Talk:Cuisine of Britain and Ireland

Britain not especially known for its cheeses?

I thought it was. Maybe not as much as France, but there are quite a few excellent English cheeses. Cheddar may be the most famous, but there are many others, including Cheshire, double Gloucester, Stilton, and that's just off the top of my head. I consider England an excellent country for cheese. I'm much less familiar with other nations in the British Isles. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:01, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Well, I always think that in the States, cheddar is the standard if you buy cheese, at least of the British types. But by all means we should include all the important kinds of cheeses; just that cheddar is the one everyone knows.

When it comes to cheeses, I think Switzerland and Italy are so well known for their cheeses. Really, though, most of the western European countries have good cheeses. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:42, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I agree. France is also extremely well-known for its cheeses, but yeah, Europe is full of good cheese. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:46, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I think that it's a lot to do with the fact that, in Asia, many people don't consume dairy products at all. Otherwise, I think cheese would have been more widespread around the world. As it is, cheese is really a European/North American thing. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:50, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Depends where. Dairy products are very widespread in the Middle East, Central Asia, South Asia, and places like Mongolia and Tibet. Where they're rare is Southeast Asia and most of East Asia.

By the way, head to England when you can. You'll love the variety and quality of cheeses you can get in your local supermarket, without even going to a cheesemonger. And that's far from the only really enjoyable thing about a visit. I've only been to London once so far, but it was a 2-week trip and I loved it! I had a side trip to Belfast, too, and enjoyed that visit as well.

One point that should be made about British food is that it had a bad reputation as bland and not that tasty, but that's a pretty outdated view, not just because of the taste for spicy food like curries and peri-peri chicken (which was popular in a local, well, they don't call them diners there - luncheonette? - that was not presented as anything but English) but also because the traditional food itself is often of a high standard, or at least, that was my experience.

I would have thought that the Sunday roast was already mentioned in the United Kingdom article, or perhaps England. Is it? Sunday roasts are really fun. And of course there's tea, and fish & chips can be great if you know where to go (and usually quite acceptable if you don't). Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:57, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

One of my best friends is a native Scot who is loath to waste an opportunity to bash his home country's cuisine. A few years ago, for our own edification but also to prove him wrong, my wife and I embarked on a little project of compiling recipes for, and cooking, traditional British foods that looked tasty to us. Suffice it to say I now have a real appreciation for the cuisine. Traditional Sunday roast with onion gravy and Yorkshire pudding is one of my favorite dinners, especially when the weather starts to get cold. Cock-a-leekie soup, too, preferably with the prunes grated into the broth rather than added whole. I even love Marmite! -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:22, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I have been thinking of starting this article for months now, and am glad SelfieCity has taken the plunge. I'm also glad that Ikan and Andre both appreciate British cuisine, hopefully you will translate your experiences and enthusiasm into the article (and also tell your friends!)

This one will be on my watchlist for sure, and when I've finally got the York article to the level it needs, it will no doubt be on my to-do list with much to add.

It's not for me to judge how well-known British cheeses are elsewhere, but I can point you to my own contributions at Cheese#England and the delightfully punny British Cheese Board for further information on this. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:20, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm far from an expert on the cuisine of the region, but it was on WV:RA and I thought I might as well start it, since at least I know something. It's great to see others improve the article.

I'll probably continue to add information from related articles if you guys don't mind. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:05, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Sources

United Kingdom#Eat has quite a bit of information

England#Eat has useful information

Scotland#Eat is quite useful

Wales#Eat has a bit of information

Ireland#Eat is interesting

Northern Ireland#Eat has just a bit of information

No reason to reinvent the wheel - there's much more there (especially in the UK article) than there is here. And then the question is how much of it to move here and how much to leave there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:25, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Also, note Cheese#England and Cheese#Wales Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:26, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I've added quite a lot of information about specific meals from United Kingdom#Eat, and it has brought this cuisine article up to usable status already. It's now around 16,000 bytes in all. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:36, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:49, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, sure. Just want to check that I haven't removed too much from the original section or anything like that. However, I think what we've done here by moving content from eat sections to a separate cuisine article could be done for more countries — almost all of the Malaysian cuisine article came from Malaysia#Eat and similar "eat" sections, originally. One way to deal with bloated article sections is to create cuisine articles. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:17, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

High tea

One of the great British traditions is high tea, and this has spread beyond Britain to pretty much the whole of the former British Empire. I was just wandering which would be the most appropriate section to put this under. And if you ever go to London, I'd say having high tea at the Ritz or Savoy is a must. The dog2 (talk) 20:31, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I would think of going to the Ritz or the Savoy for afternoon tea, but to a basic cafe for high tea. To me, high tea is eaten about 6pm and consists of a hot dish (shepherd's pie, fish and chips etc) followed by bread and cakes with loads of hot tea. For example see this cafe in Glasgow. AlasdairW (talk) 22:38, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

OK, interesting. I always thought of high tea as a particularly posh and expensive form of afternoon tea like what you get at the Ritz or the Savoy. At least in Singapore, the Raffles Hotel calls that high tea. The dog2 (talk) 23:04, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Guide status?

According to WV:Travel topic status, if we had "a listing of relevant destinations", this could become a guide status article. Do we need this for a cuisine article? If so, what destinations should be included? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:42, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

This is an important question, because in addition to resolving the issue of whether this article in particular deserves Guide status, it will also resolve that of how to ensure that these "cuisine" articles are truly travel-oriented, rather than being too encyclopedic. Pinging Ikan Kekek, Hobbitschuster, and JuliasTravels, who were the ones who still had some lingering doubts about the current status quo, which as far as I can tell hasn't changed all that much since the discussion at Talk:Food and drink petered out. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:36, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

At this point, I think that the Japanese cuisine article stands out as a good one that's relevant to travelers. Does this one stand up to that one in explaining what to expect in different kinds of eateries? Not quite, I think. One type of eatery I don't see much mention of is the kind of informal, maybe it's called a luncheonette, but it struck me as being like a diner. It was a neighborhood place with regulars and opened quite early in the morning, maybe 6 AM (my girlfriend and I went there early on our jetlagged first full day in London), it was inexpensive, and it served a lot of egg dishes and things like bangers & mash or ham and beans. It also served good periperi chicken, which my girlfriend and I would sometimes get for a quick lunch. I imagine these kinds of places are common and may be a good, convenient choice for a quality inexpensive meal for low-budget tourists.

Also, there's a thread at Talk:Japanese cuisine about whether that article is a Guide yet. Here's the key point:

I think more is needed on Japanese table manners and dining etiquette. You expect to find detailed information on how to eat and drink in a travel guide, in contrast to an encyclopedia article. Issues like how to hold your chopsticks, are you allowed to eat certain things with your hands, chewing your food noisily and slurping, eating the last grain of rice, how to conduct yourself in tea ceremonies, should you pour drinks for others before your own, etc.

By analogy, there should probably be at least a bit about expected dining etiquette at different kinds of eateries in this article.

I do also think that there might be more specifics in terms of places to seek out for x and y. Should "United Kingdom" be covered in one fell swoop, or should there be clearer delineation between regional styles? Same question in regard to Ireland. And are there any specialities of outlying islands like the Channel Islands, Isle of Man or the Shetlands that merit mention? Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:58, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

I think that there are a few things that should probably be added:

• • • A description of each meal typically eaten, and when. At the moment only afternoon tea is covered.
    • A description of different types of place to eat, and a list of the common chains of each type (so that traveller's don't mistake a chain for a local independent).
    • Etiquette should be covered although it is fairly similar to other English speaking countries - should mention tipping.
    • Could have more on what is available in supermarkets and other food shops.

I would avoid listing very specific places to eat - no "eat sticky-toffee pudding in Cartmel", but "eat vension in the Scottish Highlands" might be ok. AlasdairW (talk) 10:36, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

I do not know much about this earlier debate, but if we can make one cuisine article travel-related, I would think we can make all of them travel-related. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:38, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Doing so requires specific local knowledge, to be able to tell people where to go for x, y and z speciality. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:16, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

You live in the U.S. I live in the U.S. Many other users of Wikivoyage live in the U.S. I think we should be able to write a pretty good article about American cuisine, but I haven't looked through the Japanese cuisine article, so I can't say for sure. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 00:30, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

The U.S. is big and varied, so we need editors who have expertise on every distinct (or at least notable) culinary region in the country. But that's a topic for Talk:American cuisine. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:08, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘All these different cuisine articles and their various talk pages are confusing me. This is British and Irish cuisine. I expect TT could add some information, but he's often busy. There's a new contributor from London that could be a help, but so far they've only made minor changes for information. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:33, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

I've been adding information, and there is plenty more I want to contribute. But for now, my WV time is focused on York and admin duties. Fortunately, other users are also knowledgeable about the topic, and it's getting better all the time.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:47, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Is this properly a guide now? It seems plenty useful. If it's not a guide, what more work is required to make it one? Whether or not it's needed, a specific section on vegetarianism might be useful, with some reference to w:English cuisine#Vegetarianism. There are also some additional dishes mentioned in w:Northern Irish cuisine, w:Scottish cuisine and so on. We don't want to have an encyclopedic scope in this article, but should some of them be added? It also might be helpful, as suggested above, to separate the sections into different nations, etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:54, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Flapjacks

Do flapjacks deserve a mention? I think so, but I'm not sure where in the article to put them. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:10, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Cuisine_of_Britain_and_Ireland#Cafes? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:29, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

That works. I've added a sentence – please improve it as you see fit. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:59, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Looks good. The other option, which is much more involved purely because of the variety available, is to start a separate 'Cakes and desserts' section, as there's hardly anything on the British pastry tradition here. Eventually, I'll have a proper crack at this article, but will hold back for now because I have a bit of a nasty habit of unfinished or stalled WV projects.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:55, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

A "Cakes and desserts" section sounds like a good idea to me when you (or others) have the time. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:17, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Britain?

Ikan Kekek when this article uses the word "Britain", it is not clear which of the many ill-defined meanings of the word it is using. Given that the first four words of the article are "British and Irish cuisine", and "British" is the demonym for people of the United Kingdom, I assumed that "Britain" was being used in place of "United Kingdom", so why not use the less ambiguous and more correct "United Kingdom" or "UK"? DeFacto (talk) 20:36, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm OK with changing the title if others agree, but the word "Britain" should not be substituted for in this kind of context:

• The pastie peculiar to Northern Ireland should not be confused with the type of pasty associated with Cornwall and common throughout Britain.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:46, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: which of the two main sloppily and inaccurately used meanings of "Britain" is meant there then do you think? "The UK" (all four constituent parts of the UK, including the one on the island of Ireland) or "Great Britain" (the largest of the British Isles, containing three of the four constituent parts of the UK - the other is on the second-largest island, Ireland along with the sovereign state also called Ireland)? Whichever it is, I think it should be said that way and not left meaningless as it is now. DeFacto (talk) 21:02, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Do we really have to say "Cuisine of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland"? That seems unnecessarily cumbersome when we "Britain" is commonly used to mean the island of Great Britain, and Ireland is also an island.

This is a travel guide written in an informal, easy to read style, not a legal document that requires excessive precision.

It would be more useful to readers if we spend our time adding travel content rather than worrying about legal precision. Ground Zero (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't know, but assume that the title was chosen to match the region name, since the article covers the cuisine of the entire archipelago, not just Ireland and the UK proper. If a name needs to be changed, wouldn't it be better to focus on the region first? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:12, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Ground Zero: why would we want to use ambiguous and unclear terminology though, when we could be precise and unambiguous by simply saying "Great Britain" when we mean that and "the UK" when we mean that? They are two entirely different things, one is a sovereign country and the other is an island containing part of that sovereign country, and just "Britain" could be interpreted to mean either of them! DeFacto (talk) 21:20, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there is ambiguity here at all. "Britain and Ireland" is a well-understood term. Either it means two big islands (with their off-shore islands), or the two independent nations that occupy those islands. Whichever definition is used covers the same territory. Ground Zero (talk) 21:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I see you already moved the region. Well I've moved it back, because the name Britain and Ireland was chosen a long time ago through discussion and consensus. We may override the previous consensus, but not without discussion.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:22, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

@ThunderingTyphoons!: do you know which of the two main and totally different meanings (or maybe even one of the other meanings) of the word "Britain" was intended, or can you give a link to the discussion please so that I can find that out for myself? DeFacto (talk) 21:26, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I wasn't around at the time, so I couldn't tell you what they were thinking. Try Talk:Britain and Ireland, Talk:Europe, and Talk:Europe/Hierarchy; there should be something on one of those. As I said in an edit summary, I'm not necessarily opposed to changing the titles of these articles (I haven't really thought about it), but we just need to take it slowly, discuss the issues, and reach a consensus before charging in and changing everything. Personally, I won't be around for much longer tonight, but will be happy to join in the discussion tomorrow.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:32, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

When a type of pastie particular to Northern Ireland is mentioned, it obviously can't be contrasted with other pasties in the UK, since Northern Ireland is part of the UK, but it can be contrasted with pasties in Britain. I think there's another issue: If we go by official designations, I seem to remember that neither the Isle of Man nor at least some of the Channel Islands are part of the UK. If that's true, using the colloquial designation, Britain, might be clearer in some cases although you think it's ambiguous. Maybe the ambiguity is actually helpful at times. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:35, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I prefer the present title. This is not an article about something about which legal matters are significant (unlike say Driving in the United Kingdom), and so an informal title is better. In the case of food, things in Northern Ireland are more likely to be common with Ireland than Britain, so the usage also make sense from that point of view. The cuisine is common with the Isle of Man and and to some extent with some British Overseas Territories, like the Falkand Islands. AlasdairW (talk) 22:16, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd prefer "Cuisine of the United Kingdom and Ireland" like how it's on passports but without the northern bit. SHB2000 (talk) 02:38, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I prefer the current title for the reasons otherwise given, and in particular due to Ireland covering both areas within and outside the UK. There's no need to make legal distinctions here, and as mentioned elsewhere they make for false precision -- "the UK" includes some things that aren't British and excludes some that are. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 05:53, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

If we're following passports, I suppose it would be "Cuisine of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Ireland". Any takers? No? —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:31, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

@Mx. Granger: why do yu think anyone would want to follow passports? What's wrong with using just common (colloquial if you like), concise, accurate & unambiguous and neutral names? DeFacto (talk) 19:13, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Following passports was suggested above. But I'm just joking – I have no opinion on the proposed move. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:05, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

"Cuisine of the Common Travel Area" would be technically correct, and technically better as it includes the UK, Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands! But it is not helpful to most readers and so that is not a serious suggestion. AlasdairW (talk) 21:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC)