Talk:New South Wales

I'm not quite sure how to interpret the districts here, but we could loosely use the boundaries from http://www.visitnsw.com.au/

Unfortunately that doesn't quite work for Central Tablelands (New South Wales) because Dubbo (and Lithgow) aren't usually considered part of it. However there's really no other places to put them. -- (WT-en) Hypatia 11:51, 16 Sep 2004 (EDT)

Having thought it over, I'm going to move Central Tablelands to Central West (which is a more usual name among the inhabitants, although visitnsw calls it "Central NSW"). -- (WT-en) Hypatia 11:53, 16 Sep 2004 (EDT)

Nine cities

Current criteria

Project:Geographical hierarchy#Dividing_geographical_units notes that we should list 7±2 things under headings like "Cities". So, we have 9 cities listed, here are the reasons why:

• Sydney is a world famous city, and contains most of New South Wales' population. Definitely #1 in terms of tourism and recognition.
• Newcastle and Wollongong are our largest regional centres.
• The other six cities are the top cities in New South Wales by population: Albury-Wodonga (even leaving out the Victorian half), Coffs Harbour, Port Macquarie, Tamworth, Tweed Heads, Wagga Wagga.

Discussion

Please discuss changes to the "Cities" listing here. (WT-en) Hypatia 22:04, 15 July 2006 (EDT)

At the moment, the cities aren't a good regional spread. Sydney, Newcastle and Wollongong all occupy the middle bit of the coast. Aside from those three (which I think are unavoidable definites), we have Coffs Harbour, Port Macquarie and Tweed Heads which are all on the north coast, and Albury-Wodonga and Wagga Wagga both in the south central/west Riverina area. (WT-en) Hypatia 22:04, 15 July 2006 (EDT)

Reviving a 14yo old post but I think Tweed Heads and Wagga Wagga aren't that popular or significant as Dubbo and they should be removed. SHB2000 (talk) 06:59, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Queanbeyan

Can someone who knows NSW find a home in one of the regions for Queanbeyan? --(WT-en) Evan 09:23, 14 December 2006 (EST)

Regions

There seems to be confusion as to whether the far north coast (Byron and surrounds) area fits under Northern Rivers or North Coast. Thoughts? Merge? (WT-en) Ronaldo123 19:00, 24 February 2009 (EST)

The Northern Rivers covers an area from the Queensland border, south at least as far as Grafton. By any definition the Northern Rivers has to include Byron. The North Coast could easily be considered anything north of the Hunter, all the way to the border, so there is definately going to be some overlap there. North Coast makes for a very large region, from Taree to the Tweed. However, leaving the North Coast and Northern Rivers as two separate regions is always going to cause confusion. If even locals don't know where the regions start and end, what chance travellers? --(WT-en) Inas 19:55, 24 February 2009 (EST)

I've reviewed the articles, and it is obvious that the intention was to make the regions up the coast from Sydney, be Central Coast, Hunter Valley, North Coast and then Northern Rivers. I've adjusted this article content accordingly. Doesn't mean we can't still make it better, but for now, it at least reads okay. --(WT-en) Inas 00:09, 25 February 2009 (EST)

I've drawn a quick region map, which does more to highlight the problems with the current regions, then it does to actually clarify anything. There are a couple of areas of the state definately not covered by any region. The regions close into city are so small, especially Southern Highlands, Central Coast, Blue mountains, that they are hard to show. I think the only way that this is going to work, is to do regions around Sydney, and the remainder of the state.  :::The regions around Sydney would be

• Central Coast
• Illawarra
• Blue Mountains
• Southern Highlands
• Sydney city

This makes sense to me and this could be a close up map, showing a few of the destinations and routes.

Then we have the regional regiona

• Far West
• Central Wwest
• Riverina
• New England
• Northern Rivers
• North Coast
• South Coast (incorporate Shoalhaven into this, which is really just Jarvis and Nowra)
• Snowy

We need to add a region for Albury, and add a region for Goulburn to Canberra & surrounds. --(WT-en) Inas 00:34, 27 February 2009 (EST)

Good to see the map. Back to the Byron related question, wouldn't most just consider the North Coast to be everything north of the Hunter, and within itself possibly halved into Mid North Coast and Northern Rivers? Also agreed South Coast should incorporate Shoalhaven area (perhaps as a subregion if it needs to). Along the lines of the BoM [1] the Albury-Goulburn could simply be called South West (New South Wales) which incorporates the more formal 'Southern Tablelands' and 'South West Slopes' (WT-en) Ronaldo123 07:34, 27 February 2009 (EST)

I agree, what is called North Coast, is really the mid-north coast. I wouldn't like to see another level in the hierarchy though - really. It is probably a bit misleading to have it labelled the North Coast (but I've seen worse). Do you think we should rename it? I agree with South West, incorporating Goulburn to Albury, excluding the Snowy. --(WT-en) Inas 22:20, 27 February 2009 (EST)

I think that the North Coast should be named the Mid North Coast (as is in the BOM site and others) [2]. The Northern Rivers area usually extends to south of Grafton in most regional maps. The South West sounds fine for incorporating Goulburn to Albury. (WT-en) Cgoodwin 23:47, 16 March 2009 (EDT)

Okay, North Coast will be renamed, and South West New South Wales will be created, according to the consensus above, in the next week or so. If anybody has any better suggestions, would be good make them now. I won't rename Northern Rivers for now. Nothing stopping us doing more updates later, if better divisions raise. --(WT-en) Inas 00:23, 20 March 2009 (EDT)

North Coast is now Mid-North Coast. --(WT-en) Inas 22:31, 26 March 2009 (EDT)

Canberra

The Canberra article indicates that it is located in this region, but this article seems to avoid mention of it in the Regions and Cities sections, and on the map. Shouldn't the Australian Capital Territory be a subregion of New South Wales (irrespective of the political distinction)? (WT-en) LtPowers 19:18, 21 July 2009 (EDT)

Yes. (WT-en) Jpatokal 07:28, 22 July 2009 (EDT)

I agree it sounds good, but I don't think it will ever work. It's like making Washington D.C. part of a Virginia region. From a visitors point of view it might make sense, but everyone who ever looks at it is just going to think it is a mistake, because the ACT isn't part of New South Wales, like Washington D.C. isn't part of Virginia. If we every did this we would need to rename the region New South Wales and the ACT. --(WT-en) Inas 20:49, 23 November 2011 (EST)

D.C. is coterminous with the city of Washington, so it's not directly comparable. Assuming, though, the federal district was about the size of a county, however, I would absolutely make it a subregion of Maryland. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:39, 24 November 2011 (EST)

Region Map

I've updated the region map to get rid of the holes, and make it correspond to the prose.

I kinda like this slow evolution of regions --(WT-en) Inas 20:43, 23 November 2011 (EST)

Hunter Valley

I think the Hunter Valley region and its subpages need a good re-work. Before I dive in I'd like to propose a change to the region structure. I think the overarching region should be Hunter (as it is referred to twice on this talk page already).

I think sub-regions of Hunter should then be:

• Hunter Valley
• Upper Hunter
• Port Stephens
• Barrington Tops

and then Greater Newcastle (?) or Newcastle and Lake Macquarie (?) or Newcastle, and Lake Macquarie separately. The current sub-region of Pokolbin should be changed to a town/village of Hunter Valley (technically a locality).

Thoughts? --tiimta (hello) 12:07, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see this before reorganizing since it wasn't on the Hunter talk page.

I flattened the structure so that Hunter is a region and everything below is a city.

There is potential content to build it up in the way you suggested, but with the present content I think this works better for now. --Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:00, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

New South Wales banners

I have been running a side project over the past weeks to slowly create banners for all the NSW regions. Only some of these banners below are mine (most of the good ones are from other people). I'm finding most CC images of Australia are rather boring, mostly relying on open empty landscapes.

New South Wales I don't think this is quite at the quality that we want for a state level article

Sydney

Blue Mountains - Not convinced by this one. I think it is an interesting picture that doesn't really work as a 7:1 banner. Suggest replacing

Central_Coast_(New_South_Wales) - best that I could find, although I'm sure a better one can be found

Hunter - it works, albeit a bit lifeless

Illawarra

Shoalhaven - it works, but rather generic looking empty beach

Southern_Highlands_(New_South_Wales)

Nice .... Central_West_(New_South_Wales)

Far_West_(New_South_Wales)

Mid-North_Coast

New_England_(New_South_Wales) - kind of interesting, although I wonder if it really shows off the region well?

Riverina

Snowy_Mountains - it works, and a view that one doesn't typically associate with Australia. Can't help thinking it could be more interesting though

South_Coast_(New_South_Wales) Not really a unique scene in Australia

Any thoughts on the diversity and how interesting each is would be appreciated. Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:03, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

As befits an open and empty country :) Jokes aside, unless there's more banners of kangaroos, koalas and wombats, and even then I'm not sure about that, there's not a whole lot of variety. Unsurprisingly, beaches are going to be favourite shots of photographers. The blues and greens and golds just stand out in contrast even for amateurs. -- torty3 (talk) 11:39, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

What to do with Shoalhaven region?

Is there a good reason why Shoalhaven and South_Coast_(New_South_Wales) are split? It is confusing because from a regional perspective Shoalhaven actually belongs inside South Coast. Wikipedia : w:City_of_Shoalhaven w:South_Coast_(New_South_Wales)

User:Inas (who created origional map), User:tiimta, User:torty3 ? Thanks! --Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:23, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't think there is any real designation of what is in the South Coast. And there is a density of attractions in the Shoalhaven. I guess that would have been my thinking.

I think Wikipedia is just someone else making stuff up, or copying the current tourist regions. I'm not sure there is any other basis for it.

The current division of NSW is fairly arbitrary. I can understand why people would have a problem with it, particular areas like the Southern Highlands including Goulburn, and the Riverina.

If there is an overall plan, then I have no problem with any region set proposed by anyone with an rough consensus, and enthusiasm to carry it through. I don't think there is anything special about the current. --Inas (talk) 03:09, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I think you are right. It is not clear where Wikipedia gets the definition form. I note that the VisitNSW website suggests that South Coast is basically everywhere south of Sydney until Victoria.

Is there perhaps a better name for the South Coast article? --Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:51, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

If we look at common usage, if someone told me they were going down the South Coast, and they only made it as far as the Berry, I'd think that was pretty pathetic.. I'm not sure... We could be bold, and do something like group the Wollongong and Shoalhaven articles into a Grand Pacific Drive article, it's certainly something touristy that links the region. We can then pick up the South Coast article in Jervis Bay and southwards. It also is a division between what you can achieve in a day-trip from Sydney and what needs more planning. IMO Nowra is a day-trip, and Jervis Bay, Batemans Bay is at least a weekend. --Inas (talk) 22:16, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Status of regions

I just completed an exercise to add a dynamic map to each region of New South Wales, adding towns and major attractions, which helps determine the quality of each.

• Sydney - Static map already used. Generally rather unwieldy, but no changes for now.
• Blue Mountains - 8 towns defined. I still feel that Blue Mountains is more of a destination in itself rather than a region, but the region article looks fine.
• Central Coast - 6 towns defined. Could use a few more added.
• Hunter - 6 towns and 6 attractions. I think this is a pretty good spread for the region.
• Illawarra - 5 towns defined. Looks a bit bare with no inland destinations yet.
• Shoalhaven - 5 towns defined, and should 'possibly' be merged into the Southern_Highlands_(New_South_Wales), Illawarra or South Coast regions.
• Southern Highlands - I find the boundaries of this region a bit confusing, but otherwise deals with the area around Canberra well.

• Central West - large region with good coverage to the south and poor coverage to the north
• Far West - the outback is probably the least developed region (I guess it is hard to get to) - we should work on this more
• Mid-North Coast - Good amount of listings, however the region article itself needs some urgent work to fill in the sections
• New England - 7 towns. Seems OK.
• Northern Rivers - 11 towns, but region article needs some work
• Riverina - At 16 towns, this is the most busy region so far defined. Probably needs some work to make it more accessible but no splitting is required.
• Snowy Mountains - Very small region, but given it is about Australian mountains (there are not many) it probably deserves its own article.
• South Coast - Fairly well defined.

--Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:41, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

New South Wales..

Swept in from the pub

Should the warning on the article be revised, in light of the very much increased risk? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 16:55, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Go ahead! Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:07, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I tried to add some info from https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/fire-information/fires-near-me. I think it's best to give a general warning here and direct readers to the website of the fire service for real time information. Ypsilon (talk) 19:59, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Central West region - map error

Hi all,

The northern boundary of the Central West region is wrong. The Central West does not extend all the way north to the Queensland border.

The Walgett Shire LGA and Brewarrina Shire LGA are considered part of the Far West (New South Wales) region, according to Wikipedia, and these shires do adjoin the border between New South Wales and Queensland. Therefore the top third or top quarter of the Central West region on the map should be changed to reflect that this part of New South Wales is in fact in the Far West. The Central West region is only that part of New South Wales that is in the centre, west of Sydney.

This error is causing confusion in the description of where places on the western edge of the New England region actually are. Narrabri (Narrabri Shire LGA) and Moree (Moree Plains Shire LGA) are certainly not in the Central West. These places have no connection to towns like Parkes, Forbes, Orange, Dubbo, etc. - they are part of New England, and have more affinity with places like Tamworth, Inverell, etc.

Could anyone please fix the regions map? I tried to myself, but my Photoshop skills don't extend to fixing this kind of image file.

Thanks in advance,

KevRobbAU (talk) 09:08, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

@KevRobbAU:, unfortunately it's not my map so I don't have copyright status to it. But Sapphire Coast is also missing here. The south coast region doesn't border Victoria despite what Sydneysiders call it. SHB2000 (talk) 10:06, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Sapphire Coast not included here?

@Andrewssi2: Although Sydneysiders and any other person would call Bega Valley Shire part of the south coast, the locals and information signs all have Sapphire Coast and not South Coast. Infact even, Tourist Drive 11's alternate name is also called Sapphire Coast Tourist Drive. SHB2000 (talk) 10:04, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Flood warning

Is this still needed, or should it be removed? Ground Zero (talk) 13:12, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I've removed it. The recovery process is still ongoing but the actual floods have ended for now. Gizza ^(roam) 00:14, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

It's still a problem in Merimbula and Eden (New South Wales). SHB2000 (talk) 05:15, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Penrith, NSW

Does anyone here know anything about Penrith, NSW? I would like to have information on the Blind Chef Cafe added. --Apisite (talk) 23:55, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

@Apisite: the relevant page for the cafe is Sydney/Outer West, which includes the greater western hubs of Blacktown and Penrith. Gizza ^(roam) 00:15, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@Apsite: - yep, can do. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:19, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Choice of "Other Destinations"...

I'm not sure about what sticks out to foreigners and interstate visitors, but I think the other destinations section is not the best choice one could make. I thought I might propose a list, but I genuinely want to hear what everyone else thinks. Below is mine.

1. Blue Mountains National Park - world heritage listed national park, and significant mountain to indigenous Australians
2. Dorrigo National Park - one of the largest Gondwana rainforests left standing today
3. Lord Howe Island - the existing one is good enough
4. Mount Warning National Park - the world's largest extinct volcano
5. Sydney Harbour National Park - a harbour side national park, home to a lot of WWII era military fortifications, and is one of the last homes of the endangered bandicoots
6. Jenolan Caves - some of the world's most finest karst landscapes
7. Mungo National Park - home to the world's oldest human bodies
8. Jervis Bay - home to some of the world's whitest beaches
9. Kosciuszko National Park - the tallest mountain on the Australian mainland

What I believe not to include:

1. Wollemi National Park - the location of the Wollemi pines are not revealed to the public to preserve it's nature
2. Warrumbungles - not a popular spot for interstate or foreigners, and it's been a no go zone recently (voluntarily, not closed) due to the mice plague
3. Oxley Wild Rivers National Park - not unique to NSW. Plus "has several locations where 4WDs are permitted." most NSW national parks allow 4WDs, and I think Dorrigo National Park is a more better and friendlier spot to visit.

Please feel free to give your thoughts out, as this is quite a major change in what's here. I'm hoping that my new list provides a good variety of places, and not so coastal centred. Thanks, SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 04:46, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree that the current list could use an overhaul. I just find it hard to think of a 'Top 10' for NSW.

I would disagree on the stated rationale for removing Wollemi National Park and Oxley Wild Rivers National Park. You don't (and can't) visit the Wollemi National Park for the pines but rather natural beauty, and with regards to Oxley, plenty of great destinations in Australia are frankly inaccessible to your average tourist, but then again we are not serving a specific type of visitor. Additionally the mouse plague in Warrumbungles is temporary and shouldn't be the rationale for its exclusion, especially given the whole country is mostly off limits for international visitors right now.

I hope you see that as constructive criticism! I appreciate your efforts on this. Andrewssi2 (talk) 09:08, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I really wanted to replace it so we had the following

• 1 Metro National Park
• 1 Gondwana Rainforest
• 1 Sacred Aboriginal site
• 1 Outback site
• 1 area with White sand beaches
• 1 snowy mountains area
• 1 Island off the mainland
• 1 area showing some of the finest karst landscapes
• 1 other one, and in this one, I thought to use Mt. Warning

Another reason why I didn't want Wollemi and Oxley Rivers is that both these places are very similar, I've been to both of them, and I think Dorrigo is a better subst. than Oxley Rivers/Wollemi, don't get me wrong though, both these places are an absolute beauty (infact, it was a difficult choice for me to not include Wollemi). And yes, I do see this as constructive criticism. Cheers, SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 09:47, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Since we have no other opinions, I'm just changing it, until we have someone to oppose the change. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 06:08, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

• 1 Blue Mountains National Park - world heritage listed national park, and significant mountain to indigenous Australians
• 2 Dorrigo National Park - one of the largest Gondwana rainforests left standing today
• 3 Jenolan Caves - some of the world's most finest karst landscapes
• 4 Jervis Bay - home to some of the world's whitest beaches
• 5 Kosciuszko National Park - the tallest mountain on the Australian mainland
• 6 Lord Howe Island - the existing one is good enough
• 7 Mount Warning National Park - the world's largest extinct volcano
• 8 Mungo National Park - home to the world's oldest human bodies
• 9 Sydney Harbour National Park - a harbour side national park, home to a lot of WWII era military fortifications, and is one of the last homes of the endangered bandicoots

Opinion requested in Talk:New South Wales

Swept in from the pub

Hi there, I'd just like to hear your opinion on Talk:New South Wales about the "other destinations" section. Thanks! SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 05:05, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

More than 9 cities

@SHB2000 there are ten cities breaking the 7+2 rule Tai123.123 (talk) 13:54, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

If I had to remove one, that'd be Albury-Wodonga given that there's nothing much on the banks of the Murray River. Not to forget that half the twin-city isn't even in NSW ;) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:57, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok, as a non-Australian it was one of the cities I didn’t recognize also why does this article lack both dynamic and static maps? Tai123.123 (talk) 14:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

The static map was removed because of the large amount of factual errors that KevRobbAU/KevRobbSCO and I brought up. To dynamic, not sure why. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 14:17, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I would remove Albury too. It is only famous as a border town like Tweed Heads. Gizza ^(roam) 02:30, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

I think we need to get the dynamic map in place until there is a static map or the current one is edited. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 02:34, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Done. To the static map, I'll see where the border goes, but I'll add a dynamic map in the meantime. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:38, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Mapshapes

Please ignore this thread. Just using it for personal reference, as I try and get the mapshapes up. Quite a big task, but done half of it.

• Northern Rivers - Done
• Mid-North Coast - Done
• Snowy Mountains - Done
• Outback New South Wales - Done
• Central Coast (New South Wales) - Done
• Sydney - Done, although bits of it overlap with the Blue Mountains
• Illawarra - Done
• Shoalhaven - Done
• Riverina - Done
• South Coast (New South Wales) Done
• New England (New South Wales) Done
• Sapphire Coast Done
• Central West (New South Wales) Done
• Southern Highlands (New South Wales) Done
• Blue Mountains Done
• Hunter Done

Need to do

• None

--SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:42, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Removing static map

Static map

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• /0/ids: String value found, but an array is required
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• /0/service: Does not have a value in the enumeration ["page"]
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Removing the static map because it looks very different to the dynamic map and doesn't reflect our region structure used and the dynamic map is now complete (comparison on the right). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:58, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I see. But the solution is to edit and replace the static map. Static maps are standard in region articles (or in this case, one for a state). Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:05, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

This one isn't editable because it's in a png format. If I were able to make them, then I'd have made it from the start. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:12, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Banner

This one is a tricky one. NSW isn't really known for one specific thing. It is very much like Ontario or California. But I'm not very pleased with the background fog, So here's the few I've come up with.

Banner 0

---

These two are of Bombo Headland Quarry Geological Site. It's a pretty spectacular site when you're there, but as a banner, it doesn't look that great.

Banner 1

Banner 2

---

These two are of Dorrigo National Park, one of the state's most lush rainforests. Unfortunately, that's something people think more about Queensland, not New South Wales.

Banner 3

Banner 4

---

This one is of Oxley Wild Rivers National Park, which is nearby which looks more like an NSW rainforest. But similar to Bombo, it's a pretty spectacular site when you're there, but as a banner, it doesn't look that great.

Banner 5

---

These ones are of Jervis Bay, which has some of the whitest beaches in the world. Double checked that these photos are in NSW, not Jervis Bay Territory (which is a federal territory, not part of NSW)

Banner 6

Banner 7

---

This one depicts a boardwalk in Urunga. The wetland scene's fairly common in NSW.

Banner 8

---

This one is being used on Greater Blue Mountains Area. It could be an alternative to the banner in Blue Mountains, although the existing banner there has been added to the star standard banner list by SelfieCity.

Banner 9

---

These next three were candidates in Australian Alps. This is probably not the best of the state.

Banner 10

Banner 11

Banner 12

---

This is of the scenic cableway in Katoomba.

Banner 13

Banner 14

--SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:01, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Banner 15

Added a fifteenth banner. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:02, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Banner 16

Added a sixteenth banner. This is probably the most representative. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:06, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

As there's no comments, I'm just going to use banner 16. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 03:22, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

My comment is that it would seem that people are not willing to compare 16 banners. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:14, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm guessing we've never even had a banner discussion with this many banners before ;-). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:29, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

And probably never will, because no-one is likely to participate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

You may get that many candidates for an article like Ontario, Quebec or California where the jurisdictions are not specifically known for one certain thing. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:14, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm suggesting that people won't be willing to look at that many images, so if a discussion is desired, it's probably not a good strategy to offer that many choices. 5-6 may be about the limit. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:18, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Cutting down the regions

Right now, there are 16 regions here, which is a lot to comfortably navigate through. As a start, I propose we create a new Southeastern New South Wales page which includes the South Coast, Sapphire Coast and the Snowy Mountains. I also propose to rename South Coast to "Bateman Bay Region", as there's a lot of ambiguity of where the South Coast starts and ends. Other comments? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:56, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Based on my experience, travellers are likely to hear the term "South Coast" in New South Wales. So if there's a coherent travel region that roughly corresponds to the area people mean when they say "South Coast", it would be good to title an article about that region accordingly. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:23, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

South Coast is a bit of an ambiguous term, and it's a term that I'd want to avoid for a similar reason why there is no North Coast article. I did a trip from Sydney to Melbourne via the coast a few years ago, and it had several different meanings.

visitNSW classifies "South Coast" as anything south of Sydney, that is not the Bega Valley Shire (which is a part of the Sapphire Coast) while the ABC classify anything that's south of Shoalhaven as part of SE New South Wales. However, we already have separate articles for Illawarra and Shoalhaven, which includes JBT, so based on our regions, it only covers the Eurobodalla Shire, which is only a third of the size of the original South Coast. We also have the rather small Snowy Mountains region that definitely won't fit in the South Coast, and you'd need to head to Tasmania to see snow on the beach ;-).

Maybe later on, we could also move the seven districts in "Sydney and surrounds" to a Greater Sydney page, bringing that down to eight. I'm unsure why Norfolk Island is breadcrumbed under here, but that's a discussion for another day. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:42, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough, I'll defer to your judgement. It would be good to explain the ambiguity of the term at least, because travelers will hear it. Maybe in New South Wales#Understand. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:32, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

North Coast will probably need to be explained too. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:43, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

I'll create the new region soon, but I spent today trying to make a static map for NSW, and here it is. It took about half a day, but the result was worth it (cc @Ikan Kekek: regarding Special:Diff/4331223: now this article will have a static map once I create the new region in a few days time). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:28, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Great! Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:53, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Actually, instead of Bateman Bay region, what about "Far South Coast"? It's not a term used in daily speech, but at least it's better than an ambiguous term. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

A static map of SE NSW

I've now made a Southeastern New South Wales static map – this one's probably got to be my favorite out of all the maps I've made. @Ikan Kekek, Mx. Granger: just wondering, but how would you interpret the B23 and the B72 stacked on top of each other? (I'm curious to know so I can consider other alternate designs for future maps that I'll make) --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

It's obvious to me that those two route numbers share that stretch of road; I'd be shocked if that's not what you meant. Very clear map; thanks and congratulations! Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:44, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm quite pleased with what Inkscape can do and thank you for the compliment :-). As for the two route numbers, yes the two route numbers share the same stretch of road. The only reason I asked was because in Victoria, you may see two routes going parallel to each other (e.g. M1 and C433 or M39 and C392) that are almost indistinguishable on a map and I wasn't exactly sure whether this is common elsewhere (from what I noticed, in the US it's not in the Southwest, Pacific Northwest, California or Florida but I have no idea what's the situation elsewhere). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:39, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

To me, the Snowy Mountains is very different to the two coastal regions being merged. I think most New South Welshmen won't amalgamate them together when thinking of travel regions. But I'm also mindful that the total number of regions in NSW is quite high. Gizza ^(roam) 02:12, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree that they're very different in nature and they're often visited in separate trips, at least by Sydneysiders. But all three regions are not very large in both area and population when compared to other regions, and while most of us won't amalgamate them, grouping them is the only way I can think of to bring down the regions. But yeah, while NSW does have a population of over 8 million, only about 35 per cent of New South Welshman live outside Sydney, and while it does have an area twice the size of California, Outback New South Wales seems to handle that, but otherwise I see no real reason to have so many bottom-level regions; it especially gets tricky when updating warning/caution boxes given a) the state article is too broad or b) the same information will have to be updated on several pages and duplication can cause confusion. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 07:07, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

@Mx. Granger: A little late, but I've partially implemented this proposal. I made an attempt to explain the ambiguities of "South Coast" on our newly created extraregion, but do you think anything else needs to be mentioned? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 12:27, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks – I think the explanation at South Coast (New South Wales) is pretty clear. I've made a small adjustment to give readers some idea of where the Princes Motorway begins. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:27, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Greater Sydney regions

A static map of Greater Sydney

Now time for a new Greater Sydney region. Unfortunately, unlike Greater Brisbane, the boundaries are a bit vague, but basically the Greater Sydney region that I propose covers Sydney, the Central Coast, the Illawarra, the Blue Mountains and the Shires of Wollondilly and Wingecarribee in the Southern Highlands. The rest of the Southern Highlands, would under this proposal, be split into a new article called Southern Tablelands, using LGAs that Wikipedia uses (the regions do follow municipal boundaries, but these municipal boundaries are an unofficial way that Wikipedia uses to divide NSW up). What I also propose is that Royal National Park to be a region of its own, which albeit small, fits in perfectly. It's not exactly a part of Sydney nor is it a part of the Illawarra, and while it is currently breadcrumbed under Sydney, it is not mentioned in the districts section. This would further bring the regions down to a more manageable length.

For a quick reference on how the regions will look, see User:SHB2000/Greater Syd. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:52, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

On second thought, I think Royal NP is a bit too small for a region. Anyway, here's a static map of the proposed regions on the right for reference. What does everyone else think? @Joshlama1, Andrewssi2, DaGizza:? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:33, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

"Sydney and surrounds", which is what is currenly used on this page, would be a more accurate name to describe this region than Greater Sydney. Most people living in the Blue Mountains, Wollongong, Central Coast, Bowral, etc. don't considered themselves to be a part of Sydney. Gizza ^(roam) 02:12, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

I suppose so. The only reason I slightly favored "Greater Sydney" was just to avoid "and" in the title but otherwise Sydney and surrounds works for me. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia)

A (minor) milestone

As of July 12, 2022 00:20 AEST all articles breadcrumbed under New South Wales now have a custom banner, one step closer to getting NSW to star status (which btw is one of my long-term projects that I don't expect to complete until 2025 or even 26). Thank you to everyone who's helped achieve this. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 14:22, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Norfolk Island is not a part of New South Wales, and has not been so since 1844

is not a part of New South Wales, and has not been so since 1844 so I'm confused as to why it's breadcrumbed here. I don't really care whether it's breadcrumbed under Australia or Melanesia, but not here. Other opinions as to where NFI should be breadcrumbed? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 14:36, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I thought Australia reduced Norfolk Island's autonomy and annexed it to New South Wales in 2015. The dog2 (talk) 16:20, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Looking at some old news articles, I can see where the confusion arose from. While the Australian government did reduce its autonomy, it's now an external territory somewhat like Christmas Island or the Cocos (Keeling) Islands, but instead of WA law, NSW law applies to the island. In federal elections, NFI is a part of Canberra's Division of Bean, somewhat like how Christmas Island and the Cocos (Keeling) Islands are a part of Division of Lingiari, but nowhere does it say in w:Norfolk Island#Reduced autonomy 2016 that it was annexed to NSW as it's still an external territory. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:17, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't realise that the people of Christmas Island and Cocos Islands get to vote in Australian federal elections. I always thought that they are basically colonies, where the people have Australian passports but do not have the right to vote, much like the way the United States treats Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa the U.S. Virgin Islands and the Northern Mariana Islands (where they have American passports, but cannot vote in presidential elections unless they move to one of the 50 states or D.C.). Oh well, there's always something new to learn. OK, if it was just a misunderstanding, then go ahead and change the breadcrumbs, as well as the prose in the Norfolk Island article. The dog2 (talk) 23:26, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Not a problem. There was quite a misunderstanding a few years back so that does kinda explain it all. As to the Indian Ocean territories, I believe most of the population wanted to integrate with Australia just a few years after the islands were transferred from Singapore and so they did. Prior to integration, I believe the islands were like U.S. organized territories but with a tiny population. That said, Norfolk Island's administration may change as the Labor government just won the recent federal election, but it doesn't seem likely, at least, for the timebeing --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:51, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

In the case of the U.S., residents of the territories do not get to vote at all in federal elections. They are allowed to vote in local elections, but that's it. They do not get to vote for the president, and do not have any representation in Congress (apart from a "delegate" in the lower house who has no voting rights). People resident in D.C. can vote for President, but do not have representation in Congress. The dog2 (talk) 00:01, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Isn't that why many in D.C. want D.C. to become a state? (though I doubt that'll happen since the US constitution explicitly states that the capital cannot be in a state) SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:07, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Of course it is! And the constitution does not say how large the federal district has to be, so no constitutional amendment is needed for D.C. other than some federal buildings to become a state, but there would have to be a constitutional amendment to deprive the new rump federal district of 1 Electoral College vote. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:56, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

There have been some similar movements for the ACT to become a state, but that'll never happen given all its federal government buildings are scattered throughout the territory. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 01:05, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Not necessarily a problem, just make all of those the federal district. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:48, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

ACT becoming a state would also be really redundant given it's completely surrounded by NSW. It already has its own territorial government, the only differences are that the federal government has greater control, fewer senators (but 3 for a city of 400,000 is a lot already). I could see the Northern Territory becoming a state, but it's population is only 40 per cent of Tasmania's and again, has its own territorial government. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 04:01, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, 3 senators doesn't sound bad. I'm sure DC would be happy with that. :-) Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:50, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Breadcrumb Norfolk Island under Australia, not Melanesia. Nurg (talk) 04:46, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Nurg. Ground Zero (talk) 01:09, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm also for breadcrumbing NF under Australia to be consistent with CXI and CKI. The only reason why I haven't done that yet is because we'd need to adjust the static map (and I'll do that when I get a few spare hours in my hands). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:51, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Finally, Done. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 01:35, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Banner II

I know there was one before, but this one's gonna be short. Just two, that's it. Current is similar to the banner used in Wollumbin National Park. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Current

New

Both are very beautiful views, but I would say new, because it has more diversity (NSW has both open farmlands and mountains, right?). However, it looks weird when I enlarge it, like a painting — was the source image edited much? If there is no workaround to fix this, I'd have to say current. Vidimian (talk) 23:23, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

P.S. I just realized this is a thread more than a month old, after posting the above comment. Vidimian (talk) 23:26, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

The existing banner is more conventionally beautiful and has a better composition to my eyes, so all things being equal, I would favor it, but I don't know which image is more representative of the state. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:41, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Completely forgot about this thread 😂, but to answer both of your questions, NSW certainly has mountains (Eastern New England, Blue Mountains, Southern Highlands (New South Wales), Snowy Mountains and the Upper Hunter are all mountainous) and there's plenty of farmland in the central and southern parts of the state. I don't know whether it was edited, though. My sole reason for wanting a new banner was because the current's source image is the same FP used in Wollumbin National Park. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:24, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, we don't want that. I'm not sure what the best solution is, though. Any other options for banners? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:41, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Given two virtually identical banners are used in the two articles, let's go with the new banner for this article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 02:01, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: There are, but I'm not sure whether you'll enjoy picking one out of the 16 banners listed above ;-). SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 08:41, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Maybe pick the ones you consider best (like 6 or fewer)? Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:40, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Done. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 10:22, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Two subheads under `Regions`

Feel free to ignore me, I don't know this area at all, but I was confused by the Regions section. My only suggestions are maybe renaming "Sydney and surrounds" to "Near Sydney", and adjusting the colors of these regions to be similar tints? It might also help to use the standard color templates for both sections, this template for example: {{stdColor|t6}}. Maybe move the copy from the Regions header into the subheaders? Something like: "These regions are all within three hours' drive or train trip from Sydney" under "Near Sydney" and "Visiting these regions will take additional time and planning" to "Further afield"? IDK that's just what came to mind. The article looks great overall! ButteBag (talk) 21:35, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

@ButteBag: when I first saw this, I too was confused, but thought it was done because there are way too many regions, more than the recommended number per WV:7±2 (perhaps @Andrewssi2: might know why?). I made a proposal to categorise all regions listed in "Sydney and surrounds" (except the Hunter and Shoalhaven) into one article, like what I did with Southeastern New South Wales, but the draft never materialised further than User:SHB2000/Sydney and surrounds. If that does ever turn into a viable article, I suppose the two sections could be merged. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 06:49, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

@SHB2000, oh wow, yeah that page in your userspace makes a lot more sense to me. Oof, but yeah when you click into Sydney, we also have "Greater Sydney", which is... different? I have no idea what to do about it, but it is confusing in its current state to someone unfamiliar with the area. Thanks for all your work on these articles! ButteBag (talk) 13:46, 1 December 2022 (UTC)