a lot tougher. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 09:55, 21 December 2009 (EST)

I'm also not sure about the Rural North. I think we should give it a separate article Ransdorp and place it under the Zaanstreek-Waterland. It doesn't make sense to include it in Amsterdam, it's nothing like it. The problem is that then there's nothing left for Amsterdam/North as the suburbs there are awfully boring. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 10:44, 27 December 2009 (EST)

I don't understand why the Western Islands are with West. Just the fact that they are part of stadsdeel West doesn't make them irrelevant! The Western Islands, the Jordaan and the Grachtengordel should definitely be one. They're all from the same time period, same plan, and all have the same vibe. No reason to split them up. --(WT-en) Looskuh 02:25, 21 August 2010 (EDT)

I agree it's a bit weird. The Western Islands are actually a part of Centrum, so we could include them in Jordaan. I do think Grachtengordel and Jordaan should be separate — the Jordaan traditionally is a working class area, while the Grachtengordel is probably the wealthiest neighborhood of the Netherlands. Sure, Jordaan has gentrified, but it still is very different in nature.

I do think we could use less districts, but I don't know how to achieve it. Maybe we could combine Grachtengordel and Plantage, but they are quite different as well (though united as a UNESCO World Heritage Site). I'd rather reduce the number of outer districts, but I don't know how to reduce them. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 11:05, 23 August 2010 (EDT)

Discussion II

Proposed districts of Amsterdam

The problem with Amsterdam is the amount of districts -- ideally we'd have only like 5 of them. I've been thinking how to reduce the number of suburbian districts, as now we have too many of them that will never be able to be filled with enough content. I've been thinking: which neighborhoods do tourists generally visit? Easy question, they are the Old Centre, Canal Belt, Jordaan, Museum Quarter and Plantage. As said before, we could combine Jordaan and the Canal Belt, which leads to 4 districts. Then we could add the surrounding neighborhoods into these common districts (I suggest we add everything east of the river Amstel under Plantage and everything west of the river Amstel under South). That only leaves the North left, which should be its own article as it is physically separated. That makes the following five districts:

• Old Centre
• Canal Belt-Jordaan
• Plantage
• Museum Quarter
• North

I've also included a map to show the divisions. What do you think of this district division? And about the names? The current names are recognizable to the traveler, but not totally correct politically. Maybe we could use the names West of Amstel and East of Amstel instead? Although they are not in common use. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 15:36, 20 July 2011 (EDT)

The problem with this is that Plantage and Museum Quarter will then include suburbs very far from the centre implying that name and content of these districts do not match and that these districts will cover much more than what would be expected by the traveler. How about combining all other suburbs than North into one districts increasing the number to six, but ensuring that the well known tourist districts will have borders as expected?, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 17:39, 20 July 2011 (EDT)

Merging all suburbs into one is draconian, as there are gigantic cultural/economic differences between them. It would be impossible to map the area without a big gap in the centre and I don't even want to think about writing a "Get in" section for it. So I don't think that is the way to go. I guess we should just keep the current district structure, as I don't see any other ways of limiting the districts. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 22:38, 12 August 2011 (EDT)

Pay phones

I think we should remove the whole section about pay phones. They are increasingly hard to find, and even if one is found, it still requires the KPN phone booth card (which is, again, hard to find). It's way easier to just call from your hotel, or to buy a sim card from a telephone store. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 12:04, 9 January 2010 (EST)

Buy

Am interested in visiting for first time. Noted under "Buy" no discussion of currency conversion & access to cash. It it so standard for Europe that no coverage is needed? —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Hennejohn (talk • contribs)

Guess it could be covered, But I'll leave that to someone else who knows the city better - until then I can assure you that you are not going to have any trouble within the EU, all ATM's takes all major international debit and credit cards, and banks and exchange offices change nearly any currency on the planet (Europe has the planets largest diaspora due to it's colonial ties with virtually the entire world). And in particular with the Netherlands and Scandinavia, where everyone speaks near fluent English, you are really not going to have any problems. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 19:44, 19 January 2010 (EST)

Couldn't explain it better than Sertmann, and I live here. You might also want to check out the buy section of the Netherlands article, and even the Europe article (as the currency of the Netherlands is the euro). --(WT-en) globe-trotter 20:49, 19 January 2010 (EST)

I don't 'feel' this article.

I've lived in Amsterdam for many years, and I don't understand why this article is so afraid to send people outside Centrum, De Pijp and the Museumplein. Shouldn't wikivoyage be a guide that combines accurate historical information with local's best picks? Besides, the tone is so uptight. Let's loosen up and try to sell our city from our own passion for it! Not because we think we have to write the same stuff that travel guides tell! --(WT-en) Looskuh 02:30, 21 August 2010 (EDT)

Centrum, De Pijp and the Museumplein are the obvious tourist regions, so it's logical the travel guide would send visitors there first. The other regions have bad coverage, because we have just created these regions a few months ago, so they are still in development (and as less visitors go there, it will probably take a while to develop). I'd say plunge forward and make some good additions to the other neighborhoods! --(WT-en) globe-trotter 05:18, 21 August 2010 (EDT)

Publications

I'm moving this section of the Amsterdam article here, as I can't see how it is not in violation of xl, but undoubtedly, some of these links are useful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:24, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

• iannsterdam [11]. Your Little Black -Amsterdam- Book with the best addresses of restaurants, bars, shops and events in town.

• Time Out Amsterdam [12]. The monthly bible for what is going on in town. For purchase everywhere

• Mijn NL [13]. A free bi-weekly magazine which lists all events happening in Amsterdam. The section is divided into Music, Night(clubs, DJs), Gay, Comedy, Cabaret, Stage, Festival, Musical, Dance, Expositions, Children, and also Movie listings. It can be picked up at any Albert Heijn supermarket, and many venues. Covers more events than Uitkrant and Amsterdam Weekly. Although written in Dutch, it would be easy to understand the basic idea. Also provides suggestions on bars, restaurants, shops and hair dressers. Check out the online edition.

• UnderwaterAmsterdam. An online English-language guide to the Dutch capital which evolved from the free magazine Shark. It has an extraordinary number of daily events for English speakers – music, parties, theatre, opera, queer etc – plus annual events and upcoming gigs. It posts the latest gigs as they're announced by via Twitter. Written by an experienced travel writer, it also features a city guide – with the best places to visit in town – plus daily news and horoscopes (written by celebrity astrologer Bridgett Walther) . [14]

• Uitkrant. A free monthly magazine, listing all concerts, classical, jazz, pop etc., exhibitions, museums and anything cultural to do in Amsterdam. It can be picked up at many spots in the city, e.g. at the Uitburo at the Leidseplein.

• Amsterdam Spoke. An English magazine featuring Amsterdam’s daily life, its ambiance and trends.[15]

• Amsterdam City Blog. An English language blog with news and information about what's going on in Amsterdam for tourists visiting the city. [16]

Most of these are fine, I think. The blog and iannsterdam probably aren't OK, but I'd move everything else back into the article a la Chicago#Publications. Most of our star articles do have this sort of section in Cope. --Peter ^Talk 09:09, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Peter, please explain the policy. How are any of them OK under xl, and if some of them are, what criteria need to be used? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:18, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

These links are primary links, not secondary ones. Star articles have sections like these, so I suggest to place it back in the article. Globe-trotter (talk) 18:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Guides and listings are considered primary sources now? Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:12, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

It is when the listing is the publication itself, but not when they're used to describe a restaurant, bar or hotel. Globe-trotter (talk) 22:18, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm confused. From external links#what not to link to, it is not OK to link to:

Nightlife guides and reviews in nightlife guides

Restaurant guides and reviews in restaurant guides

Other travel guides

Is your contention that while it's not OK to link to any such sources, it's OK to list them? Isn't that quite similar to including an "External links" section, which is also prohibited, right in the first paragraph of the external links policy page? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

The "What not to link to" clearly refers to secondary sources, not primary ones. Wikivoyage:Where you can stick it states we can list magazines, newspapers, etc in the Cope section. When a newspaper is a listing, the primary source is the official website of that newspaper. So that's allowed. If a newspaper site writes an article about a restaurant, and we link to that article in a restaurant listing, that would not be allowed. Globe-trotter (talk) 04:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, now that I think I understand the policy, I believe it needs to be clarified on the external links policy page. In any case, I would like to hear from Peter (and, preferably, other people) about whether all these listings, online and offline, would serve properly as primary sources under the spirit if not letter of the external links policy, so that a consensus can be formed before action is taken. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:12, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Article damaged by immodest content

Swept in from the pub

I am writing now the article about Amsterdam in the hebrew wikivoyage, and I have noticed that the paragraph about the museums was damaged by immodest content:

"Amsterdam has an amazing collection of museums, ranging from masterpieces of art to porn, vodka and cannabis" ?!

for the attention of you...

בנימין (talk) 07:16, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

First, this discussion does not belong here, but on the talk page for that article in the Hebrew version.

Second, there actually is an Erotic Art Museum [17] in A'dam, so I'd say we should obviously list it. The loaded term "porn" should go, however.

The applicable policy is Wikivoyage:Sex tourism policy. Pashley (talk) 07:39, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

There's also Sex Museum [18] with a collection of pornographic images. Jjtk (talk) 08:00, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I saw that at the english version. And I don't think that the first thing that people want to see about museums in a city is about immodest stuff. בנימין (talk) 12:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Let's be honest - cannabis culture and a liberal attitude toward sex are some of the main things Amsterdam is known for. So, to reiterate what previous commenters have said: with the exception of listings that violate our sex tourism policy or our policy on illegal activities, all the noteworthy features of any destination should be mentioned without prejudice as to whether some might consider them "immodest". Policing travelers' personal moral choices is not one of Wikivoyage's goals; anyone who is offended by an Erotic Art Museum or a Sex Museum is free to simply not visit them. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:25, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I see no reason why this should be left out - where I would be concerned would be including detailed pictures of what is inside those places. --Rschen7754 05:43, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

The article contains no such pictures. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:49, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it's just a hypothetical. --Rschen7754 07:09, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

North South Metro Line

The mentioned line opened yesterday or something. Can we update the map(s) and prose, please? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:46, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

The line should be added yes, please plunge forward Hobbitschuster. ArticCynda (talk) 12:16, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Alternative banner for this article?

Banner currently used in this article

Suggested new alternative banner

I created a new alternative banner for this article (I initially created it first and foremost so that it would be used at the top of the parallel article in the Hebrew edition of Wikivoyage, yet I later decided to also suggest that the English Wikivoyage community would consider using it here as well). So, which banner do you prefer having at the top of this article? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 08:28, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Current banner, because the suggested replacement has gray skies. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:45, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

My preference would be with the current banner as well for the simple reason that the proposed replacement is taken on a grey day, making the banner look way moodier than it would have been had it been taken on a better day.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 10:29, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Top looks more appealing. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:08, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

• Current banner. The other one is taken with grey skies and there are hardly any plants. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 14:27, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I like the current banner better too. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:58, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Prefer current, canals! --ButteBag (talk) 23:19, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

By tram and metro

Amsterdam tram & metro system

The tram and metro line descriptions are out of date in the various Amsterdam district articles. For example, the descriptions do not reflect a line 5 rerouting, line 25 disappearance, line 51 partial closing and rerouting (the latter having been partly corrected). There might be other discrepancies. All the articles should be proof-read and compared to the tram/metro map. Some articles (Amsterdam/Noord, Amsterdam/Zuidoost, Amstelveen) identify lines the rint template (  5  ); the majority use bolding either "line 5" or "line 5". Some articles describe lines in a random order in paragraphs; others describe lines in lists. Here is what I would like to do by district article:

• Reformat rambling paragraphs about tram lines into lists of tram lines.
• Use bold ("line 5") instead of rint  5  but not "line 5".
• Reduce line descriptions to be mainly about major stops and transfer points.
• Include the tram/metro map in each article. (This assumes that AmsterdamTram.svg used in Wikipedia is updated for every tram and metro line change. The map also shows metro lines.)

@Ground Zero, Hobbitschuster, Ikan Kekek, Wauteurz: Comments? TheTrolleyPole (talk) 01:26, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

My comment would be simply to plunge forward and update everything that's no longer valid. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:05, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

I'd agree with Ikan. I wonder though if it'd be a good idea to use mapshapes on the dynamic map for the tramlines (with a thinner line than the already existing metro, so one can differentiate them) rather than the image. At least that way, since the mapshapes are linked to OSM through Wikidata, they will update more or less automatically once the route gets rerouted, making us less reliable for someone on Commons to redraw part of their map.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 08:15, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

I am unfamiliar with the technique you describe. For now, I will use AmsterdamTram.svg as it seems a Dutch public transit fan is keeping the svg file up-to-date. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 20:33, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

I have put the mapframe discussion into a separate section as it is getting rather detailed. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 21:40, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

I have done the updates for tram lines in Amsterdam/West. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 21:40, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Using mapframe for tram and metro maps

I wonder though if it'd be a good idea to use mapshapes on the dynamic map for the tramlines (with a thinner line than the already existing metro, so one can differentiate them) rather than the image. At least that way, since the mapshapes are linked to OSM through Wikidata, they will update more or less automatically once the route gets rerouted, making us less reliable for someone on Commons to redraw part of their map.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 08:15, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

In short, {{Mapshapes}} adds a shape to a dynamic map. These shapes can be fetched from Wikidata items, which in turn can be linked to OpenStreetMap routes. On the main article for Amsterdam (and all destinations within it, I think), you will find the source text {{Mapshapes|Q260870}}, which links to Amsterdam Metro on WD, which in turn consists of the Ring-, Amstelveen-, Noord/Zuid-, Gaasperplas- and Geinlijn. Each of these five lines then has a so-called "OSM relation ID" and "sRGB color hex triplet", which define the shape and colour used to draw these shapes on a dynamic map. These things together make that a dynamic map can contain the lines drawn in the one I inserted here.

Technical lay-out aside, I think it could be worthwhile to do the same for the tramlines, which I'm pretty sure ought to be mapped on OSM as well. Using a smaller width for these lines would be beneficial to differentiate them from the metro service though. This could replace the image itself, which depends on someone on Commons to update it from time to time, whereas the OSM content, especially in big cities like Amsterdam, tends to be up-to-date within a week's time.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 21:08, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

The sample map does not show overlapping routes such as 50 & 51, nor does it show stations. Could that be remedied? Also, when tram line 25 in Amstelveen opens after 2020, how will the tram map be updated? Who would update it? TheTrolleyPole (talk) 21:40, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

It does show overlapping routes, you just have to zoom in a lot, but I definitely agree that they don't show very well. I'm pretty sure the order can be finetuned through Wikidata. New lines need to be added manually, which can be done as soon as the OSM relation is set up, which doesn't have to take long and might already be done before the line starts its service. If a change is made on OSM, it will (after some delay) also make its way to the dynamic map. The updates to the relations in OSM are done by the people working on that project. The edits within Wikidata and Wikivoyage would have to be taken on by someone here. This actual work only includes a bit of finetuning from time to time, as well as adding the occasional new line to the collection. This isn't and shouldn't be a resource-intensive process.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 21:52, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Today, the district map in each district article shows metro lines. Will your enhancement apply to this set of maps? I have doubts that features such line numbers and station/stop names can be replicated in mapframe, but perhaps mapframe enhancement could complement the tram/metro schematic diagram especially if the same line colours are used. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 00:09, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

It isn't my intent to merge the tramlines into the Metro collection, no. There would ideally be another collection of Wikidata Items, all of which tramlines. Ideally, this would be Q2060132 (Trams in Amsterdam). This would then include the lines 1-7, 11-14, 17, 19, 24 and 26 as well as the future line 25. When used in the template, both collections can be entered together, but one or the other can be shown:

{{Mapshapes|Q260870|Q2060132}}

OR

{{Mapshapes|Q260870}} {{Mapshapes|Q2060132|stroke-width=2|stroke-opacity=0.4}}

The default width of the lines are 5, but those for the metro can be set to something like 2. It's opacity could also be lowered from 0.8 to 0.5, for example. Defining these for just one of the collections, as I'm proposing, would mean the second example above is used. Clicking the line itself will prompt the name of the line, as any listing on a dynamic map does as well. It might be possible to make these labels display as  51  Amstelveenlijn rather than just Amstelveenlijn though. The stations on the line, however, cannot be fetched from Wikidata. It might be worthwhile to look at the potential of a template that can do so, but I am not the person to gauge the usability of such a template.

(The Amstelveenlijn is no longer metro 51 but it will become tram line 25 after 2020.) TheTrolleyPole (talk) 22:40, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

To use a Dutch saying, I am only throwing an idea into the group. I'm just pitching the idea, whether or not this is a good solution is something I don't know, but to me it shows potential. Setting up this dynamic map does take a fair bit of work. I am not exactly well-known with Amsterdam's tram network, so I can't easily picture how this would look on a dynamic map. As a proof of concept, I'll most likely take the time to work this map out for a selection of the tramlines, possibly only the single-digit lines, just to visualise the potential.

(Also, for the best of both worlds, I added the tram network map into the dynamic map above as an 'alternative map', which might be a decent place to put it?)
-- Wauteurz (talk) 16:28, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

@TheTrolleyPole: I've gone ahead and made all of the lines usable for mapshapes (aside for 6, which I couldn't find back in OSM, but that can be fixed at a later date). To make it look a bit less overwhelming, I've dropped the trams' opacity to .6 and their width to 2, and lowered that of the metro to 3.5. I'm thinking it'd most likely be best used in the districts rather than the main city article, since there are quite a few lines to see and they appear a bit overwhelming to me. Perhaps it's worthwhile to try this out on a few destination articles with dense tram networks like West and the Canal District to see how this would work there?
-- Wauteurz (talk) 17:15, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the colour lines make it easier to follow the tram routes, and the colours seem to match those on the static map. So would this enhancement be overlaid onto the mapframe maps in each of the district articles? The tram route lines are best on a district level where one can see the tram stop symbols and the markers for nearby sites and establishments. At the city level, one would need to ask readers to zoom in. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 22:40, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Tram line 6 is not important as it runs only during the rush hours (spitstramlijn) and it is completely overlapped by tram line 5. I wouldn't be surprised if line 6 disappears after tram line 25 (under construction) opens after 2020. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 15:55, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

I deliberately made the colours the same as on the map. I'm not sure whether they are the actual colours used, but this can always be edited on Wikidata. Regardless, yes, adding the tramlines to district articles would be done manually, but is a one-time thing, which I'll plunge forward on directly after this edit. I'll prioritise the metro network though, since that's the faster and arguably the more logical option over the tram network, meaning that the metrolines would overlap the tramlines in parts. It's either that or the other way around, and I reckon this would be the best option.

I suggest the map itself gets used only on Amsterdam#By tram, and the district articles link back to that. The mapshapes would take its place on the district articles, and for actual important information; most of that would be general information, which is best put in the By tram section of Amsterdam, since it would apply to almost every district. From a quick glance, none of the tramlines stay within one district either, so Amsterdam#By tram is the way to go, it seems.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 18:18, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Amsterdam & Region Travel Ticket

Does this still exist? The link is no longer working and a link that was added doesn't seem to relate specifically to this ticket, but rather, to be a more general though seemingly unofficial link (and therefore probably not in keeping with the what not to link to guidelines). Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:02, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Nevermind, this edit (thank you!) resolved the problem. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:08, 23 October 2020 (UTC)