Talk:Bikol phrasebook

Extra stuff, what to do with it?

This phrasebook has some content not part of our standard phrasebook template. Should it be left in the article or deleted? ϒpsilon (talk) 09:12, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Anyone?

Also, the history of the article looks rather interesting. Over the last year it has been edited by several new users (who haven't edited any other article than this phrasebook), practically for one day only and then the that user has vanished into thin air. ϒpsilon (talk) 08:01, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

What content are you talking about keeping or deleting? I added quite a few things to the Malay phrasebook that aren't in the generic template example, especially in the "Eating" section, because eating is such an important pastime in Malaysia and it's really good to know all those different words for important foodstuffs and ways of cooking. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:17, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

The article is slowly turning into a dictionary, from Professions to "How to curse in Bihol". ϒpsilon (talk) 08:23, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Curse words should be removed. Professions might be OK, but surely, we don't need "drunkard" as a profession! Yeah, I think that's too much non-basic content. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:26, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Curses section deleted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:06, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

There are few books about Bikol language here in the Philippines. I just want to add more information about the language for others to see how this language sounds like. Mayon V (talk) 10:19, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

That's what Wiktionary is for. This is a travel guide. We have basic phrasebooks for travelers who are beginning speakers, not books. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:41, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

I haven`t explored wiktionary yet. Can you help me? Mayon V (talk) 01:47, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I haven't, either, but a little web searching produced this link. Click it, and work on as complete a dictionary of Bikol as you can! Meanwhile, you could help here by producing the most useful phrasebook for relatively short-term (as in a few weeks) travelers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:37, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

You can add Bikol words with English definitions to the English Wiktionary too! Here are some examples of Bikol entries: burabod, daguldol, hagbayon. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:44, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Do you agree that this Bikol phrasebook is already a useable article? Mayon V (talk) 02:25, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Based on Wikivoyage:Phrasebook status, I think so. —Granger (talk · contribs) 06:05, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Bikol phrasebook

Swept in from the pub

Can someone who knows the language check out the edits made by a new user. This could be improvements and corrections but I know nothing about this subject to make a judgment. --Traveler100 (talk) 12:33, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

The article needs some serious pruning, and the user who's added the new content needs to brought up to speed on the scope of our site. Wikivoyage phrasebooks are intended for travellers, not language learners undertaking serious study. Many of the new entries the user has added can be handily described as not travel-relevant. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:21, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Seems like some expressions aren't that common at all, yeah. But no-one has informed him. I'll post about this thread on his user talk page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:49, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Somethig definitely needs to be done. This is our third most-viewed mainspace article this month. For one reason or another, many people are finding the site through this page. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 19:21, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Not for example Paris, New York, Thailand, or Japanese phrasebook but a phrasebook for a language with 2.5 million speakers is our third most viewed article? Why?

Per the talk page the article was already back in 2016 considerably longer than a normal phrasebook (at that point it wasn't considered a problem) and back then "Over the last year it has been edited by several new users (who haven't edited any other article than this phrasebook), practically for one day only and then the that user has vanished into thin air.". This has occured afterwards too.

I can't say if there's anything wrong with this but it seems very weird, don't you think? --Ypsilon (talk) 19:42, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Definitely weird. I have no explanation. Maybe it was linked somewhere. Maybe it's a joke article full of vulgarities and makes its rounds on Bicol social media. Maybe Bicolanos habitually look up their own language, and this article is featured prominently in search results.

Given that the second most-viewed article is Hyderabad, which is not generally the biggest international destination, but does have a very large population, the latter explanation does make some sense.

Whatever's going on, our article outdoes the corresponding Wikipedia article in pageviews by a factor of six, so we should probably address the issue. I would support some kind of move to Wiktionary or Wikibooks and a reset of the article to its last-good state, removing anything not conceivably travel-related. Thoughts? ARR8 (talk | contribs) 20:00, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

The article has always been popular, this year there has been about 10% more readers than last year. When I searched on Google for "Bikol Phrasebook", it came up first. Our page is 5 times longer than the other site. It appears to be a language that has been overlooked by the normal phrasebook publishers - Amazon didn't have anything, which is odd for a language spoken by 2.5 million people. AlasdairW (talk) 21:26, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Maybe instead of cutting out stuff that attracts readers, we should consider adding a special announcement: "Are you familiar with Luzon and similar areas? Please help us by improving the article!" WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:37, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't think that there is much need to cut the phrasebook down. It would be more valuable to ensure that the introduction has good links to other articles, including the phrasebooks for other languages spoken nearby, so that those who read this as the first page on this site are encouraged to stay. I tried a few of the longer phrases in Google translate, which doesn't recognise Bikol, but gave approximate translations from Filipino or Cebuano, this gave no cause for concern although there were some differences - "I don't eat beef." became "I do not have a cow". There is a Central Bikol Wikipedia which has had recent edits, but may not have much content. AlasdairW (talk) 21:24, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

We've been down this road umpteen times before. No matter how long or detailed or well-written or widely read an article is, our scope is what it is. Our travel phrasebooks are intended to be travel phrasebooks, not resources for serious language learners. If you want to argue that we should change policy to allow for an expanded purview for our phrasebooks, this is not the place or way to do it (that would be Talk:Phrasebooks). And given that many Wikivoyagers have already expressed concerns about how difficult it is to confirm the veracity of information in phrasebooks for languages none of us speak, i.e. when it comes time to nominate one for Destination of the Month, I wouldn't expect the community to get too excited about the idea of opening the floodgates for ever more numerous and grammatically complex material to creep into our phrasebook articles. ARR8's suggestion has my support. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:33, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

I have slightly trimmed the phrasebook, mainly removing phrases that didn't seem to be in the spirit of Wikivoyage:Sex tourism policy, although medical use of the phrases would be acceptable. The phrasebook is 49k long, 40k is more typical phrasebook length although German is 66k. The list of words and phases is perhaps a little long, but it is not obvious what to remove - e.g. "Merry Christmas" may not be standard but is something I have said when travelling. AlasdairW (talk) 20:53, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Trim the phrasebook?

[unindent] Well, let's just look at some expressions that actually should be there, and how there are problems:

Good day.

Marhay na aldaw.

Dyos marhay na aldaw

Marhay na pagka-aldaw

Good morning.

Marhay na aga.

Dyos marhay na aga

Marhay na pagka-aga

Good noon.

Marhay na udto.

Dyos marhay na udto.

Marhay na pagka-udto.

Good afternoon.

Marhay na hapon.

Dyos marhay na hapon.

Marhay na pagkahapon.

Good evening.

Marhay na banggí.

Dyos marháy na banggí.

Marhay na pagkabanggí.

Do we really need 3 different ways to say all of these things? When would you use or expect to hear one, rather than the other?

Also, unnecessary words and expressions for a basic phrasebook:

Happy birthday.

Maugmang Compleaño.

Maugmang Kaaldawan

Merry Christmas.

Maugmang Pasko.

Happy New Year.

Maugmang Bàgong Taon.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Maugmang Pasko asin Mauswag na Bàgong Taon.

Valentines Day.

Aldaw nin Pagkamuot.

nickname.

lulô.

gahà.

Unnecessary unless literally everyone has a nickname, so that you'd be asked "What is your nickname" by any Bikol-speaker.

This is it.

Iyó na iní.

This is really it.

Iyó na nanggad ini.

Iyó na man nanggad ini.

Amo na ini (Bicol Sorsogon)

We really need both these expressions? Also, "This is it" is an ambiguous expression. Is what? The place you set out for? The Real Thing, Coke?

good life.

marhay na buhay.

And I hope you have one, too, but that's a basic expression?

Shut up!

Halo.

Halo daw.

Humalo ka.

Hilom daw

OK, a rude expression, right? And what are the differences between the 4 different translations?

Forgive me.

Patawada ako.

I'm sorry.

Pasinsya na tabì.

When would you use the first one? Is it necessary?

Once upon a time.

Kan inot na panahon.

Kadtóng panahon.

Sadtong panahon.

For the fairy tale traveller?

Thank you for your trust. See you again tomorrow.

Dyos mábalos sa saindong pagtitiwalà. Maghirilingan kita liwat sa aga. (formal)

Salamat sa saindong pagtitiwala. Maghirilingan kita giraray sa aga. (casual)

Maybe this is a culturally important expression, but it would require explanation.

The section on "Toned speeches" looks advanced and should probably be removed.

player.

parakawát.

pailor.

paratahì.

What kind of player? A ball player? An actor? A musician?

And is that a tailor?

Otherwise, the Professions section looks OK.

Under "Parts of the body":

saliva.

liwoy.

lawoy. (Northern Catanduanes)

Saliva isn't a part of the body nor is it a basic word. I doubt the words for "eyebrow" and "eyelashes" are really needed in a basic phrasebook, either.

finger.

guramóy.

thumb.

tangan.

fore finger.

murô.

index finger.

gigís.

"Finger(s)" is all that's needed at this level. I don't remember the words for different fingers in French or Italian and got along just fine in France and Italy.

sole.

rapandapán.

legs.

tabáy.

nape.

luong.

Legs, yes, obviously. But the others seem of minor significance.

back of the knee.

lukunlukunan.

Do we even have a word for this part in English?

pimples.

punggód.

moustache.

bigote.

beared.

barabás.

body hair.

barbón.

skin dirt.

ugsóng.

semen.

kasít

None of these are necessary, IMO.

promise.

panugâ.

tugâ.

Not a basic word, IMO.

tangled.

gubót.

charcoal.

uring.

earthquake.

línog.

means.

paagi.

What meaning of "means" is this? Money? Meaning? And the rest aren't basic words.

whole world.

bilog na kinàban.

new world.

bàgong kinàban.

soul.

kalág.

drunken.

buyóng. (Bicol-Legazpi)

burát. (Bicol-Naga)

Hingaw. (Northern Catanduanes)

bad luck.

kadimalasan.

truth.

katotoohan

kahostohan. (Northern Catanduanes)

thorn.

tunók.

footprint/trace.

girà.

giok. (Northern Catanduanes)

All questionable, but "truth" could be useful.

Is it not clear that we could go through the phrasebook, eliminating a bunch of words and expressions and flagging others for clarification, both on the English words' meanings and why 2-4 alternatives are given in Bikol? And the problem is that Josh Rayver, while diligently doing his own thing, has, as far as I've seen, totally disregarded any attempts to communicate with him or solicit comments from him. Therefore, if the rest of us decide to act, we are likely to have to do so on our own. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:37, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Generally I agree with you. If a phrasebook gets too long it becomes hard to find the phrase that you need. I do disagree on some of the specifics of the list above:

• Good Noon only makes sense if usage explained - but remove it if it is only valid exactly at noon, keep 3 "Good day" phrases, but only the first of all the others, as there is a clear pattern.
• "Earthquake" should be kept if they are a danger here.
• "Merry Christmas" is useful if travelling on 25 Dec in a country that observes it, but I would be unlikely to say "Happy Birthday" to a local without another local prompting.
• I take "Shut up" to be "Silence!".

I thought that I had removed "semen" in an earlier edit. AlasdairW (talk) 21:44, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

I didn't suggest removing "Good noon"; I asked why we need 3 ways to say it. That should be clarified. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:47, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

I am suggesting removing "Good noon" as it is not a common phrase in English. I don't think it is a phrase I would use unless I was greeting somebody as the clock was striking. For all the other greetings, I am suggesting keeping the three "Good day" phrases and trimming all the other to one phrase. AlasdairW (talk) 19:04, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

It might really mean "Good midday", which has a Malay equivalent, "Selamat tengahari", which is very standard and refers to the whole middle of the day, not just noon itself. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:04, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

I would guess that's how it's used too. I think the fundamental problem here is that we don't seem to have a Bikol speaker engaging in this discussion and responding to these critiques and questions. Without someone who speaks the language participating in the discussion, our ability to address these issues is limited. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:38, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Yep. Maybe we should block Josh Rayver for 24 hours the next time he logs on, insisting that he address the discussion here and on his user talk page? I would support that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:02, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Should we follow up on any of this? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:49, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ikan Kekek: Sorry I didn't see this until just now. I blocked Josh Rayver for 24 hours on August 2nd with the comment "You need to answer the messages on your user talk page and at Talk:Bikol phrasebook". He hasn't re-emerged since, either to answer those messages or to add to the phrasebook, and to be honest I'm not even sure he's aware he was blocked, as his contribution pattern is to edit prolifically in short bursts but with long periods of inactivity in between. In any event, I'm fully on board with applying the escalating user blocks procedure until we receive some meaningful communication from this user, but I'd say the next offense should be two weeks, as I'm afraid a three-day ban might pass by unnoticed just like the recent 24-hour one might have. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:20, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm on board with that. I did notice the block. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:54, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Actually, Ikan, I have a better idea. At this point, we're blocking User:Josh Rayver on sight for any edit that's not an answer to the messages we've left him on his user talk page and/or here, am I right? If so, rather than setting a block of an arbitrary length and guessing whether he'll even notice it, why not indefinitely block the account, but let him retain access to his own user talk page so he can answer us there? Then, if and when he does so, we can remove the block. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:12, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm on board with that. Indefblock with a notice and an exhortation to engage in dialogue with us. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:33, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Philippines was onced colonized by the Americans and Spaniards who use the letter "c" in their ortography.

I think letter c or letter k are both correct. Mayon V (talk) 10:22, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Move the rest to Wiktionary

I agree we can remove many of the single words that seems to be not useful to travellers, and move them to Wiktionary (though it's a complicated task due to the many translations listed and the entry layout). I am working on recreating the rest of the article using the phrasebook article skeleton once we can move the excessive detail out of here. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:22, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you very much for doing this. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:50, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, indeed thank you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:44, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

I removed the following information about a special register as out-of-scope. Please feel free to move it to Wiktionary or Wikibooks (with proper attribution). —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:00, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Extended content

Toned speeches Toned speeches are speech registers unique to Bicol languages. They are used to spice up conversation and to intimidate others. English Normal Bicol Word Speech Register house haróng, baray, balay lasngág; langág dog ayam gadyâ; gamadyâ old guráng gusngáb; gusgós clothes badò lamasdô; lasdô cat ikós kurasmág; kasmág eyes mata malsók food kakanon habluon; sibaón sit down tukaw, untad ígad speak tarám tabíl sleep katurog katuspok; katiplâ hand kamót kamulmóg foot/feet bitís, siki samingkíl; samail penis butò, tugi, lusî lamugtô vagina bubô; bulî buráy ear talinga, taringa talingugngóg mouth ngimot, kimot ngurapak; ngaspák head payó alimanták; alinták evening banggí lusók; gabsók dead gadán tigbák wet dumóg tulmóg rain urán bagrát choke tuok tìlok; tùlok

Bikol or Bicol?

The latter spelling seems to be used more in the article. Should we move the article to Bicol phrasebook? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:57, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't really have any idea, but I notice Wikipedia has w:Central Bikol for the language but w:Bicol Region for the region. I recall User:TagaSanPedroAko is from the Philippines, maybe they can advise. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:05, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

The destination article on this site is also Bicol. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:20, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Picture of Bicol Region

How can I put the picture of Cagsawa Ruins? Cagsawa Ruins is an icon of Bicol Region. Mayon V (talk) 04:33, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

First off, you'd probably be better off adding the picture to Bicol rather than this article, which is a phrasebook about the Bikol language. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Which is this?

The opening paragraph gives considerable info on dialects of Bikol, which is spoken where, etc. It looks to me like more detail than a traveller needs, but I do not know the area & might easily be wrong. Other opinions?

More important, having introduced dialect differences, it does not specify which one the phrasebook describes. Pashley (talk) 03:24, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I'll just say we don't do that in the Malay phrasebook. If I wanted to, I could discuss Kelantanese pronunciation more and give some Kelantanese dialect words, but I don't, because hardly any traveler will really need to know Bahasa Kelantan. I also spoke the related but different Terengganu dialect fluently as a child and certainly remember a lot of it, but when I went back in 2003, I found that only in a village quite a ways inland did I need to understand Bahasa Terengganu. Just about everybody understood standard Malay in standard pronunciation, even if, as in Kelantan (and rarely anymore in Terengganu, for better and/or worse), they spoke dialect among themselves. But this stuff is really a way to lose non-linguists in the details:

The Bicol languages are a group of Central Philippine languages spoken mostly on the Bicol Peninsula of the island of Luzon and also parts of Catanduanes and Burias Islands and Masbate province. There is a dialect continuum between the Visayan languages and the Bicol languages; the two together are called the Bisacol languages. Central Bicol or commonly called Bicol-Legazpi or Bicol-Naga is the most spoken language in the Bicol Region of southern Luzon. It is spoken in the northern and western part of Camarines Sur, second congressional district of Camarines Norte, eastern part of Albay, northeastern part of Sorsogon, San Pascual town of Masbate and southwestern part of Catanduanes. Central Bicol speakers can be found in all the provinces in Bicol and it is a majority language in Camarines Sur. The standard Sprachraum form is based on the Canaman dialect.

That has got to be simplified. For one thing, what is a "Sprachraum form", and why would we expect anyone to know? But really, all these continua, and there's gotta be a simpler way to say where the different dialects are spoken. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:44, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Looking at w:Central Bikol I find that what User:Ikan Kekek quotes above, except for the comment on the relation to Visayan languages, is taken word-for-word from the WP article. I think that means we should delete the lot here & replace it with some simpler summary. I have not done so because I do not know enough to write the summary. Pashley (talk) 04:27, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

It also has "Bicol is a language ... The Bicol languages". Are these mutually intelligible (one language with dialects)? Or unintelligible (different languages)? Perhaps somewhere between, largely intelligible but with some effort & confusion (closely related languages, like Spanish & Portuguese)? Pashley (talk) 03:47, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Since that was taken directly from Wikipedia, it should be deleted right away. The whole paragraph is here for anyone who wants to try simplifying it. I'll delete the paragraph from the article now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:08, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I reduced the intro to 2 sentences for now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:13, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I just rewrote it to specify which language we are dealing with & to make the comment on mutual intelligibility match WP. Comments? User:Mayon V? Pashley (talk) 07:45, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

It's clear to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:17, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Macrolanguage

Per this edit: Too technical. We can't expect our readers to be linguists. I have a Doctorate in an unrelated field, but my mother was an anthropologist, albeit not specifically a linguistic one, and I have never seen the word "macrolanguage" until now. I get the sense of what it must be - a language with mutually unintelligible dialects - but it's not a useful word to spring on people in a travel guide, in my opinion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:18, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree & will remove it. Pashley (talk) 07:21, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:18, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

"Dialect continuum" is the proper term, anyway. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 04:52, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Consequential diagraphs

Do we need to use that term? This isn't supposed to be a linguistic treatise for graduate students in linguistics; the average reader should be able to understand it. Also, I think the second word - if we continue to use it, which I wish we could avoid - should be "digraphs" from the Greek words for "two" and "letter". Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:47, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Consonant section

Consonant section is improving adding extra letters. Mayon V (talk) 01:11, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Orrigarmi is destroying what I already wrote based on the pattern to be followed

He keeps on editing this Bikol phrasebook. Help me admin report that username. Jabolero (talk) 05:13, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

This is a wiki and anyone can edit any page. That user has done nothing wrong. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:17, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Concur with User:SHB2000. You don't "own" anything on this site. Roovinn (talk) 05:19, 27 January 2022 (UTC)