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Do we want a "living abroad" article?

We have several articles about things that involve relatively long-term residence abroad: Retiring abroad, Working abroad, Teaching English, Digital nomad, Studying abroad, ... There are some issues that are common to most or all of these; some are currently covered at Retiring_abroad#Taxation, Retiring_abroad#Housing, Retiring_abroad#Moving & Retiring_abroad#Health. Some other articles already link to some of those & more links might be added. Other issues are not covered at all as far as I can see:

For many types of long-term visa you need a document from the police at home, or wherever you have been living recently, certifying that you are not a criminal. In many cases you need to get the destination country's embassy to certify that the document is genuine.

If you want to marry at the destination, in some countries (at least China & Philippines) you will need a document from your country's embassy or consulate certifying that you are single. To get this, you may have to show the consulate other documents -- divorce decree, death certificate if you are widowed -- & I've seen situations where someone had to fly home to get the documents.

Would it make sense to centralise this information in a "Living abroad" article & link to it from the others? Pashley (talk) 15:37, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Yes, "living abroad" can be a broad topic, covering subtopics like retiring abroad, working abroad, teaching English, studying abroad, culture shock, etc. Of course, "living abroad" should be distinguished from mere "travelling abroad", as you will be staying in a foreign land for longer periods than average tourists. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 17:22, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

I've always felt that moving is a form of travel and would be good to cover in a comprehensive travel guide, but so far, every article that's not about traveling somewhere temporarily has been an exception. I will add that all temporary or permanent residents of Germany are required to have medical insurance, and I was very shocked to find out recently that medical insurance for people on resident visas in Germany can be punishingly expensive, depending on a person's age and medical risk factors. Anyone interested in moving there temporarily or permanently as a freelancer needs to know about this and would benefit from knowing a lot earlier in their investigation and planning of a potential move than I did. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:12, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

A Living abroad article sounds like a good idea to me. The other articles mentioned above (Working abroad, Studying abroad, etc.) can link to it as appropriate. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:51, 16 March 2025 (UTC)

Because the topic is so broad, I think it makes more sense to use Living abroad as a list of the articles we've already created for specific circumstances. Ground Zero (talk) 00:08, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

@Ground Zero: That may make sense, and I will draft a list similar to concerns shortly. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 02:27, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Specifics for students, those who retire etc. should be covered in those articles, but general advice on the common issues fit better in the general article. I think it needs to be a proper article rather than a link list, but let's see how the article develops. –LPfi (talk) 07:04, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

@Pashley, Ikan Kekek, Mx. Granger, Ground Zero: I have created living abroad as a list of articles related to living abroad. It can be converted to a full-fledged article if needed. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 03:18, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

In Europe we have people of all ages who can afford to travel for extensive periods in a recreational vehicle, some of them even while working remotely. Many of them are from Northern Europe, who travel south during the winter. Since the weather conditions are changing, we are now also seing people from Southern Europe who travel north during the summer. My understanding is these people are "living abroad" even though they are not doing so permanently, but I would classify them as tourists because some also change destination country once in a while. Can Wikivoyage cater to this type of tourists? 2A02:AA1:1166:C7DD:C81B:4E7A:E9F6:E942 21:33, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

Actually, most articles in Wikivoyage deal with tourists, including the ones you're talking about. However, in my conception, "living abroad" means not just staying in a different country for extended periods, but also staying there for practical reasons, including education (learning or teaching), work, and retirement. They are not mere "tourists" in the sense that they are not just travelling to a different country for pleasure. Probably that's why many private space travellers don't like the term "space tourist", as some of them have had practical reasons to go to space (like filmmaking). Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 02:56, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Odd comparison. But I don't think we need to care about whether people are living abroad permanently or just for an extended time – or living vs staying. We are giving advice for visa issues, moving (part of) your belongings, culture chock, health insurance etc. Some of those may not apply to a specific person living abroad, but they can nevertheless benefit from any advice that applies. The article is hardly relevant for RV folks who stay short enough that a normal visa, travel insurance etc. suffice – even if they feel they are living abroad – but if something is useful for them, all the better. –LPfi (talk) 09:50, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Townships?

I'm curious if West Bloomfield would be considered large enough to create a page - I know we don't want to have lots of tiny places with almost nothing on that page and that consolidation is preferred, but I don't see how it would fit into the current structure of Oakland County as there are a number of different places (parks, restaurants, community centers, etc.) that would probably clog up that page. I'd go ahead and forge ahead and make it, especially since it's already listed on the Oakland County page, but there's a bit of an issue I'm running up against - I definitely wouldn't call the area a city, as it is very much unincorporated, but I also wouldn't call it rural - it's more of a suburb. I understand that there is a suggested way to treat suburban areas, but said suggestion appears to make the assumption that the area is a suburb of a city, which. Isn't really the case here.

If I'm being silly and an unincorporated township should just get stuck on the county page, please let me know. Froglegseternal (talk) 18:16, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

The size of a town is not what determines whether it passes the what is an article test. I can think of at least one tiny town that has a star-rated article. From your description of the number of attractions in this town, it sounds to me like it could merit an article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:28, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

We have city articles for settlements of any size - cities, towns, villages, townships etc (we don't care about official status). If the article is going to be about West Broomfield and the surrounding countryside, with much of the things being in the country (or other settlements) then a rural area article would be better. However as west Broomfield has a population of 68,000 it sound more like a town than a township to me (in the UK a township suggests a population of 68!). AlasdairW (talk) 22:30, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

Caledon township, South Africa

We need to be carfeful as to what we mean by the word "township". In South Africa, for example, the word is usually used to describe the poor urban areas which are often a legacy of Aprtheid and which are inhabited mainly by non-white people and which are often devoid of facilities. Tourists are usually advised to avoid such areas. Martinvl (talk) 16:18, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for that reminder.

It looks like the US has two kinds: The w:Survey township and the w:Civil township. I'm more familiar with the former. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:06, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

Do you think the risk of confusion is great enough that "township" should have an entry in the English language varieties article? Such an entry risks detailing too many trivialities travelers won't care about, but if we can avoid that, it might be helpful. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:24, 29 March 2025 (UTC)

I would agree with adding an entry to that article. When I saw the heading on my watchlist, I assumed the discussion was going to be about South African townships. I didn't realize the term was used in the United States for a different purpose, and I was born and have lived here all my life. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 03:51, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

Good idea, I've added it. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:32, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

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Just a reminder that these events are "for up to an hour", but in recent years, it's usually been "for less than five minutes". Most people won't notice this at all, but if you do, just wait a couple of minutes and try your edit again. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:50, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

200 years of railway travel

Centenary celebrations in 1925

We are coming towards the 200th anniversary of passenger rail transport. On 27 Sep 1825 a steam-hauled train ran from Stockton-on-Tees to Darlington and back, acclaimed as a huge success as there were only two breakdowns and one serious injury. Might WV commemorate this in some way? Possibilities:

• Update / upgrade any rail themed pages such as “Rail travel in X” and itineraries.
• Perhaps one of those pages would be suitable for dotm / ftt.
• Update / upgrade any “Get in by rail” sections, at least for major mainline stations.
• Ditto any heritage lines and railway themed museums.

Any other thoughts? Grahamsands (talk) 14:30, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

Interesting bit of trivia. I'll have to keep my eyes open for an opportunity to add some rail related content. There are probably also some train museums that have been overlooked. Cheers! Mrkstvns (talk) 20:57, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

Maybe is it worth considering running Rail travel in Great Britain for FTT? //shb (t | c | m) 21:34, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

Done – I've now nominated it for FTT. //shb (t | c | m) 08:09, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Many thanks for that. The article is in good shape and looks to need only minor update.

The anniversary will of course be most marked in GB - Natrail and the heritage industry are already noticing. But I'd like this to extend to other countries as far as possible, especially when we consider how far the GB rail network now lags behind others. Just look at China for the speed and extent of their system. Grahamsands (talk) 13:55, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Yeah the current GB rail system does leave much to be desired (privatisation + HS2, what else can I say) especially when a lot of Asian countries (particularly China) excel in rail far more. :( (I'd still take the GB rail system over the rest of the Anglosphere, though). //shb (t | c | m) 02:26, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

What's different about this page?

Hey guys! I'm puzzled as to why the article Latacunga appears with a Contents box. Is this article somehow using a different skin or something? How was it invoked when other destinations appear normally? Just trying to understand what's going on....

Mrkstvns (talk) 19:14, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

The {{pagebanner}} tried to include a photo that did not exist. I have removed it, so the table of contents no longer displays and the default banner image does now. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:31, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

The banner photo was deleted last month, see commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Latacunga_banner.jpg. AlasdairW (talk) 22:11, 24 March 2025 (UTC)

It can be undeleted and uploaded locally if it satisfies our EDP – which in this case probably means one cannot replace it with an equally good unencumbered one (deleted because of copyrighted artwork shown in the image). If needed, one can ask it to be undeleted for evaluation. –LPfi (talk) 11:49, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

And at the risk of getting a little too technical, the copyright on artwork was not just something like "I took a picture of a movie poster" or something that is typically and obviously a copyrighted creative work, but Ecuador lacks a freedom of panorama, so that taking photos of buildings, sculptures, and other architectural structures is covered by copyright, so a new banner should probably focus on natural phenomena. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 13:30, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

Thanks guys. I've added a new image that focuses on the natural landscape, as suggested by Justin. Feel free to replace it if you find something better. Cheers! Mrkstvns (talk) 13:47, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

I'm disappointed that my efforts to monitor c:COM:Deletion requests missed a Wikivoyage pagebanner. Wikivoyage is not bound by Commons' requirements for all photos to lack copyright restrictions on their commercial reuse, so if the preexisting pagebanner was better, we should indeed request undeletion for the purpose of uploading it locally with a warning for reusers. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:18, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

Shouldn't we be getting notifications from the Commons deletion bot? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:24, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

We should, but the bot that took care of this (or this functionality of the deletion bot if it was the one) has been defunct for a long time now. This is essential infrastructure maintained by volunteers instead of the WMF). I don't know whether the maintainer has withdrawn or just hasn't been able to fix it.

The Commons folks are quite frustrated as the WMF launches all kinds of new projects (some of them loudly criticised from the outset) instead of taking responsibility for essential infrastructure.

–LPfi (talk) 17:01, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

@MusikAnimal, why isn't User:Community Tech bot working here? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:13, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Does it work anywhere? phab:T339145 suggests that it was disabled on 6 June 2023, and a bug filed 14 June, triaged as High priority on 12 Dec that year ("given how long the outage has been"). Work seems to be ongoing, more or less, since then, but I see nothing on the progress since September. @MusikAnimal: any news?

Not being notified of deletion requests is quite frustrating, and also means that more or less every deleted image should be restored for evaluation of whether it can be replaced or locally uploaded – and that undeletion and evaluation has to be redone for every use (there is no way to coordinate discussions on that matter across uses).

–LPfi (talk) 07:57, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

I've commented at phab:T339145#10684901. I actually never dismissed the last ping from last October! Fixing this bot is on my ever-growing list of to-dos, where it has had to compete with multitudes of other things people are demanding my attention on, combined with a stressful past three quarters at the day job working on the monumental multiblocks project. In defense of my team, we didn't have the Python expertise needed to fix the bot, and the original author left the Foundation years ago. That's why it died. I spent long enough finally figuring out the Python bit and got stuck on the Toolforge part. @Taavi being the gem that he is was going to help me at the 2024 Hackathon, but both XTools and something else critical that I maintain (I don't recall what) decided to break that weekend, so I was stuck working on that instead :-P

We happen to have another hackathon just one month away, and barring "Unbreak Now!" tasks getting slapped in my face, I will personally see to it that this bot gets revived. I realize it shouldn't take a Hackathon to fix a bot that a WMF team signed up to write and maintain. We have learned a lot about reducing maintenance burden since the bot was first written 7 years ago, and had it been written with those learnings we have today, I think it would still be running.

One thing that would help is to "award tokens" or comment at phab:T339145 indicating how important this is to you and your wiki. To my knowledge only enwikivoyage has ever filed complaints. I hope you know that in my heart that was enough for my desire to bring it back to life, especially when I read you were (or are) planning to do this work manually! :cries:

All of that said, I guess I can more or less promise something to come to fruition sometime next month, hopefully sooner. Please note that this comment is 100% in my volunteer capacity.

Warm regards and sympathies! — MusikAnimal ^talk 22:05, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate your commitment and efforts. I've been doing my best to monitor all deletion requests for quite a while, mainly in order to try (clearly not entirely successfully) to catch efforts to delete images in use on Wikivoyage, and secondarily on other sister sites. If this bot started working again, I would dearly love to stop working so much on deletion requests and instead do other things that are more fun and possibly more useful to me. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:37, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

When that team was started, they weren't supposed to have any maintenance responsibilities at all. The idea was that they would do something that was either pretty permanent (e.g., create a complex wikitext template) or that would be taken over by another team (e.g., add a small feature to the visual editor that the Editing team would maintain, or a tweak to a MediaWiki skin that the Web team would maintain). Instead, a lot of the requests have been maintenance oriented.

In my experience, the WMF management is great at many things, but not at allocating staff for maintenance. Even when they say "Oh, your team needs to spend half its time on maintenance", they don't really grasp that internally. It's "Why didn't you do as much as I expected?" when more "So glad you dropped this new project in favor of fixing the unscheduled maintenance problem" is needed. My comment isn't about a single person. I've seen this pattern in every manager running Product teams for years. There's something about the overall system that is downplaying maintenance needs. For example, teams are usually told not to put any of their maintenance work into the annual goals, even if maintenance is their primary role. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:37, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

That's sad, but it seems to confirm what Commons is seeing and frustrated about (although there it is mostly about taking maintenance responsibility for essential volunteer-developed tools). And MusikAnimal, thank you for your commitment. I hope you will succeed. –LPfi (talk) 17:09, 30 March 2025 (UTC)

IMO Commons has always been neglected, but prioritizing potential projects there is seriously complex and value-based. For example: if you could put a dev team on Commons for two years, should you make the UploadWizard better for newcomers, the batch upload tools better for GLAM professionals, or the reviewing/deleting tools better for admins? Each of those audiences will tell you that their needs are "clearly" the most important, and none of them are actually wrong. The project you would choose depends on what your vision for Commons is. And that means it's difficult to get agreement to do anything.

If any of this was easy, then it would have been done years ago. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:40, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

I think that what's frustrating for Commons is not that, but WMF putting resources into projects they don't want. There was the filter thing, which everybody told won't work, and the structured data suggestion tool, which Commons protested loudly about. Both took quite some manpower that could have been used for badly needed other things.

I understand WMF sometimes prioritising needs of non-regulars (there has been some controversy about the upload wizard), but those large-scale what-did-I-say projects are quite bad for how WMF is seen, especially as there often seems to be nobody listening on the WMF side (I see the upload wizard feedback page is now monitored, thanks for that!).

–LPfi (talk) 19:08, 31 March 2025 (UTC)

As I said, the question is which audience is being prioritized. When we say "projects they don't want", the question is which "they" you're talking about.

An image filter is feasible, within some reasonable limits, and some people actually do want one. While nobody was satisfied with the structured data suggestion tool that we actually got (e.g., far too much "smiling" and "blonde hair" for photos of women), there were and still are people who would like a quick and easy way to get more structured data in place, so that it's easier to find images. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:06, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

Wikidata and Sister Projects: Online event

Hello everyone, I’m writing to announce an upcoming event called Wikidata and Sister Projects that will be a mini online conference to highlight the different ways Wikidata can be connected and integrated with the other WM projects.

We are currently looking for session ideas and speakers for our program and wanted to reach out in case there were any editors here that might have a cool idea for a session proposal. Sessions can be found on the event discussion page. As previously mentioned, we would like to showcase the relationship between Wikivoyage and Wikidata and how data such from listings/VCards is a collaborative effort between the 2 projects, or how structured data aids in geoshape and map creation.

The event is scheduled between May 29 - June 1st, 2025. If you have any questions about the event, would like more information or have a session idea to propose, please feel free to get in touch by replying to this post or writing on the event page or on my talk page. Thanks for reading, - Danny Benjafield (WMDE) (talk) 07:19, 1 April 2025 (UTC)

@Danny Benjafield (WMDE) Is it still possible to propose session? It says proposals need to be submitted by March 31, yet your announcement here was made on April 1. I am planning to submit a lightning talk about linking tourist points of interest and pictures to Wikidata. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 14:41, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

Hello @OhanaUnited, it is still possible (and warmly received) to submit a session idea, I updated the pages with a new deadline. Looking forwards to your proposal! Thank you, - Danny Benjafield (WMDE) (talk) 15:46, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

Done! I have submitted. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 19:50, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

IsPartOf broken?

It seems many articles have had their breadcrumbs broken? Araçatuba has {{IsPartOf|Northwest São Paulo (state)}} at the bottom but nothing appears, similarly does Legnica, while Lądek-Zdrój only contains Lower Silesian Voivodeship (with no further breadcrumbs to Poland. Anyone know what's up with this? //shb (t | c | m) 00:57, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Screenshots here for reference. //shb (t | c | m) 01:00, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Pinging @Andyrom75, Jdlrobson: if any of you have any insight into this. //shb (t | c | m) 01:02, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

@SHB2000: Even ordinary articles like Delhi, India, London, New York City, and Paris are lacking breadcrumbs right now. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 03:40, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

London and New York have them now, but the others do not! Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:45, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Same for me. //shb (t | c | m) 04:10, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

@SHB2000: Did you purge, like I mentioned below? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:27, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

It's a hit or miss after purging. //shb (t | c | m) 08:38, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Sometimes you need to purge two or even three times. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:41, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Still no luck. Though what Andyrom said is probably true. //shb (t | c | m) 00:12, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

I purged Araçatuba and it now displays correctly. This will fix itself over time on all pages. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:57, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

@SHB2000, I agree with @Koavf: it's a "temporary bug" and if you purge a page, it will be shown correctly. In the medium/long term, all the pages will be shown correctly without performing any action. I suppose it has been originated by a wrong change injected server side and then reverted. ...but I can be wrong... Andyrom75 (talk) 21:00, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

I believe this might relate to phab:T389523. I've pinged a few people to get confirmation. Jdlrobson (talk) 06:07, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Purge does not work. At the page The Hague the breadcrumbs should show as:

Europe > Benelux > Netherlands > Western Netherlands > South Holland > Rotterdam-The Hague Metropolitan Region > The Hague

But after purging 10x, it stayed unchanged as:

Rotterdam-The Hague Metropolitan Region > The Hague

FredTC (talk) 08:05, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Off-topic but I never thought that a small country like the Netherlands can be too diverse to have long breadcrumbs like this. Of course, the cities in West Bengal (India) boast similarly long breadcrumbs, but the parent country is waaay bigger than the Netherlands. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 10:26, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

It seems to be an issue with [[Template::IsPartOf]]. I haven't figured out exactly what yet, but replacing {{IsPartOf|...}} with {{#isin:...}} directly seems to restore the breadcrumbs, and https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Special:ApiSandbox#action=query&format=json&prop=pageprops&titles=Czech_Republic confirms that the geocrumb-is-in page property is not present using the template but is (correctly) present using the parser function directly. Investigting. Cscott (talk) 16:30, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Hm: a null-edit seems to work to create the page property, but "merely" action=purge does not. I've filed phab:T391128 because technically the page property should be required: it should fall back to the method it used to use before recent changes. But for the moment, doing a null-edit on the affected pages seems to create the page property correctly. Cscott (talk) 16:47, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

I don't have sufficient permissions on this wiki, but a null-edit to Template:IsPartOf should fix all of the pages with this issue at once by forcing them to update their page properties. (action=purge rerenders the page but doesn't update page properties.) Cscott (talk) 16:54, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

I also have a patch to GeoCrumbs to fix this, but it won't roll out until April 9 or so. Cscott (talk) 17:03, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Null-edit of the template didn't actually cause refreshlinksjob to run on all of the linked articles, for some reason -- or it's running really slowly, I'm not sure. In any case, I backported the patch just now, and the pages should be fixed and if not `action=purge` will fix them. Cscott (talk) 13:57, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

I made a null edit. Jdlrobson (talk) 17:05, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Really annoying, some articles show only the next article right above it, other articles show the 2-3 articles above, many articles don't show the breadcrumbs at all. I hope WM contributors who know coding can fix this asap... --Ypsilon (talk) 22:10, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

@Cscott: You should have the perms now. //shb (t | c | m) 22:52, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

(I love the way this community handles permissions. Give people what they actually need, and don't make a big fuss over it.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:03, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

(Oh god yeah enwiki is really annoying in that regard.) //shb (t | c | m) 06:04, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

Now it seems all articles only show what's directly breadcrumbed above it but not the full list. At least it's somewhat consistent on that now. //shb (t | c | m) 00:18, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

It looks fixed right now. Grahamsands (talk) 14:50, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

Seems so on my end too. //shb (t | c | m) 21:29, 8 April 2025 (UTC)

Final proposed modifications to the Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Guidelines and U4C Charter now posted

The proposed modifications to the Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Guidelines and the U4C Charter are now on Meta-wiki for community notice in advance of the voting period. This final draft was developed from the previous two rounds of community review. Community members will be able to vote on these modifications starting on 17 April 2025. The vote will close on 1 May 2025, and results will be announced no later than 12 May 2025. The U4C election period, starting with a call for candidates, will open immediately following the announcement of the review results. More information will be posted on the wiki page for the election soon.

Please be advised that this process will require more messages to be sent here over the next two months.

The Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) is a global group dedicated to providing an equitable and consistent implementation of the UCoC. This annual review was planned and implemented by the U4C. For more information and the responsibilities of the U4C, you may review the U4C Charter.

Please share this message with members of your community so they can participate as well.

-- In cooperation with the U4C, Keegan (WMF) (talk) 02:05, 4 April 2025 (UTC)

Donghai Island

A lot of help is needed in that article, but first, we need to resolve a question on Talk:Donghai Island. Your assistance will be greatly appreciated! Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:43, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

Wikidata and Sister Projects: An online community event

(Apologies for posting in English)

Hello everyone, I am excited to share news of an upcoming online event called Wikidata and Sister Projects celebrating the different ways Wikidata can be used to support or enhance with another Wikimedia project. The event takes place over 4 days between May 29 - June 1st, 2025.

We would like to invite speakers to present at this community event, to hear success stories, challenges, showcase tools or projects you may be working on, where Wikidata has been involved in Wikipedia, Commons, WikiSource and all other WM projects.

If you are interested in attending, please register here. If you would like to speak at the event, please fill out this Session Proposal template on the event talk page, where you can also ask any questions you may have.

I hope to see you at the event, in the audience or as a speaker, - MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:18, 11 April 2025 (UTC)

A question about two abuse filter messages

Why do we have both MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning-telstra and MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning-telstra-not-declined? Codename Noreste (talk) 15:02, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

Talk:North Brabant

I would welcome other views on how to proceed here. There is a discussion about whether this article should have subregions or not. One user has restored a bunch of subregion articles that do not follow Wikivoyage style (twice) without discussing it on the talk page. Ground Zero (talk) 10:52, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

In particular, this user is adding long lists for cities and towns for which we do not have articles, creating red links. Do we have a policy on this? Ground Zero (talk) 11:01, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

The user ignored my requests and warning on their talk page, has continued to add more redlinked cities to Noth Brabant and the subregion articles, while not participating in the discussion. I have blocked them for two hours to try to get their attention. See User talk:KeesNB1969NL. Ground Zero (talk) 11:09, 13 April 2025 (UTC)

FYI: Why do Indian students struggle after moving abroad?

Biggest myths about studying overseas busted by Reddit user: Why do Indian students struggle after moving abroad?. Relevant to our coverage on studying abroad. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 13:39, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

@Sbb1413: I get a 404 error when I click that link – I assume it only works within India? //shb (t | c | m) 14:07, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

@SHB2000: Sorry for the wrong link, here's the correct one. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 14:30, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

Perfect, that works; I'll give it a read sometime later today. //shb (t | c | m) 14:36, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I think the article says little. It doesn't answer the question in the heading, it doesn't even try.

It says that a visa is not a lottery ticket, that you need to do your research on the job market (and presumably costs, studies etc.), that you need to study in earnest, not just get an exam, and so on. In short: a visa and admission to a university don't necessarily give you a high-pay career.

We could give a warning in a sentence or two, but mostly this is common sense, at the abstraction level given in the article.

–LPfi (talk) 19:38, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

Notary services

Where do people think is a good place to put this information? I think this will be useful for people to know just in case they need legal documents to be notarized and sent back to their home countries while travelling abroad. Your country's embassy can provide this, but if I'm not wrong, you can look for a notary public if your country has no diplomatic post. And Commonwealth countries have what we call a "justice of the peace" who can notarise some documents for domestic use. The dog2 (talk) 18:48, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

How likely is it that a traveller needs a notary? I expect the likelihood of needing one depends on your home country - what documents need it. Although I occasionally need to get my signature witnessed, I have been able to ask anybody that knows me to do this; I don't think I have ever had to get a document notarized. There are also probably loads of complexities about foreign notaries being accepted in your home country. In general, I would suggest phoning the nearest consulate and asking advice. I think that notary services are not something we need to list, but if there is some local quirk to be aware of, then it should go in the country's cope section. AlasdairW (talk) 20:35, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, my answer is "nowhere." User:The dog2, as a U.S. citizen, I have to get a document notarized at most once every 10 years on average, yet you think we should yet again increase the length of the United States article by adding information of notarization. Could you please stop and have some self-control?! Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:01, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

I too think this is incredibly niche to mention. //shb (t | c | m) 23:14, 16 April 2025 (UTC)

+1. Ground Zero (talk) 00:14, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Here's a fun fact about notaries in California: The Spanish cognate, notario, is an important type of legal specialist. Having your will drafted by a (Mexican) notario is a very good thing. But in California, a notary public is basically a secretary who took a six-hour class and passed a multiple-choice test. As a result, California no longer allows people to get their wills notarized (it's banned, not merely non-required), because so many immigrants thought that they were paying for a really valuable legal service, and the family got nasty surprises after their loved ones died.

On the general question: I don't think this is a useful thing to add. It's rarely needed while traveling, and if you do need it, you probably need specialized advice. For example, if you need a notarized signature for home-country real estate purposes while you're abroad, then you need to find, in your current location, a notary service that will be acceptable to your home country. But if you're updating your will during a long stay, you need someone that will be acceptable to both your home country and your current country. Providing a recommendation might encourage people to do something that doesn't actually work. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:15, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Possibly it could be added to Working in the United States. If somebody is in the US for a year or three, it is much more likely that they will need a document notarized to be accepted in the US, and so the difficult question of foreign acceptance is avoided. Also the Working in article is only 13k, and needs expansion in other areas. AlasdairW (talk) 20:53, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Also, if you are living abroad but you still have assets back home, you might need notarial services for things like delegating a power of attorney to a family member back home. The dog2 (talk) 20:55, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Would you? If so, though, that's not specifically about working or studying abroad. I'd like some comments from fellow workers (i.e.,

not members of the leisure class or people who are purely business owners) in the U.S. on whether they've needed to have anything notarized for work. I don't ever recall doing that. I believe the last time I had to have a document notarized was in connection with opening a corporate bank account, so I'd argue that if we decide to cover notarization in the U.S. at all, it should be in a "doing business in the U.S." article, but I still doubt its inclusion would be necessary, and I hope no-one wants to start that article right now, with all the totally unnecessary, manufactured chaos that our "dear leader" is producing. Maybe "avoiding trade with the U.S." would be a more useful article...(but it's not about travel). Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:15, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Never for work, though if you work in real estate or some other legal-adjacent field, you might visit a notary frequently.

I have needed to have documents notarized a few times. A durable power of attorney might have been one of them. However, in California, I believe that having two witnesses for the power of attorney is also acceptable, so it might have been something else. It's been more than a decade since I needed a notary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:51, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You could be living abroad for work. But anyway, I was thinking more of notarization in general rather than in the U.S. specifically. There is the Hague Convention of 1961, and signatory countries will generally grant legal recognition to documents notarised and apostilled by another signatory country, with a few exceptions (e.g. India does not legally recognise documents notarised and apostilled by China). The dog2 (talk) 21:53, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

If you work in real estate, you probably wouldn't be reading Wikivoyage for this kind of advice anyway. //shb (t | c | m) 23:53, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

This discussion has demonstrated convincingly that the use of notaries is such a rare and exceptional occurence that notary services should never have been stuck into a country-level article. The attempt to do so shows a lack of understanding of what Wikivoyage is trying to do, or a disregard for the project's objectives, especially when it is a pattern of behaviour. Ground Zero (talk) 01:58, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

I agree it's very unusual for a traveller to need notary services on the road. However, I think a brief discussion of apostille certificates might be reasonable in a general article such as Visa, Working abroad, or Living abroad. I've needed an apostille twice in the process of applying for work visas. I don't see a case for mentioning this anywhere outside of the context of visa application processes, though. Issues like delegating a power of attorney are not really travel advice, but drifting into the realm of general life advice. —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:37, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

Vote now on the revised UCoC Enforcement Guidelines and U4C Charter

The voting period for the revisions to the Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Guidelines ("UCoC EG") and the UCoC's Coordinating Committee Charter is open now through the end of 1 May (UTC) (find in your time zone). Read the information on how to participate and read over the proposal before voting on the UCoC page on Meta-wiki.

The Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) is a global group dedicated to providing an equitable and consistent implementation of the UCoC. This annual review of the EG and Charter was planned and implemented by the U4C. Further information will be provided in the coming months about the review of the UCoC itself. For more information and the responsibilities of the U4C, you may review the U4C Charter.

Please share this message with members of your community so they can participate as well.

In cooperation with the U4C -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 00:35, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Speedy deleting user pages of touts

There is a discussion in Wikivoyage talk:Don't tout#When should promotional user pages be deleted?.

It seems that we have a practice of speedy deleting user pages of touts, which isn't documented is Wikivoyage:Deletion policy#Speedy deletions. I assume that means that the policy should be amended. The question is whether any user page with promotional content can be speedily deleted at sight, or whether there needs to be some consideration of the specifics of the user page content or the user's contributions. If there is admin discretion involved, we should probably have some guidance.

At the moment, the discussion is about whether preserving a user page can be required for attribution purposes, or whether attributing the username itself suffices legally (in cases where the user's contributions are copyrightable, and we thus need to respect the licence).

Other issues should also be discussed.

Please share your insights and opinions in the linked thread.

–LPfi (talk) 08:26, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

Template:Add vegetarian

Some articles or sections on food don't include any advice for vegetarians, such as Spanish cuisine, Russia, and Brazil. This would reduce discouragement from vegetarian travel to these countries since they don't have any specialized advice. The template should look like:

Categories: Articles needing advice for vegetarians

Faster than Thunder (talk) 00:16, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

I don't see how adding more tags will help for what would otherwise be a niche problem. //shb (t | c | m) 00:27, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

experience in Wikivoyage has been that these sort of templates tend not to achieve very much of anything, except to add clutter to an article. Wikivoyage doesn't have the large contributor base of Wikipedia, unfortunately, where a template like this would be so effective way of addressing gaps in coverage. Any contributions you could make by adding listings for vegetarian restaurants would be very welcome, and would achieve much more than a template noting that we don't have such listings. Ground Zero (talk) 01:03, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

This template would make it easier to find others interested in such improvements, even among the sheer contributor base of Wikivoyage. This would be more effective if categorization is attached to the template. Faster than Thunder (talk) 03:46, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

And past style tags that do exactly as you propose have proven to not work as you suggest on this site before. //shb (t | c | m) 03:50, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

This template could be added to almost every Wikivoyage article. We have a way to find others interested in making a type of improvements: create a Wikivoyage:Expeditions. Adding templates is not how you find others interested in such improvements. Ground Zero (talk) 03:52, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm your target audience, as someone who hesitates to add vegetarian-specific content because I consider my dietary preferences to be niche.

I agree that this template is not worth the visual clutter. I wonder if there's instead a way to leverage the Travel as a vegetarian article, both to highlight the cuisine articles with useful content, and to somehow call attention to articles that are missing the opportunity? Gerode (talk) 04:12, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

@Gerode, that's a good idea, but it's also helpful to have information in the more specific articles. I'd rather have both/and instead of either/or.

IMO it would be nice to have a little bit of information for a variety of "niche" diets. That could include vegetarian, vegan, gluten-free, low-carb, diabetic, etc. Perhaps if it feels weird to add a paragraph about vegetarian food, it'd feel less weird if you add a couple of lines about another dietary pattern. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:16, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

@Gerode: I see nothing at all wrong with adding information about restricted diets in destination articles. We provide information for women travellers, people with disabilities, LGBT people, why not vegetarians and other restricted diets? It would only be an improvement yo our travel guide. Ground Zero (talk) 11:06, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more with this. And the point isn't whether vegetarianism is mainstream in most Western countries - it is - but that information useful to vegetarians is good to include, and for that matter can often be useful for non-vegetarians who want to eat more vegetables, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:08, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

…Or want to experience a different kind of meal – as good a variation as going to the Nepalese or Georgian restaurant, if the vegetarian restaurant is good. Also in mainstream restaurants, the vegetarian options can be as good as the non-vegetarian ones in their price range. At cafeterias, the vegan/vegetarian options are on occasion more tempting than the non-vegetarian dishes of the day. –LPfi (talk) 15:25, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing, Gerode, Ground Zero: Maybe this won't be as nearly as bad of an idea as when I first thought of it a while ago, but is there any interest in creating an expedition specifically for improving everything related to food and drink on this site (more than just vegetarianism)? I'd be down for it if there's general interest. //shb (t | c | m) 05:42, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

I didn't say vegetarianism is niche, I said the way I like to eat is niche 😛 Enough so that I don't find individual Eat listings to be useful for me personally for most destinations, even ones with high-quality articles. I need to ponder what a delightful-for-me wiki-based food and drink experience would look like. (And in the meantime, be bolder about adding places near my home that I like!) Gerode (talk) 18:00, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

SHB, I don't know what tends to result in a successful expedition. If we decide to create one, then maybe a note at w:en:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink would find some new contributors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:26, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

Good idea – and would be a great way to get some contributors over from Wikipedia. //shb (t | c | m) 22:42, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

@Faster than Thunder: Whatever said by Ground Zero and SHB2000 are unfortunately true. Wikivoyage does not have the workforce equivalent to Wikipedia (although the English version is way more active than some Indian-language versions), and that's why I discourage users adding such templates. I remember adding a {{movetodistrict}} template at the Drink section of Kolkata years ago, but I moved those listings to districts only recently. If the vegetarian issue seems pressing, I suggest starting a discussion at the talk page of the affected article. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 04:01, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

Really, the best solution is just to add vegetarian listings yourself when you see that they are lacking. Even if you don't know the city in question yourself, it's better than nothing to look up eateries in any halfway reliable source you have and put descriptions in your own words. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:30, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

Though in the case of cuisine articles, bringing up a lack of vegetable dishes on the talk page could be appropriate. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:31, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

I definitely agree and is a very good point you bring up regarding cuisine articles. //shb (t | c | m) 04:36, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

Templates requesting editor action are only useful if it is a five minute task which can be done without knowing the article subject. For example crop when a banner is the wrong dimensions, or Dead link. In the case of Spanish cuisine, the template would not be useful as the corresponding Wikipeda article doesn't have a vegetarian or vegan section. If you can find some information on vegetarian dishes in restaurants in Spain, it would be better to start a section with the limited info that you have (and even if you check many menus and find no vegetarian dishes then saying the options are poor is a start). AlasdairW (talk) 12:29, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

Vegetarian is certainly not niche, in developed western countries it's a mainstream offering in most outlets, so much that I wouldn't even mention it in a listing. Any half-competent chef can serve veggies on request, especially with cuisines where meat is an add-on rather than the basis. East Europe is evolving fast as they see what westerner visitors expect. Any attempt to specially flag such places will sink under the clutter of flags. Vegan and GF are rapidly expanding from a lower starting point so I'd always mention this if either the restaurant website or customer reviews did so, but give it a few more years, that might no longer be necessary. Grahamsands (talk) 13:09, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

Any Western half-competent chef can serve veggies, but whether they can fix a culinary experience with what they have at hand is not as sure. If I have vegan guests, or even vegetarian ones, here in Turku (200,000 inhabitants), the restaurants where I'd take them for a nicer lunch or dinner can be counted on one hand's fingers. In other restaurants the vegetarian options are not among the flagship ones. Off the beaten path the vegetarian options may be quite mediocre, and you can find the odd place where there is no vegetarian choice at all ("a hamburger without the beef, please").

Ergo, for Western countries like Finland, I would still try to list vegetarian restaurants in any city article, and describe the general situation in the country article (Travel as a vegetarian#In the West shows that such summaries are needed).

–LPfi (talk) 15:14, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

The "cuisine" articles linked seem to be about introducing people to a specific kind of national or ethnic cuisine (Spanish cuisine, Russian cuisine, etc) as an overview (without restaurants), so I'm not sure those are the proper articles for this information since the vegetarian options may lie outside of the traditional cuisine, but the country articles should definitely say something about it. And restaurant listings can obviously say if a place is vegetarian/vegan or if it has enough variety of options to make it worth noting. But it's really up to editors to add that information if they are aware. I agree with others that it's too niche to be worth having its own box demanding special focus from editors. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:41, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

Still, they may be watched by people who are knowledgable of the cuisine scene in the related region, so their talk page may be a good venue for a discussion. Also, most cuisines have some mainly vegetarian dishes, which could be made vegetarian by minor tweaks. I think a Cope section, like Finnish cuisine#Dietary restrictions would suit most cuisine articles. Often the cuisine is found in a region sharing other features, such that specific other options (such as going to a Buddhist restaurant) may be relevant. One can also point out in passing that a dish may be a good option for those with certain diets, or issues with a seemingly suitable dish (such as fish sauce in Vietnam). I agree that the country articles should say something about these issues (also about halal/kosher and other common diets). –LPfi (talk) 08:01, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Some extra info at Rome?

The coming days/weeks things for parts of Rome and/or The Vatican might be different from usual. The death of the Pope will have consequences for the Vatican Museums and Sistine Chapel, and also for the Santa Maria Maggiore church.

• Vatican Museums and Sistine Chapel could be closed at certain days. During the election of a new Pope the museums could be opened, but the Sistine Chapel will be closed. What happens with tickets ordered and paid for online?
• Santa Maria Maggiore might be closed for preparations for creating the gave for the Pope. After the burial it might become very busy with very long queues of waiting people.

Do we provide info to the travelers for the coming days/weeks? FredTC (talk) 14:48, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Absolutely. Please go ahead and provide that information, and thank you! Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:51, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

@FredTC, you might want to use Template:Cautionbox. It takes a date, which will make it easier to find and remove that information in the future. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:41, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Writing listings with AI

The latest versions of Gemini can now create Wikivoyage listings with a very simple prompt. here's an example where everything is factually correct (no hallucinations!), and everything except the price range and opening hours was correctly formatted on the first try. I tweaked the prompt a bit and it did better on those too.

I'm not sure I want to encourage people to do this, but whether we like it or not, the technology is now here. Jpatokal (talk) 07:28, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Very interesting; amazing how far AI has come (I also have mixed feelings, but it does mean that we could use Gemini to format things for us). //shb (t | c | m) 07:59, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

What's important to me is that the content is good.

I would worry more about trying to write whole articles. I worry less about tools to organize a description of a place you've already hand-selected. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:37, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Adding listing templates in the mobile version

Forgetting about AI for a second: SingyeDzong asked me where the buttons are to add blank listing templates in articles from an iPhone. I checked several articles and couldn't find an easy way to do this (I was thinking I'd have to resort to copying an existing templated listing and then changing all the contents of every tab, which would be a huge pain!). Why is there no "Add a listing" button in sections of articles in Wikivoyage mobile, and what can be done to make this process a lot simpler? Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:01, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

You can see the absence of the links by clicking this link: https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Pella_(Iowa)?useskin=minerva There is no [add listing] button, and there are no little edit buttons at the end of each listing. The listing editor doesn't appear to load at all in that skin. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:43, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Seems the listing editor only works on Vector? //shb (t | c | m) 23:56, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Seems to be the other way around, rather. Line 28 in MediaWiki:Gadget-ListingEditor.js explicitly forbids the extension from running on Minerva. That line was added following this discussion from almost two years ago.
― Wauteurz (talk) 00:21, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

We really need to improve the mobile experience. We should assume substantial number of our readers and editors to be reading or editing while on the road. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 13:34, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

I am a bit confused as I added the listing editing on mobile beta a few months ago and was waiting for feedback which I never got.

I see it on https://en.m.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Ikoma for example when I expand a section. It appears as an icon next to the edit link.

If the beta one looks good then with at least 2-3 people's support I can turn it on. Jdlrobson (talk) 15:55, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

screenshot: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/F59381242 Jdlrobson (talk) 15:57, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

[edit conflict]

There is a really simple cause why the listing editor is not available for mobile versions: it uses the jQuery library jquery.ui which provides the dialog-elements support which is not available on mobile devices (better: on Minerva skins). Of course you can change the skin on mobile devices but this would not be a real helpful tool on mobile devices.

For my opinion, their is no simple replacement the jQuery library. The tool has to be reprogrammed from scratch which would be a comprehensive project, and I do not know who should do it. When the old tool was created there was no alternative like OOjs which is, moreover, more difficult to use than jQuery.ui. --RolandUnger (talk) 16:07, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

AFD we might want to transwiki

See w:en:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Recreation in Huntington, West Virginia. This is about an article, w:en:Recreation in Huntington, West Virginia that might be more useful if transwiki'd here and merged into Huntington (West Virginia) than if it is left there.

(NB: If you copy/paste or transwiki anything (e.g., one or more sentences) out of that article, please say so at the AFD. Just a quick heads-up or a link to a diff would be helpful to them.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:11, 24 April 2025 (UTC)