Talk:Philippines/Archive 2020-21

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No visa on arrival for Chinese

BI suspends issuance of visas upon arrival to Chinese nationals Pashley (talk) 05:50, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Fingerprinting and photographing

I have just rewritten sentences regarding fingerprinting and photographing as part of the immigration process, but I don't know when it is first implemented. I have gone through that upon departure at NAIA in 2018, and again in 2019, but can someone tell a time when there was no fingerprinting and photographing yet at the immigration booths? TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 19:27, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

When it was first implemented is of interest to historians, but we don't really need to include that information here, just the fact that it's done. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:28, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Sangley Point International Airport

It is the newest airport in the Philippines became operational on February 15, 2020. Mayon V (talk) 04:10, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Please list only airports in "Get in" if they have scheduled international flights. So far, Sangley Point only has charter flights to Balesin Island (though many low-cost carriers are planning to move there). I also removed Legazpi Airport for the same reason.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:14, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

No, some airports without international flights should be listed, e.g. Dumaguete#By_plane. Pashley (talk) 03:54, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Do you mean listing airports which have no international flights in the meantime, but have plans to be connected internationally? Sangley Point is too early to be listed in "Get in"; the only passenger flights are connections to a private resort island off the eastern coast of Luzon, but budget carriers currently serving NAIA are planning to move some flights there. The Dumaguete page says it will be served by international flights, but on a new airport which is still on the planning board.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 04:07, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Third party

It is the current term used by millenials to mean "a mistress". —The preceding comment was added by Mayon V (talk • contribs)

In the context of a travel guide, why should anyone care? Pashley (talk)

Coronavirus

I think it's time to add a warning or caution related to the COVID-19 outbreak for the Philippines. While confirmed cases are largely concentrated in Metro Manila, with the first case recorded in the city of San Juan, a state of emergency has been declared since March 9, and cases are slowly increasing.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 03:08, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree though I think every country with more than a handful of confirmed cases have the box. France, for instance, has over 1,400 cases but there is no mention of Covid-19 in the article. Gizza ^(roam) 04:08, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Last I heard, the Philippines had only 20 confirmed cases, but that was up from 10 a few days earlier. It might be a huge problem if it keeps doubling every few days, but I do not think it is yet.

For our purposes, travel restrictions are more important. I'm hazy on details, but some airlines have cancelled flights e.g. [1], some travellers are being refused entry & others quarantined [2]. Pashley (talk) 04:40, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

The warning box says "hundreds of cases" have been reported, link above says 20 confirmed. Which is correct? Perhaps both: hundreds suspected, but few confirmed? Pashley (talk) 08:16, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

w:2020 coronavirus outbreak in the Philippines says 33 confirmed, 25 suspected. JHU's page also says 33 confirmed. I'd say the caution box should be corrected. —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:33, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

This report says 64 cases. Pashley (talk) 03:56, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

The current NAIA warning box text also says "All flights and ground transportation to and from NAIA are to be canceled from March 15 through March 22", but the w:Ninoy Aquino International Airport does not mention this & my (rather cursory) web search does not turn up confirmation. In fact, Philstar has "While domestic traffic in and out of Metro Manila is not allowed, international flight to and from abroad will be allowed." Pashley (talk) 04:11, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm currently listening on a live stream from a local AM radio station, and the latest reports say people are rushing to catch the last flights at NAIA before the lockdown. I previously looked up the MIAA website, but there seems to be no advisory about it (maybe the only info indicative the airport will shut down is that there would be no flights listed on their arrivals and departures schedule pages).

Getting back on general advisories and warnings, I also updated the Metro Manila page as the details of the lockdown (e.g. curfew, entry restrictions, no-sail zone, social distancing on mass transit) closures of most businesses except those providing basic needs) is being elaborated. I since upgraded the caution box into a warning, with links to travel advisories. The US State Department does not have an updated advisory as of March 13, but the US Embassy in Manila has posted an information page related to the pandemic in the country.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 05:33, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

@Pashley: National government has extended community quarantine to all of Luzon. All forms of public transportation throughout Luzon is suspended, anyone who violates the quarantine can be arrested for public disobedience, and foreigners must leave within 72 hours and inbound international flights are only for repatriated Filipinos. I updated the warnings in Metro Manila and the Philippines, and added an additional warning for Luzon.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 22:32, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

All 2Go boats cancelled until April 14.

DOTr says private vehicles can transport plane passengers to airports, useful after April 12 when international flights are supposed to resume. Hope so, since I have a ticket for 14th. Pashley (talk) 13:05, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Effects of travel ban to all foreigners due to COVID-19

Philippine gov't ban most foreigners from entering the country due to COVID-19.

I updated the "Visa restrictions" box, but I don't know whether the ban also has an effect on those already in the country, or those holding long-term (student, employment, temporary/permanent resident) visas. What I only know from the latest report is that those having visas but haven't traveled yet would be affected, and that Filipinos returning from overseas, foreigners married to Filipino citizens, members of charitable organizations registered in the country, and diplomatic officials would be exempted. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 05:06, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Poverty line?

We currently have this text:

According to the National Statistical Coordination Board, more than one-quarter of the population fell below the poverty line in 2014, an approximate 78% increase since 2013.

That does not look right: 78% in one year? Anyway, it would be good to have more recent statistics.

Also perhaps to give numbers that give some perspective: Does anyone die of malnutrition? Of untreated illness because they cannot afford treatment? How common are preventable diseases like polio or measles? How many people live without things that people in western countries take for granted like electricity or running water? Pashley (talk) 11:24, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, statistics is not necessarily the best way to give the reader a picture. The "poverty line" has many competing standard definitions. One is 50 % of median income (by some definition, and country comparisons can rely critically on the exact definition). In Finland that figure happens to come near what you get from social security unless you get enough income from elsewhere – which means a slight increase of median income can increase "poverty" dramatically. –LPfi (talk) 11:34, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I'd think the situation is different in the Philippines, but perhaps minimum wages are close to the poverty line, and them lagging with living costs increasing could have a similar effect. –LPfi (talk) 11:37, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

These numbers look weird, so I have updated them from here. If there are better ways of illustrating the problem, please add them. Ground Zero (talk) 11:53, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Cruises?

Do anyone here know of cruises which calls here in the Philippines? Our "Get in" section doesn't provide any info about them right now, pre-COVID. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:23, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Article status?

This is currently tagged as an Outline, which seems silly to me given the length & detail of the article. I'm not certain if it belongs at Usable or Guide, though I'm sure it is not at Star level (yet?).

Does someone have the time to review & promote it? Pashley (talk) 12:42, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

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Diving magazine awards

PH named ‘Best Overseas Diving Area’ in the Marine Diving Awards 2020, from a Japan-based magazine, based on a reader poll. Pashley (talk) 13:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Philippine languages

Swept in from the pub

I'm from the Philippines, but could we clarify how should we treat w:Philippine languages here in Wikivoyage? I've been mopping out references to Philippine languages that are not Tagalog as "dialects", and we still not have a firm position on that. After all, referring to the other native languages of the Philippines as dialects is an all-too-common myth (and is disrespectful as well); keeping such references reinforces that and exposes travelers to that misconception (and believing it). --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:23, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I'd say keep removing such remarks. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:25, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

And plus, there are even some who call English a dialect as well. Fortunately, I haven't encountered that here in WV, though that may get a mention as well in Philippines#Talk.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:33, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

What would English be called a dialect of? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Tagalog/Filipino as well.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 00:17, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

That makes no sense. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:11, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Just for evidence, from an old version of the Calbayog article: "Most people speak and understand English, since the language is taught throughout elementary to college in the Philippines. The local dialect is Waray Waray." I think there are a few other Philippine articles that call some local language as a mere "dialect", but most of those references are now gone.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:41, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

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Talk

It looks to me like Philippines#Talk is far more complex & detailed than visitors need. I'd like to trim it radically. Other opinions? Pashley (talk) 13:07, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

It might be more detailed than needed, but I think most of what is touched upon could be nice to know for the traveller. If the regional languages are spoken more or less in different provinces, some of that could be moved to a lower level, but otherwise it may be better to have it here. The thing that could be done is heavy copy editing, trying to get a tighter and clearer prose. –LPfi (talk) 15:21, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure which of you I agree with more. Let's look at this paragraph:

The Visayan languages (Cebuano, Hiligaynon, Waray and others), natively spoken in the Visayas and most of Mindanao except Bangsamoro region. Cebuano (also called Bisaya), the largest of the Visayan languages, is spoken in Cebu, Bohol, Negros Oriental, and much of Mindanao except the Moro provinces and SOCCSKSARGEN. Hiligaynon (Ilonggo), also called the second largest Visayan language, is spoken in Iloilo, Negros Occidental, Guimaras and the SOCCSKSARGEN region in central and southern Mindanao. Waray is natively spoken in the Samar and Leyte provinces. There are also other Visayan languages such as Tausug in the Sulu islands, Surigaonon and Butuanon languages in Caraga region, and Kinaray-a, Capiznon and Akeanon (or Aklanon) in Panay. A group of Visayan languages that contain Bikol influences called Bisakol are spoken in Masbate and Sorsogon provinces in Bicol.

Is the best solution to have bullet points for each language? Maybe that would be sufficient, but this wall of text is not user-friendly. Does this improve things?

The Visayan languages (Cebuano, Hiligaynon, Waray and others) are spoken in the Visayas and most of Mindanao:

• Cebuano (also called Bisaya) is spoken in Cebu, Bohol, Negros Oriental, and much of Mindanao
• Hiligaynon (Ilonggo) is spoken in Iloilo, Negros Occidental, Guimaras and the SOCCSKSARGEN region of Mindanao
• Waray is spoken in the Samar and Leyte
• Tausug is spoken in Sulu

Is that enough for a country-level summary, or should Surigaonon and Butuanon and Bisakol be mentioned? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:57, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

It looks much better. I notice you left out the last languages. That is OK if they are small or isolated (in the latter case a mention in the province article could suffice). –LPfi (talk) 07:23, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not sure whether the last 3 languages should be left out at the country level or not. What do you think, Pashley? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:43, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd leave them out. Pashley (talk) 09:59, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

OK, so let's proceed this way for the section. I'll come back to this if you or someone else doesn't make these kinds of edits first. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:06, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Please have a look at these edits. If I went too far, please restore as needed, and if I didn't go far enough, please continue removing text. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:57, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

COVID-19 boxes

Hello, editors interested in the Philippines. I've noticed that a bunch of destinations in the Philippines are in Category:Has COVID-19 box with out of date warning, because they have COVID-19 boxes that haven't been marked as up-to-date in several months. If anyone has the time to check the COVID-19 boxes and update them as needed, it would be very much appreciated. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:56, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

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• Nominated for lack of FoP in the Philippines. Do we care enough to upload the file locally? -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:34, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

If it violates Philippine law (as claimed here), I do not think we should upload it here either.

Anyway searching Commons for Boracay gives dozens of images we could replace it with & there are hundreds from other parts of the country that might also be used. Pashley (talk) 08:55, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Files here only need to be free in the US to upload it here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:14, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that's our standard. We sometimes include photos that by themselves would violate U.S. laws on copyright for public sculptures, for example, because since they're only thumbnails on part of a page but also very important and highly visible in a particular area (e.g., the "Bean" on Chicago's Loop), we consider them fair use. But we should have a really good reason for using them, and I tend to agree with Pashley that there's nothing vital about using a photograph of a sand castle if there is as yet no FoP covering such photos in the Philippines. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:12, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I doubt your claim that files "only need to be free in the US". Can you cite a source? The main servers are in the US, but readers & editors are everywhere so it is not immediately clear which laws apply.

At the least, I would expect local rules to apply to editors in those countries, e.g. if I had uploaded this Boracay photo or someone in the UK this one. My guess would be that governments in both places would think their rules applied to all photos taken in their countries, though I doubt they'd bother to make a fuss about it in most cases.

There are international agreements on copyright & the US is part of at least some of them. In fact, for years the US government has been pushing other nations for longer copyright terms, tighter laws & stricter enforcement. Whether they'd be willing to enforce another country's rule against a photo on a US sever, I do not know. Pashley (talk) 05:50, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for a little late response. I thought it was the case since WV is hosted in the US so it needs to follow US law. But it seems not the case. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:50, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I think it is the case, but what accounts for the difference between Commons and Wikivoyage on this question is that at Commons, the image is the article, so to speak, as it takes up an entire page or more, whereas on this site, images illustrate text. Therefore, whereas we can use some images of copyrighted public art or architecture when we consider it particularly important for visitors to know about, Commons can't. Of course, if anyone ever asked us to take down an image for valid reasons of copyright, we would do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:57, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

But what's not the case is that local laws are irrelevant. They are relevant, and they have even more force on Commons. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:59, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Replaced. Pashley (talk) 02:23, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

My understanding is that on Commons, photos have to be compatible with copyright laws in the U.S. and also in whatever country the photo was shot it. I can't imagine why Wikivoyage would have different standards, other than inasmuch as we have an exception rule Commons does not have. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:07, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes. There is some confusion, as "country of origin" in Berne parlance is the country where the image/work was first published, while Commons de facto mostly acts on a more common sense definition (where the image was shot). The Commons guideline/policy says that the law of any involved country should be respected, but I have never seen other countries (the one of the uploader, or of a website from which it was transferred) being taken into account.

As most contributors (and readers?) of en-voy are from the USA we can allow ourself to use the fair use clauses of USA law like en-wp (fi-wp respects law of USA and Finland). The main thing, though, is whether our use is permitted by the fair use clauses, and our and WMF's policy. The latter two both say we should rely on fair use only when needed.

–LPfi (talk) 11:06, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello @Ikan Kekek, LPfi, Pashley, SHB2000:. Perhaps you are all looking for Wikivoyage:Non-free content. I assume it is identical to Wikipedian fair use policy on unfree files. It seems it even applies to buildings too. Strangely though your article on a famous Middle East city does not have a photo of Burj Khalifa, even if it may be possible through your fair use policy. JWilz12345 (talk) 01:45, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we could have a photo of the Burj Khalifa. It is mentioned in Jumeirah#See. Our EDP differs from the en-wp one, but the underlying right to fair use is the same. –LPfi (talk) 09:33, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

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Spelling conventions

It apparently seems that the Philippines has its own spelling according to w:Template:Philippine English, which is basically similar to American english, except that the one exception, quite notable to Wikivoyage, is the preference of the British spelling for travelled and not the American traveled. So, the proposal is to change the conventions from American to Philippine English. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 03:27, 17 August 2021 (UTC)