Talk:Presidents of the United States/2019

"Other Presidents" section

Given that the Presidents of the Continental Congress cannot in any good conscious be called "Presidents of the United States", I have decided to give them their own section and throw people like Jefferson Davis into this section as well. I think this would also be the place to address w:David Rice Atchison whose very tombstone repeats the claim that he had been "President for one day" despite more good arguments to the contrary than in favor. Are there any others who might need to be listed in such a section if we deem it a good idea? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:04, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:10, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Anybody wish to expand on it? Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:52, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

@AndreCarrotflower: regarding this edit, please contribute to this discussion that I am sure you had been unaware of until now. It seems as of now that you are the first editor to find the inclusion of the treasonous traitor Davis objectionable. Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:49, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

The list of POIs is already creeping up to unmanageable levels, and we have to draw the line somewhere. Including attractions and information related to Presidents of the Continental Congress seems okay to me because 1) there's not much of it - just one POI and one infobox - so it doesn't add very much length, and 2) given the fact they held an office called president which was part of the U.S. government at the time, you could argue technically that it's within the scope of the article even if they weren't "Presidents of the United States" as we define the term today. On the other hand, Jefferson Davis has dozens of historic sites, statues, etc. all over the South, making for the possibility of numerous additions to what is, again, an overly long and list-y article. Plus, given the recent Confederate monument controversy and the general state of U.S. politics today, shoehorning attractions like that into this article is frankly "not a good look" for the site. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:55, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

The Confederacy can be covered in a separate article, but not here. Jefferson Davis emphatically was in no way a president of the United States. Period. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:21, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Scope of article

I was wondering what exactly is the scope of this article, beyond the obvious, that is? The reason why I ask is because there most likely are thousands of statues and memorials dedicated to US presidents around the world. Then there are historical sites where US presidents have signed documents that has changed history - Reykjavik comes to mind. Anyone? Philaweb (talk) 22:46, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Not to just want to promote my own country, but Singapore is where Donald Trump met Kim Jong-un, which was the first time a sitting U.S. and North Korean leader had ever met. There are rumours that Hanoi is going to host the second meeting. The dog2 (talk) 00:51, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Best of All Time

While of course this is subjective, to my knowledge, most Democrats regard Franklin Roosevelt as the best president of all time, while most Republicans regard that to be Ronald Reagan, to the point that these two presidents have almost cult-like status within their respective parties. Does anyone think this is worth a mention? At least to my knowledge, any criticism of Franklin Roosevelt is sure to offend a Democrat, and likewise, any criticism of Ronald Reagan is sure to offend a Republican. The dog2 (talk) 23:15, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Lincoln.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:35, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

I think there are quite a few on the left wing of the Democrats who have a "warts and all" approach to FDR - nobody would openly declare to be in favor of Japanese Internment for one. And as for Reagan, any honest Republican must either acknowledge stuff like Iran-Contra, which "happened to happen" under his administration or at the very least point out the difference in ideology and approach of the modern GOP and Reagan. Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:53, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

I think a lot of Democrats would agree with me that Lincoln was the greatest U.S. president, though he, like all others, had some severe blemishes on his record. I certainly don't agree that Democrats brook no criticisms of FDR, and not only on Japanese internment but also on pandering to Southern segregationist Democrats on things like not even pushing for anti-lynching legislation and keeping Jewish refugees from Nazi genocide out of the U.S. As for Reagan, he raised taxes and powered what he himself called "amnesty" for illegal aliens through Congress - positions that are anathema to most Republicans today, and which they would surely criticize if they acknowledge the truth about Reagan's record. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:04, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

To my knowledge, FDR raised the top Federal income tax bracket to 91% and greatly expanded the welfare state, which is what makes him very popular among the Democrats. And I thought Reagan gradually cut the top tax bracket from 70% to 33%, which benefitted the rich, but on the other hand raised taxes on students by making scholarships and stipends taxable income when they previously were not (in fact, to my knowledge, the US is currently the only country that considers scholarships and stipends to be taxable income). Unless I'm mistaken on that, such a massive tax cut would undoubtedly make him popular among Republicans.

And anyway, I guess if people disagree on this, then it probably will get too complicated to mention who is widely regarded as the best of all time. The dog2 (talk) 00:19, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Who was best is absolutely not a travel-relevant topic! Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:52, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

If I'm going to go to only one presidential library, I'm going to go to the library of the president that a handful of strangers on the internet decided was the best president.

No, I can't convince myself of that. I agree with Ikan Kekek. Ground Zero (talk) 01:51, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

If there was a broad consensus within the Democratic party and/or the Republican party as to who was the best, then it might be worth a mention because of notability. But given that the replies here show that people can't even agree on this within their own parties, I now agree that we should just leave this out. The dog2 (talk) 02:02, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I agree that it is best to leave "who was the best?" out, though so far not one person has mentioned George Washington. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:54, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

That's because no-one asked for suggestions of who was the 2nd-best president. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:29, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

There could be a shortlist of about 3 or 4 which have the best attractions to visit though. -- WOSlinker (talk) 09:52, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

I think the question of who was best, even if we're going to do a top 10 of equally-ranked candidates and split them evenly by party, is the road to madness and not a useful way to improve this article. It will lead to disagreements on this page, and it will invite the kind of political edits from new users that we don't want.

Anyway, we all know that the current occupant of the big house is a medically-certified genius who is about to blow all other pretenders out of the water with his unparalleled greatness...any day now.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:10, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree that a top 10 is a "road to madness". BTW, I think this next election (2020) will be an interesting one. It's surprising how well Biden has been doing so far. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:32, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

In Chinese history, there are actually some emperors who people almost universally consider to be exceptional. For instance, for the Tang Dynasty, Emperor Taizong is widely considered by many Chinese to be one of, it not the greatest in Chinese history. And correct me if I'm wrong but based on my understanding of English history, the reign of Elizabeth I is considered to be a golden age and many English people would consider her to be the greatest of all time. I guess US history is a bit shorter, so it's harder for people to agree on such a thing. With regards to the likes of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, both of them owned slaves, so that would be a major point of contention among modern-day left wingers. Even Lincoln was no angel; he originally did not let black people join the Union army because the thought they were too dumb, and only after the Confederates enlisted black slave owners (yes, they really did exist) into their military (into a non-combat regiment, but useful for propaganda nonetheless) that Frederick Douglass was able to convince him to enlist black soldiers.

@SelfieCity: With regard to the U.S. election, I think if Biden ends up being the nominee, Trump is a shoe-in to win by a landslide. After all, Biden is a corporate Democrat and not a populist, and Trump's populist rhetoric really resonates with the white working class. However, if we get Bernie Sanders vs Donald Trump, since both of them are populists, albeit one left-wing and one right-wing, we're going to have a very interesting and close fight on the cards. I'm not sure if you live in the U.S., but I can tell you that Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician among left-wing millennials. The dog2 (talk) 21:12, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

In Mexican history, there are few figures about whom everybody agrees. One would expect Santa Ana and Porfirio Diaz to be viewed negatively, but they have their defenders. Juarez meanwhile has some detractors, but imho they are usually of the "edgy for the sake of being edgy" kind. Of Germany's post-war leaders all that spent more than trivial amounts of time in the chancellorship have their defenders and even Ludwig Erhard, whose chancellorship was not exactly the most successful is well-liked by many for his pre-chancellorship... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:01, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Pancho Villa's raid WAS the last land invasion of the lower 48

9/11 isn't an invasion and while there were Japanese aerial and maritime attacks on some outlying territories in Alaska (and of course Pearl Harbor) they never got to the lower 48. And "accomplished nothing" is actually a very charitable summary of the Pershing expedition. It was the closest the US would have gotten to war during that entire decade had the German Empire not been led by stark raving mad idiots what with their unrestricted submarine warfare at the worst possible time (right after it would've helped the Irish Revolutionaries in any conceivable way, right before Russia had its revolution, which would've allowed more of a "wait and see" approach) and the idiotic idiocy of the Zimmermann telegram which - one might argue - in some small way only became even a remote possibility of a harebrained scheme because a) the Pershing expedition had been an abject failure and b) the Pershing expedition had put a wedge between Caranza and the US making it seem even remotely plausible that either would be mad enough to go anywhere near open warfare (as opposed to subtle underhanded dirty tricks, expropriation or coups) with the other. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:30, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Is Bush's Texas Estate accessible?

So Bush (who was not born in Texas) had a property in Texas during his political career but has since sold it off. Is the property still in any way recognizable as his former dwelling (apparently he had quite the "green" stuff installed, like solar panels) and can it be accessed by the general public even in a "stand at a 'keep out' sign five miles away and gawk" sense? Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:35, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Are you talking about H.W. or W.? H.W. was born in Massachusetts and W. in Connecticut, but they all lived in Texas for most of their lives. You can easily tell W. is from Texas by his accent. I don't really think Prairie Chapel Ranch (W.'s house) is accessible.--JTZegers (talk) 23:39, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Two-party system

I added a small paragraph about the modern two-party system as background information. It is most certainly true that the Democrats were explicitly white supremacist in Lincoln's time, while the Republican Party was founded to fight slavery, Lincoln being the first Republican president. I am well aware that unlike the Democratic Party of the Civil War era, the modern Republican Party isn't explicitly white supremacist or pro-slavery even though it may be right-wing, so please feel free to rephrase if anyone feels that the current iteration implies that. The dog2 (talk) 21:57, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I didn't see this post before I deleted the content. Let's please not get into generalizations about the demographics of Republican and Democratic voters—it's tangentially relevant at best, easy to unintentionally mislead, and bound to start arguments. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:43, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

As a foreigner, it is most certainly notable that the Democrats and Republicans would swap platforms. I don't know about the history of the entire world, but at least in the countries I know that have two dominant parties, I've never heard of the right-wing party swapping platforms with the left-wing party like what the Democrats and Republicans did in the U.S. I was actually pretty surprised when I first found out that Lincoln was a Republican, and the Democrats were the party of slavery and Jim Crow. But anyway, I understand this point is only tangentially relevant, so I won't push it here. The dog2 (talk) 03:47, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Let's also remember the difference between what this article is about — sightseeing destinations related to the various Presidents — and what kind of article information about political parties would go under — an article that would probably be called Politics of the United States, which would result in terrible debates and would be limited in travel-relevant information.

The point of this article is stated in its title "Presidents of the United States". I'd agree that the content is best not included. The results of the 2016 and 2018 elections showed how easily regions or states could switch from one party to another and reshape the party they switched to — first when Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Ohio, and Michigan voted for President Trump, and second when Orange County voted in the 2018 elections for the Democratic Party and Ocasio-Cortez was elected in NY. Therefore, any information about what people each party represents could go from being accurate to out of date within hours when the 2020 elections take place. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:57, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Really pushing the envelope in terms of WV:Goals and non-goals

Honestly, what in the world difference does it make to the traveller whether Martin Van Buren was natively bilingual or merely spoke English as a second language? What in the world difference does it make to the traveller whether a nearly 140-year-old, long-defunct law barred all ethnic Chinese from immigrating to the U.S. or only Chinese nationals? What in the world difference does it make to the traveller which states see more campaign efforts than others?

This article is supposed to focus first and foremost on tourist destinations related to U.S. presidents, not on American history or what those presidents did while in office. There are plenty of incomplete POI listings in this article that need our further attention. What does not need our further attention are the historical blurbs at the beginning of each section. It's well established that those blurbs are strictly necessary evils whose function in the article is to briefly explain the context of the POIs listed in their respective sections. However, despite numerous past entreaties to focus on what's relevent to travellers, nitpicking in those blurbs about minor historical details has comprised the bulk of the recent edits to this article.

Enough is enough.

Here's what I propose we do. First, let's put a hard upper limit on the length of those blurbs. Four or five lines would suffice, I'd say, though I'm not married to that number. Secondly, let's get to work shortening the ones that are longer than that. Lastly, and most importantly, let's make any subsequent edits to those blurbs subject to consensus agreement before the fact - in other words, any proposed changes must be vetted on the talk page first, rather than adding them directly to the article.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:03, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Greatly support this. We may want to consider restricting the blurbs even more than that, possibly linking to Wikipedia for any substantial information. Additionally, I think it would be good if we, as a community, were to have a discussion about whether this article really can serve the traveler in any capacity, in any form. Who is this for? If there are notable sights to see, they go in a destination. Nobody is going to look at a list of presidential monuments to decide where to go on their next vacation.

In my opinion, I think the best way forward for this article is to restrict it to one geographical area - probably the Washington, D.C. area - and make it more of an itinerary. More of a model travel topic, like the Seinfeld Tour, and less like a mess of a list of things with presidents' names on. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 04:24, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

One thing that may help is if we say, right around the beginning of the article: "For detailed historical information about American history and U.S. Presidents, please see [insert link to Wikipedia page]." At least, then, it would be clear that we're not trying to write a 500-page history of American Presidents and, instead, a travel guide.

The problem is that, with our current culture and environment, since about 2015 politics has been an extremely important issue in many people's minds, and that's been reflected in many of our articles. Since insinuations are these days enough to represent a whole website or organization's political opinion, Wikivoyage users have a tendency to either write content with those insinuations, or argue over them. The best thing to do is realize the importance of not letting the article's content get political, perhaps by following the above or even semi-protecting certain articles if necessary. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 04:59, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

The problem here isn't politically tendentious edits. It's the addition of, and subsequently the act of engaging in nitpicky, hair-splitting disputes over, trivial historical details that have nothing to do with the modern-day traveller. I think the question ARR8 poses in his comment is a good one, though he seems to be staking out a position that's more extreme than mine. It's perhaps also worth mentioning that this is an article that was created by a user who went on to become a particularly nasty block-evading vandal - such pages are usually summarily deleted, but we made an exception for this one because so many trusted editors, self included, had pitched in with so many valuable contributions of their own. But if these blurbs are going to serve as a magnet for exactly the same kind of contentious, off-topic edits that have been such a problem in other articles (such as various sections of United States of America), then maybe that's another reason why we should be asking ourselves how good of an idea this article's continued existence is. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:40, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

I hope I don't upset anyone by asking just how bad are a few disputes about edits now and then? Is this a very serious problem? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:03, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

The disputes would be fine with me if any of the points being disputed were the least bit travel-relevant. That's the much bigger problem, as I see it. There are some editors who, try as we might to teach them, can't seem to grasp where our purview ends and Wikipedia's begins. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 13:13, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

I understand. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:22, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

But is the issue at this point mainly with one user? Because if so, isn't this best discussed on their user talk page? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:25, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal to limit the background to 4-5 lines. This would put a cap on the tendency to fuss about details. Also, in most cases, we provide more space to the background info on the president than we do to listings about the president. That says something about the utility of this article to travellers. Ground Zero (talk) 14:41, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with keeping the blurbs short. Even one or two sentences might be enough. Things like the Chinese Exclusion Act and outlawing polygamy don't need to be mentioned. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:04, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Agree with keeping the descriptions as short as possible. For people who'd like to learn more about a president, there's always Wikipedia and other websites, and information is also available at many of the places we list in the article. ϒψιλον (talk) 15:20, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Since the idea of deleting this article has been obliquely hinted at, I'd like to make the point again that this is a perfectly valid topic that some people will be interested in because they're history buffs who like to travel. Moreover, User:Hobbitschuster has been inspired to start a draft of a similar article about German Chancellors since the end of World War II. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:11, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not convinced by "a traveler might be interested in it" as having any standing on the validity of a travel topic. Travelers have many interests. That logic can be used to justify literally any travel topic, because there will always be someone who is interested in something. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 02:20, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

The argument is specifically that they would make a point to travel to these attractions, or some of them, and would therefore benefit from this article in their capacity as travelers, not that they're simply travelers who are also interested in, say, washing machine manufacturing or something else that's pretty much wholly divorced from travel. What alternative standard would you like to propose? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:49, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I left my proposal for this article above. In short, turning it into a real tour/itinerary focused on a specific geographic area, probably Washsington, D.C., and linking it from there. I quite honestly doubt any traveler will find this article useful in its current form, no matter how interested they may be in the topic. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 03:58, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I tend to disagree, unless we do the same thing with national parks, but I sort of vaguely remember that you or perhaps someone else also proposed to divide up the article about the U.S. National Parks into regions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:01, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Trimmed

Seeing an emerging consensus, I've taken the liberty of trimming some of the longer entries, especially to remove less important points about their presidencies, and to be more concise. Some of the entries are still longer than 5 lines. Ground Zero (talk) 12:03, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with not letting the blurbs get too long, but what would people consider to be significant enough to be included? Based on a comment above, we can see that some people consider the Chinese Exclusion Act to be trivial, but I bet you many Chinese-Americans will disagree on that. But given this thread, I will go ahead and remove the part about FDR loosening restrictions on Chinese immigration since it's not as significant. The dog2 (talk) 15:07, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

And if people want to remove the blurb about white nationalism under Trump, I'm fine with that too. After all, regardless of the political debate on dog whistles and what not, Trump did not campaign on an explicitly white nationalist platform. The dog2 (talk) 15:37, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't think anyone is saying the Chinese Exclusion Act wasn't important. The issue is that the blurbs should not list every important thing each president did. I'd say they just should give the most famous highlights to remind readers who the president was. The current blurb for Abraham Lincoln is roughly what I have in mind—it gives the key highlights (Civil War, emancipation, assassination) without listing everything Lincoln is known for. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:44, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

No one said that the Chinese Exclusion Act was trivial. There was a lot of text about it:

"Partially loosened the ban on immigration from China in 1943 by repealing the Chinese Exclusion Act, albeit by replacing it with another set of laws that placed heavy restrictions on the number of Chinese immigrants allowed in, and banned all ethnic Chinese from owning property."

I trimmed that to:

"Partially loosened the ban on immigration from China in 1943, but placed heavy restrictions on the number of Chinese immigrants allowed in, and banned all ethnic Chinese from owning property. "

In doing that, I aimed to retain the substance of the change, without going into detail. In trying to trim the FDR section to a reasonable amount, would you propose to delete the references to the Great Depression and World War II in order to keep all of the text relating to the abominable treatment of Chinese-Americans? Or is there a better way of summarizing FDR's changes that isn't as long as the original? Ground Zero (talk) 16:21, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I plunged forward and removed the part about Chinese discrimination under FDR as a compromise. Most certainly World War II and the New Deal should be kept as I, like anybody else, would consider those to be the key highlights of his presidency. But it was Chester Arthur who signed the Chinese Exclusion Act into law, and I don't think that should be removed from the blurb under Arthur. Just because Chinese-Americans are in general doing well today does not mean there is no history discrimination against ethnic Chinese. If I'm not wrong, restrictions on Chinese immigration to the U.S. were only completely abolished (at least on paper) during the Civil Rights Movement in 1965 (when Lyndon B. Johnson was president).

As for FDR, should we mention anything about the Japanese internment camps? The dog2 (talk) 16:36, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

The point is that we are not writing a Wikipedia article here. How do we summarize a presidency in five lines or less? Discussing adding more shouldn't be done without discussing what can be removed to make room for it. Ground Zero (talk) 18:25, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

IMO, yes, interning Japanese residents and citizens should be briefly enumerated among the things FDR did. I wouldn't support getting rid of a mention of white nationalism in the case of Trump, but I also probably wouldn't spend time trying to put it back if there's a quick consensus to remove it - all of this is purely side discussion, unrelated to travel, so let's minimize it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:06, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm some way through reading the edits. Most are good, but I think it's natural for people to wonder about the relation between the Roosevelts, so mentioning that they were distant cousins is good. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:13, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘In that case, should we also mention that George W. Bush is the son of George H. W. Bush, and the Benjamin Harrison is the grandson of William Henry Harrison? We do mention that John Quincy Adams is the son of John Adams. And as a side note (which I'm not proposing to inlcude), Barack Obama and George W. Bush are actually distant cousins. The dog2 (talk) 00:55, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Any suggestions for what could be removed? Ground Zero (talk) 02:31, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

The family relationship stuff is the sort of thing that I consider to be "trivia". It's intersesting, to be sure, but if we decide to include "interesting things" about the presidents, then we should forget about having brief synopses of their presidencies, and just start copying stuff out of Wikipedia articles. Ground Zero (talk) 03:07, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

When two presidents actually have the same last name, that's when the question of how they're related is natural. It would take less time to just answer it than to debate whether to do so. And no, a distant relation between two presidents with different last names is not worth mentioning. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:31, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

The point that I am trying to make is that since I trimmed a bunch of entries, not succeeding in getting them down to the 4-5 lines that there seems to be a consensus for, there has been a lot of discussion about what to add back, and what other points could be added. There has been little discussion about how to trim further. If the consensus has changed from having short blurbs and focussing on travel content to letting the blurbs continue to expand, I'll leave this article to those who want to discuss how to add more background information on presidents. I didn't see where the consensus changed, though. Ground Zero (talk) 08:12, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

As in the case of United States of America, we can aim for greater brevity, but any kind of absolutely slavish absolute limit on length is always a bad idea. I'd rather focus on including only the absolutely most important content, which would include explaining the relationships of the few pairs of presidents with the same last names. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:43, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

To me, relationships between a few pairs of presidents don't seem important compared to world wars, depressions, slavery, persecution of Chinese-Americans, etc. The point of aiming for a target of 4-5 lines is to help us focus on what is most important, and avoid adding everything that each editor thinks is important. I didn't achieve the 4-5 lines target, so your description of "absolutely slavish absolute limit" must be referring to someone or something else, or maybe it is just another example of rhetorical hyperbole that has no basis in reality, and that helps make discussions on talk pages more unpleasant for everyone. I, for one, tire of this style of debate. Ground Zero (talk) 10:56, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

"Absolutely slavish absolute limit" refers to a thing - an absolute limit - not a person. You really think the relationship between presidents with the same last name is not an obvious question? Not answering the obvious questions is for what kind of guide? I mean, really, ignoring the obvious? That would be like not telling people that Indonesian is spoken in Indonesia. They can just Google it, right? And if you tire of this debate, just concede this one point. It affects only 3 presidents I can think of - John Quincy Adams, Franklin D. Roosevelt and George W. Bush. How about just accepting this one point and moving on? Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:08, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

The language spoken in Indonesia is unquestionably relevant to travellers. The relationship between presidents who share a last name -- I would say that is not relevant to travellers. It is relevant to the study of presidents, and belongs in an encyclopedia article. But instead of debating this further, I will propose to modify our target to provide more flexibility.

Inspired by our policy of allowing 7 cities being listed in a regional article ± 2 cities, I am going to suggest that we modify AndreCarrotflower's proposal to "5 lines ± 2". That way there is flexibility to accomodate relationships or whatever, while not giving up on the idea that this list should not keep expanding when someone decides something about a president is important enough to include. The target is 5, but when it gets to 7, something has to go -- either the president's economic policies, relationships to other presidents, or mention of a war. Is that a reasonable approach to allowing flexibility so that we can move on? Ground Zero (talk) 12:16, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek:Benjamin Harrison was the grandson of William Henry Harrison, so make that four. The dog2 (talk) 14:43, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Ground Zero, that's probably a reasonable policy, but I'll have to see and work on implementation to be sure. I'll suggest that work be done on trying to encapsulate the descriptions, see how that goes, and then come back to the policy proposal. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:37, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with the proposal, reasonable though it is. I don't think we should set a lower bound for the number of lines, and, without one, it just becomes a hard cap of 7. I'd prefer the original quasi-proposed 5-line limit, thought would prefer an even shorter cap over that. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 17:58, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

I just edited all the president descriptions. I don't see any big issue at all - they're all brief now. That is, except for one: Bill Clinton. Maybe it's too recent and I feel too close to the object to see how to make his description briefer. But I don't think we really need to spend a lot of time discussing these things for just one description. I propose a different guideline, more along the lines of what AndreCarrotflower suggested above: As with the United States of America article, I would suggest that any substantive additions to the descriptions of presidents as they currently stand should require a discussion reaching consensus on this page, and failing that, should be immediately reverted. That doesn't mean reverting any addition of a word, as some more elegant phrasings might benefit from another word or two, but it does mean reverting the addition of new content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:11, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I removed the part about Thomas Jefferson's gravestone because that statement is meaningless without context. To my knowledge, he considered the founding of the University of Virginia to be his crowning achievement, and requested that it be carved onto his gravestone instead of his presidency. That said, I understand that the founding of the University of Virginia, which I added in place of that statement is not directly relevant to his presidency even if it may be one of his most significant contributions to the country, so please feel free to remove it if people feel it shouldn't be there. The dog2 (talk) 18:24, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree in spirit with Ground Zero's proposed amendment to my policy, but I'd modify it further to 4 lines ± 2, with the understanding that given the M.O. of several of our editors, in practice that's going to equate to six lines per president, which IMO is the maximum length I'd be comfortable with. I also appreciate Ikan Kekek reiterating what is by far the most important prong of the proposed policy I laid out above. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:03, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

The number of lines is different on different screens, so it seems to me any kind of strict number-of-lines limit isn't workable. We could limit the number of sentences or words, or just agree to keep them concise and focused. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:05, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

If vague requests to keep the blurbs concise, travel-related etc. were going to work, they would have worked the first time we asked folks to abide by them. Whether we measure by lines or bytes or words, the guidelines need to be clear and quantifiable, and absent a pretty damn strong consensus that an exception is warranted, we need to be reverting edits that fall outside those guidelines. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:10, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

I disagree with removing this from the description of Woodrow Wilson: "Segregated the military and other formerly integrated organs of the federal government." Very historically important and relevant to the history of civil rights, but perhaps when (I hope) that sentence is reinstated, it could be characterized as a blow to civil rights with a relevant link, because isn't there a travel topic about civil rights? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:20, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Maybe we disagree about what the blurbs should cover. My position is that they should not include everything important a president did, but only the very most famous highlights, enough to remind the reader who the president was (as well as directly travel-related content like the sentence about Jefferson's grave). By the way, I'm not sure if the sentence about Wilson is true—Wikipedia seems to indicate that the army was already segregated before he came along. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:26, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

With regards to Jefferson's gravestone, how sure are you that Jefferson is the only former president who did not have his presidency mentioned on his gravestone. Unless you are sure that is the case, I don't think it's worth a mention in the blurb. And besides, we already list his house at Monticello under him, and his grave is on the same property that his house is located on. The dog2 (talk) 00:30, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

I have no idea whether or not he's the only president like that. It's an interesting fact either way. If you want to move the fact about the gravestone to the Monticello listing, that's fine with me. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:32, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Granger, I note your point on Wilson. I had originally posted something documented, which is that he fired all black postal workers and segregated the White House staff. I think it is important that he was horrible for race relations, but I guess that could be covered somewhere else. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:05, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Proposed Reagan edit

Sorry to come back to this, but I just thought that we should mention something about "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall" under Reagan, since that line from his speech at the Berlin wall is so famous that many people will instinctively think of that whenever Reagan's name is mentioned. The dog2 (talk) 02:17, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Really? I don't think it's essential. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Is it more important than the point that are in the blurb now? What would you take out to make room for this. The blurb is already long. There's not much point proposing adding something if you're not going to identify what you would remove to make room for it. There is a strong consensus to keep the blurbs brief. If you ignore that strong consensus, I don't think you'll find much support for your proposed changes. Ground Zero (talk) 10:38, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't see any need to include the quote. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:57, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

If we had to remove, I guess we could remove the part where he "ended the policy of using inflation to lower unemployment". I'm not sure how well known that policy is. And this was more as a gloss to his hard line stance on communism, by perhaps adding a short segment that goes something like "perhaps best epitomised by the line "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall". The dog2 (talk) 15:05, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

The dog2 is right about the inflation/unemployment thing. So long as we excise it, I could get behind including the far more well-known Gorbachev quote. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Reagan's monetary policies had a much bigger impact on average Americans than his foreign policy, but monetary policy doesn't lend itself to pithy summaries. I agree it's better to go with his well-known foreign policy initiatives. Ground Zero (talk) 18:17, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

In any case, we already mentioned "Reaganomics" and give a brief summary of what his general economic policy was, so that is already covered. The dog2 (talk) 19:15, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm okay with it being in the section of his name, like this:

“ Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall ”

—Ronald Reagan

However, as just more prose, I see no need to include it. Understand the difference? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:46, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Actually, it looks like the quote is already mentioned in the caption. So it doesn't need to be added. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I guess I must have missed it. In that case, I'm happy to leave the blurb as it is, and I've completed the quote in the picture caption. The dog2 (talk) 05:39, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Time to insist on consensus before further changes to the presidential summaries

Things have settled down in this article: there have been no edits to the article or the talk page for 5 days. We never achieved the "4-5 lines" of historical summary of the presidencies, as proposed by User: AndreCarrotflower at the start of thus discussion, but we have shortened them.

I propose that this pause in editing would be a good time to implement the second part of his proposal:

"let's make any subsequent edits to those blurbs subject to consensus agreement before the fact - in other words, any proposed changes must be vetted on the talk page first, rather than adding them directly to the article."

This would mean that any edits to the historical summaries of presidencies (only) would be reverted if consensus had not been reached on the talk page prior to the change.

The rest of the article, of course, could be edited freely. Agreed? Ground Zero (talk) 18:31, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support as a step in the right direction. I would also extend this to the Understand section. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 18:34, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
• Support, of course. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:03, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
• Support. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:19, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
• Support. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:51, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
• Works for me. The dog2 (talk) 17:23, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
• Comment. I see a change has been made. Good to add the in-article comment, but perhaps something clearer could be added as well. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:05, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

The goal of requiring consensus was to dissuade people from fussing over the blurbs, not for the talk page to be flooded with proposed edits

If things continue the way they have for the past couple of days since the new policy went into effect, I'd be prepared to support limiting individual users to one blurb-edit proposal per month. What say you? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:04, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm willing to wait till Monday. If this continues until then without resolution, at that point, I would consider it, though maybe we could do once every 3 weeks or something. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:07, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

I dislike hard limits like that. What if someone notices serious problems in two different blurbs on the same day? If the blurbs are causing so much unhappiness, we could just remove them altogether—they're not providing that much value to the traveler anyway. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:34, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Not sure if this is seriously being considered, but strongly support it either way. I'd say the value provided is actually negative, as they are by necessity oversimplified and, as such, low in actual information value. On the other hand, the lead paragraphs about the presidents at Wikipedia go into the necessary amount of detail and have had an incredible amount of work put into them, including from real historians and experts with a wide range of opinion of each president, such that they have a semblance of balance. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 16:24, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Listings without links, part 2

I've once again looked through this article to find listings that don't have a link to the city or district where they're located. Here's the current list:

• Tuckahoe Plantation
• Montpelier
• Sherwood Forest Plantation
• Grant Boyhood Home
• Grant Cottage State Historic Site
• Chester Alan Arthur State Historic Site
• Grover Cleveland Birthplace
• National McKinley Birthplace Memorial
• Roosevelt's Little White House Historic Site
• Dwight D. Eisenhower Presidential Library & Museum
• Eisenhower Birthplace State Historic Site
• Ronald Reagan Birthplace & Museum
• Ronald Reagan Museum & Peace Garden
• Grave of and statue honoring David Rice Atchison

As far as I can tell, none of these attractions are covered in any Wikivoyage destination article (except the Grover Cleveland Birthplace, which is covered in Nutley, but I'm not sure if that's the right article for it). Any help would be appreciated adding them to the appropriate destination article and adding a link from the listing here. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:24, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

A lot of information can be gleaned just by doing a quick web search. For example, there is a w:Tuckahoe (plantation) article. I don't have time to look all of these up right now, but a normal web search is the way to start. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:35, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not hard to start researching these places. The issue is more that it's not clear which article some of them should be covered in (the nearest city to whatever small town the POI is in? Or should the small town or protected area get an article for itself?). —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:37, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

As always, that would depend on how much content an article about the small town would or could contain. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:58, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Update

New list – as far as I can tell, these are the listings that still don't link to the appropriate destination article:

• Montpelier
• Grant Boyhood Home
• Grant Cottage State Historic Site
• Eisenhower Birthplace State Historic Site
• Ronald Reagan Museum & Peace Garden
• Ferdinand Magellan railcar
• Grave of and statue honoring David Rice Atchison

It would be great if we could figure out which destination articles these should be covered in, add listings accordingly, and link to those articles from this one. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:35, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Wilson's Racism

I think if FDR's slipups on race (during wartime, mind you) are worthy of note, Wilson's avowed racism is even more so. But my addition of his segregationism was removed... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:41, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

For better or for worse, Japanese internment is much more well-known than any of Wilson's domestic policies. But we could remove Japanese internment too if you want. Honestly I'm starting to wonder if it would be best to remove the blurbs altogether. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:25, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't think Japanese internment should be removed, especially as it's so relevant today. I think Wilson's racism is very historically significant, but I don't feel the need to make a Federal case about it. This is, after all, a travel guide. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:59, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

I actually lean somewhat toward's including Wilson's racism in the blurb. His blurb isn't that long anyway, and adding a short sentence about it would not make it too unwieldy to read. While I can't think of anything to excise from Wilson's blurb, if we really must excise something from the article, we can remove the sentence about Clinton's healthcare plan since it did not pass in Congress, and hence did not really have any impact, which would shorten Clinton's much longer blurb. And if we really want to push it, Trump and white nationalism is something I'd be willing to do away with as a compromise, since Wilson's racism was far more blatant. The dog2 (talk) 01:26, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

The thing is, this isn't a theoretical discussion. If you care enough about this to make a proposal, propose a form of words for Wilson's blurb here, and see if anyone wants to support it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:33, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

I propose for discussion exactly the edit I made that was revered on account of "no consensus" Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:16, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Which was? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I think this Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:00, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

The phrase at issue is First Southern president and avid segregationist since Johnson. Are you distinguishing "avid" segregationists from merely ordinary ones? I'm not sure the phrase is clear enough to stand on its own. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Guide status

Is this article at guide status yet? If not, what needs to be changed? It seems highly detailed. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:53, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Needs more listings. Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:05, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

I recall seeing a policy somewhere that listings in itinerary or travel topic articles should not include hours, prices, phone numbers, etc., and that these details should be only in city articles. I can't find that policy, but it seems like a reasonable approach since itinerary and travel topic articles are not used for the nitty-gritty of travel planning, but more as an overview. This article has these details for many of the listings, which I think add unnecessary clutter. Ground Zero (talk) 21:20, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Quotes

So my edit was reverted supposedly because I violated the rule of not editing the blurbs. All I did was add a quote template with a line those presidents are famous for, which I think help in having lively content, and I would say help in jogging the memory of people as to what that president is famous for. For instance, someone who is a history buff on 9/11 and the War on Terror might be reminded about Bush Jr by the line "You're either with us or against us." and feel inspired to visit all the sites connected to his presidency. Besides, those aren't particularly wieldy and help improve readability, so why not? The dog2 (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

You really think this is open to question? None of the presidents have a quote attributed to them above the super-brief blurb about them. There's no really important travel-relevant reason to spend time arguing about which quote we should have from G.W. Bush, let alone Millard Fillmore. So please drop the topic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:16, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Hear, hear. Let's focus on adding content about travelling to sites relevant to the presidents, not yet more background. This is a travel guide, not an encyclopedia. Ground Zero (talk) 22:19, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

The quotes are a good addition, except that they add more to a long travel article, making them unnecessary. I agree with the above that they should not be included in the article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:57, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Summit meeting locations

I added the locations where Donald Trump met with Kim Jong-un but it got reverted supposedly because there are too many summit meetings. While I agree that we can't possibly list the locations of every summit meeting ever attended by a president, we do mention milestones in diplomatic relations. Regardless of my or any other person's personal politics, it is an undisputed fact that Trump was the first ever sitting U.S. president to meet a North Korean leader in his official capacity. Similarly, it is an undisputed fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to set foot in North Korea. Shouldn't those count as particularly notable summits regardless of what your personal politics are? For that matter, if any future president of either party were to meet with the leader of Iran, I would be in favour of listing the location where it happened if it can be visited by tourists given that it is still a diplomatic milestone. The dog2 (talk) 16:16, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

I disagree. All modern presidents meet foreign leaders for important summits. Washington and Grant fought lots of battles -- should they all be included? Reagan's filming locations? If we want to include Trump's meeting places, then we should branch this article to "Donald Trump sites", which could then include his hotels. Otherwise, we end up with a great big jumble of information than will be unusable. The Reagan-Gorbachov meeting site should be removed. Ground Zero (talk) 16:31, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

@The dog2: Please give US politics a rest and find other topics to write about. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:41, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict x2) The mere fact that Trump was the first president to do such and such a thing does not make it notable. Every president was the first at something. And it remains to be seen whether Trump's summit meetings with the Kims will go on to be an event of major diplomatic significance rather than just a minor historical footnote. Until then, let's stick with the broad strokes, the places that we are already more or less sure that history will link him with: Trump Tower, Mar-a-Lago. (Frankly, even the Old Post Office I find a little iffy.)

Parenthetically, making a federal case out of it (no pun intended) every time your edits get reverted doesn't really jibe with the collegial and cooperative spirit of wikis. If you're finding that this kind of thing happens frequently, the takeaway on your end should be to modulate your contributions in accordance with what kind of information does and doesn't make the cut.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:45, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Locations linked to the military service of presidents

Given that Grant is more well known for his superb generalship than his decent but hampered by evil or incompetent underlings presidency, should we mention the sites of the military career of the likes of Grant (Vicksburg, Shiloh, Fort Donelson, Appomattox) Garfield (read up on his civil war record - clearly the bullet that hit him in 1881 was meant for him in the 1860s...), JFK and so on? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:24, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

I'd say no. Those belong in American Civil War. However, perhaps there could be a brief mention of them with a link. Similar situation in regard to Dwight Eisenhower and World War II. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:35, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

We don't have an article on the British North America colonial rebellion and the 1812 incident though. And some battles were rather obscure if not for the "future famous people" in them Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:35, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Early United States history could also be relevant. We might consider American Revolution or War of 1812 articles. /Yvwv (talk) 22:28, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Other than for Garfield's involvement, the Battle of Middle Creek is rather obscure... Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:16, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

So is his presidency. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:07, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Because he got shot. I like presidents who don't get shot. Believe me. Bigly. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:23, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

OK, Mr. Trump, but you can't disagree with me, surely. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:46, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

At any rate our civil war article lacks a bunch of important sites Hobbitschuster (talk) 05:47, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

That's a good thing to work on, for anyone who feels motivated to do so. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Obama and Cuba

I was just wondering, would Obama re-establishing diplomatic relations with Cuba be significant enough to make a note in his blurb? The dog2 (talk) 04:04, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

I would be inclined to say yes, especially given that Obama's blurb on this page has always seemed underwhelming to me, and a poor reflection of how historically consequential his administration was (read: far from the most consequential in history, but far more so than the blurb currently lets on). But I'd say let's hear from others before you add it in. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

I like adding it because it's a significant event in foreign policy, and he was an important president for foreign policy, but on the other hand, I think he did much more impactful things in foreign policy, such as withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq and making the nuclear agreement with Iran - the problem being, of course, the degree to which Trump has rubbished everything possible that Obama did just because it was Obama who did it. So relations with Cuba are on ice, though not severed, and the agreement with Iran was violated for no reason and destroyed. Etc., etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:17, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

It looks like there's not going to be any opposition, so I guess if nobody opposes in the next 24 hours, I'll make the change. The dog2 (talk) 22:29, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Coverage of ancillary offices and titles

Let's discuss this edit. I think Granger is right. This isn't an article about cabinet officers, nor is it really about how the Executive Branch of the U.S. government functions. Let's please keep ancillary background to a minimum. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:14, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

While this is not an article about the U.S. Cabinet in general, I think a short gloss about who the Cabinet is composed of is fine. When you go and visit tourist attractions related to various presidents, you may come across titles such as the Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense, so I think some background is useful for potential visitors to these sites. And besides, it is indeed true that one of the key roles that the Constitution assigns to the President is the appointment of Cabinet secretaries, federal judges and ambassadors. The dog2 (talk) 19:18, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

I can live with a single sentence explaining what the Cabinet is, though I don't think it's necessary. Let's please remove the rest of the tangential details. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:23, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

This isn't a case like with the summaries of each individual president's administration, where we have 44 individual blurbs that could easily amount to an unmanageable glut of information if we're not extremely vigilant. The Other titles section consists of only a few paragraphs and actually, IMO, was a little scanty on detail before the latest round of additions. I support the status quo, though I wouldn't support going into much further detail. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:41, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Impeachment

Should the blurb for Trump mention his impeachment? I ask because of the rule agreed to above that "any proposed changes to the blurbs must be approved by consensus on the talk page first, before they are made in the article." —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:58, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Third president in U.S. history to be impeached by the House of Representatives. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:14, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, but Granger was right to revert the undiscussed change and bring the issue to the talk page. Even if it's obvious that the additional information merits inclusion, which IMO it was in this case, no undiscussed changes to the blurbs still means no undiscussed changes to the blurbs. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:35, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Exactly. On the content issue, I agree that the proposed content is appropriate, and if there are no objections in the next day or so it can be re-added. —Granger (talk · contribs) 03:46, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

There really couldn't possibly be a good reason to object. I don't dispute having a discussion, but this is really so obvious; how could we possibly ignore it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:31, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I've re-added the information, minus the phrase "to date", which is meaningless in context if you think about it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:35, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes it is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:21, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Acquittal

Trump has officially been acquitted (What did the Democrats expect, given that his approval rating among Republican voters is over 90%?), so I think we should now modify the blurb to reflect that? The dog2 (talk) 21:44, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

They expected that and thought it was important to do, anyway. Read up on why and what the implications of it are and don't discuss it here. Meanwhile, modify the blurb to state that he was impeached by the House and not convicted by the Senate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:16, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Done. The dog2 (talk) 22:22, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Changed to an uncontroversial form of words (it's arguably not and arguably can't be an acquittal, and we don't want to argue that point). Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:26, 5 February 2020 (UTC)