Previous unilaterally-applied Star, going for confirmation. Anything that's missing from the article is probably also missing from the destination.:) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 10:45, 15 May 2006 (EDT)
Support. This is pretty much the template of what a perfect national park article should look like. (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:15, 15 June 2006 (EDT)
Support. Great article. -- (WT-en) Ryan 13:11, 21 June 2006 (EDT)
Comment: I was wrong about my "anything missing from the article" remark above; I just got back from 10 days hiking from one end of IR to other, and I have stuff to add.:) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 18:03, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
Support. I don't think "nothing missing" is a necessary condition:) (WT-en) Hypatia 21:07, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
Support. What Hypatia said. -- (WT-en) Colin 19:39, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
Support. very nice article(WT-en) Berru 13:15, 30 June 2006 (EDT)
It's a little surprising that this was ever nominated for star status. There are long lists of campsites (it lists 36 options), hardly any coordinates at all, and a lot of hyphens where there shouldn't be hyphens. Not saying the article should necessarily be de-starred, but I'm interested on other opinions for this one. While fixing is better than de-starring, things like fixing a list that's too long require consensus and aren't jobs that should be done on a star-status article. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:43, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In an area of 74 km × 14 km it is not surprising to have many places to sleep. Here it isn't a question on choosing among adjacent hotels, but finding a place to sleep in the area you chose to visit. As such, I suppose the list should not be trimmed (the much less visited Käsivarsi Wilderness Area lists 28 lodgings, Nordkalottleden some fifty, for similar reasons). Coordinates should of course be added (I suppose they were not common and not as usable when the article was written) and the camping sites should probably be grouped in some sensible way. Getting rid of dashes seems an easy task. Fixing these problems should not be too difficult. --LPfi (talk) 09:30, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure why it's surprising that this article was ever nominated for star? Indeed, it has few coordinates - but you should know that only a few years ago, dynamic maps where not accepted by all to serve in star articles, and static maps where considered to be better in terms of usability. Long lists are not all that uncommon in star articles either, since they are expected to be "essentially complete. That requirement does invite relatively wide lists of options in all categories. Now, if usability is seriously compromised and cannot easily be restored, de-starring is warranted. In this case, however, and while I'm all for adding coordinates, the static map is still available and the lack of coordinates therefore appears to have a limited impact in terms of usability for travellers. All in all, I also think this article should be fixed up a bit, but not de-starred. JuliasTravels (talk) 12:04, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So I'd like to nominate Singapore as the first "Huge city" Star -- which means that not only the main article but all its districts need to be in tip-top shape. Note that all listings now use the new HTML listing format, so if they don't display according to the MoS, you can blame Evan, not me. =P Fire away! (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:26, 15 June 2006 (EDT)
Support, but I think it lacks one thing — a map of downtown, something that helps me get from, say, Raffles to People's Park on foot. (WT-en) Pashley 03:23, 21 June 2006 (EDT)
Support. This is the template for how to set up a city article. The map on Singapore/Central looks sufficient for the needs of most travelers (in addition to the many other maps). Great photos, too. -- (WT-en) Ryan 13:11, 21 June 2006 (EDT)
My error, not finding the maps. (WT-en) Pashley 10:58, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
No, the guide's error for putting it in a bad place. I've been thinking about ditching the Central sub-region entirely and merging the little info it has to the main page, I'm not sure it adds much value. (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:18, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
Support! V comprehensive article (WT-en) Tsandell 15:25, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
Support! Excellent article (WT-en) Jan 13:29, 28 June 2006 (EDT)
Previous comment removed -- (WT-en) Colin 22:59, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
Actually, the stated criteria for a "star" city article require only that any district articles be "guide" quality. When I drafted these criteria, I figured some leniency ought to be given regarding the imperfections of sub-articles. I haven't had a chance to go through the main article carefully yet, but from what I've seen, perhaps with a little MoS proofreading, it has my support. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 22:20, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
Thanks! I'll limit my critique to the actual article then. -- (WT-en) Colin 22:59, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
Support, absolutely, great content. --(WT-en) Terence Ong 06:57, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
Support. Great one... love the place. -BratX.
Support. Awesomely done! 66.9.126.26 19:10, 24 July 2006 (EDT)
The information in this guide is very complete, and it includes detailed information for every heading. The map could be better, but the existing map is still useful. -- (WT-en) Ryan 14:20, 4 November 2006 (EST)
Support -- (WT-en) Colin 15:39, 4 November 2006 (EST)
Support, with a qualification. One minor addition to "Get in" I'd like to see, after which I would unequivocally support it: what's the best way to get there via plane (i.e., what's the nearest airport with commercial service, how far away is it, on what roads)? -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 16:27, 4 November 2006 (EST)
I've added a By plane section using information from the nps.gov site - hopefully that's sufficient, but any other feedback is appreciated. -- (WT-en) Ryan 16:55, 4 November 2006 (EST)
Looks good to me. Unqualified support now. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 16:56, 4 November 2006 (EST)
Support. -- (WT-en) Tim 17:04, 4 November 2006 (EST)
Support. Really a great example of a park guide. And nice work on the get in by plane section. (WT-en) Maj 17:17, 5 November 2006 (EST)
Great article with lots of detailed information, and (WT-en) Mark has done his usual wonders in cartography. -- (WT-en) Ryan 14:20, 4 November 2006 (EST)
I think it's largely there, but of course I'm biased.:-) (Thanks, Ryan.) One question: should there be a "Stay safe" section? It isn't routine for a "Small city" to have one, and Santa Fe is a small city (population under 70,000) despite its celebrity. However, if there's a consensus that such a section belongs, owing to the vast number of people that visit, I'll add one. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 15:37, 4 November 2006 (EST)
Since "stay safe" is an optional section I don't think one should be required here - not having such a section doesn't (IMHO) prevent this article from being a "star" article, but adding one would only be a good thing. -- (WT-en) Ryan 15:58, 4 November 2006 (EST)
Support -- (WT-en) Colin 15:39, 4 November 2006 (EST)
Support. excellent map and good use of photos! (WT-en) Maj 17:17, 5 November 2006 (EST)
Can't really think of anything major missing anymore, although the History section is kinda dinky. Even the linked cities and destinations seem to be in decent shape. (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:38, 26 November 2006 (EST)
As regards "linked cities and destinations," there are some possibly significant loose ends in the "Get in" section (particularly under "By boat") that should be tidied up, IMO. Otherwise, I agree, this is an excellent country article. I think I could support it without those repairs; I know I would support it once they are made. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:54, 26 November 2006 (EST)
I've added outlines for Hanko and Ivalo, which were the only redlinks left. Anything else? (WT-en) Jpatokal 13:28, 26 November 2006 (EST)
You might also look at Naantali and Kapellskär, which are referenced lower in the section. Can't see anything else. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 13:32, 26 November 2006 (EST)
Kapellskär is in Sweden, so it's not really applicable. Naantali does deserve an entry for Moomin World(tm) if nothing else, I'll write it up when it's not 3 AM here anymore... (WT-en) Jpatokal 13:37, 26 November 2006 (EST)
The status rating says that it should have different choices for which regions or cities to visit ("usable" status or better). Does this mean "1 or more" have usable status or "more than one"? Finland appears to have only one region beyond usable, though it has several cities beyond usable.
It would be nice if the the Åland region were upgraded to outline.
Would be nice if the ferries listed in Get in/By boat contained more than just a web address.
If there are more pictures that could be added, I think the article would benefit.
Ferry section rewritten and more pictures added. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:03, 27 November 2006 (EST)
Support - nice article with decent pictures/maps and very good content. -- (WT-en) Tim 18:58, 30 November 2006 (EST)
Support, but the following are "would be nice" items:
The quickbar image is nice, but doesn't seem to conjure thoughts of Finland for me. Is there a more iconic image that could be used?
Well, Finland really is "the land of 10,000 lakes", so it's actually very representative scenery and kinda iconic. Other options include Helsinki's Cathedral, which already has a prime position in that article, and the sauna pic further below, which would be kinda weird for a country article. On the German WT, they've got a picture of some red houses in the countryside, but I'm not sure that says "Finland" more than it says "somewhere in northern Europe". At any rate, you're welcome to trawl through my pics and look for something better, but while pics like this or this may be arty and accurate, I'm not sure they're very attractive! (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:22, 30 November 2006 (EST)
I'll obviously defer to the Finn as to what's the best image for Finland, although from an aesthetic standpoint I like the image of Lenin looking backwards as well as the picture of the dock that's centered, stretching out into the lake. -- (WT-en) Ryan 02:46, 1 December 2006 (EST)
The "Learn" section is currently just two links. It would be good if there were at least descriptions of the links, and preferably some information about learning opportunities in Finland.
These are minor nits - this is a really good article. -- (WT-en) Ryan 21:36, 30 November 2006 (EST)
Extraordinarily complete guide, with multiple maps for a little-known destination. (WT-en) Paul has put in great effort on this guide. —(WT-en) Ravikiran 18:39, 18 November 2006 (EST)
Support. Great article. My only reservation would be due to the author's comments on Talk:Dalian about splitting the article into districts - if the article is going to be split into districts then we should postpone this nomination until that happens, but I don't think a split is necessary. -- (WT-en) Ryan 19:56, 18 November 2006 (EST)
The article has now been split into districts, which look good to me. My only reservations would be:
There is no "Contact" heading for any of the districts. I personally don't think that not having that heading should prevent the article from becoming a star, but the Project:District article template includes it for reasons that I've never fully understood.
Many of the accommodation and other listings are missing contact information. Based on Paul's comment that some of this information isn't available I don't think this should prevent the article from becoming a star, but it would still be nice to have.
Doesn't the contact header within district articles serve as a place to list internet cafes, telephone shops, or post offices so we can contact the world? -- Sapphire
Yes, but I've never understood why it's a required part of the district article template but not (for example) the small city article template. I'm not sure that it's important enough information that it needs to be included for all district articles. -- (WT-en) Ryan 21:39, 30 November 2006 (EST)
I don't think it a necessity for every district to have a contact section either, but there should be, at the very least, a "Contact" section on the main article to explain area codes for land phones and cell phones, and postal codes. I support. -- (WT-en) Andrew H. (Sapphire) 21:45, 30 November 2006 (EST)
I thought I had included a contact section (I could have sworn I mentioned the post offices at least) but evidently my brain was playing tricks on me again. Anyway, I have now added a section, and I'm pretty sure I didn't just imagine it this time. --(WT-en) Paul. 00:16, 1 December 2006 (EST)
I just made a sweep for typos and punctuation (avoiding for the moment the usual issues of "English English" vs. "American English"), and that should all be in good shape. As for hours, if the information isn't available, no penalty for not including it. Support, and kudos to User:(WT-en) Paul. for a fantastic job on a little-known place. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 15:43, 16 December 2006 (EST)
Well I've split the article into regions now (I'd been busy working on maps and completely forgot about it), if it seems like overkill I can always roll it back. I'll do a copyedit for commas and time and date formats, as far as phone numbers and opening times are concerned, however, I've filled in everything I can but some of the information simply isn't available from here in the UK. --(WT-en) Paul. 11:14, 24 November 2006 (EST)
Support, unless folks think we need to wait on more info for listings and/or for the districts to settle down. Great work though! (WT-en) Maj 23:45, 26 November 2006 (EST)
So, I'm going to apply the coveted designator shortly, unless anyone objects. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 15:47, 16 December 2006 (EST)
A comprehensive article (the exception being get out) that has decent pictures and is well written. Maybe needs a map? I'd also like to see some smaller destinations make star - an article doesn't need to be gigantic to be star! -- (WT-en) Tim 04:58, 2 December 2006 (EST)
I'm afraid a map is, on purpose, a definite requirement for a Star article. (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:17, 2 December 2006 (EST)
I've now drawn and added a map to help the article along. --(WT-en) Paul. 13:43, 2 December 2006 (EST)
Excellent. I can only think of one more complaint: can you explain what exactly "machair" and "crofting" are? (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:55, 2 December 2006 (EST)
Crofting is I think a traditional type of farming, but I can't be more specific than that. I have no idea what a machair is, that term baffled me when reading the article. Unfortunately I'm not a Hebrediean, I just like making maps. --(WT-en) Paul. 23:20, 2 December 2006 (EST)
Crofting can be most succinctly described as subsistence farming on someone else's land. Machair is a former beach which is now a suitable for growing vegetation. I agree that both could be better described in the article. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 18:25, 4 December 2006 (EST)
Hello from Berneray! The map is uncannily good. I have edited 'crofting' and 'machair'; hope they are clearer. -- (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 10 December 2006
I seem to detect an incompatibility between the statement "Outdoor activities include boat trips to nearby islands and to see the seals close up, windsurfing, canoeing, and kayaking" in "Do," and the "Get out" statement that Berneray is the end of the line and the only way out is the way you came in. Please resolve this (ideally with more information about those "boat trips to nearby islands" -- how do you arrange them? what islands? what's to do on the islands? etc.) after which I'll vote to support; the rest of it looks good. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 00:16, 3 December 2006 (EST)
I'd love to see more small destinations make star status. However, I don't think this article is ready yet. This article needs some addresses and phone numbers for listed items; a good scrubbing of the prose (count the number of punctuation mistakes, for instance); phone numbers aren't in standard format; and a lot of information is just left out. Do we need to break down this region article into separate village articles for each of the 5 villages listed? I think that it's exceptional when we don't do that, and we should be extra careful in those cases. Here's a troubling quote: There are many historical remains and sites, dating from Viking times and before, through to more contemporary structures. A guide book (£1) is available from the shop and information centre which details and maps some of these sites. Sorry, but "buy the one-pound guidebook" is not my idea of a star guide. --(WT-en) Evan 08:05, 3 December 2006 (EST)
Evan, the entire island has a population of 126 — breaking this into villages is not likely to be very useful. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:17, 3 December 2006 (EST)
Agreed, Jani, unless the villages are sufficiently distant, distinctive, and noteworthy to merit their own articles. It doesn't seem to be the case with Berneray. This island may be the exception that proves the geographical hierarchy rule. However, that's going to require some careful management, then -- what does this strategy mean for how we do addresses in listings, for example? --(WT-en) Evan 08:28, 3 December 2006 (EST)
"What does this strategy mean"? IMO, it means the approach is successful and correct: drive the elaboration down to the lowest level where it makes sense. In this case, Berneray is that level. Check the dimensions as well as the population. You're talking about an island smaller than some city neighborhoods -- not even districts. Further elaboration is almost like giving an individual house an article. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 10:18, 3 December 2006 (EST)
You misquote me. I said, "What does this strategy mean for how we do addresses in listings?" I agree that the level of detail here is correct, but I was being much more specific in my question. If we conglomerate a number of villages (hamlets, really) into one article, like we (correctly IMHO) do in Berneray, do we need to specify where each listing is -- say, adding the name of the hamlet after the street address, if it exists? I think my point in general is that our Manual of style doesn't treat this kind of region directly, so it's difficult to say whether our guide on Berneray meets the MoS exactly. --(WT-en) Evan 12:46, 4 December 2006 (EST)
In this instance, I don't believe the village names are needed to locate the establishments; I'm not even sure if street and house numbers are even applicable in all cases. An "address" should be whatever the locals use to distinguish this place from that place, or to tell where something is located; whether they follow national postal-service standards shouldn't be an issue. As for the MoS, if the inclusion of the village or neighborhood were necessary to locate a place, it could be added in parentheses as "extra directions"... or simply accepted as part of the address, much like the NE/NW/SW/SE designations for Washington, D.C. are. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 18:25, 4 December 2006 (EST)
This article should not have been nominated for a star till the listings and info are more complete. The Get Around section just has two lines. There are no options for eating/sleeping. However, the images and map are very good. Punctuation needs to be dealt with.
Huh? There are half a dozen Sleep options listed, but there's only one Eat listing because it's only one standalone restaurant on the island. I don't really see what else could be added to Get around either as there's obviously no public transport, although it would be nice to know if taxis/rented cars are an option at all. (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:38, 4 December 2006 (EST)
Population figure updated. Breaking it into villages is pointless as they all merge into one here anyway. People are located by their name and house, not by "village". Added nearest taxi company. My punctuation is indeed lousy and hope someone else can make better. -- (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 10 December 2006
I think this is a swell Off The Beaten Path destination (I nominated it), and I think it's a nice "guide" article (I did a fair amount of the online research and MOS-ing for that). But I don't think it's a "star", even with the map and the recent proofreading. The problem isn't the depth or breadth of the listings; I believe they're darn near exhaustive. It's the first-person guidance. The original author contributed a fair amount of the been-there info that a really good Wikivoyage article needs, but I think it needs more of that in several areas (e.g. Yeah, what about those viking remains? Or car hire?) to really say that this article is really all-that-and-a-bag-of-crisps. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 22:12, 4 December 2006 (EST)
Some of the B&Bs do not have a location listed. Phone numbers should be begin with a + for international dialing and be formatter per Project:Phone numbers. The Eat listing needs some pricing info. The reference to Angus MacAskill should be reworked since the text seems to imply I should recognize the name, and I don't. -- (WT-en) Colin 02:26, 5 December 2006 (EST)
Formatted phone numbers. Reworked MacAskill. Added some eat listing pricing info. Added information about car hire, driving obstacles, walking on Berneray. -- (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 10 December 2006
I wrote the article so can't vote/nominate. One thing would like to stress after reading some of the comments is that, indeed, Berneray is devoid of lots of man-made facilities e.g. loads of places to eat, shopping arcades, whatever. That's what makes it attractive to a lot of people. -- (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 10 December 2006
Actually you can, and I think your latest round of edits has addressed pretty much all the complaints made above? I certainly can't see much that could be improved. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:16, 10 December 2006 (EST)
Agree with Jani on all counts; your vote counts as much as anyone else's. Support -- my previous comments have been addressed, and there may not be a destination on all of Wikivoyage where the ratio (article content/size of destination) is as high as this one. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 19:00, 15 December 2006 (EST)
More. Added cycle hire details. Added more about crafts. Made some corrections. The point about lack of Viking info was fair enough, so added loads of information on the historical sites and remains that are scattered across the islands. Removed pointless bit about the guidebook. Added detail about Giant MacAskill. Added detail about events, where to find out about them when on Berneray. Added more detail about getting to other islands and what to do there. Added stuff about crotal(litchen). Added notes about silence/noise. Added two more pictures, and a link to the online weather readings. Okay, I really am running out of information to include about Berneray! -- (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 10 December 2006
Support, but the Get Around Sections needs to be edited. Maybe a walking trail or s'thing could be mentioned. And Get In is kind of dinky too. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 06:45, 15 December 2006 (EST)
Support - I think I'm done messing around with minor cleanups (I hope they were all cleanups and not downs, anyone feel free to re-correct anything that I changed... but I think this article is in amazing shape, so hopefully in 2 days we can give it a new shiny label... (WT-en) Cacahuate 05:11, 16 December 2006 (EST)
I've added some more to the Get In section (another resident suggested that the latitude and longitude are v helpful to boaties). There's no recognised walking trail. Altered a few very minor mistakes that had crept in. Shown it to a few other Berneray residents who also can't think of any more stuff to add. -- (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 16 December 2006
Support. I have been to Berneray several times, and this is a good useful article. A few minor points (these can be ignored) - It is a pity that the spelling has been americanised, as this might deter local distribution of paper copies; The blackhouses might get more of a mention, as many visitors spending only an hour or two look at them; The first photo is of the snow, which is not typical (<10 days per year), maybe this should be swapped with one of the others to avoid giving the wrong first impression, or another view of Backhill or the beach could be used. (WT-en) AlasdairW 18:08, 17 December 2006 (EST)
What about 'Nutter on a beach' on John's website - if you think it's a better intro pic maybe he'll upload it for us... (WT-en) Cacahuate 03:06, 18 December 2006 (EST)
If you are refering to the picture of cows on a beach, it may be useful in future, but not here - they are on the beach on the island of Vatersay near Barra. I was thinking of one of the ones on isleofberneray.com of Backhill, or simply changing the order of the existing photos. (WT-en) AlasdairW 18:02, 18 December 2006 (EST)
No, I was referring to the one with the lone person on the beach, but actually I like the one you just mentioned better, gives a nice sense of place. I'll email John and ask if he'll upload it, I think that would make a nice intro pic, then we can move the snow one down a bit. (WT-en) Cacahuate 01:56, 19 December 2006 (EST)
Added more about blackhouses, plus a picture of a restored (and lived in) blackhouse. Added picture of Backhill at top (it has my house in it! Centre, slightly left, the white one with a weaving shed between it and the sea), and moved picture of snowy Berneray further down. Spaced out the pictures in the article more sensibly. (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 19 December 2006
And once again, thanks for all the work! Gotta put it on my list to visit now since it's taken so much of my attention - sounds like a nice place. :) (WT-en) Cacahuate 07:10, 19 December 2006 (EST)
I hate to rain on the parade, but I've reverted this article's status. "See" and "Do" in this article don't match our Manual of style for attraction listings. I realize that Berneray is going to be exceptional because of its tiny size, but that means we have to be extra careful and make sure the exception is an exemplary exception. --(WT-en) Evan 11:12, 20 December 2006 (EST)
I object vehemently. You are applying City criteria to something that, as any number of people have tried to explain, is far more like a Park than a City -- and by Park criteria, See and Do are just fine. Please explain why this set of standards is appropriate, as well as why you chose to make this action unilaterally after a great deal of discussion had already gone on and a consensus had been reached. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 11:24, 20 December 2006 (EST)
Star articles aren't a popularity contest, Bill, and if the article doesn't match the MoS, then it's not a star. That's the whole point of the article status system. "Star" == "perfectly matches the MoS". A consensus was not reached, either: I already gave my objections, above, and it should be obvious from my changing the article back to "guide" that I don't agree with this star status. The article is not fine as a "national park" -- it's not formatted as a park. Is this an exceptional location? Yes, indeed. We don't really cover teensy-tiny islands very well in the MoS. Does that mean we throw any old style into it and call it a star? I don't know. Personally, I'd much rather have some minor variants on Wikivoyage's MoS become stars, so we get used to it, before we throw in a really, really different. --(WT-en) Evan 11:37, 20 December 2006 (EST)
Balderdash. You have selectively omitted a key bit of the Star nomination language, which I quote here with emphasis added:
The article is essentially complete. It meets all of the above criteria. It follows the manual of style exactly or is the exception that proves the rule. Prose is not only near-perfect grammatically but also tight, effective, and enjoyable. {...}
The entire thrust of the very extensive discussion above is precisely that Beneray is such an exception. Why is that so hard to comprehend? We built the provision into the guidelines, for durn good reasons I would add; let us now do as the provision says. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 11:45, 20 December 2006 (EST)
well, i reluctantly just 'mos'd' the remains section, which can be roll back too... I agree it was better before. While I think that sticking to the MoS is very important, I think that dumbing down an article to conform isn't pushing it towards star any quicker. The list format suits attractions that have phone numbers and things, but for a pile of interesting rocks it's much more interesting in the format that it was in. Before you were able to follow it easier and it would be much easier I think to have used it as what it is - a guide to see the sights. I think Star Status should be for articles that are as good as they can be considering the location being written about, not for the best article that fits within the still relatively newly established guidelines. (WT-en) Cacahuate 11:51, 20 December 2006 (EST)
Agreed with Bill and Cacahuate. Evan, you're out of line here. (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:06, 20 December 2006 (EST)
Bill, I agree that Berneray is an exception, and that star articles should handle exceptions. The problem with the Berneray article isn't with the article -- it's with the MoS. Berneray is so much of an exception that it's not proving some rules and following others --it's messing with all of them. Its size and scattering of hamlets make it a challenge to the geographical hierarchy; its lack of street addresses makes it a challenge to all our listing formats. Its remote location and nature challenges which of the article templates to use. I'm really amazed with the amount of work that's gone into this article, but I still have serious reservations about it. We're breaking too much new ground with this article, and I'm really, really not happy with calling it a star. --(WT-en) Evan 12:25, 20 December 2006 (EST)
I repeat: balderdash. I have never seen a rule, anywhere, that is actually "proven" by an exception; that is a figure of speech with a widely understood meaning -- a meaning that, I continue to insist, is entirely applicable here. If the "proves the rule" language is causing problems, then let's fix it, but that's a separate issue. Meanwhile, the process has been followed and the grounds for an exception (as permitted by both the letter and the spirit of the guidelines) are entirely in hand and justified, at rather extraordinary length. This is a Star article, period. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:42, 20 December 2006 (EST)
Maybe it's a good opportunity to come to a consensus on what is the criteria or template standard for a place like this. I'm working on some others at the moment anyway, such as Havelock Island and some places in Mozambique that are going to come up against similar issues, so it would be nice to have a standard to measure them against... maybe Berneray can be or become that standard. No sense in just saying 'it isn't a star', let's figure out (again) how to make it one. (WT-en) Cacahuate 12:36, 20 December 2006 (EST)
I'm going to just take a tactical retreat here. I've rolled back my changes and yours, but if you think the changes were worth it, please feel free to reinstate them.
I have to admit that I had no idea as to the finality that people ascribed to the star status. I think it's unwarranted, and I think that the process here is just getting ironed out. However, I made a mistake in overruling the decision made here, even if I think it was wrong and that consensus wasn't reached. Star status means a lot to me, but I guess that means that I need to pay more attention to this page, rather than changing the decision made by people already. I'm sorry for the problems. --(WT-en) Evan 12:49, 20 December 2006 (EST)
Thank you. I, for one, appreciate this "tactical retreat" very much. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:51, 20 December 2006 (EST)
But it is still a good point - the MoS isn't clear about things like this... not that things need to be settled at this exact moment, but it would be nice to know what kind of formatting is going to be acceptable for the future... Evan obviously feels strongly against this format, so something should be figured out... (WT-en) Cacahuate 13:02, 20 December 2006 (EST)
Conversation re-opened in 2023:
I have no idea whether this small island merits its status, see Pro & Con on its discussion page. It's been updated and switched to Rural area. Grahamsands (talk) 19:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's a good article, but it isn't star status. I see several flaws in formatting and style. However, some of these may be able to be corrected. First, I recall our style guide directing that bulleted content should be prose unless it must be a bulleted list. The references to animal species, for example, should be converted to prose without bullet points. Hyphens are used where a dash would be more appropriate, and some sections don't have enough content. In fact, some listings are also listing coordinates, which would put even guide status in question. I believe some of these changes would benefit from research or local knowledge to be corrected. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 02:03, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Barring updates, Special:PermaLink/4733626 was very much star-worthy – it's far more readable, instead of the current endless list of bulletted POIs with useful information hidden in a fluff of text. No, I'm absolutely opposed to removing the star from an article that was very much star-worthy before an overhaul (something that *shouldn't* be done on star articles). --SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)02:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Outcome: star retained. In 12 months there was only one vote to retain and one to demote. Given this Rashomon-like agony of indecision, status quo prevails. Grahamsands (talk) 16:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Really comprehensive guide, with lots of info, maps, and great pictures. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 22:37, 5 February 2007 (EST)
Don't support. While it is no doubt a very good article, crucial listings are missing. Sleep/Eat info does not follow the MoS. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 09:41, 6 February 2007 (EST)
I echo PerryPlant in my support of the article! (WT-en) FrankEM
This information about Zion National Park leaves no "Stones Unturned" Very well done and has enlightened me to the wonders that lay in this Desert Oasis!--(WT-en) Bomabro84738 20:33, 6 February 2007 (EST)
Support as long as a few people who have been there agree that it is very comprehensive... Having not been there, it looks great to me. Good pics, good maps. A few minor things:
Hours for the liquor store at the Best Western would be nice, and a phone # if they have one. The article says that it's in Springdale but the listing isn't on that page at all.
Are the Coral Pink Sand Dunes not in Canyon Country? If so, maybe move up with the other parks in the "Get out" section.
Where does the "information" phone# go to in the get in by bus section? Is it for Greyhound or one of the unnamed tour agencies?
Otherwise I think it looks pretty darn good... Upamanyu, I've cleaned the article up a bit, have I addressed your concerns? (WT-en)::: Cacahuate 02:52, 7 February 2007 (EST)
Yeah, support. You've really done a good job, Cacahuate. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 05:12, 9 February 2007 (EST)
I hike and live there and I think the information is correct. I think all is fixed now.:)(WT-en) FrankEM
Good eye Cacahuate. I checked around, and the phone# is for the greyhound service in Utah. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 16:46, 7 February 2007 (EST)
Any other comments or dislikes? So far it's looking like all are in favor... (WT-en) - Cacahuate 13:54, 12 February 2007 (EST)
Looks good. 1 small snag - sleep is looking dinky. strong support - (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 07:36, 13 February 2007 (EST)
Don't support. This is an excellent guide but still has faults that keep it from being star quality. The maps aren't Wikivoyage maps, but copies of the public domain maps from the parks system. No vector graphics source for the maps. Also, the hikes under do (which I think are listed out very well) could use some directions to the trailhead, rather than just naming the trail. There's no address, hours, or contact info for the Zion Human History Museum under "Buy". No hours or prices for the Castle Dome Cafeteria. No prices for the Red Rock Grill. The paragraph on camping at Lava Point should be a listing, or integrated into the "Backcountry" section. The camping listings should be in the new listing format. I think the problems with this guide could be fixed quickly, though. --(WT-en) Evan 08:01, 13 February 2007 (EST)
I think I got everything you mentioned Evan, save for the maps. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:50, 13 February 2007 (EST)
I think this is ready now to be a star. It'd be nice to have the trailheads marked on the map, but I don't think perfect trail maps are necessary. We can leave those up to WikiOutdoors. --(WT-en) Evan 17:06, 22 February 2007 (EST)
Don't support. Excellent article, except for those maps. That is however something that can be addressed. The US National Parks Service has got a lot of GIS data online for Zion (Search Zion at or go directly to the Zion directory ). Boundaries, camps, trails etc is all there. Getting that into SVG format and into a png that looks like a wikivoyage map will take a little bit of time, but it will be a lot easier than creating maps from scratch. Two questions: 1) Is the park boundaries really that regular? It looks like someone just drew a couple of connecting straight lines to define the park. 2) Can someone confirm the legal status of using the GIS data on the NPS site. Can we create derivative work and license it under CC-BY-SA?
Yes, the park boundaries really are that regular.
I'm not sure "Wikivoyage-style maps" are needed for an article to achieve Star status. Look at Yosemite National Park, the only map on there is a road map of Yosemite that is a public domain image from the NPS site. And yet, Yosemite is a star article. I'm not saying the map issue shouldn't be addressed, but I'm not sure if it gets in the way of declaring Zion a Star article. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 21:03, 13 February 2007 (EST)
Agreed. There's a real issue a s to what maps are appropriate for a Park article, and there may even be reasons to prefer an NPS map if one is available (assuming copyright issues don't interfere, which I'm still not convinced is true). Explicitly accepting them would be a change in policy, which should not be made cavalierly, but can be made if appropriate. To assess the appropriateness, I suggest that this part of the discussion continue at Talk:United States National Parks, where I've broached the subject. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 21:25, 13 February 2007 (EST)
I'll add some additional comments to Talk:United States National Parks. I really like this article and will change my vote from Don't support to Support if we can reach consensus that NPS maps are OK, or if we deceide they are not OK and replace them.
Support. The article has a useful map that is licensed in the public domain; there isn't anything in the criteria that says a map has to be SVG or Wikivoyage branded, but there is nothing stopping us from adding such a map in the future. Regarding other issues that have been brought up, the star criteria is that an article "is essentially complete", but not necessarily perfect. The star nomination process is a great way for us to make minor corrections to already great articles, but I don't think a lack of perfection should be a reason for failing a nomination - delay maybe, but not fail. -- (WT-en) Ryan 23:32, 13 February 2007 (EST)
I think the level of quality would be: as good as we can get it, or as good as we know we can do. We're under no time constraint to get these guides out the door, and there's no pressure whatsoever to put "Star" stickers onto each and every article nominated. A lack of practical information that keeps travelers from using the guide (like missing listing info, addresses, hours, prices) isn't just nit-picking. It's the basic level of quality that travelers expect from any travel guide.
The map needs to be practically modifiable, and it needs to match our map style (just like the text needs to match our text style). I think it's pretty clear that such maps are better than public domain ones that we borrow from government sources; I think we also have existence proof that they're not impossible to make. The NPS ones are fine until we get a real Wikivoyage map done, of course. I'll update the star criteria to make this clear.
Let's not get confused about the symbol and the thing symbolized. If we put the "star" badge on an article that does not meet real star standards, we don't make that guide any better; we just cheapen what star status means. If our star definitions are unclear, it's important to keep in mind the essential definition of a star travel guide: that is, it's equivalent or better in quality than top-rank proprietary travel guides. --(WT-en) Evan 10:14, 14 February 2007 (EST)
Support. An excellent article. I don't think that we should set the bar too high for maps - what is important is that they are of high quality and provide all the information you need. I think this particular main map is very good and probably provides more information than would be provided on a homemade png one. The updating of the star criteria to specify png maps is of course open to debate.... -- (WT-en) DanielC 17:12, 14 February 2007 (EST)
Don't Support - and only because of the lack of a WT map... I think Evan said it well above, we're only cheapening Star Status by making these kind of exceptions, and across several recent conversations there seems to be a movement to tighten up the statuses and what they mean a bit... Guide is being applied a little to loosely, guide should be something that is as good as an LP or Let's Go guidebook article... and Star should exceed it, and be perfect in every way - Stars are examples of what a Wikivoyage article can be in all its shining glory, and I don't think that, ultimately, we're aiming towards borrowed maps - yes they'll do for now, but I think only as far as Guide Status (WT-en) - Cacahuate 04:50, 17 February 2007 (EST)
I think I look at the problems everyone is having with this article, beside the map and they are all fixed. I am lost on this whole map issue. Those are the maps the NPS uses and they are accurate.(WT-en) FrankEM
Don't support - Sorry for changing my opinion yet again, but I don't support it simply because it doesn't have a Wikivoyage map. Once s'one makes that, I'll support. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 10:59, 18 February 2007 (EST)
Question - May an article stick around here for slightly longer then the normal 14 days? Seems that there is general consensus that this is star quality except for the maps. The map issue can probably be resolved within a week.
I was thinking the same thing... they often sit around an extra week anyway before somebody notices and does something about it... especially for this case, I would say yes, let's just wait until you finish the map... barring any further objections, I think everything else has been addressed, and when the map goes up you can also slap a {{starpark}} label to the bottom (WT-en) - Cacahuate 12:07, 20 February 2007 (EST)
Support - I have updated Zion with WT maps, just need someone familiar with the place to check if those maps are accurate. Hiking trails still need to be added to the Canyon map, but that will happen soon. --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 16:57, 22 February 2007 (EST)
Excellent, I'm so glad we were able to work this out and not hold back this article solely for the map! And we did the right thing by waiting for the map instead of ignoring for the sake of a new star. I'm gonna gonna promote it now, since all things have been addressed and no further objections were raised. (WT-en) - Cacahuate 17:37, 22 February 2007 (EST)
Possibly the tidiest editing job I have yet seen on Wikivoyage. Every entry is properly formatted, informative, and appropriate, and the sections are all comprehensive without being overkill. The only drawback is sparse imagery, but it does have not one but two maps, and the single photo could easily be moved to the top of the page if necessary. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)
Support. I don't see any obvious room for improvement, with the possible exception of the image issue you've pointed out. Also, way back when I visited while looking at colleges I seem to remember that Stucchi's ice cream was a big deal - is that still operating in Ann Arbor? -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:42, 9 May 2007 (EDT)
A friend who graduated from UM a few years ago confirms that Stucchi's is still a big deal. I'll try to extract data from her. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 21:16, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
Almost support - I've added a few images, but I think it needs more to give a good visual sense of the place. A better opener image would be nice. I sent an email to User:(WT-en) Haem85 to upload the SVG if possible of the map, so that we can make sure everything listed in the article is on the map... and so that future changes can be made. It would also be nice if the listings were templated (are we making this a requirement yet?). I'll continue looking through it more soon, out of time now... but looks pretty darn good... –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 02:24, 10 May 2007 (EDT)
Glad to hear that people are enjoying the article. I've been waiting for warm weather to get here to take some more pictures around town, with a couple of shots in particular in mind, and yes, I'll be glad to upload the SVG when I get a chance. -- (WT-en) Haem85 21:50, 12 May 2007 (EDT)
If you have the time Haem85, can make sure that everything listed in the article is located on the map, since you seem to be really familiar with Ann Arbor? That's the main thing that I think might hold back this article from reaching star status at this point... –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 02:48, 16 May 2007 (EDT)
Everything? Okay, but I'm gonna need a bigger map!;) Actually, given space constraints, I'm not sure it's feasible to include everything (I'd point out that Penticton and Santa Fe don't either) but I can certainly add to it if there's a need. Or, alternatively, redo the map and make it much larger so that I can fit more attractions on. We'll see how much time I have.:) I'd actually like to get up a town-overview map as well, anyway, so maybe I'll make cartography my goal for this weekend. —(WT-en) Haem85 17:29, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
Hehe, well yeah, supposedly all things should be on there. if you're map covers the main parts of the city (I'm not familiar with the town) then it's probably fine... if something is on the outskirts of town I think it's ok not to be on the map. But certainly everything that falls within the boundaries of your map should be noted on it. If that map is just small portion of the town, then yeah, a broader map would be awesome! Glad to have you here now since you're obviously really familiar with the town! –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 20:29, 17 May 2007 (EDT)
Well, it took me long enough, but I've finally uploaded a (much) bigger version of the previous downtown map, with all the attractions in the area marked. If anybody has any tips on how to crop an SVG file in Inkscape, I'm all ears... otherwise I'll just upload my ragged-edged non-cropped version. -- (WT-en) Haem85 18:38, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
I don't think templated listings are a requirement, as long as the content in the templates is there and formatted correctly. Thanks for the images; they meet my semi-objection. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 23:09, 12 May 2007 (EDT)
Given past controversies on Star articles, it would be nice to have more people voting here, I'm not sure we should pass articles through when only 3 people are involved... –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 18:13, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
Support I agree that more images would enhance this. Also agree on the tight editing. Along those lines, what's with omitting "St." for streets? A minor quibble, but seems inconsistent, even with referenced articles for nearby towns. Did we stop including xxxIATA and ICAO:xxxx on airports? </quibbles> (WT-en) OldPine 18:48, 13 May 2007 (EDT)
Support– with the addition of the fabulously updated map by Carson, I think this article is worthy of star status. I would still love to see another image or two that sum up the town added, or that show downtown... something like this perhaps (though I've asked permission for that image and no response yet), but I don't think it's a deal breaker. Now's a good time to dissent, dissenters. We've already been thru the 14 days now, but maybe we should hold off a couple more and solicit more opinions. –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 22:43, 27 May 2007 (EDT)
Don't support (yet). I agree that this is one of our best articles. Other than the following quibbles, I think that this article would make a very good star. Below are the few things I think still need cleaning up. --(WT-en) Evan 10:41, 28 May 2007 (EDT)
Most of the hours in listings don't match the MoS. "Open from 5PM-10PM Monday through Thursday, 5PM-11PM Friday and Saturday, and 4PM-9PM on Sunday." should be "M-Th 5PM-10PM, F-Sa 5PM-11PM, Su 4PM-9PM".
Many of the prices in listings don't match the MoS. "Admission $1" should just be "$1". Comments should be in a "priceextra" field or in parens, italicized, after the price.
The "public sculptures" listing should be broken into separate listings. If it's necessary to bundle them together, they could be in a separate subsection of "See".
The "Lurie Tower" and "Alley mural" listings need to be brought into line with the MoS.
The University of Michigan museums need to be separated into their own listings. Again, if necessary this could be a sub-section of "museums".
I don't think "take a walk through downtown Ann Arbor" is appropriate for "do". Sightseeing should be under "See", shopping should be under "Do".
There are a lot of bookstores listed under buy. Could they be pared down to a more selective list? (Not crucial.)
"Eat" needs more of a general introduction. The "Bagel Fragel" note needs to be in its own listing.
I don't like the "Local Favorites" section. Which locals? Whose favorites? "Lots of locals go here" should be part of the description of each restaurant, not a separate sub-section.
I'm not sure we should bother with a "Stay Safe" section if it's just one sentence. (Not crucial.)
I'm concerned that the "Sleep" section has very sparse information on most of the hotels. (Not crucial.)
Just FYI, I think (!) all these issues have been addressed now (thanks to everyone for your help on this!), except for two: the bookstore list (they're one of Ann Arbor's big "things", so for a variety of reasons I'm reluctant to trim it down, but if it's really unbalanced, I'll grit my teeth and try to decide which ones should go:) ) and the hotel list (I agree that it needs to be beefed up... might be a job for someone with more access to hotel info than I have!). I'm planning a massive photo blitz for this weekend, which will hopefully redress the image imbalance. BTW, am I correct in noticing that the new templates don't actually allow bold/italics/quotation marks inside the listing fields? —(WT-en) Haem85 13:48, 30 May 2007 (EDT)
I think the length of the bookstore list is reasonable for A2. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 17:45, 30 May 2007 (EDT)
Not sure. That's one. big. map.:) (Just go ahead and upload the SVG, untrimmed. Future editors can also crop it when they expert to PNG.) The Eat and Sleep sections aren't broken down by price, but by menu or by location. I understand the reasons for doing them that way, but aren't the price categories part of the MoS? And the Star criteria say that following the MoS is required unless there's an exceptional reason not to. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 11:32, 28 May 2007 (EDT) Support. There's still room for some improvement in a few places (as noted by Evan), but perfection is not a criterion. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 17:52, 30 May 2007 (EDT)
Not until the eat and sleep sections are split into budget, mid range, splurge rather than by geographical or type. For an article to be a star, it's Layout and listing formats either match the manual of style exactly or are the exception that proves the rule. So until that's done, we can't star this. But apart from that, this is star material! -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 17:27, 28 May 2007 (EDT)
Support - my main objection has been rectified. -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 07:23, 5 June 2007 (EDT)
I don't see that necessarily as a disqualification in this particular case, because Ann Arbor isn't really a "big" city, and the template for the "non-big" city doesn't require this breakdown. I agree that the list of eating places is long enough (in no small part because of its college-town status) that the TTCF principle argues for doing it, but if the other issues that people have raised get addressed and this is the only one that remains, I don't see it as a show-stopper. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 18:28, 30 May 2007 (EDT)
Support but that map png is too big—I find it hard to use because it requires so much scrolling. Would it be possible to enlarge the symbols a bit (maybe 2x) and then export a smaller png? --(WT-en) PeterfitzgeraldTalk 18:00, 30 May 2007 (EDT)
Ah! It hadn't hit me that I could decrease the size of the output (duh). I'm not sure if I can increase the size of the symbols (at least, not if there needs to be one for every attraction) but I did reduce the map by 1/3 and I think it helps. Reducing by half seemed a little too hard to read, but I can probably shrink it a little further if it would help. —(WT-en) Haem85 18:43, 30 May 2007 (EDT)
I still think the symbols could be enlarged, even in the crowded downtown area, by 1.5–2 times. That would allow you to decrease the map export size even more. But then again, while this would be optimal, it's not crucial. And I don't know of any good way to increase all the symbols without going through the mind-numbing tedium of going one by one... --(WT-en) PeterfitzgeraldTalk 18:51, 30 May 2007 (EDT)
Well, I'll give it a shot:) I'll try it on the downtown area and see if everything fits. (I just want to be sure there's room in case anything else needs to be added later.) After all, what's a little mind-numbing tedium between friends!;) —(WT-en) Haem85 18:55, 30 May 2007 (EDT)
Another option would be to break the map up into sections, maybe a zoomed-in map of downtown and maybe Kerrytown, and another smaller-scale map showing the outlying listings. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 19:02, 30 May 2007 (EDT)
Bump. This has been under discussion for quite a while, and a great deal of effort has been expended to address the issues raised. Can anyone see reasons now not to star it? If not, I'm going to do so. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 23:44, 9 June 2007 (EDT)
I just finished MoS'ing the hours... but many of the bookstores and a few drink listings still don't have them at all... I've been meaning to call and get them, but never get around to it before closing time. Maybe someone on the east coast can take a few minutes for a few phone calls? –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 04:30, 10 June 2007 (EDT)
As I discovered when Star-ifying Santa Fe, those are two classes of places that may not have fixed hours... -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:01, 10 June 2007 (EDT)
And it was so! Congrats to all those who helped Star-ify this article. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 20:15, 14 June 2007 (EDT)
Some of the other Chicago districts might be on their way to stardom, but I think Bronzeville is already there. I really can't think of anything else that would improve this article, aside from maybe a few new photographs that I'd like to take when back in town (but the ones in the article are more than adequate). I think the article is perfectly formatted according to the MoS and there isn't anything missing that I'm aware of, aside from some run-down establishments that I wouldn't want anyone to visit. But who knows, perhaps the prose is not tight enough. Please let me know what you think! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 21:16, 19 July 2007 (EDT)
Support. Extremely nice article. I didn't see any obvious areas for improvement after glancing over it, although the "Do" and "Buy" sections (and maybe some of the others) might be improved by adding an introductory paragraph that gives a general overview of what the scene is like. Otherwise this looks good, and the map looks particularly great. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 21:32, 19 July 2007 (EDT)
The newly-added intros are great - a quick overview that gives an idea of the highlights. Full support from me. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 22:45, 26 July 2007 (EDT)
Support. Exceptional work on an undeservedly over-looked destination. Remarkably thorough - I'd be very surprised if a better guide to Bronzeville existed in any form. And that map is a stunner. I'd love to see this article supplemented with a walking tour. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 21:44, 19 July 2007 (EDT)
Just a little update, in case other people are watching this discussion and haven't made up their minds: I have added short introductory paragraphs to all sections, but am holding off on a walking itinerary. I haven't walked around the sites myself (I've only visited with a car) and I'm just not sure how long a walk it would be. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 16:21, 26 July 2007 (EDT)
I'd really like to see all of Chicago become a star, not just a few districts of it... (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:34, 26 July 2007 (EDT)
Patience my friend. (WT-en) Marc and I are working hard to make the whole city a star, but in the meantime I could use the positive reinforcement for some of the districts I have slaved over. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:48, 26 July 2007 (EDT)
Support. Excellent article. —(WT-en) Ravikiran 01:12, 27 July 2007 (EDT)
Last call for comments before we star this one - 14 days are up today. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 16:36, 3 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. I just made a pass-through to fix a few remaining typos, and came away impressed by the tremendous work you guys did on this. Make it so! -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 13:26, 4 August 2007 (EDT)
OK, after my 20-odd nit-picking edits today and a thorough map update, I think this article is finally up to star status. Again, there are a few photos I have in mind to add/substitute, but I'll have to wait until I'm back in the area to take them, and the article doesn't need them anyway. For some reason, I'm not quite as satisfied with this district as with Bronzeville—if you figure out why this is, please let me know! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 02:39, 25 July 2007 (EDT)
I'm confused here. We have two districts of Chicago currently nominated for star status, but the article for the city itself is currently only tagged as usable. Looks guide-ish to me, but I don't know the area well enough to judge. Checking three districts at random, I got two guides and one usable. Could we get to the point where we have one big star for the whole city? (WT-en) Pashley 08:32, 25 July 2007 (EDT)
We downgraded the main Chicago article at the outset of dividing the city into districts. I think the content of the article itself is solid (having written a lot of it), but the grading criteria for Huge City articles says that for a Huge City to be a guide, all of its district articles must be at least usable, and for a Huge City to be a star, all of its district articles must be at least guides. So we have one district left to make usable (Chicago/Southwest Side), and then we need to push the rest forward to guide status and do a little more work on the main article before we make it a star (which is our goal). (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 09:47, 25 July 2007 (EDT)
Support. The depth of information is terrific (without being excessive - I like that you pruned a couple of the more mundane listings), and the descriptions give a sense of insight from an insider. The map covers a lot of ground and does so well, another impressive job. I'd like to see a more compelling opening - it's pretty dry until the descriptions of Oakwood and Kenwood in the neighborhoods section. And it's not clear if we can visit any of the listings in Kenwood architecture - I assume not, since you tend to be thorough with these things, but I think it should be explicit. Are there opening/closing hours for Jackson Park and/or the places within, like the Japanese Garden? (Is that free?) Is the University still doing DOC films? As I recall, those are free or cheap, and tend to be great selections. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 10:40, 25 July 2007 (EDT)
Support. Excellent article. Also support the strategy of a huge city achieving stardom district by district. —(WT-en) Ravikiran 01:15, 27 July 2007 (EDT)
Last call for comments...no dissent so far, but it would be good to get more opinions on this one. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 12:22, 7 August 2007 (EDT)
Umm, temporary don't support. I want to address Marc's points before this gets starred, Doc films should really be in there. I will do this today and, provided there aren't any other objections, will drop my own and star the article before the 14 days are up! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:05, 8 August 2007 (EDT)
Ok, this article is ready. Speak now or forever hold your peace, until you feel like revising the status. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 21:04, 8 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. Better late than never. Keep up the good work guys! –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 02:14, 9 August 2007 (EDT)
Ladies and gentlemen, the latest offering from the Chicago district factory, featuring lost treasure, lurid tales, and a shiny new map by Peter. I'm pleased with the way the article covers five of the biggest tourist draws in Chicago (the three museums, Soldier Field, and McCormick Place) and situates them in the midst of neighborhoods with more to be discovered, which print guides haven't done. Although it's always possible that something else may pop up, I believe the Buy/Eat/Drink/Sleep listings are comprehensive, save for places I decided not to list.
Support. It's a fun read and I'm pretty sure nothing worth writing about has been left out. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 02:27, 10 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. Looks fantastic! The only thing I noticed was that the picture of the dolphin show is a little dark, but I don't think that's reason enough to disqualify the article for Star status. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:49, 10 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. Very impressive guide. -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 08:16, 11 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. One suggestion for improvement, however, would be to highlight the neighborhoods on the map - it wasn't clear to me where Printer's Row and the other neighborhoods were located, and since many of the attractions are listed by neighborhood that information would be helpful. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 13:48, 11 August 2007 (EDT)
Good idea; I might try and do this with all the Chicago district maps, come to think of it. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 13:59, 11 August 2007 (EDT)
Marginal. This is a really good article, properly formatted, etc., but one weakness is TMI -- Too Much Information. Some of the attraction entries are ponderously long and really could use some tightening up. I'm not sure whether that's a disqualification as far as Star status is concerned, but I'd like to see some improvements. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 15:15, 11 August 2007 (EDT)
I'm not sure that I see what you mean. The museums listed rank among Chicago's most visited sites, and probably do deserve a significant mention. The Prairie Ave section of town could probably have its own itinerary article, if written by someone particularly knowledgeable; moreover, I think good information about this area is essential, as the only other option for a visitor would be a guided tour. But which entries in particular are you referring to? --Peter 15:25, 11 August 2007 (EDT)
That hadn't occurred to me, but I'm generally willing to believe that anything that's written well can probably be written just as well in 3/4 of the words. I've tried to tighten some of the longer sections. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 16:24, 11 August 2007 (EDT)
An example is the entry for the Marshall Field Jr. Mansion, which occupies an awful lot of space for an attraction that isn't even open. There are others that are similarly verbose. Yes, describe the museums, etc., but for all but the most exceptional/distinctive entries, many of the details of things like history can and should be entrusted to the referenced links, unless there's something about them that the traveler needs to know (for example, IMO the Shedd entry really does need to be as long as you have it, since the whole thing is useful to the traveler). If an entry gets beyond about 5 full lines of text, there's a TMI possibility, IMO; if the entries routinely get beyond this limit, TMI is very likely. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 16:35, 11 August 2007 (EDT)
I've chopped out 2100 characters. I hope that helps. How much history to give, though, is tricky. We supply those external links, but aren't we supposed to be producing guides that can be used independently of them? A little bit of history is sometimes useful to sell the place as a worthwhile destination. (It is to me as a traveler, anyway.) Regardless of WTP, not everyone who uses these guides is going to be able to click through; nor, in some cases (as with Field Jr.), does the external link give the whole story. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 16:58, 11 August 2007 (EDT)
I think for the most part it's ready. It's got a map now, all of the listings follow the MoS, and being someone who lives in ABQ I can assure you that it covers everything. I admit some of the listings still need a bit of work, but they can be taken care of quickly. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 15:51, 19 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. It feels comprehensive and it's well-organized. Great images, too. I would suggest leading with that beautiful balloon photo instead of the bland, slightly-tilted skyline panorama. The 'See' and 'Do' listings could be alphabetized, and it'd be good to have more listings for specific 'Buy' places. (Whereas there are more grocery store listings than you really need.) But none of that gives me any serious reservations. This is a really nice article and one of the best we have to offer. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 09:58, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
I might as well just get rid of that downtown pic. Our skyline isn't really anything to behold, lol. And I organized the See/Do listing alphabetically. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:27, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. Wonderful article and a map so street-filled it would inspire awe and fear in the heart of any would be mapmaker. Practically deserves a "speedy star." My only suggestion is to move the left-aligned images over to the right, as they can cause some strange formatting issues when displayed on different display resolutions—on my screen the "Do" header is floating around the middle of the page. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:57, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
I see what you mean with the "Do" header. What if I just adjust the picture a bit? Does that help? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:28, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
Yes that did help. I still prefer the images on the right because that allows me to skim articles quickly down the left side, but if you prefer to keep them as is, please feel free to do so. Great article! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:01, 21 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. Practically a perfect example of how a large-but-not-huge city should be treated. One minor quibble: the "in-line skating" and "mountain biking" sections under "Do" are curiously wimpy compared to all the good stuff around them. John, you're the local; what do you suggest for these? They're leftovers from a very early version of the article, and IMO could just be deleted unless there's something notable about doing these particular activities in Albuquerque. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 22:44, 25 August 2007 (EDT)
Yeah, there's really nothing notable about either of those activities in ABQ. I guess mountain biking has it's place, but whatever we want to say about bike trails we could just fit into the "By Bike" section of Get Around. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 04:04, 26 August 2007 (EDT)
Okay, I've changed it, I think it looks pretty good now. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:15, 26 August 2007 (EDT)
Probably the most-touristed area of Chicago, particularly for shopping's sake. We have a ton of Buy listings (which weren't easy to come by on my empty wallet and absent fashion sense) and jam-packed Eat sections as well. I work around here, so I walk past many of these places on a fairly regular basis, meaning that I'm confident the listings are reasonably up-to-date. (And I realize I'm jinxing myself by saying so.) If nothing else, check out the gigantic raft of listings that Peter's map has to contend with. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 03:21, 28 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. This was a tough article, but I feel quite confident about it now. Critical feedback is definitely appreciated, though, because this is arguably the most important district article in Chicago—I'd like to see it done perfectly. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 21:42, 28 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. Beautiful article. Great pictures, good listings, great map! (WT-en) PerryPlanet 23:04, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. You fellows did an great job. Wish I could do as well! (WT-en) 2old 10:28, 1 September 2007 (EDT)
Last call for comments. Please chime in if you haven't already. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:50, 10 September 2007 (EDT)
Support. Yep, another beauty from the Star factory twins. MoS looks perfect, pictures complement the article, and you even give advice on free internet at the Apple store... seems you've thought of it all –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 00:25, 11 September 2007 (EDT)
I was not planning to nominate this because I felt too unsure of what travel topic stars are supposed to look like. Indeed, I was more worried that it might get voted for deletion as a non-article. But I figure that as long as we're reviewing travel topic star-ification, we might as well have more fuel for discussion.
This topic is fairly narrow, and while it still might be a stretch to say that this article covers the topic "fully," there are certainly no obvious omissions and any more coverage would be over-saturation. Listings match the MoS, but layout? It is not possible nor desirable to try and come up with a layout in the MoS for every type of travel topic. In any rate, this layout makes sense to me.
I'm curious to see what opinions are on this one; in my view there aren't really any changes that could significantly improve it. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:21, 30 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. In terms of the description of what a star topic should look like, the article appears to cover the topic well enough (although you might need someone with at least some knowledge of Chicago to confirm that though!), the listings match the MoS and the layout used works for this article, which is what matters - travel topics are incredibly diverse so there's no sense in creating a standard layout. The annotated photos of the skyline are the equivalent of the required map. -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 13:05, 31 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. The article seems to do a great job of covering the subject, at least as far as I can tell having never been to Chicago. All the buildings listed appear in at least once of the pictures, so it looks pretty complete. The only thing I can suggest is to find addresses for the Dirksen Federal Building and the Metropolitan Correctional Center. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 16:47, 31 August 2007 (EDT)
Good catch, I've added the addresses. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:26, 31 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. I live in Chicago and know this subject reasonably well — and this article covers the topic better than I know it. Good mix of data and trivia, a great idea well-executed. As the article acknowledges, though, there are a lot of new buildings going up right now — the photos will have to be refreshed every so often. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 19:46, 31 August 2007 (EDT)
Support. Great job. It will benefit any visitor (like me). (WT-en) 2old 10:30, 1 September 2007 (EDT)
I feel like there just aren't enough star districts for Chicago, so here's one more. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 21:08, 18 October 2007 (EDT)
Support, after taking a quick skim, I think it looks great! All the listings look complete, the maps and pictures are good, and there's lots of good info. Though, It does surprise me that there's only two places to sleep in the whole district, but if that is indeed the case then very well. (And no, there's just aren't enough star districts for Chicago.:-) I wouldn't want to see you stop until the whole city is one big, glorious, shining star!) (WT-en) PerryPlanet 13:33, 19 October 2007 (EDT)
Support. Nobody embodies the MoS more than Gorilla Fitzgerald –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 19:00, 19 October 2007 (EDT)
Support. Yup, this is a comprehensive one. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 14:10, 27 October 2007 (EDT)
Any more comments before this one is called? Both of us are grateful for feedback... (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 20:20, 2 November 2007 (EDT)
You'll never guess which city this itinerary covers. This is the most heavily touristed part of the city. The itinerary includes a marvelously detailed street map by Peter, and of the three districts it references (Chicago/Near North, Chicago/Loop, Chicago/Near West Side), one is a Star and two are Guides. What say you? (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 01:50, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
Support. I suppose this superb itinerary (supplied by Marc) will not soon superannuate nor see its supremacy superseded or otherwise become supplanted by superior star-noms. So let us not superimpose superfluous supplications for supplementals, lest they suppress our support of star status for this splendid, superlative piece. I'll stop now. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 03:06, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
Support. I says the same support for said supreme article. Such superlative skyscraping structures! (WT-en) PerryPlanet 13:13, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
Support, but would it have been possible to stop sooner?:-) -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 22:23, 2 November 2007 (EDT)
Support. Well written and sounds like it gives a good quick snapshot of what the city is about... we need more itineraries like this for other cities... and as far as I'm concerned any article that references Adventures in Babysitting is a shoe-in for star status –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 18:18, 3 November 2007 (EDT)
Interestingly enough, there is only one other article to reference this 80's classic, and it is indeed already a star... Conspiracy afoot? --(WT-en) PeterTalk 04:10, 4 November 2007 (EST)
Support. Another fine article by the Dynamic Duo. (WT-en) 2old 15:24, 7 November 2007 (EST)
I feel a little weird nominating this, considering I have never been to the South, much less Charlotte, but I'll go ahead anyway.
A little while ago, the Charlotte article was nominated for Star status, and despite having good info it failed the nomination due to a number of large issues. Recently, I took a look at it and while the overall city article is still suffering from those same issues, a lot of the district articles are in great shape.
So I bring you Uptown Charlotte, a fine article that really only needed some MoS touch-ups and a map to whip it into shape. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 16:22, 3 November 2007 (EDT)
Support. Great article, nice work on bringing it into the MoS mainstream! Our Charlotte guides are really pretty fantastic, and it's nice to see the city moving closer towards stardom. Only one cavil, not big enough to keep me from supporting: I would like to see some more travel-relevant information in the understand section to give travelers a quick overview of what downtown Charlotte offers to the visitor. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 03:56, 4 November 2007 (EST)
Support. Looking good! There's something that bugs me a little about the buy section, but I can't say what I'd do to fix it... hmmm... nonetheless, nice work! –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 02:42, 6 November 2007 (EST)
I agree that the Buy section looks rather confusing. I was a little disoriented by it when I did the map. I've just edited it for a slightly different layout, does this work better? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:37, 6 November 2007 (EST)
Ya know, I'm wondering if the listing of all the businesses in the shopping centers is a bit much... especially with no descriptions... I think definitely McDonald's, Starbucks, etc should go... maybe it would be better in paragraph form listing the special things like Dean & Deluca, rather than look like a mini-yellow pages of the shopping center? –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 00:08, 7 November 2007 (EST)
Almost support, and thanks to Cacahaute for saying what I planned to. I'd drop things like Dunkin' Donuts from the restaurant listing, and try to scrounge up hours for more of the restaurants. I'm concerned that the Buy section is so much lighter than the rest - virtually no phone/hours/address listings, and the descriptions are thin. Overall, though, this is a good, confidently written guide. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 00:43, 7 November 2007 (EST)
I've made some big changes to the Buy and Eat sections, does this work? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 13:39, 7 November 2007 (EST)
Yes, it does. I would also suggest removing the pharmacies, and only list grocery stores if they sell something special (i.e. rare imported food) or are basically the only food option in the area, which obviously isn't the case here. Otherwise, looks good. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:25, 7 November 2007 (EST)
I dunno, why don't we keep the grocery stores and pharmacies? If people are staying in Uptown, they might want to know where these sorts of basic services are. I know I would sure appreciate information about a grocery store. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 23:01, 9 November 2007 (EST)
My experience - and others who know more should disagree - has been that we generally don't list grocery stores unless they provide some unique service that sets them apart from other grocery stores. We provide listings for restaurants because we know this particular restaurant is good, but unless they're also serving take-out lunch, one grocery store's Doritos are as good as the next store's. It keeps Eat listings from getting cluttered and places more focus on the unique places. Travelers looking to stock their hotel room with a trip to the grocery store are on the rare side and don't necessarily need our guidance to do it. But that's just my opinion - it doesn't hold up my vote of Support. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 22:54, 10 November 2007 (EST)
Support When I was driving to the South on a semi-regular basis years ago, Charlotte was my first spot to take a driving break. The article is much better than I remember Charlotte actually being. You may want to consider moving the Speed Street info from Charlotte to Charlotte/Uptown. NASCAR is VERY big in this area and should have more mentions in Wikivoyage, including the United States page. If you just had a photo of the Abe Lincoln statue standing in front of the Statehouse, the article would be complete. I always parked in front of Abe for a short snooze, that's snooze not snort. (WT-en) 2old 15:18, 7 November 2007 (EST)
Might be best to table the O'Hare nomination until those concerns are addressed - so here's another to chew on, as Chicago can't let Charlotte have sole Uptown supremacy. We've got Charlie Chaplin, Al Capone, Hillary Clinton and The Clash in there, which covers rather a lot of ground. Let me know what you think. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 13:44, 1 December 2007 (EST)
Hey, back off Windy City, Uptown belongs to Charlotte, no one else! (LOL, just kidding) I love this article. It's very well written and very thorough, it makes a great read even if you're not traveling to Chicago. I absolutely cracked up when I read this line:
With some effort, you can mentally reverse the decayed grandeur and imagine the station as it was in 1923, when it replaced an inferior structure built by some dink named Frank Lloyd Wright.
Man, I was howling when I read that. Now I did notice a couple of very minor issues...
In the intro there's a minor grammar error: "Years of cheap living created a diverse community that's still resident there today".
There was no hours for the Vinh Phat BBQ, Gigio's, or the Grace African Restaurant.
The Dong Thanh, Thai Pastry and Spacca Napoli weren't listed on the map.
Other than that, it looks perfect. SUPPORT. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 18:43, 1 December 2007 (EST)
Thanks. Grace African Restaurant is quoting our review on their website - that's awesome. I called around to add the missing hours. I don't see the grammar error - 'resident' can be used as an adjective as well, if that's what you're referring to. I'll trust Peter to cram the missing listings into the map. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 19:21, 1 December 2007 (EST)
Support. This is one of my favorite articles now on WT—nice work Marc. I'll be sure to get Spacca Napoli on that map (not sure how missed that), but Dong Thanh and Thai Pastry are both located within the buy listing, Tai Nam Market Center. This is already indicated in the "directions" tags in the listings, but perhaps there is a way to make this more clear? --(WT-en) PeterTalk 11:17, 2 December 2007 (EST)
Nah, don't worry about it. I think if I had actually bothered to read the listing, it would have been clear to me. :P (WT-en) PerryPlanet 12:58, 2 December 2007 (EST)
We don't have any star articles on the West Side of Chicago, only North and South, so I'd like to put this one up for consideration. Pilsen is off the beaten path for most travel guides, but it has an attraction that should be high on any visitors' list (National Museum of Mexican Art), and I think we've covered the art galleries, the shops, and the restaurants quite thoroughly. I had a lot of fun there, although Peter's map will make anyone else's visit a lot easier than mine was. Your comments, please... (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:17, 14 December 2007 (EST)
Another beautiful Chicago article! You guys have raised the bar for what Wikivoyage guides can become. Now just a couple of things (and I was more careful this time around): I didn't see hours for El Paraiso Bakery, and no prices for El Paraiso Bakery, Panaderia Tortilleria Nuevo Leon Bakery, Tacos Palas, and Cafe Mestizo (the last one might not be a problem as it's down in the drink section, but the other two cafes have prices so I guess Cafe Mestizo might as well...). Other than that, this guide is the absolute definition of perfection. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:19, 14 December 2007 (EST)
Support. One of the smaller districts in the Chicago guide, and I think we honestly have everything worth covering in the article! I added pricing info for the above mentioned listings, except for El Paraiso Bakery—I think it's too hard to give an accurate idea of price since there is bound to be large variations in the kinds of things one would buy at a bakery (a cake? one cookie?). Not that this bears on star status, but Pilsen is a cool neighborhood. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:11, 14 December 2007 (EST)
It may be presumptuous to nominate an article having just written it, but hey, I've always wanted to! I think this meets all the criteria, but I would of course welcome criticism. On which note I have to observe, if the saying "everyone's a critic" has any truth, then everyone has been rather quiet lately on this page;) --(WT-en) PeterTalk 05:34, 15 December 2007 (EST)
Support. We just don't have enough star itineraries. And this is one heck of a guide! There is just one, teensy, minor problem: nothing links here. How are people going to find this absolutely magnificent article? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 11:51, 15 December 2007 (EST)
Good point. We'll work mentions into the main Chicago article and the Chicago/Loop article. Support. He's got this topic nailed down, including plenty that I didn't know (for all of the time I spent working down there), and a clear, easy route to enjoy it. I'd suggest Freeform as a lead photo, though, given its acclaimed status within the article and an easier form to grasp (compared to the more jumbled Town-Ho). (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 15:25, 15 December 2007 (EST)
I'm tempted to leave the Town-Ho up at the top, both for egotistical reasons (the photo bears a strong personal touch, whereas I've seen others take a similar photo of Freeform), and because I like the statement it makes to put the most controversial work in the tour at the top. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 03:39, 17 December 2007 (EST)
I believe this long article is completely MoSed, has several nice maps, lots of good pictures, and (IMO) better quality information than any other guide to the city I've seen. That and every district article is at least guide status. If others agree, this will become our second huge city star. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)
Support. By the numbers, Chicago has 22 district/airport articles (seven stars, fifteen guides - not counting the nominations below), 2 itineraries (both stars) and a travel topic (also a star), all of which have maps. The main article itself has a great overview map, district map, and even a crime map. The writing is lively and ties the areas of the city together, it's up to date, and I'm quite proud of the work we've done with it. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:42, 18 February 2008 (EST)
Support. You guys have done an absolutely magnificent job on this city. You've set a new standard for our large cities with thorough listings, great pictures and maps, and engaging writing. I don't think it would be much of an exaggeration to say that this is probably the best guide on Chicago ever written, period. And congratulations on getting it through Wikivoyage Press! You guys have really outdone yourselves and done a great service to both Chicago and Wikivoyage. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 01:42, 19 February 2008 (EST)
Anyone else care to pipe in and just say "support?" This would be only the second huge city star—kind of a big deal by WT standards, I think. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:13, 6 March 2008 (EST)
On a second look at the page, I've noticed that the Get In by train section seems oddly lacking. Not a big enough deal to make me change my vote of support, but I feel like there could be more info there (Addresses? Phone numbers? List of Amtrak routes which serve the station? I dunno...).
That's a fair critique. I'm avoiding listing Amtrak routes, because that would quickly turn into a list of all major US cities save perhaps Las Vegas, oddly. The lack of a Metra System map was actually kind of glaring, in retrospect, but I've put that in now, as well as the main out-of-Chicagoland termini, and phone #s for both companies. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:52, 6 March 2008 (EST)
This is the downtown commercial district and the center of Chicago. For a long time it was a weak link, but it's now well filled out & supported by two walking itineraries. It's also got one of my favorite maps. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)
Support. I spend a fair amount of time here and the article feels comprehensive to me. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:42, 18 February 2008 (EST)
Support. After a very thorough scan of the article, I could only find one teeny, tiny thing: the Russian Tea Time restaurant is not covered in the map. Other than that, flawless. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 01:42, 19 February 2008 (EST)
Whoops—that's a personal favorite of mine too (if the touty description didn't already give that away)! Fixed. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 02:32, 19 February 2008 (EST)
Marc wrote a great article to Chicago's hoppin'est neighborhood. It's a good read, complete, and up to star status. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)
Support. Looks excellent, save for the "Bongo Room" restaurant, which I can't seem to find on the map. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 01:42, 19 February 2008 (EST)
Should be fixed too. Thank you for catching these! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 02:32, 19 February 2008 (EST)
Hmm. It appears we've put a star together for the frat boys. We can at least console ourselves with the knowledge that the article also includes Old Town, anyway. And it is, I think, a great and complete article. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)
Support. I think it does well by visitors with many different interests. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:42, 18 February 2008 (EST)
Support. Looks flawless, not to mention one of the most colorful neighborhoods I have ever heard of. You got the famous shooting of a famous bank robber, and a hot dog joint where the main attraction isn't the food, but profanity. How can you beat this? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 01:42, 19 February 2008 (EST)
I actually forgot about this one, thinking we had already starred it. Unquestionably the best existing guide to this section of the city. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)
Support. I live here and feel there are a lot of unknown gems in this article. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:42, 18 February 2008 (EST)
Support. Can't find any flaws with this one. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 01:42, 19 February 2008 (EST)
It's been a while since we had a star nomination, so here's an article me and User:(WT-en) Asterix worked very hard on to bring up to speed. As far as I can tell, it's nothing short of a perfect district guide. Thorough, complete, informative, and just plain good. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 16:41, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
I'm inclined to Support, as it looks thorough and detailed. There are some minor issues with capitalization - when you use 'the Wharf' to refer to Fisherman's Wharf, do you want to capitalize 'Wharf' or not? That's a style choice and either answer is fine, but it should be consistent. It'd be ideal if there were more Budget Eat/Sleep options, but that may not be possible. I'd suggest spinning out the last paragraph of the Understand section - about the scams - to a 'Stay safe' section at the end of the article. Otherwise, congrats on reaching a milestone with your hard work! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:20, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
Also would Support. Agree on the capitalization and would add "City" as one that might be lowercased, even more so than Wharf. I like the rest of Gorilla's suggestions as well. Nice going, guys. --(WT-en) OldPine 17:30, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
I would say go ahead and capitalize 'Wharf', it seems consistent to me. Unfortunately there just isn't many good Budget Eat/Sleep options in this district, being the tourist haven it is. As for creating a 'Stay Safe' section, that sounds fine. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 17:34, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
Just one thing. Great, comprehensive, and perfectly formatted article. The only real recommendation I have regards the double-listing of the Buena Vista Cafe under eat & drink—I'd prefer that you decide which is the more important recommendation, and then just mention in the description that it also has a nice bar, or is also a worthy dining destination (ditto The Cannery & Pier 39). You can also use section intros to mention, say, in the drink section that such and such eat listing also has a great bar. The main thing, I think, should be to avoid content duplication, which looks sloppy compared to the perfectly polished shine the article otherwise shows. That's the only thing holding up my support.
Aside from that, a couple of cavils: First, you guys used an "average price" for the hotel rooms—what sort of average is that? Median/mode/mean? And of what, double rooms or all rooms? Personally, I tried to get around that ambiguity by listing price ranges. Second, you listed Ghirardelli Square under buy in the article, but under see on the map. Third (and most trivial), while it's not a policy, there is a vague Wikivoyage preference for the serial comma, which I believe you eschewed. In any rate, fantastic work, and I hope to see more SF articles popping up on this page in the future! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 01:17, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
Wow, how did I miss the Buena Vista Cafe? Well, I'll take it out of the Drink section, since on the map its listed as a Eat place.
Good point on the "average prices", I'll go ahead and find price ranges for them. As for listing Ghirardelli Square as a See on the map, it's because in the article it's also listed as a See (it's at the very bottom of the section) as well as a Buy. This kind of comes back to the issue of duplicate listings, of course Pier 39 and The Cannery do the exact same thing.
I didn't know there was a preference for serial commas (which makes me regret all the times I eliminated them...), so I'll go ahead and put them in. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 02:16, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
Okay, so the duplicate listings issue is taken care of, with the exception of the tiny issue of Pier 39 being a See and Do listing, but I'm not sure I want to mess with it seeing as they have separate content underneath the listing, which actually fits the section they're in. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 03:03, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
Looks great! I'd still prefer not to see the Pier 39 info duplicated word for word like that (it clashes with my parsimony devotion)—you could get around this by creating a section header for Pier 39-located listings, an introductory note for the "buy" section, or scratch the contact details & description for the second instance & replace them with an in-article link to the see section (i.e., ([[#see|see above]])). But it's not so big a deal since "see" & "do" listings all wind up under the same list on the map key. Anyway, you've done more than enough to make me content. Support. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 03:10, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
Nevertheless, I'll take you up on your suggestion to eliminate the details from any second listings. I've fixed the Do version of Pier 39 with a simple "content under See section" kind of message, and now there's no duplicates no duplicates no duplicates. :P (WT-en) PerryPlanet 03:50, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
Support. Looks nice guys, good work! A question... what is meant by "Pier 39 is an accessible facility? Handicap accessible? Also in the Contact section the prices using the hyphen to separate the price and time allotted, to me, looks almost like a price range... minor quibble... but maybe "$3 for 20 min" is less confusing at first glance? Anyway, good work! –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 12:02, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
Good catches. I don't know what is meant by "Pier 39 is an accessible facility" either (probably means it's handicap accessible, but then again so is everything else in Fisherman's Wharf), so I'll just eliminate that sentence. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:38, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
We're almost at the end of the fourteen days, is there anything else anyone wants to add here? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:43, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
Support. It's a really well done guide. There are still a few listings in the Buy and Drink sections which are lacking hours, and we'll need those to make the article perfect, but that shouldn't be too hard to get. As far as I can tell, this guide has extensive listings (as it should, considering where we're talking about!), good descriptions, and a lot of great information. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 22:15, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
Am I seriously the only person who's commented on this? Surely someone else has something to say? At least a word of "Support"? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:05, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
Hey, we've got 14 days right? I haven't forgotten—just haven't had time to give it a good look yet;) --(WT-en) PeterTalk 23:37, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
One objection— listings are not in order!
The default/most common order is alphabetical, and that's what I'd recommend. I'm pretty sure the only other acceptable order is geographical, like the sights in San Francisco/Fisherman's Wharf, although that is usually not possible. That's the only objection I have large enough to hold up star status. But yeah, the article is fantastic (and huge), and I've got a hunch this is where I'll head first next time I'm in San Francisco. Just reading this made me so hungry I had to drive over to Chicago's Chinatown for food before making my edits.
Actually, this was deliberate, and I spent a bit of time making sure the listings roughly ran from a south (chinatown) to north (north Beach) direction. I also listed the reason why in the article under "Get Around"...There are many more parks, public seating, and cafes with curbside tables in North Beach, so why not see Chinatown first. That way, by the time you'd made it through its bustling streets you'll be ready for a coffee and a sit down in North Beach. So in actuality it's in geographical order. Is this ok? (WT-en) Asterix 13:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
Ah, ok, so long as there is an order to it, I'll support. I do recommend adding a quick note in italics (probably at the top of the "see" section), explaining that the listings are in rough order from south to north. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 23:43, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
Other less crucial things:
1) The article currently uses multiple formats to convey when a listing is closed for a specific day of the week (e.g., "closed on Mondays"). I'd recommend leaving such info out completely, since it should be obvious that any day not mentioned could then be assumed closed. (E.g., T-Th 5AM-10PM, F-Sa 5AM-midnight, Su 10AM-10PM.) But if you prefer to leave those references to closed days, that should be done in a standard fashion throughout the article.
2)Did Kerouac stay here? With his friend or in a flophouse? If so, it would be great to call out the building or at least the street where he was living. On that note, perhaps it would be worth doing to list at least one of the SRO flophouses under "sleep," since someone visiting after reading On the Road might be curious to spend a week in one.
As regards Kerouac - Not sure he stayed in an SRO in which case I wonder is it worth adding one? I know that he lived at 29 Russell st...but that's actually in Nob Hill area. I did add the places where he drank (Trieste + Vesuvios) and hungout (Kerouac Alley + City Lights)..not sure where else stayed and specifically at an SRO??...I'll have to look this one up. I thought I had one SRO in here but now I see it was in Civic Center. Perhaps it is worth adding one as you say.(WT-en) Asterix 13:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
Great, given how expensive San Francisco can be, I'd gladly slum it in a transient hotel for $160/week in a cool neighborhood. I've added it to the map. Also, a link to Kerouac's place in Nob Hill might be good for a "get out" section. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 23:43, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
3) The article's dashes are not standardized, using both hyphens surrounded by spaces and double hyphens to indicate breaks in thought. In my opinion, only mdashes (—) should ever be used for this purpose, whether you surround them with spaces ( — ) or not. If you'd like me to, I'm happy to quickly replace all the article's "breaks in thought" dash muddling with mdashes, and can do so in a jiffy—let me know. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 18:51, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
Please - knock yourself out. I'm happy to accept the help. To be honest it took so long writing this article that I missed some of the smaller things. Thanks for the critique. (WT-en) Asterix 13:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
As per the last nomination of San Francisco/Chinatown-North Beach, the next biggest contributor was an anon IP. Thanks to he/she for adding some great listings under the Tenderloin budget options and for the breakdown of the ethnic communities there.
I know that it is missing about 3 check in/out times for hotels...I'll get them over the 2 weeks. I also have to re-check the map I edited as it was my first time. (WT-en) Asterix 19:56, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
Looks good! It's also great for Wikivoyage to have such an awesome guide on a neighborhood most guidebooks will tell you to avoid. Some small quibbles: prices are needed for the Linc Art Gallery, San Francisco Arts Commission Gallery, San Francisco Ballet, LGBT Pride Celebration, Kyoto Sushi, and La Quinta Inn and Suites Downtown. Hours are needed for Karma Culture and Starbucks, and check-in/check-out times would be good for the Civic Center Hotel and the La Quinta Inn and Suites Downtown. Other than that, I couldn't find anything missing. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:27, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
From a very casual glance, it looks fantastic. Unfortunately, I'm really busy right now and can't give a detailed critique until the weekend. Would you mind please keeping this starnom open until then, past the 14 days length? --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:55, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
Not a problem...appreciate you taking the time to read it. (WT-en) Asterix 16:23, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
Sorry for the delays. First, support— it's a fantastic article, and it's a joy to watch the quality of the travel writing develop with each star nom (I probably doubled my ability during my work on Chicago!). Regardless of the support, I like feedback, so I'll do unto others:
1) I'd like to see less stay safe info in the intro—I think that section should just be a brief explanation of why someone should visit. A blurb about crime in Tenderloin (what a name!) and maybe a pointer to the stay safe section in the understand section should be sufficient IMO.
2) We decided, I think, to use St instead of Street for all street names throughout articles about American destinations. I already converted all instances in this article (easy to do via notepad's find/replace-all option).
3) There's a ton of writing about street boundaries of "Loin hoods" (wanted to say that). I think it would be really worthwhile to show this on the map instead via color regions. If you're looking for a model, check this map. If you need any help with that, let me know.
4) Hours are missing for buildings in the architecture section. I tend to travel late in the day, and hate when I miss beautiful interiors because they closed at 4PM or something like that.
5) I'm confused -- gay pride day is when? the second day of SF Pride?
6) Karma Culture needs hours.
7) I thought that the "drink" section for Tenderloin didn't quite seem to live up to the introduction (which definitely made me interested in hanging out there). Would it be possible to toss in a few more interesting dives, gay bars, and dance clubs?
9) You also might want to tout that lively gallery scene in the understand section a bit more.
Lastly, so I don't forget when I next visit—top on my list after reading: Original Joe's, and I'd definitely like to be a tourist who visits laundromats for ice cream and wifi;) --(WT-en) PeterTalk 18:24, 18 August 2008 (EDT)
Again, thanks for the detailed critique, it definitely makes the article stronger. Sometimes after working on one for a while, it becomes difficult to see the wood from the trees, so it's good to get an objective opinion. I've fixed most of your points so far — the rest I'll do in due course. (WT-en) Asterix 14:21, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
Hi, I'd like to nominate this district article. I know it's pretty big (hopefully not too big), but it is probably the largest district in SF in terms of see and do stuff etc. All comments r welcome. (WT-en) Asterix 14:07, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
Support. Sorry it's taken me so long to get around to going through this excellent article. I loved this part of SF, with its gorgeous buildings and everyone's favorite bridge (right?). Anyway, in general it looks very good. Some quick thoughts:
Should there be a "By bike" bit in the Get in section of this article? I know that generally the hills make biking hard in SF, but there were a LOT of bicyclists riding along the Bay and across the Bridge when I went there. Perhaps we should throw that in.
The price for the African American Historical and Cultural Society says "Free — on the first Wednesday of every month." Does that mean it's not free the rest of the time? If so, we need some prices.
Inspiration Point isn't marked in the map.
We could use prices for the Blue Bear Performance Hall.
We need hours for House of Magic and Safeway under Buy.
Check-in/check-out times needed for Presidio Inn & Suites.
Other than that, awesome. Awesome writing, awesome pictures, awesome place, just awesome. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:33, 30 August 2008 (EDT)
This article is the most developed article in the Caucus region and is quite through in its detail of sights, places to stay, and even some cultural insight to the city.
Support. I've already critiqued this article on the article talk page and had my concerns addressed—I think it's ready for a star. I'd be happy to hear other critiques though, if they are forthcoming! If this one makes it, we'll get to add a new section to the Project:Star articles page for the Caucasus! Anyway, User:(WT-en) Cupcakecommander has done some terrific work with this one, making a truly complete guide to a city for which no other real guides exist, and which is a lovely travel destination—easily one of my favorites in Eastern Europe. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 10:12, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
Almost Support - There is only one thing I think should still be fixed. Prices below 1 AZN is given both with (0.5 AZN) and without (.5 AZN) the leading 0. For uniformity and to ensure that one does not accidentally read 5 AZN for .5 AZN, I would suggest that they all be change to include the leading 0. --(WT-en) Nick 13:45, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
Almost support. Wow, what an interesting place! If this becomes a star it'll be fantastic, as we don't have any from this region of the world. After a long scan though, I found some nitpicky issues I thought should be addressed:
Most of the listings that have hours lack days. For instance, is this place open daily, or just a few days of the week?
The Handicrafts under Buy is not marked on the map.
There's an infobox for Eliehmed Confectioneries, but should it just be its own listing? And if so, it should be marked on the map if possible.
There's two eat listings marked on the map which have no mention in the article, as far as I could tell: Milli Yemeklar and the Turkish Bakery.
The Kerpish Restaurant, Laziz Restaurant, Cold Spring/Soyuk Bulagh Restaurant, and Sheki Saray Hotel Restaurant lack prices.
One of the hotels is spelled Shail Pansinot in the article, but Sahil Pansinot on the map.
Finally, none of the hotels have check-in/check-out times. But then again, I don't know if its customary for hotels to have that in this part of the world. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:11, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
...am PerryPlanet, I'm pretty sure postings are supposed to go in sequential order??? (WT-en) Asterix 15:43, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
You'd think they would, but when I was editing the page the only edit conflict I had was with Peter's reply to the guy above me. I didn't even see yours until I was finished editing the page. Don't ask me... (WT-en) PerryPlanet 19:14, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
You're right, there are definitely a few map updates missing—thanks for catching these! I'll try and get a hold of Josh to help me locate the confectioneries listing on the map. I think I stayed at one place in the Caucasus that had a check-out time, but didn't encounter any here. Anyway, we haven't been including that in the criteria for star articles, and I'm not sure I'd want to change that. When you call the hotel or arrive there, they'll tell you themselves! And I agree that the confectioneries should be listingified, but I'll need Josh to do that, since I don't have an address. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:04, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
Some Objections: I like this article, it seems like a really simple and quaint place. Overall I think it’s great, I like the abundance of pictures which really compliment the text. Mostly just some MoS issues for me…
Listings are not in alphabetical order.
Not all the listings are on the map
It would be nice I think to get more specific with some listings, like in the “Drink Section”… to give the names and addresses of specific cafes etc.
Throughout the article it uses the 24 hour clock, which I prefer, but is this standard on WT? Also, it lists 10:00 instead of 10 etc.
How much is entry to the Drama Theater? Also, how much do the guided tours cost?
It would nice to have hours in the “Buy” section, even for the Bazaars.
In “Eat” section, average prices or price ranges for regional specialties would be good and there are some prices missing for a few restaurants there.
I notice that some of the phone/fax numbers are missing the ‘994’ prefix...I think I saw 944 in there as well. Also lengths of phone no's differs somewhat...might want to check that.
Is there anything else that could be added to the “Cope” section…like publications etc?
As per verbage in the “Contact” section, it would be nice to more than one post office marked on the map.
Caravansarai is mentioned in “See” and “Sleep” which eschews the “no duplications rule." Also their phone no’s are different?
I don’t know does it apply as much here, but any info on check in and out times in “Sleep?”
I don’t think that all of the sections need introductions but perhaps it would help to add a few? For example, imo “Eat” could use one, as could “Sleep” and “See”
Not sure about touting the bottled water as ”healthy” so much especially with environmental concerns about bottling water etc
Abbreviations for address needed…St not Street etc.
’T’ used instead of ‘Tu’ per time and date format.
Sorry about the long list; most of them would probably not stop it becoming a star but I think that some would. If I catch anything else later I’ll let you know. Well done on a great job. (WT-en) Asterix 14:01, 10 September 2008 (EDT)
I talked with Josh about the teahouses quite a bit, and our agreement eventually was that there are no real differences between the teahouses (same tea, same men milling about), they have no phone numbers to call, and they're all over the place—they'd be hard not to find. So we decided to leave individual listings for them out of the article. If someone is looking for one, they'd probably only have to walk a few steps, but they could also check the map for the ones located close to tourist areas.
We're still sort of debating whether to use the 24 hour clock for destinations that use it (that is, all posted schedules in Azerbaijan are in the 24 hour format), but I don't think that should hold up a star nomination anyway--as long as the article is internally consistent.
For the drama theater & guided tour prices, my guess is that they vary wildly, but I'll try and get Josh to comment on that.
Regarding the Caravansarai, I'm not sure that there is a better way to display the information. It's the second biggest attraction in the city, but is also perhaps the best hotel option as well. I've taken out the (incorrect) contact information in the see entry and linked directly to the sleep entry, where you can find the contact info. Hopefully that will resolve this problem, as well as it can be.
And regarding the bottled water, the natural mineral waters in these parts are supposed to have all sorts of health benefits, and are safe from parasites, so I think that's what that is referring to.
I'll make sure to get all the map issues fixed too. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:49, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
Support Though i agree with the above comment, that listing should be on the map of possible (WT-en) Sertmann 13:23, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
Almost support. I think it looks pretty good and pretty darn close... once all the above concerns are addressed, I'll support. Definitely hours should be formatted correctly, and also phone #'s should all start with +994 –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk
I'm still working on some of the above concerns, but wanted to document that I've taken care of both the hours and phone numbers. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 23:11, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
Just wanted to jump in and let any potential slushers know not to slush this discussion. Hopefully I'll get some help from User:(WT-en) Cupcakecommander, but I'm committed to getting the above issues resolved and getting a nice star on this Caucasian article. Just a matter of time. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 01:17, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
OK, I think I've done all that I'm inclined to do. I've stricken the objections/suggestions that have been taken care of. The ones that remain, I've tried to address in that longer comment just above. What's the process for making this a star now? Nick and Asterix have both stopped contributing here, so they won't be able to reverse their earlier positions... --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:30, 11 November 2008 (EST)
It's looking much better now...I'm rather confused about the Handicrafts listing though. It looks like it's labeled "Handicapped Association" on the map, but then under the Shebeke listing, you have the "Handicraft Association headquarters at 85 Vidadi St", which is different than the "18 A. Cabrayilov St" given under the Handicrafts listing. So I'm definitely rather bewildered on that one. But other than that it looks fine. I fully Support now. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 00:26, 12 November 2008 (EST)
If someone is not checking regularly, I think it's unfair for a potential star, to drop into oblivion, just because of this. And besides they would have ample time to object by now - so I think the nomination should carry on regardless of these users opinions. And I of course still Support. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 19:36, 15 November 2008 (EST)
OK, I'm going to give this another week (so 2 weeks from my final fixes), before declaring it our first ever FSU star! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:06, 18 November 2008 (EST)
It's been a while since we've had a star nom, so I figured I'd nominate one of the most benighted and impoverished slices of the U.S. I've held off on nominating this one simply because it is such an unconventional travel destination, but I do believe it's formatted to a tee, an enjoyable read, and probably the best extant guide to Anacostia anywhere (there aren't many!). Lastly, I promise I'll get in some D.C. star noms in the future that aren't quite so intimidating to most visitors. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 19:15, 19 April 2009 (EDT)
And note: the listings are few, but this is complete. I know this area well, and I really don't think there is anything else worth including—there are precious few business establishments here, despite it being such a large swathe of land right in the center of one of the nation's largest metro areas. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 19:19, 19 April 2009 (EDT)
Support. After a scan of the article, it seems to read well and I can't find sufficient enough reason to oppose it. However, the way everything on the map is tilted makes it rather aggravating to read. I don't mind the map itself being tilted (north doesn't always have to be up), it's all the icons being tilted that gets me, along with some of the street names ("Branch Ave" is practically upside down). Also, hours for the rest of the Eat/Drink listings might be good. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 00:06, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
Ah, whoa, I forgot about those eat/drink hours! I'll be sure to call tomorrow and see if I can't get the businesses in question to tell me when they're open (this will actually be hard in Anacostia...). And regarding the map, I rotated the icons to match the street layout, in order to make it easier to distinguish which street the icons are located (especially at corners). If it's bothering people, I'm sure I could move them back to 90 degrees. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 00:37, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
I personally didn't even notice the icons, but rather the park names. I can't think of any reason for those to be tilted. And Branch Ave does look a little odd upside down. =) (WT-en) LtPowers 08:23, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
I've finished tracking down those last listing hours (as I expected, it was like pulling teeth). --(WT-en) PeterTalk 21:06, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
Support. But (without having seen the alternative) I think I support moving things back to 90 degrees. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 10:03, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
I remember now why I kept all the icons/park text/etc. tilted with the compass—I did it with printed use in mind. If someone prints out the article, they can just tilt it so that north is at 90 degrees, making the whole map a lot easier to use. I'll create an extra layer for an export in the fashion people are requesting, and make the decision once we can see them side-by-side. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 16:46, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
OK, here are the two map versions, one with text & icons tilted north, the other with them rotated to display online at 90 degrees. I still prefer the former for two reasons: 1) it makes more sense for offline use, since you can just rotate the printed page (or iphone or whatever), and I always print WT maps before using them anyway; 2) forcing viewers to tilt their heads is not necessarily a bad thing—it can otherwise be easy to miss the fact that the whole map is indeed rotated 45 degrees off compass north. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:39, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
Support. Looks really good. Re the map, I do think that maps should pretty much always be oriented for north... I see that it's funny shape/orientation is probably why you did it the way you did, and in that case I like the tilted text so you can rotate as you mentioned.... I would definitely be holding it for north were I using it to travel and would appreciate the thought behind that:) –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 02:24, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
So you guys would rotate the map back and forth when trying to correlate the legend with an item on the map? It strikes me as odd, but I don't have the real-world experience you guys do. (WT-en) LtPowers 08:03, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
Yeah, I'd have to go with Lt on this. I think the map with the "corrected" icons just reads a whole lot easier, especially when you take the legend into account. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 12:15, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
Yes, the legend is the part for which I would tilt my head;) I have something of an internal compass, so reading the map as it is in the second version is more comfortable, but also more confusing. I'm still not sure which way to go with this, since there is disagreement—hopefully there will be more comments. If we decide to go for the second version, I would be inclined to keep the former updated as well (which is easy given how few travel icons the map requires), and link to it from the second's image file as an offline printing option. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:29, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
Or link from the image text "click here for a North oriented map better suited for printing" or something like that... --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 14:57, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
@LtP: I wasn't thinking so much about the back and forth when looking for legend items.... I more have an overall dislike of maps that aren't oriented for north.... so yes, I would hold the map so that north is facing up, and read it that way. But I'm definitely not trying to stir up a big debate, the article could go forth with either version and be just fine –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 21:39, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
Might as well clarify the reasons why I tilted the map to begin with: 1) To keep the map aligned north would entail an image covering much more territory, and consequently the icons and text would be much smaller relative to the image, and hence a lot harder to read. 2) the problems of #1 are relevant both online and offline—the rectangular format makes for easy high-res printing on standard 8x11" sheets of paper. 3) A more square image (necessitated by a northern alignment) would show a lot of blank space, particularly on the MD side (and there's nothing important to add there—the main roads are already in—it would just look unattractive). --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:24, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
Just to clarify, the decision of which map is used has virtually no impact on whether I support promotion to star, I do in either case. However, I still stubbornly cling to my belief that map #2 is easier to read.;) I like the idea of linking to the more printable version from the "online version"; in fact I'll likely be doing just that with a whole bunch of maps if I can make a Wikivoyage Press book out of the San Francisco articles. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 00:00, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
Support. Overall, excellent article. Actually, I think excellent is an understatement. Great work, Peter. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 16:45, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
Support. The coverage and maps are definitely star-worthy, and I love that some of Wikivoyage's best articles are places that other publications only skim (if at all). My only issue is that the introduction is rather dry — I'd like to see at least one sentence or phrase in there with a kick, something with a note of excitement about the place. It's not until halfway through the third paragraph of the article that you begin to make any kind of case for visiting there. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 22:57, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
I gave a go at tightening and enlivening the introduction. I also added a "Words of Wisdom with Mayor Marion Barry" infobox, words of a man who never faltered in the cause of enlivening everything he touched. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 01:07, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
As promised, more D.C. nominations. This is a section of town that I know pretty much in and out (although I can't totally vouch for the womens' shopping listings, of course...), and to my eyes it's complete. It's also formatted properly, unless I missed something, and hopefully my prose is up to snuff. This is my favorite part of the city, so it would bring me a smile to put a star on top. Thoughts? --(WT-en) PeterTalk 16:50, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
Support. Looks good! There are a few listings missing hours (Blink Optical and Circle Boutique under Buy and Ben's Chili Bowl under Eat) and an Eat listing missing prices (Negril), but other than that it seems great. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 19:24, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
Support. The only questions I'm left with is if the exhibitions inside the Thurgood Marshall Center and Black Fashion Museum are free, not that this nitpicking should prevent a star nomination from going through (that, and hmmmm, more alarming I noticed the IsIn tag isn't working on Washington, D.C. - lemme see if I can fix that) --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 20:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)
Yeah, no one understands what's up with the D.C. breadcrumbs. I finally got responses from the TMC and BFM—the former is indeed free, and the latter closed last year. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 16:20, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
Support. The photos in this article are superb — I can't think of an article on WT with better. And the depth of coverage is fantastic. Should it say that Thurgood Marshall wrote his opinion at the Y, or did he just think up what he was going to write while he was there (and do the actual writing somewhere else)? Also, there's some creeping confusion between "the district" as a term for D.C. and "the district" as a term for this district of the city. I'd prefer italics for the non-English words in the 'Eat' section, but that's just a personal preference. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:12, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
Hey thanks for the photo compliments! My camera is pretty low-grade, but that crisp March sky couldn't have been better. I went through and got rid of all ambiguous references to "the district" (I sort of figured this would become a problem). Re: Thurgood Marshall, to my knowledge, the idea that he actually penned the opinion there is an unconfirmed rumor. What is clear, though, is that that's where he met with other prominent members of the African-American bar to prepare the opinion. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 00:42, 22 April 2009 (EDT)
Let the torrent follow the drought. This is actually a new Chicago district, following a reshuffle of the hierarchy, and I'm pretty sure it's up to star standards. The formatting should be correct, it lists just about everything of note—the cream of the crop anyway, and I don't know if I could bear the sight of a South Side district without a star on top. My Chicago love is such that I can't pick a favorite neighborhood, but man the BBQ is good down here! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 03:25, 23 April 2009 (EDT)
Support wholeheartedly. Another mind-blowing Chicago guide, Peter! Anywho, on to the nitpicking: I see there's no prices for Dat Donuts; I'm not sure if that was intentional, since it's a donut shop, but it might be good to know how much one of their fabulous donuts will cost. There's also no hours for the Club Escape. Other than that, looks awesome, what with all the BBQ, Blues, and Blues Brothers. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 13:09, 23 April 2009 (EDT)
I can't believe I forgot the donut prices! That was my regular 4AM haunt for a long while (tryin' to cut back on the donuts lately). Anyway, fixed, and thanks once again for catching these missed details. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 13:43, 23 April 2009 (EDT)
Support. I'm biased, obviously, but it consistently blows my mind how a skinny white kid is the foremost authority on Chicago's fried chicken, BBQ, and soul food establishments. But he is! There's a best-selling diet book in there somewhere. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:57, 29 April 2009 (EDT)
And another D.C. district article nomination. This, after the Mall, is probably the most touristed section of the city, so it's a useful one to have at high quality. I lived here for a good while, so I think the recommendations should pretty much all be spot on, but I have had to check my tendency towards derision in this article—hopefully my efforts to tone that down have been successful! Everything should be properly formatted, as I checked over this one more carefully than the other nominations, I think. Filling out those shopping listings was extremely painful, so I want a star in return. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 19:16, 28 April 2009 (EDT)
Support. Looks good! Really thorough, excellent guide. But now for the nitpicky stuff: It might be nice to have some contact info for the C&O Canal and the GU Library, like a phone number or something. There seems to be a lot of listings missing hours: Georgetown Tobacco, Peacock Cafe, Citronelle, Sequoia, Blue Gin, J Paul's, The Tombs, and Degrees. Also, there are a few places from Buy that are not on the map. I'm not worried about the chain places, I'm talking about the listings: Sugar, MOCA DC, and Parish Gallery. Also, shouldn't The Shops at Georgetown park be on the map? I've never been to D.C., so maybe it's really easy to find, but I can't see it on the map. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 20:08, 29 April 2009 (EDT)
Wow, the hours were all over the place—I'm a little amazed that I missed that, and I think you were being overly generous in supporting the article in that condition! But all your points have now been addressed. MOCA & Parish were left off deliberately, as they are included in the "Canal Square Galleries," but, of course, I had forgotten to mention that in the listings... Again, a very big thanks for catching these details; it's extremely helpful, and I'll make sure to return the favor on any of your future nominations. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 00:53, 30 April 2009 (EDT)
Ah, I knew you would fix up these little details in an instant. Why put down a vote of "near support" when I knew I'd have to change it so soon?;) (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 11:43, 30 April 2009 (EDT)
Support A lot to read through, but I can't find any issues, and I'm really impressed with the Buy section. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 09:54, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
Support. Great article! I loved the Dumbarton Oaks and Exorcist Steps descriptions, although the article is rich with enjoyable asides throughout. You might indicate somewhere that the Hoyas are the university mascot (outside of that one 'Buy' listing), since people will hear a lot about them. And the Georgetown basketball team probably deserves a 'Do' mention, since they've produced some of the USA's best basketball players over the last couple of decades. You noted your concern about the photos on Talk:Washington,_D.C./Georgetown, but they're not bad — illustrative of the area, if not as artful as the photos in Washington, D.C./Shaw. As a formatting note, I prefer using foreign words in italics, but I don't think there's a WT policy on the issue, so that's just personal preference. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 01:04, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
Good point on the GW basketball—I've added an infobox to take care of that. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 05:24, 20 May 2009 (EDT)
Inspired by Marc's comment that some of our best guides are for places barely mentioned in regular guide books, I thought I'd give this nomination a go - aside from a short section on Dragør, LP doesn't have a single listing from this district in their guidebook. It suffers a little from being a really huge district (100km2/60mi2), but I don't think braking it up would work well, and 10 districts in a city of one million is already stretching it. My only major concern is the prose, so I would appreciate if you guys would go a bit deeper than skimming, and fix up the language where it's lagging. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 09:54, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
Almost support. I fixed up a lot of the grammar, although I might have missed some, but I think I got it all. Anyway, it's a great guide, but it's feeling a little lacking. The tiny intro to the article and the lack of a lead picture are particularly glaring, and there's no intros to the Eat and Drink sections. There's also some problems with the map - the main one is that it's too small. Even when I zoom in, I can barely read it. Also, none of the Contact listings are on the map. However, I think all these problems can be fixed up pretty quickly. To your immense credit, I don't see any obvious lackings of hours, phone numbers, or any of those little but crucial details in the listings, so you've one-upped Peter there.;) (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 12:58, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
Hmmm, the intro was not that much smaller than say Anacostia's, but I tried expanding it a bit - though it feels like repeating he understand section a bit. Lead picture, yup, need to come up with something there. Wrote up a small intro in eat, and shuffled the intro to the drink section above the subheader. Contact listings were updated on the map, right before the nomination - you might want to refresh or something? As to the size of the map, I'm a bit at loss at what to do - should I just make a bigger svg export say 2000 pixel tall instead of the current 1200? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 16:50, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
Yeah, but Anacostia's intro was criticized too.;) Anywho, I see the Contact listings on the map now (huh, could've sworn they weren't there before). Making the map bigger isn't that hard - you can just select everything, hit Ctrl+Shift+M, click scale, enter a number (say "25", that'll probably do it) in both boxes and that'll enlarge it for you. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 18:49, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
My bad, what I meant to ask was if increasing the size would be sufficient, or do I need to rework the map completely? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 19:41, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
I think increasing the size of the map should be fine. It's a good map, it just needs to be a little bigger. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 20:05, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
Agreed. Just increase the resolution, so it can be printed -- Wikivoyage Press recommends 1709x3008. (You can shave off the green park bits to the west so make it fit this ratio.) (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:08, 3 May 2009 (EDT)
Looks good! I support now (although I would still like to see that lead pic, but that's not a crucial point). (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 13:18, 4 May 2009 (EDT)
Support. Shit island populated by Amaricans, eh? I hope this isn't some elaborate international put down. Great article, and I have trouble finding anything to cavil about. One that stands out is the description for Madeleines Madteater—I have no idea what it is, what it serves, why it's so unique, etc. I made a few minor corrections to fit publishing standards I'm familiar with, like using mdashes instead of hyphens for parenthetical usage, and spelling out numbers zero–twenty. This could be an undesirable Americanization, though—if it is, please revert. The last improvements I'm left wanting is to see the sleep section ordered by price—with nine, I think there are enough listings for this to be useful; and for a short intro in the Contact section (or short descriptions) explaining what the listings are for (do they all offer internet access?). --(WT-en) PeterTalk 08:12, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
Support. Great article. Agree with Peter, the sleep section could be ordered by price. (WT-en) ViMy 19:36, 16 May 2009 (EDT)
OK, so I sorted the sleep listings by price, and no - I'm not masterminding an anti American conspiracy - at least not in this regard:) As for Madeleines' they prepare and serve the food as a theatrical performance (there is a photograph and a more comprehensive description in English here) - but isn't that what the listing is already saying? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 12:38, 19 May 2009 (EDT)
The listing says "staging the food as a theatre of sorts", which to me means they set the food up to resemble a small theater stage with curtains made out of lettuce and, I don't know, use puppets on it or something. Just a wording tweak should fix that up. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:21, 19 May 2009 (EDT)
Hmm, I tried to rephrase it a bit, but I think it may just be a concept around which minds wrap with difficulty. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:09, 19 May 2009 (EDT)
Three weeks is up, last call for comments before putting a shiny star at the top of this one! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:04, 24 May 2009 (EDT)
Support. I love the neon monstrosity infobox! Just one quibble: pick a lead image for the article. There are worthy candidates in the body (excepting, of course, the aforementioned monstrosity). (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:52, 24 May 2009 (EDT)
Anybody ready to go final with this one? Just needs a lead image in my estimation. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:18, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
Now that we have a sufficiently huge amount of 'Drink' listings for every corner of this article (and plenty more in reserve on the Talk page), I believe it's ready for a star. It covers one of Chicago's top attractions, Wrigley Field, as well as several major theaters and music venues. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:26, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
Support. Looks very solid and it's very fun to read. But now for the nitpicking: Anthropologie and Gaymart don’t have hours; Lincoln Restaurant, Nookie's Tree, The Chicago Diner, and Que Rico! have no prices, the Century Shopping Centre isn't on the map, and I think Digital Network Solutions is labeled as Computer Network Source on the map. Other than that, looks great. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 18:57, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
Thanks for the scrutiny. I've added the hours & prices. I just noticed the Computer Network Source name change today. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 20:28, 14 June 2009 (EDT)
Support (surprise, surprise). If I had a problem with the article, I would have brought it up already. And I've updated the map. Great article from our resident ape, and a special thanks to Allison for pushing the drink section to star status. Unrelated, but I had a grand old time at Wrigley last Friday watching the Monopoly Man make a fool of himself. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 01:18, 15 June 2009 (EDT)
My, how time does fly. Last call on this one... (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 11:46, 28 June 2009 (EDT)
Support I only have one minor quibble - Music Box, shouldn't that read tickets or is that American slang for something? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 17:54, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
"Ticker" is American slang for a heart...so, no, that was just a typo. Thanks for catching it! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:28, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
Howdy, all. I'd like submit for nomination a destination dear to my heart: Big Bend National Park. Hopefully everything is up to snuff. (WT-en) Army of me 00:59, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
Support. It's been a pleasure to watch this article grow, and I can't see any obvious room for improvement. I hope I'll get to put it to use soon! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 12:15, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
Support. Fantastic article! I'm always finding reasons to be proud of our park articles. However, there is one thing - the star criteria for a park says that the article must have a Wikivoyage-style map (this was established when Zion was promoted to star), rather than the regular NP version. If you want, I can make this map, because this article is truly exquisite. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 13:13, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
I was wondering about that. Do you know where that discussion took place? IMO, the detailed NPS park map with all the trails is going to be more useful than a WT-style map, and it's Public Domain, so it's not like there are any licensing issues. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 13:17, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
Ironically, I think I used some of those same arguments way back when...The discussion is here: Project:Star nominations/Archives#Zion National Park. I don't want to hold Big Bend back from star status for this minor issue either, but it became such a big deal when Zion was up that I figured it would come back... (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 13:59, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
I'm not sure the NPS map is readable at printed size, but I'm also not sure I'd hold the article back from Star status just for that reason. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:22, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
If you are up to creating a WT-style map, with at least the trailheads marked (if not the trails)—awesome. It might be necessary to use more than one png for such a map (e.g., northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest). But like Ryan said in this discussion, I don't think it makes sense to substitute a WT-style map that is less useful than the NPS map. Per a strict reading of the star status criteria, use of an NPS map could be a disqualifier, but a WT-style map could satisfy the requirements for star status without being up to the NPS standards!
It would be great if we could grab the vector version of the NPS map and alter the colors to our preferred style, maybe remove the vague topographical definition, etc. But unless someone here has access to a vector graphics editing program that can import NPS pdfs (like $600 Illustrator ), then that won't be a realistic option. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 15:11, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
Just tested, and Inkscape can open it without problem. The entire background is one easily-removable element as well. - (WT-en) Dguillaime 17:05, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
Aha, so I was raising a fuss for no reason;) I'll whip up a WT-style map from the NPS pdf today. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 18:23, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
That was extremely easy! I'll play around with the map a bit more, to remove some of the less important info, make the more important info more visible, alter some more of the colors for visibility, etc. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 18:38, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
Support. I love this part of Texas, and this article is excellent — it feels comprehensive, provides exactly the right level of detail on everything, and is thoroughly enjoyable to read. (And FYI — I have access to a copy of Illustrator should it ever prove necessary.) (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 20:55, 30 June 2009 (EDT)
Support. Good news on the map discovery, that's handy, I would have not supported without a WT map (no other guidebook would go to publication with a NP map just because it's easier:) Peter, are we not using green for NP map backgrounds anymore? –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 17:03, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
Support Fantastic guide, and as for the map I have a feeling the standard dark green, would make it confusing to read, but maybe we could test it? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 17:57, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
I'm no fan of that old neon green, but I've put up a quieter green version for comparison here. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 18:59, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
Love it.... perhaps you should propose that as the new standard on the htdam talk page –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 20:08, 1 July 2009 (EDT)
It's a great article, and as someone said, it really is an enjoyable read. I just have one question: I have seen previous discussions about the need for linked articles to be at guide status. Does that still stand? There are some red articles, but more importantly, the cities Study Butte-Terlingua and Lajitas, which are mentioned repeatedly as the places to "Eat", "Drink", and "Sleep" are only outlines... Is that an issue? (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 02:33, 2 July 2009 (EDT)
I think that usually means linked in a "regions", "cities", or "other destinations" section (that is, sub-articles that would point back to this one in breadcrumb navigation). (WT-en) LtPowers 11:10, 2 July 2009 (EDT)
Hereby submitted. It has two city maps and a transit map; the atomic bomb sites are thoroughly covered, including a few that no other guidebook has picked up, but it also has enough for several days in the city, and even things to do with kids in tow. This would be our first Japan star and second for Asia. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 09:06, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
Support Yay! more non US stars! Excellent lively writing and an amazing history section! I'd like to see more of listings spelled out in Japanese though, I remember from my first visits to Japan, that I always ended up showing the Kanji from Lonely Planet when asking for directions. Though I know it breaks the system, so maybe that's an open call. As for the usual nitpicks; open during school hours - may not be very telling for the average tourister, Tachikoma's hours just reads F-W? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 09:49, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
I don't think it should be an open call; as you stated, it's extremely helpful. I think it'd be a good policy to list all attractions in their native script, if they do not use the English alphabet (or a mutually comprehensible one). I imagine it would help to list names in Arabic, Chinese, Russian, etc. on their respective pages. At any rate, I've added the Japanese script to all of the "See" listings outside of Peace Park.
I haven't fully reviewed the page, but I did notice the Flame of Peace is missing from the map (and perhaps the park description). It's located on the opposite side of the pond as the Cenotaph, and the flame is to burn until all nuclear weapons in the world have been destroyed. It's an interesting part of the park, and a good conversation piece. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 23:15, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
Yeah, that's a good idea. (And thanks, Chubby, for doing 'See'!) To clarify, though, are you saying that every 'See' listing should have kanji, or every listing in the article (hotels, bars, etc)? The flame of peace is mentioned in the article, but the phrasing of the location is muddled, so I'll clarify that and add it to the Peace Park map. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:41, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
For me, I think just "See" is enough for foreign scripts. Of course, I can't speak for Stefan. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 00:02, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
Support Extremely well-written article. —(WT-en) Ravikiran 04:50, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
Support. It's always a good sign when an article really makes you want to visit the destination it speaks of. It's incredibly well-written and all the listings look good. There's one thing though - I'd like to see a little more correlation between the tram map and the regular one - nothing big, I want to see the tram map stay (it's very useful), I'd just like to see the stations marked on the regular map so I can tell exactly where the tram goes. Other than that, I have no qualms and it's a fantastic article. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 14:59, 1 August 2009 (EDT)
The tram stations are so close to each other — only a block or two apart in the city center — that the map wouldn't be able to fit all of the names. Symbols might be possible, although they'd be a tight fit. Would drawing the tram lines on the streets work? (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 19:53, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
The tram line with symbols would be good. Maybe just adding the names of the most prominent stops would be suitable. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 20:21, 4 August 2009 (EDT)
Last call for this one — tram lines & stations have been added to the map, and a long distance call placed to Tachikoma for hours. Any other comments? (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 16:24, 16 August 2009 (EDT)
Almostsupport. My say on this has already expired (I've been preoccupied with D.C.), so you can go ahead and add the star without addressing my concerns. That said, I only have one—shouldn't the phone numbers all have the country code included "+81"? Is there a reason not to do this? It would take me about 30 seconds to fix this, so just say the word. Aside from that, I have two non-crucial map suggestions: 1) change the grey background to the light grey color—I think this increases readability marginally; 2) increase the text size of the main road names just a little bit. Quibbles aside, this is a fantastic article, and will be a great model for how to do a large-city right. It's also, surprisingly, our second Asian star, the only one since Singapore (which was more than three years ago). Congratulations on a job well done! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 18:33, 16 August 2009 (EDT)
No, I don't have any feelings about the phone numbers — the word is said, please format as appropriate. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 19:21, 16 August 2009 (EDT)
I believe everything in this section of Walt Disney World is now covered. This is somewhat of a test case, as your comments here on what might be missing will hopefully make it easier to get the other WDW articles up to star quality. I'm a little worried if the prose is up to snuff, but I tried to make it as engaging as possible. It has a full map and I'm trusting my grammar skills not to have missed anything obvious. I'm available to make changes as necessary. (WT-en) LtPowers 17:03, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
Support - I'm pretty impressed with this, and it seems like most reservations brought up at the last round (before distrification) has been addressed, especially with the great map! Get all the districts up to snuff, and we might start luring in a new demographic to our quest for world domination, google willing. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 17:26, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
Support. I'm impressed exponentially with this. I'm positively sure that a Star nomination for this article will push both the main Walt Disney World article and all the other subarticles towards being Stars. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 22:27, 5 July 2009 (EDT)
Comments.
I'm not sure about the '$', '$$', symbols on food and drink. I don't think that is what we currently use for price ranges, is it?
I see the red hands, but I have to refer to the stay safe section in a different article for the rules? What if I just printed out this one for my day at this park?
I don't like the merged See/Do sections. Surely there are some things in the park to be seen - shows etc, and other things to be done - rides etc, according to our criteria. Why merge them here?
I think exclamation marks are a little overdone - too many for one article, and I think words like pretty cool, and neat, sound a little odd, without really meaning much.
Some parts read a bit like a Disney brochure. We don't refer to the traveller as a guest in other articles, should we here? Star Tours an experience like no other for Star Wars fans? Hmmm.. - perhaps in the 80's. --(WT-en) inas 00:38, 6 July 2009 (EDT)
I've gone back and forth on them. There are pros and cons both ways. The pro side is that these match up with what guests will see in their guide maps at the park, and they make it easy to tell at a glance how expensive a place is. It wouldn't be hard to go through and replace them with price ranges if deemed necessary.
You could make that argument for a lot of things, like the Advance Dining Reservations, weather tips, Fastpass, etc., which would mean duplicating large portions of Walt Disney World in each of the five district articles. We could do it, but it would become a nightmare to maintain. I thought we usually tried to not duplicate information where possible.
Brief discussion occurred at Talk:Walt Disney World#See/Do. Shows are, strictly speaking, under "Do" along with rides according to our criteria, so the See sections would be rather barren. It would also disrupt the grouping by area organization. Still, this is something that could be done if deemed necessary.
I was starting to run out of adjectives. Specific suggestions for replacements are welcome.
Strictly speaking, the statement about Star Tours is true, 80s or otherwise. There are no other Star Wars theme park rides, certainly not in a motion simulator. As for your first comment, I'm not sure what you mean. Parts of the Chicago guide read like a Chicago brochure, too. With similar goals, that would seem to be inevitable, wouldn't it?
I think a star article should adhere to our policy, and be an example which we want to be copied and emulated. Perhaps we want this article to align with the Disney guide, but if we do, I think it should remain a guide. To become a star it should exemplify our guide style. I think this reasoning applies to the joint See/Do, and the prices as $$ signs. Maybe they are a good idea here, but do we want that style deployed widely? If not, we shouldn't use it in a star article - at least until there are enough stars to make it clear that this is an exception.
I'm not saying the article shouldn't advocate visiting the park. I just think referring to visitors, travellers, us, as guests sounds like a guide produced by the company. I don't think the Chicago guide sounds like it is written by Chicago tourist info.
I was just giving Star Tours as an example, but saying that it is an experience like no other for Star Wars fans has an implication far greater than the fact that it is the only Star Wars licensed ride, IMO. --(WT-en) inas 07:19, 6 July 2009 (EDT)
Most "unofficial" guidebooks published by third-party publishers (Fodors, Frommers, etc.) also use the $-$$$$ system for dining prices. Let me also point out that WDW's official price range system consists of four parts, not three.
It's very unlikely that someone will actually print the page out and bring it to the park, considering the fact that park maps are given away for free. Also look at it this way: I wouldn't want to bring my Lonely Planet guidebook or my laptop computer with me into the park -- it would be way too much of a burden. In other words, the purpose of the article is to provide planning information before you set out, not during your trip. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 10:42, 6 July 2009 (EDT)
Regarding your comment, "What if I just printed out this one for my day at this park?" If you did so, the map would be too small to read, so you would have no other choice but to enlarge the map and print it separately. Same goes for sections in the main article. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 11:04, 6 July 2009 (EDT)
Not sure. It is a great guide for sure, and I'm willing to overlook some of the things Inas commented on (the '$$' symbols and combined See/Do section don't bother me so much, considering we are talking about a theme park setting and these will probably be the best way to handle them in cases like this), but I think Inas hit the nail on the head when he talked about the tone of the guide. The caption for the first picture is a good example: "The giant Sorcerer's Hat tells you that you've entered a place where the magic of film is brought to life." It really does read like a Disney brochure to me. But then again, I'm not really the kind of person who would go to Disney World, so I wonder if the tone is appropriate considering the audience who will read this guide (specifically, patrons of Disney theme parks). Still, I feel like we could tone down the promotional-sounding language, while still making the language lively. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 13:32, 6 July 2009 (EDT)
I'm not sure I fully understand what you're getting at. Is there a good example of prose in the article that you could point out and I could emulate? (WT-en) LtPowers 22:09, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
I just read through the article and although the caption under the Sorcerer Hat and the one under the 13-floor drop ride are a bit cheesy, the prose within the text doesn't seem promotional to me. It's definitely not completely positive and glossy. I've never been to Disney, but the article does mention when attractions are not quite as advertised/expected. The possible let-downs and shortcomings are there. Inas may have a point about the "See and Do" thing, since it has been changed on other pages that have put them together, but it reads fine to me. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 22:44, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
I think ChubbyWimbus put it best as "cheesy". There are many good examples of prose in the guide, but I'm not sure which one I would pull out to use as an example. Maybe I would change that photo caption to "Just as in Fantasia before it, the appearance of the Sorcerer's Hat means you're about to experience the magic of film." Although that sounds cheesy too, but hey, it's a thought. After another scan of the article, I'm at a lost to suggest how to improve it, which probably means there isn't much to improve. I'll change my vote to support. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 17:22, 8 July 2009 (EDT)
My intent is to make the best article I can, so I don't want to seem as if I'm browbeating anyone with excuses just to get them to Support. I will keep a lookout for less-than-sparkling text, but some guidance really would be helpful. =) (WT-en) LtPowers 19:28, 8 July 2009 (EDT)
You're not browbeating me, I'm just at a lost to provide guidance, because I keep running into the brick wall of "this is a theme park". I'm used to dealing with cities or national parks, but everything that makes sense in those cases just seems to hit the wall here. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 22:30, 8 July 2009 (EDT)
Constructive Points: Great work, its come a long way in short time. Since our Stars are the revered models for imitation, I have some minor points for improvement.
Aesthetically, I don't like to ever see a full screen of all text. I realize that's not a quantifiable policy, but my first impression is that more pictures would make me more interested in the content. I think one picture per Section is a worthy goal (excluding Drink and Sleep). Also, the existing photos could be larger than thumb size to be more engaging (specifically Sci-Fi dine in theater, I have to click on it to tell what it is). Other iconic images that might be helpful are ones for the Muppets or Star Tours.
Structure wise, how come Get Out is missing? I think it would be helpful even if it was a condensed, albeit perfunctory, reminder of the Get In info, with links to the other parks. --(WT-en) Jtesla16 18:53, 8 July 2009 (EDT)
I have to be very careful with pictures due to copyright concerns. A picture of the big Kermit balloon attached to the top of the Muppet*Vision 3-D building, for instance, would be a derivative work of the illustration on the balloon. Not to mention potential character trademark issues. I probably should try to find a picture of one of the resorts, though.
As for image size, I thought it was considered best practice to not specify a size for thumbnails except where necessary; this allows users to set their preferred thumbnail size. If the images are too small for you, you can change your thumbnail size in your preferences.
Get Out is missing because it's largely redundant with the Districts and Get Around sections of the parent article. The Project:District article template doesn't even contain a Get Out section, so it seems that it's generally not needed. Besides, our guidelines generally advise against duplicating information within an article; they specifically say that Get Out should not just duplicate information from Get In. If you had something different in mind, by all means, let me know. =)
I think there is justification to enlarge the images in this case, and exercise the exception. Most anon Users will have the default thumb setting, and for them the images won't look like an integrated part of the article. I think if the image isn't clear at default thumb size, there is room within the policy to specify a size that works. --(WT-en) Jtesla16 20:03, 8 July 2009 (EDT)
Looks great! If you're able to avoid the copyright issues, I'd like to see a couple more images too, to make it visually complete. --(WT-en) Jtesla16 21:47, 8 July 2009 (EDT)
Update: I have added additional pictures, revised some of the wording, and replaced the dollar signs with actual price ranges. Please re-review and comment. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:44, 9 July 2009 (EDT)
Oppose. A couple, relatively easy-to-fix obstacles:
1) I think the trivia section should go. I'm pretty sure I just deleted one elsewhere, this is definitely not an established practice, and the Wikipedia experience was that these proliferate fast, with little benefit to the articles. (Trivia sections tend to be an excuse to substitute travel writing with lazier bulleted lists.) Plenty of good information there, which should be easy to move to listing descriptions, section introductions, or the understand section proper (I think the MM Club info is already there, in fact).
2) "prices vary" should be converted to a price range. I'm pretty sure the only instance was the Championship Stadium.
3) "lunch, dinner" should be converted to hours. That's a standard WT policy that I find very useful. My apologies if resort-wide hours for meals is already covered in the main article, if such standards exist. If they are all the same within this "district," then that should be noted in the "eat" section introduction.
I have a couple other non-critical questions/suggestions.
First, Street names here are overwhelmingly non-abbreviated, although we have decided to use St, Ave, Blvd, etc. instead of full names. At a Disney resort, though, perhaps the names are thoroughly considered proper names, which should always be spelled out? Second, the get around section is very long, and seems redundant given the map—perhaps it could be cut down (significantly)? Also, there are a couple referrals to the "Times Guide." Apologies if this too has already been discussed, but other (often competing) guides are the last thing that we want to refer to people—our guides are supposed to be fully self-sufficient. I'm not sure what the Times Guide is, exactly, but is there another option that doesn't refer readers to another guide (if it is a guide)? --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:14, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
1) The trivia section is Jonathan's, I'm ambivalent on it myself. It was originally an infobox; would it work better in that form?
I'll revert it back to an infobox. The reason I put it in the main text was because the main text area was blank. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 00:22, 13 July 2009 (EDT)
2) Yeah, prices at Champion's stadium "vary" because there's a bunch of different events that go on there. I was unable to find prices for the Braves' preseason games at all, mainly because there aren't any more until next spring. I could list GCL Braves ticket prices but that might be misleading. I can try to revise it to list the different events as separate listings if that would help.
3) I believe hours, as far as the line between breakfast/lunch and between lunch/dinner, are uniform throughout WDW, but the real problem is that the exact opening and closing times vary with the park hours. So, for instance, on days when the Magic Kingdom is open until 7pm, all of the restaurants that serve dinner will be open until about 7pm, but on days when the Magic Kingdom is open until 9pm, the restaurants will also be open later. In that respect, for any restaurant that serves breakfast or dinner (which is virtually all of them), their operating hours vary. I could use "park open-park close" but is that more useful than "Breakfast, lunch, dinner"? I don't know.
4) Re: Abbrevations. It had been my understanding that abbreviations were only needed in listings, but it appears I may have been mistaken. That said, I think an argument could be made for the areas of Hollywood Studios that are named after roads. They're not really streets themselves, just themed as such. Certainly the name of one of the stores on Sunset is Sunset Boulevard Shops, not Sunset Blvd. Shops. =) For the areas themselves, I can go either way, but I think the prose looks better with them spelled out. I note that existing star article Along the Magnificent Mile does not consistently abbreviate, so there is some precedent.
5) Get Around is only five paragraphs. It looks long because the map is so big. I think it's important to describe the lay of the land, so to speak, even if only for people who cannot see the map.
6) The Times Guide is a weekly publication from Disney listing parade and show times for each park. There is no possible way we or any other guide could present this information to the traveler. I should perhaps explain that somewhere in the article, if it's unclear. Suggestions for where to put the explanation are welcome.
I agree with the WP policy, I don't see why trivia can't be integrated into the article, rather than kept separate. Those sort of asides make for good, readable travel writing—spread them out! I think it's fine to give a wide, approximate price spread for the stadium events. If you're having trouble figuring out what the range should be, give 'em a call. I assume the main article's understand section would be the best place—a brief "Visitor information" section is pretty standard.
I think using "open" and "close" for park opening/closing should be fine. If lunch follows a set time, say 11AM-2PM, you could use "open-2PM" or "11AM-close" for the hours fields. (On this topic, I can't find the actual park hours for WDW anywhere in the main article.) If lunch doesn't follow a set time, then all the more reason to nail down the opening/closing times. This issue is not hugely important, but star status entails a level of polish that leaves no smudge.
Oh, and the abbreviations policy came about after that article was written—it's an artifact, not a precedent;) --(WT-en) PeterTalk 23:57, 12 July 2009 (EDT)
Park hours vary daily, and the weekly schedule varies seasonally, and the park hours are only set by Disney 2-3 months in advance. I don't think it's possible to represent that in the articles, beyond perhaps a general statement of same. Project:Abbreviations doesn't seem to require that abbreviations always be used without fail. Certainly we don't always abbreviate "United States of America" or "United Kingdom". For the others I'll see what I can do. (WT-en) LtPowers 08:28, 13 July 2009 (EDT)
I've made several revisions to the text. See Project:Abbreviations#Scope for a discussion on abbreviation requirements. I'm still working on trying to track down hours for the restaurants; they are extremely hard to find. Is that the last thing needed for your support, Peter? (WT-en) LtPowers 12:07, 13 July 2009 (EDT)
Yes, that's the only remaining substantive objection I have. I figured the restaurant hours would be hard to find, given the nature of the destination. At least the people you'd have to talk to speak English though—damned if I'll ever get the hours for those hole-in-the-wall pupuserías in DC... --(WT-en) PeterTalk 23:52, 15 July 2009 (EDT)
At this point, I'm not certain that hours are consistent enough to put into our listings, but I'll keep looking. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:13, 16 July 2009 (EDT)
I found hours for most of the restaurants, although I can't personally vouch for accuracy. The one I couldn't find is the Wide World of Sports Cafe, but I suspect that's because hours vary widely depending on when events are scheduled; I can't see them keeping it open if there are no events. I hope the article now meets with your approval -- I'm still ready and willing to make further adjustments as necessary. (WT-en) LtPowers 21:21, 19 July 2009 (EDT)
Yep, looks great! Support. Nice work on this—paving new ground is tough. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 21:47, 19 July 2009 (EDT)
The article reads much better now. I like the tone. I just think the one phone number should be consistent, and we should resolve the See/Do vs See and Do on the article templates just to make sure this article is an example of the right way to do it. I support. --(WT-en) inas 05:49, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
Great, thanks. Can I ask which phone number you mean? (WT-en) LtPowers 09:41, 27 July 2009 (EDT)
Just did the phone number. The DC stars use an ampersand instead of slash. Personally, I think spell out and in full. --(WT-en) inas 23:49, 30 July 2009 (EDT)
I'm fine with any of the three, but we should discuss it somewhere more central. It's nothing that can't be easily changed once we make a final decision, fortunately. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:13, 31 July 2009 (EDT)
Promoted. Thanks for your comments and support! (WT-en) LtPowers 17:15, 17 August 2009 (EDT)
Here we are again, folks. I think I've covered everything in this area of Walt Disney World, but it's a lot more involved than Hollywood Studios was. I appreciate questions and comments, especially related to issues that might not have come up in the Studios nomination.
Note: I plan to be adding an Epcot resorts map within a few days, but I think the article is complete without it and I didn't want to wait to start getting input.
Support. Reads really well and is packed with info. A few of the restaurants seem to be missing hours, and more info for the Buy listings (nearly all of them are missing hours) would be nice, but otherwise it looks fine. Good work! (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 23:03, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
Thanks, I overlooked the hours for the Coral Reef and the ESPN Club. Kouzzina's hours are not yet set, AFAIK, since it's still in soft-opening mode. As for buy, I'll see what I can do, but all of the shops in the park operate from opening to closing time; in the hotels it's pretty much "all day" but I can understand that specifics would be useful. (WT-en) LtPowers 12:50, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
Update. I've added the resorts map. I put it in the Eat section because most of the items on the map are restaurants and because the Eat section had room for it. =) I also have added the Candlelight Processional event to the Annual Festivals section. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:47, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
I'm very much aware it's my own little hobby horse, and I'll see if I can maybe do something to fix this myself, but either we should get rid of my little attempt to add some culture to the darn thing (which would make me sad, cause I really like it), or we need some work at the Italy, France and Canada sections in the world showcase. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 16:36, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
Not sure. The descriptions of the World Showcase pavilions are pretty long, and they seem anything but relevant to the matter at hand. (Although I admit I did the Germany, Italy, France and Canada ones myself.) Seriously, I doubt the average visitor would be enticed by the historical/cultural/religious/etc. value. However, other than that I am impressed with the way the rest of the article turned out. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 21:10, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
Support. Some Buy listings could use hours, but the article turned out nicely. I also think the descriptions are fun to read, so if anyone expands Canada, France, Germany and Italy, it would definitely be a star. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 06:39, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
Update. I've tried my hand at improving the Germany, Italy, France, and Canada descriptions. I'm still looking for hours for the shops in the resorts, but they're hard to find. (On the other hand, they're generally open long hours; most visitors won't encounter any shops that are closed just because they've showed up too early or too late.) (WT-en) LtPowers 21:48, 8 September 2009 (EDT)
Almost. The only thing I'd really like to see before starring are the hours for buy listings in the resorts. Non-essential things: 1) I don't think it's necessary to repeat the resort addresses for every eat, drink, buy, etc. listing—you could just state in the directions field what resort the listing is in (as you already have done). 2) I suggest you revisit your initial worry with the map, and find a good way to make Spaceship Earth more prominent (if you want to resurrect the SVG object I made, it's available here. As you said, it's not at all obvious where it is, and it should be. Especially for someone unfamiliar with the park, who just wants to print the map—until I read the article, I knew it only as "that big Epcott ball." Those things said, this is a very solid article—nice work! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:51, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
I think the resort stores are usually open until 11 at night, and mostly they open up an hour or two before the parks open. That applies to the Disney resorts; for the Swan and Dolphin I can't be sure. For the map, I'll see what I can do; there didn't seem to be a lot of reaction to my original concern so I left it with just a light outline around the sphere's circumference. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:35, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
Update. Maps, prose, and listings have been updated per the above comments -- please review and see if they meet with your approval. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:44, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
Should I assume the silence means approval? Or are there still improvements that must be made? (WT-en) LtPowers 13:01, 8 October 2009 (EDT)
Guess you should, my concerns have been adressed anyways, so i'd be happy to smack a Support after this one, great work. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 15:53, 8 October 2009 (EDT)
Promoted. There doesn't seem to be any remaining opposition. Thanks for your input, everyone. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:53, 12 October 2009 (EDT)
The Mall is regularly put in the top five of lists of the world's most visited attractions, so it's desirable that we cover this one well. It's an odd district article, since it's basically a city park, and thus an exception to our usual rules about what does not get an article, so I'm not as confident as usual that this will pass the star nomination process, although I do feel it should.
I perused the other travel guides to see how they handled their Mall chapters, and I found that basically all of them are very similar to ours in terms of breadth and depth, with the one exception of the Rough Guide , which devotes something like 2–3 pages per museum/memorial! So they are describing the individual exhibits in detail, including temporary exhibits, and providing maps of the bigger museums. This is something that we could do, but I don't know if we should (it struck me as overkill): keeping exhibit information and maps up to date would be very work-intensive, so this route might leave us with perennially out of date information; we'd also be duplicating the free maps and exhibit information brochures right at the entrance to all the museums. For these reasons, we've decided against attraction maps for museums in the past.
So in sum, I'm nominating this article largely because I'm curious whether others think we are currently handling the Mall article properly—if we are, I think it's a star. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 06:26, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
Support. It is very good. I have never been there, and I hate cities, but after reading the guide I am quite keen. There are a few issues with grammar, like "Not content to reside only on the document itself, their signatures have been reproduced here, etched in large granite blocks." but otherwise I like it. I have no idea of whether it is complete, as my ignorance of the place is almost total. It does seem to be a destination in its own right and there is certainly enough content for a stand-alone article. As a district it is somewhat unusual in that you cant sleep there or buy much, or by the look of things, drink at all. Nevertheless I can't see offhand how better to handle the article so I will support it as an exception. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 08:58, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
The grammar of that sentence looks fine to me. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:05, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
What is it that is not content? The signatures? Not a big issue though. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 10:22, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
Yes. Anthropomorphizing their signatures is an odd thing to do, but with all the writing in the D.C. guide, I need the occasional eccentric turn of phrase to keep from going to sleep;) --(WT-en) PeterTalk 10:31, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
Support. "Can you sleep there?" is a rule of thumb only; it is merely a means to an end. The "end", in this case, is distinguishing an attraction from a destination. While the National Mall may sit on the wide border between these two categories, I see no reason it shouldn't get its own travel guide. (That goes for just about any such location; if we can write a decent travel guide on it, we should.) (WT-en) LtPowers 14:53, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
Oh, just a note, though -- I assume you realize that the Supreme Court's location wasn't really considered as part of the original plan, right? There's one bit in there that implies otherwise, so I just wanted to make double-sure. (WT-en) LtPowers 14:55, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
Support. Any article which mentions Stephen Colbert is good in my book.;) It's really well-written and seems pretty thorough. And I'm not bothered at all by the fact that you can't sleep there - I think there's too much to see here to realistically pack it all into an adjacent district article. On a similiar note, I wonder how making this a star will impact our feelings on articles like Central Park? (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 17:38, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
Support. An extremely well written article which makes me wish I had made an effort to spend time at the National Mall during several past visits to Washington. Some nice quirky touches Peter, superb map and top class imagery.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:41, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
I have been working for a while on my hometown, and I think it turned out nicely. This must be the most thorough coverage of Hilversum in any guidebook, as it is not a well-known travel destination... As I am not a native English speaker, there are probably things that can be improved. So I hope to get some advice and tips on how to make it better, and hopefully it will turn out as a star. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 19:46, 13 September 2009 (EDT)
Looking good! Feels and reads like a thorough and complete guide. There are plenty of grammar errors sprinkled throughout the article, but they're easy enough to fix (I'll fix some myself when I get the time). A couple notes though - none of the Buy listings have hours, along with an Eat listing (Victor Consael) and a Drink listing (De Dokter), and there seems to be a lot of red links in here. I would look into fixing those two issues, but other than that it seems pretty good. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 23:22, 13 September 2009 (EDT)
Update. Yeah, the grammar errors are my fault, as I am not a native English writer ^^ I did not add the 'buy' hours on purpose, as they are all the same -- they follow the general shopping mall hours (and it's such a long list of hours). But for clarity, we could add them like this: M 1PM-6PM, Tu-W, F 10AM-6PM, Th 10AM-9PM, Sa 10AM-5PM, Su closed. I added the hours for Victor Consael and De Dokter. All the links I added are of the official website, but it couldn't hurt to look it through once more. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 11:19, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
I think you misunderstood my last point - by "red links" I don't mean the external links, I mean the links to other towns which don't have Wikivoyage articles, such as Vinkeveen and Baarn in Get in. It just doesn't look very good; I usually just remove the link and leave the name of the town, until they have an article. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 19:17, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
Ah yes, I misunderstood. I removed the red links, except in the 'Get Out' section. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 19:36, 14 September 2009 (EDT)
For the record, I believe red links on a Wiki are to be encouraged, where appropriate. Red links encourage article creation, which is vital for the health of a Wiki. (WT-en) LtPowers 08:51, 22 September 2009 (EDT)
I agree with LtPowers. Red links for valid cities should never be removed. If red links are so unbearable, then it's better to make them outlines than the get rid of them. As mentioned above, it encourages users to make these pages and shows us where there is work to be done rather than providing a false sense of completeness. Oh, and I support Hilversum, as well. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 23:21, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
Support - Museum Hilversum and Fortuna's Pool Garden lacks opening hours, and I'd like to see some descriptions in the Internet section, but that's minor issues. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 14:47, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
I added the hours for Museum Hilversum and modified the internet descriptions somewhat, Will add the hours of the pool center later. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 20:08, 29 September 2009 (EDT)
Support (belatedly). Fantastic article, great work—I especially love this photo! I feel confident in assuming it to be the best guide to the city out there. Two suggestions to make the map a little more readable: 1) change map icon fonts to bitstream vera sans bold & enlarge a bit for better readability & 2) do the same for map text (street names, mostly) to bitstream vera sans bold for better readability when printed. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 06:04, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
I will change the font of the map in the coming days. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 19:56, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
Support, English is a little exotic in places, but has an appropriately Dutch feel to it. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 10:17, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
About 5 weeks since nomination now, Any outstanding issues? (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:14, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
Update, I fixed all the issues, except for the hours of Fortuna's Pool Garden. I cannot find them online, so I'll cycle over there tomorrow to check myself. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 21:02, 1 November 2009 (EST)
Update. Also fixed Fortuna's hours, so now there are no outstanding issues left anymore. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 17:02, 6 November 2009 (EST)
Please do the honours yourself, I've heard it's mighty satisfying:) --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 21:06, 6 November 2009 (EST)
Motivation: This is the second dive site to reach the stage where it can be considered for Star status, and it is sufficiently different from Long Beach (nominated above) to be a useful comparison. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 08:11, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
We're breaking new ground here, so I imagine there will be some issues to iron out, but to kick this one of.
The position paragraph feels a bit awkward, maybe it will look better if the coordinates are just moved to the top and the info incorporated in the introduction.
The depth paragraph could use a rephrase.
It's a normal star criteria, that I think also fits here, that all "attractions" should be marked on the map; in this case I'm missing the the cave, the islet and especially the entry gully - it took me a while to to see that red path, let alone figure out this is probably the one leading to entry point. Also that green line is lost on me - pebbles/sand border?
Other than that, this is awesome work! And I like the feel of this guide much better than than the other nomination btw, it reads much more easily. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 10:54, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
Thanks for the comments Stefan.
I have rewritten the position paragraph. I am not sure what you mean in your comment. Are you suggeting that the information is put into the leader paragraph with the coordinates first item on the page? (and delete the 'Position' subsection). This would be possible with this site, but for some sites it may be necessary to provide more complex information involving bearings and distances, so the idea was to keep all that sort of information in one place. Moving the position subsection ahead of the access subsection might be an improvement, so I will look at that possibility.
I have rewritten the depth paragraph. I dont know if it is much better. It should be a little clearer at least.
Your comments on the map are valid. I will sort this out. Add labels for attractions and landmarks and make the path clearer.
Thanks for the appreciation. A lot of hours went into mapping this site, as I swam each of the contour lines towing a GPS to record a track. The green line is, as you assume, the border between pebbles and sand. As all the colour codes for the water are depth bands, I didnt want to confuse the issue by using a colour code for bottom type. Not sure how to improve this, but will give it some thought.
This site is very different from the other, which is why I chose to nominate them together, as any style and layout decisions should be applicable to both. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 09:12, 14 October 2009 (EDT)
I have made the changes to the map, but although the full size image is changed, the thumbnail remains the same even after purging the cache for the page. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 15:01, 14 October 2009 (EDT)
The new map shows up on my PC, so it's probably a local catching issue. Anyway, went over the article again, and my biggest remaining worry is that long list of nudibranches - long lists in articles are not my cup of tea - so I thought it over, and came up with a suggestion for a different organisation on the talk page. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 16:52, 14 October 2009 (EDT)
Interesting and very well written. Stefan's suggestions about the Nudibranch section on the talk page are very apt I think. A few other comments:
I am wondering why the Understand section comes after Get in? That jars a bit.
As a point of grammar, initial capitals are surely wrong when giving an English name of a species? Eg: ghost nudibranch and not Ghost nudibranch.
I am still trying to think of a better way to deal with the nudibranchs. I dont want to have to leave out the ones I dont have photos for, and red links in a gallery would not look good.
Understand after Get in can be changed if there is consensus or at least a second opinion. I don't have strong feelings about it. It is something that just happened as the formatting developed.
My position on capitalising English names of species is mildly pragmatic. If I dont capitalise, in some cases it is impossible to tell if it is a proper name for the species or just a description. Agile klipfish is the accepted common name for a particular species. How would you know this if it was written as agile klipfish? If I do it for one, I would prefer for consistency to do it for all. I am open to discussion here.
Good point on internal links. I will sort this out. Unfortunately I have about 150 dive sites to correct, but that just means it will take a while. You get this with R&D. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 13:13, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
Regarding the missing pictures of Nudibranches, have you tried looking here and here? All those a freely licensed, and egliable for upload here. I understand if you don't find it entirely kosher to have "nudi" pictures from another site, but I always find myself rooting for pragmatism:) I'll be happy to try and help locate any missing pictures if you tell me which ones you are missing. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)Talk 16:30, 19 October 2009 (EDT)
I have put in internal links in the leader paragraph of all the Cape Peninsula and False Bay sites.
I will try out Get in after Understand. It makes sense.
I will also look at how the article looks with a gallery as suggested, using photos from other sites as placeholders. Thanks for the links, Stefan. Many of the relevant photos were taken by a friend. Not really surprising I suppose. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 12:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
Stefan and Burmesedays:
I have rearranged the order of sections as suggested by Burmesedays, and moved "Position" into "Understamd", where it seems a little more at home. I am still hoping for a better heading than "Topography" for that section, but still have not thought of an improvement. "Layout" is the only alternative that seems appropriate, but I am not quite happy with it. (Topography is technically accurate, but maybe a bit technical)
I would like opinions on the new arrangement: Keep, Revert or Try again?
I'm happy with it, I follows our general guidelines as far as it's feasible without sacrificing usability for those who really need it, the divers. Topography is fine in my book, where as "Suggested Routes" could probably be renamed to our standard "Itineraries" without sacrificing anything (I think?). That nudibranch list is still a (and about the only) dealbraker for me though, for a star guide I'm not really happy with good enough. If you can come up with a different way of presenting them from my suggestion I'd be more than willing to listen, but currently it doesn't have that professional feel that we generally want from our stars - so I'd really like to see if that gallery fixes that nagging feeling. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 17:25, 22 October 2009 (EDT)
Thanks Stefan, How would you feel about just "Routes"? Itineraries sounds a bit grandiose for an underwater swim. Maybe someone else will venture a second opinion.
I will get out a test run of your gallery suggestion, as I cant think of anything better. Maybe it will look better than I expect. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 02:23, 23 October 2009 (EDT)
I have re-arranged the section as a gallery. It does not appear to work for the printable version. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 10:56, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
Support cool, think I'm happy now. Once we finally get a Mediawiki upgrade and access to common.js, it should be made collapsible, until then I'll be happy to slap a star after this one - great work. And the printable version works fine for me btw. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 11:21, 26 October 2009 (EDT)
Very well done Peter. Having the understand section first really does help. And the gallery works nicely. My only slight caveat is the map. I think it is compulsory that a Star article should have a Wikivoyageised map? You obviously put a lot of work into getting the data for this map. I can have a go at Wikivoyageising it a little if you want and upload for you to check? I see that just a png is uploaded, do you have a svg version of the map? Otherwise it is a lot of re-tracing. Otherwise, the article seems perfect to me. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:30, 7 November 2009 (EST)
Hi Burmesedays, I see you have been quite active with mapwork recently. All my maps were done on CorelDraw, so are originally vector graphics. Unfortunately I have not yet found out how to convert an output from CorelDraw to SVG. I can produce any of the file types optional to CorelDraw 9, but then I am stuck. Do you have any suggestions? Converting the map manually will be at least tens of hours of work. the original took probably over 100 hours, not counting the sitework. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 01:10, 8 November 2009 (EST)
Hi Peter. I am not a CorelDraw user so have no idea. It is apparently possible to output svg though in version 10 or newer. Anyone else ever managed this? If not, a re-trace in Inkscape is certainly possible and I am happy to try this - I did the main land section of this map quite quickly yesterday. Perhaps though someone else should put forward a view as to whether a WT style map is necessary for the article to gain star status. As I said, apart from that, to my eye this is now a star article. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:25, 8 November 2009 (EST)
Hi Burmesedays, Your "output svg" link does not work for me. I will upload the Coreldraw file to shared when I get back home later today so anyone who wants to try the conversion can have a go. Unfortunately upgrading CorelDraw is not a financially sensible option at this stage. I dont use it enough to justify the expense just to be able to output SVG files, which I only need for Wikivoyage at present. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 02:15, 8 November 2009 (EST)
It seems like you cant get there from here. Shared will not upload the source file as a .cdr. If anyone wants to try converting it I will have to mail it direct. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 02:47, 8 November 2009 (EST)
Is CDR your only available output format? If you can export it as a WMF or PDF or EPS then InkScape can open it. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:10, 8 November 2009 (EST)
A flat file will not be helpful. The idea here was to get Peter's CorelDraw9 file into CorelDraw10 so that it can be exported as an SVG. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:03, 8 November 2009 (EST)
My apologies for not leaving a detailed critique—I feel a little out of my depth (har har), given that I've regrettably never gone further than snorkeling;) I do agree, though, that the map should at least approximate Wikivoyage style (recognizing that it's simply amazing that you've swam the contour lines to complete it!). The article status requirements are a little disorganized, since to this date we have had very few non-city/district articles become stars, but the map in Wikivoyage style with modifiable vector source has consistently been held to be a requirement. Converting the map to Wikivoyage style is fairly simple—just slap on the standard WT compass arrow, title box, and scale. Converting to SVG may be harder. If you can convert it to a PDF file, that likely can be imported into Inkscape and then saved as an SVG.
On a different note, the article as it stands seems in violation of Wikivoyage:Image policy#Minimal_use_of_images. My inclination is not to simply dump the excellent, useful photos, but rather to at least make the article format more print friendly by putting the image gallery at the very bottom of the page. That will also save users who cannot print in color, since the nudibranch images won't be very useful in B&W. It doesn't solve the potential problem of low bandwidth in internet cafes, but I'm not inclined to let this hold up a star nomination. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 03:59, 9 November 2009 (EST)
Burmesedays, what do you mean by "flat file"? I'm only familiar with the term in the context of databases. (WT-en) LtPowers 08:55, 9 November 2009 (EST)
Sorry for the Jargon. The Adobe-familiar like me use that term to mean a file in which the layers have been flattened and are no longer editable as individually defined vectors or layers. So, I meant a file with no editable layers. Like a PDF. Please put me right if I am wrong (and I am an Inkscape novice), but I don't see how Inkscape would handle a PDF any more helpfully than the PNG which is already available? If there is way for Inkscape to determine the layering of a flat file which has been exported as a PDF from a program like CD or any of the Adobe design family, please tell me how - that would be both surprising and great to know! Cheers. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:43, 9 November 2009 (EST)
Apologies, yes; I was just thinking of vector formats without thinking about whether all of the layers are still in there or not. I don't think a PDF is necessarily flattened, but I don't actually know. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:35, 9 November 2009 (EST)
Yup. As far as I know you can maintain individual layer editing capabilities in PDF output, but only specific to the program which the PDF was created in. Eg you can create a PDF with Photoshop which retains the layer structure which can be edited later in Photoshop only. Not sure that it can be done generically but I am by no means an expert on this. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 04:00, 10 November 2009 (EST)
Hi Peter,
What features of Wikivoyage style do you consider essential for a dive site map? A dive site is inherently a little different to a regional or city map, so there may be features not appropriate for a dive site.
Possibly a work-around would be to make a Wikivoyage map as well, without the contours etc, which shows the basic layout of the site with the road, path, and labels for the features, and keep a slightly simplified version of the contour map, perhaps with less text? The contours are valuable information for the traveller, and I think the information should stay, but I dont know of a rule against more than one map, or that all maps must be of the same style.
What do you feel about putting the gallery in a sub-article to the dive site, with a link, and reduced captions, and just the text on the dive site article. This will mean that the gallery sub article would be a sub-sub-article: Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Pinnacle/Gallery and I dont know how that would fit in with policy. I think it might go against the letter of the law, but might still be a good way to deal with this type of problem, specially the bandwidth problem. Jani may have useful comment here, about how these options would fit in with printed versions through Wikivoyage Press. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 09:54, 9 November 2009 (EST)
I did not intend to open a can of worms when I suggested a Wikivoyageised map would be good. I do not know what Peter might be considering as appropriate, but when I volunteered to prepare it, I had in mind:
colour scheme to be more in line with the general look of WT maps.
a standard WT north arrow
road name(s) (is that a 2nd road behind the one marked R44?)
dotted line for footpath
a standard WT inset title box
WT dejavu fonts
WT scale format
A second scale showing the extent of depth band changes
Some indication of where the road routes out lead to ---(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:25, 9 November 2009 (EST)
Oh, I absolutely did not mean that you should remove the contour lines! Burmesedays' suggestions sound good to me. The standard WT color scheme might be hard to reconcile with the type of information you are displaying, but I don't think that's of critical importance. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 11:05, 9 November 2009 (EST)
I have been trying to convert the cdr file to svg. It has not been going well. So far, after about 6 hours work, I have produced what appears to be a flat image with major losses, distortions and colour changes. I downloaded and installed Python 2.6 and some other required software, installed Uniconvert, finally worked out how to get the paths sorted out and managed to get it to run using a .cdr input. It produced a distorted result, without layers, but apparently editable. I also tried exporting as an .ai file and converting that in the same way, but all I got was pages of error messages. My skills with Inkscape are also dismal, and nothing seems to work the way I would expect. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 05:23, 10 November 2009 (EST)
Peter, please email me the cdr file (untouched - exactly as when saved from CD9). I have a few professional graphic design contacts and know that one of them will have CD10. We will get there:). If that works and we get svg output OK, I will have a go at Wiktiravelising the map a little and post it on shared for your comment. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 06:49, 10 November 2009 (EST)
Hi Burmesedays, I have had some success with Inkscape since my last comment. Most of the distortions and apparent losses were due to layer loss and shape order loss. All text has gone too, but that is manageable. I have managed to reconstruct most of the map, but it would be really interesting to see how it would work in a direct save from CorelDraw 10 to SVG, so I am keen to send you the file, but there does not appear to be a way to attach the file to the e-mail through Wikivoyage. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 10:42, 10 November 2009 (EST)
Pleased you have made some progress. I know very well how tricky Inkscape is when you first try to get to grips with it:). I have just sent you my email address.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:47, 10 November 2009 (EST)
Peter the export to svg worked fine from CorelDraw ver 13.0. I have made a few quick suggestions on the map (drawn a depth scale, added a standard WT inset box, direction out markers, standarised fonts, WT north arrow) and uploaded both the svg and png. The depth scale needs labelling and I notice that I missed the yellow islet label. I have no idea how to handle the sand/pebble demarcation and maybe that has to go? I will leave it in your capable hands to accept these changes or not, and to make any more you deem necessary. Cheers and I hope that is helpful. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:48, 10 November 2009 (EST)
Burmesedays,
Well done, the svg came out beautifully, Much better than my attempt with UniConvert. This is definitely the way to go. I see that the layers have been lost this way too, but I can reconstruct that if necessary. The pebble demarcation can go for the present, I may come up with a better option, but what was there was always a bit of a place marker for a better idea. I will get to touching up the map as soon as I have a bit of free time again, as I must prepare a lecture for Saturday. One thing I would like to do though is put back the compass rose, as the map is intended to be usable as a chart, for compass navigation, and that makes it much easier to read off a direction. Do you have the raw conversion svg? If so could you mail it to me direct?
I also worked out how to download the svg's. I have been left-clicking on them like I would do for any other link, and kept getting "Data not available message", which was not particularly helpful. For some reason unknown to me, I decided to right click today, and select "Save target as". Immediate success. Is this how it works for everyone or is my browser being difficult? Once I have the svg downloaded, it will open in IE no problem. There is no instruction anywhere to right-click and "save as". I will play around with the map for a while and see what looks best. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 14:46, 12 November 2009 (EST)
Burmesedays. Thanks for the original, I have replaced the compass rose. It works quite well as it stands for colour and monochrome, but I am willing to tweak it if anyone thinks it can be improved. It is my intention to produce a PD template for dive charts once the details are settled. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 03:06, 14 November 2009 (EST)
Update on some of the issues raised earlier:
colour scheme to be more in line with the general look of WT maps.
I dont think this will work, but will consider suggestions.
a standard WT north arrow
This does not provide the navigation information in a compass rose. If there are cosmetic changes recommended for the compass rose I will modify it.
road name(s) (is that a 2nd road behind the one marked R44?)
Road name added, road at the back is a service road of no importance to a diver. I could put information with arrows if anyone thinks it is worth the effort and of any use. The road is from the R44 to a pump station and filtration plant on the mountainside treating water from the Steenbras dam.
dotted line for footpath
Done by Burmesedays. Looks good to me.
a standard WT inset title box
Done by Burmesedays, I have moved it to a legend box at the side. This appears to be compatible with Wikivoyage map style, and looks cleaner to me. Negotiable.
WT dejavu fonts
Done: I used DejaVu Sans Condensed Bold mostly, Is seems to have good legibility. Colours chosen to give good contrast on colour and monochrome display.
WT scale format
Is this necessary with the scales on the edges? I would prefer to keep these as I think they are more useful to the user. Only reason I can see for other scale is to include feet.
A second scale showing the extent of depth band changes
Done by Burmesedays
Some indication of where the road routes out lead to
Done. Made new style arrow, which looks better to me.
I have used the blue numbered WT icons for the points of interest instead of text on the body of the chart as they are more legible and less intrusive.
Awaiting comments. Cheers, -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 03:06, 14 November 2009 (EST)
Support. Sorry it has taken me so long to unequivocally state that. You have broken new ground here and set the bar for diving articles and deserve huge credit for that. Very well done.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:32, 16 November 2009 (EST)
Hey, its a tough job but somebody's got to do it:-) Seriously, though, your help has been of great value and is much appreciated. I wouldn't have got so far without it. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 14:18, 16 November 2009 (EST)
I have also done an experimental sub-article gallery for the nudibranch images as I suggested in item 3 above, leaving the text in the Pinnacle article. This will reduce the bandwidth problem and looks quite pracical to me. I quite like the result, but would like comment or consensus to leave it this way, as it is a significant precedent. There is some duplication of text content, but I think this is necessary for clarity. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 04:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)
This article was nominated 6 to 7 weeks ago and all comments from users (if only three of them) have been more than adequately dealt with. I would therefore propose that the article is immediately given star guide status. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 05:35, 1 December 2009 (EST)
I believe this article is now up to the standards established with Epcot and Hollywood Studios. All attractions are listed, as well as all restaurants and hotels. I believe the map is about as good as possible, although I'm not 100% happy with it; suggestions are welcome. (Suggestions are also welcome for the rest of the article, too, of course.) (WT-en) LtPowers 15:35, 20 November 2009 (EST)
Support. A very well written and formatted article. One small comment on the map - you might want to show a label with a directional arrow for Rafiki's Planet Watch on the main map. It took me a while to figure out where Rafiki's was in relation to the main map. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 05:13, 22 November 2009 (EST)
Support. Can't find anything wrong with it myself, although I like Burmesedays' suggestion. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 17:57, 23 November 2009 (EST)
Support. I am absolutely impressed by the way this came out. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 11:24, 25 November 2009 (EST)
Comment. I've added a label to the main map directing readers to the inset. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:57, 27 November 2009 (EST)
Although the bar for star region status is set very high, I think Bali is now up that standard. There are no articles to use as comparative benchmarks as this would be WT's first ever star region article if the nomination is successful. Indeed there are only two guide region articles here of which Bali is one.
Apart from the usual star guide considerations, star region guide status requires that all sub-region articles and all linked city/other destination articles are guide or better. Bali meets those structural requirements - all five sub-region articles are guides as are 19 of the 29 individual city/destination articles (and the other 10 are all usable). I realise that this is an ambitious nomination but it is one that I think is warranted. The requirements have been considered and extensively discussed in advance of this nomination. All comments are of course very welcome. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:37, 22 November 2009 (EST)
In general, I support the nomination — Bali is a major destination and we have a lot of good information, well-written & well-organised — but, as I read the requirements and text above, there are 10 articles that need to be brought up to guide before the top-level one can be promoted to star. (WT-en) Pashley 01:57, 22 November 2009 (EST)
Initially that is how I read it as well and that would in fact be near-impossible. However, it is the 7+2 cities and other destinations linked from the top level article that need to be at guide status. In the case of Bali there are nine of each and all 18 articles (plus one other) are at guide status together with the 5 sub-regions. This is discussed here and here--(WT-en) Burmesedays 02:27, 22 November 2009 (EST)
OK, full support from me, then. (WT-en) Pashley 03:37, 22 November 2009 (EST)
Support. Our Bali guides are now absolutely top-notch, resulting from the tireless great work Burmesedays has put into them. While the guide is only just now meeting the strict requirements for region guide star status, it also surpasses them, especially with all the subregion & city/town maps—to my count the guide has 23 maps! A first star region guide (hopefully I'm not being too presumptuous in thinking that this will pass the nomination) is a very important milestone for the site. Not long ago, our huge city articles were generally pretty weak, but the establishment of a few "templates" has led to them becoming a strength—I'm hoping Bali and its subregion articles will serve as a similar template for region articles. I won't leave the usual detailed critique, as my long list of concerns have already been met on the Bali talk page, starting with Talk:Bali#Push_for_guide_status. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 11:08, 22 November 2009 (EST)
Support, with a couple of comments.
The West Bali National Park is colour coded differently to what I would expect from the legend, where it is grouped with Negara, Gilimanuk etc. The legend colour box is a light purple, and the park is dark green. This is slightly confusing until you look at the high resolution map. I wonder if it would not be worth putting in a green color box for the park as a sub region of West Bali to make the coding clearer?
It seems to be standard WT practice to include large national parks on a region map (where possible) using the standard WT park pattern/colour and then labelling them. I think it would be confusing to include the park in the colour key as it is not a defined region. Maybe the answer is to make the park label larger? I will leave that in (WT-en) Peter's capable hands as he drew this splendid map. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:08, 22 November 2009 (EST)
Drink section: Avocado is mentioned as a "desert fruit" in the drink section. As this is a drink section, I am guessing it is blended into a liquid, but this isn't clear. Interesting though, and combination with chocolate is fascinating. Does it have a name?
Ummm.. it is a dessert not desert fruit:). It does explain that the avocado is blended with sugar and ice, so it is a liquid yes. I will make that clearer. The concoction when laced with chocolate syrup does not have a specific name that I know of - just jus alpokat or alpukat (avocado juice). Thanks very much for taking the time to read the article in detail. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:08, 22 November 2009 (EST)
Oops.
Least I could do:-).
I noticed that there was no star nomination box in the article, so I took the liberty of putting it in. Cheers, -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 12:58, 22 November 2009 (EST)
Full & unconditional" support(WT-en) jan 04:26, 23 November 2009 (EST)
Not sure. I note a few problems which may be minor, but I think an increased level of scrutiny is in order for a star article.
The prose is generally good, but the lead section in particular is very dry. It tells me nothing about why I would want to visit until the third paragraph, and even then just mentions a) the varied landscape, b) the culture (without explaining anything about why the culture is interesting, c) that it's popular and wins awards, and d) it has something to offer everyone. Frankly, those four reasons to visit could be used on virtually any travel guide. What makes Bali unique, and why would I want to go there?
Numerous grammatical irregularities scattered throughout the article, although I can probably fix most of those myself.
The listing for "funerals" seems out of place under "Festivals" where everything else is talking about regularly scheduled, island-wide events.
The listings of books under "Read" should better distinguish book titles from authors. Having it all in italics is visually confusing.
The listing for Tourism information just says "166". Where is this simple three-digit number valid? Is it usable with a country code from outside Bali? Or is it purely for calling from within Bali? Or anywhere in Indonesia?
By plane: I'd like to see the name of the airport bolded. Also, the link for Ngurah Rai Airport doesn't work for me. Finally, the next sentence about its name being misleading is itself confusing -- if the name was "Denpasar Airport", then I can see its location outside of Denpasar being confusing, but how does "Ngurah Rai Airport" mislead about the airports location relative to Denpasar?
Putting a space between "US$" and the dollar amount is contrary to established style.
Using "etc." in prose strikes me as lazy writing; I'd avoid it.
The word "bemo" is used in "Get in" but undefined until "Get around"; just adding the word "minivan" after it may be sufficient to alleviate this concern.
No prices for the ferry services from Java. It's also worded oddly, with the ferries going from Bali to Java, even though this is the "Get In" section.
"Driving is on the left-hand side" belongs in "By self-drive car or motorbike".
In "See", I'd like to see the temple paragraphs broken out into their own section.
I'd consider putting the information on currency-exchange scams into "Buy", but I'm not sure.
I'd incorporate most of "Stay healthy" into "Stay safe", with the yoga information moved to "Do". Some more information about hospitals and availability of medical services might be nice, though, and would better fill out a "Stay healthy" section.
If all of the consulates are Denpasar, just say so once rather than listing it every time.
Overall a very very good article. I still need to evaluate the sub-articles to make sure they're actually at guide status, but I don't anticipate that being a problem. Well done. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:37, 23 November 2009 (EST)
Thank you taking the time go through the article so thoroughly. As Peter has already pointed out, this nomination is a potentially siginificant milestone for WT and the article should be scrutinised very carefully. To deal with each of your points seriatim:
1. I think that the opening paras are succinct and to the point and that information about why anyone should visit Bali and its unique nature belong in the Understand section and not in the opening paragraphs which would otherwise by necessity become too long?
2. Please do.
3. Not really. Odalan ceremonies are also very much local festivals with no schedule and are also mentioned on this section. If non-scheduled ceremonies need to be separated then we could create two sections - Festivals and Ceremonies.
4 & 5. Done.
6. Link and emboldening fixed. The airport name confuses a huge number of people. The official name is Ngurah Rai International, Denpasar, Bali (coded DPS for Denpasar), or more casually Denpasar's Ngurah Rai (as in the article). So stating that the airport is not actually in Denpasar is a valid clarification I think.
7. I will fix those.
8. Indeed and will fix.
9. Done.
10. Fixed.
11. That whole section was a bit backwards - good spot - and I have fixed. On ferry prices, better to have none I think to be consistent with having no flight pricing? I have removed the one price that was there.
12. Done.
13. Not sure. Would like some other views on that.
14. Personally, I would look for currency scam information in Stay safe and not in Buy. But either way I guess. Other views on this?
15. I must confess that I am not really au fait with the guidelines for Stay safe and Stay healthy sections. I will have a good look at these sections and re-classify as necessary.
16. Sadly they are not all in Denpasar (even though the honorary title says that). I have though removed Bali from all the addresses in line with MoS.
Thanks again and I hope I have succesfully addressed at least some of your concerns. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:10, 23 November 2009 (EST)
I think LtPowers' critique of the lead section is spot on. I'd cut out all the "facts" (possibly move/integrate them into the understand section), and then keep and expound upon some of the better content in the third and fourth paragraphs. Try starting with something like:
Bali, the famed Island of the Gods, with its varied landscape of hills and mountains, rugged coastlines and sandy beaches, lush rice terraces and barren volcanic hillsides—all providing a picturesque backdrop to its colorful, deeply spiritual and unique culture, stakes a serious claim to be paradise on earth.
It doesn't have to be terribly long, or terribly informative—it should just be a good way to introduce the destination, call out what makes it distinctive, and motivate readers to keep reading. Our better huge-city articles could probably serve for some inspiration. Recent efforts have tended towards two–three short paragraphs, although Singapore offers a good example of one more succinct. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 00:37, 24 November 2009 (EST)
I had a go, please check. To be frank though, I have re-written this article (and the other 29) so many times now, I think I am all out of words - wood for the trees and all that. It might be better if somebody else does any changes to the style of prose. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 02:05, 24 November 2009 (EST)
Currency scams seem more appropriate in Stay safe to me. Agree on moving Yoga into "Do", and will have a look at the Temples.-- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 07:53, 24 November 2009 (EST)
Just looked at "See" again. I agree that there is a need for some heading for the temples, and probably also for beaches and mountains, just to draw attention to the start of a different subject. A heading equivalent to Monuments would, I think, be appropriate, but that could also be done by reducing the Monuments header to a simple bold word in its own paragraph and doing the same for the others. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:03, 24 November 2009 (EST)
Re-organised the section. I grouped beach, volcanoes, rice terraces etc under a new Landscape sub-section of See. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:12, 24 November 2009 (EST)
also drew and loaded a temple layout diagram and will expand the text to define some of the structures shown. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 00:36, 25 November 2009 (EST)
Looks good. Diagram and explanation helps too. Worth the effort I think! -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 03:03, 25 November 2009 (EST)
Support - though one quibble, with over 3 million people living outside Denpasar, is there no major hospitals outside the capital? like Rumah Sakit Umum in Singaraja, or this one in Ubud, I'd find that more useful than 5 in Denpasser, you'd have to pick at random anyway, but I don't know whether those are real major hospitals or more like clinics. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 21:57, 24 November 2009 (EST)
I can see why you might think so as there are 33 official public hospitals in Bali. The ones listed though are the ones that definitely have proper ER facilities (which was the benchmark for inclusion). I suspect that one of the Singaraja hospitals might have as may RSU Klungkung and RSU Tabanan. I have no way of being sure of that though. The example you gave in Ubud is a clinic with maternity facilities. From a traveller's point of view though, surely nobody choses which ER to go to? And more minor injuries will be dealt with in one of the English-speaking clinics specifically set up for visitors (listed in the next sub-section). I will try to add some more of those to give a broader geographical spread. Thanks for taking the time to read the article Stefan. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:29, 25 November 2009 (EST)
OK done on the clinics. There is now at least one clinic shown for each region. Not possible with ER hospitals I am afraid. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:58, 25 November 2009 (EST)
I think it's safe to say that Bali got enough support. It's been hanging in the air for weeks now, let's make it a star:) (WT-en) Globe-trotter 10:57, 11 December 2009 (EST)
It hasn't been quite three weeks yet—we should wait until 13 Dec. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 11:17, 11 December 2009 (EST)
That and the grammar and spelling are not yet "perfect" as the Star requirements require. I've taken a pass at the first several sections and will take a look at the rest of it later, but I'd appreciate some additional eyes on it. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:52, 12 December 2009 (EST)
If someone will nominate a section that needs work on grammar and spelling I will give it a go, but dont have time to go through the whole article again. Those sections I have looked at recently look good to me. Cheers, (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 01:58, 18 December 2009 (EST)
I did today some proof reading based on LtPowers comments and made some minor changes (mostly commas, word order and deleting phrases). The article is consistent and very good. I suggest we switch to star. (WT-en) jan 06:35, 19 December 2009 (EST)
This nomination appears to be receiving an unusual level of scrutiny over style and grammar. Some of the changes made have certainly worsened readibility and indeed, grammar. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 03:42, 22 December 2009 (EST)
I apologize if I made any mistakes in my attempts at correction; feel free to revert as appropriate. But I will not apologize for the level of scrutiny; it is not my fault if the "perfect grammar and spelling" requirement is not always respected. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:41, 22 December 2009 (EST)
I share the view of Burmeseday that the bar for Bali is significantly higher than with other Star nominations which passed through in the past. LtPowers: Policy states near-perfect grammatically because i think we will never reach perfection with language (non of us is professor in linguistic i dare to assume and otherwise we need an academic council to decide on grammar if we can not agree). (WT-en) jan 12:00, 22 December 2009 (EST)
The checklist very clearly says "perfect". That means, at the time of promotion, it should be as good as it possibly can be. The article status text, which is what says "near-perfect", hedges its bets because the grammar and spelling may have degraded slightly from further editing after promotion. At least that's how I would guess the wording was chosen. (WT-en) LtPowers 17:15, 22 December 2009 (EST)
A checklist is not policy, and I don't see a problem of grammar in the article significant enough to hold up the nomination. And of course, the problem with such an objection, is that it's not clear what you want altered—it would be easier for you to correct the mistakes you've found than publish them here for correction... A dilemma. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:32, 22 December 2009 (EST)
I got another nitpick: what about the use of - or — in the cities and other destination lists? It seems like the article template claims that - should be used, while Bali is using — . As this is running for star, and will be a model for future regions, should this be kept or changed? (WT-en) Globe-trotter 17:50, 22 December 2009 (EST)
We're without consensus on this, see Wikivoyage_talk:One-liner_listings#disclaimerbox (there is more discussion on that fairly trivial topic on that page and at Project:Spelling#Hyphens, en dashes, and em dashes). I think we've basically agreed to disagree until a consensus develops, and allow for differing styles. It may be pedantic, but I still hold that using hyphens is simply improper grammar, as a hyphen is only ever used properly to hyphenate , while an mdash is used for setting off a clause, which is precisely what we are doing in one-liner lists. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:57, 22 December 2009 (EST)
I am definitely a culprit on mdashes vs hyphen usage. Mostly out of laziness I have to admit. Peter is certainly correct in his assertions above. Would be helpful if there was quick wiki code for a dash as seven characters to create one is just plain ugly. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:16, 22 December 2009 (EST)
And as we are in pedantry mode:). Using a dash to set off a one liner description phrase with no initial capital and no period can be justified. But the lack of initial capital and full stop looks very strange when a second sentence appears. Eg in Bali this is fine I think:
Candidasa— a quiet coastal town, the Bali Aga and gateway to the east coast
But this is not:
Kuta— surfer central, by far the most heavily developed area in Bali. Lots of shopping and night-life and the centre of lower-end party culture on Bali --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:16, 22 December 2009 (EST)
I think the whole nomination turns out to become a bizarre story that demotivates a couple of very good contributors. I think we should be able to reach consensus. The checklist is not part of the policy as Peter stated above and therefore near-perfection should be fine (I wonder how this definition will be interpreted) LtPowers: As you are the main opponent of the promotion can you either fix your open issues in the next week or detail sections which are concerning you? There are a couple of very willing contributors (Peter, Burmeseday, I) who would reread sections if you name them. (WT-en) jan 05:40, 23 December 2009 (EST)
Apologies; as I said above, I did take a pass at the grammar and spelling but didn't get all the way through the article. I didn't realize you were waiting on me. I haven't had a chance to look through the subsequent changes to see what's been improved. This is our first region star, however, and I'd like it to be as good as possible. I'm very surprised at the lax attitude toward grammar and spelling here. I'll take a look shortly and see where the article stands. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:22, 23 December 2009 (EST)
The article history will show you that I have just given it another pass from where you said you had stopped last time. I am probably not the right person to be doing that though. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:27, 23 December 2009 (EST)
I don't see why not. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:10, 23 December 2009 (EST)
Support, after going through and cleaning up the rest of the article (particularly commas before independent clauses), although I would like to see the first paragraph under "Do" expanded somewhat to explain how one might experience Hindu culture and history. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:10, 23 December 2009 (EST)
Great to see that consensus can be achieved and thank you to all for their work! LtPowers: Thank you for the concrete feedback. I think with that feedback we can work on because even a Star article can be improved. I assume we have an early christmas present. (WT-en) jan 11:23, 23 December 2009 (EST)
With all the sub-districts at guide status, and at long last some finished history and literature sections, I thought I would give the main article a go at a star nomination. As usual my pitiful written English are likely to shine through in places, spiced up with a few Danglicisms here and there, but overall I feel the prose should be just about adequate, any help on that front will of course be much appreciated.
Critique is more than welcome, and I realize the tour section might be a bit controversial but I stand by those two listings, with their academic credentials - I do not believe that any guidebook, or lone meandering, could fulfil the substance of those tours, but this is of course all open for discussion.
Anyway, fire away and I'll see what I can do about it. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 20:00, 26 November 2009 (EST)
A very good article and one I had read before this nomination. Stefan, I have started a bit of a proof-read, have made some minor grammatical and spelling corrections and will continue later. I guess English must be your 2nd language at best and I have to say your written English expression is quite excellent. The thought of even attempting to write at this level in any language other than my native tongue completely terrifies me! --(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:32, 26 November 2009 (EST)<a
You will need I think to standardise currency codes and expression. So far I have found 6 different versions. The country article uses the format DKK 100 which slightly surprises me given WT aversion to official currency codes. I thought it would (and should) be just Kr, always expressed as Kr 100 and not 100 Kr. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 00:25, 27 November 2009 (EST)
I know, been putting it off for a while, but I'll get it done - if we settle for kr. I think it should be 100 kr., since that's the version used locally. And thanks a bunch for all that hard work on the grammar and spelling!
One question though, in the history section I had written not a bad place to found a city trying to convey 'establish', not 'find' as it was changed to, Is there anything wrong with using 'found'? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 11:04, 27 November 2009 (EST)
Oh! My gaff and apologies. Found is OK in that context, although many readers would make the same error as me. I would use either "..establish..." or "...lay the foundations for...".
No problem with helping out with a bit of proofing. It will need doing again though with a hard copy. I was reading on screen which is a sure way to miss things. Also, have a loot at the S-Tog section where the "C however" bit of the 3rd sentence defeated me - not sure what you mean there. I like the style of this article a lot by the way. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:17, 27 November 2009 (EST)
Back to English lessons: User:(WT-en) Army of me: "I like it, however i don't understand the "whiskey belt" reference in the Northern sububs summary, also the last sentence in the Wonderful Copenhagen infobox is a bit unclear"
"Whiskey belt" dates back to the less wealthy version of Denmark in the 1970'ties, "Whiskey" - because the residents here can afford/prefer to drink Whiskey rather than Carlsbergs (beers) like the rest of the populace , and they are generally old enough to - and off a social class which - appreciate a fine glass of single malt. "Belt" - possibly Danglish, but used in the same sense as the rust belt, the bible belt etc.
HAH vs HAY, not sure why this is unclear, old Danny pronounces Copenhagen like this, not an uncommon mistake among English speakers, it's pronounced more like this lass does.
Suggestions on how to make all this more clear are welcome. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 04:36, 28 November 2009 (EST)
I think Hah vs Hay is a nice touch and a cute way to explain the point. I would leave it be. On the whiskey (if single malt is the go, you really ought to spell it whisky, the Scottish way) belt, I got the implication but it is a wee bit obscure I guess. You could emphasise the meaning. Something like "...the well-heeled whisky belt...". --(WT-en) Burmesedays 06:16, 28 November 2009 (EST)
The "Whiskey Belt" thing makes sense now with your explanation (the connection between whiskey and "well-heeled" people, that is) - perhaps that link is more obvious to Europeans; I'm an American and it was a non sequitur to me (as a side-note, I'm reading your article as someone totally unfamiliar with Copenhagen or Denmark, although perhaps someone interested in their first visit;).
As for the "Wonderful Copenhagen" infobox thing, I apologize as my statement was totally ambiguous. I like the bit about the HAY vs HAH (it was actually educational for me); the "unclear" aspect is earlier in that sentence: "Sung by Danny Kaye it's somewhat of an evergreen, and not accustomed to Hollywood attention the city has stuck to it ever since...". I probably shouldn't have said "unclear"; for me, the issue is more of a grammatical or structural nature - it could perhaps use a bit of fine-tuning (not that I'm an expert on such things); the sentence overall just seems a bit unwieldy to me. I will try to be more precise with my words in the future.:) (WT-en) Army of me 02:51, 29 November 2009 (EST)
Oh, and it's a Support from me, by the way. I thought the article was very well written overall (those very minor quibbles I mentioned aside). (WT-en) Army of me 18:30, 3 December 2009 (EST)
What is the deal with Christiania? It's not in the district list, but it is an established article (and is listed under Copenhagen, but the name isn't Copenhagen/Christiania?). Should it be incorporated in another district or become a district of it's own? And also, it's still at usable status, which means it should be bumped up to guide if Copenhagen wants to be a star article. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 11:03, 30 November 2009 (EST)
It's an unusual situation, for an unusual place - It's not really a district in line with the others, and it's not really merely an attraction either. I'm still contemplating on the best way of dealing with it, it just felt a bit weird not wikilinking it, since it has it's own article, and is the 2nd biggest tourist attraction in the city. I think I'll just de-link it from the lead article, until I figure out how to finish the damn thing. I've directed the breadcrumbs to Christianshavn instead, which I believe is the most appropriate. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 21:26, 1 December 2009 (EST)
I'll get to the full critique soon enough, but I do think Christiania should be treated as a district, with the appropriate Copenhagen/Christiania title. I recognize it's the "freetown," but from a travel perspective we can and should treat it as part of the city that surrounds it (we even do this for a separate nation, Rome/Vatican). It should be elevated to guide status before we star Copenhagen. (I'm surprised I didn't notice this in advance!)
I'm inclined to hope for a quick elevation, so that we don't disrupt the starnom process for Copenhagen. If you need help figuring out how to handle the article, lets discuss at Talk:Christiania / Talk:Copenhagen/Christiania. I have at least a bit of knowledge of this weird little place;) --(WT-en) PeterTalk 21:49, 1 December 2009 (EST)
Well, it's not so much the "freetown" status, as my mental map of the city in the way here. To me it would look weird to have Christiania listed as a district in line with the others. Christiania is on Christianshavn, and is a great part of it's soul. I also remember considering merging those two, but I don't think that would work well either. So actually I'm pretty happy with the way it is.
I don't object to the notion that it should be guide status first, though, I have a really hard time getting my head around how to get it up there. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 13:05, 2 December 2009 (EST)
I am not really getting this as the logic of the article is surely that Christiania a district of Copenhagen/Christianshavn? In the same way that Greenwich Village is a district of Manhattan which is a region of New York City? Copenhagen-->Chrisianhavn-->Christiania = New York City-->Manhattan-->Greenwich Village (as an example). Or am I missing something? --(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:30, 3 December 2009 (EST)
Yes, but we try to avoid three-level hierarchies like that when we can, and it's one reason we converted Manhattan into a city article instead of the district article New York City/Manhattan. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:13, 3 December 2009 (EST)
Stefan, I had today a brief look on the article and missed one very famous spot in the proximity of CPH the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Museum_of_Modern_Art which i really like to visit when i'm in DK. I think we should at least mention it in the art/museum or the Get out section. I think it's one of the best museums. Regards, (WT-en) jan 12:14, 3 December 2009 (EST)
Louisiana is not really in Copenhagen, but about an hour away up on the Øresund Coast. The Zealand articles are sort-of on the back-burner at the moment, but when they get more complete I plan on adding them to the get out section. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 12:56, 3 December 2009 (EST)
I know that Louisiana is not in CPH but imho it should be mentioned because it is really outstanding. I will add it in the Get out section now and work a bit on it because everyone who is more than three days in CPH should visit it. (WT-en) jan 03:14, 4 December 2009 (EST)
Yeah, clearly featuring the destination at a time of Googular prominence was a good thing for Wikivoyage! We should continue doing that.
Almost support. I love our Copenhagen guide, and am looking forward to seeing it become a star. I just gave the article a very thorough proofing, and a few issues jumped out:
? I don't understand the usage of "inflation" in the phrase, "Danish design has been a victim of inflation over the years."
✓ It would be good to get precise dates, insofar as is possible, for the events section for 2010.
? How are Danish phone numbers supposed to be formatted? Project:Phone numbers advises to use dashes between the numbers you would need to dial if making a local call within the city.
✓ Brunch listings should be moved out of the article, and the section converted to prose. If these recommendations should be included in the main article, they should be mentioned in prose sans listing as the Michelin starred restaurants are in the section above. (And they should be formatted with Project:Listings, once moved to the appropriate district articles.)
✓ Ditto Gay & Lesbian section.
? Not necessary, but I'd recommend removing emails from the Embassy list—they take up a lot of space and are a bit of an eyesore. I'd actually take out the hours too, since you'll almost always need to contact your embassy to arrange an approved visit (at least that was true when I worked in an Embassy). I know these removals would be painful, though, given the tedious work that their initial addition required!
My objections have been met, full and happy support from me. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 15:32, 14 January 2010 (EST)
1. So many companies that has little do with what Danish design is are using it (like this one), that the "brand" value has been waning for years, to a point where some top companies like FritzHansen have stopped advertising themselves as Danish altogether, caused quite the uproar when they announced it a couple of years back.
3. I've used local formatting, perhaps due to our very modest size, there is no such thing as local calls here - You always dial 8 digits.
6. As for the Embassy list I'll think about a bit - the hours are for the consular divisions; visa applications and stuff like that, where you don't need an appointment. I read the email comment on the London talk page too, but I really don't think they look that bad, hmmmm.
on "inflation", perhaps you could use instead 'demeaned'. 'devalued' or 'abused' which may better communicate the point. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 05:05, 18 December 2009 (EST)
So how does this one stand? Do you have any unfinished work Stefan? Are there any remaining objections from anybody? --(WT-en) Burmesedays 02:50, 2 January 2010 (EST)
Was breaking my neck on that brunch section, but finally came up with something interesting, rather than just bland uninteresting stuff, it could probably use a skim by a native speaker, as I'm happy with the content, but not quite happy with the language, without being able to figure out exactly what's wrong. I'd also like to hear some second opinions on the embassy section, as I'm quite happy with it, but also prepared to change it if it's a general complaint - though, this probably wouldn't get in the way of a promotion. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 19:57, 6 January 2010 (EST)
I had a go at the brunch section for you. If you do not approve, please revert. The opening sentence though really had to be changed:).
Embassies. From my comments which you saw regarding London, you will not be surprised to hear that I do not like the email addresses. It looks messy. I do not have feelings either way about the opening hours and would suggest leaving them if the removal hurts too much.
Generally, I will give the article another proofread later today (the last time seems months ago now!). If this one gets the same beating with the grammar stick as Bali though, I fear we are in for quite some wait.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:56, 6 January 2010 (EST)
"Beating with the grammar stick"? (WT-en) LtPowers 08:18, 7 January 2010 (EST)
So if I remove the emails, are there any outstanding objections to this one? last call everyone. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 09:30, 14 January 2010 (EST)
To those watching recent changes, it is probably no surprise that I am nominating Hampstead for star guide status. I think the article is up to the required standard, but I should make a few comments:
The eat and drink listings are either places I know myself, or they were added to the article before I started work on it. There are a huge number more that could be added, but that would devalue the article I believe.
This is not a district with too many sleep options, and I have added the most interesting of them, avoiding a couple of identikit chain hotels which are present in the south of the district.
Likewise with buy listings. All high street chains have been avoided, although I have briefly mentioned some of them in the prose.
I realise that a couple of the attractions listed for Hampstead Heath in the see section are really activities, and belong in do. I thought it made most sense though to deal with all of Hampstead Heath in one section.
This is a fairly OtBP part of London (surprisingly so) and above all else, the article is intended to encourage more visitors by highlighting the more unique attractions of the district.
All comments and criticisms are of course welcomed. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 02:50, 2 January 2010 (EST)
Without having read through carefully, a few things should be addressed:
See, buy, and drink need section introductions, and it would be nice to see a little bit more guidance for eat as well. If looking for inspiration, I think Chicago/Hyde_Park has pretty good examples.
"Get around" is not a standard part of the Project:District article template (although that has been challenged), and I think this information could easily be swept into Get in/By bus, making the whole of the transport info more succinct.
Images should be right aligned and, ideally, spread throughout the entire article (they don't have to be right next to the relevant section).
The intro is bland and says nothing—it needs at least a short paragraph summarizing what the place is and why travelers come here. If it's helpful, (WT-en) this traveler went there for the nice neighborhood vibe, the Heath, Keats, and the art at the Kenwood House. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 11:29, 2 January 2010 (EST)
Thank you Peter. Response.
See, buy, eat and drink intros: either done or expanded.
I would really like to keep the Get around bus info. This gives quite a level of detail for two buses that are convenient hop-on hop-off services for moving between some important attractions. These bus routes bear no relation to getting in to the district.
Images. No problem with right aligning them all (done), but is that a guideline? With Bali for example, we deliberately split alignment of images. In some cases a right-left mix, used sparingly, really improves the look of an article. I have spread them out a bit, but we need to be sensible about this I think. An image close to the text talking about the same subject is lot more helpful to the traveller than spacing them evenly.
Introduction, done. I should have remembered the need for this from previous discussions, even if I do disagree:)
One thing I do need to do is abbreviate more of the road names (I have only done "Rd" so far). I think this is horrible use of language and downright ugly, but it is style policy and will be done:).
Please have another look and comment further. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 00:32, 3 January 2010 (EST)
Regarding the get around information, I'm not at all suggesting that you remove that information, just that it could be moved to the get in section, which would bring it in line with our district template. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 11:25, 3 January 2010 (EST)
I could, I just don't really want to as the scope of the information is completely unrelated to getting in to the district. The district template does not include understand (!), cope or stay safe sections as standard either...... --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:31, 3 January 2010 (EST)
I didn't see anyone who thought Get Around was always unnecessary. Just because it's not in the template doesn't mean it can't be used if there's useful information to put there. I agree with you that information irrelevant to getting in doesn't belong in the Get In section. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:59, 3 January 2010 (EST)
Some comments and queries:
Understand: What is a grade II listed building?
District map: Perhaps some indication of what the surrounding areas are?
Get in: No comment, looks fine.
Get around: Looks useful. I vote to keep.
See: Quality good, unable to comment on completeness. Image of Pergola is left aligned, but looks good there to me. What is a Site of Special Scientific Interest, and why is this of interest to the visitor?
Do: seems rather limited, but maybe that's just how it is.
Buy: OK
Eat: Gastro pub? New one on me.
Drink: Holly bush - a bit touty?
Sleep: OK
Contact: OK
Stay safe: OK
Cope: Is a local newspaper appropriate in Cope?
Get out: OK
Comprehensive? No idea. Never been there. If this is comprehensive, I dont see that the lack of certain items should hold back an article which otherwise meets the criteria. It shouldnt need to be big to be good.
Proprtly formatted? Looks good, but may have missed things...
Well written? Yes, though I dont much like sentences ending in "though". (:-/) The article seems useful and balanced, but not particularly inspiring. I wouldnt plan a trip to go there specifically, but might well feel inclined to take a day off in the area to relax if in London. This may well be entirely appropriate for the destination.
This brings up the philisophical point: Is the star for the article or the destination? If the star is to indicate the quality of the article (an opinion that I support), then this is pretty close to star quality for me.
Thanks so much Peter. Excellent feedback. Let me try to address the outstanding points.
Listed buildings in Britain. This may or may not be covered in the country article (it should be). A listed building is protected and the grades imply the level of protection/importance. A grade II building is highly protected and the fact I give about Hampstead in this respect is notable. All is revealed here. Not sure if this should be explained in a district article? Rather at the country level?
Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI). Likewise really. But I will delete that I think.
I will tone down the Holly Bush. All that is true though. It is my favourite pub:).
Do is indeed limited. It is very much a "see" district (particularly when some of the possible activities are included with Hampstead Heath in the see section).
Gastro pub. Is that not widely understood? It may be peculiarly British.
Local newspapers belong in Cope, yes. See where you can stick it. This one is several cuts above the normal local newspaper rubbish and should be listed I think.
I would not recommend anyone making a special trip to Hampstead. Rather, as I tried to convey, it is an interesting place for a day or two when you are in London (especially so for literary types). I believe that stars are surely for the article, not the destination.
It is comprehensive I am sure, with the caveats I made in the inital nomination post above. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:26, 9 January 2010 (EST)
Listed buildings Perhaps a link for those who dont know?
Holly Bush If its true then OK. Just looked a bit like owner input.
Gastro pub I dont think I have seen the expression before. It is probably what it seems to be: a pub with good food, but I like to think I am moderately well read and it is definitely unfamiliar to me. based on that, it may not be particularly meaningful to a lot of other users. Any comments from the rest of you?
Map I still think the map would be improved by naming the neighbouring suburbs. I agree that the minor roads outside are not needed.
Gastro pub is widely used in descriptions and everyday speech in the UK nowadays—it's an essential term for travel there, I'd say. It does of course need to be covered in the country articles, since the term isn't widely known outside of the Isles, and I believe it is at United Kingdom#Pub and in several places in the England article. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 15:48, 11 January 2010 (EST)
The country article is the place for explanation of terms I think. I have done so with listed building and wikilinked to it. I will have a look at naming the surrounding districts on the map. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 20:51, 11 January 2010 (EST)
Support Liking it, and not much wrong here but a few minor caveats:
The zips bothers a bit (I don't understand the system so to me they are useless in the first place, however I'm sure they'd be useful to some, but...) when I read the addresses my eyes sort of stumble onto the post code, before I realize it's not part of the address, if that makes any sense - would a comma rather than space separation (which is already done in a few of the listings) make sense?
Many listings are "housenumberless" i.e. Camden Arts Centre, Fenton House, Hampstead Parish Church and Keats House - is that because they have no numbers? due to the neat postcode system? or what's the deal?
And then two personal requests; Reading about the place and being a Dane, it strikes me as a wonderful place to explore on bike - Tried searching for bike hires in Hampstead, couldn't find any, but if you know of a place, please add:) 2nd - I know this is England, but are there no pubs/bars/clubs at all, that's open after midnight? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 12:45, 9 January 2010 (EST)
Thanks Stefan and I am pleased you like the article. Response:
Post codes are an integral part of life in Britain. They are building specific (you can post a letter with only the post code on the front and it will get to the right house). I believe they have great benefit for the traveller in these days of SatNavs and online locaters. No easier way to pinpoint a building location. A comma could be inserted. I have just followed the format used with the embassies table in the London article. We dont put a comma between the street number and the street name though for example. Please lets make a decision on the need for a comma or not here as it effects every single British article.
Sometimes major buildings in England have no street numbers but I will check those you mention.
Yep, not bad for for cycling (although it is a very hilly district). There are no bike rental places I know of in the district.
There are only pubs in Hampstead and no bars or clubs other than some very seedy members only places on the western fringes of West Hampstead. This is not a nightlife district (far too refined!). Many late bars and clubs in neighbouring Camden (I will mention that). Thanks again. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 23:46, 9 January 2010 (EST)
I think I have now addressed all points raised so far and edited the article as necessary. The outstanding issue is comma before a post code or not. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:34, 10 January 2010 (EST)
(I'd prefer not to, only because I don't want to have to go back and change all the existing listings without a comma...) --(WT-en) PeterTalk 15:51, 10 January 2010 (EST)
Support, with note that I think the streets on the map should not stop at the end of the district. I also think the headers at the Drink section is a bit confusing.. First it says "Hampstead", why first I was thinking "isn't this all Hampstead?". Maybe it should be turned into Hampstead proper or something, and then change "Others" in "Other neighborhoods" or something similar. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 18:15, 10 January 2010 (EST)
Thanks GT and I will fix the drink section. I can see how that would be confusing to somebody who does not know the district. This will come up a lot in London where we use a large district name which is the same as a small neighbourhood within that district.
On streets and boundary edges. I know Peter feels the same way about that. My view is that showing the major routes into the district is more appropriate (which I have done) and a detailed street grid should only be for the area that the map is intended to cover. I think I am in the minority there though. And if I do say it myself, I think this particular map is a good one:). --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:03, 10 January 2010 (EST)
I agree that minor roads need not be shown outside of the district boundaries. See what I did on the map of downtown Rochester (New York), perhaps doing something like that would make the distinction more clear? (WT-en) LtPowers 09:36, 11 January 2010 (EST)
I like that effect a lot. I did similar with the London Bloomsbury map but used yellow. Your diffusion layer is probably nicer looking. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:05, 11 January 2010 (EST)
We might want to move this bit of the discussion to Project:How to draw a map. I certainly wouldn't say we need to have streets mapped outside the district, but I think it is straightforwardly desirable. We don't want travelers using our maps to fall into a void after crossing a district/city boundary, and they also offer very useful context to understanding how one district fits with its surroundings. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:05, 11 January 2010 (EST)
Have added surrounding neighbourhood labels to the map. Any other comments please? --(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:56, 14 January 2010 (EST)
I really think they improve the map significantly. Cheers, (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 11:52, 20 January 2010 (EST)
Last call. Three users support, two others have commented but not indicated support or otherwise. Is that concensus? It is disappointing, if not demotivating, how few people (especially administrators who must all understand the starnom system), comment on these nominations. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 20:56, 21 January 2010 (EST)
Understanding the system is one thing. Feeling confident in evaluating articles for star quality, on the other hand, is clearly not among the requirements for adminship. (WT-en) LtPowers 21:34, 21 January 2010 (EST)
That is why more participants in the process is better. I am certainly not confident that I can evaluate for star quality alone, but I can spot some problems and when I don't see any more I support. If enough do this, the system will work. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 14:53, 22 January 2010 (EST)
Hey, I've still got two days before the three weeks are up. And I intend to use them to keep procrastinating. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:43, 21 January 2010 (EST)
Almost support. (Oops, I realize having said that, that I am now a day late! So you can go ahead and star the article without addressing the following comment.) Anyway, I can only find two small flaws that could use extra polish.
The first sentence of the understand section, The district includes Hampstead itself, Belsize Park, western parts of Highgate, Primrose Hill, Swiss Cottage and West Hampstead, reads like a definition of terms, and seems a little too dry and unfriendly. To us it makes perfect sense, since we spend a lot of time defining districts, but I don't think it's the right way to approach the beginning of an article for travelers. Something like Hampstead and its surrounding neighborhoods of Belsize Park, Highgate, Primrose Hill, Swiss Cottage, and West Hampstead, are some of the most... might be more interesting. Or even get rid of the neighborhood list (since it will follow in the next paragraphs), and replace it with something else more interesting—Chicago/Southwest_Side#Understand, for example, offers some unifying themes before going into the individual neighborhood overviews. Or start the section right off with the second paragraph, and introduce the other neighborhoods after going over Hampstead Village and the Heath. So, not much is needed here, but it would be nice to just move it away from a simple definition.
Theatres listed under "do" should give rough price ranges for shows.
That's really it, though—this is a lovely article. Other things not half important enough to hold up a nomination:
If anyone ever finds a free source for a full Heath map with trails, that would be lovely.
As you know, I'm not a huge fan of how our email field displays (it would be nice to remove the text and just have the mailto: link displayed as the mail icon). I've never been too sure of how useful the field is for most listings (would a traveler really email a pub?), but it's possible I've fallen behind the times in some way. Anyway, I'd suggest removing the non-essential emails, despite the pain of removing info that I know was tedious to gather. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 21:40, 24 January 2010 (EST)
Excellent feedback Peter and thank you very much.
Done on theatre prices and the neighbourhoods text.
Point noted about serial commas (which I have spent my whole life not using!). Hmmm.
Email addresses. I agree with you about the lousy presentation a templated listing produces. Until that is put right though, I do not think we should delete email addresses. An alternative would be to work through and manually insert mailto:tags, outside of the listing template tags. Tedious and a long job.
Heath trails. I am planning to produce a specific heath map, and trails will be a key part of that. The trails are well committed to my memory. This map will come later, probably when I am bored with Africa region maps:). --(WT-en) Burmesedays 23:58, 24 January 2010 (EST)
Great, full support from me now! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 12:33, 25 January 2010 (EST)
A question arose recently regarding what a big outlying district article should ideally look like. I actually was not nominating this article precisely because I thought that type of article was a little too strange to serve as a template for most articles, but now that this type of article is more prevalent, perhaps it would be nice to have a star to look to. I know this area inside and out, and have actually visited every listing aside from the hotel and library lists. Where sections look thin, like "do" and "buy," it really is because there isn't much of interest to list there. I'm pretty sure this article meets the requirements, and have felt that way for some time—I just didn't have the motivation to nominate it. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 19:16, 6 January 2010 (EST)
Support. Very well written, perfect formatting and definitely an inspiration for other difficult large city districts. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:09, 7 January 2010 (EST)
Support. Once again, the Chicago Juggernaut provides an inspiration for us all. A couple of things: Linda's Lounge is missing hours and Holiday Inn Express needs a phone number - other than that, all good; I especially love the pictures of the food. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 11:21, 7 January 2010 (EST)
Support. No opinion on accuracy or completeness as I know nothing about the area, but the article looks good. One jarring detail is the apparently random variation between Union Stock Yard and Union Stockyard, but there may be a good reason for this?. Cheers, (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 04:12, 9 January 2010 (EST)
There are some very minute and easily correctable things that I noticed:
"In the southeast are a couple of far-flung African-American neighborhoods." (Understand section) Does this just mean the neighborhoods are on the far outer edges of the city/area?
"The big sights on the Southwest Side are the Union Stockyard Gate. Period. And even that is a pretty small attraction for how out of the way it is." (See section) The grammar seems a bit odd. Is the Union Stockyard Gate just one attraction/place or are the "sights" referenced within the yard? Should it be, "The big sight on the SS is the USG"? (making it singular) I think this is the case, because it is referred to as "that" in the next section rather than "those". If not, then perhaps it should be "The big sights on the SS are in the Union Stockyard Gate"?
Why is the Chicago Blues Museum closed? Is it indefinite or is there a reopening date?
On a personal note, I learned from this article that it is "mother lode" rather than "mother load", which I had always assumed was the spelling. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 14:11, 9 January 2010 (EST)
I've taken care of the outstanding concerns above (and the quirky/bad grammar was intended to put humorous emphasis on the fact that there isn't much to see here, but it was probably a little too eccentric). The Blues Museum exists in the abstract, but his warehouse, by all reports full of incredibly interesting stuff, has been closed for at least two years. I think he's found more success in letting the collection tour, so the museum is in an indefinite limbo. (Incidentally, there is also the question of mother lode v. motherlode. The dictionary claims both are acceptable, and "mother lode" is the version slightly more commonly used per google .)
The one thing I have not been able to nail down are the hours for Linda's Place. I'm certain it was open as recent as last summer, and it's been around for decades, but their phone number is at present disconnected... If they've closed, that's a huge loss for the blues. I'd hate to remove it without solid confirmation that it is indeed closed, since I'm proud of the fact that our Chicago guide is the only guide to Chicago of any sort that has comprehensive coverage of the city's real blues clubs. But if deemed necessary, I'll remove it, since to my great disappointment I'm no longer there to just drive over to make sure (and have a drink). --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:19, 9 January 2010 (EST)
Almost support I like the article in general but two points I would like to see changed:
Sleep: It is split in two section which neither has the usual three levels. I think it should preferably have a price range indication or the usual budget/mid-range/splurge split as Chicago is in other areas rather expensive. I would feel a bit lost where to stay with this current structure
Get around: If taxis can not be hailed, could you add at least one or two numbers of local taxi companies (or is there a general taxi number some areas have?)?
I hope we get this to star as it is very interesting to read. Thank you for your efforts, (WT-en) jan 07:30, 18 January 2010 (EST)
I sorted the sleep section by price, and put all the Midway Hotel Center hotels under mid-range (it makes sense to group them, as they are all on one compound). For taxis, we give the big four's numbers at Chicago#By taxi. I suppose we could link the word "taxi" back to that section of the main article, but if we made such a decision, we should do that for all the district articles (and for all forms of transport, buses, trains, etc.). --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:27, 18 January 2010 (EST)
Support Sorry for the late reply but Peters changes and answers were fine for me and I didn't thought that I need to confirm that. (WT-en) jan 15:11, 11 February 2010 (EST)
No problem, I just wanted to make sure;) --(WT-en) PeterTalk 15:47, 11 February 2010 (EST)
Is there any reason you don't mention the Red line in the "Get in" section, even though Garfield and 63rd seems to be within the district on the map, and it runs just outside the eastern boundary for the remainder of the border? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 14:40, 18 January 2010 (EST)
Good point, and fixed. That side of the district is far less travel-relevant, but it's good to explain nonetheless. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:52, 18 January 2010 (EST)
I think this fairly OtBP article is now up to star standard.
A little bit of background information is neccessary though. When you look at the list of existing star articles, it is glaringly obvious that there is only one city or district article outside of the so-called 'developed' world. Even that one (Sheki) is arguably in developed country. I suspect the reason for this is the difficulty involved in gathering detailed listing information, much of which is fairly meaningless or simply does not exist at all! So please bear in mind that this is a small rock in Indonesia, there are no addresses and some businesses do not even have telephones. I have put a lot of effort into gathering the information which is available.
I do think it is now a very thorough guide to a quite splendid destination. All comment and constructive criticism is of course welcome. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 04:20, 10 February 2010 (EST)
Street names I know this is always a bit odd in Bali but neither the map nor the sleep section has street names. Does NL has street names? (WT-en) jan 04:34, 10 February 2010 (EST)
Not really. As I said above there are no addresses. There are not really any street names either, although occasionally you will hear a made up one! If you think the main part of Bali is odd, Lembongan is whole new level:). --(WT-en) Burmesedays 04:58, 10 February 2010 (EST)
Great article! Here are a few comments/questions
Map: there are gridlines or something in the water on the map, should it be like that (or maybe it is only on my screen)?
Get in: would it be relevant to mention how to get in from Nusa Penida?
Get in: it might be worth mentioning why the boat services from Padang Bai and Kusamba are not recommended
Get in (and other): some prices are in US$, is it in accordance with this? (and a very small comment: some US$ amounts have a space before the amount others do not, I do not know which is correct, but it should be the same throughout)
Get around: another small one: the text under the image has south-west, but I believe a discussion somewhere else concluded it should be southwest
Seaweed Farms: if possible, it would be good to mention something about accessibility (I guess, you can just go there?)
SCUBA diving: I would have expected 'Scuba diving' (I know the origin of the word, but is it not considered a word in it own right now?)
Directions: some listings' directions start with a capital letter, others do not, I do not know which one is correct, but it should be the same throughout
Thank you very much Claus and I am really pleased you like the article. Each point:
Gridlines - that is a truly crappy feature of the way Inkscape handles patterns:( . There is a work around and I will fix it. Interestingly, this particular map is fine on my screen so I did not fix it automatically. But this is a known bug in Inkscape, so I am sure you are right.
Get in from Nusa Penida. Good point and consider it done.
Boats from Padang Bai and Kusamaba are essentially not safe and sink all too frequently. I will mention that as I think I did in another article (maybe Nusa Penida). Good spot.
Currency. This was discussed in the context of the main Bali article here and I think the same applies with a sub-article.. The key point is to express the price in currency in which the traveler will be charged I think. I have tried to stick by that principle.
South-west is wrong per WT yes (although I commonly use it!). I will fix and standardise.
I think SCUBA is the approved form here, although it does jar with me as well.
Directions should all start with capitals I think. Will standardise.
Those are all really good proofing spots Claus, and all too easy to miss when you are very close to an article (well, for me at least). Thanks very much and consider each of the points (bar SCUBA, pending other views), dealt with.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:42, 10 February 2010 (EST)
The gridlines can be fixed by duplicating the water object (CTRL+D) and then use the color picker tool and click the aqua water color. Then go to the "object" menu and select "move to bottom" --(WT-en) globe-trotter 17:22, 11 February 2010 (EST)
Yep. That is the clumsy work around to the bug that I mentioned above.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 20:17, 11 February 2010 (EST)
Support The article is well written and has listings that fulfill our criterias. Some small issues:
The buy section is rather weak for a Star article. It must be paradise for my purse if i would visit NL with my girlfriend;-)
Maybe the missing ATM option should rather be more highlighted because it wouldn't come to my mind that there are still today places without an ATM.
Currency: As Claus stated correctly it needs to be in Rupiah. I remember that a lot of businesses prefered US$ so maybe you write it behind in brackets because travellers know they can pay also in USD and don't have to change money twice. (WT-en) jan 16:22, 12 February 2010 (EST)
Thanks jan.
What do you suggest could be added to the buy section? It is a tiny island with no shops to speak of.
I don't dare to talk about a shopping district so maybe we let it the way it is.
I am not sure how I can highlight there being no ATMs other than it being the first sentence in the buy section and imploring people to bring enough cash with them as I have done? I am also not sure it should really surprise anyone too much that a tiny island in a developing country has no ATMs?
How about a disclaimerbox? Standard is not always fully read and i missed the sentence when i read it first.
Please read the discussion about currency which I linked in the reply to Claus. The same surely applies to Nusa Lembongan as to the Bali article (which went to star status on that basis). To best serve the traveler, we should show the price in which they are charged. If you make a booking in US$, how does it serve the traveler by showing the price in rupiah (which would change daily anyway)? Makes no sense. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:26, 12 February 2010 (EST)
Thanks to User:(WT-en) Whatsinaname for pointing out that directions should not have an initial capital. I had no idea and will change right now.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:26, 12 February 2010 (EST)
On Scuba, I have followed the Wikipedia usage, on the basis that it is now a word and not an acronym. So Scuba and not SCUBA. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:26, 14 February 2010 (EST)
Support. Still a few questions though. I don't understand this sentence (but maybe it is just me): " The views from the Bukit are pethaps second to none on Nusa Lembongan." Also, we need to sort out in which section beaches belong. I'm fine with the way its done in this article, but then we might need to change beaches from "do" to "see" at Project:Where to stick it. I'm also not sure whether I like the links in the "Walking itinerary" section as they link to the beaches in the See section instead of linking to another article. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 15:01, 25 February 2010 (EST)
Thanks very much Globe-trotter. In response:
See vs Do for beaches is discussed here. I think the treatment in this article makes sense.
Errr.... it should be perhaps and not pethaps of course:). Do you understand OK now? It is a more elegant way of saying "probably best".
Is wikilinking to another section of the same article undesirable? That can easily be changed, but I wonder why?
Not sure if its undesirable policy-wise, but personally I don't see what it adds as the information is right on that page if you scroll a bit up. And this way, we could be linking all over the place as every article is filled with references to the same page.
For the rest it is a nice article, now I regret not going there in my visit to Bali =) --(WT-en) globe-trotter 03:59, 26 February 2010 (EST)
First, neither Sheki nor anywhere really in Azerbaijan outside Baku qualifies as developed world;) It does have a few street names, though! Second...
Support. Lovely article with nothing I can find to trifle about. I'll suggest removing the check-in/check-out times from that one hotel listing, as they are non-notable.
One question, though, re: The safest areas to swim are Mushroom Bay and around the mangroves in the north. Does this mean that these locations are safe for swimming, or that they are merely less dangerous than the others? And you mention that the hotels have restaurants of wildly varying quality—perhaps you could recommend a few? And can you only eat at your own hotel (i.e., are they of the all-included variety)?
This will be our first small island star, which is refreshing, and will mean that I no longer refer contributors to Virgin Gorda as an example! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 15:48, 27 February 2010 (EST)
Very good feedback Peter and I will address each of those points right away. Nice re-write of the "no hawkers..." sentence as well.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:28, 27 February 2010 (EST)
Support. Looks like really nice place. It would be nice if there was more detail for Scuba on where to go (dive sites) and what you might see at the sites, but I am biased. Perhaps some idea of the type(s) of diving? Flat reefs/walls/coral/rock/sand bottoms/drift dives/wrecks. Reef fish/pelagics/critters(unusual invertebrates) etc. Boat only or also shore dives? Are all dives professionally guided or can you rent gear and do your own thing? - (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 13:07, 3 March 2010 (EST)
Thanks for the support Peter. I have avoided giving details of the dive sites as I have never known any diver do their own thing there. I could though, and perhaps that level of detail would be best out of the article, in Scuba Diving#Indonesia?
I mentioned the highlights as I see them (Mola-Mola, Manta Rays and the very occasional Whale Shark). Somehow I forgot to mention four species of turtle though - that is quite notable. I will have another go at that section right away, and also mention a bit more about the type of dives - there are some (slightly scary) drift dives, and both flat reefs and walls.
This is probably the single most important of all our Bali articles. Ubud was recently voted the number 1 favourite Asian city destination of Conde Naste Traveller readers, and it has been in the news both because of that, and the hype surrounding the filming of Eat, Pray, Love,.
I think I have done more work on this article than any other in the past 4 or 5 months, and I am now very happy with it and believe it is up to star guide standard. It is a long article and I thank in advance those who make it all the way through! As usual, all comments gratefully received.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 07:39, 8 March 2010 (EST)
Amazing work and admit that i really like it. It seems that i missed a couple of interesting spots at my last stay in Ubud in 2008! So, now my issues.
Imho it lacks some contrasts and maybe it would help to have two maps. A more detailed one of the "centre" and a broader overview map for general orientation. I know, it has been discussed but the current map is a compromise we might don't want to have for a star article.
Monkey: I strongly suggest to expand the Stay safe section with a warning on Monkey like in Uluwatu because most unwary traveller don't expect to be harassed from them like they actually do.
Call me ignorant but this Eat, Pray, Love story crosses my attention the first time. At least in Swiss, Germany etc. Ubud is known for its art, Balinese music performance and as a yoga retreat. I would prefer to have the EPL thing a bit lower in the text as imho it's a bit promotional.
Hotels: I spotted a couple typos/spaces etc. Maybe some native speaker has a closer look.
Eat: In the splurge section you name the Maya Ubud (best coconut ice in my life and i'm picky) and the??? for their kitchen as well. Maybe you enter the Restaurants of these hotel as a listing because the Maya definitely proofs the exception of the rule.
I will have a closer look on the weekend but that's the points that catched my eye at first glance. Thanks again, (WT-en) jan 13:39, 10 March 2010 (EST)
Support. A pleasure to read, and up to star standards as far as I can tell. Nice sleep section, by the way—it can be really hard to keep coming up with good descriptions for hotels when you have so many in one article!
A couple things to be aware of: Most publishing style guides recommend that numbers 1–20 be spelled out when used in prose, other than for times and money (admittedly, though, I have zero knowledge of British publishing standards). Our convention is to write XAM-YPM daily, that is, the daily after the times is requisite. And remember the serial comma;)
Since my complaints were pretty trivial, I just went ahead and made the changes myself. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:17, 10 March 2010 (EST)
Support. It does read well and appears to have the listings needed. I do not know if this disqualifies the article from being a star, but I think it could be improved by adding/expanding intros to some sections and maybe also subsections. See has no intros at all, and the intros to do and eat are rather short. In my opinion, listings become more interesting to read, if an introduction has given the reader an idea of what to expect from the listings. One other thing, are there no other drinking places worth mentioning?, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 15:36, 10 March 2010 (EST)
Whoa. 3 sets of comments overnight! Thank you all very much, really. All very positive, and I am pleased the article reads well. It has been a long job getting it to this stage. Specific comments:
The EPL Phenomenon. It is huge jan. I am sure your girlfriend will have heard of this damnable book. Far from being promotional, the info box piece is designed to be quirky, and actually poke fun rather at the hordes of acolytes who have flocked to Ubud seeking redemption, after reading the book. Right at the beginning I call it turgid, which is hardly promotional!
Jan, on restaurants in hotels, I do not think we should break the rule in a star article of all places. I have mentioned Maya briefly as it is a great restaurant (pleased you agree!), but it should not be there as a listing when it is already in the sleep section. That is definitely a slippery slope, and not one I would care to take a step on to.
Section intros. Claus - let me work a little bit more on those. Good points and well taken.
Numbers. Hah:). I will be guided by you there Peter. Certainly the rule I have always used is one to ten as words, 11+ as numbers. That may be a rather old-fashioned British rule of thumb though. Thanks for making the changes, and for the general proofing corrections. LOL on serial commas! I am trying to change a habit of a lifetime, and I at least got some of them:).
Map. I am very much of the view that one map should be enough. This one prints in guide book size perfectly, and it is easily readable. If a user opened it and printed on a standard A4 computer printer (much larger than guide book), it is very clear indeed. Big squarish maps are an issue for in-article legibility, but I am not sure what we can do about that. Print-wise though, the map is absolutely fine. I can also say with some confidence that this map is more correct than other Ubud travel maps. The maps I have looked at in LP, Rough Guide and elsewhere all have some howling mistakes. You need local knowledge for the road layout, as well as using public domain map sources, as the latter are not especially accurate for Central Bali.
Drinking places. Not really Claus, other than restaurants/cafes. I might be able to add some cafes as bars, and will think about that. I make the point upfront that Ubud is really not a night time drinking place, citing the music curfew. That's not why people go there. You are quite correct though to notice that the drink section is disproportionately short. Let me try to address that at least a little.
Monkey warning. Very good point and will do.
Thanks again and I will get going on some of that.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:36, 10 March 2010 (EST)
After Claus' comments, I have added two more cafes which double as bars. This is scraping the barrel a bit though, and that's it for bars! Also updated the map, adding these and a few other recent bits and pieces.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:13, 11 March 2010 (EST)
Support Burmesedays: I asked my girl friend and my team assistant and both didn't know EPL. The German Wikipedia only have a brief article about the author so maybe it failed in the german speaking countries. I stayed in the Maya Ubud for three nights and only have praise for them but i understand you don't want to open pandora's box (i remember the Mainski debate on the Nusa Lembongan talk page). Only thing is the map where even my 2006 Lonely Planet already had two maps which where useful and would allow a bit more detail for the center. (WT-en) jan 08:16, 11 March 2010 (EST)
Thanks Jan. You should be grateful that EPL has not made it (yet) into the German speaking world:). I did move the info box further down after your earlier comment. Maya is a great resort, it really is, and I am happy to hear you had a good time there. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:34, 11 March 2010 (EST)
Support— great job all in all, I'm hard put to find anything at all to improve. Maybe I'm just being a curmudgeon though, but it seems to paint slightly too bright a picture of the town, and I've added in some of the downsides: terrible traffic (in the town center) and poor local transportation, for starters. It needs at least one picture of central Ubud's ugliness and congestion though, since it's not all terraced rice paddies... (WT-en) Jpatokal 07:01, 12 March 2010 (EST)
Support. When I read this, I see I really missed a lot last summer I was there:( :P But it's a great article! I added one more restaurant listing and also made some other small changes if you don't mind (and updated the map). About EPL: I feel exactly the same as jan, here in the Netherlands it is unheard of and even while having visited Ubud, I had never heard of it before. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 07:55, 12 March 2010 (EST)
Fair comments Jani. The problems with Bali's infrastructure have been highlighted in other articles, but somehow Ubud escaped. That is wrong and should be addressed. Also, I am so used to these problems these days, I barely notice. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:04, 12 March 2010 (EST)
Thanks G-t. Proof-reading is not one of my strong points:). Good addition as well.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:04, 12 March 2010 (EST)
This is something of a delayed nomination - the last major improvement to the SF guides was done in the leadup to the launch of the Wikivoyage Press book. It was only recently that it crossed my mind, "Hey, this might be a star now." It has 14 district articles, with four of those already stars (the other 10 are guides).
Just as a little background; the San Francisco guides were one of the most incredible turnarounds I've ever seen on Wikivoyage. As of early 2008, the main city article, while firm, had way too many neighborhood articles, most of which were tiny and lacked content. After me and User:(WT-en) Asterix (who I credit for almost singlehandedly bringing the star to the SF district articles that have it) put the current district system in place, the guides quickly blossomed into one of the finest city guides on Wikivoyage. Today there isn't as much activity, but the SF guides are blessed by the occasional contributor who helps to keep it up-to-date (which has made my job as WTP editor a lot easier).
So let's give this jewel of an article the star it deserves. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 14:58, 20 March 2010 (EDT)
AlmostSupport.
First, SF needs to become a star. It's an excellent example of what a huge city should look like. Second, my apologies up front for the bait and switch, since the things I said were necessary before starring, on the article talk page, have been fulfilled, but I'm adding more anyway;)
The one clear essential change before starring is the districts map. To qualify as "Wikivoyage-style map," I'd say it needs a title, compass rose, and scale—and even more crucially a modifiable SVG source! The other thing I'd really like to see done before starring would be to change the "see" and "sports" sections from bullet points to prose.
Other things that stuck out, but are less essential:
IWBN to add descriptions to sleep listings where missing. This seems to be more of an issue in the less-visited outer districts.
How do you pronounce Haight?;)
I'd strongly encourage the addition of literature and film sections to the main article's understand for a carefully selected sample of some of the best that are especially relevant to understanding San Francisco.
I'd recommend moving the "highlight walks" to an "itineraries" subsection of "see."
Add more to the buy section—highlight other opportunities for shopping in neighborhoods other than the two currently listed. Surely there are interesting buys in Little Japan, Chinatown, etc? It shouldn't be hard to come up with this, since the details needed for "research" are already in the district articles!
I haven't yet done a thorough read-through for grammar and other nitty-gritty, but knowing your work, that's probably already taken care of! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 19:29, 20 March 2010 (EDT)
Very nearly. Superb example of a huge city article. The high standard of writing is especially laudable. In addition to Peter's comments above, I have the following points about format and content, all of which should be easy to put right.
On the maps, I would like to see them both using an inset title box, and the currently approved park and water patterns, all as per the current standard Wikivoyage map instructions.
A Stay healthy section is required I think. If nothing else, an overview and of the hospital A&E situation, and listings for the main hospitals.
Understand would benefit significantly from an Orientation sub section.
Peter's point about film and literature is really valid. I can hardly think of a city that is more deserving of this than San Francisco. You could even call the sub section "Popular culture".
I really look forward to seeing this one go to star. Great article about a great city.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:15, 21 March 2010 (EDT)
Strictly speaking, "Stay healthy" is required only in Country articles. Information about health facilities is important, of course. =) (WT-en) LtPowers 16:42, 21 March 2010 (EDT)
Yep. Not so much a strict requirement as very desirable in a star city, district or region article I would say.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:59, 21 March 2010 (EDT)
A couple of suggestions for the Literature and Movies sections: Tales of the City (counter culture reading that many users will immediately recognise) and Bullitt (as iconic as iconic gets). --(WT-en) Burmesedays 23:13, 22 March 2010 (EDT)
I think I've managed to cover all these suggestions except for Burmesedays' third point: there's already a section called "Finding your way around" under Get around, which seems to cover the same stuff as an Orientation section would. I could move it up to Understand and rename it "Orientation", but I prefer it where it is now; it makes sense to me that it would go under Get around (although it would probably be more visible if it was at the top of Get around, not the bottom). Or did I misunderstand what you were asking for? (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 00:08, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
Quick work! My issues have been addressed (although I still would like to know how to pronounce Haight), so I'm happy to finally support SF for a star. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 01:34, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
Same as "hate", with the a drawn out ever so slightly longer. -- (WT-en) D. Guillaime 02:03, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
I've just added a note of the pronunciation to the Haight article. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 16:07, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
Support It's well written and is an inspiration for a new voyage. Two points that should nevertheless considered: 1. Lietrature section is a bit hard to read. Maybe can someone change the listed books like in star Bali#Reading? It's much easier to read 2. A seperate map for Presidio would be good. Currently the legend for the map is huge and both areas could benefit from a significant scale. (WT-en) jan 03:57, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
Noted on the first point - I've changed most of the listings in the literature section (I left Jack Kerouac and Philip K. Dick as they were, given their fame and the fact that they wrote more than one thing based in SF). As to your second point, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're asking for - are you saying the map in Golden Gate should be split into two maps, one for the Presidio and one for the neighborhoods? If so, I think I can manage that, but are you sure that needs to be done (it's a lot of work, so I want to be clear on how urgent you think this is)? (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 16:18, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
Perry: Thank you for your fast response! You got my intention 100% correct and sorry that i was so brief on the Golden gat map. In my view the two maps would be a huge benefit but are non-essentiell for my star support. Do it when you have time. Great job, (WT-en) jan 17:14, 23 March 2010 (EDT)
Cool, I'll try to get around to that - It's a great idea. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 18:49, 24 March 2010 (EDT)
Nearly. I agree with all the points raised above, but I think the SF total map is not up to standard to other star quality maps. It definitely needs a scale, arrow, road names, some public transport, etc. Just look at Washington, D.C. or Chicago for good examples. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 11:21, 24 March 2010 (EDT)
Not sure what you're looking for here - there's a districts map, a road map, and a public transport map, with scales and arrows (except for the public transport map, which I'll fix), just like the Chicago page. What are we missing here? (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 18:49, 24 March 2010 (EDT)
Support, great article! But I also miss some road names and public transport on the first map in the article. Further, the text on the map should be DejaVu, I guess, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 19:21, 24 March 2010 (EDT)
Okay, that's a little more clear. I can certainly add road names, although I think adding public transport to the districts map will really clutter it up. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 22:10, 24 March 2010 (EDT)
All of my original points covered and thanks for that. I see that Peter is having a go with the maps and I will reserve final comment until those are finished. I am sure it will be full support though. I really like this article. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 23:45, 28 March 2010 (EDT)
Abstain. I just wonder why so many tours are listed in San Francisco#Bus/Driving_tours. I can trust that each one provide a value-added service, but it's unclear for many of the listings what is that added value. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 04:23, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
A good point - to tell you the truth, looking at the rule that "Tours should offer something as a supplement, rather than a replacement for Wikivoyage guides", I'm not sure if any of the bus/driving tours should be in there (except maybe GoCar, but even there I'm not too sure). Can anyone else offer their opinion on this matter? (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 14:41, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
I've personally not removed the tour listings solely due to the fact that this article has been heavily edited by long-time users like yourself, so I figured the available listings had already been vetted. If that's not the case then I'd suggest taking them out. -- (WT-en) Ryan• (talk) • 16:34, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
Well they all seem like legitimate tour operators (which is probably the main reason why removing them was never really considered), but I don't know if having them here helps achieve any of Wikivoyage's goals (for instance, GoCar's front page has the phrase "put away the guidebook", something which I'm reasonably confident is not in the interest of Wikivoyage). It's not as if any of these bus/driving tours go places or do things you can't reasonably access on your own. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 17:19, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
The Tour policy grew out of similar desperation as the Project:External links policy - we know there are worthwhile tours out there, but in the interest of preventing our guides from turning into spammy messes we draw a very hard line that is easily policed. None of the San Francisco tour listings seem to be obviously in compliance with our policies - most lack an address, and I don't think any meet the "you would be unlikely to do this on your own" threshold - so I'd suggest removing the entire lot of them. -- (WT-en) Ryan• (talk) • 17:25, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
Done - I've gone ahead and removed all the tour listings, not just the bus/driving ones, because the others I feel are reasonably covered in the district articles. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 21:00, 2 April 2010 (EDT)
For anyone who was holding out on a support vote, desiring improvements to the map, I have just uploaded a new spiffy one—check it out! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:08, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
Oh my cuss Peter; that's not a map, that's a work of art! My biggest thanks to you! (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 17:15, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
Support, that's what I meant with a star quality map. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 18:46, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
Full support. I was in support anyway but was curious to see the new map. That's a beauty. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:12, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
Last call. It has now been three weeks and all concerns raised thus far have been addressed - are there any remaining issues before we slap on the star? (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 17:38, 10 April 2010 (EDT)
Continuing to plug away at Walt Disney World articles. This one is quite different from other articles because Downtown Disney isn't a theme park, but I think it still meets our standards for star. (WT-en) LtPowers 14:21, 31 January 2010 (EST)
I'll try to get a thorough read done later, but the intro "At Downtown Disney, you can shop 'til you drop, eat your fill, play all day, and party all night." bugs me a bit. I'm fine with "touting" the destination a bit in the intro, and like to see creative writing applied there, but to me it reads like it's taken out of Disney brochure. I might be the only one feeling that way, in which case I'm not going to hold it against the nomination, but maybe some others can comment on that. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 14:34, 31 January 2010 (EST)
Extremely well written and an easy read. I have a few points. Please forgive me if some of these are irrelevant for this destination, as I know absolutely zilch about the Disney set-up.
Do none of the roads on the map have names? Or are they not conventional roads but rather pedestrian walkways or bus-ways? If either (or both) of the latter, it would be helpful to mark as appropriate.
What's an Imagineer?
None of the Marketplace stores have phone numbers? Some are also missing for Pleasure Island and West Side.
In Eat. The use of a shouty, capitalised NO for NO Dining Plan, jars.
In Eat. After qualifying in the opening para that they should not really be used, I think the listings would look better if you either included phone numbers or not, rather than including just some.
Drink. I am just stunned that there are so few options!:)
I must say that I have a similar view to Stefan about the phrasing in the introduction. It does read like a Disney marketing-bite. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 02:57, 1 February 2010 (EST)
I've included phone numbers where available. For Disney-run stores, no doubt they have telephones but they're not publicized anywhere; for non-Disney stores, I was often able to go to their web sites to get phone numbers. The only roads on the map are both parts of Buena Vista Drive; the rest of the roadways are either bus-ways (in gray) or parking lot access/driveways (in white). I'm not sure how I could make that clearer. I'm also open to suggestions on how better to call out which restaurants are on the dining plan and which are not. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:20, 1 February 2010 (EST)
For the Dining Plan, it is customary here I think to use italics for emphasis and not caps. So: No Dining Plan.
On phone numbers, I think more work is required. As per the MoS requirement, I do not think we should have a star article without phone numbers for stores. I appreciate the point about the Disney establishments, but do think that a phone number at least is required for all the independent tenants. On the restaurants, if it is really advised not to use the phone numbers as the opening says, then perhaps omit them altogether? That would be better than having only some of them I think. Ideal of course, would be to find and include every number.
Understood on the roads, although it was not clear to me without the explanation. Maybe a key would be helpful. Not a biggie though.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:04, 1 February 2010 (EST)
I apologize; I think the absence of phone numbers on those non-Disney establishments was a simple oversight, as I easily found them at the web sites (except Magic Masters, for which Yahoo! yellow pages came through). (WT-en) LtPowers 11:41, 1 February 2010 (EST)
Well done. I am still a bit confused though over what has a phone number and what doesn't, what is Disney and what isn't. For example, Cap'n Jack's Restaurant and Cookes of Dublin have no phone numbers. Does that mean they are Disney establishments that you can't telephone direct? Or?
The golf courses. No phone numbers, hours or costs?
As you did not answer my question, I found out what an Imagineer was all by myself:):).--(WT-en) Burmesedays 12:37, 2 February 2010 (EST)
Well, to be honest, I'm not really clear on what you need a phone number for anyway. If it's just because the rules require it, I would have to ask what the objective is, and whether that objective is satisfied by the main Disney Dining number or not. For the golf courses, I wasn't sure how much information I should duplicate from Walt Disney World#Golf. It seems pointless to copy all of the information on attire and other regulations, although I could add the 1-407-WDW-GOLF phone number without taking up much extra space. I can't find definitive hours anywhere; I suspect they vary as the hours of daylight change. (WT-en) LtPowers 14:34, 2 February 2010 (EST)
Consistency is the key for me I think. A star article with phone numbers for some listings but not others within the same sub-section, looks like a mistake or an error of omission. Whichever way, I think it needs to be consistent. On golf courses, I agree that repeating rules and regs from the parent article would be silly. But a phone number and a price range would seem like the minimum information. In my admittedly limited experience, golf courses always have first and last tee times. I guess golfers know approximately what those will be, so no big deal. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:13, 2 February 2010 (EST)
Some issues:
Does a Hilton hotel is a budget option? At least in Europe they are min. mid-range and the prices look not so much budget to me.
Possible contradiction between the understand and drink section. While the understand section is promotional for the nightlife, the drink section sounds like a interesting locations are gone and franchise companies etc. moved in and took away the individual places. What holds true?
Map: Does the parking slot have names, numbers etc.? This is very helpful. I was with my parents fiveteen years ago in WDW and it was always a nightmare to find the parking area of our car...
The first sections sounds a bit too promotional for me, too.
It's true that a basic room at the Hilton is roughly comparable, price-wise, to a basic room at Port Orleans. But I thought it much more awkward to remove the Hilton from the other Hotel Plaza properties. The lots at Downtown Disney don't have names of which I'm aware, and they didn't all get on the map anyway. For nightlife, both are true; nightclubs as such are largely gone, but there is still much to do at night at places like Raglan Road, House of Blues, and Bongos. Certainly more activity here than anyplace else on property after 11PM.
As for the lead, I'm open to suggestions if anyone has something more specific to add than "it sounds promotional". Don't all of our star articles sound promotional? (WT-en) LtPowers 10:14, 1 February 2010 (EST)
We may integrate that explanation in the understand section because that's maybe the clarification/facts that the others have asked for as well. (WT-en) jan 11:04, 1 February 2010 (EST)
I think the issue is that Disney is a commercial entity, which our other destinations are not - which is why I didn't jump the gun and cried foul right away. I'll let you know if I think of something. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 11:08, 1 February 2010 (EST)
I'm not clear on why that should make a difference. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:31, 1 February 2010 (EST)
LtPowers: You reverted my edits while we discussed on my talk page. I suggest that as I'm not the only one that think the opening phrase of the article could be straight from Disney's promotion department you draft an alternative instead of sticking to the current version. (WT-en) jan 12:33, 2 February 2010 (EST)
Your edits didn't involve the opening paragraph at all, and you invited me to revert them; I apologize if I misread your intent. I'm still not sure what the point of them was, since they changed the grammar in awkward ways and didn't involve any promotional language. At any rate, I'm sorry; maybe there's a language barrier and I'm misunderstanding you somehow, but changing "In 2008, Disney closed down the six remaining Pleasure Island nightclubs" to "Disney closed down in 2008 the six remaining Pleasure Island nightclubs" doesn't make any sense to me. (WT-en) LtPowers 14:34, 2 February 2010 (EST)
LtPowers: The way you make your statements or interact makes me feel patronised and you take the part out that i wrote you that i didn't finish my work due to real life work. It's not the first time and I think i'm not the only one. I don't want to fuel this discussion here with offtopic so let get back to the article. (WT-en) jan 04:55, 3 February 2010 (EST)
How about losing the "shop 'til drop" bit altogether. The opening would then read:
Downtown Disney is an outdoor shopping, dining, and entertainment district in the southeast corner of Walt Disney World and comprises the Downtown Disney Marketplace, Pleasure Island, and Downtown Disney West Side. Although it's geared primarily for adults looking for something to do away from the parks, kids will find several things to occupy their attention as well.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 12:26, 2 February 2010 (EST)
I think it's because "shop 'til drop" sounds really cliche; something you're more likely to hear from an advertisement than a nonbiased travel website. Also, I'm pretty sure that the examples you gave also had a few criticisms when those articles came up for star (I think the criticisms were dropped when we came up with a lack of decent alternatives). How about we drop the initial sentence, then liven up the following one? (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 16:19, 2 February 2010 (EST)
I would very much prefer to keep the pattern so the five articles together with Walt Disney World form a coherent whole. I am absolutely not wedded to the choice of words within the pattern, but that was the best I'd come up with at the time. (WT-en) LtPowers 16:42, 2 February 2010 (EST)
The opening sentences of the other resort are much less promotional, e.g. Epcot: At Epcot, you can visit Mexico, France, and China, all in the same afternoon; survive crash tests in an experimental car; soar over California with the wind in your hair; and learn all about human achievement and international cooperation. So how about: At Downtown Disney, you can shop, dine and play throughout the day and party during the night. It might not be perfect but at least the two biggest phrases wouldn't be used any more. Any other suggestions? (WT-en) jan 05:07, 3 February 2010 (EST)
I've changed the lead and changed "NO" to "No" in the restaurant listings. (I wanted to italicize "No" but can't because it's in the "price" field of the listing tag.) Please review and comment. Any other outstanding issues? (WT-en) LtPowers 18:48, 5 February 2010 (EST)
Thanks for the all the changes which certainly address points raised, barring a number of details which are still missing. Again, it is hard to understand whether these are Disney establishments or not and if some are covered by catch-all contact details.
AMC Pleasure Island has no phone number and needs some indication of costs. Had a quick check and it is all on their website.
Cap'n Jack's Marina and Characters in Flight. I guess these are Disney attractions? Prices? Contact details? Characters in Flight needs opening hours.
La Nouba is missing a telephone number.
Spa at Disney's Saratoga Springs, opening hours, costs and phone number missing.
Marketplace shopping section - a stack of contact details missing.
Magnetron - no contact details.
Sunglass Icon - no contact details.
Eat section. If all of the restaurants listed can be booked via the catch-all Disney number, then fair enough. It still looks odd to have some numbers shown and others not though.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 04:11, 7 February 2010 (EST)
I'm not as hell bent on insisting all listings have phone numbers, but if possible all restaurant and accommodation listings should have phone numbers listed - as I imagine this is useful for seat or room reservations. I'd also like to discourage the use of "letter" phone numbers, as these are not used in large swaths of the world, and will be confusing to many foreign readers. Once that is taken care of, i'd be happy to support the nomination, with the intro taken care of, this is nice work! --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 07:53, 7 February 2010 (EST)
Ah, had missed the central reservations number... guess it's still usable if you forget something, but not as critical, I'd still prefer getting rid of those letter numbers. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 08:02, 7 February 2010 (EST)
Somehow I'd missed the AMC phone number, not sure how that happened. Most of the Disney-owned shops don't have public phone numbers as far as I can tell, though I welcome help looking for them. For things like Cap'n Jack's Marina, the only phone number I can find is 1-407-WDW-PLAY, which is the main WDW recreational activities number. I've added it to the listing. I've also added hours for Characters in Flight (prices were already there). The Spa is not missing a phone number at all, but I've added hours and a lengthy explanation of costs. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:31, 7 February 2010 (EST)
Anyone care to support or oppose one way or another? (WT-en) LtPowers 09:12, 13 February 2010 (EST)
Definitely support. It is a very well written and presented article. I have not yet had time to see if all the minor points raised have been addressed. Once again, I will say it is disappointing how few users comment on these nominations. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:23, 13 February 2010 (EST)
Took me a LOT of time to review, but you now have my support. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 21:28, 14 February 2010 (EST)
Almost Support. Great article, looking forward to seeing a star atop it, but IMO a few things need to be addressed:
For the completeness requirement, as usual, phone numbers should be included in the buy listings. They're especially useful if you need to track down details or answer questions that you can't find online... All that's ever needed for buy listings is phone, address, and hours, and the latter two are already taken care of here.
I also agree that it looks strange to have some restaurants with phone #s, others without. Is this because some should be called directly and others only via WDW-DINE? (And if so, what are their phone numbers for?) If so, maybe just plug +1 407 939-3463 into those listings? And if this is the case for all the resort restaurants (i.e., you don't call the resort?), then perhaps just put a reminder at the top of that section to only use the WDW-wide dining number?
The restaurants outside the marketplace need hours. Snack places should have price ranges. Some drink listings lack hours and all lack phone #s.
I would also recommend removing the check-in/check-out info from the hotels, as none of it is an exception to what one would expect (and the resorts will clearly give you the times when reserving a room) and it therefore just takes up space.
Lastly, I thought I'd just draw attention to the following: Opening their doors to a primarily adult clientele. If you get tired of the relentlessly artificial environments of the theme parks, you can drop by Downtown Disney at night for fun of an entirely different sort. The strongest concentration of activity at night is on the West Side, but Pleasure Island gets its share as well. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:51, 27 February 2010 (EST)
I have included all the phone numbers I can find. Of the ones remaining, I suspect several shops (like Mickey's Mart and the DisneyQuest Emporium) and some restaurants may not have external phone numbers at all. I am admittedly at a loss to understand what possible use the phone numbers might be, but I realize our policies require it. I'm open to suggestions.
The Eat section does say "The telephone numbers below are for extraordinary circumstances only; for reservations and most health or diet issues, call the main Disney Dining number at +1 407 WDW-DINE (939-3463)." Should I repeat that in each of the subsections?
I don't understand how to do price ranges for snack places, since you can't really eat a whole meal there. Is it just a range of menu item prices?
I can remove checkin/checkout, but they're still listed in the policy page.
Does that bit you quoted sound a little... misleading? I don't read it that way, but that's me. (WT-en) LtPowers 16:42, 27 February 2010 (EST)
Re 1: Inventory questions are usually the most important reason for phone numbers. If there are general numbers, could you call them to ask what the individual numbers would be? Not all info is available online. I don't have any real recommendations re: 2, and wouldn't want that to hold up a starnom—just that I agree it looks a little confusing. Re: 3, yes, e.g., ice cream store, $2-4.50. Re: 5, don't worry, it's perfectly clear—I'm just trying to inject levity into the starnom page;) --(WT-en) PeterTalk 19:58, 27 February 2010 (EST)
Okay, I've addressed several of the issues. I'm still not sure what to do with phone numbers for the resort restaurants; all I can find is either WDW-DINE (usually) or the main resort phone number (more rarely). WDW-DINE is covered at the beginning of the eat section, so I'd rather not put it in there, but I could do the resort number. I just don't want to be misleading; I wouldn't want someone calling it and not realizing it's not a direct line to the kitchen or what have you. I'm still looking for numbers for a few of the shops, but I'm not holding out great hope; it's entirely possible they don't have external phone numbers. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:53, 5 March 2010 (EST)
Hey, folks, here's where we stand.
After researching pretty much every way I know how, I believe I've gotten all the phone numbers I can. As far as I can tell, all remaining listings without phone numbers (shops, restaurants, and lounges alike) have no direct incoming line from outside the resort. As I see it, there are two options: I can put in "parent entity" phone numbers (which would be the resort number for resort restaurants and lounges, the colocated restaurant in the case of Cooke's of Dublin and Wolfgang Puck's The Dining Room, and the main Downtown Disney number for everything else), or I can leave them as-is. The former, to me, is misleading and of dubious value to the traveler, but I can do it if the latter option remains unacceptable.
I have retained checkin and checkout information as the Project:Accommodation listings policy page does not say anything about them being optional, and star articles must follow our style policies.
I have no idea where consensus stands on promoting this article. I think Burmesedays and Jonathan are on board as supporting, but others have commented without making a decision one way or the other. Any final thoughts?
-- (WT-en) LtPowers 16:26, 15 April 2010 (EDT)
Could you mention whatever general number you can call in the buy intro? When some of the listings lack phone #s, a) it's not clear what to call to get something like an inventory check, and b) it looks incomplete.
When a policy page does not make something clear, we look to discussion and practice. In practice, most of our star articles omit check-in and check-out times. In discussion, the rough consensus was that we should include them only when they are an exception to the rule, and that we should therefore remove the fields from the listing editor (they would still be accessible by editing the page). This isn't an issue that I think should hold up a starnom, but it is relevant for printing—it's an issue of trimming the fat to reduce page counts. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 10:32, 21 April 2010 (EDT)
I see your point about clutter. Checkin/checkout times are hardly an issue at Disney hotels these days anyway, with early check-in allowing you to leave your bags with bell services and have them delivered to your room when it's ready. I've removed the checkin/out times and will update the MOS accordingly.
I've put the Guest Relations number for Downtown Disney in the intro to the Buy section, along with instructions on what to do with it.
Well, by now you folks know the drill. This is the last of the five district articles for Walt Disney World. There's a lot to cover in this park, but I think I caught almost all of it. =) I've gotten complaints about promotional language in the past; hopefully this article avoids that problem, but let me know if you see anything off. (WT-en) LtPowers 22:03, 3 August 2010 (EDT)
hmI'm missing a map in the get in/get around section. It is far from the other parks and an overview map of the park would be awesome. I got lost in the park while visiting with my family and it is much walking in this park. The sleep section is mostly Disney hotels. Do they have nearby none Disney hotels that are open to non DoD employees? It's will written and the similarities to the other WDW articles are clearly visible. I will read if i have more time so that's just my points that immediately came to my mind. (WT-en) jan 09:51, 4 August 2010 (EDT)
Twice? That's insane. Sorry about that. Anyway, the Magic Kingdom is entirely surrounded by Disney property, so there are no non-Disney hotels nearby. Except for the ones at Downtown Disney Hotel Plaza (and, depending on how you count, the Swan and Dolphin) the rest are all off Disney property in Lake Buena Vista or Kissimmee. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:34, 4 August 2010 (EDT)
Lately WT was pretty slow and it seems that the technical side is deteriorating. Concerning the hotels: Maybe we add a note that there are only Disney hotels so everyone knows that they either need to commute or take a Disney hotel. I think that would be an interesting point for travellers. (WT-en) jan 14:23, 4 August 2010 (EDT)
Well don't forget the main article, which covers the situation well; is it really a surprise that there are very few non-Disney hotels on Disney property? (WT-en) LtPowers 15:26, 4 August 2010 (EDT)
You are right. I missed the main WDW article which explains the sleep situation in good detail. I have then only one issue left. Quite some listings have this Image:Stop_hand.png at the end and are not changeable. Is this on purpose or it's the technical side again? (WT-en) jan 04:40, 6 August 2010 (EDT)
Yep, I discovered that here -- Wikivoyage Press's book-generating engine doesn't strip out image markup inside listings tags. To be honest, I'm not actually a huge fan of using that icon to indicate safety restrictions, but any other solution I've thought of is far more unwieldy and so I've just left 'em. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:39, 6 August 2010 (EDT)
The stop hand icon was my idea, and seriously I can't think of any other way.:) However, I'm impressed with how this finally came out, so I support this nomination. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 14:32, 7 August 2010 (EDT)
Support I had a closer look and would say it's fine for star. I adressed my points above but they won't hold up this nomination. (WT-en) jan 11:43, 25 August 2010 (EDT)
This site has been improved a lot over the last few months. The map is not quite ready, but needs comment. The svg has not yet been uploaded, but that is just a matter of doing it when the map is right. Other than that, I think the article meets most, if not all the criteria, and by nominating it I hope to get suggestions on what more is needed. I look forward to the creative criticism that helped get Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Pinnacle to star.
Partridge Point is a large dive site compared with Pinnacle, and it is much better known among the local divers, and has been quite popular for years. However, the development of the Wikivoyage article seems to have pushed up the number of dive charters advertised for the site this season, and the mapping of the site has opened up new parts of it. Local divers are getting the message and starting to use the guide. I just wish a few of them would start contributing, but with luck this will happen eventually.
Besides that, it has been great fun to map, and see the layout unfold itself gradually as I get the data from the GPS tracks onto Inkscape. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 13:25, 16 August 2010 (EDT)
Uncertain I already had a close look and in general i like this article. I'm not a diver so i can't comment on the quality of the routing and your hints. The only thing i'm really missing is a map on how to get to this route (some sort of get in section) on the landside. If others say the diving part is good, i would support the article. (WT-en) jan 15:43, 3 September 2010 (EDT)
Although the dive site is close to the shore, it is a boat access dive for several reasons, the most important being that you have to cross private land to get to the shore near enough to swim there, so although there is a dirt track to a house at the point, it has a locked gate and divers may not use it, even if they wanted to (the main road is 100m above the shore at this point - a long steep walk in dive gear with about 30 to 40kg of cylinder and weights). I have done this as a shore dive in about 1984, and would not willingly do so again. Therefore, no point in indicating a path on land, it would only get people into trouble. Cheers, (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 10:51, 5 September 2010 (EDT)
I have added a sub-article on the launch site (see also below) which should help address the access issue, and have also changed the text to clarify. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 02:43, 7 September 2010 (EDT)
having managed to finish my RL deadline early (wonders never cease) some more thoughts on this article: is it perhaps an idea to give a map on how to get to Millers Point slipway? Along with a helpful hint about not to park in the wrong place?
Also, why is Geology not a proper subheading? (it's under 'areas around Partridge Point' which makes it look like it's the Geology of the areas around Partridge Point and not the geology of Partridge)
and why, in the Geology section, is Peninsula in italics?
then, what protocol do you use to determine which animals get capital letters and which don't? for example:
'Hottentot seabream, Roman, Galjoen, Blacktail, Fransmadam and Zebra may be seen here, and also puffadder shy sharks. ' why no caps for sharks?
and here:
'Large shoals of small fish such as Hottentot sea bream and Fransmadam are frequently seen, and smaller groups of larger reef fish such as Roman, John Brown, Two-tone fingerfin and Galjoen. Cryptic species such as klipfish and redfingers are fairly common. '
then: swim-through or swimthrough? you have both.
finally:
all I can add is that there are several mentions of parts of the site which have not yet been mapped in detail -- should these mentions stay in or should they be ignored/deleted for now and then added in when the descriptions exist?
Hi Seascapeza. Thanks for the useful comments. In approximate order:
Map idea is good, the route map in the main article is not really sufficient on its own, and there are a large number of sites serviced by Miller's Point slipway, so I have started a sub-article for the Miller's Point slipway which can be linked from all of the sites which are accessed from there. All useful advice for the slipway can be at this one place. I guess I will have to do the same for all the other major launch sites eventually. The current map I have there is a placeholder until I get to drawing a better one. What do you think? Any useful comments on the format/template of the launch site article?
Geology has been a minor subsection of topography since the original dive site template was designed and reached consensus. I have moved it to below the leader paragraph of the topography section where it now obviously applies to the whole area. This could be changed, but for consitency would then have to be changed for all the dive sites, and geology is not a major heading.
I use italics to indicate geological formation names, in much the same way they are used with genus and species. It is not a universal convention, but it is a way of indicating that the names dont just refer to a place. Capitals would not help here.
I use capitals for the first word of a common name for a species. This is to indicate that it is a specific name and not a generalised description. Otherwise how would a reader know that a Walking anemone is not just an anemone walking, as an example. Usage is erratic and I have tried to clean up, but may have missed a few. Feel free to correct on sight. For example, klipfish and Redfingers, but Blue-spotted klipfish. I am open to better suggestions.
Swim-through vs swimthrough. Not fussy, have changed all to swim-through for consistancy. If you prefer the other way, go ahead and change them.
Parts not yet mapped: I dont know, do you think it is more useful to the diver to mention that the places are not mapped yet, or just not mention them. Might it encourage the adventurous diver to go out and explore where lack of any comment might imply lack of any interesting things to see?
Finally, as a diver, could you comment on jan's reservations (above) about the usefulness of the diving information? (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 02:37, 7 September 2010 (EDT)
I have just uploaded the latest versions of all the maps and the svg. The False Bay west side season is drawing to an end, and the article may be as complete as I can get it until next winter, so I will give it another few days until 14 days have elapsed since the last person commented, and unless there are any others who wish to comment in that time, will then upgrade to star. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 15:14, 17 September 2010 (EDT)
I'm nominating this one now as it is soon to be a OTBP feature and it would be mighty nice for it to be a star when its up there. I don't think it is too far off star-hood but no doubt others we spot the wrinkles I missed. (WT-en) Cardboardbird 00:12, 3 September 2010 (EDT)
CloseFull support(WT-en) jan 09:11, 24 September 2010 (EDT)I have seen the article in the past several times and really liked it's improvement. Here are my points: The Get in by plane section is not fully listingfied as in Nusa Lembongan. The distances are already discussed on the talk page and it should be clarified how long it takes. Last point is that the map. When i look at the Kimberly map the border to NT looks pretty close. Is Kununurra a interstate border town? Then in the get in section not only the distance to Katherine should be named but also how far the border for Quarantine is. All in all very good manageable for star before the otbp premiere starts. Excellent job! (WT-en) jan 15:40, 3 September 2010 (EDT)
I have made the changes to address the points. Flights listingified and updated. A few changes to distances etc. Just need to drum up some more support to push it over the starhood line. (WT-en) Cardboardbird 04:01, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
Support Looks pretty good to me. Possibly a map to show where it is in context of the rest of Australia would be useful, though a click on the Kimberley link gets that anyway. It is just that as an OTBP, people will tend to wonder where it is, as they are unlikely to have heard of it, and most non-Australians, even if they have heard of the Kimberleys, probably dont know exactly where they are. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 04:01, 6 September 2010 (EDT)
AlmostSupport. It looks pretty good, however, the map misses some of the listings, eg all of the Buy and Drink listings. And why are some of the roads with dotted lines?, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 06:14, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
Drink and Buy added to the map and uploaded. The dotted lines are unsealed roads. (WT-en) Cardboardbird 05:49, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
Almost This is a very good article i think, but there are a few things that should be fixed if possible
There is some mishap with the email address for Kununurra Visitor Centre, the phone number is repeated twice as an email address.
IANANS but isn't "there isn't a local bus" bad english? it's repeated a few times in the guide
Rumours Patisserie and The Argyle Room, Liquorland, Thirsty Camel Bottle-O, the Aussie Bar and KG Sports Bar lacks opening hours
Should be easy to fix up, and then I'd happily throw my support. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 07:16, 26 September 2010 (EDT)
These points have been addressed now. (WT-en) Cardboardbird 09:39, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
Support then, good work, I know first hand how tedious it can get to push guides that final stretch --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 10:22, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
AlmostSupport. Here are some more minor remarks:
Ord River or Ord river
days of the week in the listings in the get in section should either be abbreviated to the minimum number of letters (standard), or spelled out in full (if the abbreviation looks odd)
it looks odd to bold 'local bus service' in the get around section when there actually is not any
consider to make an intro to the do section
consider to inform about prices for some more of the restaurants
These points have been fixed now. Ord River is capitalised. Local bus rewritten. Prices added. Days corrected. Intro to the Do section will get revised later when I think of something better to write. (WT-en) Cardboardbird 10:19, 27 September 2010 (EDT)
Support An entirely unscientific reaction: this article really made me want to go there. (WT-en) Rezendi 19:56, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
Support, absolutely—beautiful article! The time has already passed for comments, so please feel free to promote the article to star status. A couple things I did catch, though:
1) Kimberley Fine Diamonds needs hours—best to call or shoot them an email to find out;
2) Personally, I would omit most email addresses (how often does one need to email a restaurant?) to save space. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:04, 1 October 2010 (EDT)
Thanks all for your help and support in getting this over the line. Very much appreciated. (WT-en) Cardboardbird 06:43, 10 October 2010 (EDT)
I've put effort in this article to try to make it qualify for star status. It must be the best guide on this area, far better than the available commercial guides. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 09:51, 12 July 2010 (EDT)
Very close - I think this is a very solid nomination. The info is good, the map is great, and there seems to be a solid number of listings. But there are a few small things which stop me from giving a full vote of support - forgive the nitpicking, but it's necessary:
The first, and really the most important one in my mind, is that many of the listings lack a proper amount of address info, just the street (I'll use Wat Chakrawat as an example, but there are others). I understand that a formal address may not exist (and even if it did, it might not be very useful in such a complex district), but surely there could be more info. Perhaps an intersection, or which two streets the place lies between? Something to give me a better idea of exactly where it's located.
Purely aesthetic, but when I opened the article I was struck by the solid wall of text in the introduction. Could we divide that into a couple more paragraphs? Just so it doesn't look so intimidating...
Two budget eat listings, Yen Ta Fo Je Hieng and Samrat, lack prices. Also, could we have one of those price range boxes in the Eat section, like the one you have in Sleep?
Texas Hotel lacks contact info and prices. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 17:43, 12 July 2010 (EDT)
Thanks for your input! Let me go at this case by case:
I've tried to add descriptions to some of the listings, if you're still unsatisfied, let me know which listings you'd like to be improved. Getting addresses is really a headache, I've really tried my best to find any I can, so descriptions will have to suffice (especially with the temples).
I moved a part of the introduction to "Understand" to make it feel a bit less intimidating. I hope that's okay.
I've added prices to the 2 restaurants and added the price range box.
I removed the Texas Hotel as it was added by someone else, but as far as I know it, I don't think its a great add anyway (and I cannot find contact details anywhere). --(WT-en) globe-trotter 19:48, 12 July 2010 (EDT)
The intro appears almost only to talk about Yaowarat and not about Pahurat. Maybe one or two sentences about Pahurat could be added
History: Teochew is the old spelling, should be replaced by Chaozhou
It appears a bit random whether the name of listings are written in Thai as well. It could be considered to add the Thai name for more listings
Are there no splurge restaurants in the district?
There must be somewhere in the district where you can have a drink or a beer?
Are there no splurge hotels in the district?, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 02:30, 18 July 2010 (EDT)
I'm with Claus on the consistency in Thai names, I know it's tricky since I tried searching for a few of them to have them added, with little luck - but if it all possible, that would be nice. One or two real drink listings would certainly be nice too. But none of those are really show stoppers if it isn't possible to add them, and there is already prose in the drink section... Oh, and nice work! --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann)talk 09:40, 18 July 2010 (EDT)
I've added a sentence about Pahurat in there (but it generally is the less visited and less interesting neighborhood of the two)
Changed it to Chaozhou
You're right that it seems a bit random. The idea I followed is: add it where I can find it. I don't speak Thai so for me its impossible to write it. For the ones listed, I got them from Google or Wikipedia. There's two ways to fix this: 1. get a Thai speaker to add them, or 2. remove them all. Or follow the path I did, Hiroshima also does not have all listings with Japanese characters.
There are no splurge restaurants, it is generally a quite "amateurish" neighborhood (as many other Chinatowns around the world)
I've roamed around a lot there, but they don't have bars in the traditional sense as most Westerners know it. That's why I added the coffee joints for some drinks, I wouldn't know what else to add there. I did elaborate a bit about Yaowarat's hawker stalls as that's where most people just get some iced chocolate or something.
Splurge hotels have the same explanation as splurge eateries — this is not a fancy district, so they don't exist. For that, people go to Sukhumvit or Silom.
For the Hiroshima article, it was agreed that the attractions in the "See" section should list the Japanese names and that it would be a good idea to do this for all foreign scripts. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 20:41, 21 July 2010 (EDT)
Well, I've spend the whole weekend finding my Thai friends and trying to get the Thai words for the attractions. Even many Thais have no idea how to write many of them, but I have managed to find all of the See section except for Wat Ga Buang Kim -- but this temple is so unbelievably small and unknown, the only way to find it is if I go back there to ask. I hope its okay now with the Thai scripts. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 12:49, 28 July 2010 (EDT)
Support. It's a fantastic article, with a beautiful map, and I'll enjoy turning Thailand pink on the map. I haven't yet had an opportunity to give it a close read, but will try to remember to do so—even after starring. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:11, 14 August 2010 (EDT)
Support It's an excellent article and it paves the road for the rest of Bangkok. (WT-en) jan 11:46, 25 August 2010 (EDT)
It is now over a month since the last comment, and there don't seem to be any unresolved problems. Go ahead and clap on the Star, Globe-trotter. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 03:53, 14 October 2010 (EDT)
Together with the district I've also created a walking tour article through the area, which is somewhat modeled after Along the Magnificent Mile. Let me know whether you think its star worthy. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 09:51, 12 July 2010 (EDT)
Support Nice article about a tour in a of-the-beaten track area. (WT-en) ViMy 12:12, 31 July 2010 (EDT)
Support. Another beautiful article, and a feather in the Bangkok guide's cap. I'll try to give a closer read when I have time to provide whatever copyediting help may be useful—even if after starring. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 22:13, 14 August 2010 (EDT)
Support. It looks like a busy day. One or two small things. It would be nice to know roughly the distance to be walked in each section. If this is mentioned, it is not obvious. There are also instances of unusual English usage. In general this does not bother me greatly, but I will try to sort out the more confusing ones where I can. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 14:28, 16 August 2010 (EDT)
A busy day indeed:) I will update the map in the following 2 weeks and add the distance to it. I'm also thinking of changing the direction a little bit so the route doesn't overlap at Soi Issaranuphap. What do you think of this? --(WT-en) globe-trotter 22:00, 9 September 2010 (EDT)
I cant find Soi Issaranuphap on the map, so can't comment on your suggestion. However I can recommend making the road names more legible, maybe put the numbers where they dont overlap the text. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:53, 11 September 2010 (EDT)
I've had a chance to do a careful read through of the article, and it's really one of the best in-shape star nominations I've seen. It's a really pleasant read through, and makes a really compelling case to put in the effort for the sweaty full day tour. The only cavil I have is with a couple turns of phrase duplicated in the district article, since readers will likely go over both articles when touring the area. I noted the two instances that I recognized.
Also, it's been well past the deadline for new comments, so please, by all means, add the stars to the articles! I'll be sure to light up Thailand on the stars map once you do. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 23:33, 12 September 2010 (EDT)
Oh, and I don't really know what barbecued prawns would be, but I think I'd eat the hell out of that! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 23:37, 12 September 2010 (EDT)
I think it's finally ready. I've put everything I can think of into this guide. It's very long, but there's really not anything left that can be split to the district articles. I would appreciate a very careful review, as I think this could be a model for other similar articles if the community decides it's worthy of the coveted star. (WT-en) LtPowers 21:49, 12 September 2010 (EDT)
Note: Please refresh the page before reviewing, as I've made some major changes recently and I don't want you to get caught by the caching bug. (WT-en) LtPowers 21:53, 12 September 2010 (EDT)
Support: It looks comprehensive, well written and well formatted. I have never been there so can make no judgement on accuracy. I could not read it all, my brain started to melt after a while, but I found no formatting, spelling or grammatical error in what I could manage. Disney is not my cup of tea, but this looks like a very good guide. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 15:54, 17 September 2010 (EDT)
Support. [imitating Lumiere from Beauty and the Beast] C'est magnifique. Congratulations on a job well done. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 12:34, 24 September 2010 (EDT)
Comment: considering the consternation that has arisen in the past over these articles, I would greatly appreciate further comments. The major question is whether this article is what we're looking for in our coverage of large tourist attractions? (WT-en) LtPowers 13:22, 24 September 2010 (EDT)
I don't see any reason why not. It may happen that some other place needs different treatment, but then we deal with it as it comes. You have set the bar high. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 15:43, 24 September 2010 (EDT)
Support - Still not a fan of the whole concept, but the article is complete, well written (save a bit commercialized for my taste) and most importantly it seems very complete, so support. —The preceding comment was added by (WT-en) Sertmann (talk • contribs)
Minor comment: Not too much bold in "Downtown Disney" item in Districts section of the main article? --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 14:53, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
Are you saying that you would prefer more bold, or less bold? (WT-en) LtPowers 17:09, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
Definitely less would be preferred. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 17:18, 28 September 2010 (EDT)
This dive site article has reached the stage where I think it meets the dive site criteria for Star. The article talk page contains a checklist for dive site article star criteria as used in the previous two star articles on dive sites. I would greatly appreciate any comments on what can be done to improve it, and any minor copyediting would also be good, as I have probably gone way past the blindness to small mistakes level by now. Cheers, (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:02, 11 October 2010 (EDT)
Support— I have gone over it, and added a small section on seacatfish, plus removed what typos and other minor mistakes I found. Just a question: Why Boulders Beach and not Pumphouse Gully? (WT-en) Seascapeza 06:07, 15 October 2010 (EDT)
Support. My only request would be to add a caption to Image:Sea squirt at Photographers Reef DSC05042.JPG, and to possibly copyedit the text in the "Get in" section a bit. "Get in" currently contains some sentence fragments ("Usually considered a boat dive.") and I had to re-read the second and third paragraphs a few times to understand the flow. Perhaps these two paragraphs would read better if they were combined into a single paragraph with some transitional text "... Either of these shore entry areas can be reached by driving through Simon's town...". Otherwise, this looks like yet another great article, and the maps are excellent. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 16:10, 17 October 2010 (EDT)
Done. There is now a caption on the image and Get in has been changed as you suggested. Thanks for the comments. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 02:19, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
Support. This is a relatively small reef, but well covered, and given my experience diving it (from both shore and by boat), there is nothing missing about its description, location, access, marine life, etc. (WT-en) G Zsilavecz 13:44, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
Three supports and no dissentions. All minor issues dealt with. Three weeks from last comment will be Monday 8th. If there is no further comment by then I will star it. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 01:12, 6 November 2010 (EDT)
This is the first Regional Dive Guide to reach a level where I think it can be nominated for Star. So far this has been virtually a single handed effort, including the proposed criteria for star status for this type of travel topic. It is breaking new ground, and needs a legitimacy check by the community, so please all take a look and see if there are any issues that should be resolved at this stage, as this will set the bar for future regional dive guides. There are explanations of my reasoning and choice of criteria on the article discussion page, which are recommended reading. Those who don't feel they can comment on an activity they don't participate in can look at the general Wikivoyage criteria for Star, such as language and formatting.
The third dive site sub-article was rated star on 12th November, so this requirement is now satisfied. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 12:06, 25 November 2010 (EST)
Support
with the following points to be taken into consideration:
under General Topography, perhaps include the name of the 'long ridge of sedimentary rock' that extends through False Bay?
I dont know a name for the ridge as a whole. The shallower area at the south end is known as Steenbras deep. Do you think this information is appropriate in this section, as there is not much detailed information on the other features? I will put it in anyway and see how it looks. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
I think it's better to put in a name, even if it's only for a section of said long reef. (WT-en) Seascapeza 02:27, 11 November 2010 (EST)
last paragraph of Upwellings: what does the water temperature have to do with the visilibity? You say the the upwelling can reduce visibility on the east side of the bay, and then: 'however...' which is when you talk about temperature. It doesn't make sense.
do you think you should explain what is considered the Atlantic side of the peninsula vs False Bay? Because strictly speaking it's all in the Atlantic.
I have added a short paragraph in the general topography section. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
I have changed the last paragraph of 'Water temperature' assuming that you meant that the bottom temperature in summer in the bay is colder than it is in winter, but this may have been a too-herois assumption. Is this correct? The bottom is actually colder in the summer?
According to my reference this is often the case. It is quite old and does not explain the cause. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
Well, well, well. I think finding out whether this is in fact correct would be very interesting, along with an actual explanation as to why that might be so, though not, strictly speaking, a necessary part of the article. (WT-en) Seascapeza 02:27, 11 November 2010 (EST)
then, under 'Habitats' I found this sentence: For many marine organisms the substrate is another type of marine organism, and it is common for several layers to co-exist
In my view, you have succeeded. (WT-en) Seascapeza 04:30, 11 November 2010 (EST)
under sandy substrates, do you need to define sessile organisms? Or provide a link?
I dont know. WT tries to minimise external links, but I am not keen to put too many definitions in the text. Do you think that the term is too unfamiliar, and that it will make much difference? (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
I do think it unfamiliar yes, so I would prefer to either replace or provide a very short definition in place if extermal links are a problem. :Seascapeza|Seascapeza]] 02:27, 11 November 2010 (EST)
under 'Respect' last paragraph of the diving rocky reefs sections -- perhaps, accurate and enjoyable though it is, it should be left out as not being encyclopaedic?
Wikivoyage is not an encyclopedia. I do not have to use NPOV, only to try to be fair. Do you think the statement is unfair or that the information is not useful to the traveller's understanding of the region? (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
under 'Diving on wrecks in South Africa', it seems to me you need a section detailing how mnay wrecks there are around Cape Town rather than using a general SA overview -- perhaps this section should be a link to another article on wrecks in South Africa, while the Diving on wrecks in Cape Town has more detailed information?
The general informatiuon is also in Diving in South Africa#Diving on Wrecks in South Africa, so I have deleted it from Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay and put in a more local explanation. I dont know if it is what you had in mind, so please take a look and let me know. Feel free to improve it. Cheers, (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 05:42, 19 October 2010 (EDT)
Under get help I would make 'in case of emergency' and 'find out' bigger fonts.. they are rather overwhelmed by the text as they are.
The only way I know of doing this is to use sub headings, which I have done. You are right, it does look better. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
n Cruise Sub Aqua under dive packages: are they the only operator who provides dive packages? Does this, perhaps, need expanding?
Not sure that dive packages is actually something we want, but also not sure exactly what they mean. This listing was originally posted by Cruise Sub Aqua. Any opinions? (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
maybe Cruise SubAqua could them selves explain, or else section can be deleted -- in my view it's not really providing anything of much use cos this isn;t really like Aliwal where you get a standard 'dive package and accommodation' (WT-en) Seascapeza 02:27, 11 November 2010 (EST)
I have taken the Dive packages subsection out an not particularly useful. I suspect they are more of a booking agent than an operator, inspite of claims to the contrary, in which case they dont get a listing anyway. If they disagree they are welcome to provide more information. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:24, 12 November 2010 (EST)
Good point, I will try to look them up. The problem is to try to get the legal ones. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
3 operators listed. It is not easy to find legitimate local operators as just about all the Gansbaai operators and booking agents list themselves as in Cape Town. If you know of others, please give details. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 05:42, 19 October 2010 (EDT)
should there be a subsection on the Scubapro Dive festival?
is it an idea to put the max'average depth of all sites in the thumbnails?
Yes, possibly even a good one. I will put them in over the next few days. Quite a big job. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
Bigger job than it looked. Very tedious, but I think it will be worth it in the end. Take a look and see if the formatting looks right. That is the easy part to change, the slow part is waiting for each site to open to get the data. However I am doing a few other improvements at the same time. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 07:09, 19 October 2010 (EDT)
Okay, that's as far as I have been able to get for this session, will continue from Camps Bay in due course.
(WT-en) Seascapeza 10:49, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
Thanks, several good points. Should keep me busy for a few hours. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:28, 18 October 2010 (EDT)
Okay, so my next lots of edits and views follow: Support I have continued editing the article and with respect to the See section, have only minor changes to make in general.
However, there are a couple of consistency issues which apply to the article overall:
Capitalization: I have altered and adapted in ways that seem to fit but in some respects have not been sure how to accomplish your aim. Fish Hoek Reef is mentioned, and then Fish Hoek reef. I changed Rockland point since Millers and Oatlands were both capitalised, but there should be consistency here.
It is the name of a dive site — I will use Fish Hoek Reef. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 15:55, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
Simon's Town, Miller's point, Simon's Bay etc. Is this accustomed usage? Because to me, Millers Point and Simonstown are the accepted usage. I have corrected one instance of Simons Town, since the bulk of the rest of the artucle seems to stick with Simon's Town, but it'd be worth making a decision on which form you wish to go with.
I use Simon's Town, Simon's Bay and Miller's Point which is how my Reader's Digest atlas of southern Africa spells them. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 15:55, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
I also checked the road signs, most use Miller's Point. SA Navy charts use Millers Point, Simon's Town and Simon's Bay. So I think the versions I have used are acceptable variations, and will stay with them. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 11:49, 24 October 2010 (EDT)
directions and winds: south-east or south east or South East? Or South east? All variants are present.
I have been changing directions to uncapitalised except if they are part of a place name. Obviously I have missed some. Let's also leave out the hyphens for consistency. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 15:55, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
dates, specifically of wrecks. 18th June or 18 June or June 18? All are present.
Aargh! Hadn't even though of that. Lets go with 18th June etc. I will change when I see them. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 15:55, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
Then, specifically, the description of Castle Rocks is a repeat of the Miller's Point description. Surely that should be changed?
Also, under offshore False Bay reefs, there is reference to Table Mountain sandstone and Cape Peninsula pluton -- should these be in italics?
Yes, I am using the italics there to identify that it is a specific name for the formation, not a place description. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 15:55, 22 October 2010 (EDT)
But, overall, wow. Great intro and overview. (WT-en) Seascapeza 05:26, 21 October 2010 (EDT)
SupportAlmost I've got two minor suggestions and one major one: there is a lot of text without accompanying images in the top half of this article, so it might be nice if the images could either be distributed a bit more evenly, or (better) if some of the images from the sub-articles could be brought into this region article. Second, for a star article the Wikipedia link should use the standard format, ie [[WikiPedia:Category:Marine Animals of the Cape Peninsula]] instead of the "Links to Wikipedia" formatting that it now uses. The major item that prevents full support is that there are several listings without full information - the cage diving listings lack descriptions, and while it might not be feasible to get prices for all of the listings, having at least a general range would be helpful. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:40, 26 October 2010 (EDT)
I will look into more pictures for the first half, but probably not from the sub-articles, and the images at present are placed where they are relevant.
There are a few more pictures now. Take a look and let me know if you think the balance is OK or if more or less would be better. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 10:41, 26 October 2010 (EDT)
I think I have sorted out your second point, but please check to make sure I understood you correctly.
Working on the listings, have mailed several of the listed businesses for the missing information, and will insert as it arrives. I intend to only put in prices for a local boat dive,and if I can, prices for a local shark cage dive, as it would be impracticable to list much more. Obviously these are only possible from providers which offer these services. In several cases there is no useful representative price - such as dry suit repairs, which though a very useful service, has little in the way of fixed prices. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 06:46, 26 October 2010 (EDT)
There are now prices for a local boat dive or shark cage dive where they are relevant and addresses etc. in almost all the listings. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 03:25, 29 October 2010 (EDT)
Full support from me - this is an amazing article and I've got no doubt it's got to be the best guide anywhere to diving in that area. -- (WT-en) Ryan• (talk) • 14:48, 21 November 2010 (EST)
Thanks for the update — and the vote of confidence — Cheers, •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 15:21, 22 November 2010 (EST)
Almost Support. This is an incredible wealth of information! I want to take the time for a more thorough read-through, but that will have to wait at least a week. For now, a few quick thoughts:
1. Enlarge the images. 250-280px is pretty standard, and this will do a lot to make the article less intimidating.
I would be very happy to do this. My interpretation of the MoS was that images should br kept small to minimise bandwidth usage for the travelling user in places where connectivity is marginal, and similarly to keep down the number of images. However if encouraged to add more and bigger I will be very happy to do so, It is more a matter of where to stop, so stop me if I go too far! -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 02:54, 27 October 2010 (EDT)
Images enlarged to 280px, and 360 for maps. Looks nice on my monitor -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 03:55, 27 October 2010 (EDT)
The page seems to load significantly slower now. I would appreciate comment from others if they have the same problem. Have I overdone the sizes or is it just general Wikivoyage slowness again? What is the load time like from off the beaten track? •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 03:25, 29 October 2010 (EDT)
Being in LA I'm definitely not "off the beaten track", but the first page load was 10+ seconds, and a reload was 1-2 seconds. I suspect slowness may be due populating caches on IB servers. Are you seeing significantly worse times? -- (WT-en) Ryan• (talk) • 13:49, 29 October 2010 (EDT)
The time seems to vary with time of day, but what seems to be happening is the basic page will load in about 10 seconds, with a few items remaining, and the last one may still be waiting 5 minutes later. (usually a map). •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 15:01, 29 October 2010 (EDT)
2. The main point of this article or any region(esque) article, beyond a general introduction, is navigation around the dive sites (sub-articles). Renaming the See section to "Dive sites" and moving it either to the top or just below Understand could make navigation through the sub-articles much more user-friendly. You could perhaps retain a see section at the bottom, but instead use it to highlight what exactly you can expect to see throughout the region, and perhaps which "subregions" would be best for which types of "sights." (Forgive me for being a little vague—I have zero knowledge of diving.)
I can do this, but when I started (see article talk page) was encouraged to try to comply with WT section heading conventions, which is how the dive sites got to be called "See" in the first place. I would very cheerfully go back to "Dive Sites" and move them up the contents listing, but I would like to hear other opinions on this. I may just plunge forward and make the change so anyone can see how it would look. — it can always be reverted if necessary... -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 02:54, 27 October 2010 (EDT)
The more I think about this the more I like it. I will put the lists of dive sites at the top as you suggest (just below Understand) and keep see for a small introduction to the marine biology and what you are likely to see in the region in general. The new look "See" may take a while to develop. Suggestions and comments invited (User:(WT-en) Seascapeza and User:(WT-en) Gzsilavecz particularly, please comment). -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 04:22, 27 October 2010 (EDT)
"Dive sites" now just after "Understand", and new "See" started, but needs work. Main components listed, but need fleshing out. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 06:14, 27 October 2010 (EDT)
New "See" section written. I have tried to keep it short and general, but can elaborate if necessary. Let me know. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 05:27, 29 October 2010 (EDT)
3. My last point is the main point of contention, and is a bit of a downer. There should be no outline sub-articles, in my opinion. I understand that is a very tall order, with a full 31 outlines remaining, of a massive 200+ articles. Generally, region articles (and I think region article status criteria are the best point of reference for judging this article) will break down their sub-articles further by creating subregion articles. I can see why you might want to avoid doing this for the dive sites, however. But the subregions would each need to be at guide status for their "parent region" (which would be the equivalent of this article) to reach star status. In turn, the sub-articles for each guide region would need to be at usable status. On the plus side, usable status is generally not too hard to reach. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 19:11, 26 October 2010 (EDT)
On the final point, though I agree that a minimum status of usable is highly desirable, there are practicality issues involved with dive sites which are less prevalent with surface destinations, in that in some cases it is not easy to get the information, as it can be difficult to physically get there to gather it (there are no references to look it up, and if you want a map, you have to go out and survey the site and draw the map yourself). The dive sites in question are generally less frequently dived, and often a bit difficult to get to, and in many cases to some extent seasonal, so it would probably take over a year and quite a lot of money and effort to go out and get the information personally. I have developed the ability to write up a site to usable on the basis of only a few dives, in some cases as little as one, for a small site, but most sites need a couple of dives to gather the required information, and it seems like there is no-one else around here with the skill or interest to do it. If there is consensus that it is necessary, I will do it, but the nomination would have to be shelved for a few months. That is the minor issue.
The major issue is that the bar will be set so high that it may be virtually impossible for any region with more than a small number of dive sites to reach star status, and that once getting there, they may not retain it for long, as the underwater environment even in popular regions with good weather a lot of the time, is largely unexplored, and if a new site is found, we would presumeably want it to be listed immediately, not wait until there is enough information to make the article "Usable". In any case, our editing policy allows anyone to add useful information, so if someone dives a site, likes it and wants to let the world know, it is quite legitimate to add that information to the relevant article. It would go against the grain to delete it just because the article is rated Star, and similarly would discourage editors if the article rating had to be downgraded. I am trying to encourage divers to write up sites in other parts of the world, and it is not easy to get guide quality information from casual recreational divers — even professionals can seldom provide a coherent description.
It is therefore my contention that a certain number or percentage of outline sub-articles should be tolerated in a star dive region article, particularly when there is exploration required to provide the information. To me this is better than the more practicable alternative of deleting the sub-article if there is too little information available, as that goes against the completeness of coverage criteria. One could make a case that the foreign visitor only needs to know about the more popular sites/destinations/attractions, but the counterclaim is that the local visitor should also be catered for, and in the case of diving in the Cape Town region, the local visitor is the main user.
On the breaking down of a region into sub-regions: The main article is on diving in the environs of a single city. It would be possible to break the article up into five logical subregion articles, or with a bit of fudging, four subregions, by including the single inland dive site with the nearest coastal sites. The split would be rather uneven though. This would also mean that the number of star and guide dive sites would have to be increased as they would not be evenly distributed in the sub-regions. The subregions are largely seasonal, and some are more difficult to access and only occasionally diveable. The offshore sites are generally only dived a few times a year, and the depth of the deeper ones means that you can only dive there for 10 to 20 minutes at a time. To get them up to star could take years, The cost is another issue — deep sites require helium mixes, which are expensive and not easily available.
I value your opinion as you have done great work on WT, and know the policies and customs far better than I do for the regular run of regions and destinations (I am very much a monomaniac regarding dive guides), but I would like to hear opinions from other WT users on this point, in the hope of getting a consensus which can mould future regional dive guides.
As someone said. "Perfect is the enemy of good enough" No article will ever be perfect, not even the stars. There is always something more to be said, and usually a lurking error everyone has missed. And then something will change... It is better to know how to reach good enough. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 02:54, 27 October 2010 (EDT)
Three more outlines have been upgraded to usable, and over the next few days I may be able to upgrade one or two more. After that I will have to dive each site to get the data. With luck I may be able to do half a dozen over the summer season, others maybe not. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 14:06, 28 October 2010 (EDT)
Hmm, you might have a bit higher standards for a usable dive guide than I would (again, acknowledging that I am totally clueless about diving!). Probably the closest equivalent article is a small town (and this is a rough equivalent), which would use the criteria: Has at least a Get in section and one Eat and Sleep listing each with contact information. At least the most prominent attraction is identified with directions. Eat and Sleep obviously are not part of the equation for a dive guide. I'm inclined to argue that all that is truly necessary for a dive guide to be usable is the get in information (how to get there + instructions on how to safely get into the water) and a rough idea of what there is to see. By that criteria, I would judge, say, SS SA Seafarer to be very much at usable status already. The main criterion of a usable article is that an adventurous person could use the article without recourse to other information sources, and this article satisfies that criterion.
Also, I really like the new see section! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 19:08, 4 November 2010 (EDT)
Peter, I am glad you like the new See section. I think the change and split of the old See into Dive sites near the top and the new See is a big improvement and addresses some old issues quite well. I can see room for development of the See section into a really useful section way beyond what it is at present, but that might require more Wikipedia links than usually approved on WT. We will just have to see what develops. (I am working albeit rather slowly, with Seascapeza and others on WP on marine life of the area, and it would not make sense to duplicate too much when a few links would do the job. Particularly as that side of things really is more encyclopaedic than a travel topic)
You may be right about the standards for usable. I must give this some thought. I will look at all the currently outline sites and try to hammer them into shape a bit more. Right now I am more busy with other work than I would prefer, and it may be a few days before I can really get down to it again. but at least I dived one of the outline sites last weekend and should be able to get that up to a good usable quite soon. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 15:13, 5 November 2010 (EDT)
Outlines back up to 19. Found one which was not on my list:-( •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 12:08, 26 November 2010 (EST)
Can I see the list? I have a hunch that I'd have no problems with your outlines. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 12:32, 26 November 2010 (EST)
Hi Peter, No problem, it is at User:(WT-en) Pbsouthwood/Dive sites The ones highlighted in orange are the outlines. The colour coding is pretty obvious after a cursory examination, except the magenta, which indicates a usable that is close to guide standard. I find the list very useful for keeping track of what still needs to be done (a lot). The ones that are still outlines are in my opinion not sufficient for an ordinary diver from a different region to use to dive the site, mainly on safety issues. There are a few sites that I have not personally dived yet, so I hesitate to call them usable in case they are not. I would have no problem with another diver rating them as usable if they have dived there, but this does not seem to be happening. Probably partly because the sites in question are the relatively obscure, less accessable, or less popular ones. Cheers, •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 13:31, 26 November 2010 (EST)
There are still 5 or so that are pretty empty, which I would recommend focusing on, just to get the bare minimum of information an adventurous, experienced diver would need to get out there. But as you are aware, the strict regionguide requirements aren't really designed to force status requirements on 100+ sub-articles, and thus don't work as well with this particular guide that does not follow the exact same organizational pattern. I'm more than happy to call this extraordinary guide a star article--you have my full support. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 15:28, 27 November 2010 (EST)
It is largely a matter of opportunity. Some of those sites are ones I have been trying to get to for years. Sometimes a site will bocome the in place for a few months and then no-one will go there for a few years, or no-one that I dive with, which in practicality comes to much the same thing, as I tend to dive with a few operators who are survey-friendly. I will get them all evenrually, but it is quite likely that some new ones will be done before I get all of the outlines filled in. I will also admit that a few I have just been too lazy to go and dive, and I hope to get those sorted this summer. Anyway. I am happy to get your support and will now go and put a star on the site with a feeling of great satisfaction.
Support Okay. I have finally finished going through the whole article and have edited for small formatting/grammatical errors as I have gone along. Only a very few questions remain, namely:
in the Eastern False Bay section, the introduction heading you have Intro to diving blah blah all in bold, but the 'from Gordons Bay to Hangklip' in regular font. Why?
No idea, I will have a look. It is quite probably a common or garden formatting inconsistancy. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:24, 12 November 2010 (EST)
Yup, thats what it seems to have been. Now all bold, like the other equivalent sections. You missed the lower case letter following a full stop! (also corrected) •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:24, 12 November 2010 (EST)
if you have a look at the description of Rooi-els point, from the description, it doesn't sound like it actually is a dive site. Is it? Or is it just where one would expect a dive site to be?
I have dived there, it is aplace where people have dived. It may not be particularly popular or well known, but I think it qualifies as a site, and is the sort of place somone might well look at from the shore and wonder what it is like, and try to look it up. I am trying to be as inclusive as reasonably possible, but that is just my preference, there is no rule saying it must be so. Others may disagree, and I am open to debate. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:24, 12 November 2010 (EST)
I read the thumbnail, and see what you mean, but the explanation above still applies, it is the sort of place you look at from the road and wonder what is there. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:24, 12 November 2010 (EST)
Finally, I am not sure how to solve the story on wrecks section. I like what you have done with the overall section as an overview of wrecks and obviously you have to include wrecks in 'See', but maybe the overall section on wrecks should go closer to the beginning?
Where? The only place nearer to the beginning would be in 'Understand', but then there would be three subsections dealing with wrecks? •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:24, 12 November 2010 (EST)
On balance though, I say, why not Star status now? (WT-en) Seascapeza 04:30, 11 November 2010 (EST)
Why not indeed. I would like a final comment on the number of outline sites from Peter Fitzgerald, as that is possibly the only outstanding issue. I have reduced them as much as I am likely to in the next month or so, and will probably have to visit the rest before I can significantly upgrade them. This will be done in time, but some can probably not be done until next winter, so I need a consensus on how many are tolerable. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:24, 12 November 2010 (EST)
Also waiting on recheck by Ryan. I think all the issues he brought up have been sorted, but would like confirmation. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 06:37, 13 November 2010 (EST)
(WT-en) Peter now also supports, and since there are no outstanding issues and more than 2 weeks have passed since the last issue was listed, I will promote the article to star. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 11:13, 28 November 2010 (EST)
After the successful Yaowarat and Pahurat nomination, now another district of Old Bangkok: the popular backpacker hideout Khao San Road. Please leave your comments with possible improvements and additions! --(WT-en) globe-trotter 12:26, 4 January 2011 (EST)
Nice to see a nomination up again after a bit of a lull. I will try to work my way through and comment as I go along.
The map. Is the whole map supposed to refer to the Khao San Road, or just the little inner box on the actual road. If the latter, I suggest adding a blowup of the inner map for clarity. The existing map remains of value as context, possibly with a different label.
Buy/Books/Ton's booksellers: I wouldnt categorise English-language fiction as general knowledge
Eat: leader paragraph: "Many nationalities of travelers attend the road, therefore many kinds of ethnic food can be found here." does not read well, and is slightly ambiguous.
Eat: leader second paragraph: "Street carts on the road sell decent pad thai (fried noodles), quail eggs, roti (like a pancake), falafel, hummus, various bugs and some sell just cocktails. (various bugs?)•••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 02:36, 7 January 2011 (EST)
There is no splurge section in Eat. I assume this is because there are no splurge eateries. Perhaps a word in the leader paragraph for that section to this effect would be appropriate?
I have made a series of small edits for grammar, spelling etc, and have changed a bit of unconventional idiom. I will continue to do this as I get the time. Anything you dont like, change back or to something better. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 05:30, 7 January 2011 (EST)
Bars and pubs: Tak Sura or Taksura? both are used.
Support Only the inner map is a little over packed with hints and should be enlarged (see Peter above). I only found one minor mistake (AM/PM). The Buy section is small but thats imho a welcome change to the overly filled other articles. The way from the boat to the KSR is not always easy to find for first time visitors. It took me some time to orientate on my first visit... (WT-en) jan 05:26, 7 January 2011 (EST)
Thanks for both of your comments! I'll reply on each of them:
It is a bit unclear, but I am not sure how else to do it. The whole map refers to Khao San Road District, which includes Khao San Road and the area around it. The smaller inset is just a blown up version of just the road itself, because there are so many listings on just that road. Maybe I could try to include the inset onto the big map, but I wasn't sure if it would still fit.
I have rephrased it, hope its better now.
Also rephrased it, please check.
Yes, bugs, as in insects are sold in carts along Khao San Road! You're right that it seems not entirely clear from the sentence how weird this actually is :P How could I better phrase it? It is already mentioned in the Eat section of the main Bangkok article, so i didn't want to duplicate it too much.
You are absolutely right. I really tried my best to find one, but Mayompuri and Aquatini are the two most luxury restaurants of the district, and it would be totally off to call them "splurge".
Thanks, I appreciate it!
Fixed.
And to jan:
Thanks for the AM/PM fix, of course it had to be 1AM!
The Buy section is so short, as pretty much all you can list are book shops. Other fun things to buy, such as clothes and accessories, are at the markets on the street, which cannot easily be cut in listings. Other shops, including tailored clothes, silver/gem shops and even travel shops, are very bad buys and should not be recommended.
The inner map is overpacked because those are just pointers to the enlarged map right under it. Will try to incorporate both into one image, or I'll think of something else in the following days.
Whew, I hope that cuts it for now:) --(WT-en) globe-trotter 13:21, 7 January 2011 (EST)
Hi Globetrotter:
The maps look better already. How about either appending the expanded detail map to the bottom of the main map, or alternatively adding the relevant part of the legend to the separate detail map. In both cases the blue rectangle stays on the main map, and you take out all the crowded icons from the middle of the blue rectangle, and put on a label indicating that there is a detail map, like "See detail map". Main map should have title indicating it is the whole district, and detail map (surprise) gets title indicating it is a detail map.
Much better.
Also much better.
OK, does not sound very appetising, but I admit to bias bordering on phobia on this count.
I now incorporated the small map into the big map. It unfortunately obscures a little of the Samsen area, but I couldnt make it different. What do you think? --(WT-en) globe-trotter 08:17, 8 January 2011 (EST)
I changed the map to what I was suggesting, with the expanded inset at the bottom. It works OK for me, but feel free to revert or modify if you dont like it or can think of improvements. I also uploaded the modified svg. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 10:21, 8 January 2011 (EST)
Well thats what I tried to do, but as usual the new map does not appear in spite of assorted cache purges. It will probably eventually display, but you might have to click on whatever comes up to see the changes. I seem to get a random choice of two old versions when I look at the page. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 10:32, 8 January 2011 (EST)
Ah yes. This could work, but there is a Wikivoyage Press print version coming up and that one requires the map to have the dimensions of 1709×3008 pixels. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 11:18, 8 January 2011 (EST)
The new map is beautiful! Could you make one little aesthetic change though? The word "laundromat" from Wearever Landromat lines up perfectly with the round part of the R in Samsen Road, creating a little optical illusion that it says "Laundromato". If you moved one or the other label around a little, I'm sure we could eliminate that... (WT-en) Texugo 23:48, 8 January 2011 (EST)
Support. Great article, well written, displaying a profound familiarity with the area, and there is very little to quibble about. But quibbles anyway:
It seems that it takes less time to take the A2 from the airport than to take a taxi on the tollways?
Are there hours for Phra Sumen Fort? --(WT-en) PeterTalk 13:34, 11 January 2011 (EST)
It's hard to say, because the travel time can vary greatly between 40 minutes and 1,5 hours (or even longer in rush hour). It all depends on the amount of traffic jams. With the bus I usually make it in 45 minutes outside of rush hour. Taxi is also about 45 minutes without any traffic jam, so I'll match them.
The fort can only be looked at, it's not allowed to enter the fort. Most see Phra Sumen Fort from Santichaiprakarn Park, which opens between 5AM-10PM daily, as stated. But I did not include those hours, because when the park closes, it can still be seen from Phra Athit Road (and is illuminated from there).
Some sort of laziness, I think, held me off from making this nomination, but I'm very confident that the article is up to snuff, with a collection of 4 star districts and 8 guide districts (probably all of which would likewise pass a starnom if nominated!) under its belt. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 20:35, 9 January 2011 (EST)
Almost Very good article. Just some minor things:
The colours of Upper Northwest and Georgetown in the map are very hard to separate
The district the Mall seems to have the same colour as the forestial parts of D.C.
Picture of Ethiopian food in the buy section and box in the Eat section. I suggest both should be in Eat and maybe something else should go in the Buy section
Embassy list is pretty long. Maybe three rows?
Excellent work and sorry to raise details. Regards, (WT-en) jan 04:42, 10 January 2011 (EST)
The colour coding of the district map is a bit confusing in places. There are 4 colours in the key, but significantly more on the map. The area USG is presumably part of the city, but is not mentioned in the district key, and the colour is not apparently compatible with the key, unless at a stretch, it is part of Downtown, which seems unlikely. Colour for The Mall is also a bit far off the key.
The grey areas are presumably not part of the city. The straight borders are presumably the extent of DC, with the river as the other border. It would be helpful (to me at least) to label the surrounding areas, as they appear to be urban areas.
Get around/By Metro, last para: "Remember that absolutely no food or drink is allowed on trains or in stations. Metro employees, police officers, and even fellow riders will ask you to dispose of any food before entering. Violators are subject to fines or even arrest." Surely this refers only to open food or drink? Otherwise you would not be able to use the Metro to go home with your groceries. If this is the case it is bizarre and probably unprecedented in public transport.
Both #1s: Districts on map: I grouped districts together to address SONORAMA's concern that the list was too long as to be overwhelming. Displaying the groupings on the map with similar colors was based on the presentation at Chicago#Districts. I definitely like having the districts grouped the way they are in the reionlist template, but maybe I could tweak the colors on the map to make it easier to read? I gave the USG area (military) a different color (the standard building color) because it cannot be visited. I'll try and make this more intuitive too.
Jan's #2: National Mall coloring: The difficulty here is that we have created a district article for a National Park. The map is using the national park color, rather than another district color. I realize that's a little confusing at first, but still think it's the better way to present the information.
Peter's #2: Label bordering areas: Good idea, will do.
Jan's #3: Eat pictures: The problem here is lack of space—I want to keep both images, but it's more important that the Ethiopian dining infobox be grouped with the eat section than the pictures.
#4: Embassy list:I have a 15.6 inch display on my laptop, and have ads turned off, but even still I couldn't display three columns of embassies without making each listing two or three lines (instead of one, currently). The main problem is just that D.C., I think, has the largest quantity of embassies in the world. What I would really like to do would be to make the list collapsable, so that you would need to click a + as with the table of contents, but I don't believe this is currently possible.
Support - Having just taken a trip to D.C. (restoring sanity and/or fear!), I can attest to the usefulness of this guide - I never had to look at anything else! Outside some of the suggestions already made here, I can't see any major improvements that have to be made. I really don't think the Embassy list could work as three columns - and I'm on a widescreen computer. As for the map; I think the colors are fine and I like that the Mall is that dark green color (it helps it really stand out), but I agree that the bordering towns should be labeled - in fact, I wouldn't stop with the towns; how about water features? More of the roads? North arrow? Scale? More like that killer San Francisco districts map you made. Outside of that, I can't think of anything else, though the picture of food in the Buy section does feel a little odd... (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 21:19, 11 January 2011 (EST)
In Get around/By Metro, price is given as "fares cost $1.95-5." Does this mean price range is $1.95 to $5.00? it is not immediately obvious. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 03:53, 12 January 2011 (EST)
This article is setting a new standard on Wikivoyage, and reading it is very enjoyable. Took me a while to get through it, but I still found some small things that might need a change:
In the See section, The International Spy Museum and the National Portrait Gallery are first clarified as being in the National Mall, then in the next paragraph they come up again being a part of the East End. This means they are mentioned twice, and it is not really clear where to find them.
The Millenium Stage, should that really be listed under festivals? I always figured festivals would be like yearly or semi-yearly events, but this one is held daily at 6PM.
The "shops in Georgetown" picture does not really seem to match the Learn section it is placed in. Same goes for the food picture in Buy, but that was already discussed.
"Hands free devices are permitted, but if you get pulled over for another violation while using one, expect a hard line from the police." Why would police give you a hard line while hands free devices are permitted? That does not seem to make sense.
In the Stay safe/Security section, the last paragraph suddenly starts about parks? I find that paragraph a bit odd as it does not seem to have anything to do with security.
Again, I'm not sure there is much to be done about this, aside from perhaps cutting one of the Ethiopian or Salvadoran food pictures, which I'd prefer to not do.
While legal, the police are sick of dealing with drivers who have ran red lights, caused accidents, etc. because they were distracted by their hands-free phone. (The government studies have shown the hands-free devices to be just as distracting as a traditional hand held, so the laws don't really match the reality.) I've tried to clarify this.
I don't know, I kind of like this as an aside, to allow the reader to decompress after dealing with the unpleasantries of security issues. But if you think it should be moved to Do, I suppose that would be fine. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:00, 12 January 2011 (EST)
Districts map ideas
I've mocked up four versions of the districts map, to see what people think: 1) is similar to the existing one, but has main roads named, bordering cities, etc.; 2) is without road names; 3) has color regions placed both above and below the street grid; and 4) has color regions only below the street grid. Looking at them together like this, I think I like 3 best. (These images aren't rendering well for some reason, but that won't be an issue when I upload an individual, final version.) --(WT-en) PeterTalk 15:30, 13 January 2011 (EST)
I prefer #3 as well; the color scheme is nice and clear, whereas it becomes fainter under the mass of streets in #4. Though I'd still like to see a north arrow and a scale.:) (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 15:38, 13 January 2011 (EST)
Ah right, I forgot those but will certainly include them in a final version! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 17:41, 13 January 2011 (EST)
I guess its time to nominate the next dive site article for Star. This is actually the first site that I completed surveying, and it has a relatively complete map. It is also the site that originally inspired me to write dive site guides for the Cape Town region. I started diving at Percy's in 1883 1983 and have dived there more than 100 times over the years, though not much recently. I have just gone through the article and found a few places that needed clarification, so have done that. I am fairly confident that the description is sufficiently complete, but need the outsider's perpective to illuminate my blind spots. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 12:06, 25 February 2011 (EST)
Since 1883! Wow, you're old! (WT-en) texugo 03:34, 4 April 2011 (EDT)
Thank you for those kind words. After that comment, I can't even correct the typo or people will think you have lost your marbles. 1983 it should have been. At least someone has read the notice, now I just have to hope somone reads (and comments on) the article. Cheers, •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 01:42, 6 April 2011 (EDT)
You can just cross it out and correct it like this: 1883 1983:) (WT-en) –sumone10154 17:30, 6 April 2011 (EDT)
Thanks, sometimes one needs to be reminded of these little details. Cheers, •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 03:59, 8 April 2011 (EDT)
Support, although I have a few questions/comments. The "Back to" link at the bottom of the page seems a bit odd - is it necessary and/or consistent with the other dive guides? Also, there are a handful of sentence fragments scattered throughout the article, and I wasn't sure if this was a stylistic choice or an oversight - for example, under "Facilities" it reads "Paved parking bay on seaward side of the road (R44). Sometimes crowded in the Kreef (Rock lobster) season but usually adequate". Finally, the pictures are great and I wouldn't remove any of them, but the large number makes for an odd page layout. Would it make more sense to use a <gallery> tag for the wildlife photos, or some other layout to present this better? With all that said, great job on another excellent dive article. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 21:45, 9 April 2011 (EDT)
I use a "Back to" link to reteurn to the sub-section of the main article that the link to the sub-article is from. This is useful because the main article is very long, and a bit of a hassle to find your way back to the area you were last examining. This is used consistently in all dive sites of the Cape Peninsula and False Bay articles for this reason. It was acceptable in the previous three Star nominations.
Sentence fragments are a hangover from the book that this was originally intended to be. Style has changed a bit since then, but not altogether updated. I will look into it.
I will consider a sub-sub-article with a gallery, as I used one in the first Star divesite after it was suggested by other Wikivoyagers. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 00:58, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
I think that having a column of pictures running the entire length of an article and well beyond the text is a sign that there are too many images period, per our minimal use of images policy. To my knowledge, using galleries is not a sanctioned practice around here anyway. I'd say you just need to cut out some of the images.
Also, rather than the "Back to" link at the bottom, couldn't you just use the IsPartOf template to have the breadcrumb navigation include that link? (WT-en) texugo 22:26, 9 April 2011 (EDT)
Looks useful, and must be acceptable policy to have made it in a Star article. I will try re-arranging to suit.•••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 01:02, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
I just loaded Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Percy's Hole using Safari for mac and Firefox for mac and it looks good on both. The prior edit with the image list running to the bottom had display issues and was not wrapping with the {{starnomination}} template. I tried a preview using a different template in substitution and it did the same. (I only tried the substitution in Safari for mac browser). (WT-en) Pbsouthwood's recent rearrangement does not have any such issues. Nice article... -- (WT-en) felix 03:21, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
The addition of the image gallery is not displaying well for me. The vertical flush right runs down a little into the See section and then there is an unfortunate big white expanse with a messy intersection with the horizontally configured additional image display. The images themselves are very nice though and my personal view is that the article benefits from them. Hope this assists. -- (WT-en) felix 03:38, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
The images have been re-organised using small galleries as in the Singapore article. I had not seen (WT-en) felix's comments, and these may have been from before I finished the edits. It took some time to iron out the bugs, but I think those problems have been solved as they dont show on IE on my monitor. I will check on Firefox and Chrome for Windows. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 05:15, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
Hi Peter, rather oddly the horizontally displayed image galleries containing more than 3 images are not diplaying normallly nor are they wrapping. The outcome is that they jut or ingress into the banner ad area on the RH side of the browser window. In the case of both my Safari for mac and Firefox for mac page loads the page does not auto 'set' to cover that area so the 4th image is partially hidden and disappears out of the browser window requiring a scroll right to see it. I assume the embedded html is not sufficiently instructing the browser for display page width. (Note that my advert banner display prefs are set to off). Normally my browsers will not show this content area by default even if I widen out the window to full screen width. I have done a reload of both browsers and a cache clear and it repeats so I guess it is enduring. 3 images are OK even if the browser window size is reduced, they do not wrap but the display characteristics are normal to those I expect to see if I reduce a window width. I have not reset my prefs to displaybanner ads to see if the problem remains. Maybe this is a normal display characteristic but I do not recall seeing it before, however maybe I have just not noticed it. Grouping in a max of 3 images wide would appear to be the solution. I have not checked it on a cellphone or pda type device. Nice images, makes me feel like going for a swim but it is nightime now. cheers -- (WT-en) felix 06:45, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
Sorry Peter I should have also mentioned that the (big white expanse) issue I referred to before was indeed from before you finished the edits and that issue is no longer apparent, only the 4th image problem mentioned above. -- (WT-en) felix 06:56, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
No problems in display on Firefox and Chrome for Windows. I do have a wide screen though I usually view on a slight zoom at 125%. The problem you are having I can duplicate if I make the window narrow enough. The question now is, do I go to gallery width of 3 images, which is very narrow on my screen and makes double rows in placed, or stay with 4, which looks much better on my screen. I guess it should display well on the average laptop, so can somebody check for me which width works well on a laptop, as I dont have one. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:59, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
I have decided to just go with the 3 image width and rearranged the images to suit. This should give best all round appearance as approprite for a star nomination. I have also upgraded the map with routes, logo and a few formattig improvements. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 09:17, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
I am currently working on a 15" laptop as my 17" has a dead video processor. My (much older) 15" laptop is my back up and being an older machine the screen res is a lot lower, this also creates more fit problems however that screen size and resolution is possibly a good real world baseline. Your change to 3 wide still does the same thing with the ad banner area ingress but is virtually unnoticeable without actually looking for the problem. It looks and feels good and when reducing the browser window width the entire article wraps in a much nicer and more fluid way. The 4 wide was not actually a problem if my browser window was dragged out to a decent width as it will fit the 4 images. However a lot of people are using much smaller screens especially when travelling, also I often set the browser window a bit narrower if I am running other stuff in the background and I think a lot of other people may do that as well. I think you have done the right thing going to 3 wide, better to have a bit of white space over on the RH side of the page than any strange indenting into the ad banner area.
There seems to be another small problem now. The edit click points for all of the Understand sub-headings are lining up together. They are in a horizontal group of 5 and the group is flushed right and run up to the images. Same thing on both browsers and it seems they follow the images in position rather than the typography. Indeed the [edit][edit] [edit] [edit] [edit] aligns with the top left hand corner of the image captioned "View of the entry gully from the cliff on the north side." Seriously reducing the browser window width will make them independently wrap with one or two of them of them moving down the page, however even crushed up to absolute minimum width three of them still cluster together, on max window width there are 5 clustering together. It seems odd and as it is happening on both Safari and Firefox (for mac) then it is either some strange Mozilla thing (the two browsers are related at a low level) or something else is up. Aside from that the article looks great and it surely must be getting this star pretty soon. -- (WT-en) felix 12:47, 24 April 2011 (EDT)
That's a MediaWiki bug; you can see it, not infrequently, on Wikipedia and other wikis. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:32, 25 April 2011 (EDT)
I get that all the time on IE. Wikipedia and Wikivoyage. Its a bit of a pain as it can take some time to find the right one. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 04:22, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
Yes I get it sometimes both on WT and WP and it is a pain but I was not sure if it was something in the markup that set it off. I did not realise it was X-platform (mac and PC), rather I assumed it was something that arose from and incompatibility with the specific browsers used on macs. This article must be ready for the star by now surely. Support from me for what ever it's worth. I was glad to read the Baboons were dealt with. Did not imagine they had a lot of effect on diving but I guess I should get out more. -- (WT-en) felix 14:31, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
Baboons can be a serious nuisance in the southern Cape Peninsula, where tourists have gotten them accustomed to handouts, and they have now learned to open car doors and help themselves. They hang out in gangs and are always on the lookout for easy pickings. Leave your car open at some places, and you may find it looted with contents strewn around the road. At Rooi-els they have learned to break into unoccupied houses, but not yet cars. We are not able to persuade them that divers dont carry anything worth stealing, because they can smell that it is not true. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 16:51, 27 April 2011 (EDT)
Support. As ever, love your work Peter.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:27, 27 April 2011 (EDT)
It has been a month and no more comment, so I guess I will slap on the star. Thanks to everyone for the comments, as usual they have all helped to improve the article. Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 07:35, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
It was suggested to me that Menzies is close enough to star status to nominate. I've put in all the info I have and would really appreciate someone passing an fresh set of eyes over it to pick up anything I've missed. Oh, and you can support the starnom if you like too. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 09:39, 17 June 2011 (EDT)
Support. This is a really nice little article for an intriguing little destination. My concerns have already been addressed, and to my eye, this looks ready for a star! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 16:16, 17 June 2011 (EDT)
Support (subject to 2 comments). Interesting OtBP destination, and it is great that we get articles about such relatively unknown places up to Star quality. Two comments: how about a Stay safe section, with the usual outback warnings? And does a bus really never, ever pass through? The Menzies Shire website mentions a bus run by Goldrush Tours. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:36, 17 June 2011 (EDT)
I was told the bus was not running anymore but now I see they have a current website, so maybe it is. I will give them a call on monday to confirm that the bus still goes, but I put the listing in for the meantime. Added stay safe. It is similar to what's covered in the region article but specific to Menzies and worth repeating. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 11:17, 19 June 2011 (EDT)
Support. A splendid guide - I enjoy reading about these tiny neck-of-the-woods places, and this article is full of wonderfully descriptive info. Two minor pointers: firstly, it'd be nice if the pictures were spread out a little bit more, like having the Niagara Dam picture in the Niagara Dam section and one of the Lake Ballard pics in the Lake Ballard section. Secondly, the Menzies Roadhouse has been labeled the Caltex Roadhouse in the map, not sure which one is accurate (granted, it's the only restaurant in town, but consistency is always nice). Neither of these points are major enough to stop my support, but it would be nice to see them addressed. Other than that, looks fine to me. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 02:01, 19 June 2011 (EDT)
I've moved the last two images to align with the relevant text. On my screen the photo of the hill at Lake Ballard is pushed down. Others might see something different. Changed the name to Caltex in the listing which is the official name, but if I recall it has Menzies roadhouse on the sign and the shire website lists it as the Menzies Roadhouse. Maybe I should change it back and fix the map? - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 11:17, 19 June 2011 (EDT)
You could also just put the alternative name (which I guess here is "Menzies Roadhouse") in the alt section of the listing, that would probably take care of it. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 22:18, 19 June 2011 (EDT)
Support. A few minor comments below, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 03:38, 19 June 2011 (EDT)
Get in: The reference to Kalgoorlie, should it be to Kalgoorlie-Boulder? And why not wikilinked?
A few of the listings do not have addresses, if possible please add
Menzies Hotel: as this appears to be the only hotel in town, I would prefer to have a listing in Sleep and then leave out any mention except references from Eat and Drink (and a corresponding change on the map)
Kalgoorlie name/link changed. Nothing seems to have a street number in town (maybe because everyone knows where they are) but I put some street names in there anyway. The Menzies Hotel, despite the name, is probably more of an attraction as a place to drink. I honestly think few people actually stay there. The owners were a bit befuddled when I asked how much the rooms were. I'd like to see it stay in Drink, but I'm open to other views. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 11:17, 19 June 2011 (EDT)
The information about the hotel above might be relevant to put into the article, especially if it means that the only hotel in town does not really work as a hotel anymore, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 11:35, 19 June 2011 (EDT)
Added some extra info about the uncertainty of rooms at the Menzies Hotel. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 11:33, 24 June 2011 (EDT)
Comment. Thanks for inserting the bus service details. Reading again, I think it is normal for a Star article to have an attention grabbing paragraph in the opening blub. Thus far there is nothing in the Menzies article other than the standard sentence saying where it is.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:29, 19 June 2011 (EDT)
Excellent work. Unequivocal support from me.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 02:05, 25 June 2011 (EDT)
Support. Menzies hotel: The sentence "You can stay at the rooms might look worn out and dated if you care about décor, but they are your only option for a bed." could use some work. A more intelligible version exists under "Sleep", so it should probably just be deleted from the "Drink" sectiom. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:29, 26 June 2011 (EDT)
Support. The only thing is that I had a hard time reading this sentence: "The well preserved heritage buildings' unconventional histories impart fascinating stories of the town's fickle fortunes that, along with the peculiar modern sculptures at Lake Ballard, make an intriguing destination for the inquisitive traveller." But it could be just me not being a native speaker. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 11:25, 26 June 2011 (EDT)
No, it is hard to follow. Partly it's the overuse of the "(adjective)(noun)" construction (seven times in one sentence!), but it also has jumbled structure making it unclear what the antecedents of various phrases are. I was going to take a stab at re-writing but it's going to need more than just cosmetic help, so I thought I'd let CardboardBird have a chance first. (WT-en) LtPowers 20:10, 26 June 2011 (EDT)
Thanks for the first shot at rewriting. I made changes that I hope are an improvement. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 10:31, 27 June 2011 (EDT)
Three weeks have passed and I'm travelling for the next two. I'm staring this now before I go. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 09:08, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
This is a really neat OtBP literary destination in between St Petersburg and Moscow—the little summer getaway for the Dostoevsky family, where Mssr Fyodor Mikhailovich wrote The Brothers Karamazov. Our guide, based on the Russian version + a ton of research I just did (takes 4x as long to find stuff on the ru-net, whew!), is over three times the length of any others I can find, with much more exhaustive coverage of the city. This would be our first Russian star article, although I have another one in my back pocket! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 00:54, 17 June 2011 (EDT)
Support. Really sweet little article with PF's usual stamp of quality written all over it.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:28, 17 June 2011 (EDT)
Support. Fantastic stuff - colorfully descriptive, but also pragmatic and honest. Scanning the article I can't find anything off, with the exception that I'm not sure if the Balneological Resort listing should have hours or not (if you say no then I'll take your word for it). But other than that, looks perfect! (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 02:20, 19 June 2011 (EDT)
Nitpick of course, but have we decided to allow datestamps to listings "valid as of year ...."? I mean hotel price for Hotel Polist: "1600 rubles (2009)". --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 05:41, 19 June 2011 (EDT)
Almost. A few comments below, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 11:28, 19 June 2011 (EDT)
sanitoriae: should it be sanatoriums?, which I would expect to be the most common English form
map: See and Do no 7 and 9 should break in the same way
times: should be 12-hour format and no decimals if not required
See and Do: I do not like the combination of see and do into one section, it makes it more difficult to understand which activities the town offers. Further, I thought our standard headings were mandatory
Sanitoria, actually!
I am not sure I understand?
While somewhat controversial, it had once seemed that we had something approaching a consensus to allow the 24 hour format for regions in which it is used (and in Russia it is used categorically), and thereby follow the changes made to the spelling policy. As such, we have already starred articles with the 24 hour format.
It is a mess to have different ways to show hours in different countries. I read the discussion, and clearly no consensus was reached, and our policy was therefore not changed. Yes, we have a starred article using the 24 hour format (which ought to be changed), but we have several starred articles outside US using the 12 hour format. However, this is details to be discussed elsewhere. The important thing here is that the article is in non-compliance with a clear policy, and in my opinion this is not acceptable for a star article
I read the discussion and see that it was agreed to allow a combination of the sections for Walt Disney World/Hollywood Studios, which I guess makes sense for this very special article. However, no consensus was reached to allow combinations of sections in general, and our policy was not changed. If the combination is acceptable for Staraya Russa, I guess it will be for most of articles for smaller places. I find it strange to name a section See and Do, when it does not include any activities. Further, why do we want to hide for the reader that no activities exist? But again, this is details to be discussed elsewhere. The article is in non-compliance with a clear policy, and in my opinion this is not acceptable for a star article, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 00:03, 20 June 2011 (EDT)
The article is not "in non-compliance with a clear policy" regarding the combination of article headers. That discussion did not pertain only to WDW, and such combinations are used in numerous articles when it makes sense to do so. We clearly had a consensus to allow such headers, your assertion to the contrary has no basis. Anyway, I will simply slush this. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 00:34, 20 June 2011 (EDT)
As the slushing was a bit hasty, I'm restoring this. Our Star requirements specifically say "It follows the manual of style exactly or is the exception that proves the rule." That means we can award the star to articles that do not match the MOS exactly if we have a good reason to allow deviations. In my opinion, the unresolved nature of certain style standard details ought not derail an otherwise outstanding article from being starred. (WT-en) LtPowers 22:01, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
Great to see the article back here. Hope it will end up with a star. However, I think the article could be improved by changing the two areas where it is not in compliance with our policies. It is correct that deviations from MoS is acceptable if some specific reasons make that needed, but I do not see that being outside US and being small are sufficiently exceptional to warrant a deviation. I think we are moving in the wrong direction if any discussion of possible change of policy should imply that both the existing and the proposed changed policy are equally acceptable for star articles. I think that until a new policy has been discussed and approved in the relevant talk page (which is not here) and the policy is changed, the existing policy should be applied to, unless the destination is so special that a deviation is needed (which is not the case here). The discussion of whether the present weaknesses of the article is sufficient to hold it back from getting the star can easily be avoided by simply improving the article as suggested, and I am really struggling to see why such improvements should not be made, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 09:50, 22 June 2011 (EDT)
Are you suggesting a blank Do section? If not, what would you like to see listed there? (WT-en) LtPowers 12:22, 22 June 2011 (EDT)
I'll change the international standard back to AM/PM if it makes others happy, although I think the grounds for this objection are very weak. For a full year in the linked discussion, there were plenty voices of support for a policy change, and only one voice against. Sheki was starred under those circumstances.
The argument that a combined "See and Do" header is "in non-compliance with a clear policy" is so obviously baseless that I feel fully comfortable ignoring it and proceeding with the starring process. I would, though, like to understand why you think this is a clear policy, where you have read this, and why you think both practice and consensus would not determine our procedures. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:09, 22 June 2011 (EDT)
A combined See and Do section is fine with me. This sometimes works well in some small city articles, and more often so in park articles.
On time format, until there is a definite consensus (it seems close) on allowing use of either format, then I believe Star articles should all follow the established AM/PM format. Given the attention that is given to format issues with Stars, I am very surprised to learn that there is a existing precedent using a 24 hour time format.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 20:49, 22 June 2011 (EDT)
I've reread the "See and Do" debate (which I was a part of), and it reads like a consensus to allow it now just as I felt it was then. If it is a matter of adding some clause to the policy that states, "In special circumstances in which a location has only "See" or "Do" attractions, a combined "See and Do" section may be used." then let's just slap it on there so that this nomination can move forward. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 21:04, 22 June 2011 (EDT)
That's fine, and we should also mention the infrequently useful "Eat and Drink" combination if we do. Although I'm not sure we really need to, as our policy articles and our common practices already disavow an inflexible one-size-fits-all approach. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 21:29, 22 June 2011 (EDT)
LtPowers, if I had written this article, I would in the do section have mentioned that not many activities exist here and then put in a couple of suggested walking tours. I agree that combining See and Do can work fine in park articles, where it can be difficult to distinguish between attractions and activities, but I still find it strange to have a section called See and Do if it only includes See. If there is really nothing to write in Do, just leave the section out as it is not mandatory
Peter, as you of course know, Project:Article templates and Project:Small city article template give details of sections. They are quite detailed, but nowhere do they say anything about the possibility of combining sections, on the contrary it is stated that the See section is mandatory, which is my basis for saying that it is in non-compliance not to have a See section. I do of course think that practice and consensus are important sources to determine our procedures when our policies are not sufficiently clear. But to say that because one article received a star despite deviations from MoS establishes a new practice which overrules our stated policy appears wrong. Receiving a star despite one small weakness does not mean that a new practice has been established, and still the vast majority of our articles use AM/PM so that is the practice. And in relation to the combination of See and Do, I do not see that the discussion on a particular park article implies that a general consensus has been reached, if a consensus is to overrule a written policy (See section being mandatory) the consensus should be very clear and reached at the appropriate talk page, not in a star discussion
ChubbyWimbus, as allready stated, I find it strange to name a section See and Do if it does not include Do, why not just leave out the Do section? I think it would be great to have the consensus written into the policy, but I do not think that the discussion referred to shows exactly what the consensus is about, so I think we shold discuss first on the appropriate talk page, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 21:50, 22 June 2011 (EDT)
Two points I want to put in here:
I do agree with Claus that if there are no activities, then it makes sense to leave out the Do section, since it's not mandatory (in other words, just rename "See & Do" to "See", and we can get on with this star nomination). As far as I can tell, the only reason having a See & Do heading with no activities listed would make sense is if you were planning to add activities later, which would imply that the article is incomplete (which I doubt is the case here, as that would disqualify it for star).
But Claus, you wrote that your basis for saying that this article is in non-compliance is that the See section is mandatory. ...And? Are you saying that this article doesn't have a See section? As far as I see, the See section has merely been combined with Do, not eliminated, so your argument that this article is in violation of a clear policy on this basis baffles me. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your argument, but that's how I'm reading it. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 23:18, 22 June 2011 (EDT)
PerryPlanet, yes, the See section is mandatory, which I read as it has to be there and the name can not be changed. If someone used 'Attractions' instead of 'See' we would also change it to 'See' with the argument that that section is mandatory. The combination of See and Do is a deviation from the stated policy, which is allowable in special cases, and per consensus and practice such a special case exists for some parks, but I do not see that we have consensus or practice for allowing it, just because a destination is small, or because it has no activities. This is my basis for stating that the See and Do section here is not in compliance with policy, consensus or practice, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 23:32, 22 June 2011 (EDT)
Changing "See" to "Attractions" is in violation of a clear policy, yes (in fact, Project:Section headers specifically mentions this rule). But combining section headers that do fit our standard section names violates no policy that I am familiar with. You said it yourself: nowhere in Project:Article templates does it say anything about the possibility of combining sections. It's a deviation from the norm, yes, but nowhere is this written into the policy. Perhaps this is an oversight that should be addressed in the policy in the future, but it's not written into the policy as of now. (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 00:32, 23 June 2011 (EDT)
With all due respect, there are an awful lot of words written in this discussion about something not especially important. May I just suggest that somebody plunges forward and changes Project:Section headers and the relevant parts of Project:Article templates to reflect a well-established practice - i.e. See and Do can be combined into one section when appropriate?--(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:59, 23 June 2011 (EDT)
Support. This Star discussion is really getting out of hand. It should be about the article, which according to me is fully worthy of being a Star and shouldn't become a victim of some outstanding policy issues we can't get resolved. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 08:54, 24 June 2011 (EDT)
Never has so much been said about so little, eh?;) Anyway, I took the plunge and incorporated this matter in policy...on Project:Section headers. However, reading Project:Article templates, I'm not quite sure how I should go about writing such a rule into that, so help there would be nice... (WT-en) PerryPlanetTalk 11:49, 24 June 2011 (EDT)
Support - Lovely little article. Nothing really stands out as needing to be corrected. (WT-en) texugo 02:34, 25 June 2011 (EDT)
Support - Just one small comment, "Tours run around 300 rubles. 70 rubles" looks a bit odd. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:06, 26 June 2011 (EDT)
Support - Some fine writing and one of the nicest looking maps on WT. - (WT-en) Cardboardbird 09:05, 26 June 2011 (EDT)
Third district I nominate for Star status in Bangkok. Please let me know where it needs changes or additions in order for it to become a Star:) --(WT-en) globe-trotter 12:21, 20 June 2011 (EDT)
Almost. Some comments below. Just suggestions, and none of them are individually important enough to keep this fine article from receiving the star, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 14:39, 20 June 2011 (EDT)
Intro, "It is another ...": appears unclear what it refers to
Understand, "which is where the district got its name from": I would leave this out
Understand: maybe there is a bit too much repetition in this section from other sections
Map: why is eat no 3 in this article, as it from the map appears to be in another district?
Listings: more Thai and transcription would be nice, if possible
Rooftop bar: this listing might be a violation of the principle of only one listing each
If possible, an intro to the see section would be nice
Bangkok Dolls Museum: I would leave out the mentioning of winning a competition in 1978 in Poland
Phaya Thai Palace: no need to mention opening hours twice
Thai Labour Museum: I do not understand "Modern media are used to present the material, such as television, slides and computers"
Buy: from the intro and Understand I would have expected more listings in the buy section
If possible, an intro to the drink section would be nice
I have dedicated some time to fix the issues:
Fixed.
Fixed.
I have taken some parts out that were duplicated. I hope its OK now, give it a re-read:)
The reason for this is that a few streets here (the Ratchawithi sois) are best reached using the BTS to Victory Monument. I have adapted the map accordingly to add this area.
I have added all the Thai names I could find.
Hmm, good point. I have now merged both of them under the See section.
There is almost nothing to See in Pratunam, that's why nothing was written there. I have now added a few sentences.
Fixed. Although Poland is very highly regarded in the dolls world I've heard;-)
Fixed.
Rephrased it.
I understand what you mean. Before I used "Pratunam Market" to refer to the whole area, but I have now added some separate indoor malls that are located there (Pratunam Market now only refers to the outdoors market). Please re-read the Buy section, as I rewrote it extensively. I had to enlarge the map to fit the new icons on it, so please take another look at the map as well.
Added a few sentences.
Alright, I hope it's better this way! --(WT-en) globe-trotter 22:27, 25 June 2011 (EDT)
Support, no furhter comments, --(WT-en) ClausHansen 01:33, 26 June 2011 (EDT)
Support. Excellent city district guide. I did a few little touch ups. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 02:07, 26 June 2011 (EDT)
Amazing. I go away for a week and when I get back there ar 4 new star nominations! Looks good at a glance, and I will try to go through it more carefully during the next week. Cheers, •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 09:02, 26 June 2011 (EDT)
Under extreme peer pressure, I rise to the challenge and submit another nomination of a Cape Peninsula dive site.
This one is a small and relatively straightforward wreck dive site, but it is very popular and deservedly so. The challenge here was to adequately describe both interior and exterior of the wreck, and I think I have now done this with the map and general arrangement drawings.
I would appreciate comments on how clear the descriptions are to the lay person and occasional diver, and of course the benefit of fresh eyes to spot the errors I have passed over. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 13:24, 14 July 2011 (EDT)
2 weeks and no comments! Maybe no-one else watches this page. Or everyone is out travelling? Cheers, •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 04:44, 28 July 2011 (EDT)
Support. The descriptions look good to me, and as a novice diver the information I would want all seems to be present. The only issues I saw (and these are too minor to prevent support): 1) the gallery pushes into the right ad bar - I think three images per row is more standard as that will use less than 800 pixels of width. 2) I wasn't sure if "imbedded" is British spelling or not, but if not then it should be changed to "embedded". -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 20:23, 28 July 2011 (EDT)
Done, eventually. Never in the history of Wikivoyage has it taken longer or more effort to make such small changes. I have been prevented from editing for nearly two weeks by persistent gateway timeouts when trying to edit or upload. The problem continues and I am using dialup on a laptop to edit this. It is expensive and slow, but it works. Cheers, •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 11:57, 12 August 2011 (EDT)
Support. I have done some nitpicky corrections, but as an admittedly regular diver I can't find anything missing that I can think of that should be added to the article. So, for my two cents... it should be a Star. (WT-en) Seascapeza 09:19, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
Thank you for that fine simian grooming performance, It is delightful to be nit-free again, if only for a limited period;-) Cheers, •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 11:57, 12 August 2011 (EDT)
Support. As ever, a very fine job done by Peter.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:52, 11 August 2011 (EDT)
Support I'm not sure I can have a say in this (being here less than a month), and I'm not a diver, but for what it's worth: this article appears complete to me and looks good. (WT-en) Justme 11:40, 12 August 2011 (EDT)
I am now able to edit again! I hope it lasts, as no-one was able to explain what the problem was. Anyway, I will star the article and do all the related admin. Thanks again to those who helped with the process. Cheers, • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 06:01, 29 August 2011 (EDT)
This is a slightly strange one as we do not yet have a monument at star status. I am therefore a little unsure about exactly how much academic detail about Borobudur should be included. I have tried not to dumb it down too much, whilst also bearing in mind that we are not an encyclopedia. It would be straightforward to add lots more detail, but I am unsure about the need for that?
The article also covers some nearby monuments. I have not though included any other types of nearby attractions or activities. I figured that the related temples on the Kedu Plain belong in a Borobudur article, but the local golf course doesn't! By necessity, the article is quite heavy with prose and relatively light on templated listings.
Heading off one question I can anticipate coming, I tried using a park template for this article some 2 years ago, and it does not work.
Anyway, I am now very pleased with the article, and think it is ripe for a star nomination. Finally, please remember to clear cache when viewing the article as ancient versions keep re-appearing (for me at least). --(WT-en) Burmesedays 12:30, 25 August 2011 (EDT)
Support, My personal view is that most people who go somewhere like Borobudur will either expect at least the current depth of "academic" detail, worthy of such a site, or certainly appreciate the information that is currently provided. To make it any lighter would not be appropriate. As (WT-en) Burmesedays has suggested, the site itself determines an article that is quite heavy with prose and relatively light on templated listings. I also agree that the article could accommodate some more detail but it is adequately provided for in it's current form. It reads well. Is the ticket office still using an exchange rate of Rp 9,000 = US$1?(WT-en) felix 13:40, 26 August 2011 (EDT)--
Comment. Thanks for the support Felix, but is it really necessary to be showing the measurement conversions which you have just added? I think this is both butt-ugly and unnecessary.--(WT-en) burmesedays 02:53, 27 August 2011 (EDT)
Yes, that is why I did them, so it would be MoS/Star article compliant. It does also help the people who are not acquainted with the metric system. I agree it can be a bit ugly at times but it is informing. I come across a lot of people who cannot visualise 100 mm, or 10 cm, and don't know if it is a yard long or a fraction of a foot, and others who are sure a foot is something that belongs in a shoe. Sorry if I made the article "butt ugly", that was not my intention and I hope you will forgive me. Remember it is the content that counts and it still remains quite attractive in the Borobudur article despite the feet.. -- (WT-en) felix 11:32, 27 August 2011 (EDT)
By the way (WT-en) Burmesedays, a little off topic but I am also having caching problems and have to keep clearing them, I assumed it was at my end though, but did think it was a bit odd I was getting the same issue using two entirely different browsers. It is not just related to the Borobudur article. The time-outs are also ongoing and I am getting occasional server not available and some 404 errors when trying to access WT articles or upload edits. Lasts for hours at a time. -- (WT-en) felix 11:32, 27 August 2011 (EDT)
Indeed. But that's largely ignored I think? Certainly when looking around other star articles, that is the case. Showing the conversion of 2.5 cm to 1 inch (as a measure of ash fall during the 2010 eruption of Merapi) seems especially pointless to me. If that conversion has to to stay then so be it, but it's ugly to my eye. Same goes for saying a hotel is .... 200m (655 feet) from the entrance. For the sake of consistency, if these stay I will also have to convert other measurements in the article.--(WT-en) burmesedays 11:12, 27 August 2011 (EDT)
I agree that the hotel distance is a bit clunky but the ash measurement is useful to visualise the depth. I actually thought I had got all the measures.. My personal view is the dual measures do provide useful information. It is especially useful for longer trip distances, height of mountains and similar. However I agree 200 m (655 ft) looks clunky. I should really have been 200 m (650 ft) for the sake of tidiness and really is unecessary as (I hope) most people can understand that smaller measures expressed as metres can be roughly equivalent to yards, also if someone cannot visualise 200 m then they are probably not going to make to Borobudur in the first place. However if we do them all then it is odd to leave some out because just because we don't like them. It would be good if there was some flexibility in this, Star article or not. However I am going to revert the (XXXft) from the hotel listings as I also think they are quite unecessary and agree they are quite unattractive. I think the other conversions are appropriate though for article usefullness and will leave them for later review as per this nomination process. I do understand this is not WP and we are not trying to be encyclopedic here but I believe measure conversions in general are in the travellers interest.-- (WT-en) felix 11:52, 27 August 2011 (EDT)
Felix, picking and choosing which measurements to convert is worse than showing them all. We must be consistent. Either we don't post conversions (my preference and in line with lots of other star articles), or we convert them all. --(WT-en) burmesedays 12:16, 27 August 2011 (EDT)
Actually, I think the intent of the WT:measurements article was that only the more difficult and important conversions be shown—I get that impression, at least, from the examples, which are limited to long distances (km/miles) and temperature (F/C), and the occasional height question. Accordingly, it might be appropriate to provide conversions for mileage/kilometerage in the get in/get around sections (maybe—the map probably already covers this concern), and perhaps for the height of the monument itself. I think it's reasonably fair to assume that anyone who has been to science class can understand 2.5 cm, and in general we don't need to gunk up the article with excessive conversions. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 18:29, 31 August 2011 (EDT)
Support. This is a fascinating place! I have a few suggestions, but I do think the article already strikes a nice balance between too much and too little information. Especially if most visiting is done by people wandering around on their own touching and defacing statues, they will need a good pocket guide to help them understand what, exactly, they are defacing. Anyway, suggestions: 1) Perhaps add more or generally rethink the early history section. It struck me as a bit disjointed, and didn't answer questions that would immediately come to mind (who built this and why?), although those answers are perhaps not forthcoming. 2) The map grey regions look a bit off—maybe they could be lightened? Right now they almost look greyed out. 3) A height scale on the cross section map would be awesome. 4) Is the recommendation for #Around Borobudur to use a car? Or is it practical to visit these other sites without one? 5) What are the opening times for the other sites, and how is it possible to climb back up Borobudur for the sunset if the monument closes at 5PM? 6) Try to think of something creative to say for "Drink" :P --(WT-en) PeterTalk 18:29, 31 August 2011 (EDT)
Thanks for all that Peter. The article so needed a fresh set of eyes. Half the problem is that I have been there way too many times, and it has become too easy to make assumptions. On your specific suggestions:
Early history. I see you have made a few good edits yourself to this section and let me try to clarify a little more. A key problem is that the history of the Sailendra Dynasty and just after is both poorly recorded, and confusing.
The road map - will do.
Height scale on the diagram - I will try. The base image itself is traced from an old academic book which I don't have a copy of, and I am a little unsure if it is 100% to scale (although it looks about right).
Other sites can be visited anytime in the hours of daylight and I will state as much. Climbing back up for sunset is ... errr... "not exactly officially sanctioned".... but I have managed it and and so have others:). I will clarify that it is the entrance that closes at 5PM.
Drink. Sigh... I will try. Actually, this is a prime example of an article where Eat and Drink should be combined I think? --(WT-en) burmesedays 21:08, 31 August 2011 (EDT)
On the road map I was using the normal grey background for a district map. Rather than lightening it, I have darkened it a little using c0c0c0 from the regionmap template. Is that more pleasing on the eye? --(WT-en) burmesedays 00:28, 1 September 2011 (EDT)
I agree with (WT-en) PeterTalk, some heights on the elevation diagram would be a good added feature. Also a mention of the relative proportioning ratios maybe something to consider. I went and had a look at the WP article and found they have one there illustrating this. If this was done it may be appropriate to incorporate elevation measures and the proportional relationships (9:6:4) into a single diagram if it did not get too visually busy as an outcome. -- (WT-en) felix 03:47, 1 September 2011 (EDT)
Yep, that's the source picture for the diagram I did Felix. I can work out the heights from the 9:6:4 proportions. Not sure they are interesting in themselves except to a student of ancient architecture, but they can provide rough heights for each level. I will do that.--(WT-en) burmesedays 05:44, 1 September 2011 (EDT)
I suspect you might be correct about the limited interest. The detail is probably similar in some ways to the use of the 'golden mean' (1:1.61803) in many classical buildings, including the Acropolis and describing it may assist some in understanding the proportions of the building. Certainly as you have noted they should assist in calculating the relative heights for the diagram. Actually describing those ratios in the diagram may be of interest if it can easily be incorporated without excessively confusing the diagram but the heights are a far more important aspect than the proportional ratios. BTY you are doing a great job on the article and it is looking really good. -- (WT-en) felix 10:34, 1 September 2011 (EDT)
Support. The only concern I have relates to the Do section. The first two paragraphs do not describe any kind of activity, but are better placed in a Respect section. For the rest, it's an awesome read. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 22:20, 31 August 2011 (EDT)
You are quite right and done. I just wanted to get that be nice to the locals message across to counteract the usual whinging traveller stuff that is published elsewhere. But you are certainly right - it should be in Respect.--(WT-en) burmesedays 00:18, 1 September 2011 (EDT)
Comment. Have now added a height scale to the cross section diagram, and with that, I think all comments made so far have been addressed. Any more comments please?--(WT-en) burmesedays 05:35, 8 September 2011 (EDT)
Here's a great neighborhood in an improperly often overlooked American city. I'm feeling pretty happy with the article, and think it should hold up through the nomination process. It would be the first Baltimore star, on the path to starring the city guide itself! --(WT-en) PeterTalk 14:14, 15 August 2011 (EDT)
I wish I had your eye for what makes a readable map. Just a couple of notes: I don't know that it's necessary to have subheadings in "Sleep", since there are only five listings. And it appears a little awkward to have two different kinds of subheadings in "Eat": two by cuisine and three by price; it's not immediately obvious how they interact with each other. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:12, 16 August 2011 (EDT)
Superb. Especially love the map and I think that this is the standard we should all strive for when drawing district maps. I would agree that the sleep section does not really need splitting. On the eat section I think the preamble makes it clear enough and I like the way it has been split. Oh, support in case that was not clear:).--(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:51, 16 August 2011 (EDT)
Support. I'm jealous of your map, now I have the urge to remake some older ones of mine.. Anyway, I still have a few questions. The Do section lists the Fells Point Ghost Tours—does this comply with our Tours policy? About the map, it says "Fell's Point" twice which I think is a bit confusing. And finally, I agree with LtPowers' notes of the Eat and Sleep sections. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 10:16, 16 August 2011 (EDT)
I'm ambivalent towards that ghost tour listing. I do feel that it doesn't pass muster per tour, but I can't work up any hostility towards it. And thanks for all the map compliments! It was a tricky one. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 10:08, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
Could this be our first star travel topic? Teaching English has been nominated and slushed; as far as I know no others have even been nominated.
It is not entirely complete — see the talk page for comment on that — but I think it is at least close to star level. Of course I'm the only author so far, so I cannot really judge. Comments here or contributions could fairly easily get it the last bit of the way, I think. (WT-en) Pashley 02:33, 20 June 2011 (EDT)
Query. Really like this article and would love to see it as a Star. Are there though any criteria for travel topic status?--(WT-en) Burmesedays 02:01, 23 June 2011 (EDT)
Ah yes:). That will teach me for not looking. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 03:49, 23 June 2011 (EDT)
Also Burmesedays, it may be useful to keep in mind as you read the stated goal within the article: "This article covers moving abroad to retire."
Are there any countries where you simply cannot retire in even if you want to or that you absoultely have to move to/become a citizen to live in? I tried looking up Uzbekistan, Kenya and Senegal, for example, and couldn't find any information on how to retire in these countries. Perhaps they have investor's visas, but maybe not.
The article is also highly centralized around retiring to Asia, which I know is the most common, but some geographical diversity in examples and pictures would be good. There are plenty of amazing coastal cities in Africa, for example, that have the same sort of exotic appeals that may attract someone to Thailand or the Caribbean, but it's difficult to know what/how much information applies for areas outside of Asia. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 04:04, 23 June 2011 (EDT)
Yep I am sure that is the case. I suspect finding the information (if it exists at all) for most African countries would be a bit of a nightmare.:::This is a very worthy topic, and one I am quite close to as I have assisted a number of retirees in understanding what is involved in acquiring a retirement residency visa in Indonesia. I think Pashley has done an excellent job with the structure of the article, it is certainly well written, and as far as I can tell, it seems complete. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:43, 24 June 2011 (EDT)
South Africa has quite a number of Europeans who have retired here. Mostly Germans and Britons, who take advantage of the good exchange rate to enjoy the milder climate. Many are what is locally known as "Swallows", as they tend to go north for the winter, and so don't actually stay here permanently. However some do, though permanent is never certain while one is still alive. I have no idea what the arrangements are, as I am local, so retiring here would be a natural progression for me, requiring no special procedures. The information must be available somewhere. •••(WT-en) Peter (Southwood)Talk 08:55, 26 June 2011 (EDT)
This one has been hanging out there a long time. I would like to propose that it is promoted to star. --(WT-en) burmesedays 12:22, 27 August 2011 (EDT)
Support (Pashley's a "star" editor, too). -- Alice✉ 04:16, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
So, who gets to close this nomination and promote it to Star status, then?-- Alice✉ 10:57, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
There are no outstanding criticisms that have not been dealt with and there does not seem to be any remaining opposition to promoting this topic to STAR status, so I will do just that in 2 days if nobody objects! -- Alice✉ 19:44, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
I might be going out on a limb with this nomination, as there are no hours or phone numbers for the restaurant listings. But that reflects the fact that a) they do not keep regular hours, and the best way to see if they're open is to walk a block and check, and b) that they do not have telephone numbers. I suppose I could have asked for owners' cell phones, but calling them about the restaurant would only confuse them. In other words, I don't see room for improvement on this front.
It's a really fascinating destination, and one where I had a ton of downtime to talk to people, gather information, and write it all down. I humbly submit that it might be a fun read too. What do you think? --PeterTalk18:32, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Nice and friendly prose style and lots of useful background information (but needs a link or more explanation when "the red season" is first mentioned.) Being picky, someone might want to template the hotel information to make maintenance by casual editors easier (and put the phone numbers into international format).. -- Alice✉ 19:21, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Dialing Colombian phone numbers is extremely complicated, and I'm honestly not sure how to best deal with that. Putting them in international format would obscure how to make local calls, which is probably a more likely scenario. --PeterTalk00:37, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Close(now support, see below) Here's a list of suggestions for improvement and items to clean up before this reaches star:
First, the comment about complications when dialing phone numbers. Star articles must match the MoS exactly. If there is a major issue with using something other than the international format, then you should propose an exemption to add a Colombia-specific section to Wikivoyage:Phone numbers (talk). Colombia/Contact/By phone isn't complete and should probably be fully explained/expanded to go with this star nomination. This is important with the hotels lacking websites, how else can someone book a room before arrival?
Prepare should probably be moved to become the first section of "Get in", which has arrival info. That said, it's not clear where a section of such information should go. Where you can stick it and the Small city article template don't really offer any clue as to where appropriate clothing should go. Malaria meds could go in a "stay healthy" section. Comment about sunscreen & insect repellant can go in stay healthy too and/or in See/Serranía de la Macarena. Since the length of the stay concerns the timing of flights, maybe that can be mentioned in Get in/By plane.
Climate only discusses river...can you find any climate info? Should mention temps & discuss rainy season.
Red links don't look good & should at least be started as a stub.
Get around: where can you find a guide? Any warnings? Is there an official system set up recognizing guides (so Pablo I meet outside the hotel and offers his service as a guide is ok to take me into the park, not from FARC looking to take me through the jungle around army checkpoints)? Do some speak English?
Is there any official information for the park? Like an office with phone number & address. An official website of any kind...maybe there's a national park department with a page about Serranía de la Macarena. Entry fees (so guides don't overstate them and rip off tourists)?
Note regarding no ATM in Villavicencio airport should also be mentioned in the Get in/By plane section. Also, since that section relies, in part, on traveling through Villavicencio airport and booking onward travel here as well as the suggestion of taking the bus there from Bogata then flying, the Villavicencio should have some content in the Get in section.
Stay safe/healthy: along with the above suggestion, info about malaria, sunburn, & heat exhaustion should be included in a stay healthy section. Are there any medical facilities or pharmacies/chemists if a visitor gets ill? If no, do you have to get a flight back to Villavicencio? Stay safe should include info on contacting the police/military if one gets in trouble (police station? Army office/HQ? Phone numbers?). Any dangerous animals to be wary of when going about the park? I'm particularly paranoid of snakes, so the first thing that comes to mind with wading through water in the Colombian jungles would be anacondas and any poisonous snakes in the jungle (fer de lance?). Poisonous frogs? Anything like ants or other insects with painful bites someone walking through the jungle needs to be careful of? Jaguars?
I've gone ahead and added ecotourism inter-wiki link, but are there any other appropriate travel topics that could be linked to within the prose on this page?
Only one WP link shows up in the sidebar, but there's a WP sidebar template at the bottom for both "La Macarena, Meta" and "Caño Cristales". I switched the order, so the one displayed in the sidebar links to La Macarena, Meta...you should figure out how to add a second WP sidebar link. Wikivoyage:Related articles only discusses using Template:Related.
That's quite a few suggestions, but then again, this is a star nomination and a star article should be reasonably complete with only the need to update listings. AHeneen (talk) 02:52, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I hopefully have addressed the phone number concerns that both commenters above have raised.
Any hotels listed without websites do not have websites. Booking before arrival is quite unusual in this area for an independent traveler.
I think the prepare section is too critical—it also contains no get in information, aside from the number of days to spend here (it's not a standard section, anyway, so a certain amount of discretion seems normal).
Climate info is only important in so far as it relates to travel (since we're not writing an encyclopedia), and there's no reason whatsoever to travel here other than to see the river. The temperature is always the same; the rainy and dry seasons happen when when the article tells you not to come.
I'm happy to start the stubs, and will (but for posterity's sake, that's not actually related to star requirements).
The article states that guides are lined up at the airport tourist desk (there are no other guides). There is no address, website, nor office for the national park (nor entry fees). Villavicencio is not a necessary stop (just a stop for cheapskates like me), but I'm not exactly sure what you mean in this bit.
Splitting stay safe and stay healthy might make sense, although that's not something we often do for small city articles. But getting help from police in this sort of place (it's a very small town) just isn't any sort of issue—just tell anyone what the problem is and they'll help, or just cross the street to talk to some bored looking guy in a uniform.
There are no organisms other than the malaria parasite to be worried about (that crazy penis-eating fish is much further south). If you had the fabulous fate of being attacked by a jaguar, any ecotourist would honestly be jealous;)
The WP link is a long-standing problem that we hopefully will have resolved soon here, along with the nearly identical problem regarding breadcrumbs. With both, it would be best if we could display more than one, but we don't have the functionality to do so yet. --PeterTalk08:33, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at this again, I think I better understand your comment about the prepare section. I have moved the first paragraph to get in, while keeping the non-transport logistics at Understand#Prepare. --PeterTalk18:36, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Query: I'm puzzled by your edit summary of "rv - utter nonsense, stop wasting peoples time" to this edit.
How and why exactly do you think the advice of Travellers may be using Wikivoyage from networks with very low bandwidth. In some countries, an internet café with ten computers connected to a single 56k modem is still fairly common. and Please use thumbnails unless you have a good reason not to. (thumbnails) will expand to full size if clicked on (given at Wikivoyage:Image policy and Wikivoyage:How_to_add_an_image#Thumbnails) should be changed (or, alternatively, does not apply to Star article nominations), please? -- Alice✉ 01:58, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
There is no policy (and should be no policy) mandating certain sizes for images, and perusing existing star articles will confirm that. --PeterTalk02:21, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So which is it then? You think the request to Please use thumbnails is wrong, or you have a good reason not to? Alice✉ 06:20, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
I would appreciate either a response to my question above or a timescale for a response. Thanks in anticipation. -- Alice✉ 10:54, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Both at the time I made my original edit (reverted with your edit summary of "rv - utter nonsense, stop wasting peoples time") and at the time of my "nonsensical" comments above, andtoday your "thumbnails" designated fixed image widths (mostly of 280px width) for display and this negated then (and now) the important advice that normally, images should be specified as thumbnails and should not have a size set - this way they will default to the size set in the registered user's preferences - unless you do have an exceptionally good reason to override the defaults set by the user. Hence my persistent questioning.
So, is your "exceptionally good reason" to override the defaults, your belief that nobody with a slow connection is ever going to read your La Macarena article or that no registered users with thumbnail defaults set at 120px or 150px or 180px or 200px or 220px or 250px or 300px (registered users are currently limited to just that choice of seven to set in their preferences) or something else entirely that I'm missing here? Sorry to be so abstruse...
Now unless you start to address editors' concerns here timeously and with a degree of seriousness, I'm going to have to strike my "Support" above and change to an "Oppose" on the grounds that you have advanced no rationale for an exception to our image policy. -- Alice✉ 21:20, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
I would prefer if policy dictated Star status and not the other way around. -- Alice✉ 21:30, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
FYI, I noticed that you just altered the policy page that you are citing to support your case. I have reverted that as obviously inappropriate. --PeterTalk21:32, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong on both counts, Peter. The Policy page at Wikivoyage:Image_policy#Minimal use of images, subsection #Image_sizes hasn't been changed since your sidekick Globe-trotter removed the useful 56k shortcut on 1 February 2013. I do agree that the policy of "Please use thumbnails unless you have a good reason not to. That way, the display size of images can be enlarged if the reader clicks on the lower right corner. If you have a good reason to change the default display size of the image, see Wikivoyage:How to add an image#Sizing for details." was in need of clarification - which is why I regard your revert here in support of your Star nomination as an abuse of your administrator tools. Relevant policy is here and states: Administrators may use the rollback tool to quickly undo all changes to an article made by the most recent editor. Currently, it is not possible to leave an explanation of a revert in the edit summary, so this tool is usually reserved only for obvious cases of graffiti, vandalism, or spam. There is pertinent discussion of my edits here in the section Sizing_of_images. -- Alice✉ 21:55, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
You have hijacked this star nomination to pursue your inane policy agenda. I can only hope that a productive contributor will come along and rescue it with a normal assessment of the article. --PeterTalk22:11, 20 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop trying to divert attention away from the original issue: forcing (large) image sizes on all readers of the Star nominated article - as opposed to following what was (until you changed it) a very clear policy with a very clear rationale: allow thumbnails to default to a globally set width for unregistered/not logged in readers, and to display at the specified width that registered readers have chosen in their preferences. Your choices seem very clear to me, either remove the unnecessary width specifications or provide a rationale for making an exception to our image policies. Either will do.
What is not acceptable is name calling and demanding that you have your very own set of policies convenient to yourself. -- Alice✉ 23:28, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Support - Very nicely written with a good range of useful photographs. The content is formatted well and the article is very easy to use. --Nick (talk) 21:40, 3 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - You know South America has made it when they get their first Olympics, their first pope, and their first Wikivoyage star article.;) PerryPlanet (talk) 15:20, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Nicely written, I like the style, especially for place like this:-) Just a few suggestions and questions:
Exactly because it's so remote and unknown, I'd put the country in the opening sentence (or at least in the first few lines). I had to click on the link to the Meta region to find out where in the world it is;-)
Perhaps it would also be handy to put all the info about arranging, finding and paying a (mandatory) guide somewhere together in one paragraph, early in the article. It says somewhere you can book a guide at the airport, but can you only do it at the spot or is there a way to do it in advance? Is the tourist desk at the airport the only place in town that arranges them? Is there ever a problem of not enough guides being available? Are there any guided tours you can join, or do you have to find other visitors yourself if you want to share costs? Is there any kind of discount for multiple day tours (as you recommend at least 2 days)?
As I mentioned in the pub, I think the Go Next section should have some more ideas. As planning is always a good part of travelling, any suggestions for next destinations are good information. When nothing is close by, travellers will be looking for places somewhat further away. JuliasTravels (talk) 20:22, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, of course. Still though, if I as a regular overlook that, many random visitors surely will too. The breadcrumb in my mind isn't really part of the article, when reading. It's a detail, however. JuliasTravels (talk) 11:18, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Do you think the breadcrumb trail is insufficient to indicate where the destination fits in geographically? My own opinion is that it does no harm to have the first paragraph of the lead include the basic geographical background to the article. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 15:06, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think it's better for clarity to have at least the country in the intro. Not that it would keep me from supporting this article as a star though. JuliasTravels (talk) 20:34, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Breadcrumb navigation doesn't display on mobile version and probably doesn't on most phone apps. I agree that it's best to place the country in the opening section for clarity.AHeneen (talk) 03:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support I provided quite a bit of criticism above, but on second thought it looks ok for a star guide. I still think that more climate info is needed and perhaps some links to relevant travel topics. A map that also shows the region (where exactly the waterfalls are and so forth) would be very useful, but isn't necessary for promotion to star. AHeneen (talk) 03:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I also would like to get a map of the trails up, and have most of what I need to do it. I'll need to get a semi-decent public domain satellite image of this area , though, and my WorldWind install hasn't been working properly. I'll see what I can do. Re: climate info, there really isn't any more available information to add (beyond the rough year averages I just added). Adding average rainfall or a monthly chart of highs and lows would be interesting trivia, but I can't find this information in any database. It's a very remote, small place in a part of the world that has extremely high geographic variation in climate. --PeterTalk14:23, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm re-nominating this after a near miss in the slush pile. I have done the work suggested by PerryPlanet, ChubbyWimbus, and AHeneen, but didn't add anything about dialects per Gorilla Jones' suggestion—Russian is very regular, perhaps owing to the excellent and very disciplined Russian/Soviet system of primary education.
It would be nice to have a star phrasebook that other contributors could look to as an example. Does this one look ready to fill that role? --PeterTalk23:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I don't speak Russian but my colleagues that do tell me this is good. -- Alice✉ 08:57, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Support. I'll add my vote of support since this nomination has been pretty quiet. I'd say the concerns brought up in the last nomination have been addressed. PerryPlanet (talk) 15:37, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt an anonymous opinion would count here but this phrasebook needs some rework to match day-to-day realities. For example, noone ever measures beer in pints in Eastern Europe, and few people even know how nuch a pint is. 176.15.11.22519:16, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Spotting the problems so they can be fixed is the main point of the nomination process, so go ahead and point out any other problems, If possible, suggest fixes, as that is even more useful. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 19:27, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the pint bit. There's a phrasebook template that was used to start the article, so someone at some point translated that without considering whether it really belongs. If you spot anything else like that, please change it, or bring it up here. --PeterTalk19:47, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is a pretty fun article, with maps, lots of cute polar bear pics, and is now in fine shape following a much appreciated proofread from Ikan Kekek. I can vouch that it is both comprehensive and accurate after my long-ish trip there. It will be nice to turn Canada pink again after the Penticton demotion! --PeterTalk15:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is one of the best articles I've seen on this site, and especially considering that it is not a big city, so while there's a lot to see and do, it is not possible to have the same diversity of museums, houses of worship, restaurants, etc., etc. I definitely consider this article a star.Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:49, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The Stephen Colbert reference alone is enough for my vote. It's an incredibly entertaining guide with lots of fun pictures and very lively writing, and looks pretty thorough. A couple nitpicky things are that I don't see hours for Bazlik Jewellers in Buy and Royal Canadian Legion in Drink, and a lot of the Sleep listings lack prices. But other than that it's an awesome guide totally worthy of a star. PerryPlanet (talk) 21:10, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yikes! I can't believe I forgot the sleep prices! That's enough to hold this up, so I'll try and do that right now. I'll feel pretty silly calling up the Legion for hours... Do we have any Legion members on Wikivoyage who know how that works? --PeterTalk21:23, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I won't be able to finish this right now (since it's going to involve a lot of chit-chatting over the phone), but should be able to finish it sometime this weekend. --PeterTalk22:03, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Another really nicely written article that keeps plenty of interest, but is also full of knowledge. A really good, fun article! --Nick (talk) 21:41, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I spy a few red-linked images that could do with replacing or removal. Other than that, it looks quite comprehensive for a town of its size! JamesA>talk10:28, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not seeing any, either. Where do you see those? In case it wasn't fully clear from my comment above, I support the nomination. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:54, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Despite the supports, there is an outstanding problem—many sleep listings still lack prices. I will get to that, and would appreciate keeping this open for comments in the interim. But it shouldn't be promoted until I've spent a few hours(...) chit chatting with hotel operators;) --PeterTalk21:45, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Almost. I also enjoyed this article. However, at their current (fixed) sizes the static maps are difficult to read on my small screen and I can't quite understand the rationale for having a series of (different) fixed image sizes for the cute images. I'd like folks to consider that, if people view our articles on-line (rather than printing them out,) there is less ability for editors to micro-manage the appearance of articles with exact image placement and widths or how text appears because of the different computer systems and screens (and for registered users, what skins and other user preferences they may have chosen). Many of our most experienced editors have not yet taken on board some features and facts about our operating software and platform. --W.Franke-mailtalk19:23, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Fun and complete article, well done. Apart from the small fixes you're working on, I think we should link (or at least mention) the country in the intro. As most people, I had never heard of Manitoba. The breadcrumb isn't so obvious for non-wiki aficionados and doesn't appear on mobile. That's a detail, though. JuliasTravels (talk) 08:31, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Then I think it's worth considering to replace one of those. I do think it better when it's clear where a destination is, without having to click. JuliasTravels (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I almost feel like just saying "it's in Canada" would have the opposite effect (then again, I have heard of Manitoba). Canada is such a vast country that if you told me a certain town was in Canada, my next question would be "okay, but where in Canada?" It'd be like saying "Dallas is in the United States." PerryPlanet (talk) 15:57, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, and it makes total sense to include a province or region (in this case Manitoba, I suppose, or is North of 53 equally well-known?). I just think, if you have to pick 2, country+region is clearer to a larger audience than region+sub-region. I wouldn't even mind when they'd all be linked from the intro, though. JuliasTravels (talk) 16:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Geographically challenged? :S I'm sorry, I really don't think one is geographically challenged when they're unfamiliar with provinces of countries thousands of miles away. Of course in the end you want to know where a place is exactly. I could imagine that the average North-American has heard of Manitoba (because that is your point, right?). But are they also familiar with the provinces of Russia? Or Morocco? If scrolling through star articles or clicking on a featured article, wouldn't it make sense for an average American reader to first of all know if a place is in Morocco, Tunesia, Yemen or where-ever, rather than in, e.g., Taza-Al Hoceima-Taounate? JuliasTravels (talk) 10:04, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Most people are a bit geographically challenged about some parts of the world. I am from South Africa, and I am pretty sure my geographical knowledge is better than average, both for a South African or in general, but no way I could draw a reasonably accurate map of the Balkans, for example, or West Africa and the ex soviet republics - never can remember all the 'stans. I know of Manitoba but only by name and that it is in Canada, I wouldn't be able to put it on a blank map with any accuracy. That doesn't affect the point that a location map is useful for anyone who is a bit vague on where a place is, particularly for star and main page articles. Sometimes the average American might need to be informed that Tunisia is in North Africa, never mind which province, and a location map usually does that quite well if you know the shapes of the continents. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 11:41, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose I misunderstood your meaning, then and we more or less agree. I don't really mind whether we use a map or a link in the intro, I just feel it would make sense to give people unfamiliar with Canada an idea where Churchill is without clicking. This discussion is of course a bit broader than just this nomination (and I never meant this as a factor in that nomination at all), so sorry for cluttering the star nom with it:-) JuliasTravels (talk) 12:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to go ahead and nominate this. I've updated the listings and links, so they should all be current, post-tax increase prices. They should also all have the necessary fields completed. I would like to point out 2 issues that I don't know what to do about or how to deal with OR perhaps most importantly, if they're even something necessary to be considered for star nomination. Both have to do with the maps.
The static map is completely outdated, so it either has to be deleted or updated. Based on basically all conversations about this that I've read, it seems that consensus favors deletion. In that case, it can easily just be removed from the page. If it must be updated, I cannot make the updates myself, so we'll have to slush the nomination immediately. There was also talk on the Talk Page about a map outlining the Kibiji Cycling Trail. Dynamic maps cannot do this and I cannot make static maps, so if that is a requirement for star status, we'll have to slush this as well.
The second point is that the dynamic map for some reason is black and white. Is it supposed to be that way? If so, please point me to the discussion, because I don't like it. If not, I cannot change that myself either. These are two outstanding issues that I want to point out from the get-go, because if they're deal-breakers, it's best to slush the nomination now before anyone takes the time to evaluate the article quality. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 03:07, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The star standards require a Wikivoyage-style map. The current static map in the article meets that requirement. How much of it is out of date? It shouldn't be hard to make the changes unless it needs to be expanded or recentered. Powers(talk)18:48, 23 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I Admittedly feel bad having to ask anyone to update the map, though, as discussions related to maps continue to make me feel that there is growing consensus that users would like to get rid of most WV-style maps in city articles.
As for what is outdated/needs updated on this map:
See/Do: Okayama Digital Museum is now "Okayama City Museum", the Kyobashi Market location could also be added.
Eat: Delete Tandoor and Kotoya, Add Raccos Burger and Kabakuro Maeda. "Ajitsuka no Mura" should be "Ajitsuka Nomura" and "Kappou Mamakari" should drop the 'u'
Drink: Delete Aussie Bar, Dining Bar Tulipa, and Musica Vista. Add Jazz Piano Bar. "Hau Oil Kitchen" should be "Hau Oli Kitchen". Also, do you think there should be more Drink listings for a city this size?
Sleep: Delete Matsunoki Ryokan and Hotel Sunroute. Add Saiwai-so, Toyoko Inn, and Okayama Central Hotel. "Okayama Koraku Hotel" should be "Okayama Kooraku Hotel", although I hate that extra 'o'.
Buy: It would be nice to have the Omotecho Shotengai completely outlined on the static map as opposed to the dynamic map where is has to be pinpointed at one location. I suppose I should also add Cred, Loft, etc to the dynamic map. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 09:37, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Then aside from my one question (Do you think it needs more "drink" listings?), I think the article content is ready for scrutiny. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:57, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's impossible to say without being familiar with the city. Seven is not too few if those are the only ones worth recommending, though considering the intro says there are "hundreds", it might be worth explaining why more aren't listed. Powers(talk)17:10, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see if I can scout out a few more listings. Until then, I welcome any critiques on the article, areas that could be improved, etc. (or pledges of support, although I don't think I've ever seen an article get star status without any suggestions for improvement). ChubbyWimbus (talk) 01:43, 27 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose — Our star articles should be complete and can be comparable to traditional travel guides. This one is not complete yet. I never been to Okayama so don't know what else is missing from the article but a major thing is surely missing and that is the history of the city. Other than that, nothing is mentioned about climate of the city. --Saqib (talk) 18:49, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well history is important for me. If we don't have history in some star articles, it doesn't means we shouldn't write history in future star articles. In-fact, I think history should be in every guide article too but thats not very important because guides are not our best work. Our best work is star articles and we should keep working on furthering improving them and its criteria. --Saqib (talk) 20:24, 6 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
An overall good article, should be easy enough indeed to bring it to star level. It seems a bit harsh to outright oppose a nomination only because of a missing history section for a city that was completely bombed in WWII. It's a fine suggestion to add a section like that, and I too like some historic background. Still, it would indeed be nice to have some more background. Since this is not a small city, it seems more odd to me that there's no connect or cope section. I would suggest to add at least information on internet and postal services. I'm also missing taxi's and biking (maybe places to rent them) in the get around section. JuliasTravels (talk) 19:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I have addressed all of the concerns above. Please review the article again and let me know if there are more/other changes that need made. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 14:49, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Great work, ChubbyWimbus. Perhaps you can include the price of the tram tickets and I do still think it would be nice to have a few words on taxis, even if perhaps they don't seem like a good option to you. There are always times and travellers that require the use of taxis, so a bit of general info on how to find one or rough price levels would be good. Most of these are details though, which will not prevent me from supporting the upgrade of this article. JuliasTravels (talk) 10:17, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Has anyone reviewed this nomination? Since stars must go through this process, I cannot justify upgrading the article without anyone actually reviewing it and offering official support. I believe all concerns have been addressed, so this nomination is in limbo with no objections but also no support. I'd like some confirmation that it has been fully critiqued and is truly star-worthy before I make the upgrade. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 16:43, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I already did support the article, even without the taxi info:-) But it's great that you added that too. I think the only outstanding oppose vote was from Saqib. Indeed you seem to have addressed the issues, and I'll post to Saqib's talk page to get his eyes on it. JuliasTravels (talk) 18:11, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Julia, I was not following-up on this discussion so thank you for notifying me of this and apologies ChubbyWimbus for being late. I'm not really good at determining how a star article should be like but its good to see you guys value my opinion. Keep up your good work ChubbyWimbus. I believe the article is very much improved but I' prefer not to make a support vote due to reason that I'm not good at English so I've no idea whether the article is well copyedited and grammatically flawless.I hope you understand it. But anyways, at-least I've strike my oppose vote so that article can makes its way to achieve star status. --Saqib (talk) 18:55, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to make the upgrade, but it's been in my mind that I haven't dealt with Inujima Island, so I brought it up on the Okayama Talk Page to ask how to best deal with this. (I feel like this is such an odd evaluation process as I, the nominator, am the one bringing up most of the issues) ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:20, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I have gone through the guide and although I have never spent any significant time in Okayama (except of changing trains), I like it and I believe it is well written and provides all information required from a star article. Danapit (talk) 18:02, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Great article, was invaluable during our visit and passed the real life test. Only the most favourite restaurant of my girl was missing, so i corrected that;) jan (talk) 14:21, 21 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This guide is being nominated for star status, second time. Previously the nomination was slushed because the guide was missing some information (previous version) and so concerns were raised which has been properly addressed as far I can see. I believe this guide mention everything that this small destination have to offer, Lets see if it can become the first star rated guide from South Asian. The guide certainly can make a good example as star status for many destinations of small size such as this. --Saqib (talk) 22:10, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to be able to support this nomination, but I notice that you opposed the nomination of Okayama when that article had no climate info. I don't see any climate info in this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:33, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
[unindent] This article probably still needs a bit more copy editing for Star status. I did a bit more just now. I won't stand in its way, though. Once any copy editing is done that will satisfy the most discerning of critics, this article should be approved for Star status. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:49, 21 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The number of images seems excessive; on my screen, they extend past the bottom of the page and push one of the infoboxes down with them. I would suggest culling the photos to just the best of the best. Powers(talk)20:01, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wondering if this has already been changed. On the notebook computer I'm borrowing, the last photo, of the Dancing Girl, takes up the right side of the "Buy" section and less than half of "Eat and Drink", and the rest of the article has no images. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:41, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I freely admit different computers can display it differently. But this article has more photos than many that are twice as long. With the relatively small amount of prose, we have to reduce the number of images accordingly. Powers(talk)21:04, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Have removed 3 images. In my opinion, it does look good and useful to have good quality photos filling-up the right side, but anyways. --Saqib (talk) 21:59, 22 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm doing a copy-editing pass, finding only a few very minor issues & fixing them. I support the nomination.
Current text has "The PTDC Motel shown on the map was shut down in 2013 and remains so as of late 2014." Can we get more recent info? Pashley (talk) 14:42, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just noticed this comment. The PTDC motel is no more in business. Last time when I was there, it was going through renovation but I think it may take years since the work is very slow. --Saqib (talk) 06:13, 21 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe try writing the infoboxes into the article somehow? Four could be too many? Actually, what template is this supposed to be based off of? --ButteBag (talk) 15:09, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's been nearly two years now; we've now got four support votes, no non-support votes, and all objections appear to have been addressed. It's been awhile since we've had a new Star article. Are we ready to pull the trigger with this one? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:25, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. With no non-support votes, and no obvious outstanding issues, there's nothing to keep us from promoting this article. So let's do that now. Who can update the map on the stars page? JuliasTravels (talk) 20:19, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Powers made the most recent update to the map, adding Okayama in 2015. I'm not sure who else among our current community members knows how to make the update - all of the other names on the map's edit history are of users who are now inactive, and I myself have no abilities in this field. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:17, 1 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing what changes need to be made. (By the way, making minor updates to an SVG really takes scarcely more 'skills' than editing wikitext.) Powers(talk)02:50, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The last nomination was slushed due to the map. Now Saqib made a new static map from scratch. I asked User:LtPowers if he is fine with the static map and got a positive response. In about three weeks the first crosswiki presentation starts and imho a star article would be a nice touch to it. Joachim helped with the map, User:Jjtkk had initially the first support and User:Danapit was so kind to help out as well. Any feedback is welcome. I will try to expand some parts but the season just started, so new businesses will show up in the next weeks. jan (talk) 08:01, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nitpick: In my opinion, if you think this guide is substantially complete to the extent that it deserves Star status, I will certainly respect that and defer to you, and it's surely a beautiful guide. The one nitpick I have at the moment (not having read through the current version of the article in detail) is that the last photo goes past the end of the text (at least on my screen). It's not drastic at all, but it doesn't seem like an absolutely optimal practice. Ideally, a photo of a train station probably should be in the "Get in" section, but that would displace the map. But I don't think that's essential, and the solution is just to move it somewhere where it's not in the way of anything but also doesn't go past the end of the text. It could be as simple as putting it in the "Connect" section. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:27, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ikan Kekek, good spot. Corrected, guess my perspective concerning the train station is leaving rather than arriving. Concerning completeness: I listed all businesses who come to my mind and are well establish (Travemünde tourism only lists one more business than i did). I know Drink is short but that is due to the seasonality of the town. There are some other waterholes but they are seedy (lets say you need a certain level of alcohol to find that places funny) and for serious nightlife you have to go to Lübeck. Travemünde is a rather calm place, where people stay in their apartments, hotels etc. and might go dancing in the Maritim or Columbia hotel later on. jan (talk) 08:44, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nooooo, the photo has to be in Go next cause it shows this huge departure clock to Lübeck. Also someone broke the rhythm of check/Lübeck verse;) Jjtkk (talk) 17:30, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — Sorry Jan but I'm not satisfied with current state of article. I would like to see the lead section and well a few other sections a little bit more expanded. (i) How much a train ticket cost to get into Travemünde from Lübeck and on weekends, many more trains arrive from where and how much they charge? It would be helpful to have same information available for by bus and by ferry. (ii) Are they anyway other to get around the town such as taxis, local train et cetra? (iii) Beach is towns main attraction and I would like to see the listing expanded as much as possible. --Saqib (talk) 12:07, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Saqib, travelling by train in Germany is a sophiscated topic. The Germany articles tries to explain it but the mixture of network vs. regional vs. DB tickets leaves even Germans lost sometimes.
Price: Same for bus and train if you travel point-to-point from Lübeck (network ticket three zones = 3 Euros). I can add that easily
Get around: The core area of Travemünde is pedestrian only (bikes are allowed as well) e.g. Vorderreihe and the Promenade. German towns/cities pride themselves to keep cars out of the city center. Theoretically you can use a taxi and there is a local bus that run some streets every two hours but in real life people either walk or use their bike. Also keep in mind that Travemünde is compact (with the exception of the harbour but there you will end up on the ferry). To give you a better understanding: The big street between harbour & town is blocked on purpose to not allow cars to go directly to the town.
Expansion: Keep in mind that all major infrastructure (airport, central train station), public buildings (town house, hospitals etc.) or nightlife (clubs) are in Lübeck. This is only a very small town which happens to have a center you can circle in 30-45 mins depending on your walking speed. I don't hide places, i can add supermarkets, bakeries and a newspaper station but it remains a small place. jan (talk) 12:57, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, though I can't address this specific case, my experience is that, forgetting about various kinds of discounts, the price of a train ticket depends on how long before your date of travel you buy your ticket. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:05, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Saqib no worries, i prefer straight and hard talk. Your second opinion is valuable and i think it needs to be clearer for other people. As Ikan says, too rail travel in Germany sometimes requires analytical skills;) Too many dimensions. Germans are aware of that but the traps for travellers are hardly avoidable. I will try to improve but see Travemünde in essence like a district of Lübeck which is out of town. jan (talk) 16:27, 15 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Powers, you raise an interesting point which is due to the dynamic maps. The map i linked on your page is their {{Mapframe|53.9603|10.8735|zoom=15|width=500|height=500|staticmap=Travemünde travel map.png}} The link to the mentioned static map is below the dynamic Other maps for Travemünde: Full-screen version - printable static map. (Edit GPX). Do i understand your point correct, you would prefer to have the static map as default and the dynamic in the back? Or shall both be presented? jan (talk) 06:54, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well if I didn't notice it I don't think we can expect the average reader to. And certainly, one of the points of having handcrafted, static maps is to facilitate printing of the article; that's mooted if the map isn't actually displayed in the article proper. I believe the hand-crafted map, if it's well made, should be sufficient but if you still wanted the dynamic map for some reason, it seems reasonable that they could both be in the article. Powers(talk)13:30, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Powers i will change according to your suggestion as this seems to be the star standard. I assume this will be a topic for any nomination (dynamic is pretty widespread already). Is there any other topic? Regards, jan (talk) 13:35, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, now that I take a closer look I have very strong concerns about the prose. There is very little of it. The lead section is bare-bones; the Understand section is dry and encyclopedic; and the See, Do, and Buy sections have no introductions. The Wikivoyage:Tone throughout is very dry and perfunctory; there is none of the sparkling prose that we usually expect as examples of our best work. Powers(talk)00:29, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Also, our star standards ask that listings be in alphabetical order (geographic order is also acceptable, but I don't see any strong case here for that). Powers(talk)00:34, 20 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think the Old Town should be marked on the map, not with a pinpoint but with perhaps a certain color to show the road(s) and extent of the Old Town. This is one of the strengths of the static map, after all. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:59, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Bump; discussion seems to have died out several years ago. Is it now ready to go?
After a quick glance, it looks fine to me. The fact that everyone was nitpicking (openly) when this was nominated in 2014 implies to me that the article is probably good enough. Let's promote it and get this nomination out of the way so we can focus on other nominations. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:49, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Now I've looked through a little more closely, I can see a couple minor things like a listing with a poor description, and that sort of thing, but I think it's good enough. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:04, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A great travel guide. I also hear that its main author is very handsome. More to the point, I have edited this article extensively over the last 18 months, and feel that the result has turned out quiet nicely. I vouch that it is complete by any reasonable standard, and as far as I can tell it follows our policies meticulously. The one exception would perhaps be that when sorting listings I have left out the place name Uppsala and words like café (i.e. sorting "Uppsala Cathedral" by Cathedral, and "Café Linné" by Linné). This is because pretty much any café can be called "Café X", and almost all sights can be called "Uppsala Y". I have listed most sights by their Swedish official title, which visitors are most likely to find on signs or when searching online, but used the English names for the two largest attractions, as their English names are widely adopted. It has the perk that it gives a more prominent place to highlights, but if it is a deal breaker for someone we can easily fix it. Rather than creating separate "Orientation", "Etymology" and "Read" headings, I have integrated that information into the "Understand" lede, as I think that it reads better. Not being a native English speaker, I might also have missed one or two places in need of copy editing. Anyways, I'm eager to hear any feedback, comments or praise you may have. MartinJacobson (talk) 14:17, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My criticism is that it is very long. I support star status, but I'd rather see some efforts made to shorten it a little first. But I really can't say how that would be done. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:34, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Looked at it, made some changes. Could still use another pair of eyes. Concur with User:SelfieCity that it may be too long. However, as I've just learned, Uppsala is apparently Sweden's fourth-largest city, so who are we to judge? Support. ARR8 (talk) 02:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Would you say we now have consensus to upgrade this article to star? Including the nominator, we now have 4 supports. Per current policy — which says that you can upgrade an article to star if 3 weeks have passed and there is consensus — I think we'd be within our rights. But we could wait for stronger consensus if that is preferred, since we've still got a few weeks before we reach the two-month mark and need to come to a decision. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:51, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Because the only star nominations I know about are the ones from Travemunde onward, none of which seemed to get many support votes. Therefore, I don't know how many a nomination should get before adding star status. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:45, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Given that Star is a higher honor than DotM, I think it's safe to say that if four votes constitute a "strong consensus" for DotM, more than four are required for a starnom. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:19, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I feel that we're at a difficult point here. There's no opposition to it becoming star, but not enough votes to promote it to star status. How would people feel if I mentioned the star nomination the pub? A couple more votes would be a great help. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:20, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Curious as to why this isn't a star? Seems complete, has a static map, good writing that conforms perfectly to the MoS, and a few nice and well placed images. After reading this I feel that; not only do I not need to consult another guide, I'd really have no reason to want to. Is there anything about this article that could be improved? --ButteBag (talk) 16:03, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I know it has in the past been considered doubtful whether the argument should "count" but have a look at Copyscape which tells us something like 56% of the WV article has not been touched since the migration. It may be that some prose is indeed so perfect it shouldn't be touched, but I fear some of this untouched stuff may have become outdated over the last half decade. At any rate, promoting it to "star" would likely set those wordings even more in stone than already, which might hurt our SEO attempts. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:14, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the SEO argument but honestly, the reason we migrated the way we did was so that we wouldn't have to re-write everything. I'm not going to claim my prose is perfect but it's very hard to re-write one's own text and feel the second attempt is as good as the first. Powers(talk)00:36, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And also, while I find the SEO issues in general very important, an individual article is not going to make the difference. Considering the fact that star nominations can be counted on one hand, I suppose SEO shouldn't be a major concern here and 56% is actually not all that bad, compared to our average articles. That said, I'm not sure how to feel about this kind of article for star. In itself, it's perfectly complete - so it's not that. Star rating suggests it's the best we have to offer. That's true, to the extent that you simply can't write much more about a place like this, but I'm not sure how it would come across on the average passer-by. Making tiny places super-complete is much simpler and less work than doing the same for a huge city, so I do think we'd have to make sure that this remains somewhat of an exception. JuliasTravels (talk) 12:57, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Look, I've been trying to avoid coming to this conclusion for a long time because Hobbitschuster is a valuable contributor in most ways. But it's no longer possible to avoid noting the similarities between the SEO agenda-pushing that he's been engaging in for the past few months and Frank's agenda-pushing vis-à-vis section headers et al. some time ago. Other editors have been trying for some time to impress upon HS the need to let it go, but apparently those entreaties have fallen on ears that are equally as deaf as Frank's were when we tried to reason with him. So let me try one more time: HS, your ideas about making Star certification, DotM readiness, etc. contingent on WT/WV Copyscape comparisons have been duly heard out by the community, but unfortunately it's become obvious that you're not going to get a consensus behind them. It's imperative that you realize it's time to stop trying to force the issue. --AndreCarrotflower (talk) 13:28, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You do realise we forked in 2012 and it's now 2017? If the majority of text in an article has not been updated in roughly five years that is very much something we'd want to know. For an article to represent our best work, it needs to be current and up-to-date. K7L (talk) 13:54, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That could easily be because descriptions of old buildings don't need updating beyond changes in prices. However, I have a specific substantive issue with the article, though only one that's easily resolvable. From the "Eat" listings for the Tillman Inn: The smaller main dining room is in the carriage shed that was built after the War to connect the two businesses. "The War" usually means WWII, but in this context, it would seem to indicate the Civil War. The ambiguity should be ended by simply specifying which war is being referred to.
Another thing, unless I've somehow read it without registering, is that when and how the hamlet was renamed "Childs" should be recounted in "Understand"; I can't remember seeing that information anywhere.
But once those two things are taken care of, I would support starring this article, with the caveat that it's appeared in previous star nominations that my judgment in these matters is not necessarily to be relied upon, as there are various things I might miss that others see. I'm having trouble seeing what else could be added to this article, though, other than perhaps what kind of fish are most plentiful in the creek, if it's fished in Childs, and whether that one store sells fishing equipment. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:08, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The previous sentence refers to the "Civil War"; it seemed redundant to repeat the name in such quick succession. Would the antecedent be clearer if "War" was lowercased? ... I'm not sure anyone fishes in Proctor Creek; the convenience store is typical of any suburban or urban store of the type, not the rural fishing-town general store one might envision. ... I don't actually know when or why the hamlet was renamed. Powers(talk)21:27, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is a good article, but there are a few small points that might be looked at. "Get in" assumes that you are in a car; I think that it should give some indication of public transport (bus to Albion then taxi / walk?) and maybe cycling options too. There are no lat/longs on the listings (maybe not important as there is a good static map). I am not sure that the content of "Connect" is standard - should it not be about wifi, phone coverage etc? AlasdairW (talk) 15:27, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Connect" is about any form of communication, including snail mail. However, some remarks on cell phone signal strength would be relevant. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:31, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Just a silly comment, but I am not really fan of small random towns being rated as star quality articles. I want to see cities, and areas of interest such as Mohenjo-daro as star article. --Saqib (talk) 16:07, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Why not? Are you perhaps mistaking the star rating as a reflection on the destination rather than on the quality of the article itself? Powers(talk)21:27, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I wanted to say that I want to see detailed and comprehensive guide as star rated articles. Guides on small hamlets and towns which don't have any major attraction or distinction rarely become so detailed. I just feel that guides of small towns may get more easily star rated articles because they don't require much work in the sense they don't have much to offer. I hope you get my Pakistani Engish? --Saqib (talk) 21:48, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Powers, I think the clearest way to indicate which war is being referred to in that context would be to use the phrase "that war". I kind of think that we might hold off on starring the article until a bit of background on when and why the hamlet's name was changed to Childs could be included, simply because all the other information leaves that implicit question hanging. I suppose it might not be too hard to find that out, if someone wants to contact a historical society or library in the area, or perhaps the local museum or government, but it seems like a nice thing to include in the article. The stuff about fishing was just a brainstorm on my part and nothing I consider important to include, especially if it's not relevant. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:30, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have stated before, and I continue to state, my utter opposition to the idea of any article being considered permanently ineligible for Star status, or any double standard between small and large destinations. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:12, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
w:Childs, New York and w:Gaines, New York claim that the hamlet was named after Judge Henry Childs. The Genealogical and Family History of Western New York, Vol. 2 further confirms the existence of an Hon. Henry A. Childs, who was born in Orleans County, educated in the Gaines District Schoolhouse (one of the buildings that today make up the Cobblestone Museum complex), and ended up a State Supreme Court justice.
Additionally, the Historic Map Works website has several old Orleans County maps in its archives, and going by those it appears that the change in name of the hamlet from Fair Haven to Childs happened some time between 1890 and 1913. This would have been contemporaneous with his term on the Supreme Court bench.
Interestingly, however, the aforementioned Genealogical and Family History was published in 1912 yet makes no mention in its lengthy biographical sketch of Judge Childs that his hometown was renamed in his honor.
Thanks for checking into it! If that's all we've got, I think we should run with it. Perhaps some librarian or local or regional historical society might be able to eliminate the ambiguity, but this is alright for now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:08, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, let's put it this way: since the last remaining problem that anyone specifically had with this article (i.e. the information regarding when the hamlet's name was changed) has now been addressed, does anyone not think we should go ahead with elevating Childs to Star status? Pinging Ikan and Powers one last time. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:35, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good overall, but have a little question on the Fair Haven Inn. It says it was "The Tillman family opened it several years ago in an 1837 Greek Revival house." We usually don't use relative units of time as they become outdated, and trevellers don't know if it was written last week or in 2006. The Inn's website says it was "established 1824" without any more context, so even before we say the house was built. Anyone know more about when this inn was bilt, (re) opened, etc.? JakeOregon (talk) 02:06, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think that we need to improve Get in before it is a star. The article only describes getting in by car - the requirement for a guide city is "There are clear explanations of multiple ways to get in". Childs may not be on a bus route, but we should say where nearby is accessible by bus or train, and how to proceed from there. My comments a year ago suggested a bus to Albion (New York) then walking, but I don't know how practical that it. AlasdairW (talk) 22:12, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I've had a fairly good look: I read the understand section and looked through most of the rest as well. It looks good to me; I understand that we normally say there should be multiple ways to get in, but for a place as small as Childs I'm not sure if we should really expect information about getting in by bus or whatever. I've removed a few bold terms that don't really enhance the article, but otherwise I think we are ready to upgrade this one to star. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 17:41, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with AlasdairW that it should mention other ways to get there. To someone who lacks a drivers license the article practically lacks a "Get in" section, thus not even satisfying the criteria for usable article status. Even if there are no other ways to get there we should say so explicitly. Aside from that, I am also curious about the population size of this "tiny hamlet". I've heard Indian settlements of 50,000 being referred to as "villages", while that in Swedish terms would make a medium-sized city. Of course population numbers are very blunt, but is Childs in the general area of 50 inhabitants, 500 inhabitants or 5,000 inhabitants? MartinJacobson (talk) 21:46, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find information on the population of Childs. Generally, any settlement in the U.S. with at least 1000 people is called a "city", at least in the Midwest and the West, but in New York State it's probably different. The static map implies that it's under 500 inhabitants, looking at the number of buildings. Maybe around 100? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:55, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
SelfieCity - Childs is an unincorporated hamlet with no official borders. Without any universally accepted definition of who does and doesn't live "in" Childs, the question of official population figures becomes moot. Parenthetically, the difference between cities, towns and villages is definitely something that changes from state to state. In New York, without getting down too far into the weeds, "towns" are minor civil divisions basically synonymous with what other states call "townships", while the difference between incorporated "cities" and "villages" basically boils down to whether or not they're part of an underlying town (cities aren't, villages are). Population has nothing to do with it: the cities of Sherrill and Little Falls have populations of 3,071 and 4,946 respectively, while the villages of Hempstead and Freeport have 53,891 and 43,713 respectively. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:56, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
[Unindent] Information on the nearest bus and train stops and airport should be added, although it might be overkill in a way for such a small community, and then let's please give the article a star. It's hard to imagine it being that much better. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:35, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, but it's brief and doing no harm, and at least one person in this thread requested it. So in case it isn't already clear, I support this nomination. The only thing I could think of (and thought of) to add were remarks on the strength of cell phone signals, and those are subject to change, anyway, and really don't need to be mentioned unless there's a problem with them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:47, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The previous nomination had been going on for some time, and fairly recently User:AndreCarrotflower and I agreed that it would be best to slush that nomination and start on a clean slate. This is a long article with a lot of information, but what do you all think? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:43, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support, comprehensive city guide. The city article is in a very good state. Will however have to watch the district do not slide to usable status as although also comprehensive and full of great information there are a few dead links and a number of listings without coordinates. --Traveler100 (talk) 09:24, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I mean, duh. This is clearly one of the best articles on the site. If folks use Buffalo as a template when adding their respective hometowns, we'd be so much the better.
Here are three changes I would make, that for me would make this article even better. (To be clear, I still think Buffalo is a star without these changes.)
Add a few more pictures, (Get in or Get around could use 1-2 more, 1 for festivals, and 1-2 at least for food)
Chop local chains listings down to 9
A shorter history section? Lol, but maybe adding a few sub-heads or bolding a few choice passages will help break up the text.
The long "local chains" section helps shorten the district articles (which, though I've been pruning those pretty drastically, are all still much longer than the parent Buffalo article). Rather than having an identical blurb for each individual location of a particular chain, all the non-location-specific information is centralized in Buffalo#Local chains, and the district articles simply point the reader back there for in-depth descriptions. I suppose the blurbs could be shortened a bit, though, if there are concerns about length - in the district articles I'm trying for six lines maximum in the "Eat" sections, and many of these listings in Buffalo#Local chains are substantially longer. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:34, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I agree that having subheadings in the "History" section would be a good idea. What I did in Manhattan/East Village#Understand might give you some ideas. Otherwise, with the caveats that previously, I've sucked at judging the degree of perfection of articles and others have found stuff I never noticed, and also, that I didn't re-read the entire article word for word, I think it would definitely deserve a star as one of the best articles on the site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Progress report: I've broken up the "History" section into subsections as suggested by ButteBag and Ikan Kekek. In a few weeks (once I'm done giving Buffalo/East Side the blurb-shortening treatment), I plan to make some fairly substantial edits to the parent article, including some pruning and blurb-shortening in the "Local chains", "Food trucks", and "Pizza" sections, which should go some way toward alleviating ButteBag's concerns. I will post a notice here when those tasks are finished and we can revisit this nomination at that time. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:26, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
... or ARR8, whose name I also see on this page, or SelfieCity himself? Forgive me for going on a user-tagging spree, but Buffalo's been kicking around Starnom for a couple years now and I'd really like either for it to be upgraded or to know definitively what improvements still need to be made. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:34, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really trust my judgment on starnoms and also don't feel up to rereading the entire article. However, I'll give a supporting vote, anyway, based on your responsiveness to the concerns raised here and my reactions to previous readings of the article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:50, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I've taken a pretty good, detailed look at the article, scrolling slowly through each section, and it's written by someone (among others) with knowledge of the city, inside-out, which is clearly demonstrated. For anyone, the article has interesting trivia and general coverage, along with tourist-related information for the traveler. If this article isn't good enough for star status, then we might as well throw in the towel on star articles altogether. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:45, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Well, in any case, five support votes is also what Uppsala has now, so I guess I'll do for Buffalo what I'm currently doing for it: holding off for a few days to allow an opportunity for any last-minute objections, then pulling the trigger. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:11, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is a good article. However when I read it I was a little lost as to where some things are. There are no markers - nothing appears on the full page map, and it is not always obvious which district things are in. I think that the train stations and airport should be listings, so that they can easily be found on the map, and link to WP articles. Major attractions should have markers or links to districts. A map showing where the suburbs are would be useful, or links to Northtowns and Southtowns. AlasdairW (talk) 22:24, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's true. Why do no listings have coordinates? Even if there is not a dynamic map on the page, if you click on a listing marker the dynamic map will show up. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 22:32, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There are no listings and no coordinates because Huge City articles are not supposed to have listings or dynamic maps. All that content is, by design and in accordance with policy, shunted to the district articles. In the case of the train station and the airport, it's made clear through text in which district or suburb they are located. Maps showing where the suburbs are located can be found on the Northtowns, Southtowns, and Niagara Frontier pages.
More broadly: I welcome feedback and suggestions for improvement of bona fide deficiencies in the article. But I can't hold my tongue anymore about the fact that the quote-unquote "issues" needlessly holding up Buffalo's promotion are far more minor and picayune than anything that's ever served as an obstacle for any other starnom I've ever seen. Holding Star articles to a high standard is well and good, but if all our nominees were held to a standard this impossibly high, Wikivoyage wouldn't have any Star articles at all. If the matters laid out above are the biggest faults that can be found with the article, that only strengthens the argument that Buffalo, at long last, is ready for promotion to Star.
Also true. Thanks for the explanation, though, and I see your point about criticism — the problem is that it's very easy to criticize but much harder to fix, or explain in detail why the criticism is not valid. However, I think coordinates are an important topic, because they're associated with every listing going through the whole article. But I can understand the frustrations involved in the process. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:35, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If there were full listings with geo in this article, that would be wrong. If it isn't clear which district article some of the mentioned points of interest are in, give examples, so that they can be fixed, but I believe that objecting that there is no geo in a huge city article is an invalid argument in this thread, though of course anyone is welcome to start a discussion at Wikivoyage talk:Huge city article template if they'd like to propose a change from the current policy. For the record, I would expect to vote a big fat no on that proposal. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:31, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am happy with there being no listings, but there should be clear references to the district things are in. In many huge cities there is a marker for the airport and main train station, but I am fine if that is not policy. More specifically, which district is Buffalo-Depew station in? I also don't know which districts the museums are in, although I see that one now has a link to the district article which is good. Similarly it is not clear where the parks are, there is mention of Buffalo and Erie County Naval and Military Park being "Canalside", but that is not a district name. AlasdairW (talk) 10:26, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Canalside is cited no less than four times throughout the article as being downtown. The Buffalo-Depew train station is explicitly described directly within the listing as being "in the suburb of Depew, about 8 miles (12 km) east of the city". Forgive me for letting my frustration get the better of me, but do you understand now why I consider these concerns almost deliberately obtuse? Not only has no other Starnom had to jump through hoops to this degree, but these "issues" aren't even real issues. The information is right there in black and white for anyone who bothers to actually read the article!!! And for those who don't want to read and pay attention, no Wikivoyage article is going to help them. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:11, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am now happy to support Buffalo being a star. We have sorted out where Depew is, linking it to Cheektowaga and discovering that it is near the airport. I would still prefer more of the sights to have links to the districts, to help the reader who is only in town for a few hours and doesn't have the time to read everything in detail. AlasdairW (talk) 20:56, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Since I was pinged, I will say that something I did notice that could be improved is the presence of negative reviews. To be fair, I did not look at it long or do more than skim some districts, but I did see a couple. To give one example, JT's Urban Italian in Buffalo/Elmwood Village has two negative listings, in both eat and drink, and there are many other listings to pick up the slack if those are removed. Maybe that particular example is justified, I don't know. I'll refrain from voting either way, since this seems set to pass. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 17:59, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's the parent article that's up for consideration, not the districts. Also, quoting myself from Talk:Clarence (New York): "Of course we avoid [outright] negative reviews, but one thing I've learned... is that, where warranted, including honest mixed reviews written in frank, no-nonsense language is one of the best ways to build trust between author and reader". -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:05, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fine on both counts. But I'll say that those reviews seem pretty negative to me, and, regardless, if you think that those kinds of reviews are fine to include in some cases, why not amend the policy to say so? If you've found in your experience that inclusion can improve an article, then we can benefit the whole site by encouraging that practice. I'd certainly vote to support such a proposal, if you say it improves the quality of our guides. ARR8 (talk | contribs) 18:11, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the need to amend the policy because I don't think the links violate the policy as it currently is. Does a review have to be wholly positive in order to avoid policy considering it "negative"? I think not; in fact, policy proscribes reviews that are too positive as touting. While the reviews of JT's you mention certainly didn't hold back on describing the place's drawbacks, there were several redeeming factors mentioned as well: "a decent selection of pastas, brick-oven pizzas, and main-course salads with a surprisingly ample slate of non-Italian options"; "if you like your drinks strong, you'll be pleased with the specialty cocktails". -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:32, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A truly impressive article! Great job AndreCarrotflower! I read through the main article, but will unfortunately not have time to look at the district articles in much detail in the near future. There were some things which I noticed when reading through it which might be worth considering, but they are nitpicks and I think that the article is worthy of star status as it is.
Is there any logical order to the ordering of districts, suburbs, and "Go next"? If so, it could be made explicit, and if not, these could perhaps be ordered alphabetically to make them easier to overview.
Is there any reason why the article mentions the april 2014 unemployment rate specifically? If it is representative, this could perhaps be expressed in more generic terms (e.g. "During the last XX years, the unemployment rates in Buffalo has been similar, or even slightly lower than the national and state averages"). If April 2014 is not representative, but an exception, the paragraph is rather misleading.
The article mentions the fares for one but not all the NAFTA buses. If the prices vary greatly between these rides, it could be good to give rates for all of them, making them easier to compare. If they all cost about the same, the article could probably just claim that bus fares vary between e.g. $2 and $3.
Many of the festivals in the list of recurring events lack dates. Of course, the exact dates may vary from one year to another, but you at least the article could state something general, like "the end of April". If they aren't already, they could also be ordered chronologically.
Which articles cover "Buffalo ski country" and the "Lake Erie beaches"? Links to those articles could also be included in the "Go next"-section. Speaking of the Go next-section, it could perhaps be clarified that Niagara Peninsula is a region, and that Fort Erie, Niagara Falls, Niagara-on-the-Lake are cities within this region.
While the article show a very impressive level of depth and detail, this may come at the expense of making it harder to overview, especially for readers who are not native English speakers. For example, I don't really know who/what Geoff Kelly and Artvoice is, but it seems to me as the mention of them encumbers reading more than it helps travelers. I trust Andres judgement on the relevancy of these details better than I trust my own, but if there are any details which you agree are expendable, I would consider removing them.
I agree that the article could do with a few more images.
Finally, while I agree that all attractions in huge city articles don't need coordinates, I also agree that it would be helpful if mentions of attractions also included an internal link to the relevant listing. The link to Anchor bar in the local specialties section is a good example, and could perhaps be modeled in mentions of other attractions as well. This does not only give the reader coordinates, but also makes it much easier to find information about e.g. prices and opening hours.
Thank you for the support. In response to some of your points:
The districts are listed in descending order of their interest to travellers (and also, incidentally, in the order in which I completed them), which I thought was intuitive enough not to specify.
I added the unemployment factoid in April 2014 and have not updated it since. Perhaps it's time to do so.
Regarding bus fare, quoting from the article: "Generally speaking, rides on a single bus or light rail vehicle now cost $2.00 regardless of length. The exception is the 'Enhanced Express' service [which costs] an additional 50¢ surcharge per trip."
The festivals are ordered chronologically, but thanks for catching the fact that some of them are missing dates. The Buffalo Niagara Film Festival has apparently merged with the Niagara Falls Film Festival and so can be de-listed. The National Garden Festival takes place over five weeks in midsummer and has been edited to clarify.
I agree with the point about internal links to individual listings, as with the Anchor Bar. I'll be working on that over the next little bit.
Comment. It's probably worth saying through the criticism, etc.: AndreCarrotflower, thanks for putting so much work into this article, not only in writing much of it, but also keeping its information up to date. If we had more contributors that did what you have done, then Wikivoyage would be transformed. While I think it's unlikely that Buffalo will fail nomination, if it does, I (and hopefully others in the community too) still appreciate the work you've done in expanding the information in our travel guide. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:37, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I believe this is the second time this has been nominated for star status. Now, though, according to ThunderingTyphoons!, the work is done and the article can be turned into a star article, and he hopes this can be done in time for the article's upcoming period on the Main page. More commentary, including the previous failed star nomination for the article, can be found at Talk:Bouzigues. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 03:41, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support Well, the article has many details, I think it is definitely ready, except that the sleep section is a bit empty if i would say.But other than that, it's ready to go. Arep Ticous02:12, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Arepticous: As I understand, Bouzigues is a small place, so there are probably not many options. In this case, three options are probably enough. If people can't find a place to stay they can go to the "go next" section to find a hotel in a nearby community. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:36, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's nowhere else apart from the self-catering options, which are mentioned but not listed. Per, Wikivoyage:Listings#Rental listings, it's a lot of hassle just to get one cottage listed, and once you do, there are numerous other options which could also be added, potentially leading to touting. I decided not to bother, but wouldn't discourage someone else from having a go.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:49, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that AndreCarrotflower said we needed at least five supports (it may have been six) for a star nomination. Therefore, this one, unfortunately, doesn't yet have enough support. We can always gather support, however, by informing people of the discussion. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:25, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's no magic number. In my opinion, perhaps a notice could be put in the pub to attract the attention of anyone who might not be aware of this nomination, but if no one else chimes in, I don't see the point of holding up this worthy nominee, which has my full support, any longer. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 21:29, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)Everyone who has taken part in this nomination, and the previous one (that was slushed in February) has now indicated their support. There's nothing else that needs fixing, improving or updating - and that's according to you guys as much as me. I am appreciative of everyone who has helped and lent their opinion to this nom, but it's time to get it over and done with now.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:35, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The obvious answer to why this article isn't yet Starworthy is the lack of a Wikivoyage-style map. Aside from that relatively easy fix, I'd be interested to hear others' feedback. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:22, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me, but I'm afraid I'm not going to give my judgement on this as I'm not native. However, I'll take care of Wikivoyage styled map. Will do it once this nominate garnish support votes. --Saqib (talk) 16:48, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Good work. It is a very detailed article, possibly even too detailed. It is missing a geo template to give a link to a full page map at the top of the article (and to appear on maps of articles). I think that there needs to be a paragraph near the start giving an overview of the itinerary. I had to read quite a bit to find that this was a tour by car, not on foot. I would also make it clear that this is mainly (or only) a tour of the exterior of churches - I had expected to be able to go inside all eighteen churches. A quick look at the area bus map suggests that a section of the route could be done by bus, and this maybe could be looked into. AlasdairW (talk) 22:39, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Since we're no longer requiring static maps for star status, should this article be reconsidered? This article now has a much better chance of reaching star status. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 21:08, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Although I see no problems with this page, after two years not a single support, suggest archiving this proposal. Can create again if feel deserves reconsidering. --Traveler100 (talk) 07:10, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather not archive it. The thing is, from past experience, I'm not sure my judgment should be trusted, because I'm apt to miss details, but I'd like anyone to mention any way in which this is lacking. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:24, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think the problem with it may be the opposite of what is lacking, but that there is too much content. I often think this is a problem with star nominations, and it may seem like I say it too often, but I think there is a reasonable length for star articles (around 25K-80K bytes), and articles outside of this range are generally not WV's best. I think this churches article is around 200-300K bytes, which is very long for an article just about specific kinds of sights in a specific part of a city. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:31, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Realistically, what’s the solution to that, other than cutting out valuable information? Yes, the article goes in depth and is written for travellers with specific interests, but that’s exactly why I didn’t include all this information in (the even longer) Buffalo/East Side. I’m all for trimming fat, but there’s no fat here - it’s all meat - and I hardly think we ought to be penalizing articles because the coverage is too good. Sometimes articles are long out of necessity. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:16, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know Buffalo geography, but is there perhaps a way we could split the article by section of the East Side? Or even divide by church's religious group? I fear the answer is no, but just asking in case that's an option. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 06:02, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'll vote to support for the sake of advancing the discussion. I'm not up to rereading the entire article right now, but my feeling is that outstanding articles should receive a commendation. I think one could quibble around the edges in regard to this article. For example, some of this could be edited slightly:
The wildly varying present-day statuses of these churches is another issue you'll be learning more about in this tour. While a good many of them continue as home to active religious congregations, others have been repurposed in a variety of ways for a new generation of East Siders, and still others remain abandoned and decaying or have been lost to the wrecking ball. The interiors of the churches that remain active (either as home to their original congregation, to a successor congregation, or as an oratory) can be visited at service times, which are listed in the main East Side article; the interiors of those that aren't are off limits to the public. However, the exteriors can be viewed anytime, as long as the buildings exist.
Maybe an argument could be made for:
"The current statuses of these churches vary wildly. While many continue to serve active congregations, some have been variously repurposed for a new generation of East Siders and others are abandoned and decaying or have been lost to the wrecking ball. The interiors of active churches can be visited at service times, which are listed in the main East Side article; interiors of inactive churches are off limits. However, the exteriors of existing building can be visited anytime."
But this is really small potatoes. Star articles don't have to be 100% ideal to everyone in every way. The only thing that gives me any real pause at all is the remark about part of this tour being doable by bus. If that's true, it should be mentioned. But really, objecting that an itinerary is too long? I think if I were actually following this itinerary, I'd be interested in reading the background the night before and the remarks about each church as I got there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:28, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The itinerary is doable by bus in theory, but in practice you'd spend far more time waiting around at bus stops than you would at the POIs. IMO it's not worth a mention. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:58, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support for partially the same reason that Ikan Kekek supported. I've glanced through and this article looks like it is full of detailed anecdotes about the history of various churches; the article consequently looks long, but it is really no different than a tour — if you wrote down everything a tour guide said in one tour, it would be a lot of content, but all appropriate. While I'm personally not a supporter of very long articles, a long article is much better than a short one that misses important information. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:41, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Counting AndreCarrotflower (who I doubt would oppose this nomination), we have four supports with no oppose votes. However, some concerns were addressed earlier in the article, so I'm not sure if we're quite yet ready to upgrade this one. But I'll do my best to gather some interest. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:49, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Although I'm not convinced it needs shortening, one way of "shortening" the article without actually removing any information would be to put some of the content behind a retractable list (à la the embassies of London). But which content? And how much? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:54, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, I think that only adds trouble to the nomination, though it's a good idea. While I would have liked a shorter article, AndreCarrotflower's argument has largely convinced me that the article shouldn't be shortened. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:56, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I intended "Historic Churches of Buffalo's East Side" to be the proper name of the tour, rather than a generic one, but I'm not going to go to the mat over a capital C. However, to head this hypothetical off at the pass, "East Side" is indeed the proper name of a Buffalo neighborhood, not just a vague directional designation, so those words should remain capitalized. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:43, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'd like to ask, is the reason that this article has been delayed in its star is due to fact that it reads more as an informational article about churches in Buffalo rather than an Itinerary? The reason for asking is that this is indeed an excellent star-worthy article, but in my view it's not an itinerary per se? (An itinerary follows a specific route) I might be more inclined to support if the route is shown on the map. Joshlama1 (talk) 12:39, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support for a star. A fine piece of work. It may not strictly be an itinerary as mentioned above, but it is a good guide to the topic. Well written, interesting and with a lot of relevant background. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 16:38, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nomination successful. There have been no serious objections in almost two years, and those that were made have been dealt with. Time to unfurl the star-spangled page banner.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:00, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Barring any blind spots which one tends to develop after working on something for a long time, I can't see any reason why this shouldn't get star status. When I started working on it in summer 2018, it was already a great Guide article, and I think I've improved it massively, if not to perfection then something close to it;-) But what do you think? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:02, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's no secret that I have a very high opinion of ThunderingTyphoons on a personal level as well as a great respect for his work as an editor. So, to avoid the appearance of bias, I figured the fairest thing I could do in this case is to go over the article with a fine-toothed comb and not rest until I found at least one thing to gripe about, and hopefully more than one. I've been searching and searching and, alas, I give up. "Perfection or something close to it" is an apt description. Support. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:32, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support. While I think this could be peer-reviewed by someone from York, from a Wikivoyage criteria pov it is an excellent article. Joshlama1 (talk) 00:36, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - it would be nice to get this nomination approved before the article is featured as DOTM (in September, according to the current schedule). Having said that, a certain (unknown) number of the listings may have to be removed and replaced once lockdown has been lifted, which probably does preclude the article from Star status until that's been done.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 14:42, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I see no good reason why we should keep this nomination on hold indefinitely for that reason. ThunderingTyphoons!, I have faith that you will update the article to reflect business closures, COVID-related and otherwise, as necessary. Until then, we should presume that businesses will reopen after the lockdown has ended unless they've announced otherwise, or unless there's some other evidence otherwise (e.g. FOR LEASE signs in shop windows, or I suppose in the UK the term is TO LET), just as we have always done. However, I do agree with SelfieCity that we should hold off on any new nominations. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:48, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It is a good article. Although it is about 10 years since I have spent any time in York, I think it is fairly accurate. I expect that some of the Eat or Sleep listings may not survive, but there are plenty so just removing those with closed signs is easy. AlasdairW (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It looks good but I see some room for improvement. The images are not great - I didn't see the point of the Sel Roti picture unless several places sell it, and I would like to see some general views of the town centre to get a "feel" for the place. The railway station listings could be expanded, with links to WP and National Rail. AlasdairW (talk) 21:36, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This article is among the best WV has to offer, and although more/better illustrations could potentially enhance the article, I think it's ready to be a star as it is. —The preceding comment was added by 82.132.185.65 (talk • contribs)
Thanks for your support, IP user.
Re the other points, those are definitely things I can do, but I have a feeling I'll need to take some photos and upload them to Commons, as those that are on there of the town centre are outdated. I will be unavailable to do that in the next two weeks, however, but please be assured it hasn't been forgotten and will get done. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:20, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
IP addresses are fairly easy to spoof, particularly with open proxies, and the circumstantial evidence (writing style, use of support/oppose templates rather than prose, obvious previous familiarity with WV, previous instances of block evasion i.e. the above comment) is pretty overwhelming. I've blocked the IP user on that basis, not to say that will do much good. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:06, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Great article! I read through it carefully, and I could only notice a few minor things which perhaps could be improved or expanded. None of them are major concerns, and I don't think it would take much time for anyone to who know Farnborough to deal with them.
Even though it doesn't seem too hard to get around in Farnborough I always prefer when there are a few words about orientation of a destination. Just a few words to help you get a 'feel' for the place before you actually go there. Are there any notable landmarks or natural boundaries? What parts of the city could be considered central?
How long does the different commuter-journeys listed in "Get in" take, and what do they cost?
I didn't really understand the sentence "Less useful is the 'secret' car park on the roof of Sainsbury's...". In what way is it a 'secret' car park? It rather sounds like it is not a car park at all?
Why are the black sheds famous?
I didn't really understand the St Michaels Abbey directions. What gates are they mentioning? If it is the Abbey gates, shouldn't that rather be mentioned in the opening hours field?
St Peters Church lack opening hours, but I couldn't find any on their website.
How does one get to North Camp? How far is it? And is there any good explanation why the southern suburb is called North camp?
A few words about where to eat as a vegetarian or a vegan?
Are there many or few chain restaurants? The lede claims that they are few, but the budget-lede lists 9, which by my counting is rather many for a small town.
The last three bullet-points in the "Further afield" section doesn't quiet fit in with the others as they are types of destinations, rather than destinations. I think that it looks a bit odd. Could they be rewritten in into a lede perhaps?
I also saw that User:Davisonio is a docent for Farnborough, and I would like to hear your take on the star nomination. Do you think that the article is complete, or are there any gaps in its coverage of Farnborough? Thank you for a terrific guide! MartinJacobson (talk) 19:47, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't seem as if any valid user has voted on this article yet. My vote is support; while the pictures could be better, I don't think that is problematic enough that it should stop the article from becoming a star article. The possible improvements that were mentioned by MartinJacobson are valid, and I think they're good things to add, but not including these things does not bring down the quality of the article enough to prevent it from reaching star status, IMO. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 23:27, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Beautiful article at this point already. I'll be happy to see more pictures. Hope you are able to upload them soon, TT. Ibaman (talk) 00:49, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The question now is this: is the article ready yet for star status despite the concerns, or should we wait until the concerns are addressed, e.g. the pictures? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:38, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Now that my work on York is mostly complete, I've started addressing the points raised by MartinJacobson above in edits, even explaining the secret car park! Thanks for the great feedback, by the way:)
Regarding the Eat section, there are plenty of fast food chains for sure, but "proper" restaurant chains (i.e. with waiter service and actual cooking talent) are comparatively scarce, compared to plenty of great independents. Perhaps this distinction doesn't matter to a traveller, but I think there is a difference between the likes of Subway / Maccies and Pizza Express / Wagamama (sushi).--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is what a modern star article should read like. I think the criticism that has been mentioned in has been addressed, and although I would like to see current pictures, from a check in the commons, I don't think that can be taken as a not-support. Joshlama1 (talk) 12:55, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I may be biased as the principal contributer to this article, but I believe that it's comprehensive and well written. I recently cut a lot of the bloat and tightened the prose. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 16:42, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's looking superb now! Did you only just add the "If your time is limited..." list at the top of See? That's a good feature I didn't notice before.
One thing I thought of before but didn't mention as it wasn't nearly as important as the other stuff: the article could either do with some more photos or the photos already present should be spread out, as there's no image of any kind from Eat all the way to the bottom of Cope. This is kind of a nitpick, but Stars are supposed to be perfect :P
I would definitely encourage others to take a look, as there may be other things to fix that I haven't spotted. But as far as I'm concerned, once the photo discrepancy is addressed, this is a star article.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:49, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Oh, and yes I added "If your time is limited..." to make the options less overwhelming after you mentioned, 'dread as in "this is going to take me ages to get through, I can't be bothered to read all this."' --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 21:29, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is certainly a difficult time to keep articles up to date, but this article is excellent. I can't see anything missing — there are even static maps in "get in/get around". --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 14:40, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support (as original nominator). Hi, folks. It's been three weeks. I'm not sure whether two non-nominator supports are enough to upgrade to star. I don't believe there are any unresolved objections or issues. Please let me know where we go from here. Thanks. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 03:36, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Although it's not technically necessary, I would like to see some more opinions from different Wikivoyagers, so will once again ask for comment. The only purpose of this would be to absolutely ensure the article really is perfect. As there's nothing in the rules that requires a certain number of people to support, if the RfC hasn't attracted additional support or critique within a couple of days, then we can proceed with making it a star.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:35, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think this article fits the requirements for star status. There's a variety of good quality images in the article to enhance the reader's understanding, there's both a static and dynamic map, and most sections are basically comprehensive. The listings are well detailed where need be, and the ones that aren't are fairly self explanatory: for example, Hobbies Plus is a model train store, and there's not much more to say. I've also gone through the article to abbreviate "Road" and "Street" where needed and sort listings in alphabetical order, and so I think it's pretty good when it comes to the manual of style. And not to toot my own horn too much, but I think the prose is easy to understand and helpful for travellers. --LivelyRatif
ication (talk) 00:51, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Looks pretty damn comprehensive for what it is. That said, a couple sections look like they should be either expanded or omitted. "Cope", for instance, is currently a one-line section. Per Wikivoyage:Article skeleton templates/Sections#Cope, such sections tend to be a bit heterogeneous/miscellaneous, and gives examples of things a traveller may be interested in that you could expand that section with -- for instance, religious institutions and beauty services. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 10:37, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I added "Cope", I think, just before nominating this, and I'm not entirely sure why I forgot to add in religious institutions. Anyway, I've now added them in. Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure of their service times, apart from St Andrew's Uniting Church, as they have a website. I'll try looking into other services but I'm not aware of any (for example, Stratford used to have a hairdresser but no longer does). --LivelyRatification (talk) 12:05, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Very close - apart from the three questions I asked in hidden comments, some of the listings need more detail: opening hours should be provided for every single listing, as should room rates for Sleep listings. Overall, a great small town article.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:34, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've fixed the 3 issues you've raised, and I'm currently getting on top of adding opening hours and room rates. Hopefully it should be done by the end of the day: need to get opening hours for the op shop and rates for the motel. Will keep you updated.--LivelyRatification (talk) 23:42, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, looks great now. Could you put a note in 'Sleep' stating that accommodation options are limited to those three (if that's indeed the case)? Also, is it me or do all the phone numbers look different now? Shouldn't there some be spacing in them somewhere? Other than those minor points, I'm ready to support.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:33, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, didn’t see this. I’ll add a note in the sleep section accordingly. @SHB2000: was the one who changed the phone numbers, and speaking purely aesthetically and subjectively, I preferred the original formatting, but this formatting I believe is for internationalisation purposes. That being said, I think there should be a gap between +61, which is the country code, and the rest of the digits. I’ve pinged SHB in case they have any objection to me making that change (won’t do it right now as I’m on mobile) --LivelyRatification (talk) 05:41, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Tickets aren't actually available in Stratford, oddly enough, so if you want to take the train back to Melbourne, you have to get the ticket from Sale train station" – or buy a return ticket in Melbourne, right? I'm guessing this is only a problem if you arrive in Stratford without already having a ticket out, but please confirm. If I'm understanding correctly, let's add "if you don't already have a ticket" or something like that to clarify.
"The reserve also has an oval and benches which may be used by local groups." I'm not sure what this means. Is the point that it's used by Gunaikurnai people for meetings, or that it's used by some other groups?
Where does the Arts Trail begin and end – how do I get to the trailhead?
More details needed about the Shakespeare on the River Festival – where in town is it held? How much do tickets cost? Are the performances any good?
Apparently one of the accommodation options is located at a wildlife shelter. Can the wildlife shelter be visited by travellers who aren't staying at the hotel? Is it worth a visit?
The banner doesn't do much for me – can we find a more attractive banner photo?
I can't tell how thorough the article's coverage is, but I don't see any red flags. It's enjoyable to read, and piques my interest in visiting Stratford if I ever find myself in Victoria. —Granger(talk·contribs) 06:17, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your questions! You’re correct about the ticket thing, it’s only an issue if you don’t buy a return ticket. Granted, that section is probably biased somewhat by the fact that I found myself in that position, but it could be clarified. I’m unaware if the Gunaikurnai people use it specifically, but I am aware that local community groups have held events there. Perhaps it’s a bit redundant, but I thought it might be good to put there to inform readers it may be busy. I have no idea about the Arts Trail’s specific route, and when I visited the Segue Cafe in April, they told me they didn’t currently have a map of it, but you can access the Avon River from a path at the corner of McMillan and McFarlane Street. Where exactly the events are held for the festival vary (I’ve unfortunately never had the chance to see it), but events are mainly held in the Stratford Courthouse, which is in the same building as the Segue Cafe. Prices do also vary, and I’m wary of providing prices based on this year as they are prone to change. I’ve never visited the shelter, so again, I can’t comment. As for the banner photo, I’m sure there are some alternatives that I could try, either based off what’s already on Commons or from my own personal photo gallery. --LivelyRatification (talk) 06:47, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Can’t use CropTool right now for obvious reasons but here are some photos I’ve found from my gallery — and , would either one of these make a better header? Also fun fact about my userpage banner is that Tyers Street is actually misspelled on the image as Tyres (as in car tyres) Street. --LivelyRatification (talk) 07:12, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Support - the article looks very good. You have to zoom out a bit to see all of the listings and the mapshape, and the 'Shakespeare on the River Festival' listing says that the date that the listing was last changed needs updating - I don't know why this is, but it could be that the listing was updated but the date wasn't? Other than this, I think that the article is fine. 82.3.185.1218:20, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The map thing is by design. It's zoomed into the main street as that's where all but 2 of the listings are. I have no idea why the listing is doing that, that's really weird. --LivelyRatification (talk) 20:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Close Another article which was started this year. A few points:
Unless the town is world famous for roof tiles, it needs a new banner.
Understand could have a paragraph describing the town today - population, major employers etc.
By train needs proper information on getting tickets if your journey starts in Stratford. Phone Vline and find out - I expect that you can either buy your ticket in some local shop, or board the train without a ticket and buy it at the other end - there may also be signs in the station that explain. At the moment the article seems to suggest that you have to walk to Sale, which is clearly nonsense.
I think see and do could be expanded. The Arts Trail needs more details - enough to walk around without picking up the tour from a cafe which is only open until 2:30PM.
What is in the Stratford Highway Park? Swallow Lagoon Nature Conservation Reserve?
WP mentions a model railway shop - is that still there?
The Medical Centre is probably better in Stay Safe than Cope, then it can be in the same para as the hospital.
I don't mind a new banner, there are plenty of possible images we could choose. That's a good suggestion in regards to population and industry, which I can work on. You can't buy your ticket in any local shop in Stratford, and you can't buy it at the other end, I've taken this train journey as recently as last month. The only way to take the train from Stratford is to get the ticket from a ticket outlet before your journey, of which none are in Stratford. The nearest one is in Sale at the train station. There is an option to have your ticket mailed to you, but for obvious reasons I didn't think that would be helpful for travellers.
I would ideally have liked to expand the Arts Trail listing on my last visit, but the cafe didn't actually have a tour on site. I will work on expanding that if I can, as I've never actually walked the trail itself. I've not been to either the Highway Park nor the Conservation Reserve, which are both outside the town of Stratford itself, but from what I can find they're both nature reserves, which I suppose could be interesting, but I don't think are terribly important given I hadn't heard of them before this and didn't see them in any of the tourist information I'd checked in both Stratford or on the internet. The model railway shop is there, and has a listing. --LivelyRatification (talk) 02:41, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Tried to address as many of the issues as I could @AlasdairW: as it turned out, while I haven't walked the Arts Trail in one go, I've walked most of it before, and I managed to find a map of the trail. I've added a new banner, information about population + industry, and moved the medical centre. Are there any other issues of concern? --LivelyRatification (talk) 03:43, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
According to Public Transport Victoria "If you get on at an unstaffed V/Line station or roadside coach stop, you can buy a ticket from the train conductor or coach driver." However I couldn't find this on the Vline website, or details of whether the conductors took cards or cash. So I think this is best resolved by asking by email or phone. AlasdairW (talk) 21:12, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Very good article. I made a few small edits for style and such. The only question I thought of is why I'd want to know the addresses of the police station and fire brigade, since if I needed their services, I'd just call the emergency number that's presumably the same nationwide. But it's no harm to include that information. I'd love for Powers to read the article because he's so good at seeing small details I miss, but I will be happy to support this nomination whenever others agree. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:02, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I almost forgot: I do wonder what the purpose is for having a static and a dynamic map in the article. If there were only one map, maybe there would be no need to put any thumbnails on the left, which is not so traditional on this site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:03, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind removing the dynamic map, personally. Just thought both might be useful for the reader, given Knob Reserve and Deep Creek Gully are outside frame. --LivelyRatification (talk) 02:51, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The dynamic map is still available from the icon in the upper right corner, or from any listing marker (do they link to different maps?). I don't know whether our readers know/understand/will find out that the dynamic map is available if it is not shown. An explicit link from the caption of the static map would work, wouldn't it? –LPfi (talk) 11:07, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The map from the icon in the upper right corner is in a different style than the ones produced using {{mapframe}}. Also, these are currently broken, with all controls missing. Nelson Ricardo (talk) 12:31, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Because there's no obvious reason for having two. I have a preference for static maps, all things being equal, but that's sort of neither here nor there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:44, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The dynamic map using toolforge is different from the one using {{mapframe}} completely, and I'd argue it's worse in almost every way. Let's rather introduce the same thing as we have for {{Regionlist}} (regionInteractiveMap)...? And probably let's move this branch of discussion to TP? -- andree.sk(talk) 14:56, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am flattered, Ikan, though also a bit out of practice. Fortunately, it's a short article.
I found the description of the Arts Trail route very confusing, even with the map adjacent to the text. In particular: the description of using Raymond to get to Merrick *and* McMillan, even though McMillan doesn't intersect Raymond; the use of "opposite the Avon River" (opposite from what?); the apparent glossing-over of the McMillan discontinuity (it says you must cross Avon Park to get to McMillan, but you're already on McMillan); and the terminus of the route on Davis, which doesn't seem to intersect Princes Hwy at all (I think Dixon was meant?).
The price for "Concession" at the pool is confusing, though probably not so to an experienced Australian visitor. Where I come from, a concession is a retailer (usually selling food) inside another attraction. But it's a food stand, what does the single price get you?
The Post Office should be in Connect not Buy.
The Avon Hotel doesn't have rooms? Only food and drink?
The description of the Princes Freeway is confusing -- in what way is it classifiable as a freeway if it has houses and traffic lights?
Images (and the dynamic map and the climate graph) crowd the upper part of the article. Any way to pare those down?
I've fixed, or at least tried to, the first three issues. Yes, the Avon Hotel only has food and drink, oddly enough. There's nothing on their site about accomodation, and I've been there quite a few times and never seen anything about accomodation, and "hotel" can just as often refer to "pub" as "accomodation" in rural Gippsland. The description of the Princes Freeway seems unnecessary to me. Yes, it goes through some towns, and so it does have houses and traffic lights, but that doesn't seem particularly notable. As for images, I'm not really sure. Maybe the train image could be removed? I've sized it down a tad. Thanks so much for your feedback, BTW, I do really appreciate it. --LivelyRatification (talk) 02:41, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That thing's only notable as its the world's only freeway to have traffic lights and houses. While the US' have Interstate routes that aren't freeways, they're not call it, unlike this. SHB2000 (talk|contribs|en.wikipedia) 07:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, this sounds like the same thing. If it has lights and houses, it has at-grade intersections, which means it's not limited-access, which means it's not a freeway, is it? Powers(talk)23:52, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, parts of it is a freeway and when your going 110km/h, a sign out of nowhere randomly tells you to slow down to 60 and boom, still a freeway but with houses, and traffic lights. That was my experience. If Google Maps tells you it's Princes Highway, that follows a different corridor (C101) and this is Princes Freeway. SHB2000 (talk|contribs|en.wikipedia) 03:41, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support. In my opinion this article is good enough to be at star status. If any of TT's comments still apply, obviously fixing those minor issues would make it even better, but to me it looks good enough to promote to star status, even now. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:00, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The number of support votes only counts if there aren't any legitimate outstanding objections made by people who haven't yet supported. I'm too lazy to check whether all issues have been addressed, but if someone could do that and verify there aren't, then the article could be promoted early.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:04, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's been about a month since I created this article, but I've wanted and have researched all about this park for three months now. I've been to all the mainland sections of the park, and will plan to make some trips to the some of these islands soon (Fort Denison and Goat Island). While I believe there'll probably be a couple of people who'd be using this article for the long weekend (NSW), it may not be enough at this stage, there's a variety of good quality images in the article to enhance the reader's understanding, there's a dynamic map, and most sections are basically comprehensive. The listings are well detailed where need be, and the ones that aren't are pretty self-explanatory: for example, the The Hornby Keepers Cottage is just where the old former lighthouse keepers used to stay, and there's not much more to say about it. I've also gone above and beyond and added some restaurants in Manly, 1km from the park, just so those who want to eat don't have to take the bus to Q-station, which can take up to an hour (my experiences). I've also arranged them in alphabetical order and if I use 82's table, here's a checklist:
Requirements
Done?
Guidelines
Done?
Tourist-style map
Done
Meets all of the criteria in the "Requirements" section
Close. Even details that seem trivial could be of interest in the listings and I think something should be included in every one for it to be a star article (only needs to be a sentence or two). A little more information and it will be ready for star status. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:56, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also @SelfieCity:, if I've ever used 24 hour clock in the article, could you please let me know. It's sort of hard when my personal preference is 24hr, but living in a society where 12 is used (and you may notice my hatred of 12 in my edit summaries). SHB2000 (talk|contribs|en.wikipedia) 03:19, 13 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: the section "Landforms" is the only section where the landform names are not in alphabetical order. Another comment: the map that belongs to the color scheme is missing. Is such a map under development and will it be placed here after completion? The {{mapframe}} map does not show those colors. --FredTC (talk) 13:12, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not any more. And from the checklist: "static would look ugly". But I cannot see the colours on the dynamic map either. Having the colours without showing them on the map is confusing, and having the colours on the map would make it easier to get a grip on where the different places are. –LPfi (talk) 15:32, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@FredTC: - the reason why it's not in alphabetical order is because of the significance of North and South Head as well as Vaucluse park. But I'll move it. Also, I'm not too much of a technical person, so I'll just remove the colours (and the fact that putting colours on the map may disorient some readers.) SHB2000 (talk|contribs|en.wikipedia) 04:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@SHB2000: - I understand the reason, but I'm glad you made the changes. That made the article easier to use (at least for me). However, thanks to that it also disclosed a few little inconsistencies, like: Fort Denison/Muddawahnyuh (in Landforms), Fort Denison/Pinchgut Island (in Get in), Pinchgut Island (in See) and Fort Denison (in Eat).
About the map: you are right, putting colors to the map would not improve the map, that has so many markers. I have seen articles that have more than one {{mapframe}} map. A map that has only one marker for each Landform could be usefull.
BTW: do you think more See-listings will be added? There is a problem when there are over 100 of them. TIP: I see several See listings that are in the gray parts of the map, so, they are not in the park. There is a {{listing | type=vicinity | ...}} that could be used for things that are not really in the park, if the >100 situation would occur. --FredTC (talk) 11:40, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have been working on this one a long time. Though the site is still being surveyed in the outer reaches, the page has pretty much all the information needed and currently available. A certain amount of stylistic development has occurred over the years on dive site articles, and I am interested in feedback regarding how fit it is for purpose. It will be some years before the surveying is complete, as I get to Whittle 10 to 15 times in a good year, and consider my time well spent if I get 500m of good contour or perimeter on a dive. The popular areas are adequately mapped – I am mostly exploring places no-one has dived, or at least no one has dived and reported on diving there. I have used the checklist for dive site star assessment used on several previous star dive sites on the article talk page, and there is a little video clip there showing how the surveying has progressed over time. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 15:46, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Close some comments from me.
There's a lot of images about marine life. Should they be put in a gallery?
Fair question, but how would a gallery improve matters? Do you mean a gallery section on the page or a gallery sub-page? I have tried to place the images at or near the relevant text, but variability of page size can affect what the reader sees on the day. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 08:28, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I just counted. Only four of the images are about marine life. Most are about local features which happen to be overgrown with marine life and are placed as close as possible to the relevant text, but may show up further down the page due to rendering variations on different creens. I have doubts that putting those four into a gallery will improve the appearance, but willing to try if you think it worth the effort. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 14:41, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In the Get in section, it says you can only access by boat. Do you need a private boat, are there tours, and maybe linking to some of the operators may also be beneficial for the traveller
If you read the main article on Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay you will see that there is are large sections giving detailed explanation of all the stuff that is common to the whole area or major subdivisions of it. Whittle Rock is classified under offshore dive sites of False Bay. There are also sub-articles on each of the launch sites mentioned (already linked), and a section on the charter boat services, (not currently linked). This has been standard for many years, as the alternative is to say basically the same thing on hundreds of dive site articles. In a nutshell, there are charter boats which can take a traveller to any of the dive sites in the region, and they vary from time to time, and most operators only launch from a limited number of launch sites, which limits the dive sites they visit. Visits to a dive site also depend on the weather and are generally not predictable or bookable more than two to four days in advance. This information is centralised in the main article, but it may be useful to link back to those sections from the "Get in" section. This will be a new feature, and may be a significant improvement in utility for the traveller if it works and is allowed. So I will give it a try. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 08:28, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, makes sense and agree that information is best centralised than duplicated. I was probably biased here since I just went straight to reading the article as opposed to a normal reader who hypothetically would be navigating thru the breadcrumbs. --SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta.wikimedia)08:45, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nevertheless I think it should be discoverable no matter how you get to the page. I will be working on this and will let you know when I think it has been adequately addressed. This is valuable feedback. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 09:14, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The only dynamic map listed is in the § Nearby section. Should the static map be made toggleable? (ping me if you need some assistance with it)
Do you think that an additional dynamic map will materially improve the article? Are you suggesting that the static map which provides a large amount of very useful information for dive planning be toggleable with a dynamic map which would show basically what is shown on the map in the "Nearby" section? •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 08:28, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SHB2000, thanks, that is a really cool feature. Knowing the name of the template is half the problem solved. I will look at it and maybe tinker a bit to see what can be done. I might want to put the mobilemax map link back in the caption. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 11:18, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is an old bug in the wikimedia software mentioned here that affects the function on mobile. The question now, as I see it, is whether to optimise for mobile or desktop, or make a kludge so that both mobile and desktop users can get what they need, at the cost of possible redundancy of images. Does anyone know if there is a way to markup content so that it only gets shown on desktop XOR mobile? Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 11:31, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The video is on the talk page, which is not subject to the same rules as mainspace. I am not aware of a ban on videos on talk pages. If there is one please link me to it. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 08:28, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wikivoyage:Links to Wikipedia stipulates that: "Links to the relevant Wikipedia and Wikidata pages should be added to these fields in listings whenever possible. Inline links to Wikipedia are otherwise generally not used in mainspace pages on this site, to avoid their being mistaken for internal links to other Wikivoyage articles." I suggest that a link in the "Read" section displayed as "False Bay on Wikipedia" is unlikely to cause any confusion whether clicking the link would leave Wikivoyage, and also that it is a form of listing, where external links, including links to Wikipedia, are explicitly permissible and recommended. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 08:56, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
LPfi, The link to False Bay has been there since before I started the Whittle Rock article on Wikipedia. It seems that I forgot to link it from here. Both these suggestions for additional links are good, but as there is a lot of relevant and interesting stuff in the False Bay article, I see no harm in keeping it too. It is still a short section.•••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 09:49, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just afraid it might be read instead of our False Bay article, which is the reason why Wikipedia links are discouraged. Linking to the Read section of that article and linking Wikipedia from there seems more useful. I still trust your judgement. –LPfi (talk) 11:08, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't know we still have a False Bay article. Apparently it was kept as a valid region article, and is about the cities in the bay area, not the water itself, so not really relevant for information about the offshore diving environment, whereas the Wikipedia articles fill in the gaps which would be too detailed or otherwise out of scope for a dive-site article. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 14:23, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK and oops. I used False Bay (also) as a shorthand for Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay, so what I said might have been confusing. I figured that the Wikipedia article on the False Bay would be as relevant for those diving other parts of the area. That's just based on the names, though, as I cannot judge what is relevant for a diver. –LPfi (talk) 18:44, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Something that is not concerning but thought I might mention it, but some of the text in the static map is too small to read and I have to zoom in. As static maps aren't a requirement for star articles anymore, not an issue to fix.
The map can be zoomed to show all useful detail at a legible size. There is a lot of very useful detail on the map which cannot be shown any other way that I can think of. Increasing the text size enough to read at the displayed size will make the map extremely cluttered and possibly unusable. It is of course possible to add zoomed in map excerpts for each area discussed, but I think that would be overdoing it since the detail is all available by zooming the current map, and having to update dozens of excerpts every time the map is updated would be a bit impracticable. If there is a way to make the map zoomable inside a constant size frame like the dynamic maps I would like to know how to do that as it would be a great option. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 08:28, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps the possibility of zooming should be mentioned, perhaps with a link to instructions. I don't see any way to zoom, but to go via the Commons page and use the browser's zoom function. The options at Commons are limited: 2,560 × 1,811 px is still a bit small, 14,040 × 9,930 px is a bit much. Firefox's zoom function also is not that good: from 30% to 500% (of the full resolution or the resolution that fits the window), while I'd like a broader range for this image. I think I'd use some hack or external software if I were to use the article. Is it just me missing something obvious? The Commons image viewer? –LPfi (talk) 09:41, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
LPfi I entirely agree with you. It is a bit of a problem not having an intermediate resolution. The full resolution prints out as a very nice paper map on AO, which was the intention for the large file size. Desktop and high end smartphones will read the full resolution, and you can zoom in as far as anyone would reasonably want to go, but many cell phones will not. I don't know what to do about it.•••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 14:23, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have put links into the map caption for the two highest resolution versions, but I don't really like it as a work around. I will make some enquiries at commons and see if other resolutions could be made available. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 18:31, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is enough just to specify that resolution for the image and preview the result. The servers would create the requested file and save it for future use, available through the file description page. –LPfi (talk) 18:47, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
LPfi, That should work, but there seems to be a limit below the needed resolution. There is a bug report about it open on Phabricator, and I am waiting for a result, I may have to work around it. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 06:13, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to be a Debian default limit of 3200px for width and height (amongst others) for the ImageMagick converter. It looks like I will have to upload a manually resized image under another filename and link to that. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 06:53, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have uploaded a lower resolution image for mobile and linked in the caption. It uploads on my phone and zooms in to adequate resolution for text. YMMD. let me know if it also works for you. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 07:25, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that should work, will check later. I am a bit confused though: "32KP" would seem to mean 32,000 px rather than 3,200 px. Perhaps it is the memory limit that is the limiting factor, and that varies according to algorithms used etc., so hard to translate to a specific size. Anyway, it seems the limit is too small, and the new upload should be a sufficient workaround. –LPfi (talk) 20:16, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are right, I misread that. Confirmation bias I guess, as 3.2KP would have fitted in perfectly with my experimental data. Also my eyes not great for small print. So it goes... Maybe I will dig a little deeper. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 08:05, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support I see information and details about the region for every angle of the destination, up to this contributor's usual high standard of dive articles. Since there's a static map and it's a dive guide, the lack of coordinates for POIs doesn't concern me. I think this is another one of our star quality dive guide articles and therefore support its nomination. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 22:01, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support SelfieCity, but which POIs sre you referring to? As far as I know, all from this site, (the drop points for the dive spots and the anchors with known positions) have "Do" marker coordinates listed, complete with text [Hdd°mm.mmm'] format positions, which is the local standard for GPS work, and can be seen on the zoomable "Nearby" section map with grey markers. It is the nature of offshore coordinates to be on a featureless background of sea, so I have not displayed them in the "Understand" section of the article, though it would be trivially easy to add another map if there is consensus that it is sufficiently helpful in some way. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 13:11, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SelfieCity, Now you have got me thinking. Do you mean having "Do" markers for all of the PoIs listed in the "Topography" section? If I did that instead of listing them under "Positions" and just describe the general position of the reef in the bay in "Position", I could then put "See" markers in the "Features" section for the anchors, with a short description and photo where available. I rather like the idea. It would be a new format for dive sites but should not take too long to arrange, most of the groundwork is already done.•••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 13:26, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have started to rearrange based on the idea above, and I think it will be good. It may take a day or two for the basic reshuffle, and there may be a bit of unforeseeable consequences, so a few more days may be required before it is stable again. I will post to let you know, but feel welcome to comment on the work in progress. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 15:34, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SelfieCity, Dive site drop points would be points of interest, as would major features one might want to go look at, like the assorted anchors at this site. Points of interest is an adequate generic term, I would think. Anyway they are all now united with their geolocation markers and show up on the dynamic map against a featureless background of sea. One day maybe I will find out how to overlay my bathymetric charts on the OSM and get them to work as a background layer. It must be possible, but I don't know how to do it. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 11:41, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think I have addressed all outstanding issues, to my satisfaction, at least. Please let me know if they are not to your satisfaction too.
I think I have found a suitable workaround for the map toggling problem on mobile.
The toggleable map now only displays on desktop, and clicking on the map takes you to the high resolution map the usual way.
An alternative map with a caption link to the not-quite-so high-resolution map that downloads reliably on mobile, now displays only on mobile, so it works as well as currently possible for both platforms.
Peter (Southwood), that's what I have in mind when we discussed in lounge. However, the implementation shall be manged inside the template, not in the body of the article, because an editor "has the right" to not be familiar with HTML tag and CSS classes.
Last thing, in my opinion is useless to state "Click here for higher resolution...", because every image can be clicked to make it bigger. Furthermore the URL you have added, doesn't help at all the template implementation. --Andyrom75 (talk) 11:37, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Andyrom 75, Now that I know how to do it, coding a template is practicable, and will make it easier for all to use. I am one of those editors who is not very familiar with HTML and CSS, and getting this done was at least a full day's work altogether, since at first I had no idea of if or how or it could be done or even what to start looking for. Saving myself and the next person all that hassle is totally a good thing in my book. I was thinking of two templates: Template:Mobile only and Template:Desktop only, since those names should be easy to remember or even guess. Do you have any suggestions about the url? I don't understand the problem. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 11:59, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I should explain why I did that, and maybe you can suggest a better way. In mobile view, if you click on the image, a low res version is loaded and does not zoom in enough to read the map text - you have to click your way through to Commons and then select the 7kpx wide file. Some people dont know you can do that. The url in the caption links directly to the high resolution original image file which does zoom in enough to read the text, but takes more bandwith. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 12:27, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Andyrom 75, I had the less ambitious and more versatile intention to make the more generic templates which could be used in a wide range of applications, including wrapping Template:Regionlist for only desktop display. It appears from my experiment that this should be possible. I am already experimenting further, Template:Mobile only appears to work as intended, and manages fine with the debated url, and I am about to start on Template:Desktop only. I will report back here what I find out. Having the function/s inherent in Template:Regionlist may have advantages as it will not require the user to know about these problems and is therefore more user-friendly. In many cases there will be no issue with the resolution problem I have, but sometimes this problem does occur, so best if it can be accommodated. Allowing a null alternative for mobile display in Template:regionlist should work. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 14:02, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Peter (Southwood), in your way, everyone can change the output, so it's not flexibility, but anarchy:-) The right way to do it, is to change the template. In this way we'll avoid to introduce two more templates and a more elaborated syntax. Furthermore the change will be transparent to any editor. --Andyrom75 (talk) 16:12, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Andyrom 75, As long as we can do what needs to be done to provide what the traveller needs, I am not too fussy. Likewise as long as standardisation does not prevent us from providing what the traveller needs, not too fussy. I favour utilitarian standardization over Procrustean standardization. However I do not have the skills to make the standardised template work, so I will use what is available until Template:Regionlist is available to do what we need it to do. Ideally that would be for it to work as intended on mobile, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 16:23, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Andyrom 75, I don't object to standardising output provided that it is adequately functional and available. I prefer less optimal tools if they exist to theoretically better tools that do not exist or are crippled by something we cant fix. I would prefer to continue using the templates Mobile only and Desktop only until a better template is available. When that is the case I no longer care whether those templates are discarded as redundant, because I was able to get the job done. As an engineer, I tend to be pragmatic. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 18:18, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Pbsouthwood, I still disagree on the approach but I admire how you are proud of being an engineer, I'm not able to do the same:-D Jokes a part, I've modified the template as explained above. --Andyrom75 (talk) 20:05, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Andyrom 75, I assume by "the template" you modified, you refer to Template:Regionlist. I will take a look and see if it will do what I need. I am not sure exactly what it is that you mean by "still disagree on the approach", but that may become clear if it has any practical effect on anything. It is not so much that I am proud of being an engineer, but that I recognise that reality does not always match up with preferred policies and that perfection at an unpredictable future time is the enemy of good enough for now. Getting the job done often requires compromises. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 02:09, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Andyrom 75, I have checked the function of the template on desktop and mobile for Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Whittle Rock. On desktop it is fine, when one clicks on the map it opens on highest resolution and the text is clearly legible. On mobile when one clicks on the map it opens at the largest thumbnail, which does not zoom up enough to clearly read the map text. This is not standardising the output, the mobile user gets a degraded experience. From personal discussion with users, it appears that most users that I have spoken to access the map on mobile, often when out at sea on a boat, and need to read the map text. How does the user know that there is a higher resolution version available but they must click through to Commons to find it? •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 02:46, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think the fixed image width now used for the mobile view is causing the hatnote to render in a narrow column on the left side, which did not happen on my phone with the thumbnail at default size. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 04:08, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Pbsouthwood, sorry for the ambiguity, I meant that I disagree on using the two templates you created, in my opinion both shall be avoided for all the reasons explained above.
Regarding the hatnote, this is the normal behavior of the text that in Wikimedia projects surround the images but the DIV tag you used forced a different behavior. Also in this case there are two different standard approaches to be used. The first is the one commonly used in en:voy that consist in applying the template:see also at the beginning of the section (in you case is enough before the image). The second, commonly used in it:voy is to use the template:clear after the image. Andyrom75 (talk) 06:50, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Andyrom 75, Ok thanks, I now understand the hatnote behaviour, I will go with the en: standard. it will push the image down a little in the desktop view, but not enough to be a problem. Clear below the image would have big influence on the appearance of desktop view. That narrow column of text beside the image is poorly legible and looks bad, so must be avoided, but a huge whitespace on wide screens would be as bad, maybe worse. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 07:10, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Pbsouthwood, yw. If now the template is inline with your needs I suggest to broaden the discussion and check if on the other articles there's no negative impact (i.e. remain the same or improved). When all is fine and confirmed, the content of this sandbox template can be poured into the official one. Cheers, --Andyrom75 (talk) 08:08, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Andyrom 75, Thanks for your efforts so far. The template appears to be significantly improved for cases where it is not necessary to link to the high resolution original file from mobile, and I think that is a MediaWiki problem, so I cannot reasonably demand that you fix it, if indeed it is fixable from our side. I will still have to find some way to work around this, as I am aware of several users who have not been able to work out that a high res file even exists, and think that the one they get is all that is available. This limits the utility of the mobile site to most of the users who use it for these dive sites with large and detailed maps. Let us throw this open for general testing and other comments, and see if anyone else remarks on the same problem. This may be an edge case important only for dive sites, in which case a solution only for dive site articles would be appropriate, but that would have to only display on mobile. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 10:49, 26 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Pbsouthwood, as you guessed, since this is the standard way the images are managed by Wikimedia, the template shall be kept the way it is, but for specific cases similar to this one, you can add (outside from the template) a text with the sentence you added initially that includes the link to the hi-res image. It's like when you add to a listing the official website, but inside the description you can add a link to a specific page of the website. --Andyrom75 (talk) 06:23, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Andyrom 75, In a Star class article we expect the user to be able to find a linked item that they need by using the same procedure that would be used on any other correctly formatted page. In this case, the normal procedure on desktop is to click on the image to get the larger image. Clicking directly on that larger image loads the high resolution version, which can then be zoomed in, and the cursor indicates that this will happen by having a little "+" symbol. This is intuitive and requires no special knowledge of using Commons. Mobile currently works very differently. A user wanting the highest resolution is likely to tap (touchscreen click equivalent) on the default image displayed by the template. This has a predictable result of opening a larger image. It is not obvious that tapping again on the larger image will not work the same way as on desktop, and that an even larger image that is actually legible might or might not exist on a different site, and to find out you need to tap on a button at the lower left labelled "Details", after which you have to inspect the fine print under the displayed image to see what alternative sizes are available, recognise that the text at the end of the list below the thumbnaii displayed indicates the largest available image, and that it is a link that will open the image if tapped. Ideally the high resolution image would be opened by tapping/clicking directly on the image rather than going through all this relatively complicated and not at all intuitive procedure. An ordinary user is unlikely to guess that there is a high res image to be found, so is likely to stop looking almost immediately. Therefore we must firstly inform the user that the image they need exists, secondly we must put this information where they are likely to look (ideally where they are already looking), and thirdly, we should provide a direct link to the correct image file, and if it is not at the place the user is currently looking, we need to tell them where the link is. Since the mobile platform appears to fail to provide a user-friendly experience as a default, and there is no indication that it will in the foreseeable future, we must make our own hacks. The one I wrote, while far from ideal, did the job better than any other currently available. Your upgrade of the Template:Regionlist is a great improvement for most applications, but does not work for dive site maps of moderately large areas. Adding information about how to find the right map in the text is a poor workaround, as readers will not find it when they have no reason to know they need to look for it. Adding a big button under the image saying "Click here for high resolution map" would be more effective, and having the link in the map caption seems to me likely to be the most effective solution, even if it requires a different template. You may have some alternative which would work just as well, and I would be happy to use it, but I don't know what it is. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 06:04, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Pbsouthwood, if not already nowadays, sooner or later all the user will be familiar with the standard Wikimedia Commons behavior on mobile view (that in your case means two consecutive clicks). I understand your concern for those that are not yet confident, but my only suggestion is the one previously stated. --Andyrom75 (talk) 06:38, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Andyrom75, I don't think we should be basing policy on the assumption that readers must learn to deal with our obscure arbitrary technical details, or must guess that something is there to look for. That is a way to lose readers. In my experience they don't bother to look for things they do not know exist. When I discuss it with them they already complain that the site is too much hassle. As this is the discussion for a Star nomination, I will request comment from the reviewers. SelfieCity, LPfi, SHB2000. As I see it, my current options are to (a) fail to provide reasonably user-friendly access to a legible map to mobile users (I would rather lose the star) (b) use non-standardised templates or markup to work around the problem, allowing a link in an intuitively discoverable place (the map caption) to a significantly more useful high resolution map that readers have no obvious reason to know exists, and are unlikely to spend time looking for it for that reason, or (c) revert to separate static and dynamic maps, which feels like going backwards, but may be the only compromise that everyone accepts. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 07:46, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, but it should be directly below the frame in that case so that it is obviously referring to that map. Outside the frame is less likely to be correctly understood or even noticed, so should be more conspicuous. Inside the frame in the caption is pretty clear that it refers to that specific frame. Outside the frame would require something like one of the rectangular button templates on English Wikipedia. There is also the matter of coding the template. I am limited in my skills to mainly wikimarkup and a little bit of HTML and CSS. No Lua. Inside the caption and frame puts it in the best position to be seen and understood. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 16:05, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If this is a common problem in dive guides, then I don't see why we couldn't make a specific template for them, which includes a parameter for the alternative image to be linked. That way we could keep the difference inside the template, but also provide the link where it is most easily found – as I assume from the above; I don't have much experience of the mobile site, and experimenting I would probably behave in atypical ways. –LPfi (talk) 11:58, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is how I would want (b) to work and look. I expect it to be a fairly common problem in dive guides. Possibly becoming more common in the future, but cannot say for sure. Sometimes things change unexpectedly. It would mainly be a problem where there are several sites in a region small enough to have a common map, but big enough that there is quite a lot of detail to go on the map. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 16:21, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Due to a glad unexpected event I'm starting to have soon not su much time, so I hope to finish this task quickly to completely support you. Here my suggestion. Let's widely discuss to approve the current sandbox template. Once Template:Regionlist have been updated, I can draft a dedicated template for scuba articles. --Andyrom75 (talk) 06:59, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Andyrom75, That is a kind offer, Do you want to open a RfC on Template:Regionlist? The Dive site map toggle template does not need all the region listing display with colour coding and keys, but it would be useful to be able to display Marine Protected Area borders, and allow user options of listing, see and do markers, which can be seen in the dynamic maps in "Nearby" sections of dive site articles. •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 15:26, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Peter (Southwood), I don't know the procedure here in en:voy. In it:voy we just talk on lounge/bar. My idea is to create a "scuba template" that use the "regionlist template" (as you said) without activating the legenda, but to do that, I need to consolidate the sandboxed template. --Andyrom75 (talk) 19:42, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SHB2000, Selfie City and LPfi, Do any of you see any outstanding issues? I would prefer wider comment, but if none is forthcoming we should probably wrap this up. Thank you for your contributions, they have been helpful, and have led to what I consider significant improvement. Cheers, •••Peter (Southwood)(talk): 04:18, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Time for another Childs-like star nomination. It's essentially complete, has a static map and has everything needed for a star article. It doesn't have an understand section, but city-districts don't usually have understand sections but I'm willing to add one if deemed necessary. --SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta.wikimedia)11:34, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support - my kind of article; short and sweet, and focusing on a small town. I don't think it needs an 'Understand', unless there's some interesting history that couldn't fit elsewhere.
Small niggles can be dealt with in the coming days: I'm not in love with the end of the lede, which repeats the word "hidden" quite a lot, but I can't at the moment think of better wording. The 1882 eat listing will need to be updated after Wednesday 3rd August, because they're renovating, getting a new menu, and changing opening hours.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:20, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Darn what a coincidence! I really should've checked what was going on with 1882 Hall when I was there last month. It really does bother me given I was at Kynefin Cafe for my afternoon snack after descending down from One Tree Hill which was just a few steps away from the town's only restaurant:-(. I'll try and do a quick checkup (and may stop there for dinner) when I do my annual summit walk up Mount Kosciuszko this November. But anyway, thanks for the copyedits. Really appreciated.:-) SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta.wikimedia)06:17, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In Australia (at least, this is true in all the states) the definitions are quite simple. Any settlement with over 200 inhabitants is (officially) considered a town, and anything over 10,000 is a city. Settlements with fewer than 200 inhabitants is up to interpretation; most Australians would call it a township, some might still call it a town, others would call it a settlement. "Village" is not usually used in Australian English, but Uriarra Village also in the ACT has earned the title of "community village" (no other settlement in Aus has this title), and the ACT government does (overly) promote Hall as a village. This sign in Hall claims that Hall is a heritage village, but the encyclopedia claims it's a township. Per official definitions, Hall, with a population of 271, would technically be considered a town, so I'm really undecided now, though I slightly favour following the encyclopedia and using "township". SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta.wikimedia)11:16, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, some copy editing is needed. I checked the first page and the language doesn't strike me as "stylistically superior and effective". –LPfi (talk) 05:05, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Are we talking about copyedits (as in spelling and grammar fixes), or just general improvements in quality? If the former, there shouldn't be many, but please go ahead regardless. If the latter, some examples of text that stands to be improved would be helpful.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:45, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Outcome: 3 weeks now, given that all issues have been fixed, per the notice on the top of this page, I'm going to upgrade this so this doesn't get lost in the pile for another few years to come. So essentially promoted. --SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)10:34, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This inappropriate, irregular attempt to self-promote this nomination hastily while I'm on vacation is hereby reverted with prejudice. Let no-one ever do this kind of thing again. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:16, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care if you're on vacation and it wasn't my intention to deliberately promote the article while you were on vacation, but whether you like it or not, it was promoted per policy from the top which I will paste below.
After three weeks of discussion, if a consensus is reached, then that article becomes a star, and the discussion should be archived. A consensus means that all outstanding objections should have been addressed and dropped; if issues remain then the discussion should be left open for two months to allow time to fix the article and reach a consensus.
Was there consensus? Yes there was – it doesn't matter how many users participated the nomination, but in this case, there was no opposition (apart from you and you're only opposing because you don't agree with how this was promoted). Were all the objections addressed and dropped? Yes, it was – the lede and the entire article was copyedited. Were there any outstanding objections before it was promoted? Nope. That meant it could be promoted per the policy. If you want to change the policy, wait till your proposal gets consensus but that will only affect future nominations, not this one.
So, really, maybe you should be the one to reconsider your actions when I followed the policy before calling my promotion as "unilateral", "arbitrary", "hasty", "[the policy] was abused". In this case, you were the one who didn't follow policy by instantly reverting instead of listing this article at Wikivoyage:Star nominations#Nominations to remove Star status, unarchiving a closed threads when archived, closed threads aren't supposed to be edited afterwards they've been archived. And no, I repeat that it was NOT my intention to deliberately take advantage of your vacation to promote this article so maybe reconsider what you type before making assumptions; that does even make me wonder why I should argue with you when you decided to not follow policy when you won't show me basic courtesy. I don't care whether it's your intention to follow policy (and IAR doesn't apply here), but I'm going to follow the policy and rearchive this. SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)07:49, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note the phrase you quoted: "A consensus means that all outstanding objections should have been addressed and dropped". What about "Let's wait a bit; I think the copy can be tweaked somewhat." I am also chocked that you don't respect the protest. "I am right so I will do it" is not the wiki way. Why can't we wait a week for IK to return from his vacation? You plunged forward, and that's OK (although plunging forward may be met by astonishment, like now, and that's also OK). But you were reverted, and then you should wait until the discussion has settled, or let somebody else make the judgement call. –LPfi (talk) 09:54, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I get that I might've gone overboard with this, but it really isn't my problem that Ikan did not follow policy. The only edit I made that could be said to go against policy was the consensus bit, but consensus can be interpreted differently by person, so I repeat, I didn't break policy, Ikan did. I should probably stop rambling on now. SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)11:23, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I get that you're upset, but promoting the article without a consensus was the only edit that was against policy. It wasn't a major infraction, in my opinion, despite the controversy that's been generated. Ikan reverting back to the status quo was within policy, because your promotion was premature and we have a Status quo bias. As I already implied, he should have assumed good faith instead of reacting angrily to your actions. Wikivoyage is important to those of us who care about it, but let's remember we're only arguing over a few lines of code on a computer. Passion is good, but it's not worth falling out over. And, sorry, I'm not trying to patronise anyone, but I'm British, so... yeahhh.-ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:21, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK, considering that star articles should be as close to perfect as possible, do we want to start the article with a question:
"Have you ever wondered whether there were any settlements in/around Canberra before the Australian Capital Territory (ACT) was established?"
Or should we start with what's currently the second sentence?
"Hall is one of the last few remnants of what was New South Wales (NSW) bushland before the capital was established."
I'd suggest the following as the first sentence:
"Hall is one of the last few remnants of what was New South Wales (NSW) bushland before Canberra and the Australian Capital Territory were established."
I'd slightly tweak the next sentence, too:
"The historic village of 271 (2016) has a distinct identity and resembles a classic Australian rural town, but is in fact only separated from the Canberra suburbs by about a kilometre of countryside."
I'd suggest:
"The historic village of 271 (2016) has a distinct identity and resembles a classic Australian rural town although it is separated from the Canberra suburbs by only about a kilometre of countryside."
If you all are OK with this kind of copy editing, I will try to go through the entire article and see if I can edit it to my and everyone else's satisfaction, hopefully with help from some of you. I'm a busy man, what with school restarting soon and various things to deal with when I get home, but this article is brief. Give me time to copy edit and do not rush anything. I'd much prefer for starnoms to be met with unanimous support, even if it takes months, and don't really agree that legitimate objections of a lack of perfection in any respect should be brushed aside in these kinds of nominations, ever. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I am a bit puzzled by a rural town being an example of bushland. I thought bushland was where you get when leaving the towns and villages behind. I try to tweak some other wordings. –LPfi (talk) 06:11, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"The bush" is a colloquial term that simply means anywhere that has an urban feeling. In an Australian context, it seldom refers to the literal sense of bushland used elsewhere. --SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)06:16, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
[Edit conflict] Another thing that puzzles me is "The first thing you will need to realise is that Hall is not on the beaten track". Is it important to realise? Why? Please tell what I need to do to prepare. Or is this just some flavouring, which in fact means "Bus service is sparse"? –LPfi (talk) 06:20, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your suggestions. My thoughts on your proposed wordings as follows:
I don't see why not? Not every article has to begin with an inspiring but non-rhetorical question
The land that makes up the ACT was transferred from NSW to the Commonwealth in 1911, while Canberra was established 2 years later. I don't think two years is a whole lot to merit saying two different terms that essentially mean the same thing from a traveller's POV
Not sure. I like both your's and tt!'s (who wrote/copyedited that sentence) equally
For 2, I suppose we don't need to mention Canberra, i.e. "Hall is one of the last few remnants of what was New South Wales (NSW) bushland before the Australian Capital Territory was established." primarily because some would argue that Hall is not a part of Canberra (even though Canberra = ACT in the eyes of the ACT govt.) SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)07:50, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alternatively, for point 1, how about "Have you ever wondered whether there were any settlements in the Australian Capital Territory (ACT) before it was established?" SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)09:23, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not yet This is a good article, which fully satisfies being a Guide. However I don't think that it has quite reached the Star quality.
I think it should have an Understand section. There are two paragraphs in the lede, but I think we should have more - eg do most of the resident commute to Canberra, or do they work in rural industies? Is the population stable at 271, or has it been much larger or smaller?
There is no mention of horses but the Mapnik map shows a horse paddock and Hall Showground Equestrian Park (where the market marker is).
For an article about a place with so little to see or do, it really has to be complete to be a star. For example, describe what is in Hall Park - the picnic tables, community playground and Well Monument. Maybe Hops and Vine should have a listing.
Some of the text reads like a blog rather than a travel guide.
As the bus service is so poor, is there somewhere nearby to get a bus to and then walk or taxi?
Thank you for your feedback + additions. Really appreciated:-). For your points:
City districts don't usually have understand sections as I mentioned above and adding one would be very short (unlike Canberra/Civic), though I did think about adding one. I couldn't find any information on where most of the town's residents commute to, but I wouldn't add that as that's way too encyclopedic for a travel guide. Population-wise, again, would be too encyclopedic and can go out-of-date.
https://actsportsgrounds.act.gov.au/sportsgrounds/Hall%201 says the equestrian centre can only be used by certain equestrian groups, not passer-by travellers. Likewise, I don't think the horse paddock is for public use; in fact, I don't remember seeing a horse paddock, nor did I even know there was one before making the static map. Looking at GSV, it appears that it's someone's private property.
Bit of background here: I've objected to ordinary municipal parks with nothing so remarkable (like a botanic garden) to go into detail, and have removed such listings before from many Quebec articles merely because they're wv:boring for most. Even though it's not policy, the same principles apply. Regarding Hops and Vine, I wasn't sure if it was in scope, but if it is, then I'll add it.
Part of that can be explained by my personal writing style – that is, writing in a journalistic form. Are there specific sections that look more like a blog than a travel guide?
Not that I'm aware of. It really shouldn't be surprising though – it's almost impossible to find good public transport in regional areas.
I'm aware of the Hall Heritage Walk, but I deliberately didn't include it because it reads more like a personal itinerary – IIRC, I don't remember the wall being signposted on the ground, and adding it would be against our personal itineraries policy. The article contains all the listings mentioned in How to spend a day in Hall FWIW.
I'll implement some of your suggestions, particularly the third one. Not sure where the horses should be mentioned, but for now, I'll mention it in the Hall Showground listing. SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)04:09, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the updates.
Ok - as Hall is described as a rural town, I forgot that it is a city district. As we don't have an ACT state article, it would be a big change to make it a city.
Ok - Equestrian park now mentionned.
Whilst ordinary parks are boring for sightseeing, they are useful.
e.g. "Just next to the trail is a small carpark, which doesn't have many spaces available but few actually use that carpark in the first place." rather than "Small carpark which often has free spaces.".
The bus only works as a day trip if you are coming from Yass, not Canberra. But I think you could get a bus to Gold Creek in Gungahlin and then it is a 3km walk - is this workable?
I thought the National Trust was a respected heritage body and if they have been actively involved in the village they would be a primary source, but maybe there isn't that much to see on the walk.
We usually don't have Understand sections for district articles, but I think this town is so much different in character than the rest of Canberra that an Understand is warranted. I don't think it is "too encyclopedic" to tell whether the inhabitants get their living here or whether they commute and whether the population has been stable or seen drastic changes. It may not be essential, but would certainly be worth mentioning. –LPfi (talk) 04:33, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Also, does anyone know why the listing for Hops and Vine has a MULTIPLE-EMAIL problem? Is there something with the error highlighter gadget that prevents more than one email (frankly, I don't see the problem with multiple emails, which is leading me to think that I've incorrectly formatted something)? SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)00:22, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The email field takes just one address and probably doesn't take comments (if it does, it probably includes them in the To: header of the e-mail). Perhaps one could consider making the field more like the phone one. Usually, though, the username parts of e-mail addresses are descriptive enough not to need comments. Should the hampers be moved to the content (saying such can be ordered) and the admin address skipped? –LPfi (talk) 10:17, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I thought about moving the info on hampers, not the address. "admin" is usually for technical issues, while "orders" sounds like being read by somebody ready to help also in more practical matters; administration is more often outsourced than sales, but I don't know the place. –LPfi (talk) 11:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done I removed the customised hampers email. From the website, it seems the admin@ email was for all other enquiries (and the email for customised hampers is still available on the website). SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)11:46, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This long later, what needs to be done before we slap a star on the article? I believe I've done everything that was suggested here, and have proofread the article a few times over. I'd prefer to put the star on by Jan 5, which is six days from now (as I'll be interstate from Jan 6 for two weeks, give or take a few days). SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)03:52, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I can't guarantee my input before 6 Jan, as am tied up with the Belgian coast by tram nomination. However, you may not need anything more from me on Hall, as I did already contribute and vote support ages ago.
Oh, and to living in the future? Just watched the Dubai fireworks (which were more impressive than the fireworks I watched at 00:00 this morning) and am waiting till 10:00 and 11:00 to watch the celebrations in Paris and London, respectively, but watching every major city with a good fireworks show (so not LA) after our's seems kinda quirky and unusual, but that's the beauty of time zones. Happy new year to you too:-). SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)22:44, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have re-read the article and now support it being a star. Most points have been addressed, and the article is now nearly a year old so there has been a chance for the article to be used. AlasdairW (talk) 12:05, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But to my second question, can I slap the star back on June 1, 08:00 UTC if there are no further objections (if you're wondering why the time is overly specific, that's when I get home on Thursday). SHB2000 (talk|contribs|meta)08:39, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's taken two months to get this article from a request to a guide article, which is currently nominated for Featured Travel Topic, ideally to be featured in an upcomming summer. Since my request for improvements to be made has yet to yield any suggestions, and since feedback on the DOTM-nomination has been very positive thus far, I reckon I should just nominate it for a star sooner rather than later. I have made some remarks on the talk page request linked above about the state of the article right now, but I'd be surprised if any of it is a huge issue. -- Wauteurz (talk) 16:05, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. A few redlinks need to be fixed, and some small formatting changes to the table, for example, need to be made, but as these are easily fixed, they do not deter me from supporting a star article nomination. This article is one of the few "complete" articles on Wikivoyage because it has been written by a dedicated editor to cover every detail as a complete travel guide. This makes it a great example of what a "star" article should be. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 16:19, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the kind words, @SelfieCity. They're much appreciated!
I've gone ahead and removed all unnecessary redlinks excluding one to Veurne, which I plan to add in the near future. Other than that, the links to De Panne are redlinks in all but name, but in fairness, it was only created last August. Anywho, the table has also been reformatted to hopefully be a bit less intrusive, but let me know if you had other problems with it. -- Wauteurz (talk) 18:54, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The gallery-like template is {{multiplemaps}}, once known as {{multiple image}}. It's used site-wide for mostly listing maps side-by-side, but also sees some use for displaying multiple images together for comparison, which is the main purpose in this particular use case. The way I see it, it's better than listing rolling stock in images above and below each other, as that quickly gives the impression that it's a technical page about what kind of trams you'll encounter, which it definitely isn't. It's just nice to be able to identify the trams you'll be using, so you know what you can expect in the ways of provisions and accessibility. I essentially took the 'format' from Rail travel in the Netherlands and made it work here. Rest assured though, within a few years that template will only list two, or will possibly just be a single image, as the BN's are being replaced with the Zeelijner, and the HermeLijn stock might be retired from coastal duties.
About alignment, {{panorama}} is centre-aligned. I don't think I have influence over that. Making it a normal image would take up a lot of width, which doesn't work well across different monitors. The only other left-aligned image is aligned as such to not push other images, which are equally additive to the article, too far down from their corresponding paragraphs. It's necessity more than looks that prompted that choice.
Your third point I don't think I can answer to, since I'm not quite sure what you mean by it? An example or two would definitely help, and I'll see if it's something I can mend tomorrow:) -- Wauteurz (talk) 23:51, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The white space problem usually appears at specific browser window widths, or widths above or below some threshold. You could check by changing widths on a wide enough monitor. For my standard width, the only problematic place was at the top, caused by the nomination templates. I moved them up above the lead image, which fixed the problem – and that's where they should be. I also moved down the lead image to Understand, which is the standard placement, not to interfere with the banner. In a wide window, the lead is now too short; is there some sentence in Understand that could be copied here, or something else to be added? (We try to have a bit more substantial leads anyway.) –LPfi (talk) 06:48, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Opening this again, I'd love to be able to put a star on this article before the end of the year. I believe the points above have all been dealt with, aside from the 'gallery' template, to which there isn't much of a good alternative. Is there anything else that needs mending, or are we all content with upgrading the article status here? -- Wauteurz (talk) 16:12, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - A few months ago, while the prose was good, it certainly wasn't perfect. I was going through the whole article, section by section, probably got about half of the way down the article as-was, but life got in the way. I'd like to be able to check it again.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:23, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Of course! Take your time. Before the end of the year would be nice, but I'm well-aware that 12 days is short notice. Before the article's time as FTT next summer is the actual deadline for when I think this should be wrapped up, so there's plenty of time still.
I'm not a native English speaker and I never will be, so I don't doubt that prose can be improved. I'll keep an eye on the changes to the article, so feel free to use the edit summaries should you need some specific input from me:) -- Wauteurz (talk) 16:48, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do my best, but can't guarantee it will be done in 12 days. Others may also find that my version is not perfect either or has its own issues, so it's not as though I'll have the final say on upgrading the article!--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 17:09, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Several listings or markers are nothing more than names with no context; they need qualitative information. Sea Life is a well-known aquarium brand, but what makes this one worth visiting? I can guess that Hubertmolen is some sort of mill, but only by virtue of knowing a bit of Dutch (een muis in een molen in Mooi Amsterdam!); there surely has to more to write about than the fact it dates from 1880. What's a Duinbos? This sentence, where half the words are untranslated Dutch, is particularly perplexing: "Next is 51.26413.00261 De Haan, Vosseslag, which is the access point to the 51.26483.00851Kijkuit, the third and final of the Duinbossen around De Haan en Wenduine." I've just added some context to the equally-mystifying Noordzeebad listing.
The map and photo combo at the top of Nieuwpoort-Bad — De Panne has somehow squeezed the subheading (Groenedijk and Oostduinkerke) and 'see also' into oblivion on my screen. I can't see the same issue on any of the other section headers. I am using the new skin (which I dislike, but it's what most of our readers will see) on desktop Google Chrome. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 15:16, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've hopefully amended those listings to where things are more understandable. I'd translate Kijkuit to Lookout as well if it weren't the name of that small nature preserve. If there's more of them to add onto, let me know. It's way too easy for me as a native Dutch speaker to read over those things:)
The heading-squeezing was mostly because Vector 2022 has a narrower area for the article's content. The layout worked fine in old Vector (at 16:9 screens at least), but if the 2022 version is the future, it's probably better to cater to that. I've moved the image of those dunes over to the right, which also resolves one of the problematic image placements brought up a few months ago. There'll be a few too many images on the right for some screen lay-outs now, but it is what it is. -- Wauteurz (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great. There's probably more to say about that windmill, but I'll look into that.
Regardless of the time it's taken, what matters is that it's done. Dankjewel, TT!! I think it's fair to say that we're probably both blind to any possible remaining mistakes in the article, so if a third person could have a look-over (perhaps we'll come full circle with Ypsilon doing that final check?), then we can probably head towards a star consensus before the article gets featured this summer. ― Wauteurz (talk)19:54, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alstjeblieft. Very kind way of saying "better late than never". The only thing keeping me from supporting the star nom is the blindness you mentioned.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:48, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hopefully I'll have enough uninterrupted time tomorrow to go through it, at a quick glance it looks good but there's one redlink to Atlantikwall. Ypsilon (talk) 16:56, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
...and another redlink in Go next - are they something hindering Star status? I don't know much about Star nominations and their requirements because I haven't had much interest in them. That said, I don't find anything wrong with the article. --Ypsilon (talk) 18:19, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SelfieCity brought up redlinks before, and at the time I deleted what wasn't essential and amended the rest. I do want to write articles on the Atlantikwall and Veurne respectively sometime in the future, but I can't guarantee that they'll be live before, say, the end of the year. I've gone ahead and removed both redlinks for that reason - the article looks better without them.
I'll ping previous commenters SHB2000, SelfieCity and LPfi in: The points you brought up in October should be ironed out at this point. How do you stand on this article now? Do we have your support to go ahead and promote it to a star? ― Wauteurz (talk)19:19, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have the time to check the article carefully now, but I don't remember having seen any problems with it when I did. My comment above was about the lead length, which seems unproblematic now. I am a bit worried about the view that redlinks are ugly, but that doesn't affect the nomination; it should probably be discussed elsewhere. –LPfi (talk) 06:39, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – Since there doesn't seem to be any opposition any more, I'm leaving this for the weekend should anyone still want to address anything. If there's none, I'll upgrade the article come next Monday. ― Wauteurz (talk)14:28, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's a lot here (multiple maps!), and what's here is very good, but there are certain things missing that the criteria say should be present in any "star" article (or "guide", for that matter). Only one of the four central districts articles is "guide" quality, and the criteria says they all need to be. (The six outer districts - none of which have articles - should either have articles created or they should be classified as "Suburban Dalian" or some such and excluded altogether from this article.) The key problem is the shortage of specific Eat and Sleep listings in the district articles; there should be multiple listings for these sections in each district (preferably with some attention to different price categories). Even taken as a whole, there aren't as many Eat and Sleep options as there should be a in a city this size. By a strict application of the criteria, this article - despite its many merits - doesn't even qualify as "guide". That's a bit weird, and I wouldn't quibble if people wanted to call it a "guide" while they dig for more listings, but for "star", we really ought to be that picky. Not Star. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 18:24, 15 February 2007 (EST)
Yeah, Todd's got a point. Does not qualify as a huge city star. I think the districts need to be fixed, the listings need to be shifted to the district pages. There should be a good general info on the main page, citing references to different districts. A perfect example is Singapore - it's a huge-city article written to perfection. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 11:06, 18 February 2007 (EST)
Not star - agree with Todd (WT-en) - Cacahuate 21:09, 19 February 2007 (EST)
Star, yeah the district information isn't too great, but this article is brilliantly informative, I too don't think we need to be this sparing with the star designation --(WT-en) MiddleEastern 13:24, 9 March 2007 (EST)
Then start a discussion to change the criteria, rather than ignoring them. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 18:04, 9 March 2007 (EST)
Not star - This top level article is great, but the coverage of the country below this article is pretty poor... The country guide status article stipulates that for a country article to become a star it must have a "tourist style map showing all the linked destinations, which must be guide status or better". Almost all of the cities linked from the country page are at outline status, 2 of the regions are usable, the rest are outlines. I hate to destar things, but this is something we should have noticed during the nomination process a couple months ago (WT-en) - Cacahuate 21:09, 19 February 2007 (EST)
Cacahuate, you must have made a mistake about the cities. Helsinki and Tampere have excellent articles and even the rest are decent. However, the regions are a major problem. According to the country guide status, the regions should be usable and the cities guide. Well, the latter is okay. However, someone needs to fix the regions. I suppose (WT-en) Jpatokal could do it. I'd say let this remain here till someone sorts out the regions (Lapland and Aland are decent, the others are in a mess). After that, we can remove it off this list. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 08:24, 20 February 2007 (EST)
Nope, no mistake... the 2 you mention are indeed guide quality, the rest are at outline status... until the regions and the rest of the cities/destinations that are linked to from the country page are improved to guide status, this isn't a star. (WT-en) - Cacahuate 12:10, 20 February 2007 (EST)
If Flores couldn't make the grade, how did this one become a star?? Was it ever nominated at all?? Conclusion - Not a star, no way...(WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 05:20, 2 March 2007 (EST)
Comment - This article was declared a star before the nomination process was developed. It would help if you outlined the reasons you think it fails to meet the criteria. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 09:55, 2 March 2007 (EST)
Sure, Todd. Here are a few
Get In is simply a list of subway stations
Get Around is sparse
Listings need to be templatized
The last two sleep listings have no prices mentioned
The eat/drink sections need opening hours and meal prices.
The closest Metro station should be mentioned for all listings, in a city like Paris you can never be more than 400m away from a station.
Punctuation is a bit lousy at places.
Buy - There's no mention of what to buy
There's more to it than just this, but if someone addresses the queries above I'll agree that it can easily become a star. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 05:32, 3 March 2007 (EST)
Yeah, this definitely isn't a star. I vote for un-starring. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 21:20, 21 March 2007 (EDT)
I agree this isn't a star, but rather than just unstarring it, why don't we CotW it/look at the French equivalent to see if we can get it up to necessary level?? -- (WT-en) Tim 11:57, 30 March 2007 (EDT)
Not star - I understand your point Tim, but if this article had gone through the current Star nomination process it wouldn't have succeeded anyhow, and the things that need fixing aren't likely to be fixed quickly enough. I think we should destar it now, it's been through the process and it's been more than 14 days... I'll schedule it as a CotW and put it to the head of the line... if it looks like the problems have been addressed at that point then we can nominate it for Star status and it can go through the proper precedure... sound ok with everyone? –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 00:02, 31 March 2007 (EDT)
Outcome: downgraded to Guide, currently CotW and then maybe can be re-nominated for Star status –(WT-en) cacahuatetalk 00:21, 2 April 2007 (EDT)
A few days ago someone upgraded this to a "star", but I don't recall any formal discussion process happening here about it, it looks like someone just changed it. It looks like a decent article, it just didn't go through the whole process. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 00:44, 3 August 2007 (EDT)
I've changed it to guide. Since it never went through the nomination-process there is no need to go through any formal "star removal" process. -- (WT-en) Ryan• (talk) • 00:58, 3 August 2007 (EDT)
Agreed. It would not pass anyway because of 1) incomplete listings, 2) lack of a tourist map, and 3) a few minor MoS issues. It is an excellent article, however, and I think it would pass if someone takes the initiative to resolve these 3 outstanding issues. --(WT-en) PeterTalk 01:00, 3 August 2007 (EDT)
Cool. I just wanted to post it here in case there was a formal nomination process that I wasn't aware of. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 03:18, 3 August 2007 (EDT)
I know it says "only nominate articles which cannot be easily elevated/restored to "star" quality, but this appears to be the only place to call attention to the fact that we have a star article with an improper formatting disclaimer, and indeed, none of the article is formatted properly. After formatting the article, perhaps there will be more missing information, but it's embarassing to have such a notice on a "star" article. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 04:29, 12 April 2010 (EDT)
Demote. It's still a really great guide, but it's no longer even close to our ever more rigorous star standards. Price info is missing for most of the listings, along w/ some contact info, and the map does not have all listings marked. It would of course be great if someone were to rescue the article...;) --(WT-en) PeterTalk 10:44, 12 April 2010 (EDT)
Demote. There's no shame in being merely guide status, though. =) (WT-en) LtPowers 13:51, 22 April 2010 (EDT)
I don't know whether this alone merits de-starring the article, but objectively speaking, those maps are pretty terrible. You can barely see anything. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:44, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Lausanne-Ouchy.png is OK at full resolution, but the overview map, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Lausanne-overview.png , is very borderline even at full magnification on my tiny notebook screen. I see that the current criteria for Star status for a city, include "Has a tourist-style map, in Wikivoyage style with modifiable vector source, showing how to get around the destination, with major attractions, restaurants, etc. that match the listings in the guide". Or do the mapping criteria need to change for Star status so as to allow the more easily maintainable dynamic style of map? With many cities it is a Sisyphean task to keep a static map either clear and crisp or comprehensive and up-to-date with all the various listings. --W.Franke-mailtalk16:56, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not Starper my nomination. This article does not currently showcase the best we can do or exist as an exemplar to editors of "how things should be done".--W.Franke-mailtalk17:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Guide article. As per discussion at Talk:Lausanne#Increasing the maps' visibility, I unilaterally downgraded the article to a guide, based on the lack of any record of a star discussion ever having taken place and the fact that the maps are virtually unusable, particularly if the page were printed out. Ypsilon also pointed out some Mos issues in the article. It's a good article - a guide, but not a star. But I really don't understand why a formal procedure is needed to de-star an article that was starred without discussion. It seems like a bit of a waste of time to me, as the problems with the article could be dealt with effectively on the talk page of the article itself. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:34, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's needed to keep G-T happy. Since G-T can be pretty dogged, it's probably the quickest route to keep G-T on board. However and unlike Vfd's, it's not clear to me whether the de-Star nominated article is to be regarded as unworthy of having Star status until and unless there is a consensus otherwise and whether there is a 14 day (or some other concrete time period) for discussion. --W.Franke-mailtalk20:43, 4 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The star discussion is relatively new on this site, we had star articles before this process existed and Lausanne is one of them. Are the maps are the only reason to downgrade this article? We can easily create better quality PNG files from the existing SVGs. Globe-trotter (talk) 00:48, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Define "relatively new," please. The Archives go back to 2006. I don't have an immediate answer for your other question, as I haven't gone through the article with a fine-toothed comb. Perhaps Ypsilon, who has, will have some detailed remarks about Mos issues. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:17, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If you take the time to carefully read through the nominated article, the nominated article's discussion page and the discussion above, you will notice other issues (eg: $, tdf, xl). However, these are all relatively minor and relatively quick to fix by most of us - which would be preferable to demoting this article's status. However, few of us are able to draw good maps, in Wikivoyage style with modifiable vector source, showing how to get around the destination, with major attractions, restaurants, etc. that match the listings in this guide, so if you are able to do that G-T this would be an enormous help. Thanks for offering.
Globe-trotter, I just reread my post above, and the phrasing might seem snotty, so sorry about that. I don't think 2006 is relatively new, but that wasn't your main point. However, I'd argue that if there was no discussion before an article was made a star, the procedure for destarring it should be to simply mention the reason on the article's talk page and do it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:27, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Guide - Frankly talking, it isn't important to me whether an article is called a guide or star or something else as long as the traveler can find so much useful and valid information in it that he or she can use it in when visiting the place with as little need for other information sources as possible. And I'm not particularly fond of sitting and meticulously correcting every comma in an article; if a piece of information is understandable I don't think it's a catastrophe if it isn't correctly formatted. But as I now inadvertently had ruined the "star" article's rigorous formatting I decided to take a little closer look if the article indeed is in line with the star article specifications and I found that this is not the case:
External links are not supposed to be in footnote style any longer.
And when you click on them, you're not supposed to get the good old 404.
The currency is written in at least four ways, namely: "number Chf", "number CHF", "CHF number", "CHF number.--"
Some listings could be expanded with web pages for the restaurants, descriptions for some museums, "See" and "Do" could maybe use lead sections.
"Stay healthy" is not listingfied at all.
There might be some some grammar and spelling things that I haven't spotted.
The points of interest should be up to date in the text and on the maps. Are they? Especially as Lausanne isn't exactly a tourist hotspot and probably one of our least frequently used star articles I believe quite a lot might "happen" in the city (places closing, moving, changing phone numbers and prices) without anyone knowing of it.
A few more pictures would certainly not hurt.
and finally:
Try to print out the current version of the article on standard A4 paper. Can you use the "overview" and "central" maps as they are or would you rather want to print them on separate sheets? But didn't Globe-trotter resize them back from thumbnail size because the readers should be able to read them? On the other hand if we enlarge them so that they're as wide as half of the page or the whole page they will be legible but the article will look completely terrifying. Maybe "sharper" versions of the maps will help.
By the way... are there any other star articles dating back to the time before the formal process was taken into use? If so, maybe they should also be reviewed? I remember that the "star veteran" Singapore risked getting destarred a couple of months back, but fortunately that didn't happen. ϒpsilon (talk) 10:06, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ypsilon, there are very few pre-2006 star articles, e.g. Paris/1st_arrondissement which is based on the work of Mark who also wrote Lausanne in major parts. I think it would be fair to ask him if he has time and will to maintain the star level for both. Mark did a superb job and i think his contributions made some articles exceptional. I agress Lausanne is at the moment not up to todays star requirements but as star noms take months, the same should apply to de-stars. jan (talk) 11:47, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree that this article is no longer a star. It's terribly out of date, and I should find some time to put into it. -- Mark (talk) 07:30, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"as star noms take months, the same should apply to de-stars"
Heartily agree in general, heartily disagree regarding this article. As was pointed out above, Lausanne was never nominated for Star status; instead, in violation of our policy, Template:Starcity was simply added to the article unilaterally. If it had come to light that Lausanne was starred unilaterally before he nominated it for de-starring, not only would we not need to waste months and months mulling over whether do de-star the article, but W. Frank would have been within his rights to simply demote it himself without further consultation. That's not my opinion; that's policy. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:08, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support, Andre. Two points: (1) Apparently, it was starred in 2005, before there had been any star discussions. I don't know what the policy on starring articles was then. (2) It was I who destarred it unilaterally, and that was indeed after I had discovered that the article had been starred without any discussion. I did and do think I was within my rights to do that, and that anyone should feel free to destar any article that has been starred without discussion, as long as they give a good reason for so doing on the talk page of the article in question. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:33, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This article was already a star before the nomination process began in the first place, so it was qualified for the criteria at the time it was promoted. I don't see why people are so keen on demoting without discussion. It states "Whenever possible, articles should be fixed rather than "de-starred.", with a discussion users get a chance to fix issues with it. I have fixed the issues with the maps, applied the listings template on all listings, and have fixed other the things that Ypsilon has noted. Globe-trotter (talk) 10:39, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Much respect to you, Globe-trotter. However, I do have several points to make in reply:
First of all, the maps are still way too small and really not usable as printouts unless they're clicked on at least once for the second map, and at least once and preferably twice for the first map (which is great as a full page), so you haven't yet fixed all the things that have been noted, and I still think the article is not a star.
That said, the most important thing is quality, so I'm delighted if this article can rightly be a star and thank you very much for taking part in fixing things. However, some of us also care about procedure and precedent, and I don't see where it makes any sense to take it on faith that an article that was promoted to star without any discussion is actually a star (I really have no idea what the standard for a star was in 2005 - was there any set of criteria then?) and cannot rightly be demoted for cause, with notice to the article's talk page and without a destar discussion. So while the results in this case are good, in the sense that improvements are being made, I believe that would have happened without restoring the star status prematurely after I demoted it for cause, based on my comments on the article's talk page (and if there weren't enough hands on deck, someone could have always posted to the Pub), so I don't concede your general points, even though my objection may soon be moot in this particular case.
To elaborate further at my thinking behind taking it upon myself to downgrade the article to guide, please have a look at this precedent. Do you think LtPowers did the wrong thing, and there should have been a destar nomination and a big discussion on how to save the unilateral star tag on the Pine City article? If not (and I certainly don't think he did the wrong thing), why was I in the wrong in unilaterally destarring Lausanne for cause? What process is it that you are asking us to respect?
I think the proper procedure would have been to destar the Lausanne article, improve it, and then nominate it for a star, so that it could go through the starnom process for the first time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:13, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pine City never followed the star promotion process as it existed at that moment, so LtPowers was totally right to demote it immediately. Lausanne did follow the star promotion process as it existed in 2005, so it was a valid star. Else it would mean if we'd make changes to the star promotion process now, all star articles we have would have to be demoted immediately. However, I do agree Lausanne needs work to be able to keep its star status. If it's been a star for 8 years, why is it a problem to wait two weeks with demotion to give people a chance to improve it? About the maps: I believe they don't have to be readable in-article (or we'd have to de-star a lot of articles, such as Walt Disney World). Globe-trotter (talk) 11:36, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Andre/Ikan: There were no procedures in 2005 to claim star status for article besides a complete MoS. I understand the reason why you want to de-star and renom. I think as Singapore was saved by Torty, gt does a good job in bringing the article back to shape. I think we should allow users at least for a couple of weeks (lets say end of September) to turn it around. I think we shouldn't simply slush the weaker stars because today we are way more advanced but instead pride our history that we got better. I think the whole renom process is taking months and such part of our project history should be allowed at least one resuce mission. Ikans issues are great that can be worked and i encourage everyone to make it points. jan (talk) 11:46, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have to look at Walt Disney World to see whether the map is a problem. If we take seriously the goal of providing guides that are usable as printouts, I think it's a problem worthy of discussion for a star article not to have one or more maps that are usable as printouts without being repeatedly clicked on to enlarge. It's worth thinking about where the best place would be to have that more general discussion; any suggestions?
Side point: Globe-trotter, no-one is suggesting that all star articles that were never subjected to a star discussion should be automatically destarred. I don't really get why you think that logically follows from anything anyone has posted. All anyone has talked about is the procedure for destarring for cause an article for which there's no record of a star discussion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:14, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've now standardised all prices to use the CHF123 style of currency format in this article so, when we've fixed the images/maps and tdf formats, I can support retention of Star status. --W.Franke-mailtalk18:49, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so what should be done with Lausanne? Should it be kept in the Star category? I wouldn't oppose removing the destar tag and let the article keep its status. ϒpsilon (talk) 12:09, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have a similar understanding, however unfortunately the current article has no map. If you were to restore a map, it may still not be sufficient to meet star article status. In any case, no map = no star:) Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:26, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. I think we should remove the star status right away. The conversation can then move on to how to create a map to regain the star status. Andrewssi2 (talk) 12:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Demoted to Guide. I think this is better for everyone, since there was no apparent interest to take remediation action and now this may happen. Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:55, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I thought about waiting for 2-3 days, but likely nobody would've joined the discussion anyway. Thanks for plunging forward. I've now removed Lausanne from the Star articles list too. ϒpsilon (talk) 04:48, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I thought that since it had been under discussion since August the 5th that it was unlikely that someone was about about to fix this. Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:55, 4 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A good while ago User:Traveler100 put a demotion template on this article but apparently forgot to actually nominate it. Today, User:Saqib simply demoted the article, but I undid this for now since proper procedure was not followed and clearly that talk page is not on people's watchlist. Hence this nomination now. JuliasTravels (talk) 20:04, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Downgrade - Though I don't have working knowledge of the town but in my opinion, the lead is too small, even though its a small town. Climate sub-section is too dry. Too many listings in minibus sub-sections concerning buses arrival/departure time and routes make the guide appear not in a fine shape. Eat section needs to be improved because the eateries name are missing. I don't think its upto star quality article. Either needs to fixed or speedy downgraded to guide.--Saqib (talk) 20:27, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Downgrade I agree with ChubbyWimbus, the listings should at least have map markers, and preferably Wikidata/Wikipedia links as well. Climate section needs work, as does the Drink section. Almost no significant improvements have been made to the article over the course of the last year, so it seems a consensus for downgrade has been reached. ArticCynda (talk) 21:27, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Number of See points of interest have no directions or location information. Number of Eat and both Drink listings are old entries that cannot be confirm as still in existence. --Traveler100 (talk) 06:39, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Removing See listing that do exist, just not exact details, sounds wrong to me. But removing restaurants and hotels that cannot prove still in business is probably a good idea. --Traveler100 (talk) 16:38, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it probably varies by case. There's a listing for "Madrevieja del Carmen", which is apparently a riverbed with some significance. But I can't find it on Google Maps, and therefore I'm not sure how we can be expected to get any information about the location of the place? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:43, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The article says "located in a farm that is embraced in agroecological experiments, restoration of native forest and aimed to educate peasants in new forms of production [...] 17km from downtown [...] By contacting Jardín Botánico it is possible to book a night [...]". An experimental and educational facility probably is described in research papers and the like, and the Jardín Botánico has a working web page. It should not be too complicated to simply ask. --LPfi (talk) 17:30, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 16:11, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Done
De Haan, Vosseslag, which is the access point to the 1 Kijkuit, the third and final of the Duinbossen around De Haan en Wenduine." I've just added some context to the equally-mystifying Noordzeebad listing.
