Talk:Spain

Archived discussions Talk:Spain/Archive 2003-2012

Formatting and language conventions For articles about Spain, please use the 24-hour clock to show times, e.g. 09:00-12:00 and 18:00-00:00. Please show prices in this format: €100, and not not EUR 100, 100 euro or 100€. Please use British spelling.

Archived old discussions

There appear to be no recent discussions on this page. All discussions prior to 2013 are in the Talk:Spain/Archive 2003-2012 page Andrewssi2 (talk) 14:22, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Lack of History

Compared to most other country articles, Spain has almost no history! This seems a strange oversight considering there is a lot of source material, from the Moors to the conquistadors in the Americas to the civil war and the Franco period. Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:45, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I added some though there are probably some errors in what I added. The Franco era is still mostly glossed over, though. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

That's cool. The Franco era was relatively recent, so too much opinion one way or the other will probably offend someone. I think the 'high level' fact are correct (Human rights abuses, oppression of regional identities, economic boom, etc) and should likely be accepted by both sides Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:36, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Wait, we're really going to worry about potentially offending pro-Fascists? I haven't had a look at what's been added, so far. I don't think that disproportionate space should be given to the Fascist period, but not because it might offend someone. The Spanish Civil War and its aftermath should be at least briefly mentioned, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

So far we talk at length about the Spanish civil war (there just is something intriguing to it imho) but hardly mention the almost forty years of Franco's rule after that. And while I agree that we don't have to conform to fascist sensibilities, a Spanish friend of mine once tried to explain it to me like that: Franco and Hitler were both bad. But while Hitler is utterly indefensible, Franco has still some minor positive aspects to him. While I heartily disagree (he killed the Second Spanish Republic, after all) I get the point. Maybe we should try paint him not as a diabolic mastermind, but rather as the average guy who just happened to become dictator and than stayed in power more due to lack of alternatives than anything else. (heck some of the ultra-right wing Carlists even allied with the anarchists at one point to get rid of him) Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:40, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

As long as we just present facts and don't give them clearly disproportionate weight, we are within the Wikivoyage:Be fair guidelines. I'll have a look later or tomorrow, but I'm hardly the world's greatest expert on Spanish history. I'm not sure that the events in the decades after Franco won the civil war, took absolute power and killed a bunch of people are that relevant to travellers, though, for the most part. Any places to see Fascist architecture or memorials to the victims (or perpetrators) of Fascism might be of some note, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:49, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it isn't a case of throwing a sop to 'pro-fascists'. Franco's regime could be compared in some ways to w:Augusto_Pinochet in Chile, who certainly oversaw terrible human rights abuses but also economic development.

It isn't really in the remit of WV to drill into and judge the specific rights and wrongs. Nazi Germany does not have a mixed legacy in terms of good and bad. Franco's Spain does have this mixed legacy.

I think the text does clearly explain the bad aspects of the regime without drilling down much. Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:59, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Without arguing about Franco or Pinochet: Yes, I think it does. I edited the section — mostly copy editing with one or two few facts corrected. It seems quite good to me, though of course it remains a work in progress for anyone who can improve it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:51, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Imho Spain was bound to grow economically at some point in the 20th century. Not even it becoming communist (unless it would've turned into North Korea) could have kept that from happening. I think Franco being a dictator actually kind of hurt the development of tourism to an extent. The most positive thing (that doesn't include sentences like "well... he killed less people than dictator x...") I can find to say about Franco is that he died and left Spain in the not entirely incapable hands of King Juan Carlos, who - for once - made the right choice. What I was referring to with the tidbit about early Homo fossils (I deliberately left out which kind of, as there is still debate about that) was this article on WP, though I somehow forgot to include "in Europe". Good work on the copy editing, though. Also: do you know of any other famous people who were in Spain somewhere between 1936 and 1939 (the line between war-correspondent and interbrigadista is a very blurry one indeed). Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 08:11, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Disagree to some extent. Economic growth can happen without government interference (e.g. Hong Kong), but the absence of interference is in itself a decision that has to be made by the government (e.g. one North Korea can't make). Andrewssi2 (talk) 08:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

"He wasn't as bad as the North Korean Kim dynasty." OK, fine, but so what? I think the Stalinists already lost decades ago, so there's no sense in spending time praising (even faintly praising) some of the Fascists or similar dictators for not being that bad by comparison to the dictator who was responsible for more excess deaths than any other in human history, with the possibly arguable exception of Hitler, or his most rabid followers (the Kims, Pol Pot, Mao). So nothing personal here, but shall we move on? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:47, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Any other historical eras of interest? I think we deal too little with Muslim Spain and its architectural remains (heck it influenced architecture and place names as far away as Italy and Nicaragua to an extent). And I think we can all agree on one thing: Franco bad. People who like Franco: bad. Other dictators: some worse, some not. Best wishes Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:58, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Spain is probably the the second most influenced European country by Muslim culture ( after Malta ). Should definitely have more there. Andrewssi2 (talk) 05:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

(starting at the left again) I agree. What we now have on that era is a start but imho can still be elaborated on... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Repetition between "get in" and "get around"

Some of the information currently in "get in" should be in "get around". Other parts are mentioned twice or contradictory Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:17, 10 February 2016 (UTC) Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:17, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Seriously the "get in" section needs an overhaul

I just read a bit of the get in section again and quite frankly, it's a disaster. Sure, the Schengen template is where it should be and there are technically all the subheadings, but the by plane section is a strange discussion of airport architecture wrapped up by bitching about Iberia's ticket policy. The by bus section does not mention a single international line. The by train section has a lot of overlap with the get around section as well. The by boat section seems to be somewhat decent in comparison, but still... Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:39, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Go ahead and make the changes you think necessary. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:13, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

I did a bit on the "by plane" section, but quite frankly there are some things that would need adding that I don't really know about. I have been to Madrid-Barajas and actually spent a few hours in the city, but I have not used any other form of transport besides the Madrid Metro (which I recall as perfectly unremarkable, i.e. it worked without a hitch) Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:15, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Spain "exotic"?

In light of recent edits, I think it is fair to ask how we want to formulate this. Personally I dislike the word "exotic", especially for a travel guide that tries to avoid being written with any regional bias. After all, Sauerkraut and Weißbier would probably be considered exotic in Nicaragua, just like Germans would consider Gallo Pinto and this corn beverage Nicaraguans call "chicha" to be exotic... Anybody got an idea how to better put that sentence or the whole paragraph while we're at it? Hobbitschuster (talk) 17:44, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

I saw that edit by the anonymous contributor and agreed with replacing the word 'exotic' for the reasons that you basically state. Andrewssi2 (talk) 19:57, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

We're not claiming that Spain is objectively "exotic", just that it is considered exotic within Europe. If anything, the phrasing points out the regional bias, but doesn't actually confirm whether it's true or not. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

To be quite honest, I don't like either wording. But I don't really know what we should write instead... Hobbitschuster (talk) 01:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I would simply revert the edit. Spain is not considered exotic because of its friendly inhabitants, relaxed lifestyle, cuisine or vibrant nightlife. It's considered "exotic" because of its Arab heritage, which makes it quasi-"Oriental" to other Europeans. But I see no need to use the word at all, as it is not descriptive of anything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:37, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I disagree with that estimation, though it looks like I'm outvoted. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

The only way I would consider supporting the use of the word is if it is stated clearly that the reason people from Europe outside of Iberia consider Spain "exotic" is its Moorish heritage. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:21, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Except that's not true, Ikan. Certainly, the Moorish heritage adds to Spain's perceived "exoticness", but there are many aspects of Spain which set it apart and make it seem exotic among some Europeans; its traditions (flamenco and the Spanish people's peculiar relationship with the bull being just two clichéd examples), its hot and unusually arid climate (the only deserts in Europe are Spanish), its cuisine (tapas is rather like mezze, and unusual in western Europe; rice is not usually a big part of European cuisines, but in Spain it is... again, we're only talking about the most obvious stereotypes, but as we know it's often stereotypes which stick in the minds of foreigners more than the less well-known aspects of a culture), its notoriously, and I would say unfairly-portrayed, laid-back lifestyle (the siesta, dinner being eaten as late as 10pm, rather than the 7-8pm European norm), its eccentric and avant-gardist artists and architects (Goya, Dalí, Gaudi, Picasso) and its classical music (often acoustic guitar-based rather than a strings-led full orchestra).

But I'm happy to go with consensus. I understand and agree with you that 'exotic' is a culturally-subjective term, and that it would be better to highlight exactly what is special about Spain (all I wrote above, plus so much more) than simply wrap it up in the umbrella term of "exotic". As you'll see, I reverted my own edit. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:32, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I think the whole section could do with a rewrite. The "exotic" is not the only turn of phrase that sounds too much like a cliche in my ears. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:28, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

El Corte Inglés

is described as "not good enough for most purposes"---what is the author trying to say? Griffindd (talk) 09:28, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Bus prices

Does anyone know if the price for buses in Spain is dynamic? (like airline prices)

I'm finding even 2 hour inter-city buses are costing 15 euros, and some routes a whopping 45EU

I've also become aware that many Spaniards are getting major discounts on their long distance buses which makes me think the base rate might actually be a bit of a tourist tax. especially notable are discounts for advance bookings, group bookings and youth fares Twice I've asked about discounts at the ticket counter only to be mislead.

Does anyone have advice on this I can add? --95.16.30.236 13:00, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't know how the system is organized nationwide, but I know that on the L'Estartit-Girona route prices are not dynamic. As for discounts only locals can realistically get... Yeah. That is similar to what the Bahn Card or season tickets for local public transit do in effect in Germany. Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:55, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

doing some digging around it seems Spanish youth benefit from a huge discount on fares, but non-Spanish people don't (maybe EU youth might)and that season passes are the norm.

can't say I'm impressed being expected to pay for the whole Spanish network Also heard more competitive European lines are moving in, apparently Flixbus has a 5 rides for 100EU pass that works in Spain and might be a good note for "get in" it I can get the details

As far as I know Flixbus only serves a few stations near the border. Keep in mind that Flixbus does not own more than one bus and does not pay any toll in Germany and only pays for the use of some of its stations... Also keep in mind that locals pay local taxes Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:49, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

To do: Second homes

As we now have a travel topic for second homes, and these are common in Spain, this article could have a section about purchase and ownership of vacation property in Spain. /Yvwv (talk) 15:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

There'll probably a few of them coming on the market thanks to Brexit... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:19, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Travel warning for Catalonia?

I've started a discussion on if we should have a travel warning for Catalonia at Talk:Catalonia#Travel warning?. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:15, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Making sure our coverage of Spain is top-notch

Swept in from the pub

It's evidently overtaken my homeland as the second-most traveled destination after France. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:53, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

unfortunately Spanish Wikivoyage is not as good or active as the number of Spanish speakers might indicate... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:59, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, but we are doing our best to improve those articles little by little. --Zerabat (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Regional Breakdown

While I think the Green Spain and Andalucia subdivisions are fine and I can live with Central Spain, I think throwing Catalonia and Valencia in together with Murcia is not a particularly inspired choice and there is little in terms of infrastructure, language, history or culture that justifies such a move. They all share a coastline, but that's about it. Valencia and Catalonia share a very similar regional language, but Murcia does not share that with them. Similarly Northern Spain combines linguistically politically and historically disparate regions that don't seem to have much in common. Given that our total number of regions for Spain is currently five and none of this level of region articles is really all that full or well written, maybe we could cut them a different way? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:05, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't know much about Spain's geography. If I was you, I'd try to get in touch with Wikiviajes (Spanish-language Wikivoyage). I think there are at least some there who can speak English. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:52, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I've posted a map here that is the static map used by the Spanish-language wiki for Spain. Maybe that's closer to what you're looking for. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:54, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps attaching Murcia to Andalucía would make more sense than saddling it with Valencia. Or, as in real life, perhaps Murcia should be its own region. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I think the following changes make sense for historical reasons: 1) Aragon as part of Eastern Spain; 2) Murcia with Anadalucia. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 17:24, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I've found the Spanish language WV often... devoid of activity... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Murcia + Andalucia would be kind of a weird Wikivoyage region—only two immediate subregions, one of which (Andalucia) is so much more important to travellers than the other. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:14, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I guess the number of autonomous communities in Spain (17) is a hard number for us to work with on Wikivoyage. It's a little too many for them all to be immediate subregions of the country, but when we start grouping them, we end up with regions that don't have enough subregions (Green Spain, Northern Spain, Eastern Spain, and Central Spain all fall short of the recommended 5–9). —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:21, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Germany has 16 Länder (three of which, admittedly, are city-states) which serve as the subdivision there... Hobbitschuster (talk) 02:29, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Maybe we can do something similar here then. One slightly unfortunate thing about the Germany article, though, is that the individual regions (Länder) don't have their own descriptions, so it's not obvious how a reader is supposed to choose which one to click on. (The Germany article isn't unique in having this problem; I've also noticed it in Washington, D.C., Chicago, and to a lesser extent Boston.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:58, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Catalonia has tried to secede. Is there still a probability that Catalonia will be functionally independent within the next few years? If so, we should postpone the re-organization of Spanish regions until the dust has settled. /Yvwv (talk) 21:52, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Given what happened to those who peacefully tried to secede, I think it is unlikely Catalonia will achieve independence without violence. And if political violence were to reach notable levels in a member state of the EU, there'll be problems entirely different from those of the regional breakdown of Spain... Hobbitschuster (talk) 14:58, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, we shouldn't hold our breath. I strongly doubt Catalonia will gain independence in the next few years. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:08, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Help with Eat and Drink

Cuisine articles are for detailed information about a country's or region's cuisine, so I copied everything (except the lead section in Eat) of the rather extensive Eat and Drink sections from this article to Spanish cuisine, and rearranged it a bit.

So probably more than half could be deleted from here, but the question is what to delete and what to leave in. At least the lists of dishes and products could go, whereas we should leave some information about restaurants and bars and a short list of some of the most notable dishes (maybe similar to the dishes in the older version of Spanish cuisine). Thoughts? --Ypsilon (talk) 19:32, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I pretty much agree with you, and like what you've done with Spanish cuisine. What do you need help with again? :)

All this article really needs in 'Eat' is types of restaurants, the weird meal times, maybe a bit about etiquette and the general culture, plus a few notable products and dishes. For 'Drink', an overview of the popular or typical drinks, the drink + tapa culture, plus information about nightlife.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:07, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, I just figured it would be good with a second opinion. Nevertheless, as there've been no objections I'll start compressing the content in the Eat and Drink sections now. --Ypsilon (talk) 16:28, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Vox and other political parties

Thanks for your contributions to Spain, Hobbitschuster, but I'm actually not sure information about the Vox political party and political alliances is relevant to a travel guide at all. Sure, if they were in government, the need for a travel-relevant information would be present, but as it stands Vox isn't even as large as the National Rally in France, and probably not much larger than the AfD in Germany. Information about the independence referendums definitely is, so I would support keeping the updated information about the independence movement. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:19, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

There is a big difference between F-Haine, AfD and Vox: The former two are absolutely outside the realm of "parties one talks with" - the latter forms part of regional government in Andalusia, the Community of Madrid and in many cities. That, I think, is germane in a travel guide... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:22, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

But politically Vox and AfD are quite similar, aren't they? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:35, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes. With perhaps the added distinction that the AfD is a bit more coy about its Hitler sympathizing than Vox is about their Franco apologetics... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:14, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Guardia civil and politics

I agree that Franco sympathies in parts of the police might be relevant for travellers, but I also think just hinting on that (95 % of the force might still be communists, with the current wording) does little in informing on the matter. I think we instead should expand the paragraph in Respect, where we already say that Franco is a touchy issue. –LPfi (talk) 12:26, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Is there any police force on the planet where communist sympathizers amount to more than 5%? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:11, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps not – but if it is non-surprising the Guardia Civil supported Franco, why do we need to tell about that?

The Guardia Civil having been involved in a coup attempt long ago says very little about what attitude you as a traveller should have to the police. The "tough guy image" says enough there, and we already tell about the coup in the History section (in a very long paragraph). We could also say something in Respect.

I know what the sentence on Guardia Civil means, but only because I have an acquaintance who told me about those times. If we need to tell leftist, anarchists, queers and similar to keep away from them and at least not show their political opinions, then we need to say that explicitly, not by telling about some historic events.

–LPfi (talk) 11:20, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Political Tone

There are lots of awfully politicised assertions made on this page that have zero relevance to folks who are traveling to Spain. Facts such as Vox winning a seat recently or that a fraction of a percent of the Guardia Civil in 1981 participated in 23-F are not at all useful to travelers to Spain. The tone of some parts of this article clearly has a political motive, indiscriminately taking jabs at or downplaying the importance of certain national institutions, traditions, and historical political movements -- all sorts of things of tremendous national importance to Spaniards, but whose criticism in this article is without relevance to travelers.

By all means, if you want to add unlimited context to any and all, or just a small subsect, of notable Spanish topics, based on your personal interests, expertise, or political leanings, then please become active on Wikipedia by editing the articles corresponding to those topics. Meanwhile, about a quarter of the content in this article should be deleted as irrelevant and because it obscures information of actual utility.

This isn't to say that all assertions that may sound remotely political must be disallowed. For example, there is mentioning of the fact that 'non-European looking' folks may be subject to additional ID checks by authorities. That line is bound to irk some readers, but it's 100% useful and exactly the kind of nuanced information certain people come to expect from travel guides.

Whether or not you agree with me, editors should nevertheless be constantly mindful of maintaining political neutrality in the content they create.--2001:8003:818E:6800:8133:BB2B:2073:D81D 10:12, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

If you wish to defend fascism, go somewhere else. Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

I think the IP user has a point (as do User:SelfieCity and User:LPfi above, and User:ThunderingTyphoons! in the article's recent edit history). It feels like this article goes into too much detail about politics. Why does a traveller need to know this for instance? And I think most of the "Uncertain times in the third millennium" subsection could be removed. —Granger (talk · contribs) 11:06, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

So you say we should remove from our articles on Germany and Bavaria that its police is strict and "law&order"? And why on earth is the most recent history in your opinion the least relevant? Just to please some fash IP who also raised concern trolling false equivalence on Talk:Portland? Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:13, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

The role of the Guardia Civil in 23-F is explained in Spain#History. It does not need to be repeated in Spain#Stay safe. It is unlikely that many of the Guardia from 1981 are still on the streets 39 years later. If there is evidence that the Guardia commonly have fascist tendencies today, it would be useful to present that rather than ancient history. Ground Zero (talk) 11:14, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Catalans who don't speak Castilian

In light of recent edits, where I added a more carefully worded and perhaps overly circumlocutious version of the basic message "Don't assume speaking Castilian in Catalonia will always be met with enthusiasm by locals", User:Roovinn saw fit to rewrite it in a way that made it both shorter and more aggressive in tone and finally User:ThunderingTyphoons! removing the paragraph altogether, let me here state for the record my personal experiences with that issue. First, I spent roughly two months in Girona province, perhaps the "hotbed" of Catalan independence activism and had there more than once what could only be described as a "bilingual conversation" where I would speak Castilian and my interlocutor would reply consistently in Catalan. Once I had such a conversation with three parties in total involved with the third party acting as "translator". Another anecdote... When I was in Madrid, one of my Spanish professors who is from Catalonia and considers bot Castilian and Catalan as her native tongues said that it happens quite frequently when she is in Catalonia that people "refuse to speak Spanish" and that they do it as a political statement and that I shouldn't believe everything the pro-independence side says (I am, especially with regard to Spanish politics, rather outspokenly republican and lean leftwards). Another anecdote: When I worked at an airport, we had flights coming in from Barcelona and at least once I spoke to an employee of the Spanish flagged airline based in Barcelona in Castilian only to be replied in (slightly Iberoromance-accented) English. So from those observations and testimonies I would conclude that whatever the reasons ("political statement", "not comfortable in Castilian" or even "thinks it is more polite to use English") it is certainly not uncommon for people in Catalonia to be put a bit on edge when talked to in Castilian, but they tend to - in general - not hold it against foreigners that much albeit still sometimes engaging in somewhat silly behavior... Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:09, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I can only relate experience as a tourist, but the only time someone has semi-rebuked me for not speaking Catalan was on the French side of the border (I said "bonjour" to some man at a castle, and he curtly corrected me with "bon dia" and something I couldn't understand). Granted, in Spanish Catalonia, I have encountered locals switching to English when addressed in Spanish, but I have never been made to feel uncomfortable for trying to speak Spanish and the switch could have easily been because my Spanish accent wasn't deemed good enough as opposed to the person being anti-Castilian. It is for this reason that I decided foreigners speaking Spanish in Catalonia wasn't a sufficiently important issue to go in the 'Respect' section of Spain.

But to cut to the chase, what change are you proposing to the section? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:13, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd say take this edit as a basis and work from there... Hobbitschuster (talk) 09:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Okay, so based on that, how about?:

Virtually everyone in Spain, regardless of region, is able to speak Castilian Spanish, albeit not always as a mother tongue. In Catalonia, some Catalans prefer to not speak Spanish at all, and will reply to Spanish-speaking interlocutors in Catalan; this is usually a political statement, rather than a lack of Castilian language ability. Foreigners are given a bit more leeway, but there are still some Catalans who'd rather have a conversation in English than Spanish if those are the only options for communication.

It's probably best not to conflate language and politics, as they're not really the same issue, even if related. I've seen pro-Catalan independence campaign material written in Spanish ("¡Somos españoles, pero queremos la independencia!"); my current Spanish teacher is a proud Galician and galego-speaker, but deeply opposed to the various independence movements around Spain.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

As someone who's been watching the dispute from recent changes but not participating in it, that looks like a reasonable compromise statement from my understanding of the situation in Catalonia. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 11:09, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Not to be politically offensive but surely these Catalans should know how to speak Spanish. I mean, it was a country for a few seconds but they should be able to speak either spanish or english. SHB2000 (talk) 11:37, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Catalan sorta-kinda-not really independence actually has a loooong history of "wait, were they actually independent during that time?" but it is besides the point. And yes, I think the compromise wording sums it up well. Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:33, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

AFAIK, the main barrier to Catalan independence (aside from opposition within Catalonia) is there's no legal way for it to unilaterally declare independence; it would need to change the Spanish constitution, and to do that it would need to pass through parliament with the approval of the 16 other autonomous communities in Spain, most of which are opposed to independence because they'd lose all the juicy money Catalonia makes for them. Good luck with that!

Let's wait a bit to see if user:Roovinn or others would like to comment, but other than that, the wording should be good to go.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Which is why there are people in the not exactly admirable position of declaring a vote "illegal" and cheering on the police squads who literally arrest people for the crime of holding and organizing a vote... Hobbitschuster (talk) 15:59, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, really sinister. If a vote has no legal weight (it didn't) and is in essence simply an opinion poll (it was), what the hell are they afraid of? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:09, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Unfortunately, my Spanish is close to non-existent, but I will say from my visit to Barcelona that my experience was that the native Catalan speakers were happy to speak to foreigners in Spanish. The main difficulty will be in the Metro, since Metro announcements are only in Catalan. People were actually quite willing to help me in English, if they spoke English, and this is anecdotal, but I found general English proficiency to be somewhat higher in Barcelona than in Madrid or Sevilla. That said, I remember that the waiters were very happy when I asked for the bill in Catalan. The dog2 (talk) 16:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Barcelona is also - perhaps counter-intuitively - the least pro-independence part of Catalonia and the place where the most (as a share of population) monolingual Castilian (or Castilian + non-Spanish language) people live in all of Catalonia... But that's even more beside the point... Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I would say it's very intuitive. Big city, so it attracts lots of migrants from elsewhere in Spain, other parts of Europe and Latin America, nearly all of whom are far more likely to speak Spanish than Catalan. Still, Barcelona does have some traditional Catalan neighbourhoods.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:41, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Looks like we have a consensus, and everyone has had the opportunity to have their say, so I'll put in the agreed wording.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Spanish words

Mx. Granger and 173.216.247.15 disagree on whether to mention Spanish terms such as carretera, mariscos frescos, agua del grifo, pan, queso and vino: "let's not go down the road of translating every word in the article - we have a Spanish phrasebook".

I have no strong opinion on what words are worth mentioning, but let's not have an edit war. We do include some local words in most country articles and I am not sure the phrasebook covers e.g. carretera or agua del grifo (words like those are also better introduced in context), but I agree that we don't need to translate every word.

–LPfi (talk) 05:24, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree with having a few words here and there, but I think it's better off having these ones here. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | en.wikipedia) 05:30, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I didn't revert agua del grifo, but rather agua by itself. I don't feel strongly about any of these though, happy to follow whatever the consensus is. —Granger (talk · contribs) 06:24, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

(Sorry looked the wrong way, supposing 173... repeated the reverted edits. –LPfi (talk) 06:30, 16 May 2021 (UTC))

I don't mind including some words, at least when the article says to ask for "such and such", but each Spanish word only needs to be given a maximum of once, not repeated a few lines later like agua was until just now. I don't really think carretera is important to list: it doesn't appear on road signs, and you don't typically need to talk about roads with locals as a traveller in Spain.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Following further edits which reintroduced prior formatting errors and perpetuated the edit war, and which I don't believe improved the article, I have asked user:Baterjaownf to join in this discussion.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 18:58, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Why were those revisions deleted? —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:06, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Apparently, user:Baterjaownf is a long-term vandal. See user talk:Praxidicae.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:18, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

I see. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:21, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Length of Stay safe

The subsection Safety in Stay safe says "Spain is a safe country". Still Stay safe is six screenfuls for me (Niger's is one, Colombia's is three).

I don't think most travellers are willing to read these walls of text for a safe country. Could we try to find passages that are unnecessary or could be expressed with less words? Some points on driving should perhaps be moved to By car.

–LPfi (talk) 12:08, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Disagree. If anything, those other countries need to be expanded.

I do agree that some passages are still too generic and should be condensed or removed. For example, overcharging scams are a risk at restaurants everywhere. Lottery scams occur all over the world too. The more I think about it, the pickpocket warnings can be greatly condensed and limited to mentioning only Madrid and Barcelona (but not all the specific locations in those cities).

The part about getting attacked on the road should stay in this section, though. That is a safety risk that is relatively unique to Spain.

As you will notice, I have revised and condensed the material on xenophobia which I added, but that is an important part that should stay. Spain's hostility to foreigners is quite unusual, and stands in stark contrast to Latin America's welcoming and friendly attitude towards foreigners. --Coolcaesar (talk) 15:52, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

"Unless you can pass for a local, expect an openly frosty or hostile reception from at least some people during your visit." Is this accurate advice? I spent about two months in Spain in 2016, and I don't remember any hostility or frostiness. The only "Tourist go home" I heard or saw was a piece of graffiti. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I have understood that there are such feelings in a few cities, where tourists outcrowd locals on the housing market. That's similar to the problems in Venice and has little to do with Xenophobia. –LPfi (talk) 11:33, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

It sounds like you're not tracking the situation on the Web, or the news media, or social media, or on Reddit or Quora, all of which are rife with reports of Spaniards' coldness and/or hostility to foreigners.

If you haven't seen that coverage, you need to work on media literacy skills. If you didn't sense such hostility yourself in Spain, you were either not paying attention or you can pass as a Spaniard. --Coolcaesar (talk) 14:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I admit the coverage on the Spanish-speaking world is not the best in the news over here, and whether people in Spain in general are warm or cold is definitely not front page stuff. Passing as Spaniard I would not say, but if one mostly spends time with local friends, one probably gets another impression than as normal tourist. I did not check internet stuff. –LPfi (talk) 15:26, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

One caution: Posts on social media aren't a reliable indication of anything anywhere. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

And news media sometimes present an exaggerated or misleading picture of a destination. Anyway, I don't think any Spaniard would think I was from their country after talking to me for thirty seconds, but I do speak fluent Spanish and basic Catalan, which might set me apart from the average tourist. As for the comparison with Latin America, to generalize wildly based on my own travels, I'd say I've found Spaniards to be warmer than Bolivians, less warm than Brazilians, and about on par with Argentinians. I think it's true that there's some resistance to tourism at least in Barcelona, but does that really belong in "Stay safe" or would it fit better in "Respect"? The "Respect" section currently says "Generally speaking, Spaniards are widely regarded as welcoming and friendly." —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:25, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Tipping taxi drivers

We currently say:

"Outside the restaurant business, some service providers, such as taxi drivers, hairdressers and hotel personnel may expect a tip in an upscale setting.

and

"Many taxi drivers will also demand a tip from foreign customers or even from national ones on the way to and from the airport. You might round up to the nearest euro when paying though."

The latter advice being in Scams suggests that you should not tip on demand, other than the possibly by rounding up slightly – but waiting for a demand before tipping sounds odd. Should you always give a tip on airport journeys or being a rich foreigner? Is the rounding up normal practice among locals? In upscale settings? Always when you feel like?

I am not familiar with Spanish taxis; somebody else should check the advice in the sections By taxi, Tipping and Scams.

–LPfi (talk) 07:41, 9 October 2024 (UTC)